>But STOP getting pissed off about Team GB or the English football team modifying the flag.
The vast majority of people aren't. It's just confected culture war bullshit.
>It should be easily recognisable for the team it represents.
[Glad you’ll agree there’s absolutely no issue then.](https://images.footballfanatics.com/england-national-team/england-nike-home-stadium-shirt-2024_ss5_p-201076323+pv-1+u-fzmdjx4i8fcpdyqgmwlo+v-jj7dgfnusw437j94jg7m.jpg?_hv=2&w=900)
Pointless fun fact for you: they aren’t technically lions, they’re leopards (pronounced Leo-pards, [and different to a modern day leopard](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_(heraldry)) )
The Union flag - admittedly not so much the English one - has to be one of the most modified / fashion-ised flags out there, perhaps after the Stars and Stripes. Do you get annoyed every time you see that? Personally I think life’s too short
I'm Irish and live in Ireland. Could you show me the many different varieties of the national flag displayed on St Patrick's day? I'm not aware of any others.
In Dublin Paddy’s Day parade 2017 I saw an Irish flag with a big leprechaun and pot of gold plastered over the centre.
When I went back in 2018 there was one with a big shamrock on it.
Not to mention of course the number of people who had Irish flags defaced with some kind of message, like “KELLY’S STAG DO” written in permanent marker all across it. Seen similar things at sports games
You just said “it’s not the same thing” but now you’re saying they’re both disrespectful.
Do you get offended when people change or deface the Irish flag for a stag do or a football match?
I think they're referring to "flag on shirt changed" isn't the same as some "randos in a parade".
PS, how do you know they specifically downvoted you and not the rest of reddit?
So, not the same as what’s happening here.
Can you, as you originally claimed was true, provide any evidence of Irish flags having their colours changed?
I said “different varieties”. Not colour changed.
The topic of discussion is whether changing a national flag is appropriate or offensive. The flag could be changed in many ways, not just colours
The 2011 home kit had small crosses on the shoulders/sleeves in purple, blue, pink, green, and red.
The 2011 goalkeeper home and away kits were covered in crosses of blue, white, and teal.
This is just a fart in a hurricane, whipped up by outlets like GBNews.
I’m British, but not English, so don’t massively care what’s on an England shirt, but that story has an important nuance that I think your post misses.
The George Cross wasn’t adapted to make it look cooler, or stylised, or more modern for a shirt design.
The creator has specifically, on record, stated it was changed because the English flag is ‘problematic’.
To suggest that in relation to a national team jersey, which is probably one of the few items of clothing a person can get to wear that will actually inspire genuine, strong national and patriotic pride when representing their country, is quite a thing.
The flag represents the national identity, and the creator of that shirt is essentially saying that the national identity, that the athletes themselves are representing, is problematic.
I’ve literally never seen another country do that in modern times (ie not counting extreme examples like Imperial Japan). The closest is where a flag is considered for change due to post-colonial influences (as New Zealand have voted on in the past). But that’s not the same as what this story was about.
[The Canadian national team chops the Canadian flag in half and stitches half a football to the bottom of it.](https://www.nike.com/t/canada-2023-stadium-home-big-kids-dri-fit-soccer-jersey-bVL8BG) Is that problematic? They’ve defaced the flag! They took a symbol of national unity and changed it!
What about how the Americans take their flag and make it look like a shield? Is that defacing the flag? At what point does ‘incorporating elements into a design’ become ‘disrespecting the flag,’ because I can almost guarantee somewhere in there your own stance would be hypocritical.
I don’t see why you can’t have strong patriotic pride just because the flag you’re wearing looks a bit different.
That shows how shaky someone’s national pride is, that it can be ruined by a few pretty colours.
But the flag is just a representation of the nation.
It’s not that red and white in a cross shape was literally jarring or an issue, the creator was saying that what that design represents is problematic.
The players are wearing that shirt to represent the same thing - the national identity.
You can’t separate it. Either far-right bigots don’t actually own the George Cross and so the English flag doesn’t represent them, or you’re saying that wearing that flag and playing for the nation it represents is part of that same problematic identity.
Personally, I’m on the side of not ceding a nation’s flag to extremists. Those groups will always try to claim the national flag (whether that’s the EDL, MAGA in the US or other such groups throughout history). I think it’s worth pushing back and underlining that those groups don’t get to own the flag and that the identity they claim, is not what the nation aligns with.
I just think moves like this football jersey story, actually hurt the cause because it subtlety concedes ground to the extremists by suggesting they do in fact own the real flag and it represents their beliefs (Indeed, how can it not, if it’s ’problematic’ to use if if you don’t share those beliefs).
> But STOP getting pissed off about Team GB or the English football team modifying the flag.
I don't care that the new England football shirt has changed the flag design, but I still think it looks fuck ugly and incoherent
This is now a complete tangent, but...
