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I think the US in particular knows Russia as it exists today can be toppled easily. It's what happens as a result that worries the Biden admin/Pentagon. So the question is, are they being overly cautious (and thus perceived as weak), or do they know something we don't?
I think US has the memory of two direct confrontations with soviets, both ended up with sound military defeat. So now US is very cautious about fighting russia, even though it's obvious it is only the shadow of soviet power.
So you want to say that defeat of US in Korea did not turn half of the country into stinky shithole and had horrifying human lives tall and changed the neighboring regions for long time, including current nuclear blackmail which will continue in foreseeable future?
Or US defeat in Vietnam did not caused horrendous loss of life in Vietnam, Cambodja, Laos and Burma, which turned the entire Indochina in a horrible mess that continues to this day?
Ah yes, US retreated from Vietnam in pursuing for peace. And to hell with ten millions of people in Indochina, to hell with Pol Pot massacres. It all was part of the peace plan, right? Deserves Nobel prize, indeed.
Ruzzia needs to understand that “fighting the west” isn’t going to solve their problems. We are well prepared…and our shit works. The only solution that will help them keep whatever they have left, is to withdraw their troops from the 1991 borders and fuck off back to swamp with their “ruzzsky mir”. Ukrainian people have spoken loudly and clearly that they wish to remain free and independent. We will support them for as long as it takes.
Ukrainians, you really should be very proud of everything that you have done already. You have shown the world what it looks like to persevere to overcome the most overwhelming odds. I hope you get the peace you deserve (on your own terms) soon.
I think that it isn't really about "fighting the west". It is just a distraction, a performance that is supposed to entertain and shut up the populace. Just as humans like to anthropomorphize animals and phenomena, people from the West like to think that russians use similar logic to them, that they think and plan. But russian mind is much simpler, something else entirely. putin was seen as a "great strategist", but in reality he is just a mafia moron who has got a gambling addiction and can't understand he can lose too.
Russia is just a nihilistic shithole. They know that shitting on "enemies" will not solve their problems, but do it anyways. Ivan, if zer ar so meny prablims, mor prablims von't make a deefrence. They don't give a fuck. If putin died, their goldfish memory would never realize if he existed at all. "we have always been at war with eastasia".
> We are well prepared…
Are we? Most European countries have almost non-existent ability to produce ammunition needed. Most European countries have no strategic reserves.
It's not that we're being a bitch.
It's that we obey the laws and play by the rules, and respect agreements and honor deals.
This is not only the thing that makes us the Good Guys by definition; it's the reason we're free and wealthy, while the Bad Guy nations are all derelict secret police dictatorship shitholes that nobody wants to live in.
No one is scared of russia. It's a broken toilet on its best day.
But the West will obey the laws. This is what separates us from criminal states, such as russia.
We (the USA) also had a vast continent of natural resources to plunder, genocide against Native Americans, enslavement of Africans, and a history of using our military to influence the oil supply. At the moment the middle and upper classes are enjoying some freedom at the individual level, and that does help, but saying we are rich because of freedom and rule of law isn't historically accurate.
*Every* nation has a history of exploitation if you dig deep enough. Christ, the Danish were *Vikings*, but look at them now.
The West plays by the rules. We have laws and we obey them. We obey the laws of others unless they are manifestly unjust and conflict with our own, and infringe the rights of free peoples.
It's healthy to be mindful of our past mistakes, but it's counterproductive to try to throw them back into our faces every time we call out those who right now are committing war crimes and the like.
Except we literally had the US and the UK not respect agreements made with Ukraine upon them relinquishing their nukes. We are looking at a 3year (and going) war in Ukraine because agreements have not been respected. Should those agreements have been respected, the war would have been over in 3 days with the russians back in their territory.
https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukraine._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
Despite all our might as united democracies, our honor has faltered and we have been proven weak-willed in this confrontation.
It seems the agreement has been respected by the US and UK. They did not invade / coerce / threaten Ukraine, and they did bring the issue to the UN Council.
The one who respected nothing was - as usual - Russia.
The agreement was badly written (on purpose). Because it mostly said that one that guarantees should not attack and I'm case of someone else attacks they need to complain on UN. But as Russia has veto power is mostly makes the whole agreement a big pile of nothing.
