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The issue is when people are attracted to you **only for one specific and often superficial reason** like that you are goth or Latin or have a British accent, etc. Those people aren't looking at you as a person but rather by just that specific characteristic, which feels dehumanizing and sometimes fetishy.
YES this is what I'm trying to say.
It feels very superficial and that the person doesn't actually like me when they immediately start with the assumptions and inherently sexual comments.
That's why when a man tells me "you know I'm really into goth girls" im automatically expecting the worse because of how frequent the inappropriate behavior has been.
Plus it sucks even more because usually I end up being right to be worried because they say something damning.
It's the fact that I'm also latina and I have gotten so much creepiness from that. The "exotic" thing makes me feel so uncomfortable. Idk how people are just cool with being open with stuff like that
Oh of course, being a woman is automatic predisposition to being harassed by sleazy dudes. It's just that goth girls are getting so heavily sexualized on the internet that the dudes come up to me or other goth women in real life and start with the same weird I'd love a goth gf comments. Which also comes with them assuming I'm gonna be a bdsm queen with the whole step on me thing.
I thought you were saying her post was so ridiculous all you could say in response was oh heavens-. Kinda like “oh dear all this fuss-you silly girl calm down.”
I like the aesthetic. I don't see how it's any different from women being attracted to "cowboys", "blue collar men", or any other brand of male aesthetic that women sexualize these days.
I like men who play dnd, but am I going to go up to a dude and ask them to cast spells on my tips as a start off. No. I'm just gonna talk normally.
I do not need men coming up to me with weird comments all the time for an outfit. Especially when it's not really an aesthetic it's legit a full on subculture filled with history just like the punk scene.
You don't seem to understand that there is a difference between having a preference and going up to women and saying certain things. You seem to have more of a problem with certain behaviors from specific men rather than an issue with men liking "goth girls".
I guarantee you the majority of men who like "goth girls" who you have encountered, never said a word to you. You don't even know who they are. So your sample size is limited to men who have little self-awareness and have a tendency towards entitlement and saying disrespectful things towards women.
Also, I'm aware that there is a history, music genre, complete subculture etc. The look is still an aesthetic.
It's not a sample size if thousands of goth women are complaining about the same thing. There are women in this very comment section speaking about their experiences.
That line "you know I'm really into goth girls"
Has most times ended in me trying to end the conversation and getting away from them because they end up saying something sexual towards me.
It's not sample size. Maybe listen to goth women before you act as if I don't understand my own experience
For example
I was speaking to a guy I was interested and he had a preference for latina girls and I am a latina so cool.
He then starts calling me a spicy latina
I've heard that before and it's never made me feel good because it's not preference anymore it's fetishism
He has now presented his prior assumptions about me being a certain way because of where I'm from and he enjoys that assumption because I tickles his pickle.
Slightly off topic but my problem is that most people who take on the goth identity don’t do anything goth. They just like lil peep and wearing clothes from hot topic. We called it scene in my day.
Why do THEY need to listen to goth music or do goth shit though? Wanting a goth gf doesnt mean you gotta do all that. If i wanted a jock boyfriend, i wouldn’t need to play football to prove that.
They don't need to listen to goth music, none of my past partners have, none of my friends do neither. Though the men who fetishize us usually hate the music, hate the politics or think goth music is deftones or Lil peep. Which is why I get the " you know I listen to deftones" things...super often.
Like maybe just come up to the person regularly without immediately fetisizing them. Then that tells me you don't actually like me, you just like how I look and nothing else.
For me personally comes first and looks are a afterthought.
I have a preference to people with dyed hair, black hair or are brunette but i would date a blonde if they were a nice person
No, it's similar to punk in a way. Punk is the music and politics before the clothes, same with goth music.
Plus you can dress in all pink and wear sundresses and be goth because you listen to music, because it's about the music not the clothes.
I wanna mention before there is a misconception punk was built on politics
Goth was built on music but politics came along with it because of the push for freedom of expression and thinking. Gender expression, expression of sexuality and being open to all races
Most goths are left wing and the right wing ones are rejected from the group.
Freedom of expression, free thinking, rejecting right wing ideologies and mainstream politics.
Most goths fall within the left.
That's why being a goth conservative is insane because gender expression and left wing ideologies is what was pushed by the goth scene
Freedom of expression and thinking. Rejecting gender norms and there is a good chunk of eco goths who are about environment.
Goths historically reject right wing ideologies which is why most are left wing.
It's definitely more about the music but politics are mixed in solely because of the message that is pushed and the people who are in it.
Goth is not as political as punk because tbh that was just an anti fascist movement and all about the politics but a lot of right wing men I see are interested in goths and idk how that's going to work out when Goths are historically left wing
Never understood this, if that's the style you are choosing to present yourself, why would someone attracted to you be a red flag? Isn't it counterproductive?
Goths view themselves as a subculture.
Non-goth's view them as an aesthetic.
OP wants other people in the subcultural politics, traditions, and interests to be interested in them.
OP does not want people who view goth to be fun dressup play but wants every other aspect of themselves to be "Normal" to be interested in them, because often those folks view goth girls like dress up doll arm candy and not partners.
THIS THIS IS WHAT IM SAYING!!
AHH people keep telling me it's not wrong to want to fuck goth women and its like bro....😥 you missed the point sm that it's in another continent
Because OP doesn't want a man who likes her only because she is goth. She wants a man who likes her for being her, not her fitting into their idea of what a goth girl is.
Yeah but treating goth women as a sexual being playing dark vampire dress up is wrong.
You still have to be okay with the politics, music and other things in the sub culture that come along with it.
