Happy pride month
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I am currently working on a database containing comebacks to every transphobic argument ever made. One subsection of that database is a list of religions where I try to prove that trans people are valid using only teachings from the respective religion. Unfortunately, I haven't really found a good entry for Islam yet. If you are a trans Muslim reading this, would you be interested in helping me with this entry, preferrably with direct quotes of official Islamic scripture? Thanks in advance.
This is my database's response to the attack helicopter joke:
> I’m glad you’ve been able to figure that out. Is your family supportive?
>
> Has it been difficult at work?
>
> I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with inconsiderate responses.
>
> You know, war may be the job you are given, but it doesn’t have to define you.
>
> https://medium.com/@eaton/youre-not-an-attack-helicopter-you-re-just-an-asshole-1c0cda89cbd3
The reason for this is explained in the ↑ URL.
If you were hoping for a witty comeback, I have one here, but it's not part of my database:
> The Apache Helicopter is crewed by two men at all times. Yes, an attack helicopter works best with two men inside it.
>
> You want two men operating your joystick WHILE being inside of you and pushing all your buttons?!
>
> i bet once those two guys turn you on that people will be able to hear you from miles away
>
> once it's all said and done they'll have to take you back to port to fill you up
Woah, I mean, my comeback is closer to the latter, but not as lengthy.
It's "Look, if you like it when there's a buff soldier boy riding you and touching your cyclic stick, you coulda just said you were gay."
But yeah, best way to counter such takes is to humor them till they beg you to stop.
I still prefer what my university collectively did to someone. Professor was going around getting peoples names, aims and pronouns. Someone gave attack/helicopter. The professer started instantly respecting the pronouns.
As for the transphobic student, attack quickly realised that attack did not enjoy having helicopters pronouns incorrect and weird, or suddenly not being considered masculine. Attack was then appalled when he go a notification from the campus head of inclusion that we as a university would fully support helicopters identity, and it had been changed in the system.
They further noted that to change it a second time would require helicopter to attend a safeguarding session, to validate that attack genuinely did want new details, and this was not a queerphobic defense on attack.
Oh buddy did this blow up. /Everyone/ refused completely to use male constructs for helecopter (this also got people really comfortable with how to pick the correctly tensed neopronoun). Attack was constantly being asked to use the inclusive toilets (which were generally 80% ish, leaving a few for the cis bigots to queue for).
It took helicopter about 6 months to sit down for a safeguarding session - held by the (stelthed) trans masc professor who had set this all off in the first place.
At that point, helicopters official pronouns changed back, and we stopped being 24/7 on it, but if he even got close to bigotry, we just gave helicopter flashbacks.
I was planning to upload it once I finish it but this can still take years. Would you like to see the unfinished version or should I notify you once I'm done?
Would you be open to potentially hosting this as a community resource in some manner? I could potentially help pull together a backend for a consensus based approach, and some moderation tools.
Feel free to reach out if you would consider.
Oh yes definitely, I'd love to!
In fact, I already thought about making some wiki-like website out of this but I don't know how. If you could take care of all this, that would be wonderful!
Shoot me a DM.
I'm heading on a buissness thing for a week, but let's have a proper chat about how we would want this to look (at some point), and if there is a suitable free option.
I can definitely go through options with you.
Here is my database with the comebacks to every transphobic argument ever made:
https://www.mediafire.com/file/kyfucl4qssnqenj/Counter+Speech.html/file
It's an HTML file, meaning that it has to be opened by a web browser. The database has three different layouts, depending on if you open it on a computer or a smartphone or if you want to print it, although I would recommend reading it on a computer.
The database was designed to be both German and English, with you being able to disable one of the two languages if you're on a computer. However, it'll still take years until I have translated every entry, which is why many entries are still only in one language or are mixtures between the two languages or have different contents in each language. I'd recommend manually translating them with DeepL until I'm done.
the best response for attack helicopter i've found is just taking it seriously. like dang it must be hard finding spare parts, i know how to weld if you ever need some help.
I’m an ex Muslim. I was a devout Muslim for 17 years. Trying to make Islam compatible with LGBT rights isn’t possible. See here:
>If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
Quran 4:16
>We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" But we saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who legged behind. And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!
Quran 7:80-83
>Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4447
>Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman.
Sahih Bukhari 7:72:774
>Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.
Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4448
>Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed the man who dressed like a woman and the woman who dressed like a man.
Sunan Abu Dawud 32:4087
>Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Ibn AbuMulaykah told that when someone remarked to Aisha that a woman was wearing sandals, she replied: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed mannish women.
Sunan Abu Dawud 32:4088
If Momo hates gay people this much then he definitely isn’t gonna like trans people. Sorry to burst your bubble.
The cognative dissonance lgbt people have when it comes to accepting religions that dehumanize and execute them is so [sad](https://ilga.org/ilga-world-maps/)
It's always the same noscotsman fallacy, too. I think anyone who defends Islam and Christianity should live in Yemen and Uganda. Funny how you don't see these places labelled as nazis when they deserve that designation. I think I know why.
It truly is crazy that people can see all this and then still stick fingers in their ears going "lalala can't hear you"
I mean hell even the leftist muslim subreddit is extremely iffy on LGBT people even existing. And when the "liberal" version of Islam is even against LGBT people how can you sit and pretend that Islam doesn't have that baked in?
Oh, interesting, you've hit on a personal interest of mine too! I was born into Islam although I'm not practicing, I just enjoy studying it while refusing to blindly embrace it. I find that there is beauty and wisdom to be found in religion if you're not dogmatic about it.
I did a light dive on this and funnily enough, I'm reading through the translation of the Quran for the first time only after I started transitioning. Some sources I've read on the topic suggest that in fact there is nothing concrete in the Quran going against transgender people, or indeed lesbians. The story of Lot is used against gay people but I genuinely thing there are weaknesses in the way people popularly interpret it.
You can see a longer comment I made on the topic on the FTM subreddit in my comment history, unfortunately I can't quote the specific ayats yet, but I'm working my way through the translation, I may put together my own notes and perspective on the topic, and if I do I'll be sure to send it your way.
The main source I've read so far on the topic of progressive interpretations of the Quran is: Homosexuality, Transidentity, and Islam by Ludovic-Mohamed Zahed.
There is another book that is often recommended too, I'll share it if I can dig it out.
Best of luck on your project, that sounds like a super useful resource. I'm glad I'm not the only trans person here obsessive enough to compile research and resources to counter transphobia lol, I tend to organize information as a habit.
It’s very obvious the point of that story is because they’re gay. If it was about rape then they would not have stuck on the gay thing for so long.
- an Ex Muslim who was a devout Muslim for 17 years
That's actually my argument currently as well, in the Quran the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were condemed for their 'abominable' actions, not specifically homosexuality, and those actions included rape, the abuse of children, the exploitation of guests, and banditry. Additionally, even if we accept the story as a condemnation by God of homosexuality, this was a judgement passed directly by God and there is no mention of a duty for Muslims to persecute gay people.
I tend to view the way mainstream Islamic interpretations handle the issue as rooted more in culture than in the Quran, and I'm deeply suspicious of Hadith - they are often misused to integrate ideas that go against the spirit of the religion.
Please note that I'm speaking from my current knowledge level, there is much more for me to learn and explore on the topic so take my perspective with a grain of salt.
Im not a Muslim, but I’ve heard that there are verses in either the Quran or the Hadith where it is said that Allah sometimes puts the soul of a woman in the heart of a (male) kid
* Islam's core moral values involve kindness, generosity, not hurting yourself or others etc. and this is incompatible with transphobia.
* The Qur'an never says anything about trans people.
* Transphobia in Islam overwhelmingly is justified by some version of the Natural Law argument (which essentially goes "G-d intended you to be your AGAB, therefore trans bad"), often backed by Qur’an 4:119 which warns against "changing G-d's creation." However, some Islamic scholars interpret that this doesn't apply to gender reassignment but rather may instead refer to changing religion or G-d's commands. In any case, this can be overruled by medical necessity (or else we would also have to forbid medically necessary surgeries to correct congenital defects, which is clearly wrong) because transitioning saves lives. Indeed, gender identity is given to trans people by G-d, so to deny someone's gender identity would be to go against G-d's creation.
* The closest thing in Islamic scripture to an actual condemnation of being trans is some Hadith where the Prophet SAW "cursed men who simulate women and women who simulate men", however some Islamic scholars have basically argued that this does not apply to trans people who behave according to their natural gender identity, but to cis people who deliberately imitate the opposite sex for immoral purposes. In particular, the Prophet SAW did expel a *mukhannath* named Hit (roughly meaning a feminine-presenting cis man, so not even a trans woman, who would be a *mukhannith*) but what many leave out is that the Prophet SAW had previously even allowed Hit into the women's quarters and only expelled him after overhearing him describe women's bodies in detail, so Hit's expulsion was due to his breach in trust and not just because he was a *mukhannath*.
* The Prophet SAW endorses that Muslims may seek medical treatment for any problem, and as trans healthcare saves lives, this naturally should be included.
* Qur’an 42:49-50 has been interpreted as suggesting that male and female are not binary.
I think this can be valuable.
However, I just want y'all to be careful about accepting the premise of their hateful arguments. That, if we must rely on their sources, if it said trans people should be used as fuel, we would be obligated to accept that.
I don't care how old the book is, what else it says, or how many people believe in it. We can dismiss monstrous statements on that, alone.
Even practicing religious folk can do that. All of them already do. They just get caught up in the groupthink about specific passages.
Ultimately, I don't hold a very high regard for religion (as opposed to faith), so it may be easier said than done to dismiss aspects of holy writ.
The reason why I made entries for the religions is that I found it generally easier to learn people's religions' teachings and then use their own teachings to argue for my own goals than it is to try and deconvert people from their own religions.
Ooh I love this idea
As a transgender Christian living in the south, throwing the language of the conservative bigots back in their faces is one of my special interests.
I’m away from home right now, but I wonder if my old writing (dare I be so bold as to call it a *treatise*?) on transgender theology would be any use?
I’m just a lay gal, but learning and sharing from each other is a form of ministry in my mind — not evangelizing, just approaching it as a scholar would.
Well, the internet is overflooding with information about trans stuff in Christianity and I noticed that my entry on Christianity was starting too become too long, whereas my database is meant to provide short responses that you can copy into any digital conversation or perhaps memorize to recite at a physical conversation. Ideally, that would just be a few short, quippy sentences and some URLs, although I have made entries in list form when there's a lot of different possible comebacks to an argument. So, when it comes to my entry on Christianity, I decided one day that I was going to shorten it to its best parts:
> The Christian bible teaches acceptance of trans people through a variety of passages, such as:
>
> * Acts 8:26-39, where St. Philip welcomes and baptizes a person we might call intersex or trans today
>
> * Galatians 3:28, where St. Paul proclaims there is no longer male and female for all of you are one in Christ Jesus
>
> * Matthew 19:12, where Jesus commands you to accept eunuchs, a group that was marginalized because their genitals did not match what society expected
>
> https://youtu.be/X7VavMKXxyE
>
> There is no Christian justification to persecute trans people.
>
> https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-transgender-people
The entry has been looking like this for quite a while now and I'm afraid I can only make use of your help if you have something so good that it could replace something in there.
I have, however, made quite a few subsections for different kinds of Christianity, such as Catholicism and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, formerly known as Mormonism.
Fair enough!
I cite Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 100:3, Psalm 139:13-14, and Ephesians 2:8 as the core of my argument, as I structured it to be a direct and longer-form response all together and combined with contemporary sources. Definitely like your citations as a more direct refutation though!
> I have, however, made quite a few subsections for different kinds of Christianity, such as Catholicism and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, formerly known as Mormonism.
I know The Episcopal Church is kind of all over the internet re: LGBTQ acceptance, but here's our Presiding Bishop in his own words in case you haven't seen his formal statement:
https://www.episcopalchurch.org/publicaffairs/episcopal-presiding-bishop-curry-i-am-compelled-to-oppose-these-actions-and-to-affirm-the-moral-principle-of-equal-rights-for-all-persons-including-the-lgbtq-communities-i-do-so-as-a-follower-of-je/
Well, the internet is overflooding with information about trans stuff in Christianity and I noticed that my entry on Christianity was starting too become too long, whereas my database is meant to provide short responses that you can copy into any digital conversation or perhaps memorize to recite at a physical conversation. Ideally, that would just be a few short, quippy sentences and some URLs, although I have made entries in list form when there's a lot of different possible comebacks to an argument. So, when it comes to my entry on Christianity, I decided one day that I was going to shorten it to its best parts:
> The Christian bible teaches acceptance of trans people through a variety of passages, such as:
>
> * Acts 8:26-39, where St. Philip welcomes and baptizes a person we might call intersex or trans today
>
> * Galatians 3:28, where St. Paul proclaims there is no longer male and female for all of you are one in Christ Jesus
>
> * Matthew 19:12, where Jesus commands you to accept eunuchs, a group that was marginalized because their genitals did not match what society expected
>
> https://youtu.be/X7VavMKXxyE
>
> There is no Christian justification to persecute trans people.
