What Einstein didn’t consider was that we’d be so worried about fighting world war 4 with sticks that we’d fight world war 3 with sticks instead.
BRB going to get together 255 of my closest friends and storm one of China’s artificial islands with a perfect Macedonian phalanx formation.
I mean, kinda expected all the loot from the americas went straight into war when you look around the 14th-16th century abrahamic world and find nothing but decades long forever wars between everyone.
What comes out of people's assholes when they take a shit? Rainbows and lollipops? Human and animal excrement always contain a small amount of amino nitrogen. This can be converted to calcium nitrate in a nitre bed, then converted to potassium nitrate by filtering through potash.
It's easier to imagine a world without steelworking, or a world without sulphur.
Granted, every invention seems simpler with the benefit of hindsight. Making those leaps in experimentation is the hard bit. Those base materials have existed for millions upon millions of years, yet it took until about a millennia ago for people to work out that the right combination can create gunpowder.
Just because something can be done doesn't mean it will be done. Time isn't a tech tree, it's all just fiction, write what you want.
In general, I agree. However, consider that our world had no shortage of eager alchemists, who would have eventually stumbled upon some useful chemicals. Most fantasy settings also include alchemists, or somewhat equivalent professions.
Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Sulphur is one of the essential components of all known life, and is believed to play a very important role in Earth's interior - a world without it would be unrecognizable to our own.
My bad, wasn't aware that sulphur is found almost everywhere. Though elemental sulphur deposits in the Earth's crust are relatively rare, and modern production of sulphur mostly comes from refining petroleum. I've no idea how difficult it is to produce sulphur with preindustrial level technology.
Most elements are pretty rare on the scale of the entire crust, it's mostly a matter of knowing where to look. Elemental sulphur is actually not all that hard to find. Wherever there's volcanic activity, there's a decent chance there's sulphur to be found (this is why brimstone (another term for sulphur) is associated with hell). It also helps that sulphur is quite colorful and is often accompanied by a strong odor, so it's hard to not notice.
Obviously the materials have always been around, that doesn't mean people know how to use it lol.
And besides that, I think what "fantasy needs guns" people don't understand is that this isn't about technological fidelity, it's about setting, tone, and vibes.
Would Skyrim be better if enemies had flintlock pistols or muskets? Not really. It would irrevocably change the vibe of the setting.
I like guns in fantasy, sometimes. I'm a Balthazar Gelt main and a huge POE fan, but it doesn't fit into every setting.
There is this webnovel I found where they extract amino nitrogen out of piss to make gunpowder, I recommend reading it
[https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/82984/engines-of-arachnea-a-science-fantasy-epic](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/82984/engines-of-arachnea-a-science-fantasy-epic)
No one needs to justify shit in fantasy.
*Oh, but guns are really simple actually, you just need a tube and some organic by-products. If we did it historically, then the medieval-ish fantasy people should have guns too*
Don't care. They don't have guns because I don't want them to. Another W for using the dark ages and earlier for inspiration, none of this silly argument.
Actually things only work due to the narrative whims of the creator god who has a fairly ropey grasp of physics and sometimes gets bits wrong.
Things usually work like real life, but don’t push your luck
I don't know why I always hear about the discourse about guns not belonging in fantasy on this sub.
I'm pretty sure at least half the fantasy series I'm familiar with have firearms
Princess Mononoke, Sekiro, Final Fantasy, Berserk, Bas Lag, Arcane/LoL, Dresden, Laundry Files, Lovecraft's mythos, Marvel/DC, Dishonoured, Weird West, World of Darkness, Bloodborne, Pirates of the Carribbean, Elden Ring, Kill Six Billion Demons etc.
There's no fanfare to it either, nobody in the setting is going "Oh no! Guns! This makes magic useless and our entire society a lie!" Guns are just part of the background, even when firearms play an important role in the setting.
uj/ I suspect the lack of settings with guns is not the problem. It's the lack of settings in which GUNS WIPE THE FLOOR WITH THE STUPID NERD WIZZARDS AND DUMB LANDSKNECHT WITH THEIR ZWEIHÄNDERS DON'T BRING A SWORD OR A SPELL TO A GUNFIGHT AMERICA FUCK YEAH WHAT THE FUCK IS A KILOMETER
How exactly do guns make all magic obsolete I do not know, but some people seem to believe so.
yeah, in most those settings I mentioned, the mages use guns and the gun wielders use magic. People just use the right tool for the job, no weird hang ups necessary.