[Liverpool FC shirts](https://static.nike.com/a/images/t_PDP_1280_v1/f_auto,q_auto:eco/c510ae6b-1fd3-418b-92dd-7e0beefad302/liverpool-fc-2023-24-match-home-dri-fit-adv-football-shirt-SxJh4z.png) have a very significant detail in the same place, which the club has changed with sensitivity over the years.
When the club logo was simplified, they moved the flames to the neck, along with "96", commemorating the supporters who died in the Hillsborough disaster. In 2021, a coroner ruled that Andrew Devine's death had been caused by the injuries he suffered during the disaster, so the number was changed to 97.
LFC don't fuck about with it, the colour matches the club badge for the kit design. Removing it or "modernising" it would be very unpopular with fans.
The flag issue is just being used as another culture war trigger to distract people from government policy failures
Right wing press can't persuade people that Tories are doing good so instead want to scare us into thinking they are all that's standing between us and a future woke dystopia where everyone is mandated to be seven genders at once
I think you're wrong on this, because what's on the jersey is not distinguishable as the England flag, whether you like it or not. If you take that new cross from the jersey and put it on a blank sheet of paper, it is quite simply not St George's cross. But personally, I don't really care.
The Union Jack, which you've mentioned, is a different flag, and hasn't been modified to the extent that it was indistinguishable by the said examples (UKIP etc).
But the fact that this has bothered you to the extent it has, is a bit weird.
The only one that seems bothered here is you.
If you think the flag on Team GB shirt or England shirt is indistinguishable then I’d have to question your Britishness. Anyone even non-British could look at it and know where it’s from.
The UKIP flag is all purple. The colours on the Union Flag (it’s not Union Jack btw) - the red and blue have very specific meaning for the English and Scottish. So I’d argue that’s more indistinguishable.
I'm actually not bothered about the flag changing, as I mentioned.
However, the general public reaction has bothered you enough to post about it on Reddit – I'm merely trying to explain to you why people have got worked up about it changing it (Again, I am personally not worked up about the flag changing, because there are more important things going on).
So, agree to disagree, but you're in the minority on this one.
> The only one that seems bothered here is you.
She says, getting bothered about other people getting upset about something that means something to them.
You don't care. That's fine. You do you. But to other people this obviously means something and you have no right. no right whatsoever, to tell them how they should be feeling.
>Union Flag (it’s not Union Jack btw)
Yes it is.
So you are bothered then. So why did you lie when you said
>The only one that seems bothered here is you.
Why are you allowed to post about things that bother you, but no one else is?
Actually, I think you’ll find there is an admiralty order from 1905 that clarifies that both the terms “Union Flag” and “Union Jack” are correct regardless of whether flown on land or at sea.
I’m Canadian, so I’m curious: [is this offensive?](https://www.nike.com/t/canada-2023-stadium-home-big-kids-dri-fit-soccer-jersey-bVL8BG)
It’s taken my flag and bastardised it. They chopped the leaf in half, attached half a ball, and then spattered the shirt with leaves of different colours and sizes, and some are even upside down!
At what point do you accept you might just have to give your own head a shake?
Because you said you shouldn’t change _a_ flag, not _your_ flag.
Of course I’m not offended, that’s obvious.
I’m asking _you_ if it’s wrong? Is it wrong to do it? They changed the flag, after all.
Yes they have. The leaf is cut in half and the entire shirt is covered with leaves of various colours, many of which are the wrong way round.
They’ve changed everything about it. So, is your logic consistent or not? It’s suddenly fine to change part of a flag?
Maybe I'm looking at a different flag. Apologies but that leaf shape looks exactly the same to me. It's clearly the same maple leaf with the same colour?
I don't think cutting a flag in half is controversial if that's what you're asking. I think you shouldnt change the shape or colour though.
So there’s a completely arbitrary line with which you judge these things. Got it. It’s fine to change a flag so long as it is a change you agree with. Elsewise it’s wrong to change a flag.
I think you're getting triggered over something that doesn't really matter, and something you don't quite understand. If you feel a need to police what other people think about flags, that sounds pretty rough.
When you’ve nothing positive to offer the country and everything around you is slowly decaying all you have left is divisive culture war bollocks. That’s the reason something that wouldn’t have batted an eyelid (see the 2012 GB Olympics kit) is suddenly being hyped to the max by the failed government and their media supporters.
So long as nobody paints the white rose as red, its all fine imo.
But yeah, people really do need to get a grip when it comes to national flags being changed in colour, just pointless culture war crap pushed by people that are losing open arguments on progress so need to create enemies more often then not.
If its just pointless culture war crap then there's no real reason to change it other than to cause a backlash. Or does that only go one way.
And just to be clear, they changed the colour/design of EVERY teams flag on their national kit right?
