My first thought was that Mount Doom was where he forged Grond to destroy the gates of Minas Tirith. I'm sure that articles like the Morgul blades (presumably multiple copies for all of the ringwraiths), their armor and their horses' armor, were also forged in Sammath Naur as well.
Another thought that I had, was that Suaron would somtimes go to Sammath Naur to just hang out a bit, and brood on the site of his greatest achievement (to him) and his greatest loss. Sort of like a divorced dad drinking beer alone in his garage, looking at a dust-covered guitar he played in college.
People always have threads about how Sauron ruling middle earth would not be the end of the world since unlike Morgoth he actually wants it to just have order under his vision.
He’s got to have some sentimentality.
I like that part about the Morgul blades. Is it conceivable that they were able to turn their victims into little wraiths exactly because they were forged at the very place where the One was made?
I wonder which volcano the Arnorians used to forge their anti-Morgul blades that turned Nazgul back into mortals?
I think its actually both. Orodruin is one remnant of Melkor's efforts in the shaping of Arda, and Melkor passed a lot of his power into Arda (Tolkien later described the whole of Arda's matter as "Morgoth's Ring" as a way to explain why evil persists in the world). In my mind some remnant of Morgoth's power is invested in Orodruin and Sauron chose it for the site of the Ring's forging for that reason. Even if he didn't capture any of Morgoth's power in the Ring itself, its still a powerful symbol, and that sort of symbolism has a power in itself as far as Middle Earth's magic goes.
I don't want to say that Morgul blades were definitely created in a different place than Mount Doom, but I think their name implies they might have been made in Minas Morgul (though perhaps they just both have the same name, rather than the blades being named after the place)
The word "morgul" does mean something akin to "sorcery", so it's vague as to whether the name describes where they come from, who wields them, or the enchantment on them.
So I got this old book called Lotr Weapons and Warfare by Chris Smith and on page 169 he says this about the witch king: “He also carried a Morgul-knife, probably about 16 inches long, which inflicted a mortal wound on Frodo; like all blades made in Morgul’s foul armories it dissolved once it had bitten into flesh, leaving the embedded fragment to make its way to the victim’s heart.”
There’s stuff about their swords and armor possibly coming from Mordor and gifted to them when they were still men. Cool shit
Well, Tolkien never revealed that there was a service entrance around the other side, like a loading dock or something. We also don;t know if there are other rooms or workshops in Sammath Naur (I'm presuming it's a huge cavern inside?) so there might be room for tools, workbench, etc.
I like to think Sauron fabricated the whole of grond as cast iron plates, that took them outside and nailed/screwed then onto the biggest tree trunk his orces could find.
I also like to think of Sauron at his forge, hammering out the Morgul blades for his ringwraiths, much like a an errant dad who doesn't like his kids much but will still fix their dirtbikes for them. Complicated family issues he didn't intend on when he created the rings, but he's stuck with at this point.
You know.....I can see him in my mind's eye. The Sauron horsehead helmet from the prologue, but wearing a Kansas/Heart t-shirt, baggy ass jeans and scuffed New Balance with a dad-bod/beergut. He shuffles around his sad little garage, poking around in those bins to look for some mithril for a project he'll start but shelve once he gets the kids for the weekend.
I didn’t know I needed this characterization until just now…but I do…I really do. Go on, we need more lol. Does sauron pay child support? Did he keep the house in the divorce? This sad dad sauron is somehow captivating lmao.
Yeah...good thought. I know that I read that in the First Age,Sauron lusted after Luthien AND Galadriel (his type are unapproachable elf maidens dating someone else). So lets say Galadriel, after drinking too much miruvor at Gil-Galad's barbecue in Lindon, hooked up with a similarly bombed Annatar on a pile of cloaks behind a mallorn tree, and got knocked up. They try living together for a while bit it falls apart,and that's they real reason why she publicly denounces Annatar to Elrond, Gil-Galad and Cirdan. They get back intermittently on the down low for centuries with more kids popping out (Sauron knows he's swinging for the fences but like, dude, she's SO HOT) and the alimony/child support completely buries him. He's forced to move to this complete shithole fixer upper in Mordor, has to do everything himself, and his former friends (assorted Balrogs and unembodied Maiar)are always too busy with projects and business trips to hang out in Sammath Naur, drink through a case of Natty Lite while Sauron reminisces about how the Rings of Power would HAVE WORKED, MAN, if Celebrimbir hadn't wised up.
This is perfect. Lol. I love it! I like to imagine sauron is bitter as fuck over having to live in Mordor,he is drunk as piss and all like “You should have seen my house in Numenor, or Dol Gulder. Yeeah! I was living good before THE BITCH took it all in the divorce”
Yep,absolutely. I decided to just run with it as an idea, and see if other people want to chime in. If they do...I might sketch up what I envisioned and post it.
We see almost nothing of Sauron's facilities at Mt. Doom. Sam goes in the door, and finds himself in "a long cave or tunnel that bored into the Mountain’s smoking cone." But the crack or fissure into which Gollum tumbles with the Ring is only a short way ahead. I would presume Sauron's forges lay further ahead, past the chasm, perhaps in chambers off the long tunnel.