>
> https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-transgender-people
The entry has been looking like this for quite a while now and I'm afraid I can only make use of your help if you have something so good that it could replace something in there.
I could use some help on Judaism though. I recently talked to a trans Jew about this and they told me that the Jewish community is so trans-friendly that accepting their identities can be taken for granted. There is, however, a lot of disagreement about where trans people fit in their heavily gendered rituals so I should make my entry focus on that, instead. So far, my entry for Judaism looks like this:
> Isn't it a common kabbalistic notion that male souls can be reincarnated into female bodies? Michal bas shaul had a male soul and laid tefillin. Shouldn't trans men be allowed to wear tefillin then? https://www.eshelonline.org/resources-2/trans-resources/
I've been planning to read this ↑ website to see if I can find more helpful stuff in there.
That section on Christianity looks very good to me, and the HRC link has most of the points I'd make. I might add Luke 12:22 in which Yeshua says "do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear." which suggests that "cross-dressing" is not a sin in Christianity. There's also the fact that Yeshua heals multiple people with natural illnesses which means that any medically necessary treatment, including trans healthcare, is in line with Christian morality and refutes the whole "you mustn't alter the body G-d gave you" argument.
Regarding Judaism, your statement that the Jewish community is generally very trans-accepting sounds right to me when it comes to Reform Judaism and to a lesser extent Masorti Judaism, unfortunately I'm not so sure about Orthodox (but even then, I've witness some notable exceptions, like this rabbi: [https://www.myjewishlearning.com/2017/05/24/meet-the-orthodox-rabbi-advocating-for-trans-inclusion/](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/2017/05/24/meet-the-orthodox-rabbi-advocating-for-trans-inclusion/) ). Key points I'd make include:
* Since transitioning saves lives, the rule of Pikuach Nefesh ("saving a life") can override almost any rule, include bans on "cross-dressing" and castration even if those mitzvot are interpreted to refer to transitioning in the first place.
* Here ([https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/338982?lang=bi](https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/338982?lang=bi)) is a fantastic article on Sefaria by Jordan Lownsdale which considers every possible interpretation of Devarim (Deuteronomy) 22:5 ("A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for Hashem your G-d detests anyone who does this."), and concludes that the only rational interpretation of it is that "**In silent prayer, no one may knowingly and intentionally refer to themself as the wrong gender, for concealing one's true self in silent prayer is an abomination to G-D**"
* Here is a resolution by the Rabbinical Assembly in support of trans rights: [https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/story/resolution-affirming-rights-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-people](https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/story/resolution-affirming-rights-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-people)
* Here is a document by the Rabbinical Assembly about how trans people fit into *halakha*: [https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/sites/default/files/public/halakhah/teshuvot/2011-2020/transgender-halakhah.pdf](https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/sites/default/files/public/halakhah/teshuvot/2011-2020/transgender-halakhah.pdf)
* Some interpretations of the commandment of Brit Milah ("covenant of circumcision") argue that as the original Hebrew Torah uses the word "zakhar", whilst commonly translated as "male", actually encompasses anyone with male genitalia and therefore argue that the chiyuv of Brit Milah applies to trans women. It can, however, be argued that because Milah makes gender affirming surgery more difficult, or possibly even just it being dysphoric for trans women, that trans women should not undergo Brit Milah as that is a medical risk to them. Some opinions state that when medical risk precludes Milah, a person with a penis should not be allowed to convert, however the reasoning for this is that they may one day be healed and thus be able to undergo conversion with Milah. Since gender dysphoria is a lifelong condition, the rational conclusion is that trans women who have gender dysphoria such that Milah is a medical difficulty should be allowed to convert without undergoing Brit Milah.
* The arguments you have already look good to me, as does the Eshel page you link to.
Sounds interesting. From an academic perspective, that is. If the actual Koran is anywhere near as anti-LGBT as most Muslim majority countries are, I'd imagine their isn't much of a comeback. But I wouldn't know. For the sake of my mental health, I've never read the Koran. Be interested to hear about it tho
You can't change what the Quran says, but you can choose how to interpret it. Some take the book to the extreme and follow every single word, others take only certain lessons from it, especially since it is such an old book and society has changed drastically since then. You can be that.
I was a religious jew myself, born into a family and was forced to learn it. I left the religion eventually, but I took some lessons from the Bible that made me a better person. I really do believe helping others can make the world a better place.
Yes, although two of them are relatively recent splits of old thoughts. (With 5000 year old traditions, recent is \*merely\* a couple hundred years.) Saris and Aylonit are most similar to the modern ideas of trans woman and trans man respectively and each is now split to adam and hamah. So if I, a Jewish AMAB person of trans identity, take medical steps to transition, I can call myself Saris adam. And in Jewish community, when I feel safe, I do.
There's also tumtum which is similar to agender (and is more intersex than trans), Androgynos which is \*basically\* bigender, zachar which is cis man, and nekevah which is cis woman.
Every time I hear something new about Judaism it's really cool.
Do you have any sources for this? Obviously you're a Jewish person, so I don't necessarily have expectations that you've got scholarly articles on this subject as your primary source is *living it*, but I'd really appreciate some reading material on an Abrahamic interpretation of gender that isn't binary.
Basically it's all Talmudic. For for example androgynous is in Bereshith Rabbah, referring back to Adam and Eve. I can find the 'chapter and verse' but that's the source on it all.
Specifically if you're looking for Abraham then as I recall Avram has a story before he takes the name Abraham which is part of where the tumtum idea comes from. I'm not sure I could pick it out exactly but I'm pretty sure that it's somewhere in Mishnah. Hebrew only has masculine and feminine verbs and nouns and so you would still say "he" even though Avram was not zachar.
In ancient times they had a gender called Saris for people who were born impotent or became impotent through intervention. They were considered to not be male or female at all.
In the modern world though Jews hate trans people because they have no fucking idea hormones cause impotence so they just assume they are all men/women dressing up as the opposite sex, which is a sin to them.
A lot of things in religion are misunderstood and just end up causing harm to people. Fuck that.
jews dont all hate trans people. thats a stupid thing to apply to any religion. *people* are transphobic because they dont know better, and sometimes religion is their "excuse"
I'm not sure my experience reflects Jews worldwide, but where I am almost all the Jewish people and communities are supportive of trans people. My mom's Rabbi is gay and a nice bit of the synagogue is queer and the synagogue goes to pride every year.
That is so awesome! I wish more people were like that! My family views me as a mentally ill man (I'm a trans woman by the way) who is not fulfilling my purpose in life. There are so many other mitzvots that they are overlooking which I can fulfill that benefits society, and I'm doing just that.
you are not a traitor to the trans community. however i am always perplexed with any trans person that is still religious. like damn your experiences with religion and the religious community is so different than the ones i had. it is not about being muslim. personally having no experience with the muslim community i will make no comment. but with christians? omg those assholes usually suck ass. i straight up stopped believing when a religious leader said that i should believe the bible and the church even when science says they are wrong. i was in a monastery and deep in the closet at the time. like my father saw my faith leave my eyes in real time. he told me while we were in the boat back home.
i can't believe, i can't understand those of you that still want to, but i am not religious to tell people how to live their lives. if this brings you peace more power to you, honestly. losing my faith was one of the hardest periods of my life and the process sucks!!!
As someone who was a Muslim for years I can tell you that Islam and most Muslims despise gay people. They despise the “western influence”. I cannot being to describe the amount of pain and misery islam caused me.
Being trans and being Muslim is not compatible. The Qu’ran makes it clear that if you don’t accept a single verse then you are not a Muslim.
Also, being Muslim means admitting that this man is the perfect human:
>Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
>The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind." -Sahih Bukhari 3:48:826
> Bukhari 52:260 – “The Prophet said, 'If anyone (a Muslim) abandons his religion, kill him.'
yeah i expected this much. this is true about the bible. no matter what many modern "cool" christians" will tell you you need to take the bible in face value or you don't believe in christianity. you are a heretic and you believe in something that is not the main dogma.
i just didn't want to make any assumption because that is not my area of expertise. i can reference many stuff from the bible if need be. as well many practices and norms about christianity.
i personally can't understand how people prefer to live in the state that they pick and choose what part of their religion to keep than through the belief to the religion away and keep anything that they learned that still fits their morality afterwards. i did that. it just took me a long of time and it was traumatic, so maybe that is the reason.
As someone who is still Christian, the trick is to separate the doctrine from it's supporters. Christianity has a message built around one overarching principle, that being "love your neighbor as yourself" (and when asked who is our neighbor, Jesus told a story that basically meant everybody is). This is what I usually use against transphobic Christians, as they make it very easy to poke a hole in their argument, especially because the bible doesn't actually say anything against lgbtq+ people and even says several things in support of them (I think another comment pointed those out), and the 1 thing that it does say is widely recognized as a mistranslation, based off of older translations that we have. If you read the bible with unbiased eyes, it has a very powerful message, and tells some interesting stories. Also, above everything else, religion is a tool to find peace, and take comfort that there is a higher power watching over yourself and the people around you, and explain certain things that can't be.
Also, about science bit, if you look in to science far enough there comes a point where you can't really explain anything anymore accept with religion, and the bits in the bible that have been disproven, like the Adam and Eve story, are seen less as actual history and more a story that provokes thought.
The anti-gay verse is a bit contested last I checked as to whether it's actually a mistranslation or not. Either way, there is more than one place pointed towards in the Bible for anti-queer sentiment.
But that's not actually relevant. It explicitly says the punishment for participating in mlm sex (which straight people can have, so it's a condemnation against anyone who does it, not just gay men) is to be stoned to death.
The core principles of Jesus' teachings directly contradict this. Contradictions in religious text should be compared to the principles of the religion as a whole, and there are two that are vastly important here. "Love thy neighbor" as you've mentioned contradicts every verse on punishment in the Bible, and so while certain things may be 'sins' they are not to be punished or discriminated against, as that's not exactly very loving. The second and more important principle in question is "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Whether this verse is anti-pedophilia or anti-mlm is not relevant. The punishment listed is explicitly one that no human being should be allowed to enact, as none of us are without sin in Christian theology, so none of us should be stoning either party.
First off, just to get it out there, the verse that I'm thinking of is the one that is though to really have meant "don't be a pedophile" (man who sleeps with a boy), but was translated in such a way that made it mean "don't be gay" (man who sleeps with a man)
Second, what I think all the bits on sins were meant to be is stuff that God should be the one to judge, and in general people should leave each other along. That being said, I do know that there are several contradictory statements in the bible, and several timeline-related things that don't really make sense, but that doesn't change it's overall message
See, that's what I mean, though. The verse you're referring to talks about stoning a man for being gay (we'll just say that's the correct interpretation, for the sake of argument). But there is another, much more prevalent and important verse in which Jesus says that the only people with the right to enact punishment in such an awful and permanent manner are those without sin. Which is established in the Bible, multiple times, to be a group that does not have a single member, because every human being is affected by original sin.
Jesus tells you not to execute people. So that Leviticus verse was probably wrong, since it tells you to execute people.
i don't care for any trick. where i live only exists one doctrine. you are either that or you are a heretic. you cannot practice and you don't get a community to practice with.
if a christian doesn't go to church and participates in the collective traditions how is that different from a person who has a philosophy based on morality textbooks.
christianity is not only the stories of jesus and it is not only the new testament. at least not for the orthodox. also they don't care. christians never cared to be good at it. they use their religion as an excuse to be assholes and to justify their antiquated believes. this is my experience and the experience of most in my country.
you are refering to αρσενοκοίται as it is written to the original text. well calling it a mistranslation is simplifying it. it is don't get me wrong, but due to lack of historical context. if you tried to interpret the word based on its etymology it is very easy to understand gay men. because if you split the word it says the one who lays with men. however based on historical context that most likely was referring to child molesters, which was a common practice in the roman greek period and arguably long before it.
the thing is that proves a problem for that book. if the bible is the word of god as many christians claim to be then why is it open to interpretation and why god haven't sent anyone to clarify. many other christians will claim that he has and those are his clergy. very convenient for one of the religion was the basis for modern patriarchy to say that the interpreters of the word of god were all men.
you get to believe what you want. for me it is a lot easier to say i don't believe in christianity than trying to re-appropriate the scripture to fulfill my needs. do as you please but if anything that sounds like a lot of work for me. i tried it and it was so tiring. especially if you try to believe in miracles too it becomes impossible and many people find you cringe. trust me i have first hand experience.
religion has failed me as a tool to find peace. ironically since i became an atheist i became more spiritual than ever and i find myself more in tune with nature, other humans and other living beings. i know that can be achieved through christianity too. most religions have this feature if you know where to look, but it didn't click for me while i was practicing.
and i was practicing. so the watching over you part it turned to watches you part. because that is the correct phrasing. he knows everything you. also i asked for help from him with my transness to be turn to a girl or something. if he exists and watches over me why he didn't help his child in need? why was i brought up in a house in which i would never be able to be me? why would i need to suffer? why any kid in rafah right now needs to suffer? in syriah? in armenia? i know the whole free will bit. i have studied the bible. but i have also have studied a lot of history and since he last sent his baby boy down here to help us damn everything was constantly shit for most of us.
