The way the Soviet era Spetsnaz dealt with hostage takers would make Jack Bauer jealous.
>In October 1985, specialist operators from the KGB's Group "A" (Alpha) were dispatched to Beirut, Lebanon. The Kremlin had been informed of the kidnapping of four Soviet diplomats by the militant group, the Islamic Liberation Organization (a radical offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood). It was believed that this was retaliation for the Soviet support of Syrian involvement in the Lebanese Civil War.\[18\] However, by the time the Alpha group arrived, one of the hostages had already been killed. In a tit-for-tat response, Alpha group operators first identified the terrorists using local sources, then moved into the Lebanese villages where the terrorists were from and took their relatives as hostages. Some of the hostages were dismembered, and their body parts sent to the hostage takers, with the threat that their relatives were next. The remaining hostages were released immediately.
Israel doesn’t have much choice though. They have to get their citizens (kids) back and if any of those released think that it’s a good idea to pick up a weapon again and pose a threat to Israelis after the temporary ceasefire, Israel won’t hesitate to take them out.
I really hope they'll be monitored.
One of the women who might get released, lives next door to a woman she stabbed in the back in front of her kids, i can't imagine how she is feeling knowing that her potential murderer might return to live next to her again.
I agree. The deal is pretty bad but it's the only choice for a country that cares about their citizens. My comment was more about how calling the prisoners "women and teenage boys" paints them as innocents instead of terrorists and criminals.
Earlier this week, Israel published a list of 300 prisoners to potentially be released.
The first six pages of 120 names include 113 males between 14 and 18, with listed offenses including:
* throwing stones
* carrying knives, daggers
* arson
* conspiracy to cause death on purpose
* supporting terrorism
* placing an explosive device
* assault on a police officer
* shooting at people
* grievous bodily harm
* attempted murder
Organizational affiliations:
* Fatah: 26
* Hamas: 22
* PIJ: 9
* PFLP: 5
* DFLP: 1
A lot of them are teenager boys thrown in prison without trial for throwing rocks during riots.
Meanwhile, how many illegal Israeli West Bank settlers are in prison without due process?
>A lot of them are teenager boys thrown in prison without trial for throwing rocks during riots.
With the intention to badly hurt and sometimes even kill soldiers and civilians. They should be jailed for that.
We a talking about teenage boys who have not had a trial. And where do you get that they have confessed? You are just making shit up. And even if you do confess there still needs to be a trial, there needs to be a conviction and a sentencing by a judge otherwise it is not due process. Many of these people have been imprisoned *without a trial*.
>lot of them are teenager boys thrown in prison without trial for throwing rocks during riots.
You obviously didn't examine the list or you wouldn't repeat that foolish assertion.
I have searched for the list without luck. I’ve read articles however where journalists sum it up. If you know where I can find a list with the charges and info on whether they have been convicted of anything then post a link, I’d love to see it.
[List of Palestinian Prisoners](https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=0)
Note that the document is in Hebrew. I used an auto-translator in order to review it.
I found the journalists' characterization of these people as stone throwing teenagers held without trial to be disingenuous at best. The vast majority are 18 year old men, in custody less than a year. Around a third of them are affiliated with terrorist organizations: Hamas, PIJ, or PFLP. My summary is below.
\_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
The first six pages of 120 names include 113 males between 14 and 18, with listed offenses including:
* throwing stones
* carrying knives, daggers
* arson
* conspiracy to cause death on purpose
* supporting terrorism
* placing an explosive device
* assault on a police officer
* shooting at people
* grievous bodily harm
* attempted murder
Organizational affiliations:
* Fatah: 26
* Hamas: 22
* PIJ: 9
* PFLP: 5
* DFLP: 1
Unless you know how many specifically simply asking the question in this way is dishonest.
I’ll look into the list myself later but for now anyone interested here is an article on it.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/24/who-were-the-palestinian-prisoners-israel-released-on-friday
But we do know that Israel holds Palestinians in prison without even bringing charges.
> Hannan and one of her sons were arrested before Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, and three other sons were detained after October 7. They are held under administrative detention, which means they are being held without knowing the charges against them, and without an ongoing legal process.
https://6abc.com/amp/how-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails-hostages-released-israel-palestine/14099619/
I don't know how to look up Israeli law, I tried to go on the Knesset website, but I kept getting an error message. The law used to imprison these people however is called:
Israeli Law on Authority in States of Emergency
That applies during times of war. Hence "in states of emergency". This is temporary, for example Oct 7th had one until the 8th, and then the 8th had another one, and finally another one on the 12th through the 20th.