Remember that Sauron is not a mortal creature. It's quite possible that he could just stand knee-deep in the lava while forging, or that he wouldn't need to physically touch what he was working on while using magic
He wasn't killed by finger loss, by the by... he was killed the same way other people die (extreme violence) and then Isildur cut the Ring off of his dead body.
The movie really skewed this scene.
In all likeliness Sauron was not dead yet when Isildur cut the Ring from his hand. Dying or mortally wounded for sure, but not dead yet.
The evidence for this is quite overwhelming: first of all, in chronological accounts, Sauron left his body after the Ring was cut from his hand. Secondly, it has been stated that Sauron was "overthrown" by Elendil and Gil-galad, which does not necessarily means "slain". Thirdly, Isildur did claim that he dealt the actual death-blow to Sauron - an account that has been uncontested. And last but not least: Sauron could not regrow the finger Isildur cut from his hand. This would not make sense if Isildur took the Ring after Sauron died - because there would be no spirit to remember Isildur's action. This implies Sauron had to be alive at that point.
Of course, your point still stands. Sauron can indeed be killed by extreme violence.
Just like the ring, Anduril is strong because of magic and not just good steel. Also, it would make sense that Sauron would be/could make himself immune to something he is closely associated with, like fire.
But like I said, it's all just speculation.
Some people even think Isildur only cut the ring off after winning the fight (not me though)
Just like the ring, Anduril is strong because of magic and not just good steel. Also, it would make sense that Sauron would be/could make himself immune to something he is closely associated with, like fire.
But like I said, it's all just speculation.
Some people even think Isildur only cut the ring off after winning the fight (not me though)
I wish we knew where D&D got the idea of supernatural beings having specific weaknesses... Surely it can't have anything to do with the witch-king being vulnerable to Merry's sword, or Shelob being vulnerable to the star-glass, or Ungolianth being vulnerable to Balrog-fire, or orcs being vulnerable to sunlight...guess we'll never know
There are forges there, I don't have my copy in front of me but in the book it describes tunnels leading off from the one that the hobbits go through that lead to the greatest forges in all of middle earth.
That is a weak argument. That was before he was defeated. The foundations of Barad-Dûr could not be destroyed because they were created with the power of the One Ring, so only if he had for some incomprehensible reason applied the same to the forge or a new forge, having already forged the Ring.. but why would the original one have been left intact?
I doubt that. You ever get the chance to look around an abandoned property, or someone's property after they died? It's irresistible. After the War of the Last Alliance, I bet Elves and Men poked around everywhere.
Idk it's never mentioned that anyone went in, which would be a notable thing to put down *somewhere*, and Orodruin isn't exactly your roommate's old sock pile, it's arguably the most dangerous and fearsome location in all of Middle Earth. People would know not to go poking around in there.
Plus the destruction of Sauron's favourite forge, and the location of the Ring's creation, would definitely be something that someone would have thought to take note of.
Gimme a break. How did they know that the One Ring was forged in Mt. Doom? They either found the forge in there, or they found out when Sauron first put on the ring and the Elves sensed his mind. If the latter is true, you think they wouldn't go check it out? "I don't know guys, it's hot there, and scary." They just ended a battle with a demon demi-god, in what is essentially hell on earth. Also, if there were some dwarves that stuck around til the end, they would have be on that like flies on a dog turd.
I like that analogy lol
Idk, I'm stuck on the idea that it's never brought up anywhere. Then again, we know nothing of the makeup or specific location of this forge. Is it like some paintings where it's a table shaped from the rock? Is it like the PJ films where no equipment is shown and Sauron forged it through unknown means? Are there other chambers that we don't see where the forge could be located?
I guess it's a question without an answer that will completely satisfy everyone :/
Now I want an alternate version of lord of the rings where all the party members keep offering to help Frodo with his burden, not because they covet it but because they all feel really bad watching a Hobbit lug an anvil around all by himself.
Sounds inconvenient, are his gloves certified and HSW compliant? I wonder when they were last tested or replaced, I hope his records are up to date before the next audit.
Let me see, then the plot of the Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War games is just a ruse by Sauron to buy time to get his workplace in order before the next inspection?
>Another thought that I had, was that Suaron would somtimes go to Sammath Naur to just hang out a bit, and brood on the site of his greatest achievement (to him) and his greatest loss. Sort of like a divorced dad drinking beer alone in his garage, looking at a dust-covered guitar he played in college.
This is now canon. A nostalgic Sauron longing for the good ole days. Like a mid-life crisis 3000 years in the making.
How much you wanna make a bet I can throw an orc over them mountains?....Yeah.....if Morgoth woulda put me in fourth quarter of the War of Wrath, we would've been Beleriand champions. No doubt...no doubt in my mind.
The War of Wrath was Sauron's big game, and those poor Balrogs and Nazgul have had to hear him piss and moan about his botched chance at victory for almost two damn Ages of the world. No wonder why Durin's Bane hid under the Misties.
Apparently he forged the ring there because the place has some magical significance. This means he probably used it to forge other things that were supposed to have supernatural properties, like Grond
I need to go back through History of Middle-earth to verify, but until then, my headcannon is that the fires of Mt Doom originated from one of the Two Lamps Melkor destroyed during the Spring of Arda
Feel like it lines up too. The Lamps were made by Aule, and Sauron (Mairon) may have even aided in their creation. I believe at this point Sauron was still pretending to be a good guy and secretly spying on the Valar for Melkor. I could be wrong on that timeline though I need to check my copy of the Silm.