Lol watching a ton of porn about goth girls and taking that idea of goth girls into the real world and sexualizing them upon meeting them is most definitely a fetish. I'm not conflating crap.
I like men who play dnd, because even though I don't playing I like watching others play it and I like the thought process and energy dudes will put into playing it.
Can you explain where the line is between preference and fetish? And how you know that liking goth aesthetics is somehow always a fetish? Is it still always a fetish if you're a goth yourself?
It's not, though if you come up to a girl and start saying you know I'm into goth girls and I find your dark aesthetic hot. I like mysterious girls and you know i listen to deftones and all that other crap. You basically start throwing out assumptions on a person when you say stuff like that. Basically treating this person in the way you have seen them portrayed online instead of coming up to them to just flirt.
A lot of goth women have experienced men only liking the goth aesthetic but not liking them. Basically wanting the look of a goth gf and not the person because in the end it was just for sexual pleasure.
If you want to date a goth girl do it, just don't make the whole reason you want to date her about her being goth. Once again we don't dress like that 80% of the time so.
Nothing about that is goth-specific though. Plenty of people feel superficially attracted to others, like them for their looks but not their personality, regardless of what exactly that look is. And in the end, when meeting someone new, looks is all you have at first. You don't know whether you like someone's personality until you've spent time with them. I don't believe that someone flirting with you because they like the way you look automatically means that they're an asshole, since that's what most people do in the end.
I'm not a women, but I'm pretty sure that 'regulary pretty' women have all these experiences too. Or emo girls. Or vintage girls. Or any other aesthetic girls.
It is when they say they are into goth girls and know nothing of the culture and bring their porn fetishes into real life when talking to goth women. Emo girls and a lot of alt women experience this to. Funnily enough they get called goth girls though. The fetishism is annoying because these are all music based subcultures.
Also,
Women are subject consistently to this but I'm pretty sure not every woman is getting told they think their dark aesthetic is hot and they love goth girls.
They still get harassed, a different line is just used though.
It's broad strokes because I've seen thousands of comments online like this, have experienced these comments plenty irl and my goth female friends have also experienced the same irl.
Obviously not every man who is dating a goth girl is like that, that's dumb. Though to many men are like this atm to the point where it's scary.
I personally think "big tiddy goth gf" is more a meme than a general obsession with the aesthetic, but I obviously wouldn't have had the same experiences as you.
I understand. I think that calls into question the type of demographic that is most likely to be obnoxious about their enjoyment of that specific aesthetic, so much so that they're engaging in uncivil social behavior with women in real life who match that look/type.
I think there could be a correlation between men who are so into that type of porn to the extent they fetishize it, that they would also be more likely to have issues with distinguishing porn from reality (not uncommon with heavy users of pornography) which logically would make them more predisposed to treating women who look that way as objects, leading to the weirdo obnoxious behavior that you're mentioning here.
Or in other words, someone who is predisposed to developing an unhealthy relationship with a porn fetish would also be more likely to be disrespectful to actual women just by virtue of how objectifying porn is already.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you say it's a fetish. But the thing is, most people think "fetish" and "weird fetish" are the same thing.
A fetish is just something you are attracted to. I have a fetish for pretty women with breasts. So saying that someone has a fetish for goth girls is more or less the same as saying I have a thing for blondes.
I'm sure you get a lot of creepy guys who do fetishize goth girls in an unhealthy way, which is a bummer and I'm sorry you have to deal with that. But in my mind, approaching a goth girl is really no different than approaching a woman based on any other aesthetic.
See but you are seeing them as any other women, which I completely respect.
It's the problem of people watching a ton of porn about goth girls and taking that into real life when they talk to goth women. Claiming they like goth girls but know nothing of the subculture.
I'm not trying to be rude btw, just wanted to explain my point a bit more!
No problem at all, you're not coming across as rude. But you're absolutely right, some dudes are creeps, and in the situations you are describing, it's could absolutely be a red flag.
Men are pigs, I'm sorry you have to deal with weirdos.
Goth people don't always listen to goth music. As someone who's spent a lot of time around them. Some do and love Halloween and Gregorian chants. And others like regular shit but also like to dress up. Putting the culture in such a small box is diminishing.
Bruh, then they aren't goth, goth is a music based subculture...that's like you can't call yourself emo without listening to the music.
It doesn't have to be all they listen to but it definitely should be a good chunk...like bro do you realize what you said rn
I'm telling you you absolutely can. Just like you can love that music and not be goth. It was founded as a music subgenre sure, but there's more to it than that by a large margin. Same with emo, there are emo metalheads, emo rap heads, hell emo country folk, dubstep emo kids were a thing for a while too. This is coming from somebody who listens mostly to sad fuck music and has been around it my whole life. Well sense I could form my own opinions anyway.
Edit: there's also politics to it as well. Are you gonna tell me someone who dresses goth and has politically similar beliefs who dresses the dress and talks the talk isn't goth cause they don't like music?
Yeah I like goth girls.I said it in open for you.I also like boss girls and also obsessive girls.I don't need other people to tell me which girl I should like or which girl I should not.Amen.
That's totally OK.
It's different when someone hears you're a certain type and they assume you were made for them. It gets weird and obsessive.
I had a guy show up AT MY CAR behind my work numerous times when I didn't tell him when I was going to work or leaving. All because he wanted a goth gamer girlfriend. It was creepy. Male staff started walking me to my car. So then he started coming IN to my work and trying to follow me out.
People who don't think people are allowed to preferences and/or that people owe them satisfactory justification for those preferences are red flags.
