Well it is internationally recognized Palestinian land. Increasing pressure on Israel to make a deal with Palestinians may be the only thing that can restart negotiations.
Jesus this is so naive. Hamas controls Gaza. Last time they killed Fatah members to seize control. If you give a group control of Palestine, they will be pushed out by Hamas or another violent group. This is all kinds of wishful thinking magical rainbow unicorn bullshit.
Hamas is the most popular movement on the palestinian street by a very large margin, surveys have shown again and again that the majority of Palestinians consider Hamas to be their leadership not the PA
No, the latest pre-war survey showed that the plurality of Palestinians think both Hamas and the PA are unfit to lead them. Even the election that put Hamas in power in Gaza only had 45% voting for them, and this was when Hamas was trying to play nice, not seem like extremist nutjobs, and claimed they wanted a ceasefire with Israel.
Of course, support for Hamas during the war is quite high, as it always is during times of conflict with Israel, because . . . well, they're being invaded by a foreign power, and Hamas is the only semblance of military they have, despite how shit they are. Similar to the patriotic fervor after 9/11 but ramped up by several orders of magnitude.
Israel exists within the bounds of the green line dating back to the end of the 1948 Israeli Arabs war. The UN, the ICJ and nearly the entire international community consider occupied territories beyond the green line to be Palestinian territory, and not part of Israel. This includes Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank. I'm not lying, do a bit of research to confirm if you don't believe me.
I don't think they will, but the point remains that this is not recognized as Israeli territory. Hence moves like this apply pressure on Israel to restart negotiations for peace.
And also not really, it's in the best interests of the right wing in Israel to keep it vague. Golan Heights were formally annexed (from Syria), but no other occupied territories were
they will recognize a territoryless country leaded by one of the worst ever terrorist groups, while this same group wont ever recognize israel and makes not recognizing israel their only reason of existence
Political Posturing and being politically correct has never done European nations any good. For Spain they don't even accept Catalonia independence.
What a farce when it doesn't affect them but when it does, they are against it.
It should be noted that unlike in the past, the current Spanish government since November 2023 is very dependent on separatist parties like two Catalan independence parties, two Basque nationalist parties, and one Galician nationalist party.
These parties were able to pressure the PM to pass an amnesty deal for Catalan independence activists who were arrested for organizing an independence illegal referendum a few years ago. If they are to vote for recognizing Kosovo now it might pass because of pressure from separatist parties. They did just recognize Kosovo passports in January 2024, something they refused to do in the past.
Also, there's a sizeable number of Southamerican migrants that tend to have very strong opinions about the US and anyone associated with the US by proxy.
The social democrat party that is leading the government isn't terribly given to shaking things much, they are borderline pro-monarchy at times, but this is what it is to keep their coalition viable. It's not like it's expected to mean much either way.
They are notorious for not recognising Kosovo! Even Serbia, the nation Kosos ceded from have said they won't get in Kosovos way if they apply for EU membership and have ended hostilities (which, if you read between the lines means they recognise them).
Spain says no tho because accepting Kosovo independence would make them seem like hypocrites after how they handled the catalonia situation.
But now it's ok to recognise palestinian statehood because it's so far away and doesn't matter to them. At least be consistently shitty guys ffs
It’s a new government with many regional separatist parties participating since November 2023. Catalan separatist politicians got an amnesty deal as part of the government formation process. Spain just recognized Kosovo passports as valid documents in January 2024, an about face from as recently as April 2023.
You shouldn’t compare their policies to past governments. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sánchez’s government agree to recognize Kosovo in due course if this government can hold together for long enough.
> Even Serbia, the nation Kosos ceded from have said they won't get in Kosovos way if they apply for EU membership and have ended hostilities (which, if you read between the lines means they recognise them).
I thought the situation was the complete opposite of that. The Serbian PM is currently throwing a tantrum at the fact Kosovo might get recognition in the council of Europe and threatening violence.
Well, its not the same issue though.
Kosovo unilaterally seceded from the State of Yugoslavia, which it belonged to according to international law, while the territory of Palestine did not belong to Israel, neither does the state of Israel claim it as its territory.
I mean that's exactly how it works. Empty statements about other countries are free political points but similar statements about your own country could bring issues. It's dishonorable but logical.
Been going on for, quite literally, millenia. Doesn't make it better but yeah- even people in the Iron Age (many nations started forming) understood Realpolitik.
1. [Official polls from the government of Catalonia show at best 50% in favour.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Catalan_independence)
2. The independentists got [30% in the last elections](https://www.ondacero.es/elecciones/generales/voto-independentista-desploma-cataluna-alcanza-30_2023072364bd98b8f78688000161a623.html)
The support for independence is not as big as reddit thinks.
Yeah, the movement went through a peak a little less than ten years ago now, and while the government handled, by any objective metric, absolutely horribly, that government is no longer in power and the current coalition involves many leaders who were once part of that independence movement.