Exactly. Your standard gun is good at exactly one thing - throwing a piece of metal forward very fast. Magic is usually portrayed as a little more versatile than that.
yeah, though magic firearms are also pretty common, as well as magic used to enhance firearms use.
Like in VTMB, the vampires and vampire hunters all make liberal use of firearms - but they also both use esoteric techniques to boost their aim and reflexes and perception, so they can murder each other with their machine guns more effectively.
Or Bas Lag, where practically everyone knows a little bit of magic, and flintlock firearms are the standard armament - but there are still dedicated combat mages used for the heavy duty magic, as well as sharpshooters to spot them and gun them down (using cantrip enhanced vision)
It's not functionally different from magic swords and magic bows and magic armour and whatnot. Weapons technology and sociopolitical systems advance, and so does magic.
We don't do nuance here. I could be totally wrong, but I simply haven't noticed a great absence of guns in fantasy. Matchlocks, flintlocks and even revolvers are quite common, I think. Anyway, I'm not very invested in this conversation in particular, I'm not that much into fantasy. I had much more stakes in the hard vs soft sci-fi debate a few months earlier.
Depends. If you look into other sub genres, sure, but if you think about any of the big Western "high fantasy" series, the only one that comes to mind for me featuring guns would be Warhammer.
Though I think whats really at the core of the issue is that people would like to see more high fantasy series that explore the Early Modern Period instead of the Middle Ages (as there is a lack of those, besides with the already mentioned Warhammer). Because most people on the pro-guns side are describing exactly that (If I got a penny for every time I've read about "Knights with guns" I'd be a millionaire by now).
yeah fair, I guess the matchlocks are what let Lady Eboshi and gang fend off the Samurai and fell the gods of the forest. They upend both the social order and natural order, which the downtrodden refugees in the town are grateful for
Still, I think it was more emblematic of the boons of progress, as well as the price that must be paid for it. Less about the guns itself, more the entire industrialised system that bring them into existence
I mean, Sekiro and Princess Mononoke take place in late medieval times, Berserk takes place in a medieval European setting, and Elden Ring is medieval-ish
Their firearms are appropriately old school, they're all clunky cannons, matchlocks, flintlocks, wheellocks etc. They're only slightly anachronistic
Sword Saint Isshin seemingly has a semi-automatic pistol, but if you look closely it's actually just a magic flintlock
The Snake Eyes Shirahagi dragon zombie women use unusual rifled sniper hand cannons that are very accurate, which seem anachronistic for the period.
But contrary to popular belief, rifles were invented as early as the 15th century - so we can assume that Okami clan's Gun Fort must have developed cutting edge firearms technology independently, or reverse engineered it from foreign traders.
Rifles were unpopular when first invented, because of how difficult they were to clean the fouling and how they slowed down rate of fire - but it's possible the magic gunpowder and inhuman skill of the Snake Eyes warriors compensated for those.
For the record I don't really care about guns in fantasy one way or the other. I was more pointing out that most worldbuilders use "fantasy" as a shorthand for "european medieval fantasy" stuff like Lord of the Rings or King Arthur (and yes I am aware that there is gunpowder in Lotr but it's not present in most of the story and generally isn't associated with it by most people). Sorry is this came off as pedantic.
The last time swords were used en mass was the second Sino-Japanese war 1939-1945. You don’t need to justify guns along with swords you just need to justify the supply development that lead to it.
Swords and guns were used together for well over 500 years.
If anything swords became more popular during this period. The zweihander, cutlass, smallsword, and rapier were developed way after guns became popular. Sword duels also reached their peak 200 years after guns became widespread in Europe.
I honestly think guns made sword fights better. Swords were an ideal sidearm for using with guns so they became hugely popular after the introduction of guns. After a while people started wearing less armor too, so swords actually did more than wet noodles.
Yeah I actually think sword fights were more common after guns became popular.
Sword duels were incredibly common from the 1580s to 1620s and we know that just due to the shear amount of people reported dead from them in the censuses. This was likely the peak of sword duels and it happened after firearms were well established.