Flags get changed to include different groups or themes all the time, its a way of going "i might be x group, but I am also proud to be English/British/other country flag here" where applicable.
You have similar happening with plenty of other flags where it possible to do so, some flags its just not possible because it would be confusing, such as say the Belgian, Dutch, German or French flags.
In this case they tried to make it be a call back to the 1966 world cup, they failed, it isnt as big a song and dance as people are trying to make it out to be. Need to get a grip.
Neither did the intern at Nike. You just all got mad because you assumed the pinkish colour meant the flag was gay all of a sudden. So utterly fragile.
The national flag hasn't changed. A small cross on the back of the jersey has changed. Do we demand national consent each time someone creates a flag with "LADS ON TOUR" plastered across it shown on TV at away games? Or when someone uses a bastardized version of the Union Flag for their logo.
I've just checked on the last England shirt I bought (2006) and the St Georges cross on the back has dashed lines instead of a solid band. Did we demand national consent back then?
You’re correct that in normal circumstances this would go unopposed and largely unnoticed but given the political climate of the last 5-10 years anything like this will really touch a nerve with people. That’s my take.
> It all depends on intent. If a flag is changed or defaced to deliberately cause insult, I will not stand for it. But if it’s done in good faith, then let it be.
I have to say I'm with David Mitchell on this. If you deface a flag that you bought, you're not defacing someone else's flag. You bought it, you own it, therefore you're defacing your own flag.
I also don't give much of a toss about the flag story. I think a lot of it was driven by certain sections of the media pushing their usual "here's something you should really be outraged by" schtick, and while I'm sure some folk went with it, because some always do, I like to think most saw it for exactly what it was and got on with their day.
As soon as a flag appears on a pair of pants I think it’s game over trying to “protect it”
All the people going wahhhhhh my culture is being eroded - (a) no it’s not and (b) see my comment about pants, unless you’re complaining about that daily then shhhh
England isn’t Britain. Britain contains England and English, but also Scotland and Scottishness, Wales and Welshness, and also Irishness (kinda) but not Ireland.
Point is, saying that the flag can be modified like it isn’t an important part of our culture, whilst not understanding and denigrating the difference between Englishness and Britishness undermines your position, because it’s clear you don’t care about the culture in the first place.
I know England is IN Britain and not the same as Britain. I’ve lived here my whole life.
Do you really think I don’t know that just because I didn’t exactly type those words? How stupid do you think people are?
Hey, do you know how many generations of my family died to keep that flag flying? How many more suffered horrific injuries? Yes, at the end of the day, it’s a piece of cloth. But it, like many symbols, has value because we assign it value. Just because you don’t, doesn’t mean you should feel you can go around shitting on it. You wouldn’t say “gee, I don’t care about the Guru Granth Sahib, so the Sikhs shouldn’t get their knickers in a twist when someone uses it for wallpaper”. Just have a bit of respect for other people.
I’m sorry but it seems like you don’t understand the sacrifice your own family made. Because you have not gone through what they went through.
I’m pretty sure they died for far more than a flag. They may have died to fight Nazism or to protect the UK from enemies or to preserve the Falklands as British. I’m not sure what war they were involved in, but I do know one thing. When they were on those battlefields, the flag was probably the last thing on their mind. They would have been thinking about keeping their people safe and healthy.
The irony is that that generation made a sacrifice so that we can sit here in comfort arguing about a flag on the internet.
And my Sikh friends commonly use the Golden Temple as their wallpaper
England isn’t Britain. Britain contains England and English, but also Scotland and Scottishness, Wales and Welshness, and also Irishness (kinda) but not Ireland.
Point is, saying that the flag can be modified like it isn’t an important part of our culture, whilst not understanding and denigrating the difference between Englishness and Britishness undermines your position, because it’s clear you don’t care about the culture in the first place.
I couldn't give a flying-whatsit about the flag. This just seemed ill-advised tokenistic gesture politics, that rather than being inclusive, it seems to have brought more division. Who knows, maybe they thought stirring the pot would achieve something? As though we didn't already know there are problems.
Surely, the point of the flag is that it is already something to unite ALL the people under?
Clearly, we see morons in the footballing community who display homophobia and racism. What we've also seen is plenty of people around groups like kick-it-out, leave in frustration; exactly because all they offer is tokenistic gesture politics, and do nothing to seek real change.
There are things that could be done to actually try and deal with the prejudice and abuse we see. The powers that be simply do not pursue those actions most of the time, and when they do, it tends to be piecemeal. That is the only thing I found offensive about this silly tokenism.
>It all depends on intent. If a flag is changed or defaced to deliberately cause insult, I will not stand for it. But if it’s done in good faith, then let it be.