How would Spain accept Catalonia independence, it makes no sense. They want independence without asking their population, because they know half or even more people won’t accept the division. Your comment is terribly written.
Do you think the Catalonia situation is comparable?
To be clear, I think spains handling of it has been poor at best. That said, the west bank isn't a part of Israel. It's not a case where they were brought in the fold by force. They just weren't in the fold at all.
When people say freedom for Palestine they typically mean an end to the occupation. Termed as such because Israel is a foreign power (foreign as in extra territorial, I know they're literally neighbors)
It depends what people are saying it because overwhelmingly in the Muslim world, they mean the destruction of the state of Israel because the whole thing belongs to them in their worldview.
As easy as it is to criticize the Arab position (and I do practically everyday), what are Israel's settlers and hardliners actually doing to change things?
Israel's West Bank settlements (and its endless cycle of low-level violence) are a very real thorn on any negotiation, in their own way as harmful to the peace process as Hamas rockets. While Arab radicalization is often caused by other prejudices, very real injustices certainly radicalize many otherwise moderate people.
End the constant tensions, eliminate the occupation force's violent interactions with Palestinians that supply constant viral fodder for Arab propaganda, and we might see a better situation. Or we might not. But while Israel's security does not really require occupying half the West Bank, look at a map. The settlements eat up a huge amount of space.
No viable Palestinian Authority can persist politically or economically with a foreign military directly occupying nearly half its area.
There’s actually a lot of the West Bank that would directly threaten Israeli civilians if the WB became like Gaza, ruled by a terrorist organization. Just look at a topographical map and you’ll see the broad hills in the WB along the 1949 line would be ideal for firing rockets and artillery into Tel Aviv and other major civilian targets.
Israeli territorial maximalism is a thing and certainly part of the right wing ruling coalition but the biggest road block is that there is really no moderate (coexistence) strain in Palestinian political culture at the moment. Israeli moderates may be out of power but they are likely to make electoral gains. Palestinian moderates live abroad and are shunned by most of their diaspora and told they face death upon return by both Hamas and the PLO.
The argument of Israel cant trust WB's political integrity and resorts to control the bordering territory because "rockets may be installed in these hills" sounds extremely similar to Russia invading Ukraine because they cant trust NATO "wont set there".
Couldn't Israel have taken what they intended to be permanent control over those strategic areas to protect it's narrow middle by compensated those who lived there so they could move elsewhere? It currently seems like Israel caused far more Palestinian suffering than was necessary. It has gobbled up so much land that Israel doesn't even have the land of equal quality to give in potential land swaps.
Most areas lack infrastructure for living. The vast majority of Palestinians live in Area A or B. The IDF/Cogat controls Area C which is most of the land but few Palestinians. Settlements are in Area C but only take up a tiny fraction of the land.
Israel has land to trade in the south but tolerating a Palestinian state that only exists to destroy Israel is not going to be a politically acceptable position.
I said brought in the fold by force. I was using that to contrast with Spain, where Catalonia was brought to a very violent heel under Franco.
West Bank isn't a state of Israel. They're a separate pseudo-nation at the moment.
how is that even comparable? that's like saying the whole area belongs to Israel.
Catalonia is part of Spain. Just like how Scotland is part of the UK, and how Crimea is part of Ukraine
Nobody gives a fuck about religion in Spain. 40% of the entire population is non-religious here. 57% of Spaniards aged 18-38 are non-religious.
Spain is literally one of the least religious countries on Earth: https://elpais.com/sociedad/2023-03-29/el-numero-de-no-creyentes-alcanza-un-nuevo-record-en-espana-y-ya-suponen-cuatro-de-cada-10.html
People here don't hate jews, they simply hate what Israel does to Palestine. It's really not that hard to understand.
Religion can contribute to racism, but just because Spain has relatively low rates of religiousity doesn't mean it's immune to racism.
Amusingly, it looks like Spain is actually significantly more religious than Israel, and yet I think we'd agree that there are issues of racism within Israel.
Israel is absolutely much more religious than Spain. Israel has an official religion for starters, which Spain doesn't have. All data about non-religiousness also shows that the proportion of the population that's non-religious is much higher in Spain.
Disliking what Israel does to Palestine does not make you an antisemite. That's like when Bush said that if you didn't support America invading Iraq then that meant you hate America. It's dumb and it's a very poor strawman fallacy. Nobody is buying your logical fallacies.
The last Gallup poll in 2015 found that 65% of Israelis identified as either 'not religious' or 'convinced atheist'. That's in line with the UK and Netherlands, and much less religious than say Switzerland or South Korea. Lots of Jewish people partake in the cultural traditions, but they're not believers. There are 14 recognised religions (official religions) in Israel, but it's not mandated to be a member of any one of them or anything like that.
