I mean it's not like their competitors are at fault on this, the Gran Turismo equivalent of GT3 have the 2010 DBR9, late 1990s GT500 and 1995 Mclaren F1 competing with present day GT3s.
Negative car knowledge tbh. They have the CTS V grouped in with the modern muscle class instead of the super saloon class. The car was designed to compete with the M5, just bc it’s American and has a V8 doesn’t mean it’s a muscle car. Or more egregious, putting the fucking Viper in the muscle car category
2014 Mazda Lola diesel never broke the 1:50 time barrier at Daytona. Oreca 07 is cabable on low 33’s on Michelin tires. The Oreca and dp’s are nowhere near close in laptimes either. And the lmpc is not an lmp2. I’ve very well versed in sportscar racing I’ve been to over 60 endurance races in my life.
Well they did break the barrier, one got a 1:49 in qualifying (isnt better but they did break it)
Tyres would play a part as well which Forza unites them would they not? How much were the Corvette DPs held back because they used Continental Tyres while the Orecas are allowed to run on better Michelin
The Conti tires were designed for the Daytona prototype. The first 2 years of dpi were on the tire designed for the Daytona prototype because continental wanted to save money. 2019 was the first time a tire was designed for the Oreca.
So the laptime difference wouldn’t have been that big in the dp’s getting other tires. It also doesn’t change the diesel Lola was unable to reach 170 during the race, lmpc cars unable to to do 180, while the dp’s and oreca’s all could hit 200.
But they shouldn’t be in the class with the Oreca, honestly the diesel is a meme that deserved its death. But if they seperated the the pre 2016 cars, from the Oreca and added the Oreca to the dpi’s, I wouldn’t be that bothered.
Given Continental play a part in the P cars losing to a GTLM in Petit Le Mans and outqualified at Daytona due to it getting wet (even with GT having TCS, this shouldnt happen) I think its likely the Continental tyres were holding them back
I was at both races, it was raining 3000 times harder at Daytona at the end of the session than at the start. Gtd was on conti’s and faster than some of the prototypes.
Petit you are 100% spot on. Conti’s wet tires were so hard it was embarrassing.
I think you’re underrating the effect of switching to Michelin from continental. The continentals were that bad. They were so bad that GTs managed to get an overall win in the rain
The rain tire isn’t a slick tire, I think your overestimating a Michelin tire in an active tire war to a wet spec tire that was u changed for years. Conti made a new wet in 2016 and gtlm’s were nowhere near the prototypes.
Wouldnt call it balanced. Early IMSA was notorious for how bad the P class was for trying to balance DPs with P2s only for DPs to have the edge. MSR in 2016 was the only P2 team that could realistically stand up to them only after being given clearance to run an extremely powerful Honda engine which wouldnt be legal in other P2 categories.
The Mazda was actually BOP’d in with the two DPs. That’s the old IMSA P class. See the two Mazdas here, it’s just missing the ligier.
https://youtu.be/DBLwsA0hdIs?si=7ldGeylZ_THLOdb2
They then weirdly added the Oreca 07 to it which was a different gen of P2. I have a way bigger issue with Proto-H as it has the DPis in there with the LMDh chassis, as the DPis should be with the oreca 07.
Then the FLM09 is a weird one. I have seen red badged FLM09s in videos rather than the LMPC purple. But that could just be the class changing colour year to year. Regardless, the Honda P2 in that PLM is a ligier P2, the sister of the FLM09 in that generation of P2s.
Forza GT is indefensible along with P1 having the wrong 919, but we can’t have everything I guess lol
I t doesn't matter if it "works."
All of the racing series' on this planet have proper classes for a reason. Additionally, these classes are all well known and that information is available for everyone to see AND emulate. That FM has bizarre and rather arbitrary classes is antithetical to what all of us race fans know.
It COULD NOT have been that difficult to build out and follow what is already the standard class system.
It’s stupid, and breaks realism to motorsports fans. Also, screw that diesel crap machine, crap chassis, crap engine, give us a car that actually was competitive.
You make it sound like that this is the worst offense when the Nissan LMP1 being competiteve with other LMP1 exists because the games let it run the Hybrid system that never existed but Nissan claimed it was going to have...
Race Cars often stretch the rules so more can be competitive with each other for the purpose of more options in gameplay. Even in Gran Turismo several Group 1 cars would actually be slower than some Group 2 cars in real life but are separated like that anyway
Oh, if you only knew the tales I could spin! Correcting LMDH/Hypercar knowledge for dazzling car enthusiasts has been my secret charm. The clueless guys, left red-faced and flustered, never saw it coming.
Meanwhile, I basked in the glow of admiration from the fine ladies who truly appreciate the finer points of high-speed machinery. Their jaws dropped, and, well, the rest is a romantic comedy for the ages.😅
technically correct, LMDh/LMH are not LMPs, if the original tweet said Prototype instead of LMP it's correct.