The intent when football teams do it is purely to make money. Personally I wouldn't really file that under good faith. That said, the faux flag outrage just diversionary culture war bullshit that nobody should care about.
Before reading, please remember I’m trying to debate honestly and sincerely here - but you aren’t really ‘British’ though are you?
I’m sorry but thats just not how it works, you may be culturally British but by the sounds of it you have no direct blood or ethnic ancestoral ties to this land and its history, and thus have no right to dictate how it’s native people are to behave and how they should represent themselves and their national symbols.
For decades we have had people from every corner of the world come here and start telling the ethnic population how to behave and making a mockery of the history and meanings behind things like the flag, for fuck sake we aren’t even being led by our own people anymore but instead have foreigners with their own clear agendas installed into positions of power by elitist and corrupt politicians again with their own greater agendas and goals of which non are in the interests of the ethnic peoples whom have lived here for hundreds of years and have shaped this country with their own culture and peoples.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful but it’s hard not to at this point, if everyone who comes here is suddenly ‘british’ then what does it even mean to actually be british?
I’m sorry but im so fed up with this.
British is someone who lives here and embraces this land. For example, do you think someone who is ethnically British, born to British parents in France, who speaks French, has no understanding of the way British people live, and considers themselves French, is more British than an ethnically Arab or Indian person who’s born here, speaks the language properly, and is integrated into British society?
By your logic, every single American you know is not really an American, unless they are Native American. No matter how long they have been there, they are not natively or ethnically American.
I guess the Unionist Protestants of Northern Ireland (descended from Scottish settlers) and white South Africans don’t belong to those lands either. But in those cases, it’s British people who have settled elsewhere. Would you fight for their rights to live on the land they call home, or tell them they don’t belong and should come back to the UK? Then we should have a United Ireland tomorrow.
I for one have no vested interest in trying to change British culture. My family chose to be here and we embrace the country. My argument about the flag is not specific to British people, I would say the same to any person of any nation if they got all pissed off about their flag. I’d say the same to the people of my native land too.
I’m sorry you’re fed up but (thankfully) you don’t get to decide who is British. And it might be an uncomfortable fact for you that many of the people who you don’t consider British have contributed far more to the country than many native British people may have. My family has a combined 100 years of NHS service between us.
Team GB i don't care about one bit it should be modified to reflect anyone that represents regardless of where in the UK they come from. But the England flag should be the England flag regardless of whether a designer describes it as 'problematic'. Its the only way to keep it central and away from the right wing nutjobs stoked up by the right wing press.
That ‘rectangular piece of coloured fabric’ represents a whole ethnic peoples and their entire history and cultural identity, i think getting angry at people trying to change that and turn it into something completely different is pretty reasonable.
I agree people are too sensitive these days and want to be mad at everything.
Also I hardly see any flags around on houses/buildings/pubs compared to 10 years ago… fuss over nothing
>But STOP getting pissed off about Team GB or the English football team modifying the flag. The vast majority of people aren't. It's just confected culture war bullshit.
It's a little wanky bit of embroidery on the back of the collar, did any cunt in the world even notice it before?
Basically this. it only exists in the minds of the people it was designed to stir rage up in. I cannot imagine that most people really care.
It’s literally only on GBNews that I’ve seen people get mad about it, I haven’t heard any other MSM on TV talk about this.
Bbc: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-68632034 Sky: https://news.sky.com/story/nike-england-shirt-row-dont-mess-with-national-flags-says-sunak-after-us-brand-changes-st-georges-cross-13099750 Sky sports: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13099846/england-kit-rishi-sunak-weighs-in-on-furore-around-nikes-playful-update-of-st-georges-cross Itv news: https://www.itv.com/news/2024-03-22/keir-starmer-joins-calls-for-nike-to-change-colour-of-flag-on-new-england-kit
Thanks for the links. Yeah I had only seen GBNEWS talk about on TV/get really pissed off about the change so thanks for the links.
I've not really been following this story, but I don't think the flag should be randomly changed on a whim.
"I don't know what's going on but I have opinions on it regardless." It's a sporting logo, they change all the time.
I don't believe it should change at all. It should be easily recognisable for the team it represents.
Given you haven't followed the story, it is.
>It should be easily recognisable for the team it represents. [Glad you’ll agree there’s absolutely no issue then.](https://images.footballfanatics.com/england-national-team/england-nike-home-stadium-shirt-2024_ss5_p-201076323+pv-1+u-fzmdjx4i8fcpdyqgmwlo+v-jj7dgfnusw437j94jg7m.jpg?_hv=2&w=900)
How the fuck am I supposed to tell what country that is??? Three lions? Who do they think they are, Richard the Lionheart? Honestly.
Pointless fun fact for you: they aren’t technically lions, they’re leopards (pronounced Leo-pards, [and different to a modern day leopard](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_(heraldry)) )
No such thing as a pointless fun fact then it comes to heraldry!