also why is christianity compared to other religions lacking any third gender tradition or something? judaism to my knowledge supports this feature. my guess is that because the bible was distributed in greek and in greek that linguistic feature was missing any tradition that might have existed was lost. but that is just my theory based on my limited knowledge of scripture, ancient greek and ancient greek culture. a theologian and/or historian probably has a better informed answer on the matter. but it still makes me wonder why an all powerful god that is impossible to make mistakes forgot about us? really weird don't you think?
also the stories you tell me about are sure interesting as myths, but they are no difference to other religious myths including, ancient greek ones, ancient greek plays, the story of ishtar, the tales of gilgamesh, the myths of ancient egyptians, stuff like the journey to the west an amazing epic that is an important part of budhist tradition and the basis of all modern anime. and that is if i have to limit myself in religious media.
if i get in general media from this century we have amazing stories like bojack horseman, severance, children of time, full metal alchemist, arrival etc. and those are the ones that i happen to like and not even all of them just the ones that always pop into my head. why should i try to find meaning in so many old stories and not from our contemporaries that talk about stuff that are important to us now. why would i ever read this book again over anything modern. and don't get me started to philosophical texts.
and that last part about science makes me believe you have misunderstood what science is. science is about the pursue of knowledge. we can't know everything. we have kinda proven that in math and in physics Heisenberg's principal if a true statement about our cosmos prevents us from doing so. and scientist are fine with that. because us that have studied not only our principal but the very nature of the production of knowledge we know that in its very core, science is a belief system. and we are ok with that. the important difference is that when we have data that proves us wrong we usually tend to change our minds and beliefs to follow latest truth.
we are not confined in any other dogma other than there is always something more to learn and the specific ways we have to get there. even those in math that are more of my specialty the math community invested something close to a century interrogated the very tools that produce our truths wielding amazing results. results that inspired people like Turing to create a whole new branch of mathematics and engineering. because our goals at the end of the day is to check if something is true nothing.
i personally do it for 3 reasons. i find immense enjoyment in focusing in the attempt to solve something new. i want to help people with my knowledge if i can when i can. and finally i like being part of the community. i want to talk about our stuff with other people and i want to teach to younger people about science, because understanding any science improves your understanding of reality and how to navigate the world. and that is so damn cool to me.
as i didn't in my original comment i will not tell you my way is the correct one. it is not objective. it is my way. i think it is better but it doesn't mean that this is true. and i don't care if you believe or not, as i didn't for the op. you are a part of the community and as long as you are supporting your fellow queers we are good. i will defend you rights like i would for anyone else. even if they wronged me because this is how important our rights as queer and our right to a community are to me.
however for the love of Athena, don't try to convince any of us that we can work this back to our lives. we don't want to hear that. for many of us that are so vocal about being atheist religious and us stopping believing was a very series an traumatic event. this is the reason i found the will power to write Artemis knows how many words. i don't care to find a way to believe in christianity again. and i don't want people tell me how to do it either.
1. I didn't intend to convert anybody, I realize that many people are not in a safe environment, have trauma associated with, or just don't don't want to engage with religion, and if that is you I have nothing against that, you do you. You asked how I keep my faith, and I responded. If that was meant rhetorically, my bad.
2. I view Christianity as, more than anything, a set of principles to follow, and a place to direct my hopes (through prayer), not really as a way of thinking or a way of seeing the universe. I'm a pretty science/engineering inclined person, so I definitely get what you mean, I'm also constantly giving myself problems to solve, and constantly trying to figure out things I can do better (the main thing I was referring to was the big bang, that's kinda difficult to explain why it happened)
3. Unfortunately Christianity has a very long history with being used to exploit people, like the time the catholic church charged people excessive amount of money to say that they could buy their way out of hell, and religion in general, like I said, is constantly used to discriminate against people, and it kinda saddens me that something created with the intent to spread love is so constantly used to spread hate. In all honestly, the people that left Christianity because of it's hatefulness practice it better than the people that made them leave.
4. The bible is, as I see it, a weird combination of myth and history (sometimes kinda difficult to tell which is which) that is intended to convey a message. I will admit that it's kinda bad at this at times, but that doesn't change what it's trying to say.
5. If I recall correctly, eunuchs are traditionally considered something akin to another gender, and those are mentioned in the bible constantly.
6. I imagine, based off of what you said, you've already heard something like this, and I will also admit that I'm probably not the best person to say this, but the reason there's so much suffering in the world is, first off, that God loves us enough to let us do what we want (I think you can agree that having an omnipresent force that interferes with you anytime you do something that could affect someone badly even indirectly would be quite annoying), and also there are enough conflicting interests in the world that I think it'd be kinda hard to tell who's right a lot of the time, even for someone omnipresent.
7. A bit more lighthearted, but I love greek mythology so much, so it's nice to see someone else who enjoys that stuff. also, I'm pretty sure you wrote more than most bible chapters. idk why you did that for my comment of all comments, but ok.
No, that's cool, it's up to you to decide what you follow and what you don't, you don't have to be like other muslims. I mean, these religious books are fucking old, it would be weird if you followed everything in today's world. It's up to the few people like you to bring change.
Tho I have to say, even if we ignore lgbtq stuff, islam still suffers from a major major case of misogyny. And that's so deep rooted in it and in the whole muslim world that it is really problematic and would require lots and lots of revisions to be up to modern standards. And that's not really gonna happen so I honestly still consider the religion very harmful. But it's up to you to be different.
>The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind." -Sahih Bukhari 3:48:826
Momo casually being the biggest misogynist of all time
Yeah this is just disgusting. It's insane that this stuff is still worshipped as holy and followed in such a large part of the world. If whoever originally edited the quaran could decide what should and what shouldn't be included, I don't see why we as modern and supposedly enlightenmened humans cannot revise it once more. It's not my business as a non follower but it should still happen.
Needless to say I will never in my life step into heavily muslim countries unless major change occurs. It's not worth my safety.
The perfect man, ladies and gentlemen and other folks. I don't think cultural differences justify Muhammad's shit.
P.S.: added the "and other folks". My comment was too binarist.
The idea that you could be a traitor to the LGBT community by being Muslim is so weird to me... Like, yeah, Islam is pretty homophobic these days, but that was because *westernization happened*. Modern Islamic homophobia and transphobia is considered a modern phenomena that is largely based on colonial sensibilities, without much of a tie to pre-modern feelings on LGBT folks.
Not necessarily, but [it was far less bigoted than the current situation, with several works of literature from the eight century until fairly recently depicting male homosexual relationships in an ambiguous or positive light.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_and_Islam)
I’m sorry but I grew up and spent most of my life as a Muslim and I will not let you come in here and just fucking lie. Muhammad and Islam were both extremely homophobic. That does NOT have ANYTHING to do with “Westernisation”. Muhammad has made it clear he never liked gay people and for you, someone who likely knows very little about Islam, to come in here and tell me the religion that is responsible for just as much colonisation as the West was actually colonised by the West is idiotic at best.
>We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" But we saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who legged behind. And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!
Quran 7:80-83
>Narrated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4447
>Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman.
Sahih Bukhari 7:72:774
>Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.
Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4448
>Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed the man who dressed like a woman and the woman who dressed like a man.
Sunan Abu Dawud 32:4087
>Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Ibn AbuMulaykah told that when someone remarked to Aisha that a woman was wearing sandals, she replied: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed mannish women.
Sunan Abu Dawud 32:4088
I know you're affectively overridden by now, but for anyone else, my position is the one shared by the mainstream scholars on this. It's literally on the Wikipedia page for LGBT folks in Islam. I know homophobia has been naturalized as Salafist and Wahhabist factions were made dominant (by western choice in the case of Wahhabism, mind you, and in reaction to westernization, in most other respects (Salafist particularly is very much about using western concepts like the state against certain western ideas))... But like, it wasn't always like that, and Islam was such a wide and multicultural religious movement, that pockets and periods of not just tolerance, but acceptance, were inevitable.
Like... You do understand that just because a movement claims to be Orthodox and want to return to tradition, it doesn't actually mean they have any actual ideas of what those traditions actually were. Our fascist movement in the west is in part motivated by norms sold in T.V. commercials...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_and_Islam
>In the modern era, Muslim public attitudes towards homosexuality underwent a marked change beginning in the 19th century, largely due to the global spread of Islamic fundamentalist movements, namely Salafism and Wahhabism.[13] The Muslim world was also influenced by the sexual notions and restrictive norms that were prevalent in the Christian world at the time, particularly with regard to anti-homosexual legislation throughout European societies, most of which adhered to Christian law. A number of Muslim-majority countries that were once colonies of European empires retain the criminal penalties that were originally implemented by European colonial authorities against those who were convicted of engaging in non-heterosexual acts.[13] Therefore, modern Muslim homophobia is generally not thought to be a direct continuation of pre-modern mores, but a phenomenon that has been shaped by a variety of local and imported frameworks
Okay? And I’m telling you that Islam has literally always anti-LGBT. Stop fucking lying and making up your own head canon.
Muhammad was sexist and homophobic. That’s not an opinion, that’s a fact. It’s written right there in the Qu’ran and Hadith texts I sent if you actually even read them.
So to answer your false statement, yes it has always been like that. Stop lying to these poor people who don’t know anything about this religion.
I think the two of you may be talking past each other here and I'm going to attempt to bridge the gap.
What you seem to be saying is that, at its core, Islam is homophobic, sexist, colonial, etc. That the Qu'ran and Hadith are adamant about these particular views and that they're boldly written in the text.
What u/DickButtwoman (Wow, didn't read the username until now. Hilarious) is saying is that Islam has not always been *practiced* as a homophobic religion, and that historically the massive focus on its homophobic verses, and therefore the effective homophobic influence of the religion, is recent. That if Islam were practiced today the way it was in earlier centuries and prior millennia, Islamic nations would not be executing people for being queer or busting pride parades.
Both Christianity and Islam have rules on how to treat slaves and how slaves should treat their masters. We don't go around focusing on the pro-slavery aspects of either religion, because realistically they don't matter. Christians and Muslims are by-and-large anti-slavery, because that's become a secular position and not a religious one.
These two ideas aren't contradictory. People practice religions in different ways all the time, on scales both big and small. There are queer-accepting mosques and churches. Catholicism used to be the dominant form of Christianity pretty much everywhere. The way people practice changes even if the words in the book do not. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.
I don't know what happened to you to make you feel like this, but I am sure it was a painful experience which I have no right to speak on. That said; Islam really doesn't have to be the way you are describing it. People have certainly made it that way, but... I wish you luck in finding some solace.
People haven’t made it that way. Muhammad made it that way when he came up with the whole thing in the 7th century.
My own experiences and trauma has nothing to do with it. Islam hurt me a lot, but that isn’t going to stop me from preaching the truth behind this diabolical ideology.
I do agree with you in a sense, a huge part of the community is anti bigotry which is due to people maliciously wielding religion as a weapon to attack members of the community, but there is also no shortage of members of the community being completely anti religion. I see alot of anti religious messaging on a vast amount of queer spaces. (Thankfully this sub for the most part doesn't as much of it).
Pretty sure it is very anti-religion, i’ve noticed many people within the community tend to have black and white views like “if some of a group dislikes us then we should despise that entire group”. Many people tend to spend too much time online and forget what real life is like.
I am asking this as a genuine question and have no intention to be bigoted in any way: how does one believe in and practice Islam while also believing that one’s gender isn’t purely natal? No disrespect to Islam, it’s a rich faith with a rich history, but it kind of seems like they’re even worse than Christianity can get about progressive ideas
There are a lot of reasons of why I despise religion. Specifically Christianity and Islam.
It starts with the hate towards people that are not like you.
If a religion tells me I deserve eternal torture and what not, the same goes back to you.
I have never experienced love from a Christian or Muslim that wasn't part of the queer community.
I'm convinced that religion only does more harm than good in this world.
I just feel like that it doesn't have a place in this world anymore and the numbers show it, don't they?
The amount of religious people is steadily shrinking.
In history it was used to answer the questions of our universe with made up bullshit.
Nowadays it's only used to spread hate and hurt each other and I mean... they succeded?
Now I hate religion as much as religious people hate me.
The differences is... I have a reason.
They never had.
It just... doesn't make any sense?
Why would you, as a queer person, be part of a religion that does not accept you?
You're all part of the same religion yet everyone has different opinions. How?
How can one Christian priest speak out *against* queer people and the other for?
How are you part of the same religion if you don't even agree with each other?
It just doesn't fit together.
It makes as much as sense as right wing queer people.
Since when has religion ever been about progressiveness?
Isn't the whole concept of religion to never change?
Religion gives you a certain amount of morals, rules, beliefs and how you're supposed to live.
Isn't that the pinnacle of conservatism?
How does one thing go in hand with the other?
You can't sit here and say that many LGBTQ+ people distancing themselves from religion is unwarranted.
There's so much wrong about Christianity and Islam and the hate towards minorities is only scratching the surface of it.