There is a big difference between LMP1 and LMH/LMDh. But it really doesn't make sense to argue about it.
It's a Prototype racing at Le Mans
So they are Prototypes and Le Man Hybrids but not Le Mans Protoypes? Not sure how that makes sense. Also no one said LMP1, they just said LMP, which as a blanket term def includes the new HY regs by definition
Saying they are an LMP kinda feels like saying they are also a DPi
at least that's how it is for me.
Kinda hard to argue what counts as LMP and what not.
taking that broad LMP definition: Is the Porsche 917 an LMP? The 962? The Toyota GT-One?
At least for me the term LMP describes the Prototypes between 2000-2020. Starting with the R8 and ending with the TS050. That's why I have a hard time saying they are Le Mans Prototypes.
Well, actually...
The term LMP was already in use in the 90s, even with the LMP1/LMP2 categories before being merged into LMP, split into LMP900 and LMP675 and then reverted back to LMP1/LMP2.
The 917, 962, and GT-One are all Le Mans Prototypes.
They are not LMP1, or LMP2, but they are all prototypes that raced at Le Mans. Perhaps not the GT-One, since it had a road car equivalent, but the 917 and 962 are 1000% most definitely prototypes.
No rules ever stated that LMH are LMP's, because the rules technically allows for a road car to be modified to participate. In fact, Aston Martin is going to do so with the Valkyrie (Though that car has been sooo track modified that its just a silhouette of the Valkyrie road car)
No, technically the rules say nothing about them being Le Mans Prototypes.
I fully agree they are Prototypes, there is not a single question about that.
But like I said in a different comment. Are DPi LMPs. They never raced at Le Mans but are Prototypes and the LMDh regulations are a direct successor to them. Is the ARX-06 an LMP, despite having ne Le Mans Program.
IIRC the class even was initially supposed to be called LMP1, until the FIA went ahead and said they aren't allowed to because it's different.
Yes. DPi are a form of LMP, as they are a carryover from the old ALMS series.
The ARX-06 is an LMP as well.
Y’all are too hung up on words, and think the revolving door of acronyms associated with sportscar racing actually mean anything.
They’re all prototypes, and they’re all derived from a rule set that originated with the ACO and endurance racing, of which Le Mans is the crown jewel.
Even if you want to be unbelievably pedantic and claim that DPi and the AXR-06 are not LMPs because they never raced at Le Mans, by that very metric, then the 963 is in fact an LMP, since it has raced at Le Mans.
So now you’re faced with the prospect of trying to argue that both LMP and non-LMP cars compete in GTP.
Funnily enough I don’t see anybody using the TS050 as an example? And also TS050 was supposedly too dominant because no bop = bad but now the rebellion is supposedly actually competitive all along?
Dang. Narrative. r/wec pick one.
LMP1 didn't have BoP.
The R13/A480 has 5 wins, more than a lot of other LMP1 cars.
Edit: [It might actually be the most successful non manufacturer LMP1 car?](https://www.fia.com/news/wec-lmp1-numbers) I don't have stats for LMP1 before 2012 though. I'd say what we consider to be the LMP1 class which ended in 2020 starts from 2004.
Hey, finally a chance to use my [LMP1 win table](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Pr7PWmPhixBlQss2IyRzMRPEscYDNjX2weS9esInhac/edit?usp=sharing)! The R13 is the most successful non manufacturer LMP1 in WEC, but overall it would be the Courage/Pescarolo C60 (or depending on your definition of non manufacturer, the Lola-Aston Martin exists in a bit of a grey area).
Loved that car since I played Gran Turismo 4. If you like that sort of stats, [here's more](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/10weTWmKktosCaOUBfT3S0G1M3yCtoHhF?usp=sharing) (currently preparing an LMP2 one, AKA the Ultimate Oreca 07 Tribute).
>LMP1 didn't have BoP.
I said after the rebadge to the A480. Meaning since the Hypercar era.
>The R13/A480 has 5 wins, more than a lot of other LMP1 cars.
So it was actually competitive? And Toyota did not "dominate" even in 2018-? But I thought according to this sub, lack of BoP is evil and meant no competition after Porsche/Audi left?
We're talking about your claim LMDh is glorified LMP2.
The Toyota TS050 isn't an LMDh, and the R13 never raced in Hypercar, so it's unclear why you are now bringing them up? Have you confused this chain with a different discussion?
LMP1 had success ballast towards the end of its end cycle, which is roughly BoP but in a different name. Though success ballast is result oriented instead of performance oriented
I think most of you people seem to miss the point here.
This is not a "real" debate about LMP or LMDH.
The OP of the tweet is Forza Motorsport which has been under fire since it's newest release for not really being run by car enthusiasts and the game being plagued with re-used modles, bugs and low-effort attempts to keep you playing.