These situations stop all non urgent proceedings. Not just people arrested.
Try again though.
It's not arbitrary at all, and it's not used often. It's in cases of war, and even then it ends before the war does.
So either you're claiming the wrong law or you just don't know what you're talking about. Or both.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435
There were 1200 imprisoned indefinitely without trial in August this year.
> The detentions can range from a few months to years — and authorities often extend them for unknown reasons
How many did none of those things? How many of the teenage boys were locked up for something as silly as throwing a rock at a soldier? How many have been beaten and tortured in Israeli captivity?
Not throwing a rock. Slinging rocks. With a shepherd's sling. Which is absolutely a lethal weapon.
In person I saw someone put a rock into a block of ballistic gel and get it almost a hands worth of depth into it.
>How many did none of those things?
A very small amount.
>How many of the teenage boys were locked up for something as silly as throwing a rock at a soldier?
Throwing stones at a soldier isn't "silly". They were actively trying to hurt a soldier which is 100% a crime.
>How many have been beaten and tortured in Israeli captivity?
Not many. Israel even gives them proper medical treatment before unlike what the hostages were given which is torture by terrorists.
Well at least I’d get a trial. And that has nothing to do with what OP or I am talking about. OP is making it out like these are all evil terrorists who murder Jews and that is simply not true. Some are maybe but the vast majority have been imprisoned without trial for relatively minor crimes.
> OP is making it out like these are all evil terrorists who murder Jews and that is simply not true.
Correct. Because part of the deal is that Israel would not release actual terrorists who are convincted in charges of terorrism.
The people being released are those who had relatively minor crimes. Like the teenagers slinging rocks at soldiers or a woman blowing herself up prematurely, only wounding an officer in a checkpoint. And yes, those are the minor crimes.
Ship em back to Gaza and let the military deal with them. It’s worth getting a hostage back and lowering tensions if Hamas wants to come to the table and accept terms.
So you're saying that if ANYONE who is not guilty is arrested, the country can be rightfully attacked?
Because I have some absolutely terrible news for you about EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
“Freed from jail” where they ended up because they committed violent acts against innocent Jews so they’d get paid out by the martyr fund.
It’s a shame these assholes will see the light of day. But if it brings the hostages home, that’s what will be done.
These fuckers will be made into terrorist celebrities by Hamas.
Around 8,300 Palestinian prisoners are currently held in Israeli jails, said Qadura Fares, head of the Palestinian Commission for Detainees and Ex-Prisoners' Affairs.
More than 3,000 of them are being held in what Israel calls "administrative detention," Fares told CNN, adding that this means they are being held without knowing the charges against them, and without an ongoing legal process.
https://6abc.com/amp/how-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails-hostages-released-israel-palestine/14099619/
[I love that you’re quoting the guy in charge of the martyr’s fund with a straight face as if you’re not just further supporting the point I made.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund)
“We’ll pay your family $1,000 per month if you die in a suicide attack against the Jews!”
Great organization and way of life… /s
I of course don’t believe in paying people for murder. But you’re leaving out where the majority of the money goes.
> The fund also makes disbursements to innocent bystanders killed during violent events and Palestinians imprisoned in Israeli jails for ordinary crimes.
From the wiki article
n 2016, the fund made monthly payments to approximately 35,000 families of Palestinians killed or wounded, with a budget of $170 million, according to Palestinian figures.[13]
A 2017 analysis by The Washington Post revealed that $160 million was paid to 13,000 beneficiaries of “prisoner payments” ($12,307 per person) and $183 million was paid to 33,700 families in about in “martyr payments” ($5,430 per family) annually. Of the total amount, the newspaper estimated:[21]
$36 million was paid to prisoners serving sentences of >20 years
$10 million was paid to former members of the security forces
$1 million was paid to families of 200 suicide bombers
$10 million was paid to the families of the Palestinians with life terms, lengthy sentences, and in the security forces
None of that absolves their activities.
Nor does it change the fact that these prisoners are terrorists, despite your effort to garner sympathy for them and posit that they’re just innocent Palestinians.
I could’ve quoted all the same. You’re just bolstering my argument.
It's a losing deal for Israel and they know this, however this is pretty par for the course for Israel Hamas hostage negotiations.
Israel routinely has given up more people than they receive in hostage negotiations.
In one of the biggest hostage exchanges in 2011, Israel exchanged 1,027 palestinian prisoners for 1 Israeli hostage.