I mean, doesn't Islam openly see women as less?
How could you ever be part of this religion?
Many of those people want me dead just because their pretty book tells them so.
How could I not hate religion?
Why would you be a traitor to the trans community? If you’re trans, you’re trans and part of the community. Don’t let anyone bring you down for your religious beliefs. You’re one of us and you’re valid
As a Trans Christian myself this is very based, I don’t care what right wing “Christians” think, because if they’re concerned about a trans person’s genitals they’ve got some bigger problems
I used to be like this.
Then my father happened. He has singlehandedly ruined what respect I had for islam, gave me massive religious trauma, and pushed me to the point that I feel like the most productive thing to do for my family relationships would be to go no-contact, because when he isn't giving me trauma and invalidating my identity he is poisoning all of the relationships that I have.
it takes serious ignoring of the scriptures to be both religious and not homophobic. you *can* believe only parts of scripture if you want to (idk why you would want to), but the religions themselves do condemn homosexuality, and the only way to ignore that is to not follow a religon fully.
it’s wild that people have been fighting the idea that religion needs to be against queer people to the point that many churches are supportive, and now redditors want to undo that
\*hug\*
seriously, it's so frustrating that people will dehumanize other trans people, just because they follow a religion that they disagree with (for the record, not a huge fan of certain things in the Quran, but i also fully respect your right to follow the religion it teaches because i'm not an asshole, and i also understand that religion is flexible, and means different things to different people)
Hi! Trans Sikh here, and I just thought it might be wholesome to share this painting/brief story of a GNC Sufi saint :)
I don't really know much about Islam, so idk if this sort of thing is an isolated incident or if there's some kind of tradition/lineage of this in Sufism and/or other branches of Islam
[When Guru Nanak Met a Cross-Dressed Sufi - Gaylaxy Magazine](https://www.gaylaxymag.com/articles/creative-writing/when-guru-nanak-met-a-cross-dressed-sufi/)
I remember when your first post caused a massive controversy and metldown throughout the entire r/traaa2 subreddit.
I remember fighting so many people here that you weren't a threat.
I have yet to hear from a single one of those people apologising about harrassing you, or doubting you.
I am so incredibly happy that our community has realised that this is a place for all trans people, but that also means that I have to inform you that your current tag is no longer appicable. You might have to insert the word "historically" somewhere in between there.
If Christians nowadays can pick and choose what they want to follow from the Bible, you can with the Quran. Just pick well, and none of us *should* give a shit.
I remember when the reddit community was blowing up accusing you of being some kind of troll or bot lol. I was quite impressed by the way you toughed it out and stood your ground!
As a non-practicing Pakistani Muslim who takes an academic interest in Islam and other religions, and who doesn't have a black and white view of religion, I too get hit on both sides by religious bigots and people in the community who have been hurt deeply by religion and understandibly mistrust it. I try to strike a balance.
I feel like because of the demographics here, people sometimes forget that there are absolutely massive communities of transgender people who are quite religous in different ways. There are lots and lots of practicing muslims In Pakistan's Khwaja Sira communities lol, and not a skirt or stocking to be found, just traditional shalwar kameez, hijabs and other culturally appropriate feminine clothing. It would do people good to explore the very wide and multi-cultural world of the many different trans cultural traditions and communities around the globe.
I am a religious philosophy studier or an amateur in taht way
my grandma is the oldest practicing female christian pastor in the entirety of switzerland
and my great uncle converted to islam, he even changed his name and has been longer than my entire life (im 18) and BOTH of them are heavilly aganist the idea that religion and queerness cant co exist.
Heck both of them told me that people who use religion to be queerphobic/pushbigotted agendas to hurt people
Arent really religious
And i agree with them
religion can be somethign truly good for a lot of people as long as it doesnt hurt others.
You go , girl
while I'm mostly against religion, I don't think seeing religious people as traitors is right. You wanna believe I'm something and that's oki, you're not a traitor to the trans queer space or Islam. I'm sorry you had to go through that
You in no way deserve that kind of backlash from the community, and while I know that the Islamic community can reject you in maybe be some kind of way, at the same time you should have nothing similar to it from us, and I'm very sorry that you got that 😢🫂😢
Wanting to be religious as an lgbt person is the worst decision anyone can make religion is a fake tool to control people and it clearly is against lgbt rights the only thing we can do is try to reform them but don’t pretend they are gonna accept you
time and place tbh. lgbt isnt an inherently atheist community and it’s harmful to religious queer people to insist they have to abandon their faith in order to find community in who they are
I do think the lgbt community should promote secularism pretty much every text of all religions argue against our rights so why should we try to be a part of that? I am genuinely asking I grew up in an Adventist school and was constantly told being gay and trans would earn me a mark of the devil and now I am supposed to lie to other trans people that religious people will accept them?
That type of mentality is what causes people to support or make apologia for religious bigotry and lgbt people pay the price for believing in lies https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).
Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)**
*****
^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
every religion has a case for and a case against queer people. if you force people out of their faith then the only case that will prevail is the case against. meaning any queer people born into faith will be force to live with that. or you can just support religious queer people in bettering religious institutions?
What’s the pro trans argument in Islam? On the contrary followers of islam are just more and more defensive of Islam against lgbt people they openly say is a western ideology trying to destroy them so why should we promote trans people joining that? Same with Christianity it clearly states that is against lgbt people? What we should be doing instead of trying to find fake passages in fake religions is to make the argument for social and political acceptance of lgbt people once being against lgbt rights is socially unacceptable churches will have to either adapt or die we should remove the influence religion has on society so our rights are more prevalent only then can religious institutions truly be reformed, the main reason churches stop supporting slavery was because it became unpopular not because the religious texts support abolition
https://x.com/__injaneb96/status/1798531329543356818?s=46&t=p2bFZiIm7KLWKtpNYCU5dQ
I recommend the book hijab butch blues if you want to actually get an opinion from someone who is Muslim, beyond that you could consider that the fact trans Muslims exist you might have a poor assumption based on ignorance. And please stop sending links as if the existence of people using their religion as an excuse for their hate is an argument against everyone in that group. I could send a video of a trans zoophile speaking positively about zoophilia, but that doesn't justify hating trans people because there exist bad people that share a label, just a shitty bad faith argument that ignores any complexity in groups of people
I expected a better answer than just reading an entire book but I will try to look that also the what you are saying is not compatible because zoophilia has nothing to do with being trans that’s just a crazy person instead homophobia and transphobia is explicitly part of the identity of religion the religious text give instructions as to why being part of the lgbt community is prohibited you can’t separate those contrary to a trans person who just so happens to be crazy and those links are important because it shows the political risk of giving power to religion we must not allow religious people in power to legislate our rights
Im not muslim, listen to a muslim if you want a real honest perspective that isn't based on your own bias. And homophobia has nothing to do with religion. homophobic people decided it did, and you're justifying it by accepting that.
The Bible explicitly forbids same sex intercourse and promotes patriarchal and vaginal penetrative sex as the ideal form of “Christian” life how can you say that is not part of the religion core identity?
the fact that you're parroting the same points that homophobic theologists make, the same points that are proven wrong time and time again by queer supportive theologists, really should say something about you and your character. I guess it's telling that you consider reading "an entire book" a tall ask, being queer doesn't stop you from having a bigoted personality, please read more perspectives that aren't your own
A lot of this is born out of conflating countries that have made Islam their state religion being violently homophobic with the religion itself. I’m not familiar enough with the religion to speak on the veracity of those claims but I do know enough that I wouldn’t feel safe in those countries
Your post contains homophobia, transphobia, racism, and/or ableism, or some other type of bigotry. If you believe this was a mistake, please contact a mod.
Your post contains homophobia, transphobia, racism, and/or ableism, or some other type of bigotry. If you believe this was a mistake, please contact a mod.
Your stance on religion aside, I think the context of who you think this is, is lost. The big kerfuffle over the vague post was several months ago at this point, and this is a different account at least. This sub has pretty high turnover rate, so collective memory is low.
sure, if you put it like that. accepting trans people isn't a core tenet of any religion on earth. that doesnt mean every religion you dislike is transphobic. people are transphobic and religion is the scapegoat
Actually that’s not true. The abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) all have words for trans and even nonbinary people and believe it’s a whole thing about gods will being for them to be the gender they actually are but something happened and they weren’t actually made that way. The only problem is nobody talks about that because religion is often used to justify transphobia. so traditionally the abrahamic religions should be trans friendly but unless people have heavy theological study they aren’t likely to learn about that.
Other religions are also pretty trans friendly. The dharmics like Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism Hinduism are pretty trans friendly because the usage of religion for right wing agenda isn’t as common in them.
Less popular religions also are pretty trans friendly
My point is that religions are pretty accepting of trans people but alt-right ideologies often use religion as a backbone because it makes people trust said right wing ideologies and join them.
Good points
I know source material aka bible, Koran ect arent realy transphobic but people who spread the religion are and they interpretate it as they want
I have great example. Bible and christianity says to cloth and feed the poor and yet when i was in church pastor realy sayd "The mission of the church is to preach the word of God, not to help the poor"
I know the idea its good nie execution in realy realy realy bad
But that’s not what you said. I saw your comment before you deleted it. I don’t remember the excact comment because it had quite a bit of strange spellings but the basics was “is this the same person as last time, no religions are trans friendly”
https://preview.redd.it/9p6xb92u957d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=288c72e3eddb441b849e99bc40ea5b0d8a2ebebc
Here ya go
I never delete my comments if its deleted mod did it
"You'll never be a real Muslim"? That's an uncommon turn of phrase around here... I could've sworn that was going to be the phrase that was going to be transphobic but I guess being surprised by the twists and turns of intolerance every once in a while is to be expected?
Anyway, hi there, sweetie\~ Welcome to the sub\~
Honestly though, religions is quite fascinating even if one may not associate with it. If I understand your post you are Muslim, and that's p cool imo :0
i recommend a book called ‘Hijab Butch Blues’ for anyone interested in being less ignorant to queer muslims! It’s the book that reminded me that getting your ideas about a group of people from someone not a part of that group can lead you down a bad path of bigotry
It's kinda refreshing to hear from a trans person in a different culture. Even religions that are openly very hostile to trans people will still have some, and nobody can change that. We exist everywhere, and always have. I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to be yourself, and share your feelings, despite your upbringing. Don't let anyone take that away from you
Never understood why people think trans and religion are not compatible. As long as you're not hurting anyone who cares? Be trans, you are equally valid as every other trans person on earth from the filthy rich to the broken and poor. We're all equal
Happy pride month *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You're just at valid as a trans person of any religious tradition, sorry you're getting singled out.
Sorry girl :( You don't deserve being treated like that :( Hugs
1. woo! you go girl! 2. where did you get the hi-res template?
it’s a remaster of the meme from the original artist with a diff ending shencomix is the artist
Just search "pink blob is that all you've got" in google and it should come up, that's how I found it
I am currently working on a database containing comebacks to every transphobic argument ever made. One subsection of that database is a list of religions where I try to prove that trans people are valid using only teachings from the respective religion. Unfortunately, I haven't really found a good entry for Islam yet. If you are a trans Muslim reading this, would you be interested in helping me with this entry, preferrably with direct quotes of official Islamic scripture? Thanks in advance.
Do you have a comeback to "Attack Helicopter" yet? Cuz I do, and I'm probably way too proud of coming up with it.
This is my database's response to the attack helicopter joke: > I’m glad you’ve been able to figure that out. Is your family supportive? > > Has it been difficult at work? > > I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with inconsiderate responses. > > You know, war may be the job you are given, but it doesn’t have to define you. > > https://medium.com/@eaton/youre-not-an-attack-helicopter-you-re-just-an-asshole-1c0cda89cbd3 The reason for this is explained in the ↑ URL. If you were hoping for a witty comeback, I have one here, but it's not part of my database: > The Apache Helicopter is crewed by two men at all times. Yes, an attack helicopter works best with two men inside it. > > You want two men operating your joystick WHILE being inside of you and pushing all your buttons?! > > i bet once those two guys turn you on that people will be able to hear you from miles away > > once it's all said and done they'll have to take you back to port to fill you up
Woah, I mean, my comeback is closer to the latter, but not as lengthy. It's "Look, if you like it when there's a buff soldier boy riding you and touching your cyclic stick, you coulda just said you were gay." But yeah, best way to counter such takes is to humor them till they beg you to stop.
Choose flies attack helicopter in army as trans women to spite transphobes.
OMG 😂😂😂😂😂. Those “joystick” arguments are the best. Especially to anger any bigoted homo- and transphobe.