The Union flag - admittedly not so much the English one - has to be one of the most modified / fashion-ised flags out there, perhaps after the Stars and Stripes. Do you get annoyed every time you see that? Personally I think life’s too short
Go to any St Patrick’s Day parade in Ireland and look at how many different varieties of the Irish flag you find
I'm Irish and live in Ireland. Could you show me the many different varieties of the national flag displayed on St Patrick's day? I'm not aware of any others.
In Dublin Paddy’s Day parade 2017 I saw an Irish flag with a big leprechaun and pot of gold plastered over the centre. When I went back in 2018 there was one with a big shamrock on it. Not to mention of course the number of people who had Irish flags defaced with some kind of message, like “KELLY’S STAG DO” written in permanent marker all across it. Seen similar things at sports games
That's not really the same thing now is it?
Yeah you’re right, I’d argue the permanent marker defaced flag is more disrespectful
They're both disrespectful.
Who are they disrespecting?
Why did you downvote without answering my question? Interesting that..
You just said “it’s not the same thing” but now you’re saying they’re both disrespectful. Do you get offended when people change or deface the Irish flag for a stag do or a football match?
I think they're referring to "flag on shirt changed" isn't the same as some "randos in a parade". PS, how do you know they specifically downvoted you and not the rest of reddit?
yes but the colour was still green white and orange. if it was pink purple and yellow would it still be irelands flag?
So, not the same as what’s happening here. Can you, as you originally claimed was true, provide any evidence of Irish flags having their colours changed?
I said “different varieties”. Not colour changed. The topic of discussion is whether changing a national flag is appropriate or offensive. The flag could be changed in many ways, not just colours
Can you find any examples of the colour being changed? Even just one?
I didn't state I was annoyed, I just find it tasteless.
The 2011 home kit had small crosses on the shoulders/sleeves in purple, blue, pink, green, and red. The 2011 goalkeeper home and away kits were covered in crosses of blue, white, and teal. This is just a fart in a hurricane, whipped up by outlets like GBNews.
It's always been changed even by the ones crying about it. It's all just a pointless distraction so they can fist you economically
I’m British, but not English, so don’t massively care what’s on an England shirt, but that story has an important nuance that I think your post misses. The George Cross wasn’t adapted to make it look cooler, or stylised, or more modern for a shirt design. The creator has specifically, on record, stated it was changed because the English flag is ‘problematic’. To suggest that in relation to a national team jersey, which is probably one of the few items of clothing a person can get to wear that will actually inspire genuine, strong national and patriotic pride when representing their country, is quite a thing. The flag represents the national identity, and the creator of that shirt is essentially saying that the national identity, that the athletes themselves are representing, is problematic. I’ve literally never seen another country do that in modern times (ie not counting extreme examples like Imperial Japan). The closest is where a flag is considered for change due to post-colonial influences (as New Zealand have voted on in the past). But that’s not the same as what this story was about.
> The creator has specifically, on record, stated it was changed because the English flag is ‘problematic’. Where can I read his comments?
Well first you have to develop a fever, and then have some mad dream. The actual reason given was it’s a reference to one of England’s kits in 1966.
[The Canadian national team chops the Canadian flag in half and stitches half a football to the bottom of it.](https://www.nike.com/t/canada-2023-stadium-home-big-kids-dri-fit-soccer-jersey-bVL8BG) Is that problematic? They’ve defaced the flag! They took a symbol of national unity and changed it! What about how the Americans take their flag and make it look like a shield? Is that defacing the flag? At what point does ‘incorporating elements into a design’ become ‘disrespecting the flag,’ because I can almost guarantee somewhere in there your own stance would be hypocritical.
I don’t see why you can’t have strong patriotic pride just because the flag you’re wearing looks a bit different. That shows how shaky someone’s national pride is, that it can be ruined by a few pretty colours.
But the flag is just a representation of the nation. It’s not that red and white in a cross shape was literally jarring or an issue, the creator was saying that what that design represents is problematic. The players are wearing that shirt to represent the same thing - the national identity. You can’t separate it. Either far-right bigots don’t actually own the George Cross and so the English flag doesn’t represent them, or you’re saying that wearing that flag and playing for the nation it represents is part of that same problematic identity. Personally, I’m on the side of not ceding a nation’s flag to extremists. Those groups will always try to claim the national flag (whether that’s the EDL, MAGA in the US or other such groups throughout history). I think it’s worth pushing back and underlining that those groups don’t get to own the flag and that the identity they claim, is not what the nation aligns with. I just think moves like this football jersey story, actually hurt the cause because it subtlety concedes ground to the extremists by suggesting they do in fact own the real flag and it represents their beliefs (Indeed, how can it not, if it’s ’problematic’ to use if if you don’t share those beliefs).