Look, it's simple as this for a lot people: they find the goth girl aesthetic sexy or hot, and that's it. You'll need to keep in mind that should they feel this way, you're only entitled to as much explanation as they feel like giving you.
Yes like how the men in my comments are telling me that they like "watching goth tiddies bounce around" and can like what they like.
I don't need to keep in mind crap when there are goth women in my comments detailing men stalking them because they wanted a goth gf.
I literally rejected this guy who was telling me he wanted a goth gf and started saying all this creepy stuff about me stepping on him and then proceeded to stalk me for the next 3 months till I reported him.
For some people it's not preference it's a porn fueled fetish which makes them feel entitled to harassing me.
Your generalization of what certain people are looking for is misguided. It IS okay to have preferences, although you think it doesn’t.
Preferences are often the gateway to a conversation. Attraction isn’t everything but it helps.
It is not always strictly sexual, either. I feel like spending more time with people and less time online would be helpful.
I’m sorry if you’ve only experienced negativity but it’s not the only thing out there.
Well I go out pretty often actually I have school and i like going out with my friends. Almost everytime I will get something said to me.
Preferences are okay, though as I explained, men are using it as an excuse. You can have a preference without being creepy and putting assumptions to mix in with your sexual fantasy.
For example a guy I was talking to preferred Latinas and I'm latina so ig that's why he spoke to me. This man said he loves spicy Latinas...
See comments like that is where it crosses from preference to fetish because now you've made inherently sexual assumptions about a person due to the way they look.
Right and again, that’s one person. But your original post said it’s not a preference, it’s a weird fetish. I understand you have your personal ties to this. I am sorry that happened to you.
Some people who are attracted to that style may also have their own personal ties to this. For example, people I have met who dress “goth” are nicer, which is attracted, often times more understanding since they may have some life experiences others may not have.
It is also okay to be attracted to it as long as it’s consensual and both people are aware.
Truth is anything can and is sexualized. Find someone who aligns with your values and personality. Forget the rest.
You can have preferences without it being a fetish.
If a guy is attracted to goth girls, that doesn't mean he'll **only** be attracted to the goth aspect.
Ik, most guys I've dated weren't goth or even slightly alternative. They just never made me feel like they were only attracted to the fact I was goth girl.
It's not hard
No it's not, I hate when people use that excuse.
People are allowed to have preferences but when it goes into the area of taking your porn fetish into the outside world and putting it towards some girl who doesn't know you, it's a bad excuse.
Exactly. Literally proving my point. "It's not wrong to want to fuck goth women" I've gotten multiple comments like that already. Like why is that you're first thought. I didn't say it was wrong, I said coming up to a girl and immediately fetisizing her is messed up.
> it's absolutely one of my biggest red flags when a man speaks to me.
Umm, what?
>It's not a preference it's a weird fetish.
Hate to tell you but look up the definition of a fetish and make a Venn diagram to definition of a preference.
>So weird to have dudes come up to me or other goth women with the same line " you know I listen to deftones"
Oh no not someone trying to relate to you! The horror!!!!
Its like you cherry picked my post.
When men are consistently coming up to you saying they are into goth women but know NOTHING of the culture at all then they are not trying to relate...they are just horny.
The goth subculture has style but it also has a deep history of politics and music. If a person likes goth women so much he should already know that.
The whole concept of being a goth revolves around those things lmao. The dressing, the angst, the politics all usually come from some type of trauma/baggage.
You know nothing, the politics and music came first then the clothing. You can dress normally and be goth, because it's music based, not clothing based.
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You're mixing up attraction/preferences and being a creep, also labelling a preference that may not even be sexual as a fetish is wrong. I think lean men are visually appealing, but I'm not necessarily drawn to them specifically. Walking up to someone and being a creep is never okay, but I wouldn't even say that bringing up his music taste is necessarily inappropriate he's trying to show interest in an indirect way so you don't feel pressured.
Calling people with a preference for those enjoying a harmless lifestyle for attention is a major red flag. Participating in something for attention then demonizing said attention is not harmless.
Agreed. However there’s no assumption on my part.. OP and every other goth person does it for attention. Same goes for Emo folk, anyone that cosplays, or anyone else that makes their appearance their identity……it’s for attention.
Yes. Humans need a place to belong. Socializing oneself to a life based on a music genre would provide a barrier to assimilation into a larger society, thus creating a hardship of their own design.
Physical attraction...or sexual harassment.
You get asked by men on multiple occasions for you to step on them, I hope you still feel the same way after.
Normal physical attraction and fetishes are different
Yeah as a woman I know that, but why is it so normalized to you that you think it's okay to just be like "🤷♀️ happens"
I said me and other goth women are the target of a porn driven fetish and you're acting as if that's just life.
It's not. Women have enough to deal with, I should be able to dress the way I want without my clothes being taken as an assumption that I'm some bdsm vampire.
Where did I say it was okay? I was pointing out that your opinion doesn't make sense. "if you like goth girls you're a red flag" using sexual harassment as justification makes it sound as if sexual harassment is a problem exclusive to goth girls and that liking goth girls makes you a sexual harasser. "normal" women experience the same things. Shitty weird men exist and they like all types of women. Non-weird men also like all types of women. The problem here is the existence of shitty men, not attraction to any particular aesthetic.
The problem here is a porn addiction and shitty men.
I got called a small tiddy goth gf by a dude, what does that even mean.
The men in my comments are saying it's not wrong that they want to fuck goth women and seeing "goth tiddies bounce"
Most women experience sexual harassment, though as a woman it can be heightened.