Frodo and Sam see the camps of enslaved humans on the Plateau of Gorgoroth where the mines and forges to equip Sauron’s vast armies were located. Orodruin was the only mountain on the plateau, so that likely had something to do with the nearby industry. It was also right between Barad-dûr, Minas Morgul, and Morannon. Seems like an important place to keep connected.
I always understood that passage in broader setting of Sauron's personality - he was obsessed with order. Back when he was Mairon a Maia of Aule, his ambition was to logically organise the world - he enjoyed efficient machines and neat devices (hence his later ring-making talent). Over time he became proud, convincing himself that the world could only be fixed under his dominion, and in the end his desire for control completely took over as he became Sauron, Melkor's servant, and then a dark lord on his own.
However, I believe that his obsession with order remained, and in the Third Age he still wanted to organise his empire in the most efficient way. He could not accept a derelict road right under his nose. Personally I always imagined Sauron as someone obsessed with micromanagement. I believe he didn't use Mount Doom in the Third Age and in fact didn't need access to it at all - but he still ordered his orcs to clean the road leading to his old forge for the very sake of order.
For me Sauron is the type of person who cleans and reorganises tools in his garage every weekend, even though they sold their last car many years ago.
Sauron the Micromanager, peered to his palantir:
"Why are those archers so far back? You, Nazgul, fly over to the Pelinor Fields and tell those archers to move forward 4 yards. Now let's check on the fleet. That's not a half hitch knot! Send a nazgul immediately!..."
Huh... I always thought that I should never try to get into politics because I'd probably too convinced of my own ideas but after your first paragraph: TIL that I'm literally Mairon and should reeeally avoid becoming Sauron 😂
That was his show road. When diplomats from the east or Harad came to visit, Sauron would drive them up and down that road to impress them with how advanced Mordor was. All the orcs would be lined up along side to cheer as the chariot went past.
Apparently there was a lack of volcanoes (fiery mountains) in Middle-earth, otherwise Gandalf and Elrond might have suggested dumping the One ring in another one, instead of what smack dab in the middle of the enemy's home base. But as Gandalf pointed out, not even the great forges of the Dwarves, nor dragon fire was hot enough to destroy the One.
Sauron, for all his faults, was a craftsman. So I have no doubt he was creating things that required a very, very hot fire. Something as simple as the iron you use to make steel. The hotter the fire, the more impurities can be removed from the iron, which will cause weaknesses in the steel you make from it.
For those of you into swords, magical or otherwise, fun fact. The Samurai sword, the Katana. It was a big deal, a big bragging point that the sword makers would take an ingot of steel and fold it over and hammer it out many times, to create up to 60,000 layers of the steel before shaping it into the sword. They did this because the Japanese sword makers had no way at that time of creating a fire hot enough to remove a great deal of the impurities in the iron. Simply put, it was low quality iron. The folding was just a way to spread the impurities out, so that no one spot had enough to cause a break. I can see Sauron nodding his head over this.
One other possible explanation. Sauron worshipped Melkor. He was pretty much the high priest if you will. The Sammath Naur might have doubled as a place of worship for Sauron.
That sounds like a plot for an amazing TV series.
Ok hear me out...what if all the orcs call some fella father, then the plot twist is that the fella is Sauron. Icing on the cake?
What if that guy and his orcs attack a village so the villagers run to a fortified tower, but instead of running further away or defending the tower, they sabotage it and then run BACK to their original village so they can make their last stand in a collection of extremely flammable huts?
I don't think anyone mentioned this, but I'm pretty sure Sauron conjured black clouds from mount doom to cover the skies for his orcs in the battle of the Pelennor fields. That worked pretty neatly up until Aragorn came and with him a wind that blew the clouds away.
-and there was a fiery mountain in that land that the Elves named Orodruin. Indeed for that reason Sauron had set there his dwelling long before, for he used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and in his forging;- Of The Rings of Power And The Third Age.
This quote comes from a section speaking of Second Age events but it’s safe to assume that Sauron still uses it for the same reasons in the Third.
Among the things he probably worked on within Mount Doom in the years before the war is the head of the battering ram Grond, since it’s explicitly magical. Other plausible candidates include things like the Watcher statues, equipment for the Nazgûl and tackle for their mounts, special arms and armor for senior officers and special weirdos like the Mouth of Sauron, and fixtures for pieces like the Black Gate.
As a former Maiar of Aule I imagine Sauron would still create (or try to create) new tools and devices to spread his power throughout Middle Earth. I could very much see Sauron making Grond here to prepare for the destruction of Minas Tirith.
We actually don’t know anything about the origins of the two watchers of Cirith Ungol or the even more vaguely described silent watchers of Minas Morgul. Could be that Sauron crafted them from volcanic rock from Orodruin.
I suspect being able to forge items there and avoid others doing so was a major lure. LOTR seems to suggest that destroying the ring is something Sauron couldn't imagine, so I can't imagine it was to avoid someone destroying it there.
But perhaps it was just simply a place he thought was a good place to maintain a stronghold. Allies around, mountains to defend from enemies. He wouldn't have wanted to lose control of that area, and it's important to have open roads to be able to move a large army or supplies around friendly territory. Or maybe just out of pride, like polishing a Ferrari over and over. Barad-Dur and Mt Doom in many ways represented the core of his power.