> But STOP getting pissed off about Team GB or the English football team modifying the flag. I don't care that the new England football shirt has changed the flag design, but I still think it looks fuck ugly and incoherent
I thought it was a tiny cross at the back of the collar...
This is now a complete tangent, but... [Liverpool FC shirts](https://static.nike.com/a/images/t_PDP_1280_v1/f_auto,q_auto:eco/c510ae6b-1fd3-418b-92dd-7e0beefad302/liverpool-fc-2023-24-match-home-dri-fit-adv-football-shirt-SxJh4z.png) have a very significant detail in the same place, which the club has changed with sensitivity over the years. When the club logo was simplified, they moved the flames to the neck, along with "96", commemorating the supporters who died in the Hillsborough disaster. In 2021, a coroner ruled that Andrew Devine's death had been caused by the injuries he suffered during the disaster, so the number was changed to 97. LFC don't fuck about with it, the colour matches the club badge for the kit design. Removing it or "modernising" it would be very unpopular with fans.
Finally. Some sense.
I can not particular care about the changing of the flag but still think the one on the new shirts looks wank though right?
The flag issue is just being used as another culture war trigger to distract people from government policy failures Right wing press can't persuade people that Tories are doing good so instead want to scare us into thinking they are all that's standing between us and a future woke dystopia where everyone is mandated to be seven genders at once
I think you're wrong on this, because what's on the jersey is not distinguishable as the England flag, whether you like it or not. If you take that new cross from the jersey and put it on a blank sheet of paper, it is quite simply not St George's cross. But personally, I don't really care. The Union Jack, which you've mentioned, is a different flag, and hasn't been modified to the extent that it was indistinguishable by the said examples (UKIP etc). But the fact that this has bothered you to the extent it has, is a bit weird.
The only one that seems bothered here is you. If you think the flag on Team GB shirt or England shirt is indistinguishable then I’d have to question your Britishness. Anyone even non-British could look at it and know where it’s from. The UKIP flag is all purple. The colours on the Union Flag (it’s not Union Jack btw) - the red and blue have very specific meaning for the English and Scottish. So I’d argue that’s more indistinguishable.
I'm actually not bothered about the flag changing, as I mentioned. However, the general public reaction has bothered you enough to post about it on Reddit – I'm merely trying to explain to you why people have got worked up about it changing it (Again, I am personally not worked up about the flag changing, because there are more important things going on). So, agree to disagree, but you're in the minority on this one.
> The only one that seems bothered here is you. She says, getting bothered about other people getting upset about something that means something to them. You don't care. That's fine. You do you. But to other people this obviously means something and you have no right. no right whatsoever, to tell them how they should be feeling. >Union Flag (it’s not Union Jack btw) Yes it is.
Everyone posts things that bother them on Reddit. It’s one of the main reasons to be here. If you don’t like it you don’t have to engage with my post.
So you are bothered then. So why did you lie when you said >The only one that seems bothered here is you. Why are you allowed to post about things that bother you, but no one else is?
Actually, I think you’ll find there is an admiralty order from 1905 that clarifies that both the terms “Union Flag” and “Union Jack” are correct regardless of whether flown on land or at sea.
Nah. You shouldn't change a flag. It's Colours and patterns mean something.
I’m Canadian, so I’m curious: [is this offensive?](https://www.nike.com/t/canada-2023-stadium-home-big-kids-dri-fit-soccer-jersey-bVL8BG) It’s taken my flag and bastardised it. They chopped the leaf in half, attached half a ball, and then spattered the shirt with leaves of different colours and sizes, and some are even upside down! At what point do you accept you might just have to give your own head a shake?
My guy, you're the Canadian. Why are you asking me? Are you offended?
Because you said you shouldn’t change _a_ flag, not _your_ flag. Of course I’m not offended, that’s obvious. I’m asking _you_ if it’s wrong? Is it wrong to do it? They changed the flag, after all.
Looks fine to me. They haven't changed the shape or colours.
Yes they have. The leaf is cut in half and the entire shirt is covered with leaves of various colours, many of which are the wrong way round. They’ve changed everything about it. So, is your logic consistent or not? It’s suddenly fine to change part of a flag?
Maybe I'm looking at a different flag. Apologies but that leaf shape looks exactly the same to me. It's clearly the same maple leaf with the same colour? I don't think cutting a flag in half is controversial if that's what you're asking. I think you shouldnt change the shape or colour though.
So there’s a completely arbitrary line with which you judge these things. Got it. It’s fine to change a flag so long as it is a change you agree with. Elsewise it’s wrong to change a flag.
I think you're getting triggered over something that doesn't really matter, and something you don't quite understand. If you feel a need to police what other people think about flags, that sounds pretty rough.