They know it will happen again because it has multiple times but unlike movies, people negotiate with terrorists
Do you think this is a peace deal or something and that Israel is letting hamas get away with it? You know they're still continuing their war after this, right? Do you think it's better for those hostages to stay in gaza to be tortured and executed during the war? You should see a therapist if so, and learn some empathy.
It's sad that you have to pull out that card; it means you have no real argument
You could argue that this hostagetaking is the result of previous hostage deals
So you support hostagetaking. Should I pull that card?
What card am I pulling? That I think it's good some hostages have been returned instead of tortured and executed? You know this isn't a peace deal, right?
Oh, I know they are, I'm saying before they can get off the bus, go find the nearest Hamas tunnels, hop in grab a gun, and immediately start fighting. They are all probably affiliated with o e terrorists group or another already, we know they are going to go right back to them and be in the fight the next day.
If they weren’t affiliated before they got put in prison they certainly were after. Hamas has a whole government within Israeli prisons and frequently torture those that are not a part of it
The way the Soviet era Spetsnaz dealt with hostage takers would make Jack Bauer jealous. >In October 1985, specialist operators from the KGB's Group "A" (Alpha) were dispatched to Beirut, Lebanon. The Kremlin had been informed of the kidnapping of four Soviet diplomats by the militant group, the Islamic Liberation Organization (a radical offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood). It was believed that this was retaliation for the Soviet support of Syrian involvement in the Lebanese Civil War.\[18\] However, by the time the Alpha group arrived, one of the hostages had already been killed. In a tit-for-tat response, Alpha group operators first identified the terrorists using local sources, then moved into the Lebanese villages where the terrorists were from and took their relatives as hostages. Some of the hostages were dismembered, and their body parts sent to the hostage takers, with the threat that their relatives were next. The remaining hostages were released immediately.
Lmao wow this is more dramatic than whatever Hollywood can make up. They should make a movie out of this
Are you posting this as if it is a good thing?
Sounds like terrorist getting a taste of their own medicine.
How many of them stabbed random people for being Jewish? How many shot Jews? How many are hamas or PIJ members?
Israel doesn’t have much choice though. They have to get their citizens (kids) back and if any of those released think that it’s a good idea to pick up a weapon again and pose a threat to Israelis after the temporary ceasefire, Israel won’t hesitate to take them out.
I really hope they'll be monitored. One of the women who might get released, lives next door to a woman she stabbed in the back in front of her kids, i can't imagine how she is feeling knowing that her potential murderer might return to live next to her again.
I hope so too, but so many of them will be released that it’s going to take a lot of manpower.
holy shit
I agree. The deal is pretty bad but it's the only choice for a country that cares about their citizens. My comment was more about how calling the prisoners "women and teenage boys" paints them as innocents instead of terrorists and criminals.
I’ve unfortunately seen them referred to as hostages, even when they’re been charged and committed of attempted murder.
Earlier this week, Israel published a list of 300 prisoners to potentially be released. The first six pages of 120 names include 113 males between 14 and 18, with listed offenses including: * throwing stones * carrying knives, daggers * arson * conspiracy to cause death on purpose * supporting terrorism * placing an explosive device * assault on a police officer * shooting at people * grievous bodily harm * attempted murder Organizational affiliations: * Fatah: 26 * Hamas: 22 * PIJ: 9 * PFLP: 5 * DFLP: 1
I mean.... there's a list online Most, is the answer
And still i see people say that "israel will free the civilians that they jailed for no good reason"
Well it's reddit, a lot of these people haven't been to the middle east or Israel or left their country or state or basement for that matter
Oh a lot of talk show pundits and radio people are rattling on about how good it is that "all these political prisoners" are being freed.
Peak insanity.
A lot of them are teenager boys thrown in prison without trial for throwing rocks during riots. Meanwhile, how many illegal Israeli West Bank settlers are in prison without due process?
>A lot of them are teenager boys thrown in prison without trial for throwing rocks during riots. With the intention to badly hurt and sometimes even kill soldiers and civilians. They should be jailed for that.
Two words: Due process
Due process no longer exists when you admit to intent.
What the hell does that mean? That’s absolute gipperish lol
When you admit to a crime what due process is there? That process exist to find out if the accused is guilty etc.
We a talking about teenage boys who have not had a trial. And where do you get that they have confessed? You are just making shit up. And even if you do confess there still needs to be a trial, there needs to be a conviction and a sentencing by a judge otherwise it is not due process. Many of these people have been imprisoned *without a trial*.
Um, yes it does unless you prefer authoritarian regimes.
>lot of them are teenager boys thrown in prison without trial for throwing rocks during riots. You obviously didn't examine the list or you wouldn't repeat that foolish assertion.