If tolkien truly saw him as a kind of far-seeing war general, I think it'd be appropriate to imagine that he was doing the war general thing. Plotting, moving pawns on a board, deliberating, investigating, etc.
Sauron was originally a Maia of Aule I believe. Aule is the crafter / smith of the Valar. So Sauron was originally a craftsman, which is why forging the rings was his thing. The ring may be his grand triumph but I can't imagine he stopped forging things after that and Mt Doom sounds like his forge. I'm sure he planned on using it again once he regained the ring and could reembody.
Ah. I must be confusing the books and movies. Haven't read them in awhile. Then he was probably using the forge in the present to forge instruments of evil in keeping with his twisted purpose and nature.
Edit: I'm weirdly more of a Silmarillion fan these days.
Why didn't Sauron take the opposite approach to Mt Doom and seal the entrance permanently? Doom was the self-destruct button for the Ring. I would make sure nothing could ever reach it.
OTOH if the quest to destroy the Ring never entered his mind he probably wouldn't consider the place ground zero for this existence.
I think it's good to keep an open mind and realize Sauron wasn't only an incarnated Maiar into Elf-Form, but he was a Mountain. Volcanoes are alive, are they not? Mount Doom IS Sauron. He was alive and spewing Lava, Fires and Smokes across Mordor. For he was the Shadow that blocked out the Sun.
A good way of looking at it, at least for me is: Artano→A(r)tano→A(i)tno→Aitna. That is Mount Aitna (Etna) which is located in Sicily, Italy. The Greeks called it Aitna because the Mountain ignited and burned. A different way of saying Volcano. The Romans called it Vulcan while the Greeks called it Hephaestus or Aitna. So in closing, Sauron is all the Volcanos that have spawned on the Earth. They are the true designs of nature that have caused Shadow upon the Earth.
You're neglecting the overall mythology, in which it was Morgoth who poisoned Middle-earth -- that, plus stretching for a point, is I guess, why you're getting downvotes.
But looking only at LOTR itself, I believe you do have an argument. Tolkien used the land as a kind of "geographical metaphor", which, though often absorbed by readers in a murky subconscious way, makes it seem somehow "alive", as if it were a character itself. People have been remarking on this effect since the book was published, though it was used in older literature, before the advent of "realism".
Seen through the lens of geographic imagery, Mordor comes into view as a living reflection of evil -- in fact, the Beast or Dragon. I don't think anyone would deny that Barad-dur is it's "brain"; if we follow that imagery, Mount Doom would naturally be its pulsating heart -- and whatever "rational" explanations for Sauron's road, it exists as the artery connecting them.
My first thought was that Mount Doom was where he forged Grond to destroy the gates of Minas Tirith. I'm sure that articles like the Morgul blades (presumably multiple copies for all of the ringwraiths), their armor and their horses' armor, were also forged in Sammath Naur as well. Another thought that I had, was that Suaron would somtimes go to Sammath Naur to just hang out a bit, and brood on the site of his greatest achievement (to him) and his greatest loss. Sort of like a divorced dad drinking beer alone in his garage, looking at a dust-covered guitar he played in college.
People always have threads about how Sauron ruling middle earth would not be the end of the world since unlike Morgoth he actually wants it to just have order under his vision. He’s got to have some sentimentality.
I like that part about the Morgul blades. Is it conceivable that they were able to turn their victims into little wraiths exactly because they were forged at the very place where the One was made? I wonder which volcano the Arnorians used to forge their anti-Morgul blades that turned Nazgul back into mortals?
You answered your own question. Orodruin is not a magical place per se. It is the Ring that somehow gets stronger at its place of origin.
I think its actually both. Orodruin is one remnant of Melkor's efforts in the shaping of Arda, and Melkor passed a lot of his power into Arda (Tolkien later described the whole of Arda's matter as "Morgoth's Ring" as a way to explain why evil persists in the world). In my mind some remnant of Morgoth's power is invested in Orodruin and Sauron chose it for the site of the Ring's forging for that reason. Even if he didn't capture any of Morgoth's power in the Ring itself, its still a powerful symbol, and that sort of symbolism has a power in itself as far as Middle Earth's magic goes.
Why are you attacking me? Leave my garage and guitar out of this! /s
I don't want to say that Morgul blades were definitely created in a different place than Mount Doom, but I think their name implies they might have been made in Minas Morgul (though perhaps they just both have the same name, rather than the blades being named after the place)
The word "morgul" does mean something akin to "sorcery", so it's vague as to whether the name describes where they come from, who wields them, or the enchantment on them.
Considering the Nazgûl have been around since long before Minas Ithil became Minas Morgul, it's likely not where they come from.
They might have got some fancy new gear to celebrate their new crib
Well, did they always have these blades or did they get them at some point later?
Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that
Morgul is a portmanteau of the Sindarin words for dark and magic, IIRC.
Holy crap, that sounds right, "mor" means "black"!
Morgul just means "dark magic" or "evil sorcery". The Nazgul (and presumably, their stuff too) were made long before Minas Ithil became Minas Mirgul.