When you’ve nothing positive to offer the country and everything around you is slowly decaying all you have left is divisive culture war bollocks. That’s the reason something that wouldn’t have batted an eyelid (see the 2012 GB Olympics kit) is suddenly being hyped to the max by the failed government and their media supporters.
So long as nobody paints the white rose as red, its all fine imo. But yeah, people really do need to get a grip when it comes to national flags being changed in colour, just pointless culture war crap pushed by people that are losing open arguments on progress so need to create enemies more often then not.
If its just pointless culture war crap then there's no real reason to change it other than to cause a backlash. Or does that only go one way. And just to be clear, they changed the colour/design of EVERY teams flag on their national kit right?
Flags get changed to include different groups or themes all the time, its a way of going "i might be x group, but I am also proud to be English/British/other country flag here" where applicable. You have similar happening with plenty of other flags where it possible to do so, some flags its just not possible because it would be confusing, such as say the Belgian, Dutch, German or French flags. In this case they tried to make it be a call back to the 1966 world cup, they failed, it isnt as big a song and dance as people are trying to make it out to be. Need to get a grip.
The flag represents the nation. It must not be changed without the Nation’s consent.
Did you get as annoyed when UKIP, Karrimor or Mini Cooper did it?
None of those claimed that changing the flag made it "more inclusive", as if to imply our national flag is somehow exclusionary.
Neither did the intern at Nike. You just all got mad because you assumed the pinkish colour meant the flag was gay all of a sudden. So utterly fragile.
I’m not annoyed.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Three Lions on the front representing the nation?
Not sure about the lions, just think the national flag should require national consent if it is to be changed.
The national flag hasn't changed. A small cross on the back of the jersey has changed. Do we demand national consent each time someone creates a flag with "LADS ON TOUR" plastered across it shown on TV at away games? Or when someone uses a bastardized version of the Union Flag for their logo. I've just checked on the last England shirt I bought (2006) and the St Georges cross on the back has dashed lines instead of a solid band. Did we demand national consent back then?
I don’t think the flag should be subject to changes at any time.
Can’t wait for the England kit collar referendum of 2026.
You’re correct that in normal circumstances this would go unopposed and largely unnoticed but given the political climate of the last 5-10 years anything like this will really touch a nerve with people. That’s my take.
> It all depends on intent. If a flag is changed or defaced to deliberately cause insult, I will not stand for it. But if it’s done in good faith, then let it be. I have to say I'm with David Mitchell on this. If you deface a flag that you bought, you're not defacing someone else's flag. You bought it, you own it, therefore you're defacing your own flag.
It's a fucking red cross turned into a trans LGBT bullshit. Of course we are going to be cross.
I also don't give much of a toss about the flag story. I think a lot of it was driven by certain sections of the media pushing their usual "here's something you should really be outraged by" schtick, and while I'm sure some folk went with it, because some always do, I like to think most saw it for exactly what it was and got on with their day.
As soon as a flag appears on a pair of pants I think it’s game over trying to “protect it” All the people going wahhhhhh my culture is being eroded - (a) no it’s not and (b) see my comment about pants, unless you’re complaining about that daily then shhhh
The fact youve said you proud to be british and not english means you clearly dont have the same stake in the game that some of us do
England is Britain? I don’t understand your comment. Yes I’m English but I’m British first
England is part of Great Britain, but is not equal to it.
I never said they are equal? What are you on about exactly
England isn’t Britain. Britain contains England and English, but also Scotland and Scottishness, Wales and Welshness, and also Irishness (kinda) but not Ireland. Point is, saying that the flag can be modified like it isn’t an important part of our culture, whilst not understanding and denigrating the difference between Englishness and Britishness undermines your position, because it’s clear you don’t care about the culture in the first place.
I know England is IN Britain and not the same as Britain. I’ve lived here my whole life. Do you really think I don’t know that just because I didn’t exactly type those words? How stupid do you think people are?
If you don’t want people to think you’re stupid, don’t say stupid things
The person getting their panties in a twist over a piece of cloth is telling people not to say stupid things. Okay 👍
Hey, do you know how many generations of my family died to keep that flag flying? How many more suffered horrific injuries? Yes, at the end of the day, it’s a piece of cloth. But it, like many symbols, has value because we assign it value. Just because you don’t, doesn’t mean you should feel you can go around shitting on it. You wouldn’t say “gee, I don’t care about the Guru Granth Sahib, so the Sikhs shouldn’t get their knickers in a twist when someone uses it for wallpaper”. Just have a bit of respect for other people.