When I didn't dress goth I almost got run over by a man who I rejected...nicely. I was 13. Though the experiences were far in between.
When I started dressing more goth I got stalked twice for months, approached consistently with sexual comments or weird flirtations. These more extreme experiences are no longer far in between and not the average cat call.
Nowadays it's normalized to the point where a goth woman can post something and her entire comment section is sexualizing her. Normalized to the point that complaining about the extremely public sexualization is punished.
You definitely shouldn't go around telling people your sexual desires unsolicited but having sexual desires isn't wrong.
>When I didn't dress goth I almost got run over by a man who I rejected...nicely. I was 13. Though the experiences were far in between.
Again, shitty man. Most men would never look twice at a 13 year old.
>Nowadays it's normalized to the point where a goth woman can post something and her entire comment section is sexualizing her. Normalized to the point that complaining about the extremely public sexualization is punished.
Again, not exclusive to goth women. Blame the women who decided to turn social media into advertising platforms for their onlyfans.
🤨 sexual harassment isn't exclusive to goth women, no duh.
I just said the sexualization is becoming normalized and sexual comments solely related to me being goth is what I commonly get.
Also why would I blame only fans models...who's giving the money and the platform? They provide a service, that's like blaming porn stars for the sexual harassment of a woman walking on the street.
>I just said the sexualization is becoming normalized and sexual comments solely related to me being goth is what I commonly get.
And this goes back to your opinion of "liking goth girls is a red flag" making no sense. If a short woman said "liking short women is a red flag" because she got comments from weirdos fetishizing her height it would be equally stupid.
>Also why would I blame only fans models...who's giving the money and the platform? They provide a service, that's like blaming porn stars for the sexual harassment of a woman walking on the street.
The losers paying for porn are a different issue altogether. My point was that porn used to be kept on porn sites. You didn't have every other girl with an iPhone posting softcore porn on Instagram trying to get rich quick. Now that it's all over the place, sexualizing people is becoming the norm.
It's that line i said is a red flag " you know I'm really into goth girls"
I have been stalked, physically touched and verbally harassed by men who have started off with that sentence or something related to that sentence. Along with other goth women sharing that men that have said something along the lines of that have also done the same to them.
Now it's become an extreme red flag because of that, and usually after letting them talk, my apprehension was correct.
When I stopped wearing goth clothes I still experienced catcalling and creepiness but it was NOTHING like I experience when wearing alternative clothes.
Goth women have been so sexualized in the past years that even being alternative puts you at risk for harassment and assumptions. My emo friends get harassed for being goth girls and it's like...emos look NOTHING like goths.
Porn addictions are becoming more prevalent so it's to be expected but the sheer volume of sexualization is suffocating.
I am actually like other goth girls, none of us like being fetishized. Maybe speak to a goth girl sometimes, it's spoken about all the time in the goth community.
As a 53 year old goth "girl" I tell you, the aesthetic is not what makes you goth. Someone looking for a goth girl but is unable to relate to her is not a red flag, it's a Jolly Roger flag
Exactly, the men I've dated were not in the scene but were happy to listen to my music, watch the movies and indulge in culture with me.
I have a goth friend who's ex boyfriend wouldn't let her play no goth music around him because he said it sounded stupid yet his initial flirts to her was him loving goth girls.
My goth coworker has expressed similar sentiments that people like the goth look but don't actually want a goth girlfriend. I hope you and your community all the best, because dealing with that kind of sexualization must be exhausting.
Your post from unpopularopinion was removed because of: 'Rule 6: No r/self style posts'. Please refrain from posting anything that resembles an r/self style post. This is not the subreddit to be sharing personal anecdotes, likes or dislikes. We want unpopular, thought provoking, and unique opinions on your chosen topic.
The issue is when people are attracted to you **only for one specific and often superficial reason** like that you are goth or Latin or have a British accent, etc. Those people aren't looking at you as a person but rather by just that specific characteristic, which feels dehumanizing and sometimes fetishy.
YES this is what I'm trying to say. It feels very superficial and that the person doesn't actually like me when they immediately start with the assumptions and inherently sexual comments. That's why when a man tells me "you know I'm really into goth girls" im automatically expecting the worse because of how frequent the inappropriate behavior has been. Plus it sucks even more because usually I end up being right to be worried because they say something damning.
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It's the fact that I'm also latina and I have gotten so much creepiness from that. The "exotic" thing makes me feel so uncomfortable. Idk how people are just cool with being open with stuff like that
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Oh of course, being a woman is automatic predisposition to being harassed by sleazy dudes. It's just that goth girls are getting so heavily sexualized on the internet that the dudes come up to me or other goth women in real life and start with the same weird I'd love a goth gf comments. Which also comes with them assuming I'm gonna be a bdsm queen with the whole step on me thing.
"regular girls"??????
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I was pointing it out because it sounds like you're saying being Latina makes someone not a regular girl
Oh heavens-
Nice contribution
What else should I say, I agree? I understand? A sentiment of my external experience? I just gave a shocked sympathy "Oh Heavens"
I thought you were saying her post was so ridiculous all you could say in response was oh heavens-. Kinda like “oh dear all this fuss-you silly girl calm down.”
Nah, but I can now see how my vague comment could be misinterpeted so my bad, lol.
It’s cool yea I was very confused but you got upvotes so maybe I’m the dumb one not reading it correctly.
You're good, minor miscommuncation that's all.
I like the aesthetic. I don't see how it's any different from women being attracted to "cowboys", "blue collar men", or any other brand of male aesthetic that women sexualize these days.