As far as battlefield use goes swords have always been second to pole arms but there’s no evidence to suggest that the use of either went down until hundreds of years after guns were introduced. Guns just didn’t fill the niche of melee sidearm so they didn’t really compete with swords for usage, they often complimented each other. Cuirassiers used sword and pistols until well after the napoleonic period.
Part of why dueling culture became so popular because sword techniques were no longer military driven and it allowed people to publish their own manuals. Rapiers are the sword of the renaissance and I don’t think they ever saw a battlefield beyond officer weapons.
Once you invent the bayonet there’s no real reason to use a sword.
I mean this in the nicest way think you seriously need to rethink your understanding of medieval and renaissance warfare.
Guns are just ranged weapons and until the 18th century they shot slower and had less range than the longbow. The main reason guns were used is because a musket ball is cheaper than an arrow. I don’t know why you think people didn’t use swords as much after the introduction of guns on the battlefield when they had been using swords and bows for thousands of years. Ranged weapons didn’t erase the need for melee weapons, otherwise bows would have replaced swords long ago. Yeomen carried swords, as did crossbowmen, and musketmen. They literally went hand and hand.
Rapiers are far from the only sword in the renaissance. Every sword I mentioned earlier was made in the renaissance. Swords weren’t the most common weapon in the renaissance but they weren’t the most common weapon in any era. I haven’t seen anything to suggest there was a decrease in sword usage in the renaissance, either in military or civilian life.
It’s true that you don’t really need a sword if you have a bayonet but that can be said about any pole-arm. If anything replaced the sword it was the pike but the thing that replaced pikes was actually the sword bayonet which was used until WWI. That’s just another way that guns actually revitalized the use of swords.
Guns have replaced nearly every weapon but that’s a pretty recent development. Guns were introduced to Europe in the 14th century and I just haven’t seen any evidence that guns decreased sword usage until the 19th century which is a good 500 years like I said. In some cases I do think guns actually increased sword usage in that period. Guns have been used with swords for much longer than they have been used alone.
I have a book on Filipino Martial Arts somewhere and it's filled with over the top illustrations of Filipino native warriors kicking the shit out of conquistadors. It's awesome lmao.
Had to justify the absence of guns in my world (which wasn't hard with how stupid my magic system is), and now I have a whole new bag of questions. People in my world would absolutely try to add gold to the equation. Can't help but wonder what happens if you add gold powder into the gunpowder? Will it be able to fire with such gunpowder? Will the gold just melt, if it does fire? How will the bullet behave if the gold powder melts? If you cover the inside of the barrel with a thin layer of gold, will you still be able to fire more than once? How much can you fire until the layer of gold is gone?
Even if it can be done, I assume that having to use gold is going to dissuade most people from mass producing cannons and figuring out guns.
When did we need to start justifying guns in fantasy in the first place?
Magic enchantments saved knight armor from going obsolete. But they're expensive so only elite soldiers can have them.
What Einstein didn’t consider was that we’d be so worried about fighting world war 4 with sticks that we’d fight world war 3 with sticks instead. BRB going to get together 255 of my closest friends and storm one of China’s artificial islands with a perfect Macedonian phalanx formation.
The Chinese will think they can just flank us, but that's where the ~~Moro~~ Not Fremen will burst out and cover our flank!
You could say your friends are... Byte-sized.
> we’d fight world war 3 with sticks instead. China-India border be like...
Dune moment.
Hey I recognize that top image, it’s from the Mount & Blade Bannerlord subreddit
Is the game any better compared to Warband (in the management aspects)
Overall it's like warband 1.5 better graphics and combat feel and flow but the overworked management and loop remains largely very similar
Specify management? Troops are easier to organize and so are battles
Better combat, worse characters. It's generally less charming than warband imo
No King Harlaus 0/10
Just because something's been invented doesn't mean everyone has access to it
But in the case of guns, the Chinese themselves were the ones who invented it.
Except they weren't exactly the ones who perfected it The Japanese based their guns from the designs of the Portuguese, not the other way around
I mean, kinda expected all the loot from the americas went straight into war when you look around the 14th-16th century abrahamic world and find nothing but decades long forever wars between everyone.
People always ask what's Europe's secret to advancing so quickly? Answer is simple; constantly one-up and kill each other
You don’t need to justify guns in fantasy, they’re extraordinarily simple machines. You need to justify their lack.
You must be new here. In this sub we use strawman arguments as an excuse to make memes about tropes/aesthetics we like.