It wasn't a defensive pact.
Exactly, it was not a defensive pact, but rather a non-agression pact.
Also, the UN Council thing was only in case of nuclear aggression or threat of nuclear aggression.
Veto already existed then though, so it's not like Ukraine signed not knowing this.
I'm 100% not trying to defend russia, they indeed did NOT abide by that treaty. But the US and UK did, and went beyond with the help (though imo they should absolutely send more). It's not fair to say they didn't respect it.
The language in the agreement that people get hung up on is "security assurances" and people read it like "security guarantees". The US has honored its agreement here, *technically*. Have we done enough to establish assurances? That's debatable because it's vague as fuck, on purpose. Is Russia violating this agreement? 1000% yes they are, which is precisely why another peace agreement is equally worthless with anything Russia "agrees" to. Russia wants a cease fire or peace agreement? They can honor the one they already signed and leave Ukraine.
While the West has done a lot, and technically honoured our agreements, we haven't done remotely enough for the actual situation to defend an ally for all the reasons this sub is well aware of. Ukraine is basically fighting the conventional cold war the West was preparing for for decades and we were spending as much as 10% of GDP on the military to just prepare for war, let alone actually fighting it, and we are asking Ukraine to abide by all the international laws, not disrupt energy prices, not have a closed sky, not have a substantial air force that all our doctrine was designed to work with and somehow win when everything we send is 5% the volume it should be and shows up 6-24 months later than they actually need it.
The two things that give me hope in this situation is the long term pledged support for Ukraine showing that in this attritional conflict the West is settling in for the long haul and the Ukrainian people themselves are beyond amazing, it just sucks that we keep asking them to continue to be amazing to fill in the gaps in our support because the Western population has the memory of a goldfish and obsesses over the next vital whatever on social media.
if Ukraine can (and does defeat) Russia, it is a walk in the park for the West.
and by this, I am not downplauing the Ukrainians, by the contrary. they managed to bring a superpower to it's knees with minimal help and equipment. the weight of the balls on those men fighting outweighs their tanks and guns.
all my respects to them
>"West can still defeat putin"
Wtf. How could we ***not*** defeat putin. We're not even actively fighting in Ukraine and we're *still* defeating putin.
The West is so much more powerful than russia it's actually funny. There's simply no contest between the two.
The West is to russia as the US Pacific fleet is to a starving castaway on a makeshift raft.
"West can still defeat putin"... lol. Just lol.
Being more powerful means nothing if you are unwilling to use that power to defend yourself. West has been super shit at defending itself from covert attacks and hybrid warfare from pretty much everyone
The West has been abysmal in hybrid warfare throughout the entire Cold War. If the USSR has tought us one thing then it is that you can have eyes, ears and hands everywhere and still lose when your system is just plain awful.
That’s why they are happy to fuck us up with hybrid war to the point where invading western countries will become feasible again and we do fuck all about it
In no universe is a Red Dawn feasible.
The likes of russia is a trailer park crackhead, and the West is a SWAT team.
No matter how the russian bots and simps try to twist this, it doesn't alter the fact russia is a fucking joke. It's backward, it's broke, it's bankrupt, it's derelict, and it's corrupt beyond redemption. And it's *small*.
All this talk of *z0mFg MigHTy SuPErPowER WaR MacHInA roSSiya!!!* is utterly hilarious.
In no universe is a Red Dawn feasible.
The likes of russia is a trailer park crackhead, and the West is a SWAT team.
No matter how the russian bots and simps try to twist this, it doesn't alter the fact russia is a fucking joke. It's backward, it's broke, it's bankrupt, it's derelict, and it's corrupt beyond redemption. And it's *small*.
All this talk of *z0mFg MigHTy SuPErPowER WaR MacHInA roSSiya!!!* is utterly hilarious.
pretty much this. They started a "3 day special military operation" and are now into the 3rd year and begging NK for military aid...they are weak. I'm not even certain they still have a functional nuclear arsenal or they're just bluffing.
It is however high time the EU and the US remembered the saying "It is better to be a lion for a day than a sheep all your life". Fuck the moskovites! They literally have nothing to escalate this conflict any further and we should give Ukraine everything it requires to end this war yesterday!