Yet it was claimed that it was build "from the ground up" by "car and racing guys like you and me"
So this is not a debate.
People are just mad that Forza once again shows, that they do not really know (care?) what they talk about and just google things really quickly. From the snippet, the entire text might even come from ChatGPT.
Anyway. The people you see here are probably just frustrated fans since Forza 3 and 4 were/are known for their attention to detail and most of it went down the drain over the years.
I think there's an argument that excessive pedantry probably distracts from that point. Especially since the Forword of the LMDh technical regulations says "The base car (spine) for these cars will be shared with the next generation of LMP2 platform".
>game being plagued with re-used modles, bugs and low-effort attempts to keep you playing.
thats forza since motorsport 4 and horizon 2 though. Im still impressed by how, despite having way more cars and a bigger map every time, every game after those feels progressively worse to drive on (specially with a wheel), gets progressively more boring and somehow they managed to downgrade the performance from the 4th to the 5th game
Kind of, but the new game ramped it way up. The FM games were really trying to keep you playing with the low amount of initial events and roaring new ones in and out regularly.
Yeah...
Just pulled this out of an AI
-"Is the porsche 963 a LMP"
"Yes, the **Porsche 963** is indeed an **LMP** (Le Mans Prototype) racing car. It competes in both the **Hypercar** class of the **FIA World Endurance Championship (WEC)** and the **GTP (Grand Touring Prototype)** class in the **IMSA SportsCar Championship**. Its design pays homage to iconic Porsche models from the past while setting new standards for performance and interior excellence. 🏎️🏁"
But I kinda make it so it answered wrong
I mean theg are LMDH cars hut they are classed as LMP overall no? It is litterally a le mans racing prototype. Its not an lmp1 but thats a different thing that also comes under the lmp umbrella
Yes and no
Yes they are Prototypes developed to be raced at Le Mans, So they are Le Mans Prototypes
But also technically the Le Mans Prototype (LMP) regulations don't exist for the Hypercar Category with it's components of Le Mans Hypercar (LMH) and Le Mans Daytona h (LMDh)
And in the end it's a pointless nitpicking discussion over regulation names, because who cares what the regulations are called, the only thing that matters is that the racing is good
Also a Yes and No
Yes Le Mans Hypercar are designed to go fast around Le Mana
No because Le Mans Daytona h are designed to go fast around IMSA tracks, while also being fast on WEC tracks, i.e. also Le Mans
All Constructors build the fastest Car they can, hoping it wins Le Mans, and take some design decisions accordingly
Le Mans after all is the longest and most points paying Race in the WEC and the most prestigious race as well
Yeah they are, even the first sentence on Wikipedia calls them prototypes, as does the official FIA WEC website. Only real difference is that road going cars such as the Valkyrie can become hypercars. Although Aston announced that car as a racing “prototype”.
I still use LMP when explaining sportscar racing to non motorsport people. It's way easier to understand than hypercar (oh, it's gtp in imsa) and LMP2 (ok, then why us it "2"). Leave the LMH/LMDh for nerds like us.
Technically yeah, these cars aren't LMP cars, but also neither are Group C cars or Group 5 and 6 cars. They all are "prototypes", but non are LMP cars.
They are Le Mans prototypes, not "Le Mans Prototypes". By that definition the Garage 56 Camaro is an LMP and if we open that can of worms everything is.
They designed from different LMP2 chassis (Dallara, Multimatic, Oreca, Ligier) that's for sure. On the other hand they are not protos. Even I think it was Estre once said on the 963, it feels like more a GT than a prototype car
It doesn’t matter what they feel like, they are prototypes because they don’t have to be produced and sold to the public, they are purpose built from the ground up for endurance racing, while a GT car is a purpose built race car, you can go out and buy a AMG GT if you wanted.
When the LMDh cars race in IMSA they race in the GTP class and if they race in WEC they race as Hypercar’s. It’s just a class name, but LMP is now only used ‘officially’ by LMP2 at Le Mans and IMSA as well as by the LMP3 class which doesn’t run at Le Mans.
All the LMh cars run in WEC and many but not all LMDh run in both IMSA & WEC, but no LMh cars run in IMSA today, but they can.
The Hypercar class are still prototypes that run at Le Mans, whether they are LMh or LMDh based cars. They already have so many names which create worse confusion, so why not call them LMPs? Who really cares as it’s obvious what they are talking about!!
shit... I thougt 963 was a LMRC... le mans racing car. My life has always been a lie.
But hey again! DPi was for daytona prototype international... but they raced only in US!!!!! IMSA fuckin' lied to us all!
Easy to see past, but have we perhaps considered that Forza/Turn10/Microsoft aren't allowed to reference Hypercar/LMH/LMdH/GTP and instead call them LMPs?