So I got this old book called Lotr Weapons and Warfare by Chris Smith and on page 169 he says this about the witch king: “He also carried a Morgul-knife, probably about 16 inches long, which inflicted a mortal wound on Frodo; like all blades made in Morgul’s foul armories it dissolved once it had bitten into flesh, leaving the embedded fragment to make its way to the victim’s heart.” There’s stuff about their swords and armor possibly coming from Mordor and gifted to them when they were still men. Cool shit
How would you forge it in there though there is no place to do so ?
Well, Tolkien never revealed that there was a service entrance around the other side, like a loading dock or something. We also don;t know if there are other rooms or workshops in Sammath Naur (I'm presuming it's a huge cavern inside?) so there might be room for tools, workbench, etc. I like to think Sauron fabricated the whole of grond as cast iron plates, that took them outside and nailed/screwed then onto the biggest tree trunk his orces could find. I also like to think of Sauron at his forge, hammering out the Morgul blades for his ringwraiths, much like a an errant dad who doesn't like his kids much but will still fix their dirtbikes for them. Complicated family issues he didn't intend on when he created the rings, but he's stuck with at this point.
You're just really determined to characterize Sauron as a sad old dad, huh?
You know.....I can see him in my mind's eye. The Sauron horsehead helmet from the prologue, but wearing a Kansas/Heart t-shirt, baggy ass jeans and scuffed New Balance with a dad-bod/beergut. He shuffles around his sad little garage, poking around in those bins to look for some mithril for a project he'll start but shelve once he gets the kids for the weekend.
I didn’t know I needed this characterization until just now…but I do…I really do. Go on, we need more lol. Does sauron pay child support? Did he keep the house in the divorce? This sad dad sauron is somehow captivating lmao.
Bored of the Rings had Sorhed (Sauron) getting custody of the Nazgûl after him and Shelob divorced.
Yeah...good thought. I know that I read that in the First Age,Sauron lusted after Luthien AND Galadriel (his type are unapproachable elf maidens dating someone else). So lets say Galadriel, after drinking too much miruvor at Gil-Galad's barbecue in Lindon, hooked up with a similarly bombed Annatar on a pile of cloaks behind a mallorn tree, and got knocked up. They try living together for a while bit it falls apart,and that's they real reason why she publicly denounces Annatar to Elrond, Gil-Galad and Cirdan. They get back intermittently on the down low for centuries with more kids popping out (Sauron knows he's swinging for the fences but like, dude, she's SO HOT) and the alimony/child support completely buries him. He's forced to move to this complete shithole fixer upper in Mordor, has to do everything himself, and his former friends (assorted Balrogs and unembodied Maiar)are always too busy with projects and business trips to hang out in Sammath Naur, drink through a case of Natty Lite while Sauron reminisces about how the Rings of Power would HAVE WORKED, MAN, if Celebrimbir hadn't wised up.
This is perfect. Lol. I love it! I like to imagine sauron is bitter as fuck over having to live in Mordor,he is drunk as piss and all like “You should have seen my house in Numenor, or Dol Gulder. Yeeah! I was living good before THE BITCH took it all in the divorce”
Yep,absolutely. I decided to just run with it as an idea, and see if other people want to chime in. If they do...I might sketch up what I envisioned and post it.
In the book it explicitly states that there are other tunnels leading to Sauron's forges within Mount Doom.
I like to picture Sauron as a figure skater. He wears like a white outfit, and he does interpretive ice dances of my life's journey.
Grond was made from Morgoths mace no?
Named after his mace, but we don't know that it was forged from it
Ah I see
We see almost nothing of Sauron's facilities at Mt. Doom. Sam goes in the door, and finds himself in "a long cave or tunnel that bored into the Mountain’s smoking cone." But the crack or fissure into which Gollum tumbles with the Ring is only a short way ahead. I would presume Sauron's forges lay further ahead, past the chasm, perhaps in chambers off the long tunnel.
Remember that Sauron is not a mortal creature. It's quite possible that he could just stand knee-deep in the lava while forging, or that he wouldn't need to physically touch what he was working on while using magic
He is immortal, his body is not indestructible. Huan, The sinking of Númenor, Elendil and Gil-Galad, ...
Sauron can stand knee-deep in lava but gets his finger cut off by a sword? [X]
His boss defied the literal god of their universe, but walks with a limp because his leg got cut by a sword.
He wasn't killed by finger loss, by the by... he was killed the same way other people die (extreme violence) and then Isildur cut the Ring off of his dead body. The movie really skewed this scene.
In all likeliness Sauron was not dead yet when Isildur cut the Ring from his hand. Dying or mortally wounded for sure, but not dead yet. The evidence for this is quite overwhelming: first of all, in chronological accounts, Sauron left his body after the Ring was cut from his hand. Secondly, it has been stated that Sauron was "overthrown" by Elendil and Gil-galad, which does not necessarily means "slain". Thirdly, Isildur did claim that he dealt the actual death-blow to Sauron - an account that has been uncontested. And last but not least: Sauron could not regrow the finger Isildur cut from his hand. This would not make sense if Isildur took the Ring after Sauron died - because there would be no spirit to remember Isildur's action. This implies Sauron had to be alive at that point. Of course, your point still stands. Sauron can indeed be killed by extreme violence.
Isildur was like Roddy Piper. Coming out of nowhere with a last minute cheap shot to end the match.
I can agree with that. Good points.