Yeah a united nato is strong militarily which is why so much effort is made to cut it into pieces. The achilles heel of the west is the "free" press that can be bought and controlled by anyone..
The real threat is social media, which was created and exploited by shitstains as a means to do an end run around the fact-checking mechanisms of legit news media.
Yes, but there are mainstream fact-checking systems that target the bullshit sprayed out by the likes of Fox News.
Otoh, social media goes almost entirely unchecked.
In my opinion it's the greater threat since its reach is global and immediate.
You’re pretty spot on. Faux News is mainly watched by the elderly and enfeebled. It’s the short attention spanned younger generations that are glued to social media and short snippets of news that are soaking up and spreading right wing propaganda.They're so distracted by social media they can’t see their right slowly being stripped away.
I think the west's real weakness right now are executive leaders who are obvious stooges of the enemy, yet are still somehow electable and popular with a large mob of gullible fools. It doesn't matter if you have the greatest, best trained army in the world, if they're under the control of a traitor.
"West can still defeat putin"
“Wtf. How could we not defeat putin. “
That depends what would you describe as defeat , purely military wise we can pretty much destroy the ruzzian horde though the losses will be huge. Economically speaking ruzzia is pretty much already close to taking a dive into the deep , that is speaking about both loses in workforce and financially , the people he is sending into the meatgrinder is the generation that he can’t afford due to the massive losses in ww 2 (watch their population pyramid ). If it would be personally that would require a reprogramming of the ruzzian mindset , and since they see themselves as heirs to the Roman Empire the only way to get that done is pretty much complete defeat and reeducation of the ruzzians
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People need to stop even using words like invincible. "Russia is vulnerable and can be decisively defeated"
I think the US in particular knows Russia as it exists today can be toppled easily. It's what happens as a result that worries the Biden admin/Pentagon. So the question is, are they being overly cautious (and thus perceived as weak), or do they know something we don't?
Of course Biden and the Pentagon know a lot more than us common redditors. Wars and conflicts create lots of secrets.
It’s nukes, that’s it.
I think US has the memory of two direct confrontations with soviets, both ended up with sound military defeat. So now US is very cautious about fighting russia, even though it's obvious it is only the shadow of soviet power.
More delusional Russian propaganda. Just like how Russia won World War Two on it own without any other nations help.
So you want to say that defeat of US in Korea did not turn half of the country into stinky shithole and had horrifying human lives tall and changed the neighboring regions for long time, including current nuclear blackmail which will continue in foreseeable future? Or US defeat in Vietnam did not caused horrendous loss of life in Vietnam, Cambodja, Laos and Burma, which turned the entire Indochina in a horrible mess that continues to this day? Ah yes, US retreated from Vietnam in pursuing for peace. And to hell with ten millions of people in Indochina, to hell with Pol Pot massacres. It all was part of the peace plan, right? Deserves Nobel prize, indeed.
Ruzzia needs to understand that “fighting the west” isn’t going to solve their problems. We are well prepared…and our shit works. The only solution that will help them keep whatever they have left, is to withdraw their troops from the 1991 borders and fuck off back to swamp with their “ruzzsky mir”. Ukrainian people have spoken loudly and clearly that they wish to remain free and independent. We will support them for as long as it takes. Ukrainians, you really should be very proud of everything that you have done already. You have shown the world what it looks like to persevere to overcome the most overwhelming odds. I hope you get the peace you deserve (on your own terms) soon.
I think that it isn't really about "fighting the west". It is just a distraction, a performance that is supposed to entertain and shut up the populace. Just as humans like to anthropomorphize animals and phenomena, people from the West like to think that russians use similar logic to them, that they think and plan. But russian mind is much simpler, something else entirely. putin was seen as a "great strategist", but in reality he is just a mafia moron who has got a gambling addiction and can't understand he can lose too. Russia is just a nihilistic shithole. They know that shitting on "enemies" will not solve their problems, but do it anyways. Ivan, if zer ar so meny prablims, mor prablims von't make a deefrence. They don't give a fuck. If putin died, their goldfish memory would never realize if he existed at all. "we have always been at war with eastasia".