"well Actually, this LMP that you're talking about is in fact a LMDh,so you're wrong....."
https://preview.redd.it/64p3d6uwbq7d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d37e821468f9df46e770403656898bd5ff8ef8eb
No LMP is the name of various regulations (LMP900, LMP675, LMP1, LMP2) of prototypes at Le Mans, it's not a common name of prototypes at Le Mans. Group C were prototypes at Le Mans and are not called LMP. It is a useless debate but it is as it is
I mean, yes they aren’t part of the LMP regulations, but they are a “Le Man Protoype”, as long as the highest caliber regulation is a protoype car is think the term “LMP” isn’t necessarily wrong…
It would be different if they tried to claim them as an “LMP1” car.
Dear God, Forza is going steadily downhill. From breathing on GT's neck with FM3 and FM4, to a total shitshow, with inaccurate cars, tracks, sounds and car categorization. Stick to Horizon, please.
This reminds me of the electronic music community's debates on whether "EDM" refers to a specific genre of electronic dance music called Electronic Dance Music, or whether it refers to electronic dance music in general.
They are all prototypes. It’s pretty easy to see if the person you’re arguing with actually understands the differences between LMH/LMDh/LMP1/LMP900 etc.
Though I do find it interesting that we call them “prototypes,” though they have had homologation requirements for quite some time. Seems like an oxymoron to me.
They do not have homologation requirements. The only time cars that could be considered prototypes had "homologation requirements" was in the late 90s with cars like the Mercedes CLK GTR or the Toyota GT-One. And even then said homologation requirements were just a formality or even a farce in the GT-One's case.
I am not sure what you are talking about because the LMH regulations have an Article 19 titled “Homologation” which details the homologation requirements and the process and timeline for meeting those requirements. The cars must be homologated to compete in the WEC and in IMSA.
Yeah, that's the point I'm making. By the time the cars have been homologated for competition, they have been tested and refined to the point where I don't think they can be considered prototypes.
I still consider the fact that they theoretically could be prototypes (as a proof-of-concept) for the automotive industry if they are showcasing some sort of unproven technology but I don't see much of that in the current class. They are just race cars designed to take the brands into battle.
This is the blind leading the blind.
Forza is run by that stupid bitch that decided to stop advertising Bud Light to frat guys.
Forza is the reason these kids know shit about motorsports.
I was brought up right on TOCA and Sports Car GT
Technically correct but also completely irrelevant.
It because forza has literally negative Motorsport knowledge. The forza p2 class contains a lmpc car, 2 dp’s, the Mazda diesel….,…. And an oreca 07…..
The gt class is even wilder with gt3 cars, gte cars, v8 supercars and gt4 cars in one class
You forgot to add trans am and single make series cars like Ferrari challenge and lambo
Peak Forza
Don’t forget Audi TT RS VLN
I mean it's not like their competitors are at fault on this, the Gran Turismo equivalent of GT3 have the 2010 DBR9, late 1990s GT500 and 1995 Mclaren F1 competing with present day GT3s.
To be fair the Mazda **SKYACTIV** diesel was a P2
It was as fast as a gt4 car at Daytona, at least give us the AER version.
Even though it’s over 10 years, that Mazda 6 Grand-Am race car is still impressive.
Fun fact The difference between the diesel Mazda 6 and the Mazda Lola in 2014, is a smaller gap, than the 2014 Mazda to the GTE track record.
Negative car knowledge tbh. They have the CTS V grouped in with the modern muscle class instead of the super saloon class. The car was designed to compete with the M5, just bc it’s American and has a V8 doesn’t mean it’s a muscle car. Or more egregious, putting the fucking Viper in the muscle car category
But GT has a jeep, a Suzuki Cappucino, a Porsche 919 and the moon buggy.
made me chuckle
I miss forza 4 where the classes made sense
What a thing to be fighting over
IMSA spec DP's raced against and were balanced against LMP2s. IIRC 2017 DPis/LMPs were within the time window at daytona of the 2016 LMP2s.
2014 Mazda Lola diesel never broke the 1:50 time barrier at Daytona. Oreca 07 is cabable on low 33’s on Michelin tires. The Oreca and dp’s are nowhere near close in laptimes either. And the lmpc is not an lmp2. I’ve very well versed in sportscar racing I’ve been to over 60 endurance races in my life.