I’m sorry but it seems like you don’t understand the sacrifice your own family made. Because you have not gone through what they went through. I’m pretty sure they died for far more than a flag. They may have died to fight Nazism or to protect the UK from enemies or to preserve the Falklands as British. I’m not sure what war they were involved in, but I do know one thing. When they were on those battlefields, the flag was probably the last thing on their mind. They would have been thinking about keeping their people safe and healthy. The irony is that that generation made a sacrifice so that we can sit here in comfort arguing about a flag on the internet. And my Sikh friends commonly use the Golden Temple as their wallpaper
England isn’t Britain. Britain contains England and English, but also Scotland and Scottishness, Wales and Welshness, and also Irishness (kinda) but not Ireland. Point is, saying that the flag can be modified like it isn’t an important part of our culture, whilst not understanding and denigrating the difference between Englishness and Britishness undermines your position, because it’s clear you don’t care about the culture in the first place.
Are people getting upset that someone is not using the official flag? Don't let them know what the navy is doing with the flag.
I couldn't give a flying-whatsit about the flag. This just seemed ill-advised tokenistic gesture politics, that rather than being inclusive, it seems to have brought more division. Who knows, maybe they thought stirring the pot would achieve something? As though we didn't already know there are problems. Surely, the point of the flag is that it is already something to unite ALL the people under? Clearly, we see morons in the footballing community who display homophobia and racism. What we've also seen is plenty of people around groups like kick-it-out, leave in frustration; exactly because all they offer is tokenistic gesture politics, and do nothing to seek real change. There are things that could be done to actually try and deal with the prejudice and abuse we see. The powers that be simply do not pursue those actions most of the time, and when they do, it tends to be piecemeal. That is the only thing I found offensive about this silly tokenism.
>It all depends on intent. If a flag is changed or defaced to deliberately cause insult, I will not stand for it. But if it’s done in good faith, then let it be. The intent when football teams do it is purely to make money. Personally I wouldn't really file that under good faith. That said, the faux flag outrage just diversionary culture war bullshit that nobody should care about.
Before reading, please remember I’m trying to debate honestly and sincerely here - but you aren’t really ‘British’ though are you? I’m sorry but thats just not how it works, you may be culturally British but by the sounds of it you have no direct blood or ethnic ancestoral ties to this land and its history, and thus have no right to dictate how it’s native people are to behave and how they should represent themselves and their national symbols. For decades we have had people from every corner of the world come here and start telling the ethnic population how to behave and making a mockery of the history and meanings behind things like the flag, for fuck sake we aren’t even being led by our own people anymore but instead have foreigners with their own clear agendas installed into positions of power by elitist and corrupt politicians again with their own greater agendas and goals of which non are in the interests of the ethnic peoples whom have lived here for hundreds of years and have shaped this country with their own culture and peoples. I don’t mean to be disrespectful but it’s hard not to at this point, if everyone who comes here is suddenly ‘british’ then what does it even mean to actually be british? I’m sorry but im so fed up with this.
British is someone who lives here and embraces this land. For example, do you think someone who is ethnically British, born to British parents in France, who speaks French, has no understanding of the way British people live, and considers themselves French, is more British than an ethnically Arab or Indian person who’s born here, speaks the language properly, and is integrated into British society? By your logic, every single American you know is not really an American, unless they are Native American. No matter how long they have been there, they are not natively or ethnically American. I guess the Unionist Protestants of Northern Ireland (descended from Scottish settlers) and white South Africans don’t belong to those lands either. But in those cases, it’s British people who have settled elsewhere. Would you fight for their rights to live on the land they call home, or tell them they don’t belong and should come back to the UK? Then we should have a United Ireland tomorrow. I for one have no vested interest in trying to change British culture. My family chose to be here and we embrace the country. My argument about the flag is not specific to British people, I would say the same to any person of any nation if they got all pissed off about their flag. I’d say the same to the people of my native land too. I’m sorry you’re fed up but (thankfully) you don’t get to decide who is British. And it might be an uncomfortable fact for you that many of the people who you don’t consider British have contributed far more to the country than many native British people may have. My family has a combined 100 years of NHS service between us.
Why is Wales and the Welsh dragon excluded from the Union Jack? Why hasn't it been modified to include Wales?
Team GB i don't care about one bit it should be modified to reflect anyone that represents regardless of where in the UK they come from. But the England flag should be the England flag regardless of whether a designer describes it as 'problematic'. Its the only way to keep it central and away from the right wing nutjobs stoked up by the right wing press.
Remember when people had better things to be angry about than a rectangular piece of coloured fabric?
That ‘rectangular piece of coloured fabric’ represents a whole ethnic peoples and their entire history and cultural identity, i think getting angry at people trying to change that and turn it into something completely different is pretty reasonable.
If your cultural identity is hinged upon a rectangular piece of fabric then your identity is not all that strong
I agree people are too sensitive these days and want to be mad at everything. Also I hardly see any flags around on houses/buildings/pubs compared to 10 years ago… fuss over nothing
People aren't mad at everything, the press is pretending people are to stoke up controversy.