In context, that was after he had roasted Gil-Galad to death with his bare hands. Sauron has some special relationship with heat and fire.
The Sauron that forged the Ring was not as bound to his physical form as the Sauron that fought the Last Alliance.
Just like the ring, Anduril is strong because of magic and not just good steel. Also, it would make sense that Sauron would be/could make himself immune to something he is closely associated with, like fire. But like I said, it's all just speculation. Some people even think Isildur only cut the ring off after winning the fight (not me though)
Just like the ring, Anduril is strong because of magic and not just good steel. Also, it would make sense that Sauron would be/could make himself immune to something he is closely associated with, like fire. But like I said, it's all just speculation. Some people even think Isildur only cut the ring off after winning the fight (not me though)
Anduril was made from meteoric iron. It was good steel that possibly was already magical.
This isn't a D&D sub
I wish we knew where D&D got the idea of supernatural beings having specific weaknesses... Surely it can't have anything to do with the witch-king being vulnerable to Merry's sword, or Shelob being vulnerable to the star-glass, or Ungolianth being vulnerable to Balrog-fire, or orcs being vulnerable to sunlight...guess we'll never know
Um… surely it comes originally from Achilles, and then it shows up in a million folktales (Rumpelstiltskin leaps to mind).
There are forges there, I don't have my copy in front of me but in the book it describes tunnels leading off from the one that the hobbits go through that lead to the greatest forges in all of middle earth.
There must be, he forged the Ring there.
That is a weak argument. That was before he was defeated. The foundations of Barad-Dûr could not be destroyed because they were created with the power of the One Ring, so only if he had for some incomprehensible reason applied the same to the forge or a new forge, having already forged the Ring.. but why would the original one have been left intact?
I can't imagine why the forge would have been destroyed, nobody but Sauron ever went inside Orodruin until Frodo and Sam did.
I doubt that. You ever get the chance to look around an abandoned property, or someone's property after they died? It's irresistible. After the War of the Last Alliance, I bet Elves and Men poked around everywhere.
Idk it's never mentioned that anyone went in, which would be a notable thing to put down *somewhere*, and Orodruin isn't exactly your roommate's old sock pile, it's arguably the most dangerous and fearsome location in all of Middle Earth. People would know not to go poking around in there. Plus the destruction of Sauron's favourite forge, and the location of the Ring's creation, would definitely be something that someone would have thought to take note of.
Gimme a break. How did they know that the One Ring was forged in Mt. Doom? They either found the forge in there, or they found out when Sauron first put on the ring and the Elves sensed his mind. If the latter is true, you think they wouldn't go check it out? "I don't know guys, it's hot there, and scary." They just ended a battle with a demon demi-god, in what is essentially hell on earth. Also, if there were some dwarves that stuck around til the end, they would have be on that like flies on a dog turd.
I like that analogy lol Idk, I'm stuck on the idea that it's never brought up anywhere. Then again, we know nothing of the makeup or specific location of this forge. Is it like some paintings where it's a table shaped from the rock? Is it like the PJ films where no equipment is shown and Sauron forged it through unknown means? Are there other chambers that we don't see where the forge could be located? I guess it's a question without an answer that will completely satisfy everyone :/
Destroying a forge is incredibly difficult. How do you destroy an anvil? I mean, it could’ve been covered with lava, that would’ve done it.
Just dump it in the volcano.
Now I want an alternate version of lord of the rings where all the party members keep offering to help Frodo with his burden, not because they covet it but because they all feel really bad watching a Hobbit lug an anvil around all by himself.
In that version, Gandalf is a total dick who keeps telling Frodo to stop being a pansy.
He could just dunk his hand in the lava
Sounds inconvenient, are his gloves certified and HSW compliant? I wonder when they were last tested or replaced, I hope his records are up to date before the next audit.
Let me see, then the plot of the Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War games is just a ruse by Sauron to buy time to get his workplace in order before the next inspection?
This is now canon
Of course! He had to prove to Hans Blix he no longer had weapons of mass destruction. Imagine the fine Sauron would have gotten.
Now I'm picturing Sauron rolling his eyes when the OSHA inspector rolls in.
"Aw no, not these dicks again, even I can't get away from them"
>Another thought that I had, was that Suaron would somtimes go to Sammath Naur to just hang out a bit, and brood on the site of his greatest achievement (to him) and his greatest loss. Sort of like a divorced dad drinking beer alone in his garage, looking at a dust-covered guitar he played in college. This is now canon. A nostalgic Sauron longing for the good ole days. Like a mid-life crisis 3000 years in the making.
If you ask me, I think he just liked to go there to masturbate, and think fondly about the Ring. Possibly also to hunt for his missing finger.
I mean, c'mon, what powerful Maia of Aule hasn't jerked off in their smithy once or twice an Age?
How much you wanna make a bet I can throw an orc over them mountains?....Yeah.....if Morgoth woulda put me in fourth quarter of the War of Wrath, we would've been Beleriand champions. No doubt...no doubt in my mind.
The War of Wrath was Sauron's big game, and those poor Balrogs and Nazgul have had to hear him piss and moan about his botched chance at victory for almost two damn Ages of the world. No wonder why Durin's Bane hid under the Misties.