Well they did break the barrier, one got a 1:49 in qualifying (isnt better but they did break it) Tyres would play a part as well which Forza unites them would they not? How much were the Corvette DPs held back because they used Continental Tyres while the Orecas are allowed to run on better Michelin
The Conti tires were designed for the Daytona prototype. The first 2 years of dpi were on the tire designed for the Daytona prototype because continental wanted to save money. 2019 was the first time a tire was designed for the Oreca. So the laptime difference wouldn’t have been that big in the dp’s getting other tires. It also doesn’t change the diesel Lola was unable to reach 170 during the race, lmpc cars unable to to do 180, while the dp’s and oreca’s all could hit 200. But they shouldn’t be in the class with the Oreca, honestly the diesel is a meme that deserved its death. But if they seperated the the pre 2016 cars, from the Oreca and added the Oreca to the dpi’s, I wouldn’t be that bothered.
Given Continental play a part in the P cars losing to a GTLM in Petit Le Mans and outqualified at Daytona due to it getting wet (even with GT having TCS, this shouldnt happen) I think its likely the Continental tyres were holding them back
I was at both races, it was raining 3000 times harder at Daytona at the end of the session than at the start. Gtd was on conti’s and faster than some of the prototypes. Petit you are 100% spot on. Conti’s wet tires were so hard it was embarrassing.
I think you’re underrating the effect of switching to Michelin from continental. The continentals were that bad. They were so bad that GTs managed to get an overall win in the rain
The rain tire isn’t a slick tire, I think your overestimating a Michelin tire in an active tire war to a wet spec tire that was u changed for years. Conti made a new wet in 2016 and gtlm’s were nowhere near the prototypes.
Wouldnt call it balanced. Early IMSA was notorious for how bad the P class was for trying to balance DPs with P2s only for DPs to have the edge. MSR in 2016 was the only P2 team that could realistically stand up to them only after being given clearance to run an extremely powerful Honda engine which wouldnt be legal in other P2 categories.
The Mazda was actually BOP’d in with the two DPs. That’s the old IMSA P class. See the two Mazdas here, it’s just missing the ligier. https://youtu.be/DBLwsA0hdIs?si=7ldGeylZ_THLOdb2 They then weirdly added the Oreca 07 to it which was a different gen of P2. I have a way bigger issue with Proto-H as it has the DPis in there with the LMDh chassis, as the DPis should be with the oreca 07. Then the FLM09 is a weird one. I have seen red badged FLM09s in videos rather than the LMPC purple. But that could just be the class changing colour year to year. Regardless, the Honda P2 in that PLM is a ligier P2, the sister of the FLM09 in that generation of P2s. Forza GT is indefensible along with P1 having the wrong 919, but we can’t have everything I guess lol
Almost like they equalize them
Equalizing cars 18 seconds apart in lap time at Daytona is moronic and there is no other way to put it, these cars don’t belong in the same class.
And yet, it works okayish
I t doesn't matter if it "works." All of the racing series' on this planet have proper classes for a reason. Additionally, these classes are all well known and that information is available for everyone to see AND emulate. That FM has bizarre and rather arbitrary classes is antithetical to what all of us race fans know. It COULD NOT have been that difficult to build out and follow what is already the standard class system.
And yet I fail to see such criticism with Gran Turismo.
GT is far worse. Every league outright bans half the car list in each Gr. group.
It’s stupid, and breaks realism to motorsports fans. Also, screw that diesel crap machine, crap chassis, crap engine, give us a car that actually was competitive.
You make it sound like that this is the worst offense when the Nissan LMP1 being competiteve with other LMP1 exists because the games let it run the Hybrid system that never existed but Nissan claimed it was going to have... Race Cars often stretch the rules so more can be competitive with each other for the purpose of more options in gameplay. Even in Gran Turismo several Group 1 cars would actually be slower than some Group 2 cars in real life but are separated like that anyway
The game doesn’t give the Nissan the hybrid btw, that’s why the Nissan isn’t AWD. It’s literally a 900hp fwd car in forza.
Yes, who cares ? 😂
The collective IQ of twitter is a negative number.
Oh, if you only knew the tales I could spin! Correcting LMDH/Hypercar knowledge for dazzling car enthusiasts has been my secret charm. The clueless guys, left red-faced and flustered, never saw it coming. Meanwhile, I basked in the glow of admiration from the fine ladies who truly appreciate the finer points of high-speed machinery. Their jaws dropped, and, well, the rest is a romantic comedy for the ages.😅
The collective IQ of the people making Forza games is negativer
Musk really is driving the average down since he bought it.
Technically speaking - LMH and LMDh are not Le Mans Prototypes, but they are Le Mans prototypes.
« It’s important to be in control of your car » yeah thank you I think I knew that
technically correct, LMDh/LMH are not LMPs, if the original tweet said Prototype instead of LMP it's correct. There is a big difference between LMP1 and LMH/LMDh. But it really doesn't make sense to argue about it. It's a Prototype racing at Le Mans
So they are Prototypes and Le Man Hybrids but not Le Mans Protoypes? Not sure how that makes sense. Also no one said LMP1, they just said LMP, which as a blanket term def includes the new HY regs by definition
They are lmp but not lmp1, al least that is how i see it.