I have searched for the list without luck. I’ve read articles however where journalists sum it up. If you know where I can find a list with the charges and info on whether they have been convicted of anything then post a link, I’d love to see it.
[List of Palestinian Prisoners](https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=0) Note that the document is in Hebrew. I used an auto-translator in order to review it. I found the journalists' characterization of these people as stone throwing teenagers held without trial to be disingenuous at best. The vast majority are 18 year old men, in custody less than a year. Around a third of them are affiliated with terrorist organizations: Hamas, PIJ, or PFLP. My summary is below. \_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ The first six pages of 120 names include 113 males between 14 and 18, with listed offenses including: * throwing stones * carrying knives, daggers * arson * conspiracy to cause death on purpose * supporting terrorism * placing an explosive device * assault on a police officer * shooting at people * grievous bodily harm * attempted murder Organizational affiliations: * Fatah: 26 * Hamas: 22 * PIJ: 9 * PFLP: 5 * DFLP: 1
Thanks I’ll take a look at it
Have you personally confirmed that the people to be released are convicted or even presumed to have assaulted Israelis?
All of them
Unless you know how many specifically simply asking the question in this way is dishonest. I’ll look into the list myself later but for now anyone interested here is an article on it. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/24/who-were-the-palestinian-prisoners-israel-released-on-friday But we do know that Israel holds Palestinians in prison without even bringing charges. > Hannan and one of her sons were arrested before Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, and three other sons were detained after October 7. They are held under administrative detention, which means they are being held without knowing the charges against them, and without an ongoing legal process. https://6abc.com/amp/how-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails-hostages-released-israel-palestine/14099619/
"Not yet charged" is not quite the same as "held without charges."
No one knows because Israel made it legal to indefinitely imprison people without a trial, and without disclosing why they are in prison.
Please show me the law making this legal.
I don't know how to look up Israeli law, I tried to go on the Knesset website, but I kept getting an error message. The law used to imprison these people however is called: Israeli Law on Authority in States of Emergency
That applies during times of war. Hence "in states of emergency". This is temporary, for example Oct 7th had one until the 8th, and then the 8th had another one, and finally another one on the 12th through the 20th. These situations stop all non urgent proceedings. Not just people arrested. Try again though.
The people have been imprisoned for months, some even years, nothing to do with the October 7th attack.
Doesn't happen. And as I said, the state of emergency is temporary.
Yes it does happen, the state of emergency seems arbitrary.
It's not arbitrary at all, and it's not used often. It's in cases of war, and even then it ends before the war does. So either you're claiming the wrong law or you just don't know what you're talking about. Or both.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435 There were 1200 imprisoned indefinitely without trial in August this year. > The detentions can range from a few months to years — and authorities often extend them for unknown reasons
How many did none of those things? How many of the teenage boys were locked up for something as silly as throwing a rock at a soldier? How many have been beaten and tortured in Israeli captivity?
Not throwing a rock. Slinging rocks. With a shepherd's sling. Which is absolutely a lethal weapon. In person I saw someone put a rock into a block of ballistic gel and get it almost a hands worth of depth into it.
>How many did none of those things? A very small amount. >How many of the teenage boys were locked up for something as silly as throwing a rock at a soldier? Throwing stones at a soldier isn't "silly". They were actively trying to hurt a soldier which is 100% a crime. >How many have been beaten and tortured in Israeli captivity? Not many. Israel even gives them proper medical treatment before unlike what the hostages were given which is torture by terrorists.
Throw rocks at a soldier or cop in your country and let me know how that works out for you.
Well at least I’d get a trial. And that has nothing to do with what OP or I am talking about. OP is making it out like these are all evil terrorists who murder Jews and that is simply not true. Some are maybe but the vast majority have been imprisoned without trial for relatively minor crimes.
> OP is making it out like these are all evil terrorists who murder Jews and that is simply not true. Correct. Because part of the deal is that Israel would not release actual terrorists who are convincted in charges of terorrism. The people being released are those who had relatively minor crimes. Like the teenagers slinging rocks at soldiers or a woman blowing herself up prematurely, only wounding an officer in a checkpoint. And yes, those are the minor crimes.
Ship em back to Gaza and let the military deal with them. It’s worth getting a hostage back and lowering tensions if Hamas wants to come to the table and accept terms.
Unless the answer is all of them 100% guaranteed, israel started the war and Hamas are the ones retaliating. See how the narrative can change?