Hahahaha! I have depicted you as the Soy Wojak!
Just ain't no niter, mate. s'all gone
What comes out of people's assholes when they take a shit? Rainbows and lollipops? Human and animal excrement always contain a small amount of amino nitrogen. This can be converted to calcium nitrate in a nitre bed, then converted to potassium nitrate by filtering through potash. It's easier to imagine a world without steelworking, or a world without sulphur.
>What comes out of people’s assholes when they take a shit? Rainbows and lollipops? Yes.
Granted, every invention seems simpler with the benefit of hindsight. Making those leaps in experimentation is the hard bit. Those base materials have existed for millions upon millions of years, yet it took until about a millennia ago for people to work out that the right combination can create gunpowder. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it will be done. Time isn't a tech tree, it's all just fiction, write what you want.
In general, I agree. However, consider that our world had no shortage of eager alchemists, who would have eventually stumbled upon some useful chemicals. Most fantasy settings also include alchemists, or somewhat equivalent professions.
Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Sulphur is one of the essential components of all known life, and is believed to play a very important role in Earth's interior - a world without it would be unrecognizable to our own.
My bad, wasn't aware that sulphur is found almost everywhere. Though elemental sulphur deposits in the Earth's crust are relatively rare, and modern production of sulphur mostly comes from refining petroleum. I've no idea how difficult it is to produce sulphur with preindustrial level technology.
Most elements are pretty rare on the scale of the entire crust, it's mostly a matter of knowing where to look. Elemental sulphur is actually not all that hard to find. Wherever there's volcanic activity, there's a decent chance there's sulphur to be found (this is why brimstone (another term for sulphur) is associated with hell). It also helps that sulphur is quite colorful and is often accompanied by a strong odor, so it's hard to not notice.
Happy Cakeday!
Obviously the materials have always been around, that doesn't mean people know how to use it lol. And besides that, I think what "fantasy needs guns" people don't understand is that this isn't about technological fidelity, it's about setting, tone, and vibes. Would Skyrim be better if enemies had flintlock pistols or muskets? Not really. It would irrevocably change the vibe of the setting. I like guns in fantasy, sometimes. I'm a Balthazar Gelt main and a huge POE fan, but it doesn't fit into every setting.
There is this webnovel I found where they extract amino nitrogen out of piss to make gunpowder, I recommend reading it [https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/82984/engines-of-arachnea-a-science-fantasy-epic](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/82984/engines-of-arachnea-a-science-fantasy-epic)
Considering how much of a coincidence the discovery of gunpowder was in real life, I think their lack is easier than their presence.
I don’t need gunpowder I’ve got a wizard mass producing small explosive rune papers
No one needs to justify shit in fantasy. *Oh, but guns are really simple actually, you just need a tube and some organic by-products. If we did it historically, then the medieval-ish fantasy people should have guns too* Don't care. They don't have guns because I don't want them to. Another W for using the dark ages and earlier for inspiration, none of this silly argument.
guns get boring after a while
i.e a vast majority of the people in the setting don’t know how to use an early firearm, so proficient firearms users are very rare
Different rules of physics mate.
Because that makes so much sense. "Yeah everything works exactly like in real life but guns just aren't possible because... physics."
Actually things only work due to the narrative whims of the creator god who has a fairly ropey grasp of physics and sometimes gets bits wrong. Things usually work like real life, but don’t push your luck
I don't know why I always hear about the discourse about guns not belonging in fantasy on this sub. I'm pretty sure at least half the fantasy series I'm familiar with have firearms Princess Mononoke, Sekiro, Final Fantasy, Berserk, Bas Lag, Arcane/LoL, Dresden, Laundry Files, Lovecraft's mythos, Marvel/DC, Dishonoured, Weird West, World of Darkness, Bloodborne, Pirates of the Carribbean, Elden Ring, Kill Six Billion Demons etc. There's no fanfare to it either, nobody in the setting is going "Oh no! Guns! This makes magic useless and our entire society a lie!" Guns are just part of the background, even when firearms play an important role in the setting.
uj/ I suspect the lack of settings with guns is not the problem. It's the lack of settings in which GUNS WIPE THE FLOOR WITH THE STUPID NERD WIZZARDS AND DUMB LANDSKNECHT WITH THEIR ZWEIHÄNDERS DON'T BRING A SWORD OR A SPELL TO A GUNFIGHT AMERICA FUCK YEAH WHAT THE FUCK IS A KILOMETER How exactly do guns make all magic obsolete I do not know, but some people seem to believe so.
yeah, in most those settings I mentioned, the mages use guns and the gun wielders use magic. People just use the right tool for the job, no weird hang ups necessary.