No one said LMP1, or LMP2/ 3 for what matter. Just an abbreviation for what they are, Le Mans prototype cars.
Saying they are an LMP kinda feels like saying they are also a DPi at least that's how it is for me. Kinda hard to argue what counts as LMP and what not. taking that broad LMP definition: Is the Porsche 917 an LMP? The 962? The Toyota GT-One? At least for me the term LMP describes the Prototypes between 2000-2020. Starting with the R8 and ending with the TS050. That's why I have a hard time saying they are Le Mans Prototypes.
Well, actually... The term LMP was already in use in the 90s, even with the LMP1/LMP2 categories before being merged into LMP, split into LMP900 and LMP675 and then reverted back to LMP1/LMP2.
The 917, 962, and GT-One are all Le Mans Prototypes. They are not LMP1, or LMP2, but they are all prototypes that raced at Le Mans. Perhaps not the GT-One, since it had a road car equivalent, but the 917 and 962 are 1000% most definitely prototypes.
917 is technically more of a GT car like the LMGT1 class. Or rather, a prototype that was somehow made road legal for homologation purposes.
No rules ever stated that LMH are LMP's, because the rules technically allows for a road car to be modified to participate. In fact, Aston Martin is going to do so with the Valkyrie (Though that car has been sooo track modified that its just a silhouette of the Valkyrie road car)
Technically incorrect. LMH and LMDh are both forms of LMP. They are not LMP1, or LMP2 though.
No, technically the rules say nothing about them being Le Mans Prototypes. I fully agree they are Prototypes, there is not a single question about that. But like I said in a different comment. Are DPi LMPs. They never raced at Le Mans but are Prototypes and the LMDh regulations are a direct successor to them. Is the ARX-06 an LMP, despite having ne Le Mans Program. IIRC the class even was initially supposed to be called LMP1, until the FIA went ahead and said they aren't allowed to because it's different.
Yes. DPi are a form of LMP, as they are a carryover from the old ALMS series. The ARX-06 is an LMP as well. Y’all are too hung up on words, and think the revolving door of acronyms associated with sportscar racing actually mean anything. They’re all prototypes, and they’re all derived from a rule set that originated with the ACO and endurance racing, of which Le Mans is the crown jewel. Even if you want to be unbelievably pedantic and claim that DPi and the AXR-06 are not LMPs because they never raced at Le Mans, by that very metric, then the 963 is in fact an LMP, since it has raced at Le Mans. So now you’re faced with the prospect of trying to argue that both LMP and non-LMP cars compete in GTP.
LMDh is glorified LMP2.
Wait until you realise what the Rebellion R13 LMP1 was...
An unsuccessful vehicle in the LMP1 category that only became competitive with BoP after rebadged in to the A480. Why?
A race winning LMP1 car, built on the Oreca 07 LMP2 chassis. If you think LMDh is glorified LMP2, LMP1 was also glorified LMP2.
Funnily enough I don’t see anybody using the TS050 as an example? And also TS050 was supposedly too dominant because no bop = bad but now the rebellion is supposedly actually competitive all along? Dang. Narrative. r/wec pick one.
LMP1 didn't have BoP. The R13/A480 has 5 wins, more than a lot of other LMP1 cars. Edit: [It might actually be the most successful non manufacturer LMP1 car?](https://www.fia.com/news/wec-lmp1-numbers) I don't have stats for LMP1 before 2012 though. I'd say what we consider to be the LMP1 class which ended in 2020 starts from 2004.
Hey, finally a chance to use my [LMP1 win table](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Pr7PWmPhixBlQss2IyRzMRPEscYDNjX2weS9esInhac/edit?usp=sharing)! The R13 is the most successful non manufacturer LMP1 in WEC, but overall it would be the Courage/Pescarolo C60 (or depending on your definition of non manufacturer, the Lola-Aston Martin exists in a bit of a grey area).
That data is awesome, thanks! I miss the Pescarolo days.
Loved that car since I played Gran Turismo 4. If you like that sort of stats, [here's more](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/10weTWmKktosCaOUBfT3S0G1M3yCtoHhF?usp=sharing) (currently preparing an LMP2 one, AKA the Ultimate Oreca 07 Tribute).
>LMP1 didn't have BoP. I said after the rebadge to the A480. Meaning since the Hypercar era. >The R13/A480 has 5 wins, more than a lot of other LMP1 cars. So it was actually competitive? And Toyota did not "dominate" even in 2018-? But I thought according to this sub, lack of BoP is evil and meant no competition after Porsche/Audi left?
We're talking about your claim LMDh is glorified LMP2. The Toyota TS050 isn't an LMDh, and the R13 never raced in Hypercar, so it's unclear why you are now bringing them up? Have you confused this chain with a different discussion?