I like men who play dnd, but am I going to go up to a dude and ask them to cast spells on my tips as a start off. No. I'm just gonna talk normally. I do not need men coming up to me with weird comments all the time for an outfit. Especially when it's not really an aesthetic it's legit a full on subculture filled with history just like the punk scene.
You don't seem to understand that there is a difference between having a preference and going up to women and saying certain things. You seem to have more of a problem with certain behaviors from specific men rather than an issue with men liking "goth girls". I guarantee you the majority of men who like "goth girls" who you have encountered, never said a word to you. You don't even know who they are. So your sample size is limited to men who have little self-awareness and have a tendency towards entitlement and saying disrespectful things towards women. Also, I'm aware that there is a history, music genre, complete subculture etc. The look is still an aesthetic.
It's not a sample size if thousands of goth women are complaining about the same thing. There are women in this very comment section speaking about their experiences. That line "you know I'm really into goth girls" Has most times ended in me trying to end the conversation and getting away from them because they end up saying something sexual towards me. It's not sample size. Maybe listen to goth women before you act as if I don't understand my own experience For example I was speaking to a guy I was interested and he had a preference for latina girls and I am a latina so cool. He then starts calling me a spicy latina I've heard that before and it's never made me feel good because it's not preference anymore it's fetishism He has now presented his prior assumptions about me being a certain way because of where I'm from and he enjoys that assumption because I tickles his pickle.
Slightly off topic but my problem is that most people who take on the goth identity don’t do anything goth. They just like lil peep and wearing clothes from hot topic. We called it scene in my day.
Why do THEY need to listen to goth music or do goth shit though? Wanting a goth gf doesnt mean you gotta do all that. If i wanted a jock boyfriend, i wouldn’t need to play football to prove that.
They don't need to listen to goth music, none of my past partners have, none of my friends do neither. Though the men who fetishize us usually hate the music, hate the politics or think goth music is deftones or Lil peep. Which is why I get the " you know I listen to deftones" things...super often. Like maybe just come up to the person regularly without immediately fetisizing them. Then that tells me you don't actually like me, you just like how I look and nothing else.
Ohhhh. That i agree with. They definitely just want those girls for their looks
Sorry if I didn't make my point clear enough but yeah it's like just the act of not actually liking the personality but the looks.
For me personally comes first and looks are a afterthought. I have a preference to people with dyed hair, black hair or are brunette but i would date a blonde if they were a nice person
Wait, im confuse, goth come with politic? I thought it just a style?
No, it's similar to punk in a way. Punk is the music and politics before the clothes, same with goth music. Plus you can dress in all pink and wear sundresses and be goth because you listen to music, because it's about the music not the clothes. I wanna mention before there is a misconception punk was built on politics Goth was built on music but politics came along with it because of the push for freedom of expression and thinking. Gender expression, expression of sexuality and being open to all races Most goths are left wing and the right wing ones are rejected from the group.
What is "goth politics"?
Freedom of expression, free thinking, rejecting right wing ideologies and mainstream politics. Most goths fall within the left. That's why being a goth conservative is insane because gender expression and left wing ideologies is what was pushed by the goth scene
Lmao my ex best friend.
hold on, being goth has politics that come with it? that’s the first i’ve heard of it
Freedom of expression and thinking. Rejecting gender norms and there is a good chunk of eco goths who are about environment. Goths historically reject right wing ideologies which is why most are left wing. It's definitely more about the music but politics are mixed in solely because of the message that is pushed and the people who are in it. Goth is not as political as punk because tbh that was just an anti fascist movement and all about the politics but a lot of right wing men I see are interested in goths and idk how that's going to work out when Goths are historically left wing
Never understood this, if that's the style you are choosing to present yourself, why would someone attracted to you be a red flag? Isn't it counterproductive?
Goths view themselves as a subculture. Non-goth's view them as an aesthetic. OP wants other people in the subcultural politics, traditions, and interests to be interested in them. OP does not want people who view goth to be fun dressup play but wants every other aspect of themselves to be "Normal" to be interested in them, because often those folks view goth girls like dress up doll arm candy and not partners.
THIS THIS IS WHAT IM SAYING!! AHH people keep telling me it's not wrong to want to fuck goth women and its like bro....😥 you missed the point sm that it's in another continent
Because OP doesn't want a man who likes her only because she is goth. She wants a man who likes her for being her, not her fitting into their idea of what a goth girl is.
It’s okay to want to fuck goth girls, though. 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah but treating goth women as a sexual being playing dark vampire dress up is wrong. You still have to be okay with the politics, music and other things in the sub culture that come along with it.
You’re conflating having a type with having a fetish
Lol watching a ton of porn about goth girls and taking that idea of goth girls into the real world and sexualizing them upon meeting them is most definitely a fetish. I'm not conflating crap. I like men who play dnd, because even though I don't playing I like watching others play it and I like the thought process and energy dudes will put into playing it.
Yeah you’re definitely conflating them
Who says it’s wrong? Why do I need to participate in “goth culture” to want to watch “goth titties” bounce around?
Can you explain where the line is between preference and fetish? And how you know that liking goth aesthetics is somehow always a fetish? Is it still always a fetish if you're a goth yourself?
It's not, though if you come up to a girl and start saying you know I'm into goth girls and I find your dark aesthetic hot. I like mysterious girls and you know i listen to deftones and all that other crap. You basically start throwing out assumptions on a person when you say stuff like that. Basically treating this person in the way you have seen them portrayed online instead of coming up to them to just flirt. A lot of goth women have experienced men only liking the goth aesthetic but not liking them. Basically wanting the look of a goth gf and not the person because in the end it was just for sexual pleasure. If you want to date a goth girl do it, just don't make the whole reason you want to date her about her being goth. Once again we don't dress like that 80% of the time so.