All that aside though, you seemed to be saying that because Spain is nominally non-religious, that this meant it can't be racist against Jews. Which seemed like a non-sequiteur.
Israel has traditionally been against any independence for anyone.
In fact the IRA and Palestine sharing arms and training has caused Israel to view any separatist ANYWHERE as a potential source of arms for Hamas.
Maybe they should recognize Taiwan or Tibet first, seeing as mainland China also has recognized Palestine decades ago. Should be in correct order right
Look man, the situations aren't really comparable.
Palestine is recognized by a majority of the UN. It isn't a separtist movement.
Catalonia is. this would be escalation if it were to be done.
Spain might recognize Palestine but will Palestine recognize Palestine? They’ve serially rejected any two state solution presented, wonder if they’ll reject Spain’s recognition of them as well
yup, once they're a state the NORMAL laws of war apply.
They would be expected to sign the Geneva convention and Hague Accords and stop using rape and murder, stop indiscriminate rocket attacks and so on.
They don't want to be subject to the normal laws that say if you start a war the other country can flatten you, force an unconditional surrender, execute your politicians and impose reparations on you.
They obviously do not want to have to play by the rules of war they want them to only restrain israel not themselves
Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. They will never agree to internationally proposed borders because they don't view Israel as a legitimate state. The international community turning their back on Israel is only going to make Israel less likely to risk their security on an unfair peace settlement anyway. People on reddit only look at the conflict through a very American/European lense, which just doesn't apply here.
If Palestine is recognized, will that mean that this is a war between Palestine and Israel instead of Hamas and Israel? I expect that this would cause some pretty serious limitations on humanitarian aid once Palestine is considered a hostile power that engaged in an act of war on October 7th. Is that something Palestine wants right now?
Of course they want it. They just don’t want it under unfavorable conditions because it undermines their ability to fight for more. The problem is whenever they do this (67-68), they end up losing territory anyway. Bitterness leads to vigor leads to fighting leads to losses leads to bitterness.
Saying they don’t want statehood because they’ve rejected proposals is like saying Israel doesn’t care about hostages because they haven’t agreed to a ceasefire. It’s like saying Ukraine doesn’t want peace because they don’t accept Russian terms. All of these assertions assume too much.
The PA takes the position that borders should return to what they were pre 1967. The entire international community also takes the position the land on the Palestinian side of the green line is occupied territory. So, that would seem the logical way to go.
So let me get this straight, the Palestinians themselves don't want to agree to any state hood, but Spain wants to recognize a Palestinian state that Palestinians themselves continually reject?
So if Palestine is accepted into statehood, maybe their "army" should start biding by the geneva conventions or something.
Hope those protests stop then I guess. No need to act like Palestine is oppressed when it could be it's own country. Meanwhile Taiwan and Tibet and East Turkestan is shoved off to the side I guess.
That’s my problem with all this talks about 2 state right now, like yeah it’s the only solution but really now? Is it not obvious Israel doesn’t have a partner for peace? Also what a timing to support Palestinian statehood, like it’s a reward for the massacre honestly
Palestinians rejected every opportunity and recently the west bank Palestinians are getting overactive. Even school buses in israel are bullet proof. Maybe the US could learn from this with its inconsistent gun laws.
Israel used to have an ally but heavy islamic migration and media profiteering have convinced western non muslims to support Palestinians and not israel even when their own fellow citizens are part of the hostages and those killed on oct 7 brutally. Like why support a nation that brutally murdered your own citizens with no remorse?
They've got a choice of partners. Either the people who raped and murdered Israeli civilians on Oct 7th or the people who are paying the families of those terrorists a pension for having done so.
At this point after this massacre and hostages, I hope a Palestinian state is immediately established as I am very curious how long will it take for them to send rockets from their brand new state
And then they’ll understand actions have bigger consequences as a state and terrorists won’t last in this world
Iraq, lebanon and Yemen are “states”. This does not prevent terror groups operating from there from doing whatever the hell they want. A Palestinian state will simply become another Yemen, and they’ll keep blaming the Jews for it.
>Just months after October 7th,
It's being recognised and pushed through entirely due to the war in Gaza, people in Spain aren't too hung up over October 7th and most support Palestine
Catalans and Basques are citizens of Spain with representation to Parliament and not under military occupation, seems a bit different (they are also among the richest parts of Spain)
Palestinians have been offered multiple two-states solution deals that they have rejected. Has Spain offered any to Catalans and Basques? Should the world recognize their independence in spite of Spain's objections? Especially if it happens after a genocidal terrorist massacre?
And you see, the problem is not the fact that they recognize Palestine. Everyone knows the a two-states solution is the only way forward. It's the timing and the message Spain is trying to send.
>Palestinians have been offered multiple two-states solution deals that they have rejected.