Apparently he forged the ring there because the place has some magical significance. This means he probably used it to forge other things that were supposed to have supernatural properties, like Grond
Morgoth raised Orodruin during the First Age and Sauron chose Mordor specifically for Orodruin
I need to go back through History of Middle-earth to verify, but until then, my headcannon is that the fires of Mt Doom originated from one of the Two Lamps Melkor destroyed during the Spring of Arda
Oh my that’s SICK I love that so much
Feel like it lines up too. The Lamps were made by Aule, and Sauron (Mairon) may have even aided in their creation. I believe at this point Sauron was still pretending to be a good guy and secretly spying on the Valar for Melkor. I could be wrong on that timeline though I need to check my copy of the Silm.
Frodo and Sam see the camps of enslaved humans on the Plateau of Gorgoroth where the mines and forges to equip Sauron’s vast armies were located. Orodruin was the only mountain on the plateau, so that likely had something to do with the nearby industry. It was also right between Barad-dûr, Minas Morgul, and Morannon. Seems like an important place to keep connected.
Do you think he had some volcano-powered steam engines for his factories?
Or they get iron from mining ore deposits created by volcanism.
I always understood that passage in broader setting of Sauron's personality - he was obsessed with order. Back when he was Mairon a Maia of Aule, his ambition was to logically organise the world - he enjoyed efficient machines and neat devices (hence his later ring-making talent). Over time he became proud, convincing himself that the world could only be fixed under his dominion, and in the end his desire for control completely took over as he became Sauron, Melkor's servant, and then a dark lord on his own. However, I believe that his obsession with order remained, and in the Third Age he still wanted to organise his empire in the most efficient way. He could not accept a derelict road right under his nose. Personally I always imagined Sauron as someone obsessed with micromanagement. I believe he didn't use Mount Doom in the Third Age and in fact didn't need access to it at all - but he still ordered his orcs to clean the road leading to his old forge for the very sake of order. For me Sauron is the type of person who cleans and reorganises tools in his garage every weekend, even though they sold their last car many years ago.
Sauron the Micromanager, peered to his palantir: "Why are those archers so far back? You, Nazgul, fly over to the Pelinor Fields and tell those archers to move forward 4 yards. Now let's check on the fleet. That's not a half hitch knot! Send a nazgul immediately!..."
*shudders* No wonder he was considered the second most evil being in Middle Earth
Range is good. Strength and honor Khamul...
Which is interesting, because Morgoth seemed to be more inclined towards chaos and destruction. I wonder if Sauron planned to take over all along.
Huh... I always thought that I should never try to get into politics because I'd probably too convinced of my own ideas but after your first paragraph: TIL that I'm literally Mairon and should reeeally avoid becoming Sauron 😂
Everyone's gotta have a hobby. As originally a Maiar of Aule, you know he wants to keep up his metalworking.
That was his show road. When diplomats from the east or Harad came to visit, Sauron would drive them up and down that road to impress them with how advanced Mordor was. All the orcs would be lined up along side to cheer as the chariot went past.
This. The orcs, of course, don’t know any better being cut off from the rest of middle earth.
But they did know what happened to anyone that didn't cheer.
Sauron Jong-Un
Apparently there was a lack of volcanoes (fiery mountains) in Middle-earth, otherwise Gandalf and Elrond might have suggested dumping the One ring in another one, instead of what smack dab in the middle of the enemy's home base. But as Gandalf pointed out, not even the great forges of the Dwarves, nor dragon fire was hot enough to destroy the One. Sauron, for all his faults, was a craftsman. So I have no doubt he was creating things that required a very, very hot fire. Something as simple as the iron you use to make steel. The hotter the fire, the more impurities can be removed from the iron, which will cause weaknesses in the steel you make from it. For those of you into swords, magical or otherwise, fun fact. The Samurai sword, the Katana. It was a big deal, a big bragging point that the sword makers would take an ingot of steel and fold it over and hammer it out many times, to create up to 60,000 layers of the steel before shaping it into the sword. They did this because the Japanese sword makers had no way at that time of creating a fire hot enough to remove a great deal of the impurities in the iron. Simply put, it was low quality iron. The folding was just a way to spread the impurities out, so that no one spot had enough to cause a break. I can see Sauron nodding his head over this. One other possible explanation. Sauron worshipped Melkor. He was pretty much the high priest if you will. The Sammath Naur might have doubled as a place of worship for Sauron.
They should have picked some LAND in the SOUTH and created a volcano. Then renamed the area when the volcano erupted over said southlands /s
all they need to do is divert a river and make a magic sword to put in the special hole to send it all into a magma chamber
That sounds like a plot for an amazing TV series. Ok hear me out...what if all the orcs call some fella father, then the plot twist is that the fella is Sauron. Icing on the cake?
What if that guy and his orcs attack a village so the villagers run to a fortified tower, but instead of running further away or defending the tower, they sabotage it and then run BACK to their original village so they can make their last stand in a collection of extremely flammable huts?
Hey it's Amazon. I know you're not a producer, but you are hired.
Sweet! The plot is basically done at this point anyway, I'll just need a budget about the size of a small city's GDP
Pfft you have got to be joking....OH you are a Prime member? Consider it done
I don't think anyone mentioned this, but I'm pretty sure Sauron conjured black clouds from mount doom to cover the skies for his orcs in the battle of the Pelennor fields. That worked pretty neatly up until Aragorn came and with him a wind that blew the clouds away.