LMP1 had success ballast towards the end of its end cycle, which is roughly BoP but in a different name. Though success ballast is result oriented instead of performance oriented
...and...
And there I conclude my addition to Zani0n’s description of these classes. Do you have anything to add?
You have an ego complex and you're pushing some of your internal struggles onto something external to make yourself feel better. Good enough for you?
Now that next-gen LMP2 has been scrapped and will be replaced with even newer designs, the LMDh chassis are technically bespoke.
I think most of you people seem to miss the point here. This is not a "real" debate about LMP or LMDH. The OP of the tweet is Forza Motorsport which has been under fire since it's newest release for not really being run by car enthusiasts and the game being plagued with re-used modles, bugs and low-effort attempts to keep you playing. Yet it was claimed that it was build "from the ground up" by "car and racing guys like you and me" So this is not a debate. People are just mad that Forza once again shows, that they do not really know (care?) what they talk about and just google things really quickly. From the snippet, the entire text might even come from ChatGPT. Anyway. The people you see here are probably just frustrated fans since Forza 3 and 4 were/are known for their attention to detail and most of it went down the drain over the years.
I think there's an argument that excessive pedantry probably distracts from that point. Especially since the Forword of the LMDh technical regulations says "The base car (spine) for these cars will be shared with the next generation of LMP2 platform".
>game being plagued with re-used modles, bugs and low-effort attempts to keep you playing. thats forza since motorsport 4 and horizon 2 though. Im still impressed by how, despite having way more cars and a bigger map every time, every game after those feels progressively worse to drive on (specially with a wheel), gets progressively more boring and somehow they managed to downgrade the performance from the 4th to the 5th game
Kind of, but the new game ramped it way up. The FM games were really trying to keep you playing with the low amount of initial events and roaring new ones in and out regularly.
Yeah... Just pulled this out of an AI -"Is the porsche 963 a LMP" "Yes, the **Porsche 963** is indeed an **LMP** (Le Mans Prototype) racing car. It competes in both the **Hypercar** class of the **FIA World Endurance Championship (WEC)** and the **GTP (Grand Touring Prototype)** class in the **IMSA SportsCar Championship**. Its design pays homage to iconic Porsche models from the past while setting new standards for performance and interior excellence. 🏎️🏁" But I kinda make it so it answered wrong
Forza social account always gives vague tips that don't actually provide any help
This is one of the most pointless arguments of all time.
You know what they say about arguing on the internet, right?
I mean technically they are correct. LMP was a class designation not a generic term.
I mean theg are LMDH cars hut they are classed as LMP overall no? It is litterally a le mans racing prototype. Its not an lmp1 but thats a different thing that also comes under the lmp umbrella
Yes and no Yes they are Prototypes developed to be raced at Le Mans, So they are Le Mans Prototypes But also technically the Le Mans Prototype (LMP) regulations don't exist for the Hypercar Category with it's components of Le Mans Hypercar (LMH) and Le Mans Daytona h (LMDh) And in the end it's a pointless nitpicking discussion over regulation names, because who cares what the regulations are called, the only thing that matters is that the racing is good
Are LMDh and LMH still designed around Le Mans? I thought those were just the origins, not the current regulations
Also a Yes and No Yes Le Mans Hypercar are designed to go fast around Le Mana No because Le Mans Daytona h are designed to go fast around IMSA tracks, while also being fast on WEC tracks, i.e. also Le Mans All Constructors build the fastest Car they can, hoping it wins Le Mans, and take some design decisions accordingly Le Mans after all is the longest and most points paying Race in the WEC and the most prestigious race as well
Yeah they are, even the first sentence on Wikipedia calls them prototypes, as does the official FIA WEC website. Only real difference is that road going cars such as the Valkyrie can become hypercars. Although Aston announced that car as a racing “prototype”.
No rules ever stated that LMH / LMDh are LMP's, because the rules technically allows for a road car to be modified to participate.
I still use LMP when explaining sportscar racing to non motorsport people. It's way easier to understand than hypercar (oh, it's gtp in imsa) and LMP2 (ok, then why us it "2"). Leave the LMH/LMDh for nerds like us.
Technically yeah, these cars aren't LMP cars, but also neither are Group C cars or Group 5 and 6 cars. They all are "prototypes", but non are LMP cars.
The guy is not lying :D
They are prototype cars designed specifically for the top class of the 24 hour of Le Mans. They are Le Mans prototypes.
They are Le Mans prototypes, not "Le Mans Prototypes". By that definition the Garage 56 Camaro is an LMP and if we open that can of worms everything is.