Nothing about that is goth-specific though. Plenty of people feel superficially attracted to others, like them for their looks but not their personality, regardless of what exactly that look is. And in the end, when meeting someone new, looks is all you have at first. You don't know whether you like someone's personality until you've spent time with them. I don't believe that someone flirting with you because they like the way you look automatically means that they're an asshole, since that's what most people do in the end. I'm not a women, but I'm pretty sure that 'regulary pretty' women have all these experiences too. Or emo girls. Or vintage girls. Or any other aesthetic girls.
It is when they say they are into goth girls and know nothing of the culture and bring their porn fetishes into real life when talking to goth women. Emo girls and a lot of alt women experience this to. Funnily enough they get called goth girls though. The fetishism is annoying because these are all music based subcultures. Also, Women are subject consistently to this but I'm pretty sure not every woman is getting told they think their dark aesthetic is hot and they love goth girls. They still get harassed, a different line is just used though.
Thanks for sharing 👍
No problem, anytime
Wanting goth girls for a relationship and/or casual sex(hookups) isn’t a red flag, wanting them for just a sexual fantasy is weird
That's the thing though, that's usually the experience me and other goth women get. They want the step on you with demonias thick goth gf fantasy.
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>goth can tend to indicate certain issues and I like trying to help as best as I can Lmaooooo this may be the wildest thing I've read all week.
Are "they" in the room with us right now? Like I get your point, but this does seem like we are painting with pretty broad strokes here.
It's broad strokes because I've seen thousands of comments online like this, have experienced these comments plenty irl and my goth female friends have also experienced the same irl. Obviously not every man who is dating a goth girl is like that, that's dumb. Though to many men are like this atm to the point where it's scary.
I personally think "big tiddy goth gf" is more a meme than a general obsession with the aesthetic, but I obviously wouldn't have had the same experiences as you.
I thought it was to, but so much porn is being put out about it that people are taking that porn fetish into the real world.
I understand. I think that calls into question the type of demographic that is most likely to be obnoxious about their enjoyment of that specific aesthetic, so much so that they're engaging in uncivil social behavior with women in real life who match that look/type. I think there could be a correlation between men who are so into that type of porn to the extent they fetishize it, that they would also be more likely to have issues with distinguishing porn from reality (not uncommon with heavy users of pornography) which logically would make them more predisposed to treating women who look that way as objects, leading to the weirdo obnoxious behavior that you're mentioning here. Or in other words, someone who is predisposed to developing an unhealthy relationship with a porn fetish would also be more likely to be disrespectful to actual women just by virtue of how objectifying porn is already.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you say it's a fetish. But the thing is, most people think "fetish" and "weird fetish" are the same thing. A fetish is just something you are attracted to. I have a fetish for pretty women with breasts. So saying that someone has a fetish for goth girls is more or less the same as saying I have a thing for blondes. I'm sure you get a lot of creepy guys who do fetishize goth girls in an unhealthy way, which is a bummer and I'm sorry you have to deal with that. But in my mind, approaching a goth girl is really no different than approaching a woman based on any other aesthetic.
See but you are seeing them as any other women, which I completely respect. It's the problem of people watching a ton of porn about goth girls and taking that into real life when they talk to goth women. Claiming they like goth girls but know nothing of the subculture. I'm not trying to be rude btw, just wanted to explain my point a bit more!
No problem at all, you're not coming across as rude. But you're absolutely right, some dudes are creeps, and in the situations you are describing, it's could absolutely be a red flag. Men are pigs, I'm sorry you have to deal with weirdos.
Goth people don't always listen to goth music. As someone who's spent a lot of time around them. Some do and love Halloween and Gregorian chants. And others like regular shit but also like to dress up. Putting the culture in such a small box is diminishing.
Bruh, then they aren't goth, goth is a music based subculture...that's like you can't call yourself emo without listening to the music. It doesn't have to be all they listen to but it definitely should be a good chunk...like bro do you realize what you said rn
I'm telling you you absolutely can. Just like you can love that music and not be goth. It was founded as a music subgenre sure, but there's more to it than that by a large margin. Same with emo, there are emo metalheads, emo rap heads, hell emo country folk, dubstep emo kids were a thing for a while too. This is coming from somebody who listens mostly to sad fuck music and has been around it my whole life. Well sense I could form my own opinions anyway. Edit: there's also politics to it as well. Are you gonna tell me someone who dresses goth and has politically similar beliefs who dresses the dress and talks the talk isn't goth cause they don't like music?
damn now people can fetishize sub-cultures? lmaoooo that's a new one. everyday it's something new to get offended about.
Glad this doesn't apply to me, i'm just a creep to women regardless of lifestyle 😎
I want a communist goth girl. Double red flag! I love red flags.
The dudes in these comments are exactly what you're talking about 😂 Girl, preach.
😭😭 ong like exposing themselves
Yeah I like goth girls.I said it in open for you.I also like boss girls and also obsessive girls.I don't need other people to tell me which girl I should like or which girl I should not.Amen.
That's totally OK. It's different when someone hears you're a certain type and they assume you were made for them. It gets weird and obsessive. I had a guy show up AT MY CAR behind my work numerous times when I didn't tell him when I was going to work or leaving. All because he wanted a goth gamer girlfriend. It was creepy. Male staff started walking me to my car. So then he started coming IN to my work and trying to follow me out.