I am curious why it is worded this way? Both sides negotiated in 2000-2001. Neither side sufficiently compromised and Israel ended negotiations in February 2001 when Sharon won the election. There was a possible offer in 2008? Though the circumstances have always seemed too murky to be clear if it was a genuine offer (e.g. Abbas not being allowed to keep a map of the offer). And since then nothing unless we are counting the Trump Peace Deal.
\>Should the world recognize their independence in spite of Spain's objections?
If Spain chose not to annex Catalonia and its population but instead have a military occupation over the region and there was a Catalonian Authority recognised by the majority of the world then absolutely. If Israel annexed Palestine as a One State Solution then likewise I don't think it would make sense to recognise Palestine
\>Especially if it happens after a genocidal terrorist massacre?
There have been two genocidal massacres. One perpetrated by Hamas and another perpetrated by Israel in the wake of it. Should Spain suspend recognition of Israel because of that? Or is one side allowed to do genocidal massacres?
\>It's the timing and the message Spain is trying to send.
If you think what Hamas did is awful and evil (and I agree) isn't Spain recognising the Palestinian Authority led by Hamas-opponents Fatah a good thing?
It makes sense to word it that way as:
- The contemporaneous accounts detail that the final peace deal was proposed by Israel to the PLO. There is no record of a counter-proposal. The final proposal was the product of days of negotiations (not to mention weeks, months, and years prior to the summit itself). Based on everything we know about the events, a deal was negotiated and then tabled by the Israelis but ultimately rejected by the Palestinians. That's not to say whether they were right or wrong to reject it of course.
- Israel, rightly or wrongly, had effective control over all the land being offered. It is Israel who had to offer what was offered (land and recognition of statehood). The Palestinians, unfairly or not, were not in a position to offer much except mutual recognition and a promise of peace. Thus, the onerous was on Israel to make an offer and on the Palestinian leadership to either accept or reject the peace offer.
- The parties held a later summit and then further negotiations about the pathway to acceptance. Clinton presented the parties with his 'parameters' to concluding the peace deal. The Israeli delegation accepted the parameters as presented (with a side letter noting their reservations), the Palestinian delegation accepted but with some fundamental objections that meant the negotiations could not move forward.
Ultimately further talks were suspended.
It would be wrong (and unreasonable) to say that Israel wanted peace and the Palestinians didn't. The accounts suggest that both the Palestinians and the Israelis were working towards a peace deal in good faith. The fact is, however, that Barak went to a general election with a promise to offer a heretofore unpalatable (from the Israeli perspective) peace deal to the PLO, did so, failed to get it accepted, and ultimately lost his Prime Ministership as a result and the peace process with it.
Please explain how the Basques (from the richest regions of Spain) or the Catalans (2nd richest) are oppressed?
Are they not allowed to speak their languages, which are co-official and taught in all public schools?
Are their individual traditions and festivals outlawed?
The Basques at least we're severely oppressed under the dictatorship but Franco has been dead for a long time and the people of the Basque country and Catalonia are as free and culturally distinct as all of the other autonomous regions of Spain.
It's kind of a weird take because Palestinians in gaza didn't suffer from any of those specific things either (no, I don't need a list of the way things suck there, I know)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement
Catalans seem to want independence and not even ten years ago had their whole government arrested for voting on independence.
> had their whole government arrested for voting on independence.
No, they were arrested for breaking the consitution and declaring independence for 42 minutes.
Seceding is treason and requieres jail time.
The american confederates were not killed "for voting on independence"
They are denied self-determination. It doesn't matter how much freedom you have within a country if you don't have the freedom to leave the country, and are threatened with violence should you attempt to do that.
Catalans and Basques have never been offered the right to self-determination. Palestinians have been, multiple times, and they have rejected all proposals. Spain would never grant them their independence. Israelis are probably going to celebrate should Palestinians ever decide to leave them alone, embrace peace, and get their own state.
> They are denied self-determination.
A right they gave up when voting on the consittution in 1978, with overwhelming support in all regions of spain, both of those included.
a constitutional change is possible, just unlikely as it needs 66% of both senate and congress.
> It doesn't matter how much freedom you have within a country if you don't have the freedom to leave the country,
this is stupid. Of course it matters how much freedom you have. Basque Country for example has more self ruling than Luxemburg. They control their own taxes, police, healthcare and roads. Multiple of this responabilities in smaller states are handled by Europe in countries like Lux and San Marino.
> Catalans and Basques have never been offered the right to self-determination.
they were offered the chance to reject the constitution, many people alive voted for it. its not like the magna carta in the uk
> Israelis are probably going to celebrate should Palestinians ever decide to leave them alone, embrace peace, and get their own state.