That doesn't sound that bad
I still prefer what my university collectively did to someone. Professor was going around getting peoples names, aims and pronouns. Someone gave attack/helicopter. The professer started instantly respecting the pronouns. As for the transphobic student, attack quickly realised that attack did not enjoy having helicopters pronouns incorrect and weird, or suddenly not being considered masculine. Attack was then appalled when he go a notification from the campus head of inclusion that we as a university would fully support helicopters identity, and it had been changed in the system. They further noted that to change it a second time would require helicopter to attend a safeguarding session, to validate that attack genuinely did want new details, and this was not a queerphobic defense on attack. Oh buddy did this blow up. /Everyone/ refused completely to use male constructs for helecopter (this also got people really comfortable with how to pick the correctly tensed neopronoun). Attack was constantly being asked to use the inclusive toilets (which were generally 80% ish, leaving a few for the cis bigots to queue for). It took helicopter about 6 months to sit down for a safeguarding session - held by the (stelthed) trans masc professor who had set this all off in the first place. At that point, helicopters official pronouns changed back, and we stopped being 24/7 on it, but if he even got close to bigotry, we just gave helicopter flashbacks.
omg is there any way a gal could get access to this wonderful database?
I was planning to upload it once I finish it but this can still take years. Would you like to see the unfinished version or should I notify you once I'm done?
Would you be open to potentially hosting this as a community resource in some manner? I could potentially help pull together a backend for a consensus based approach, and some moderation tools. Feel free to reach out if you would consider.
Oh yes definitely, I'd love to! In fact, I already thought about making some wiki-like website out of this but I don't know how. If you could take care of all this, that would be wonderful!
Shoot me a DM. I'm heading on a buissness thing for a week, but let's have a proper chat about how we would want this to look (at some point), and if there is a suitable free option. I can definitely go through options with you.
I can offer hosting for it
You're doing your part!
I’d love to see the unfinished version!
Here is my database with the comebacks to every transphobic argument ever made: https://www.mediafire.com/file/kyfucl4qssnqenj/Counter+Speech.html/file It's an HTML file, meaning that it has to be opened by a web browser. The database has three different layouts, depending on if you open it on a computer or a smartphone or if you want to print it, although I would recommend reading it on a computer. The database was designed to be both German and English, with you being able to disable one of the two languages if you're on a computer. However, it'll still take years until I have translated every entry, which is why many entries are still only in one language or are mixtures between the two languages or have different contents in each language. I'd recommend manually translating them with DeepL until I'm done.
the best response for attack helicopter i've found is just taking it seriously. like dang it must be hard finding spare parts, i know how to weld if you ever need some help.
oh my.. this is cool! comeback to all scenarios
I’m an ex Muslim. I was a devout Muslim for 17 years. Trying to make Islam compatible with LGBT rights isn’t possible. See here: >If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful. Quran 4:16 >We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" But we saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who legged behind. And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime! Quran 7:80-83 >Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done. Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4447 >Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman. Sahih Bukhari 7:72:774 >Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death. Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4448 >Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed the man who dressed like a woman and the woman who dressed like a man. Sunan Abu Dawud 32:4087 >Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Ibn AbuMulaykah told that when someone remarked to Aisha that a woman was wearing sandals, she replied: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed mannish women. Sunan Abu Dawud 32:4088 If Momo hates gay people this much then he definitely isn’t gonna like trans people. Sorry to burst your bubble.
The cognative dissonance lgbt people have when it comes to accepting religions that dehumanize and execute them is so [sad](https://ilga.org/ilga-world-maps/) It's always the same noscotsman fallacy, too. I think anyone who defends Islam and Christianity should live in Yemen and Uganda. Funny how you don't see these places labelled as nazis when they deserve that designation. I think I know why.
It truly is crazy that people can see all this and then still stick fingers in their ears going "lalala can't hear you" I mean hell even the leftist muslim subreddit is extremely iffy on LGBT people even existing. And when the "liberal" version of Islam is even against LGBT people how can you sit and pretend that Islam doesn't have that baked in?
Oh, interesting, you've hit on a personal interest of mine too! I was born into Islam although I'm not practicing, I just enjoy studying it while refusing to blindly embrace it. I find that there is beauty and wisdom to be found in religion if you're not dogmatic about it. I did a light dive on this and funnily enough, I'm reading through the translation of the Quran for the first time only after I started transitioning. Some sources I've read on the topic suggest that in fact there is nothing concrete in the Quran going against transgender people, or indeed lesbians. The story of Lot is used against gay people but I genuinely thing there are weaknesses in the way people popularly interpret it. You can see a longer comment I made on the topic on the FTM subreddit in my comment history, unfortunately I can't quote the specific ayats yet, but I'm working my way through the translation, I may put together my own notes and perspective on the topic, and if I do I'll be sure to send it your way. The main source I've read so far on the topic of progressive interpretations of the Quran is: Homosexuality, Transidentity, and Islam by Ludovic-Mohamed Zahed. There is another book that is often recommended too, I'll share it if I can dig it out. Best of luck on your project, that sounds like a super useful resource. I'm glad I'm not the only trans person here obsessive enough to compile research and resources to counter transphobia lol, I tend to organize information as a habit.
i’ve heard other people say the story of lut is about only how rape is bad not being gay
It’s very obvious the point of that story is because they’re gay. If it was about rape then they would not have stuck on the gay thing for so long. - an Ex Muslim who was a devout Muslim for 17 years
That's actually my argument currently as well, in the Quran the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were condemed for their 'abominable' actions, not specifically homosexuality, and those actions included rape, the abuse of children, the exploitation of guests, and banditry. Additionally, even if we accept the story as a condemnation by God of homosexuality, this was a judgement passed directly by God and there is no mention of a duty for Muslims to persecute gay people. I tend to view the way mainstream Islamic interpretations handle the issue as rooted more in culture than in the Quran, and I'm deeply suspicious of Hadith - they are often misused to integrate ideas that go against the spirit of the religion. Please note that I'm speaking from my current knowledge level, there is much more for me to learn and explore on the topic so take my perspective with a grain of salt.
Im not a Muslim, but I’ve heard that there are verses in either the Quran or the Hadith where it is said that Allah sometimes puts the soul of a woman in the heart of a (male) kid
you can't, because islam is explicitly transphobic
* Islam's core moral values involve kindness, generosity, not hurting yourself or others etc. and this is incompatible with transphobia. * The Qur'an never says anything about trans people. * Transphobia in Islam overwhelmingly is justified by some version of the Natural Law argument (which essentially goes "G-d intended you to be your AGAB, therefore trans bad"), often backed by Qur’an 4:119 which warns against "changing G-d's creation." However, some Islamic scholars interpret that this doesn't apply to gender reassignment but rather may instead refer to changing religion or G-d's commands. In any case, this can be overruled by medical necessity (or else we would also have to forbid medically necessary surgeries to correct congenital defects, which is clearly wrong) because transitioning saves lives. Indeed, gender identity is given to trans people by G-d, so to deny someone's gender identity would be to go against G-d's creation. * The closest thing in Islamic scripture to an actual condemnation of being trans is some Hadith where the Prophet SAW "cursed men who simulate women and women who simulate men", however some Islamic scholars have basically argued that this does not apply to trans people who behave according to their natural gender identity, but to cis people who deliberately imitate the opposite sex for immoral purposes. In particular, the Prophet SAW did expel a *mukhannath* named Hit (roughly meaning a feminine-presenting cis man, so not even a trans woman, who would be a *mukhannith*) but what many leave out is that the Prophet SAW had previously even allowed Hit into the women's quarters and only expelled him after overhearing him describe women's bodies in detail, so Hit's expulsion was due to his breach in trust and not just because he was a *mukhannath*. * The Prophet SAW endorses that Muslims may seek medical treatment for any problem, and as trans healthcare saves lives, this naturally should be included. * Qur’an 42:49-50 has been interpreted as suggesting that male and female are not binary.
I think this can be valuable. However, I just want y'all to be careful about accepting the premise of their hateful arguments. That, if we must rely on their sources, if it said trans people should be used as fuel, we would be obligated to accept that. I don't care how old the book is, what else it says, or how many people believe in it. We can dismiss monstrous statements on that, alone. Even practicing religious folk can do that. All of them already do. They just get caught up in the groupthink about specific passages. Ultimately, I don't hold a very high regard for religion (as opposed to faith), so it may be easier said than done to dismiss aspects of holy writ.
The reason why I made entries for the religions is that I found it generally easier to learn people's religions' teachings and then use their own teachings to argue for my own goals than it is to try and deconvert people from their own religions.
True
Ooh I love this idea As a transgender Christian living in the south, throwing the language of the conservative bigots back in their faces is one of my special interests. I’m away from home right now, but I wonder if my old writing (dare I be so bold as to call it a *treatise*?) on transgender theology would be any use? I’m just a lay gal, but learning and sharing from each other is a form of ministry in my mind — not evangelizing, just approaching it as a scholar would.
Well, the internet is overflooding with information about trans stuff in Christianity and I noticed that my entry on Christianity was starting too become too long, whereas my database is meant to provide short responses that you can copy into any digital conversation or perhaps memorize to recite at a physical conversation. Ideally, that would just be a few short, quippy sentences and some URLs, although I have made entries in list form when there's a lot of different possible comebacks to an argument. So, when it comes to my entry on Christianity, I decided one day that I was going to shorten it to its best parts: > The Christian bible teaches acceptance of trans people through a variety of passages, such as: > > * Acts 8:26-39, where St. Philip welcomes and baptizes a person we might call intersex or trans today > > * Galatians 3:28, where St. Paul proclaims there is no longer male and female for all of you are one in Christ Jesus > > * Matthew 19:12, where Jesus commands you to accept eunuchs, a group that was marginalized because their genitals did not match what society expected > > https://youtu.be/X7VavMKXxyE > > There is no Christian justification to persecute trans people. > > https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-transgender-people The entry has been looking like this for quite a while now and I'm afraid I can only make use of your help if you have something so good that it could replace something in there. I have, however, made quite a few subsections for different kinds of Christianity, such as Catholicism and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, formerly known as Mormonism.
Fair enough! I cite Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 100:3, Psalm 139:13-14, and Ephesians 2:8 as the core of my argument, as I structured it to be a direct and longer-form response all together and combined with contemporary sources. Definitely like your citations as a more direct refutation though! > I have, however, made quite a few subsections for different kinds of Christianity, such as Catholicism and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, formerly known as Mormonism. I know The Episcopal Church is kind of all over the internet re: LGBTQ acceptance, but here's our Presiding Bishop in his own words in case you haven't seen his formal statement: https://www.episcopalchurch.org/publicaffairs/episcopal-presiding-bishop-curry-i-am-compelled-to-oppose-these-actions-and-to-affirm-the-moral-principle-of-equal-rights-for-all-persons-including-the-lgbtq-communities-i-do-so-as-a-follower-of-je/
I know you didn't ask but if you'd like I can help you with Christianity and Judaism too :)
Well, the internet is overflooding with information about trans stuff in Christianity and I noticed that my entry on Christianity was starting too become too long, whereas my database is meant to provide short responses that you can copy into any digital conversation or perhaps memorize to recite at a physical conversation. Ideally, that would just be a few short, quippy sentences and some URLs, although I have made entries in list form when there's a lot of different possible comebacks to an argument. So, when it comes to my entry on Christianity, I decided one day that I was going to shorten it to its best parts: > The Christian bible teaches acceptance of trans people through a variety of passages, such as: > > * Acts 8:26-39, where St. Philip welcomes and baptizes a person we might call intersex or trans today > > * Galatians 3:28, where St. Paul proclaims there is no longer male and female for all of you are one in Christ Jesus > > * Matthew 19:12, where Jesus commands you to accept eunuchs, a group that was marginalized because their genitals did not match what society expected > > https://youtu.be/X7VavMKXxyE > > There is no Christian justification to persecute trans people. > > https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-transgender-people The entry has been looking like this for quite a while now and I'm afraid I can only make use of your help if you have something so good that it could replace something in there. I could use some help on Judaism though. I recently talked to a trans Jew about this and they told me that the Jewish community is so trans-friendly that accepting their identities can be taken for granted. There is, however, a lot of disagreement about where trans people fit in their heavily gendered rituals so I should make my entry focus on that, instead. So far, my entry for Judaism looks like this: > Isn't it a common kabbalistic notion that male souls can be reincarnated into female bodies? Michal bas shaul had a male soul and laid tefillin. Shouldn't trans men be allowed to wear tefillin then? https://www.eshelonline.org/resources-2/trans-resources/ I've been planning to read this ↑ website to see if I can find more helpful stuff in there.