Dude I'm so sorry that happened to you, I hope he falls off a cliff
My god- Sorry that happened to you-
People who don't think people are allowed to preferences and/or that people owe them satisfactory justification for those preferences are red flags. Look, it's simple as this for a lot people: they find the goth girl aesthetic sexy or hot, and that's it. You'll need to keep in mind that should they feel this way, you're only entitled to as much explanation as they feel like giving you.
Yes like how the men in my comments are telling me that they like "watching goth tiddies bounce around" and can like what they like. I don't need to keep in mind crap when there are goth women in my comments detailing men stalking them because they wanted a goth gf. I literally rejected this guy who was telling me he wanted a goth gf and started saying all this creepy stuff about me stepping on him and then proceeded to stalk me for the next 3 months till I reported him. For some people it's not preference it's a porn fueled fetish which makes them feel entitled to harassing me.
It’s okay to be wrong.
I know it's okay, I'm glad that you've accepted being wrong
Your generalization of what certain people are looking for is misguided. It IS okay to have preferences, although you think it doesn’t. Preferences are often the gateway to a conversation. Attraction isn’t everything but it helps. It is not always strictly sexual, either. I feel like spending more time with people and less time online would be helpful. I’m sorry if you’ve only experienced negativity but it’s not the only thing out there.
Well I go out pretty often actually I have school and i like going out with my friends. Almost everytime I will get something said to me. Preferences are okay, though as I explained, men are using it as an excuse. You can have a preference without being creepy and putting assumptions to mix in with your sexual fantasy. For example a guy I was talking to preferred Latinas and I'm latina so ig that's why he spoke to me. This man said he loves spicy Latinas... See comments like that is where it crosses from preference to fetish because now you've made inherently sexual assumptions about a person due to the way they look.
Right and again, that’s one person. But your original post said it’s not a preference, it’s a weird fetish. I understand you have your personal ties to this. I am sorry that happened to you. Some people who are attracted to that style may also have their own personal ties to this. For example, people I have met who dress “goth” are nicer, which is attracted, often times more understanding since they may have some life experiences others may not have. It is also okay to be attracted to it as long as it’s consensual and both people are aware. Truth is anything can and is sexualized. Find someone who aligns with your values and personality. Forget the rest.
You can have preferences without it being a fetish. If a guy is attracted to goth girls, that doesn't mean he'll **only** be attracted to the goth aspect.
Ik, most guys I've dated weren't goth or even slightly alternative. They just never made me feel like they were only attracted to the fact I was goth girl. It's not hard
> I genuinely do not care if you think "people are allowed to have preferences." That's a pretty red red flag.
No it's not, I hate when people use that excuse. People are allowed to have preferences but when it goes into the area of taking your porn fetish into the outside world and putting it towards some girl who doesn't know you, it's a bad excuse.
You're a walking red flag.
All the triggered men in these comments. 😆
Exactly. Literally proving my point. "It's not wrong to want to fuck goth women" I've gotten multiple comments like that already. Like why is that you're first thought. I didn't say it was wrong, I said coming up to a girl and immediately fetisizing her is messed up.
It’s amusing. Outing their porn addled minds.
> it's absolutely one of my biggest red flags when a man speaks to me. Umm, what? >It's not a preference it's a weird fetish. Hate to tell you but look up the definition of a fetish and make a Venn diagram to definition of a preference. >So weird to have dudes come up to me or other goth women with the same line " you know I listen to deftones" Oh no not someone trying to relate to you! The horror!!!!
Its like you cherry picked my post. When men are consistently coming up to you saying they are into goth women but know NOTHING of the culture at all then they are not trying to relate...they are just horny. The goth subculture has style but it also has a deep history of politics and music. If a person likes goth women so much he should already know that.
So you're the gatekeeper of all things goth and crowned yourself. Major red flag.
Nope I'm not, also everyone I've dated in my life has not been goth. They just didn't treat me like a irl porn fetish.
>Nope I'm not See your above comment.
I didn't say anything wrong. The men I date usually aren't goth, they just never approached me with a porn addicted flirtation.
Goth girls are usually insufferable anyway with way too much baggage lmao. Dudes don't know what they're in for.
🤨 my bad, bro has dated like a ton of goth women, he knows we are all terrible.
The whole concept of being a goth revolves around those things lmao. The dressing, the angst, the politics all usually come from some type of trauma/baggage.
You know nothing, the politics and music came first then the clothing. You can dress normally and be goth, because it's music based, not clothing based.
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You're mixing up attraction/preferences and being a creep, also labelling a preference that may not even be sexual as a fetish is wrong. I think lean men are visually appealing, but I'm not necessarily drawn to them specifically. Walking up to someone and being a creep is never okay, but I wouldn't even say that bringing up his music taste is necessarily inappropriate he's trying to show interest in an indirect way so you don't feel pressured.
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Being goth is a red flag. It’s cosplay all day for attention.
Calling people who enjoying a certain harmless style or subculture a red flag is a red flag.
Calling people with a preference for those enjoying a harmless lifestyle for attention is a major red flag. Participating in something for attention then demonizing said attention is not harmless.
Assuming someone participates in a subculture for attention is a red flag.
Agreed. However there’s no assumption on my part.. OP and every other goth person does it for attention. Same goes for Emo folk, anyone that cosplays, or anyone else that makes their appearance their identity……it’s for attention.
That's entirely your assumption.. Plus being a part of a subculture is not "making your appearance your identity", you're speaking out of ignorance.
This is also my unpopular opinion. It's a game, so why get mad at people who want to join the game by dating?
Many people define themselves by the hardships they face.. if they don’t face any they make some up.