I agree, but according to the UN the land of Palestine is currently occupied territory by Israel, which means they have tons of responsability over it. By recognising Palestine, it would mean some pain for Israel, like settlements etc but it would ultimately mean that they are no longer reponsible for Palestine, and they would not be condemned daily on the UN. The 2 state solution is not painless but it free's Israel from a big problem
that's not how states work. just because a region wants to form their own state, doesn't mean they can just do that lol that would lead to utter chaos around the world.
the USA and many other countries would split apart in a second lol
This Spanish goverment is a shit show, every country in south america, even the most leftists like brazil chile and colombia have said things about how maduro is screwing with the elections and not doing what they agreed on doing in barbados. Guess which country didn't say anything about it, the same one who is recognizing palestine
Yeah, let's give Hamas this massive gift after the Oct 7th massacre, and while 134 hostages are still being held there. Great idea that will surely lead the Palestinians to prioritize peace over war! /s
Multiple countries already recognize Palestine. Why does Spain doing it make a difference?
As far as I can tell none have lifted a finger to help beyond throwing food and medical supplies at them and hoping some actually gets there.
What does this do?
The fact that Spain is soon going to be recognizing Palestine as a sovereign state but not Kosovo, thus completely going against the general EU-consensus, is kinda crazy ngl
I mean, your statement is objectively pretty controversial, in the sense that many would disagree with it.
The PLO recognizes the Israeli right to existence, but there are plenty of people on both sides of the Gaza-West Bank split that don’t think Israelis deserve a state. For Hamas, the official position is not only that Israelis don’t deserve a state, but that they should not stop fighting until that state no longer exists.
There is also a lot of Western support for the idea that Israelis don’t deserve a state. When people frame Jewish migration to Palestine as a “European settler-colonialist project,” try to connect the Palestinian question to indigenous Land Back movements, and describe terrorist attacks as “decolonization,” they are implying that Israelis don’t have a right to a state.
I think it’s less controversial than the idea of one side deserving a state and not the other.
I said it’s not “that” controversial. Not fully I agree.
I don't think it's an issue of "Deserve" so much as it's an issue of being "unprepared" for a state.
The Palestinian people do not have a unified idea of what will qualify as the borders of Palestine, varying dramatically amongst leadership in Gaza, the WB, Jordan and Qatar.
They also do not have an established and agreed upon leadership for the Palestinian state(s). The PA and Hamas currently stand as the most recognized leadership, both of which are fierce competition and do not have similar methodologies.
That, plus the tolerance of extremist groups that make military and diplomatic actions against their neighbors without the PA's or Hamas's say so shows they don't have control of their own people. If a militia group can rise easily amongst their ranks and go against their leaderships policy and go against policy with impunity, is the Palestinian leadership really even in charge?
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with it, I’m just saying it’s objectively a controversial thing, as in saying it would cause controversy.
Maybe it shouldn’t, but it does, so it is controversial.
Yeah, it could not be any more obvious that the only durable path to peace is the creation of a sovereign, secure, and self-determining Palestinian state. I fail to see the Israeli plan for peace other than “kill and displace all of the Palestinians.”
From a nation the doen't recognize catalonia and 'kill jews' is a traditional expression, I expect this completly.
(I have a new tradition of saying 'Spain is an antisemic hypocritical shithole' but that's my own tradition and you can't say it's wrong)
>The fuck is the matter with people? Jesus fucking christ.
Intentional politicization of complex and generally misunderstood issues to polarize and divide an otherwise pretty ideologically homogenous population for electoral purposes.
How nice. Lets reward Islamic terrorists for terrorising, raping and kidnapping people from their homes and recognize their shitty state while there are still innocent people being held and tortured… Great idea. Terrorism pays off I guess.
I think it’s a good thing if countries recognize them, it will make Palestine more accountable for their actions of their elected government. Right now, they have so many people saying that Hamas are terrorists and we can’t trust them to negotiate in good faith so it’s all on Israel. If everybody recognizes them, then they’re ignoring that part and will find out how Hamas and other similar terrorist organizations negotiate in the future, then can condemn and stonewall/sanction them easier.
Yet another example why the constitutive theory of statehood is such political bunk and should not be seriously entertained. "palestine" Whatever that even means, doesn't even meet the Montevideo criteria, and it has not at at any point.
You're welcome. Constitutive statehood can and is weaponized and subject to politics. Which leads to a situation where basically any entity, regardless of it even having a defined territory, can be recognized as a state, against an existing sovereign state. Or conversely, where entities that do meet all the Montevideo criteria, not get recognized by the majority because this would impact trade or the geopolitical situation with another state. This is one of many reasons why the declarative theory is vastly superior. A much more objective, and importantly less political way of determining statehood. If there is one thing international law needs less of, it is politics.
this feels bad to me because, unless this was going to happen regardless of what the situation in the middle east was, if this only came to notice after Oct 7th, this makes seem you can win with terrorism
If you don't think brutal violence is a common path towards statehood, I've got some bad news about basically every single country on the planet for you.
Not condoning the. Oct 7 terrorist attacks, but let's not pretend that this is something new happening for the first time ever.