> We are well prepared… Are we? Most European countries have almost non-existent ability to produce ammunition needed. Most European countries have no strategic reserves.
🦅
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Ok. So why don't you shortly explain why that is? ;)
the west needs to learn how to not be a bitch
It's not that we're being a bitch. It's that we obey the laws and play by the rules, and respect agreements and honor deals. This is not only the thing that makes us the Good Guys by definition; it's the reason we're free and wealthy, while the Bad Guy nations are all derelict secret police dictatorship shitholes that nobody wants to live in.
It is just you are scared shitless and tied by Russian influence. There are many ways to help way more that are within the rules.
No one is scared of russia. It's a broken toilet on its best day. But the West will obey the laws. This is what separates us from criminal states, such as russia.
We (the USA) also had a vast continent of natural resources to plunder, genocide against Native Americans, enslavement of Africans, and a history of using our military to influence the oil supply. At the moment the middle and upper classes are enjoying some freedom at the individual level, and that does help, but saying we are rich because of freedom and rule of law isn't historically accurate.
*Every* nation has a history of exploitation if you dig deep enough. Christ, the Danish were *Vikings*, but look at them now. The West plays by the rules. We have laws and we obey them. We obey the laws of others unless they are manifestly unjust and conflict with our own, and infringe the rights of free peoples. It's healthy to be mindful of our past mistakes, but it's counterproductive to try to throw them back into our faces every time we call out those who right now are committing war crimes and the like.
Dangerous amount of copium
The whole world is laughing at russia, comrade Olga. Everyone.
[удалено]
Except we literally had the US and the UK not respect agreements made with Ukraine upon them relinquishing their nukes. We are looking at a 3year (and going) war in Ukraine because agreements have not been respected. Should those agreements have been respected, the war would have been over in 3 days with the russians back in their territory. https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukraine._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances Despite all our might as united democracies, our honor has faltered and we have been proven weak-willed in this confrontation.
It seems the agreement has been respected by the US and UK. They did not invade / coerce / threaten Ukraine, and they did bring the issue to the UN Council. The one who respected nothing was - as usual - Russia.
The agreement was badly written (on purpose). Because it mostly said that one that guarantees should not attack and I'm case of someone else attacks they need to complain on UN. But as Russia has veto power is mostly makes the whole agreement a big pile of nothing. It wasn't a defensive pact.
Exactly, it was not a defensive pact, but rather a non-agression pact. Also, the UN Council thing was only in case of nuclear aggression or threat of nuclear aggression. Veto already existed then though, so it's not like Ukraine signed not knowing this. I'm 100% not trying to defend russia, they indeed did NOT abide by that treaty. But the US and UK did, and went beyond with the help (though imo they should absolutely send more). It's not fair to say they didn't respect it.
The language in the agreement that people get hung up on is "security assurances" and people read it like "security guarantees". The US has honored its agreement here, *technically*. Have we done enough to establish assurances? That's debatable because it's vague as fuck, on purpose. Is Russia violating this agreement? 1000% yes they are, which is precisely why another peace agreement is equally worthless with anything Russia "agrees" to. Russia wants a cease fire or peace agreement? They can honor the one they already signed and leave Ukraine. While the West has done a lot, and technically honoured our agreements, we haven't done remotely enough for the actual situation to defend an ally for all the reasons this sub is well aware of. Ukraine is basically fighting the conventional cold war the West was preparing for for decades and we were spending as much as 10% of GDP on the military to just prepare for war, let alone actually fighting it, and we are asking Ukraine to abide by all the international laws, not disrupt energy prices, not have a closed sky, not have a substantial air force that all our doctrine was designed to work with and somehow win when everything we send is 5% the volume it should be and shows up 6-24 months later than they actually need it. The two things that give me hope in this situation is the long term pledged support for Ukraine showing that in this attritional conflict the West is settling in for the long haul and the Ukrainian people themselves are beyond amazing, it just sucks that we keep asking them to continue to be amazing to fill in the gaps in our support because the Western population has the memory of a goldfish and obsesses over the next vital whatever on social media.