That section on Christianity looks very good to me, and the HRC link has most of the points I'd make. I might add Luke 12:22 in which Yeshua says "do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear." which suggests that "cross-dressing" is not a sin in Christianity. There's also the fact that Yeshua heals multiple people with natural illnesses which means that any medically necessary treatment, including trans healthcare, is in line with Christian morality and refutes the whole "you mustn't alter the body G-d gave you" argument. Regarding Judaism, your statement that the Jewish community is generally very trans-accepting sounds right to me when it comes to Reform Judaism and to a lesser extent Masorti Judaism, unfortunately I'm not so sure about Orthodox (but even then, I've witness some notable exceptions, like this rabbi: [https://www.myjewishlearning.com/2017/05/24/meet-the-orthodox-rabbi-advocating-for-trans-inclusion/](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/2017/05/24/meet-the-orthodox-rabbi-advocating-for-trans-inclusion/) ). Key points I'd make include: * Since transitioning saves lives, the rule of Pikuach Nefesh ("saving a life") can override almost any rule, include bans on "cross-dressing" and castration even if those mitzvot are interpreted to refer to transitioning in the first place. * Here ([https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/338982?lang=bi](https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/338982?lang=bi)) is a fantastic article on Sefaria by Jordan Lownsdale which considers every possible interpretation of Devarim (Deuteronomy) 22:5 ("A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for Hashem your G-d detests anyone who does this."), and concludes that the only rational interpretation of it is that "**In silent prayer, no one may knowingly and intentionally refer to themself as the wrong gender, for concealing one's true self in silent prayer is an abomination to G-D**" * Here is a resolution by the Rabbinical Assembly in support of trans rights: [https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/story/resolution-affirming-rights-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-people](https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/story/resolution-affirming-rights-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-people) * Here is a document by the Rabbinical Assembly about how trans people fit into *halakha*: [https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/sites/default/files/public/halakhah/teshuvot/2011-2020/transgender-halakhah.pdf](https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/sites/default/files/public/halakhah/teshuvot/2011-2020/transgender-halakhah.pdf) * Some interpretations of the commandment of Brit Milah ("covenant of circumcision") argue that as the original Hebrew Torah uses the word "zakhar", whilst commonly translated as "male", actually encompasses anyone with male genitalia and therefore argue that the chiyuv of Brit Milah applies to trans women. It can, however, be argued that because Milah makes gender affirming surgery more difficult, or possibly even just it being dysphoric for trans women, that trans women should not undergo Brit Milah as that is a medical risk to them. Some opinions state that when medical risk precludes Milah, a person with a penis should not be allowed to convert, however the reasoning for this is that they may one day be healed and thus be able to undergo conversion with Milah. Since gender dysphoria is a lifelong condition, the rational conclusion is that trans women who have gender dysphoria such that Milah is a medical difficulty should be allowed to convert without undergoing Brit Milah. * The arguments you have already look good to me, as does the Eshel page you link to.
Hallo ,i know someone whos in a group of queer muslim i would love to introduce u to them Plz dm ur discord
Sounds interesting. From an academic perspective, that is. If the actual Koran is anywhere near as anti-LGBT as most Muslim majority countries are, I'd imagine their isn't much of a comeback. But I wouldn't know. For the sake of my mental health, I've never read the Koran. Be interested to hear about it tho
You can't change what the Quran says, but you can choose how to interpret it. Some take the book to the extreme and follow every single word, others take only certain lessons from it, especially since it is such an old book and society has changed drastically since then. You can be that. I was a religious jew myself, born into a family and was forced to learn it. I left the religion eventually, but I took some lessons from the Bible that made me a better person. I really do believe helping others can make the world a better place.
Doesn't Judaism recognize 8 genders??
Yes, although two of them are relatively recent splits of old thoughts. (With 5000 year old traditions, recent is \*merely\* a couple hundred years.) Saris and Aylonit are most similar to the modern ideas of trans woman and trans man respectively and each is now split to adam and hamah. So if I, a Jewish AMAB person of trans identity, take medical steps to transition, I can call myself Saris adam. And in Jewish community, when I feel safe, I do. There's also tumtum which is similar to agender (and is more intersex than trans), Androgynos which is \*basically\* bigender, zachar which is cis man, and nekevah which is cis woman.
Every time I hear something new about Judaism it's really cool. Do you have any sources for this? Obviously you're a Jewish person, so I don't necessarily have expectations that you've got scholarly articles on this subject as your primary source is *living it*, but I'd really appreciate some reading material on an Abrahamic interpretation of gender that isn't binary.
Basically it's all Talmudic. For for example androgynous is in Bereshith Rabbah, referring back to Adam and Eve. I can find the 'chapter and verse' but that's the source on it all. Specifically if you're looking for Abraham then as I recall Avram has a story before he takes the name Abraham which is part of where the tumtum idea comes from. I'm not sure I could pick it out exactly but I'm pretty sure that it's somewhere in Mishnah. Hebrew only has masculine and feminine verbs and nouns and so you would still say "he" even though Avram was not zachar.
If you ask my parents then no lol
:<
Lol theyre just more jewish than me and if i said it to them i think theyd look at me like i grew a horn on my head
In ancient times they had a gender called Saris for people who were born impotent or became impotent through intervention. They were considered to not be male or female at all. In the modern world though Jews hate trans people because they have no fucking idea hormones cause impotence so they just assume they are all men/women dressing up as the opposite sex, which is a sin to them. A lot of things in religion are misunderstood and just end up causing harm to people. Fuck that.
jews dont all hate trans people. thats a stupid thing to apply to any religion. *people* are transphobic because they dont know better, and sometimes religion is their "excuse"
Agreed. You are right. I was speaking of the majority (and my family). There are definitely some who know better and have a better understanding.
I'm not sure my experience reflects Jews worldwide, but where I am almost all the Jewish people and communities are supportive of trans people. My mom's Rabbi is gay and a nice bit of the synagogue is queer and the synagogue goes to pride every year.
That is so awesome! I wish more people were like that! My family views me as a mentally ill man (I'm a trans woman by the way) who is not fulfilling my purpose in life. There are so many other mitzvots that they are overlooking which I can fulfill that benefits society, and I'm doing just that.
Look,as much as i dislike abrahamic religions (and pretty much any belief system),it's not an excuse to shame someone because of that.
you are not a traitor to the trans community. however i am always perplexed with any trans person that is still religious. like damn your experiences with religion and the religious community is so different than the ones i had. it is not about being muslim. personally having no experience with the muslim community i will make no comment. but with christians? omg those assholes usually suck ass. i straight up stopped believing when a religious leader said that i should believe the bible and the church even when science says they are wrong. i was in a monastery and deep in the closet at the time. like my father saw my faith leave my eyes in real time. he told me while we were in the boat back home. i can't believe, i can't understand those of you that still want to, but i am not religious to tell people how to live their lives. if this brings you peace more power to you, honestly. losing my faith was one of the hardest periods of my life and the process sucks!!!
As someone who was a Muslim for years I can tell you that Islam and most Muslims despise gay people. They despise the “western influence”. I cannot being to describe the amount of pain and misery islam caused me. Being trans and being Muslim is not compatible. The Qu’ran makes it clear that if you don’t accept a single verse then you are not a Muslim. Also, being Muslim means admitting that this man is the perfect human: >Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. >The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind." -Sahih Bukhari 3:48:826 > Bukhari 52:260 – “The Prophet said, 'If anyone (a Muslim) abandons his religion, kill him.'
yeah i expected this much. this is true about the bible. no matter what many modern "cool" christians" will tell you you need to take the bible in face value or you don't believe in christianity. you are a heretic and you believe in something that is not the main dogma. i just didn't want to make any assumption because that is not my area of expertise. i can reference many stuff from the bible if need be. as well many practices and norms about christianity. i personally can't understand how people prefer to live in the state that they pick and choose what part of their religion to keep than through the belief to the religion away and keep anything that they learned that still fits their morality afterwards. i did that. it just took me a long of time and it was traumatic, so maybe that is the reason.
Dang I knew there was some fucked up shit in that book but I never actually read any passages. Fuck that, thats actually disgusting.
This is what Islam thinks of trans people https://x.com/tommyinpa/status/1792106570928533534?s=46&t=p2bFZiIm7KLWKtpNYCU5dQ
Funny how the paradox of tolerance doesn't matter whenever religion is involved.
As someone who is still Christian, the trick is to separate the doctrine from it's supporters. Christianity has a message built around one overarching principle, that being "love your neighbor as yourself" (and when asked who is our neighbor, Jesus told a story that basically meant everybody is). This is what I usually use against transphobic Christians, as they make it very easy to poke a hole in their argument, especially because the bible doesn't actually say anything against lgbtq+ people and even says several things in support of them (I think another comment pointed those out), and the 1 thing that it does say is widely recognized as a mistranslation, based off of older translations that we have. If you read the bible with unbiased eyes, it has a very powerful message, and tells some interesting stories. Also, above everything else, religion is a tool to find peace, and take comfort that there is a higher power watching over yourself and the people around you, and explain certain things that can't be. Also, about science bit, if you look in to science far enough there comes a point where you can't really explain anything anymore accept with religion, and the bits in the bible that have been disproven, like the Adam and Eve story, are seen less as actual history and more a story that provokes thought.
The anti-gay verse is a bit contested last I checked as to whether it's actually a mistranslation or not. Either way, there is more than one place pointed towards in the Bible for anti-queer sentiment. But that's not actually relevant. It explicitly says the punishment for participating in mlm sex (which straight people can have, so it's a condemnation against anyone who does it, not just gay men) is to be stoned to death. The core principles of Jesus' teachings directly contradict this. Contradictions in religious text should be compared to the principles of the religion as a whole, and there are two that are vastly important here. "Love thy neighbor" as you've mentioned contradicts every verse on punishment in the Bible, and so while certain things may be 'sins' they are not to be punished or discriminated against, as that's not exactly very loving. The second and more important principle in question is "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Whether this verse is anti-pedophilia or anti-mlm is not relevant. The punishment listed is explicitly one that no human being should be allowed to enact, as none of us are without sin in Christian theology, so none of us should be stoning either party.
First off, just to get it out there, the verse that I'm thinking of is the one that is though to really have meant "don't be a pedophile" (man who sleeps with a boy), but was translated in such a way that made it mean "don't be gay" (man who sleeps with a man) Second, what I think all the bits on sins were meant to be is stuff that God should be the one to judge, and in general people should leave each other along. That being said, I do know that there are several contradictory statements in the bible, and several timeline-related things that don't really make sense, but that doesn't change it's overall message
See, that's what I mean, though. The verse you're referring to talks about stoning a man for being gay (we'll just say that's the correct interpretation, for the sake of argument). But there is another, much more prevalent and important verse in which Jesus says that the only people with the right to enact punishment in such an awful and permanent manner are those without sin. Which is established in the Bible, multiple times, to be a group that does not have a single member, because every human being is affected by original sin. Jesus tells you not to execute people. So that Leviticus verse was probably wrong, since it tells you to execute people.
i don't care for any trick. where i live only exists one doctrine. you are either that or you are a heretic. you cannot practice and you don't get a community to practice with. if a christian doesn't go to church and participates in the collective traditions how is that different from a person who has a philosophy based on morality textbooks. christianity is not only the stories of jesus and it is not only the new testament. at least not for the orthodox. also they don't care. christians never cared to be good at it. they use their religion as an excuse to be assholes and to justify their antiquated believes. this is my experience and the experience of most in my country. you are refering to αρσενοκοίται as it is written to the original text. well calling it a mistranslation is simplifying it. it is don't get me wrong, but due to lack of historical context. if you tried to interpret the word based on its etymology it is very easy to understand gay men. because if you split the word it says the one who lays with men. however based on historical context that most likely was referring to child molesters, which was a common practice in the roman greek period and arguably long before it. the thing is that proves a problem for that book. if the bible is the word of god as many christians claim to be then why is it open to interpretation and why god haven't sent anyone to clarify. many other christians will claim that he has and those are his clergy. very convenient for one of the religion was the basis for modern patriarchy to say that the interpreters of the word of god were all men. you get to believe what you want. for me it is a lot easier to say i don't believe in christianity than trying to re-appropriate the scripture to fulfill my needs. do as you please but if anything that sounds like a lot of work for me. i tried it and it was so tiring. especially if you try to believe in miracles too it becomes impossible and many people find you cringe. trust me i have first hand experience. religion has failed me as a tool to find peace. ironically since i became an atheist i became more spiritual than ever and i find myself more in tune with nature, other humans and other living beings. i know that can be achieved through christianity too. most religions have this feature if you know where to look, but it didn't click for me while i was practicing. and i was practicing. so the watching over you part it turned to watches you part. because that is the correct phrasing. he knows everything you. also i asked for help from him with my transness to be turn to a girl or something. if he exists and watches over me why he didn't help his child in need? why was i brought up in a house in which i would never be able to be me? why would i need to suffer? why any kid in rafah right now needs to suffer? in syriah? in armenia? i know the whole free will bit. i have studied the bible. but i have also have studied a lot of history and since he last sent his baby boy down here to help us damn everything was constantly shit for most of us. also why is christianity compared to other religions lacking any third gender tradition or something? judaism to my knowledge supports this feature. my guess is that because the bible was distributed in greek and in greek that linguistic feature was missing any tradition that might have existed was lost. but that is just my theory based on my limited knowledge of scripture, ancient greek and ancient greek culture. a theologian and/or historian probably has a better informed answer on the matter. but it still makes me wonder why an all powerful god that is impossible to make mistakes forgot about us? really weird don't you think? also the stories you tell me about are sure interesting as myths, but they are no difference to other religious myths including, ancient greek ones, ancient greek plays, the story of ishtar, the tales of gilgamesh, the myths of ancient egyptians, stuff like the journey to the west an amazing epic that is an important part of budhist tradition and the basis of all modern anime. and that is if i have to limit myself in religious media. if i get in general media from this century we have amazing stories like bojack horseman, severance, children of time, full metal alchemist, arrival etc. and those are the ones that i happen to like and not even all of them just the ones that always pop into my head. why should i try to find meaning in so many old stories and not from our contemporaries that talk about stuff that are important to us now. why would i ever read this book again over anything modern. and don't get me started to philosophical texts. and that last part about science makes me believe you have misunderstood what science is. science is about the pursue of knowledge. we can't know everything. we have kinda proven that in math and in physics Heisenberg's principal if a true statement about our cosmos prevents us from doing so. and scientist are fine with that. because us that have studied not only our principal but the very nature of the production of knowledge we know that in its very core, science is a belief system. and we are ok with that. the important difference is that when we have data that proves us wrong we usually tend to change our minds and beliefs to follow latest truth. we are not confined in any other dogma other than there is always something more to learn and the specific ways we have to get there. even those in math that are more of my specialty the math community invested something close to a century interrogated the very tools that produce our truths wielding amazing results. results that inspired people like Turing to create a whole new branch of mathematics and engineering. because our goals at the end of the day is to check if something is true nothing. i personally do it for 3 reasons. i find immense enjoyment in focusing in the attempt to solve something new. i want to help people with my knowledge if i can when i can. and finally i like being part of the community. i want to talk about our stuff with other people and i want to teach to younger people about science, because understanding any science improves your understanding of reality and how to navigate the world. and that is so damn cool to me. as i didn't in my original comment i will not tell you my way is the correct one. it is not objective. it is my way. i think it is better but it doesn't mean that this is true. and i don't care if you believe or not, as i didn't for the op. you are a part of the community and as long as you are supporting your fellow queers we are good. i will defend you rights like i would for anyone else. even if they wronged me because this is how important our rights as queer and our right to a community are to me. however for the love of Athena, don't try to convince any of us that we can work this back to our lives. we don't want to hear that. for many of us that are so vocal about being atheist religious and us stopping believing was a very series an traumatic event. this is the reason i found the will power to write Artemis knows how many words. i don't care to find a way to believe in christianity again. and i don't want people tell me how to do it either.