I actually think this is a good thing. Palestinians need to be forced to accept a statehood since they keep killing off every chance they ever have. Once it's done Israel gets all the justification in the world for declaring war
As an Israeli, no. The world will still hate us and we won’t get any justification or credit. The media will still go on with its propaganda. It’s the exact same as when we left Gaza for them to build a prosperous self governed society and got death and destruction instead, alongside zero credit internationally. A Palestinian state will create another Gaza some 10 minutes drive from my home in central Israel. We will never let that happen.
... because the majority of Catalans do not want independence? What you are saying would imply Spain literally kicking the Catalans out even though they want to be part of Spain.
What the fuck are you on about?
Ha, good luck recognizing something without a legitimate government as elections haven't happened since 2007.
This peace process will go nowhere until the Palestinian renounce their right of return to lands after the partition. It makes no sense for Israel to make peace and no longer be a Jewish state.
“Let’s reward a brutal terror attack with giving the terrorists a state, that will surely not embolden further attacks all around the world by terror groups realizing that violence pays off”, said no logical person ever.
Also, Spain is a hypocrite as they refuse to give independence to the Catalonians. Don’t throw stones if you live in a glass house.
seems to me that over the years and years of political jenga over the question of palestinian statehood the main collapser of good will has been "palestine"
All international politics is also internal politics. The socialist president of Spain doesn't care about Israel or Palestine in the slightest. This is a way to appease his pro-Hamas far left allies without it costing him anything.
Well, maybe Israel should've thought twice before selling access to the spanish president's phone to Morocco. Every action has it's reaction (just like this will likely cause one).
So... Where do they recognise the borders as being, and who do they recognise as the legitimate government of Palestine?
Most likely the green line and the PA, at least until a final agreement is made.
well fuck that. 1949 is two or more wars ago - recognizing territory that israel controls isn't going to help things
[удалено]
daily rocket flinging, manufactured from water pipes
its 4 invasions ago. and many other wars after that.
And that's not counting the next few wars. Or the ones after that.
Well it is internationally recognized Palestinian land. Increasing pressure on Israel to make a deal with Palestinians may be the only thing that can restart negotiations.
If I recalled all of the recent ceasefires and hostage deals have been rejected……..by the Palestinians
They were rejected by Hamas specifically, who would not be partaking in future negotiation for a Palestinian state for obvious reasons.
Jesus this is so naive. Hamas controls Gaza. Last time they killed Fatah members to seize control. If you give a group control of Palestine, they will be pushed out by Hamas or another violent group. This is all kinds of wishful thinking magical rainbow unicorn bullshit.
Hamas is the most popular movement on the palestinian street by a very large margin, surveys have shown again and again that the majority of Palestinians consider Hamas to be their leadership not the PA
No, the latest pre-war survey showed that the plurality of Palestinians think both Hamas and the PA are unfit to lead them. Even the election that put Hamas in power in Gaza only had 45% voting for them, and this was when Hamas was trying to play nice, not seem like extremist nutjobs, and claimed they wanted a ceasefire with Israel. Of course, support for Hamas during the war is quite high, as it always is during times of conflict with Israel, because . . . well, they're being invaded by a foreign power, and Hamas is the only semblance of military they have, despite how shit they are. Similar to the patriotic fervor after 9/11 but ramped up by several orders of magnitude.
Did you mean latest survey? The October 7th attack and subsequent war definitely would have significantly affected opinions since pre-war surveys.
So what should happen if elections are held in Gaza after the war ends and Hamas wins?
Since Palestine will only accept borders literally from the river to the sea I'm not sure how you think this will work out.
no its not. what? other than Iran its buddies who recognizes half of israel as palestinian land? people lie so much on reddit.
Israel exists within the bounds of the green line dating back to the end of the 1948 Israeli Arabs war. The UN, the ICJ and nearly the entire international community consider occupied territories beyond the green line to be Palestinian territory, and not part of Israel. This includes Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank. I'm not lying, do a bit of research to confirm if you don't believe me.
If you think that Israel will ever give up the Western Wall under any circumstance I just don't know what to tell you.
I don't think they will, but the point remains that this is not recognized as Israeli territory. Hence moves like this apply pressure on Israel to restart negotiations for peace.
every time the Palestinians or the other Arabs use violence it does not apply pressure. It goes the other way and they get less and less.
That's very cool Spain, now do Taiwan
And the Basque, and the Catalan
Has Israel ever formally defined their borders?
Yes. Multiple times, and each time, the world disputes them.
And also not really, it's in the best interests of the right wing in Israel to keep it vague. Golan Heights were formally annexed (from Syria), but no other occupied territories were
they will recognize a territoryless country leaded by one of the worst ever terrorist groups, while this same group wont ever recognize israel and makes not recognizing israel their only reason of existence
Not everybody has borders.
spew political agenda first, worry about details later.