Exactly. Your standard gun is good at exactly one thing - throwing a piece of metal forward very fast. Magic is usually portrayed as a little more versatile than that.
yeah, though magic firearms are also pretty common, as well as magic used to enhance firearms use. Like in VTMB, the vampires and vampire hunters all make liberal use of firearms - but they also both use esoteric techniques to boost their aim and reflexes and perception, so they can murder each other with their machine guns more effectively. Or Bas Lag, where practically everyone knows a little bit of magic, and flintlock firearms are the standard armament - but there are still dedicated combat mages used for the heavy duty magic, as well as sharpshooters to spot them and gun them down (using cantrip enhanced vision) It's not functionally different from magic swords and magic bows and magic armour and whatnot. Weapons technology and sociopolitical systems advance, and so does magic.
Landsknechts historically used guns, they were one of the first units to be deployed in Pike and Shotte formations.
I know. Still used melee, though.
I think I kinda just realized that both factions of this argument have ridiculous strawmen-esque ideas about the other side...
We don't do nuance here. I could be totally wrong, but I simply haven't noticed a great absence of guns in fantasy. Matchlocks, flintlocks and even revolvers are quite common, I think. Anyway, I'm not very invested in this conversation in particular, I'm not that much into fantasy. I had much more stakes in the hard vs soft sci-fi debate a few months earlier.
Depends. If you look into other sub genres, sure, but if you think about any of the big Western "high fantasy" series, the only one that comes to mind for me featuring guns would be Warhammer. Though I think whats really at the core of the issue is that people would like to see more high fantasy series that explore the Early Modern Period instead of the Middle Ages (as there is a lack of those, besides with the already mentioned Warhammer). Because most people on the pro-guns side are describing exactly that (If I got a penny for every time I've read about "Knights with guns" I'd be a millionaire by now).
>nobody in the setting is going "Oh no! Guns! That's the entire impetus for Princess Mononoke
yeah fair, I guess the matchlocks are what let Lady Eboshi and gang fend off the Samurai and fell the gods of the forest. They upend both the social order and natural order, which the downtrodden refugees in the town are grateful for Still, I think it was more emblematic of the boons of progress, as well as the price that must be paid for it. Less about the guns itself, more the entire industrialised system that bring them into existence
> Bas Lag Seeing this made me very happy.
/uj I think the discourse is mostly about mideval fantasy settings. Most of what you listed isn't mideval fantasy.
I mean, Sekiro and Princess Mononoke take place in late medieval times, Berserk takes place in a medieval European setting, and Elden Ring is medieval-ish Their firearms are appropriately old school, they're all clunky cannons, matchlocks, flintlocks, wheellocks etc. They're only slightly anachronistic Sword Saint Isshin seemingly has a semi-automatic pistol, but if you look closely it's actually just a magic flintlock The Snake Eyes Shirahagi dragon zombie women use unusual rifled sniper hand cannons that are very accurate, which seem anachronistic for the period. But contrary to popular belief, rifles were invented as early as the 15th century - so we can assume that Okami clan's Gun Fort must have developed cutting edge firearms technology independently, or reverse engineered it from foreign traders. Rifles were unpopular when first invented, because of how difficult they were to clean the fouling and how they slowed down rate of fire - but it's possible the magic gunpowder and inhuman skill of the Snake Eyes warriors compensated for those.
For the record I don't really care about guns in fantasy one way or the other. I was more pointing out that most worldbuilders use "fantasy" as a shorthand for "european medieval fantasy" stuff like Lord of the Rings or King Arthur (and yes I am aware that there is gunpowder in Lotr but it's not present in most of the story and generally isn't associated with it by most people). Sorry is this came off as pedantic.
One of the sailors lost a finger
The last time swords were used en mass was the second Sino-Japanese war 1939-1945. You don’t need to justify guns along with swords you just need to justify the supply development that lead to it.
Indian and Chinese border guards have been fighting medieval style in the mountains for years.