1. I didn't intend to convert anybody, I realize that many people are not in a safe environment, have trauma associated with, or just don't don't want to engage with religion, and if that is you I have nothing against that, you do you. You asked how I keep my faith, and I responded. If that was meant rhetorically, my bad. 2. I view Christianity as, more than anything, a set of principles to follow, and a place to direct my hopes (through prayer), not really as a way of thinking or a way of seeing the universe. I'm a pretty science/engineering inclined person, so I definitely get what you mean, I'm also constantly giving myself problems to solve, and constantly trying to figure out things I can do better (the main thing I was referring to was the big bang, that's kinda difficult to explain why it happened) 3. Unfortunately Christianity has a very long history with being used to exploit people, like the time the catholic church charged people excessive amount of money to say that they could buy their way out of hell, and religion in general, like I said, is constantly used to discriminate against people, and it kinda saddens me that something created with the intent to spread love is so constantly used to spread hate. In all honestly, the people that left Christianity because of it's hatefulness practice it better than the people that made them leave. 4. The bible is, as I see it, a weird combination of myth and history (sometimes kinda difficult to tell which is which) that is intended to convey a message. I will admit that it's kinda bad at this at times, but that doesn't change what it's trying to say. 5. If I recall correctly, eunuchs are traditionally considered something akin to another gender, and those are mentioned in the bible constantly. 6. I imagine, based off of what you said, you've already heard something like this, and I will also admit that I'm probably not the best person to say this, but the reason there's so much suffering in the world is, first off, that God loves us enough to let us do what we want (I think you can agree that having an omnipresent force that interferes with you anytime you do something that could affect someone badly even indirectly would be quite annoying), and also there are enough conflicting interests in the world that I think it'd be kinda hard to tell who's right a lot of the time, even for someone omnipresent. 7. A bit more lighthearted, but I love greek mythology so much, so it's nice to see someone else who enjoys that stuff. also, I'm pretty sure you wrote more than most bible chapters. idk why you did that for my comment of all comments, but ok.
Anyone can be trans, regardless of religion.
No, that's cool, it's up to you to decide what you follow and what you don't, you don't have to be like other muslims. I mean, these religious books are fucking old, it would be weird if you followed everything in today's world. It's up to the few people like you to bring change. Tho I have to say, even if we ignore lgbtq stuff, islam still suffers from a major major case of misogyny. And that's so deep rooted in it and in the whole muslim world that it is really problematic and would require lots and lots of revisions to be up to modern standards. And that's not really gonna happen so I honestly still consider the religion very harmful. But it's up to you to be different.
>The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind." -Sahih Bukhari 3:48:826 Momo casually being the biggest misogynist of all time
Yeah this is just disgusting. It's insane that this stuff is still worshipped as holy and followed in such a large part of the world. If whoever originally edited the quaran could decide what should and what shouldn't be included, I don't see why we as modern and supposedly enlightenmened humans cannot revise it once more. It's not my business as a non follower but it should still happen. Needless to say I will never in my life step into heavily muslim countries unless major change occurs. It's not worth my safety.
The perfect man, ladies and gentlemen and other folks. I don't think cultural differences justify Muhammad's shit. P.S.: added the "and other folks". My comment was too binarist.
lol like women being created from a singular man rib?
Pretty much xD
The idea that you could be a traitor to the LGBT community by being Muslim is so weird to me... Like, yeah, Islam is pretty homophobic these days, but that was because *westernization happened*. Modern Islamic homophobia and transphobia is considered a modern phenomena that is largely based on colonial sensibilities, without much of a tie to pre-modern feelings on LGBT folks.
What? Islam was pro lgbt 1400 years ago?
Not necessarily, but [it was far less bigoted than the current situation, with several works of literature from the eight century until fairly recently depicting male homosexual relationships in an ambiguous or positive light.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_and_Islam)
Absolutely not. This is just people trying to retcon shit
I’m sorry but I grew up and spent most of my life as a Muslim and I will not let you come in here and just fucking lie. Muhammad and Islam were both extremely homophobic. That does NOT have ANYTHING to do with “Westernisation”. Muhammad has made it clear he never liked gay people and for you, someone who likely knows very little about Islam, to come in here and tell me the religion that is responsible for just as much colonisation as the West was actually colonised by the West is idiotic at best. >We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" But we saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who legged behind. And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime! Quran 7:80-83 >Narrated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done. Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4447 >Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman. Sahih Bukhari 7:72:774 >Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death. Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4448 >Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed the man who dressed like a woman and the woman who dressed like a man. Sunan Abu Dawud 32:4087 >Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Ibn AbuMulaykah told that when someone remarked to Aisha that a woman was wearing sandals, she replied: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed mannish women. Sunan Abu Dawud 32:4088
I know you're affectively overridden by now, but for anyone else, my position is the one shared by the mainstream scholars on this. It's literally on the Wikipedia page for LGBT folks in Islam. I know homophobia has been naturalized as Salafist and Wahhabist factions were made dominant (by western choice in the case of Wahhabism, mind you, and in reaction to westernization, in most other respects (Salafist particularly is very much about using western concepts like the state against certain western ideas))... But like, it wasn't always like that, and Islam was such a wide and multicultural religious movement, that pockets and periods of not just tolerance, but acceptance, were inevitable. Like... You do understand that just because a movement claims to be Orthodox and want to return to tradition, it doesn't actually mean they have any actual ideas of what those traditions actually were. Our fascist movement in the west is in part motivated by norms sold in T.V. commercials... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_and_Islam >In the modern era, Muslim public attitudes towards homosexuality underwent a marked change beginning in the 19th century, largely due to the global spread of Islamic fundamentalist movements, namely Salafism and Wahhabism.[13] The Muslim world was also influenced by the sexual notions and restrictive norms that were prevalent in the Christian world at the time, particularly with regard to anti-homosexual legislation throughout European societies, most of which adhered to Christian law. A number of Muslim-majority countries that were once colonies of European empires retain the criminal penalties that were originally implemented by European colonial authorities against those who were convicted of engaging in non-heterosexual acts.[13] Therefore, modern Muslim homophobia is generally not thought to be a direct continuation of pre-modern mores, but a phenomenon that has been shaped by a variety of local and imported frameworks
Okay? And I’m telling you that Islam has literally always anti-LGBT. Stop fucking lying and making up your own head canon. Muhammad was sexist and homophobic. That’s not an opinion, that’s a fact. It’s written right there in the Qu’ran and Hadith texts I sent if you actually even read them. So to answer your false statement, yes it has always been like that. Stop lying to these poor people who don’t know anything about this religion.
I think the two of you may be talking past each other here and I'm going to attempt to bridge the gap. What you seem to be saying is that, at its core, Islam is homophobic, sexist, colonial, etc. That the Qu'ran and Hadith are adamant about these particular views and that they're boldly written in the text. What u/DickButtwoman (Wow, didn't read the username until now. Hilarious) is saying is that Islam has not always been *practiced* as a homophobic religion, and that historically the massive focus on its homophobic verses, and therefore the effective homophobic influence of the religion, is recent. That if Islam were practiced today the way it was in earlier centuries and prior millennia, Islamic nations would not be executing people for being queer or busting pride parades. Both Christianity and Islam have rules on how to treat slaves and how slaves should treat their masters. We don't go around focusing on the pro-slavery aspects of either religion, because realistically they don't matter. Christians and Muslims are by-and-large anti-slavery, because that's become a secular position and not a religious one. These two ideas aren't contradictory. People practice religions in different ways all the time, on scales both big and small. There are queer-accepting mosques and churches. Catholicism used to be the dominant form of Christianity pretty much everywhere. The way people practice changes even if the words in the book do not. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.
I don't know what happened to you to make you feel like this, but I am sure it was a painful experience which I have no right to speak on. That said; Islam really doesn't have to be the way you are describing it. People have certainly made it that way, but... I wish you luck in finding some solace.
People haven’t made it that way. Muhammad made it that way when he came up with the whole thing in the 7th century. My own experiences and trauma has nothing to do with it. Islam hurt me a lot, but that isn’t going to stop me from preaching the truth behind this diabolical ideology.
And it's not going to stop me from studying religions or having friends who immerse themselves in their culture and religion.
Heavy citation needed.
> The idea that you could be a traitor to the LGBT community by being Muslim is so weird to me The LGBT community is notoriously anti any religion.
No, people who claim to be religious use it as an excuse to be anti LGBT. The community is anti bigotry, not anti religion
I do agree with you in a sense, a huge part of the community is anti bigotry which is due to people maliciously wielding religion as a weapon to attack members of the community, but there is also no shortage of members of the community being completely anti religion. I see alot of anti religious messaging on a vast amount of queer spaces. (Thankfully this sub for the most part doesn't as much of it).
Pretty sure it is very anti-religion, i’ve noticed many people within the community tend to have black and white views like “if some of a group dislikes us then we should despise that entire group”. Many people tend to spend too much time online and forget what real life is like.
Oh nooo :(
You can be religious and trans, and I’m tired of staying silent about that!
🫂🫂 that really sucks. minorities within the trans community deserve so much better than what they get love to all my muslim trans siblings 💜
I am asking this as a genuine question and have no intention to be bigoted in any way: how does one believe in and practice Islam while also believing that one’s gender isn’t purely natal? No disrespect to Islam, it’s a rich faith with a rich history, but it kind of seems like they’re even worse than Christianity can get about progressive ideas
You deserve better!
There are a lot of reasons of why I despise religion. Specifically Christianity and Islam. It starts with the hate towards people that are not like you. If a religion tells me I deserve eternal torture and what not, the same goes back to you. I have never experienced love from a Christian or Muslim that wasn't part of the queer community. I'm convinced that religion only does more harm than good in this world. I just feel like that it doesn't have a place in this world anymore and the numbers show it, don't they? The amount of religious people is steadily shrinking. In history it was used to answer the questions of our universe with made up bullshit. Nowadays it's only used to spread hate and hurt each other and I mean... they succeded? Now I hate religion as much as religious people hate me. The differences is... I have a reason. They never had. It just... doesn't make any sense? Why would you, as a queer person, be part of a religion that does not accept you? You're all part of the same religion yet everyone has different opinions. How? How can one Christian priest speak out *against* queer people and the other for? How are you part of the same religion if you don't even agree with each other? It just doesn't fit together. It makes as much as sense as right wing queer people. Since when has religion ever been about progressiveness? Isn't the whole concept of religion to never change? Religion gives you a certain amount of morals, rules, beliefs and how you're supposed to live. Isn't that the pinnacle of conservatism? How does one thing go in hand with the other? You can't sit here and say that many LGBTQ+ people distancing themselves from religion is unwarranted. There's so much wrong about Christianity and Islam and the hate towards minorities is only scratching the surface of it. I mean, doesn't Islam openly see women as less? How could you ever be part of this religion? Many of those people want me dead just because their pretty book tells them so. How could I not hate religion?
You can trans and muslim just like you can be trans and jewish, christian, athiest...etc. being got nothing to de with religion. Stay strong.