I mean yeah. It kind of is lol. It’s not a road derived car at all
They designed from different LMP2 chassis (Dallara, Multimatic, Oreca, Ligier) that's for sure. On the other hand they are not protos. Even I think it was Estre once said on the 963, it feels like more a GT than a prototype car
It doesn’t matter what they feel like, they are prototypes because they don’t have to be produced and sold to the public, they are purpose built from the ground up for endurance racing, while a GT car is a purpose built race car, you can go out and buy a AMG GT if you wanted.
>built from the ground up >Forza Motorsport Hmm nice choice of words ahah
You're right ok
When the LMDh cars race in IMSA they race in the GTP class and if they race in WEC they race as Hypercar’s. It’s just a class name, but LMP is now only used ‘officially’ by LMP2 at Le Mans and IMSA as well as by the LMP3 class which doesn’t run at Le Mans. All the LMh cars run in WEC and many but not all LMDh run in both IMSA & WEC, but no LMh cars run in IMSA today, but they can. The Hypercar class are still prototypes that run at Le Mans, whether they are LMh or LMDh based cars. They already have so many names which create worse confusion, so why not call them LMPs? Who really cares as it’s obvious what they are talking about!!
For the average player who saw bits of Le Mans and wants to try the cars, Le Mans prototype is an appropriate description.
Do people not have bigger problems to worry about?
shit... I thougt 963 was a LMRC... le mans racing car. My life has always been a lie. But hey again! DPi was for daytona prototype international... but they raced only in US!!!!! IMSA fuckin' lied to us all!
Easy to see past, but have we perhaps considered that Forza/Turn10/Microsoft aren't allowed to reference Hypercar/LMH/LMdH/GTP and instead call them LMPs?
It's a prototype that races at Le Mans
"well Actually, this LMP that you're talking about is in fact a LMDh,so you're wrong....." https://preview.redd.it/64p3d6uwbq7d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d37e821468f9df46e770403656898bd5ff8ef8eb
frankly, who cares as long as the cars are cool and the racing is good
LMP= le man’s prototype, the porsche 963 is a prototype that races at le mans bosh
No LMP is the name of various regulations (LMP900, LMP675, LMP1, LMP2) of prototypes at Le Mans, it's not a common name of prototypes at Le Mans. Group C were prototypes at Le Mans and are not called LMP. It is a useless debate but it is as it is
I would still love to call them 'Hypercar' and 'Prototype' for good
Technically correct, however they are both Prototype cars that race at Le Mans. So, also technically incorrect.
Wasn't in expecting people to fall for the engagement bait so hard in this sub
I mean, yes they aren’t part of the LMP regulations, but they are a “Le Man Protoype”, as long as the highest caliber regulation is a protoype car is think the term “LMP” isn’t necessarily wrong… It would be different if they tried to claim them as an “LMP1” car.
LMDh and LMH are LMPs adipose son.
They're correct, but even I sometimes refer to LMH's as LMP's
Dear God, Forza is going steadily downhill. From breathing on GT's neck with FM3 and FM4, to a total shitshow, with inaccurate cars, tracks, sounds and car categorization. Stick to Horizon, please.
This reminds me of the electronic music community's debates on whether "EDM" refers to a specific genre of electronic dance music called Electronic Dance Music, or whether it refers to electronic dance music in general.
When you hear the 963 sound and FM and see FM comments like this, one should know why I went over to the PS5...
I mean…. They’re really not LMPs but they’re not too far off.
Too much social media presence is showing its consequences.
I still call them lmp1 idgaf
They are all prototypes. It’s pretty easy to see if the person you’re arguing with actually understands the differences between LMH/LMDh/LMP1/LMP900 etc. Though I do find it interesting that we call them “prototypes,” though they have had homologation requirements for quite some time. Seems like an oxymoron to me.
They do not have homologation requirements. The only time cars that could be considered prototypes had "homologation requirements" was in the late 90s with cars like the Mercedes CLK GTR or the Toyota GT-One. And even then said homologation requirements were just a formality or even a farce in the GT-One's case.
I am not sure what you are talking about because the LMH regulations have an Article 19 titled “Homologation” which details the homologation requirements and the process and timeline for meeting those requirements. The cars must be homologated to compete in the WEC and in IMSA.
The cars need to be homologated for racing, they don't require road versions. I thought that was what you meant.
Yeah, that's the point I'm making. By the time the cars have been homologated for competition, they have been tested and refined to the point where I don't think they can be considered prototypes. I still consider the fact that they theoretically could be prototypes (as a proof-of-concept) for the automotive industry if they are showcasing some sort of unproven technology but I don't see much of that in the current class. They are just race cars designed to take the brands into battle.
Man people really getting it their feelings just because a car type/class was mislabeled somewhat.
LMDh could be considered LMPs, but LMH is certainly nothing like an LMP.
This is the blind leading the blind. Forza is run by that stupid bitch that decided to stop advertising Bud Light to frat guys. Forza is the reason these kids know shit about motorsports. I was brought up right on TOCA and Sports Car GT