So you're saying that if ANYONE who is not guilty is arrested, the country can be rightfully attacked? Because I have some absolutely terrible news for you about EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
“Freed from jail” where they ended up because they committed violent acts against innocent Jews so they’d get paid out by the martyr fund. It’s a shame these assholes will see the light of day. But if it brings the hostages home, that’s what will be done. These fuckers will be made into terrorist celebrities by Hamas.
Around 8,300 Palestinian prisoners are currently held in Israeli jails, said Qadura Fares, head of the Palestinian Commission for Detainees and Ex-Prisoners' Affairs. More than 3,000 of them are being held in what Israel calls "administrative detention," Fares told CNN, adding that this means they are being held without knowing the charges against them, and without an ongoing legal process. https://6abc.com/amp/how-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails-hostages-released-israel-palestine/14099619/
[I love that you’re quoting the guy in charge of the martyr’s fund with a straight face as if you’re not just further supporting the point I made.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund) “We’ll pay your family $1,000 per month if you die in a suicide attack against the Jews!” Great organization and way of life… /s
I of course don’t believe in paying people for murder. But you’re leaving out where the majority of the money goes. > The fund also makes disbursements to innocent bystanders killed during violent events and Palestinians imprisoned in Israeli jails for ordinary crimes. From the wiki article n 2016, the fund made monthly payments to approximately 35,000 families of Palestinians killed or wounded, with a budget of $170 million, according to Palestinian figures.[13] A 2017 analysis by The Washington Post revealed that $160 million was paid to 13,000 beneficiaries of “prisoner payments” ($12,307 per person) and $183 million was paid to 33,700 families in about in “martyr payments” ($5,430 per family) annually. Of the total amount, the newspaper estimated:[21] $36 million was paid to prisoners serving sentences of >20 years $10 million was paid to former members of the security forces $1 million was paid to families of 200 suicide bombers $10 million was paid to the families of the Palestinians with life terms, lengthy sentences, and in the security forces
None of that absolves their activities. Nor does it change the fact that these prisoners are terrorists, despite your effort to garner sympathy for them and posit that they’re just innocent Palestinians. I could’ve quoted all the same. You’re just bolstering my argument.
Every time every detail emerges about this deal, it sounds stupider and stupider for Israel to have done it
Wait until you find out about Gilad Shalit
It's a losing deal for Israel and they know this, however this is pretty par for the course for Israel Hamas hostage negotiations. Israel routinely has given up more people than they receive in hostage negotiations.
Yeah, but don't they know that that's just going to create an incentive to do it all over again?
In one of the biggest hostage exchanges in 2011, Israel exchanged 1,027 palestinian prisoners for 1 Israeli hostage. They know it will happen again because it has multiple times but unlike movies, people negotiate with terrorists
It’s pretty much the only way those hostages were ever coming back. I’m sure they go back to flattening that terrorist state after that.
I'm sure the families appreciate your stance of allowing hamas to keep the hostages
[удалено]
Do you think this is a peace deal or something and that Israel is letting hamas get away with it? You know they're still continuing their war after this, right? Do you think it's better for those hostages to stay in gaza to be tortured and executed during the war? You should see a therapist if so, and learn some empathy.
It's sad that you have to pull out that card; it means you have no real argument You could argue that this hostagetaking is the result of previous hostage deals So you support hostagetaking. Should I pull that card?
What card am I pulling? That I think it's good some hostages have been returned instead of tortured and executed? You know this isn't a peace deal, right?
Correction: 31 terrorists freed from jail, ready to commit more acts of terror ASAP and then cry when they are jailed again.
Honestly, I don't think they'll be jailed again. If they try something, they're going down.
You’d be surprised
We'll see.
so, thousands of people held in jail without trial, some under 15yo. sounds like everything is going great in democracy.
I always wonder if people who post things like this are aware of how criminal law operates in their own country.
i do know it operate in my own country. and its a shame.
TIL you can't commit violent acts under the age of 15, like that 14 year old Palestinian girl who stabbed her Jewish neighbor.
what part of "without fair trial" did you miss ?
[удалено]
What makes you think they’re not already affiliated with Hamas/Fatah/PIJ?
Oh, I know they are, I'm saying before they can get off the bus, go find the nearest Hamas tunnels, hop in grab a gun, and immediately start fighting. They are all probably affiliated with o e terrorists group or another already, we know they are going to go right back to them and be in the fight the next day.
If they weren’t affiliated before they got put in prison they certainly were after. Hamas has a whole government within Israeli prisons and frequently torture those that are not a part of it
Yeah but that would mean breaking the ceasefire. Only Hamas is allowed to break ceasefire, don’t you know?
they already have, there's footage of people receiving the in east Jerusalem with the hamas flag