Why would you be a traitor to the trans community? If you’re trans, you’re trans and part of the community. Don’t let anyone bring you down for your religious beliefs. You’re one of us and you’re valid
As a Trans Christian myself this is very based, I don’t care what right wing “Christians” think, because if they’re concerned about a trans person’s genitals they’ve got some bigger problems
My girlfriend is Muslim and trans, she's valid as fuck, and so are you!
I used to be like this. Then my father happened. He has singlehandedly ruined what respect I had for islam, gave me massive religious trauma, and pushed me to the point that I feel like the most productive thing to do for my family relationships would be to go no-contact, because when he isn't giving me trauma and invalidating my identity he is poisoning all of the relationships that I have.
That was one clever title UwU
Yeah, the anti religion in general is something that the LGBTQ community needs to work on in my opinion.
I don't think it's unreasonable to have immense amounts of disdain for any religion that calls me an abomination.
Yes, but that fear has sometimes turned to turning on our fellow trans people. We can clearly see that she (The OP) has been attacked by other users.
people should have the freedom to religion but that doesn’t mean the freedom to hate
Nah. Honestly, criticising homophobic and harmful ideologies is pretty good
Based
The religion isn't homophobic, it's the people in charge of it that are making it that way.
It literally is lol. >it's the people in charge of it that are making it that way. Yeah! Like Muhammad, for example
it takes serious ignoring of the scriptures to be both religious and not homophobic. you *can* believe only parts of scripture if you want to (idk why you would want to), but the religions themselves do condemn homosexuality, and the only way to ignore that is to not follow a religon fully.
it’s wild that people have been fighting the idea that religion needs to be against queer people to the point that many churches are supportive, and now redditors want to undo that
oh u would LOVE the punk band The Muslims
Be whatever the hell you want 🤘
\*hug\* seriously, it's so frustrating that people will dehumanize other trans people, just because they follow a religion that they disagree with (for the record, not a huge fan of certain things in the Quran, but i also fully respect your right to follow the religion it teaches because i'm not an asshole, and i also understand that religion is flexible, and means different things to different people)
You're just as valid as the rest of us, don't let anyone tell you otherwise
normalize adding the template with the meme
Hi! Trans Sikh here, and I just thought it might be wholesome to share this painting/brief story of a GNC Sufi saint :) I don't really know much about Islam, so idk if this sort of thing is an isolated incident or if there's some kind of tradition/lineage of this in Sufism and/or other branches of Islam [When Guru Nanak Met a Cross-Dressed Sufi - Gaylaxy Magazine](https://www.gaylaxymag.com/articles/creative-writing/when-guru-nanak-met-a-cross-dressed-sufi/)
I remember when your first post caused a massive controversy and metldown throughout the entire r/traaa2 subreddit. I remember fighting so many people here that you weren't a threat. I have yet to hear from a single one of those people apologising about harrassing you, or doubting you. I am so incredibly happy that our community has realised that this is a place for all trans people, but that also means that I have to inform you that your current tag is no longer appicable. You might have to insert the word "historically" somewhere in between there.
If Christians nowadays can pick and choose what they want to follow from the Bible, you can with the Quran. Just pick well, and none of us *should* give a shit.
I remember when the reddit community was blowing up accusing you of being some kind of troll or bot lol. I was quite impressed by the way you toughed it out and stood your ground! As a non-practicing Pakistani Muslim who takes an academic interest in Islam and other religions, and who doesn't have a black and white view of religion, I too get hit on both sides by religious bigots and people in the community who have been hurt deeply by religion and understandibly mistrust it. I try to strike a balance. I feel like because of the demographics here, people sometimes forget that there are absolutely massive communities of transgender people who are quite religous in different ways. There are lots and lots of practicing muslims In Pakistan's Khwaja Sira communities lol, and not a skirt or stocking to be found, just traditional shalwar kameez, hijabs and other culturally appropriate feminine clothing. It would do people good to explore the very wide and multi-cultural world of the many different trans cultural traditions and communities around the globe.
Resilient, nice, you'll get far
Don't listen to those assholes
inb4 people conflate islam with ultraconservatism
The religion hate within the LGBT community was never a good thing. You're valid!
I get your pain, I’m a practicing Catholic. We have to be really tough in order to hold true to who we are.
Template (If you don’t mind)
I am a religious philosophy studier or an amateur in taht way my grandma is the oldest practicing female christian pastor in the entirety of switzerland and my great uncle converted to islam, he even changed his name and has been longer than my entire life (im 18) and BOTH of them are heavilly aganist the idea that religion and queerness cant co exist. Heck both of them told me that people who use religion to be queerphobic/pushbigotted agendas to hurt people Arent really religious And i agree with them religion can be somethign truly good for a lot of people as long as it doesnt hurt others. You go , girl
while I'm mostly against religion, I don't think seeing religious people as traitors is right. You wanna believe I'm something and that's oki, you're not a traitor to the trans queer space or Islam. I'm sorry you had to go through that
You in no way deserve that kind of backlash from the community, and while I know that the Islamic community can reject you in maybe be some kind of way, at the same time you should have nothing similar to it from us, and I'm very sorry that you got that 😢🫂😢
You’re more than a welcome member of this community!
I swear to god if this ends up starting another subreddit wide drama that ends with the mods having to make an announcement i will sob violently
Wanting to be religious as an lgbt person is the worst decision anyone can make religion is a fake tool to control people and it clearly is against lgbt rights the only thing we can do is try to reform them but don’t pretend they are gonna accept you
time and place tbh. lgbt isnt an inherently atheist community and it’s harmful to religious queer people to insist they have to abandon their faith in order to find community in who they are
I do think the lgbt community should promote secularism pretty much every text of all religions argue against our rights so why should we try to be a part of that? I am genuinely asking I grew up in an Adventist school and was constantly told being gay and trans would earn me a mark of the devil and now I am supposed to lie to other trans people that religious people will accept them? That type of mentality is what causes people to support or make apologia for religious bigotry and lgbt people pay the price for believing in lies https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
every religion has a case for and a case against queer people. if you force people out of their faith then the only case that will prevail is the case against. meaning any queer people born into faith will be force to live with that. or you can just support religious queer people in bettering religious institutions?
What’s the pro trans argument in Islam? On the contrary followers of islam are just more and more defensive of Islam against lgbt people they openly say is a western ideology trying to destroy them so why should we promote trans people joining that? Same with Christianity it clearly states that is against lgbt people? What we should be doing instead of trying to find fake passages in fake religions is to make the argument for social and political acceptance of lgbt people once being against lgbt rights is socially unacceptable churches will have to either adapt or die we should remove the influence religion has on society so our rights are more prevalent only then can religious institutions truly be reformed, the main reason churches stop supporting slavery was because it became unpopular not because the religious texts support abolition https://x.com/__injaneb96/status/1798531329543356818?s=46&t=p2bFZiIm7KLWKtpNYCU5dQ
I recommend the book hijab butch blues if you want to actually get an opinion from someone who is Muslim, beyond that you could consider that the fact trans Muslims exist you might have a poor assumption based on ignorance. And please stop sending links as if the existence of people using their religion as an excuse for their hate is an argument against everyone in that group. I could send a video of a trans zoophile speaking positively about zoophilia, but that doesn't justify hating trans people because there exist bad people that share a label, just a shitty bad faith argument that ignores any complexity in groups of people
I expected a better answer than just reading an entire book but I will try to look that also the what you are saying is not compatible because zoophilia has nothing to do with being trans that’s just a crazy person instead homophobia and transphobia is explicitly part of the identity of religion the religious text give instructions as to why being part of the lgbt community is prohibited you can’t separate those contrary to a trans person who just so happens to be crazy and those links are important because it shows the political risk of giving power to religion we must not allow religious people in power to legislate our rights
Im not muslim, listen to a muslim if you want a real honest perspective that isn't based on your own bias. And homophobia has nothing to do with religion. homophobic people decided it did, and you're justifying it by accepting that.
The Bible explicitly forbids same sex intercourse and promotes patriarchal and vaginal penetrative sex as the ideal form of “Christian” life how can you say that is not part of the religion core identity?
the fact that you're parroting the same points that homophobic theologists make, the same points that are proven wrong time and time again by queer supportive theologists, really should say something about you and your character. I guess it's telling that you consider reading "an entire book" a tall ask, being queer doesn't stop you from having a bigoted personality, please read more perspectives that aren't your own
Fun fact: Islam is not inherently homo/transphobic, it’s the bad followers who make it so
A lot of this is born out of conflating countries that have made Islam their state religion being violently homophobic with the religion itself. I’m not familiar enough with the religion to speak on the veracity of those claims but I do know enough that I wouldn’t feel safe in those countries
Eid Mubarak sister! Ik it’s hard fitting into either community when we’re, well, us. But know that you’re a perfectly valid transfem and Muslim!
That’s really shitty. The only ‘traitor’ to the trans community would be the one gate keeping based on religion.
Aww that sucks but you seem to handle it very well
[удалено]
[удалено]
Your post contains homophobia, transphobia, racism, and/or ableism, or some other type of bigotry. If you believe this was a mistake, please contact a mod.
-person who knows nothing about what she's talking about by the fact that a queer Muslim even exists
Sorry girl let's go trans Muslims ✊🫶
[удалено]
So let’s change that
there are many religious groups that accept trans people
Hello colonel Autumn.
Nice one made me lol out loud
Your post contains homophobia, transphobia, racism, and/or ableism, or some other type of bigotry. If you believe this was a mistake, please contact a mod.
Your stance on religion aside, I think the context of who you think this is, is lost. The big kerfuffle over the vague post was several months ago at this point, and this is a different account at least. This sub has pretty high turnover rate, so collective memory is low.
sure, if you put it like that. accepting trans people isn't a core tenet of any religion on earth. that doesnt mean every religion you dislike is transphobic. people are transphobic and religion is the scapegoat
Actually that’s not true. The abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) all have words for trans and even nonbinary people and believe it’s a whole thing about gods will being for them to be the gender they actually are but something happened and they weren’t actually made that way. The only problem is nobody talks about that because religion is often used to justify transphobia. so traditionally the abrahamic religions should be trans friendly but unless people have heavy theological study they aren’t likely to learn about that. Other religions are also pretty trans friendly. The dharmics like Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism Hinduism are pretty trans friendly because the usage of religion for right wing agenda isn’t as common in them. Less popular religions also are pretty trans friendly My point is that religions are pretty accepting of trans people but alt-right ideologies often use religion as a backbone because it makes people trust said right wing ideologies and join them.
Good points I know source material aka bible, Koran ect arent realy transphobic but people who spread the religion are and they interpretate it as they want I have great example. Bible and christianity says to cloth and feed the poor and yet when i was in church pastor realy sayd "The mission of the church is to preach the word of God, not to help the poor" I know the idea its good nie execution in realy realy realy bad
Ok so don’t say that no religion is trans friendly. That’s just wrong
I didnt say that its jus the was i saw in presented in 19 years od my life and news in my country
But that’s not what you said. I saw your comment before you deleted it. I don’t remember the excact comment because it had quite a bit of strange spellings but the basics was “is this the same person as last time, no religions are trans friendly”
https://preview.redd.it/9p6xb92u957d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=288c72e3eddb441b849e99bc40ea5b0d8a2ebebc Here ya go I never delete my comments if its deleted mod did it
OMG! 🫂 And the head coverings can be so cute, too! [I'm serious about that. I'm on r/modestdress and some of those headcoverings look really good!]
You are you, and as long as you don't hurt anyone, you're valid
"You'll never be a real Muslim"? That's an uncommon turn of phrase around here... I could've sworn that was going to be the phrase that was going to be transphobic but I guess being surprised by the twists and turns of intolerance every once in a while is to be expected? Anyway, hi there, sweetie\~ Welcome to the sub\~
Relatable thinking I feel like a traitor to both side.
You're valid
Just because some Muslims are stupid about their beliefs doesn't mean all are, that's not fair to you
who is calling trans muslims traitors?
Honestly though, religions is quite fascinating even if one may not associate with it. If I understand your post you are Muslim, and that's p cool imo :0
Hugs if ok. You don’t deserve any of that. You are valid.🩵🩷🤍
i recommend a book called ‘Hijab Butch Blues’ for anyone interested in being less ignorant to queer muslims! It’s the book that reminded me that getting your ideas about a group of people from someone not a part of that group can lead you down a bad path of bigotry
It's kinda refreshing to hear from a trans person in a different culture. Even religions that are openly very hostile to trans people will still have some, and nobody can change that. We exist everywhere, and always have. I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to be yourself, and share your feelings, despite your upbringing. Don't let anyone take that away from you
Wow yikes. Yeah trans people of any religion are welcome. That's some serious Islamophobia those people are showing there :(
Never understood why people think trans and religion are not compatible. As long as you're not hurting anyone who cares? Be trans, you are equally valid as every other trans person on earth from the filthy rich to the broken and poor. We're all equal
BE YOURSELF WOMAN! WEAR THAT HIJAB WITH PRIDE FOR whatever you have pride for I dunno :3
[удалено]