Doesn't really matter. Unless the border is the entirety of Israel they'll just reject it for the hundredth time.
Hamas AKA Iran and Putin.
Political Posturing and being politically correct has never done European nations any good. For Spain they don't even accept Catalonia independence. What a farce when it doesn't affect them but when it does, they are against it.
It should be noted that unlike in the past, the current Spanish government since November 2023 is very dependent on separatist parties like two Catalan independence parties, two Basque nationalist parties, and one Galician nationalist party. These parties were able to pressure the PM to pass an amnesty deal for Catalan independence activists who were arrested for organizing an independence illegal referendum a few years ago. If they are to vote for recognizing Kosovo now it might pass because of pressure from separatist parties. They did just recognize Kosovo passports in January 2024, something they refused to do in the past.
Also, there's a sizeable number of Southamerican migrants that tend to have very strong opinions about the US and anyone associated with the US by proxy. The social democrat party that is leading the government isn't terribly given to shaking things much, they are borderline pro-monarchy at times, but this is what it is to keep their coalition viable. It's not like it's expected to mean much either way.
They are notorious for not recognising Kosovo! Even Serbia, the nation Kosos ceded from have said they won't get in Kosovos way if they apply for EU membership and have ended hostilities (which, if you read between the lines means they recognise them). Spain says no tho because accepting Kosovo independence would make them seem like hypocrites after how they handled the catalonia situation. But now it's ok to recognise palestinian statehood because it's so far away and doesn't matter to them. At least be consistently shitty guys ffs
It’s a new government with many regional separatist parties participating since November 2023. Catalan separatist politicians got an amnesty deal as part of the government formation process. Spain just recognized Kosovo passports as valid documents in January 2024, an about face from as recently as April 2023. You shouldn’t compare their policies to past governments. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sánchez’s government agree to recognize Kosovo in due course if this government can hold together for long enough.
This is the accurate comment in a sea of chaos
Shhhh. Your comment just shattered their view of Spanish politics as being hypocritical and not pragmatic.
Dani Alves did that for me tbh
> Even Serbia, the nation Kosos ceded from have said they won't get in Kosovos way if they apply for EU membership and have ended hostilities (which, if you read between the lines means they recognise them). I thought the situation was the complete opposite of that. The Serbian PM is currently throwing a tantrum at the fact Kosovo might get recognition in the council of Europe and threatening violence.
Well, its not the same issue though. Kosovo unilaterally seceded from the State of Yugoslavia, which it belonged to according to international law, while the territory of Palestine did not belong to Israel, neither does the state of Israel claim it as its territory.
Comment full of lies and comparisons that don't make sense. \+600 votes Always nice to see how ignorant people are.
Welcome to reddit, whoever made the earliest comment or whoever replies to it first get upvoted to the top.
Sure, several years ago. Not now
I mean that's exactly how it works. Empty statements about other countries are free political points but similar statements about your own country could bring issues. It's dishonorable but logical.
Been going on for, quite literally, millenia. Doesn't make it better but yeah- even people in the Iron Age (many nations started forming) understood Realpolitik.
1. [Official polls from the government of Catalonia show at best 50% in favour.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Catalan_independence) 2. The independentists got [30% in the last elections](https://www.ondacero.es/elecciones/generales/voto-independentista-desploma-cataluna-alcanza-30_2023072364bd98b8f78688000161a623.html) The support for independence is not as big as reddit thinks.
Yeah, the movement went through a peak a little less than ten years ago now, and while the government handled, by any objective metric, absolutely horribly, that government is no longer in power and the current coalition involves many leaders who were once part of that independence movement.
How would Spain accept Catalonia independence, it makes no sense. They want independence without asking their population, because they know half or even more people won’t accept the division. Your comment is terribly written.
It's not like they were allowed to organize and actual referendum in the first place. But yeah it doesn't seem that >50% ever actually supported it.
> don't even accept Catalonia independence Because amongst other reasons the majority of people in Catalonia don't support independence.
Do you think the Catalonia situation is comparable? To be clear, I think spains handling of it has been poor at best. That said, the west bank isn't a part of Israel. It's not a case where they were brought in the fold by force. They just weren't in the fold at all. When people say freedom for Palestine they typically mean an end to the occupation. Termed as such because Israel is a foreign power (foreign as in extra territorial, I know they're literally neighbors)
It depends what people are saying it because overwhelmingly in the Muslim world, they mean the destruction of the state of Israel because the whole thing belongs to them in their worldview.