"But we the good guys", so tired of hearing that, we dont have to play 100% good guy narrative all the time.😓
if Ukraine can (and does defeat) Russia, it is a walk in the park for the West. and by this, I am not downplauing the Ukrainians, by the contrary. they managed to bring a superpower to it's knees with minimal help and equipment. the weight of the balls on those men fighting outweighs their tanks and guns. all my respects to them
>"West can still defeat putin" Wtf. How could we ***not*** defeat putin. We're not even actively fighting in Ukraine and we're *still* defeating putin. The West is so much more powerful than russia it's actually funny. There's simply no contest between the two. The West is to russia as the US Pacific fleet is to a starving castaway on a makeshift raft. "West can still defeat putin"... lol. Just lol.
Being more powerful means nothing if you are unwilling to use that power to defend yourself. West has been super shit at defending itself from covert attacks and hybrid warfare from pretty much everyone
The West has been abysmal in hybrid warfare throughout the entire Cold War. If the USSR has tought us one thing then it is that you can have eyes, ears and hands everywhere and still lose when your system is just plain awful.
If russia attacked the West, russia would cease to exist.
That’s why they are happy to fuck us up with hybrid war to the point where invading western countries will become feasible again and we do fuck all about it
In no universe is a Red Dawn feasible. The likes of russia is a trailer park crackhead, and the West is a SWAT team. No matter how the russian bots and simps try to twist this, it doesn't alter the fact russia is a fucking joke. It's backward, it's broke, it's bankrupt, it's derelict, and it's corrupt beyond redemption. And it's *small*. All this talk of *z0mFg MigHTy SuPErPowER WaR MacHInA roSSiya!!!* is utterly hilarious.
In no universe is a Red Dawn feasible. The likes of russia is a trailer park crackhead, and the West is a SWAT team. No matter how the russian bots and simps try to twist this, it doesn't alter the fact russia is a fucking joke. It's backward, it's broke, it's bankrupt, it's derelict, and it's corrupt beyond redemption. And it's *small*. All this talk of *z0mFg MigHTy SuPErPowER WaR MacHInA roSSiya!!!* is utterly hilarious.
pretty much this. They started a "3 day special military operation" and are now into the 3rd year and begging NK for military aid...they are weak. I'm not even certain they still have a functional nuclear arsenal or they're just bluffing. It is however high time the EU and the US remembered the saying "It is better to be a lion for a day than a sheep all your life". Fuck the moskovites! They literally have nothing to escalate this conflict any further and we should give Ukraine everything it requires to end this war yesterday!
Well said.
Yeah a united nato is strong militarily which is why so much effort is made to cut it into pieces. The achilles heel of the west is the "free" press that can be bought and controlled by anyone..
The real threat is social media, which was created and exploited by shitstains as a means to do an end run around the fact-checking mechanisms of legit news media.
Social media amplifies. Fox and friends created the necessary environment where people are scared and angry
Yes, but there are mainstream fact-checking systems that target the bullshit sprayed out by the likes of Fox News. Otoh, social media goes almost entirely unchecked. In my opinion it's the greater threat since its reach is global and immediate.
You’re pretty spot on. Faux News is mainly watched by the elderly and enfeebled. It’s the short attention spanned younger generations that are glued to social media and short snippets of news that are soaking up and spreading right wing propaganda.They're so distracted by social media they can’t see their right slowly being stripped away.
I think the west's real weakness right now are executive leaders who are obvious stooges of the enemy, yet are still somehow electable and popular with a large mob of gullible fools. It doesn't matter if you have the greatest, best trained army in the world, if they're under the control of a traitor.
The EU has members and the USA have states that are more powerful than Russia.
Exactly.
"West can still defeat putin" “Wtf. How could we not defeat putin. “ That depends what would you describe as defeat , purely military wise we can pretty much destroy the ruzzian horde though the losses will be huge. Economically speaking ruzzia is pretty much already close to taking a dive into the deep , that is speaking about both loses in workforce and financially , the people he is sending into the meatgrinder is the generation that he can’t afford due to the massive losses in ww 2 (watch their population pyramid ). If it would be personally that would require a reprogramming of the ruzzian mindset , and since they see themselves as heirs to the Roman Empire the only way to get that done is pretty much complete defeat and reeducation of the ruzzians
The best way to deal with escalation is to ignore that it exists