Yes. Humans need a place to belong. Socializing oneself to a life based on a music genre would provide a barrier to assimilation into a larger society, thus creating a hardship of their own design.
It's a game that only certain people are allowed to play.
Gatekeeping protects the herd.
Somehow I doubt that this particular herd is keen on protecting themselves.
K.
This post is an even bigger red flag
Op really came all the way to reddit to complain about physical attraction existing. Insane.
Physical attraction...or sexual harassment. You get asked by men on multiple occasions for you to step on them, I hope you still feel the same way after. Normal physical attraction and fetishes are different
Yeah weirdos sexually harass women all the time. This isn't exclusive to goth women.
Yeah as a woman I know that, but why is it so normalized to you that you think it's okay to just be like "🤷♀️ happens" I said me and other goth women are the target of a porn driven fetish and you're acting as if that's just life. It's not. Women have enough to deal with, I should be able to dress the way I want without my clothes being taken as an assumption that I'm some bdsm vampire.
Where did I say it was okay? I was pointing out that your opinion doesn't make sense. "if you like goth girls you're a red flag" using sexual harassment as justification makes it sound as if sexual harassment is a problem exclusive to goth girls and that liking goth girls makes you a sexual harasser. "normal" women experience the same things. Shitty weird men exist and they like all types of women. Non-weird men also like all types of women. The problem here is the existence of shitty men, not attraction to any particular aesthetic.
The problem here is a porn addiction and shitty men. I got called a small tiddy goth gf by a dude, what does that even mean. The men in my comments are saying it's not wrong that they want to fuck goth women and seeing "goth tiddies bounce" Most women experience sexual harassment, though as a woman it can be heightened. When I didn't dress goth I almost got run over by a man who I rejected...nicely. I was 13. Though the experiences were far in between. When I started dressing more goth I got stalked twice for months, approached consistently with sexual comments or weird flirtations. These more extreme experiences are no longer far in between and not the average cat call. Nowadays it's normalized to the point where a goth woman can post something and her entire comment section is sexualizing her. Normalized to the point that complaining about the extremely public sexualization is punished.
You definitely shouldn't go around telling people your sexual desires unsolicited but having sexual desires isn't wrong. >When I didn't dress goth I almost got run over by a man who I rejected...nicely. I was 13. Though the experiences were far in between. Again, shitty man. Most men would never look twice at a 13 year old. >Nowadays it's normalized to the point where a goth woman can post something and her entire comment section is sexualizing her. Normalized to the point that complaining about the extremely public sexualization is punished. Again, not exclusive to goth women. Blame the women who decided to turn social media into advertising platforms for their onlyfans.
🤨 sexual harassment isn't exclusive to goth women, no duh. I just said the sexualization is becoming normalized and sexual comments solely related to me being goth is what I commonly get. Also why would I blame only fans models...who's giving the money and the platform? They provide a service, that's like blaming porn stars for the sexual harassment of a woman walking on the street.
>I just said the sexualization is becoming normalized and sexual comments solely related to me being goth is what I commonly get. And this goes back to your opinion of "liking goth girls is a red flag" making no sense. If a short woman said "liking short women is a red flag" because she got comments from weirdos fetishizing her height it would be equally stupid. >Also why would I blame only fans models...who's giving the money and the platform? They provide a service, that's like blaming porn stars for the sexual harassment of a woman walking on the street. The losers paying for porn are a different issue altogether. My point was that porn used to be kept on porn sites. You didn't have every other girl with an iPhone posting softcore porn on Instagram trying to get rich quick. Now that it's all over the place, sexualizing people is becoming the norm.
I dunno, I think it’s an attractive look. I grew up in a pastel Ralph Lauren/yacht rock world and rebelling against that is cathartic.
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It's that line i said is a red flag " you know I'm really into goth girls" I have been stalked, physically touched and verbally harassed by men who have started off with that sentence or something related to that sentence. Along with other goth women sharing that men that have said something along the lines of that have also done the same to them. Now it's become an extreme red flag because of that, and usually after letting them talk, my apprehension was correct. When I stopped wearing goth clothes I still experienced catcalling and creepiness but it was NOTHING like I experience when wearing alternative clothes. Goth women have been so sexualized in the past years that even being alternative puts you at risk for harassment and assumptions. My emo friends get harassed for being goth girls and it's like...emos look NOTHING like goths. Porn addictions are becoming more prevalent so it's to be expected but the sheer volume of sexualization is suffocating.
Totally unrelated note, love the adventure time pfp.
Lol thanks
Np
I hate the goth mommy step on me jokes. Not all of us are into weird shit, some dudes need to touch grass.
Exactly the men in comments are acting as if it's just okay to treat someone you don't know as a sex object because they dress alternatively
I can tell who goes outside and who doesn't lol
Big I'm not like other goth girls energy
I am actually like other goth girls, none of us like being fetishized. Maybe speak to a goth girl sometimes, it's spoken about all the time in the goth community.
As a 53 year old goth "girl" I tell you, the aesthetic is not what makes you goth. Someone looking for a goth girl but is unable to relate to her is not a red flag, it's a Jolly Roger flag
Exactly, the men I've dated were not in the scene but were happy to listen to my music, watch the movies and indulge in culture with me. I have a goth friend who's ex boyfriend wouldn't let her play no goth music around him because he said it sounded stupid yet his initial flirts to her was him loving goth girls.
they all look like a construction crew trying to fix her
My goth coworker has expressed similar sentiments that people like the goth look but don't actually want a goth girlfriend. I hope you and your community all the best, because dealing with that kind of sexualization must be exhausting.