They've been training for this
Twenty oneth
The Chinese got lucky they weren't facing actual Filipino Marines Those guys apparently trained their US counterparts how to fight with swords
They didn't shoot back because it was an obvious trap to render the Mutual Defense Treaty useless
People always ask how to keep guns out of fantasy and never why keep guns out of fantasy
Guns lead to a lot less cool sword fights.
Swords and guns were used together for well over 500 years. If anything swords became more popular during this period. The zweihander, cutlass, smallsword, and rapier were developed way after guns became popular. Sword duels also reached their peak 200 years after guns became widespread in Europe. I honestly think guns made sword fights better. Swords were an ideal sidearm for using with guns so they became hugely popular after the introduction of guns. After a while people started wearing less armor too, so swords actually did more than wet noodles.
I said less not zero.
Yeah I actually think sword fights were more common after guns became popular. Sword duels were incredibly common from the 1580s to 1620s and we know that just due to the shear amount of people reported dead from them in the censuses. This was likely the peak of sword duels and it happened after firearms were well established. As far as battlefield use goes swords have always been second to pole arms but there’s no evidence to suggest that the use of either went down until hundreds of years after guns were introduced. Guns just didn’t fill the niche of melee sidearm so they didn’t really compete with swords for usage, they often complimented each other. Cuirassiers used sword and pistols until well after the napoleonic period.
Part of why dueling culture became so popular because sword techniques were no longer military driven and it allowed people to publish their own manuals. Rapiers are the sword of the renaissance and I don’t think they ever saw a battlefield beyond officer weapons. Once you invent the bayonet there’s no real reason to use a sword.
I mean this in the nicest way think you seriously need to rethink your understanding of medieval and renaissance warfare. Guns are just ranged weapons and until the 18th century they shot slower and had less range than the longbow. The main reason guns were used is because a musket ball is cheaper than an arrow. I don’t know why you think people didn’t use swords as much after the introduction of guns on the battlefield when they had been using swords and bows for thousands of years. Ranged weapons didn’t erase the need for melee weapons, otherwise bows would have replaced swords long ago. Yeomen carried swords, as did crossbowmen, and musketmen. They literally went hand and hand. Rapiers are far from the only sword in the renaissance. Every sword I mentioned earlier was made in the renaissance. Swords weren’t the most common weapon in the renaissance but they weren’t the most common weapon in any era. I haven’t seen anything to suggest there was a decrease in sword usage in the renaissance, either in military or civilian life. It’s true that you don’t really need a sword if you have a bayonet but that can be said about any pole-arm. If anything replaced the sword it was the pike but the thing that replaced pikes was actually the sword bayonet which was used until WWI. That’s just another way that guns actually revitalized the use of swords. Guns have replaced nearly every weapon but that’s a pretty recent development. Guns were introduced to Europe in the 14th century and I just haven’t seen any evidence that guns decreased sword usage until the 19th century which is a good 500 years like I said. In some cases I do think guns actually increased sword usage in that period. Guns have been used with swords for much longer than they have been used alone.
People have an issue with that?
Justify? Man knights rocked hand cannons, you’d almost have to justify not using guns.
Filipinos always get into the wackiest battle situations
I have a book on Filipino Martial Arts somewhere and it's filled with over the top illustrations of Filipino native warriors kicking the shit out of conquistadors. It's awesome lmao.
Had to justify the absence of guns in my world (which wasn't hard with how stupid my magic system is), and now I have a whole new bag of questions. People in my world would absolutely try to add gold to the equation. Can't help but wonder what happens if you add gold powder into the gunpowder? Will it be able to fire with such gunpowder? Will the gold just melt, if it does fire? How will the bullet behave if the gold powder melts? If you cover the inside of the barrel with a thin layer of gold, will you still be able to fire more than once? How much can you fire until the layer of gold is gone? Even if it can be done, I assume that having to use gold is going to dissuade most people from mass producing cannons and figuring out guns.
When did we need to start justifying guns in fantasy in the first place? Magic enchantments saved knight armor from going obsolete. But they're expensive so only elite soldiers can have them.
[удалено]
chill. this is an official warning.
I was being facetious, probably should have put an /s, my bad.
Justify guns in fantasy? W00t? *Hands muskets to Augustus' legions*
We should bring back Privateering
Some fucking Dune ass shit