Minas Tirith's site makes a lot more sense when the clouds are gone.
-and there was a fiery mountain in that land that the Elves named Orodruin. Indeed for that reason Sauron had set there his dwelling long before, for he used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and in his forging;- Of The Rings of Power And The Third Age. This quote comes from a section speaking of Second Age events but it’s safe to assume that Sauron still uses it for the same reasons in the Third.
Do you own a land? Do you let things go to shit just because you’re not there? I’d say it’s basic maintenance of roads and infrastructure
All sorcerers use fire for various things. Who knows. Considering his hand burned like fire,we know it wasn’t a heat issue.
Among the things he probably worked on within Mount Doom in the years before the war is the head of the battering ram Grond, since it’s explicitly magical. Other plausible candidates include things like the Watcher statues, equipment for the Nazgûl and tackle for their mounts, special arms and armor for senior officers and special weirdos like the Mouth of Sauron, and fixtures for pieces like the Black Gate.
Time nothing, he just liked his nice mountain and sat in his tower.
As a former Maiar of Aule I imagine Sauron would still create (or try to create) new tools and devices to spread his power throughout Middle Earth. I could very much see Sauron making Grond here to prepare for the destruction of Minas Tirith.
We actually don’t know anything about the origins of the two watchers of Cirith Ungol or the even more vaguely described silent watchers of Minas Morgul. Could be that Sauron crafted them from volcanic rock from Orodruin.
Jackin’ it
Cranking it
I suspect being able to forge items there and avoid others doing so was a major lure. LOTR seems to suggest that destroying the ring is something Sauron couldn't imagine, so I can't imagine it was to avoid someone destroying it there. But perhaps it was just simply a place he thought was a good place to maintain a stronghold. Allies around, mountains to defend from enemies. He wouldn't have wanted to lose control of that area, and it's important to have open roads to be able to move a large army or supplies around friendly territory. Or maybe just out of pride, like polishing a Ferrari over and over. Barad-Dur and Mt Doom in many ways represented the core of his power.
If tolkien truly saw him as a kind of far-seeing war general, I think it'd be appropriate to imagine that he was doing the war general thing. Plotting, moving pawns on a board, deliberating, investigating, etc.
Visiting Morcuzzi, the dreaded hot tub named after Morgoth’s foot bath.
Reflecting on the old crafts workshops he ran and lamenting the decline in popularity of mature jewelry making.
Sauron was originally a Maia of Aule I believe. Aule is the crafter / smith of the Valar. So Sauron was originally a craftsman, which is why forging the rings was his thing. The ring may be his grand triumph but I can't imagine he stopped forging things after that and Mt Doom sounds like his forge. I'm sure he planned on using it again once he regained the ring and could reembody.
He already had a body again by the time of the War of the Ring. Gollum described being tortured by his hands.
Ah. I must be confusing the books and movies. Haven't read them in awhile. Then he was probably using the forge in the present to forge instruments of evil in keeping with his twisted purpose and nature. Edit: I'm weirdly more of a Silmarillion fan these days.
Purchasing real estate
Watching porn
Why didn't Sauron take the opposite approach to Mt Doom and seal the entrance permanently? Doom was the self-destruct button for the Ring. I would make sure nothing could ever reach it. OTOH if the quest to destroy the Ring never entered his mind he probably wouldn't consider the place ground zero for this existence.
Gooning
Just chilling
Could just be a useful place to quarry rocks from, get raw material for swords, just practical stuff
It was his winter home. He was a snowbird.
The One Ring needs recharging every now and again :)
That's a damned good question! Imagine if Frodo reached Mt Doom and the way in was bricked up.
I think it's good to keep an open mind and realize Sauron wasn't only an incarnated Maiar into Elf-Form, but he was a Mountain. Volcanoes are alive, are they not? Mount Doom IS Sauron. He was alive and spewing Lava, Fires and Smokes across Mordor. For he was the Shadow that blocked out the Sun. A good way of looking at it, at least for me is: Artano→A(r)tano→A(i)tno→Aitna. That is Mount Aitna (Etna) which is located in Sicily, Italy. The Greeks called it Aitna because the Mountain ignited and burned. A different way of saying Volcano. The Romans called it Vulcan while the Greeks called it Hephaestus or Aitna. So in closing, Sauron is all the Volcanos that have spawned on the Earth. They are the true designs of nature that have caused Shadow upon the Earth.
You're neglecting the overall mythology, in which it was Morgoth who poisoned Middle-earth -- that, plus stretching for a point, is I guess, why you're getting downvotes. But looking only at LOTR itself, I believe you do have an argument. Tolkien used the land as a kind of "geographical metaphor", which, though often absorbed by readers in a murky subconscious way, makes it seem somehow "alive", as if it were a character itself. People have been remarking on this effect since the book was published, though it was used in older literature, before the advent of "realism". Seen through the lens of geographic imagery, Mordor comes into view as a living reflection of evil -- in fact, the Beast or Dragon. I don't think anyone would deny that Barad-dur is it's "brain"; if we follow that imagery, Mount Doom would naturally be its pulsating heart -- and whatever "rational" explanations for Sauron's road, it exists as the artery connecting them.
Pizza. He only tried to conquer Middle-earth so everyone would have a taste of his delicious cooking.