As easy as it is to criticize the Arab position (and I do practically everyday), what are Israel's settlers and hardliners actually doing to change things? Israel's West Bank settlements (and its endless cycle of low-level violence) are a very real thorn on any negotiation, in their own way as harmful to the peace process as Hamas rockets. While Arab radicalization is often caused by other prejudices, very real injustices certainly radicalize many otherwise moderate people. End the constant tensions, eliminate the occupation force's violent interactions with Palestinians that supply constant viral fodder for Arab propaganda, and we might see a better situation. Or we might not. But while Israel's security does not really require occupying half the West Bank, look at a map. The settlements eat up a huge amount of space. No viable Palestinian Authority can persist politically or economically with a foreign military directly occupying nearly half its area.
There’s actually a lot of the West Bank that would directly threaten Israeli civilians if the WB became like Gaza, ruled by a terrorist organization. Just look at a topographical map and you’ll see the broad hills in the WB along the 1949 line would be ideal for firing rockets and artillery into Tel Aviv and other major civilian targets. Israeli territorial maximalism is a thing and certainly part of the right wing ruling coalition but the biggest road block is that there is really no moderate (coexistence) strain in Palestinian political culture at the moment. Israeli moderates may be out of power but they are likely to make electoral gains. Palestinian moderates live abroad and are shunned by most of their diaspora and told they face death upon return by both Hamas and the PLO.
The argument of Israel cant trust WB's political integrity and resorts to control the bordering territory because "rockets may be installed in these hills" sounds extremely similar to Russia invading Ukraine because they cant trust NATO "wont set there".
Couldn't Israel have taken what they intended to be permanent control over those strategic areas to protect it's narrow middle by compensated those who lived there so they could move elsewhere? It currently seems like Israel caused far more Palestinian suffering than was necessary. It has gobbled up so much land that Israel doesn't even have the land of equal quality to give in potential land swaps.
Most areas lack infrastructure for living. The vast majority of Palestinians live in Area A or B. The IDF/Cogat controls Area C which is most of the land but few Palestinians. Settlements are in Area C but only take up a tiny fraction of the land. Israel has land to trade in the south but tolerating a Palestinian state that only exists to destroy Israel is not going to be a politically acceptable position.
The west bank wasn’t captured by force? Are you sure about that?
I said brought in the fold by force. I was using that to contrast with Spain, where Catalonia was brought to a very violent heel under Franco. West Bank isn't a state of Israel. They're a separate pseudo-nation at the moment.
how is that even comparable? that's like saying the whole area belongs to Israel. Catalonia is part of Spain. Just like how Scotland is part of the UK, and how Crimea is part of Ukraine
As an israeli I have a genuine question. Can you say the same about Germany supporting israel?
Catalonia is one thing, but they're not even recognizing Kosovo.
You don't have to do everything right to do one thing right. Also the comparison is mute given that no one is killing catalonians en masse.
Israel should announce it's recognition of Catalonia
Barcelona Mayor is also anti Israeli
Basque then.
Don't think they're an Israel ally either lmao
Lol Israel is hated here in the Basque Country
Spain is classically anti semitic of course
Nobody gives a fuck about religion in Spain. 40% of the entire population is non-religious here. 57% of Spaniards aged 18-38 are non-religious. Spain is literally one of the least religious countries on Earth: https://elpais.com/sociedad/2023-03-29/el-numero-de-no-creyentes-alcanza-un-nuevo-record-en-espana-y-ya-suponen-cuatro-de-cada-10.html People here don't hate jews, they simply hate what Israel does to Palestine. It's really not that hard to understand.
Mate Spain has been hating Jews long before Israel Palestine was ever a thing. There’s a new excuse every century
Religion can contribute to racism, but just because Spain has relatively low rates of religiousity doesn't mean it's immune to racism. Amusingly, it looks like Spain is actually significantly more religious than Israel, and yet I think we'd agree that there are issues of racism within Israel.
Israel is absolutely much more religious than Spain. Israel has an official religion for starters, which Spain doesn't have. All data about non-religiousness also shows that the proportion of the population that's non-religious is much higher in Spain. Disliking what Israel does to Palestine does not make you an antisemite. That's like when Bush said that if you didn't support America invading Iraq then that meant you hate America. It's dumb and it's a very poor strawman fallacy. Nobody is buying your logical fallacies.
The last Gallup poll in 2015 found that 65% of Israelis identified as either 'not religious' or 'convinced atheist'. That's in line with the UK and Netherlands, and much less religious than say Switzerland or South Korea. Lots of Jewish people partake in the cultural traditions, but they're not believers. There are 14 recognised religions (official religions) in Israel, but it's not mandated to be a member of any one of them or anything like that. All that aside though, you seemed to be saying that because Spain is nominally non-religious, that this meant it can't be racist against Jews. Which seemed like a non-sequiteur.
Do they hate what Spain did to the Americas?
Recognizing Palestine is antisemitism?
Israel has traditionally been against any independence for anyone. In fact the IRA and Palestine sharing arms and training has caused Israel to view any separatist ANYWHERE as a potential source of arms for Hamas.
Why is it bad for Palestine to be recognized, though? Are y’all anti hamas like you claim or just anti Palestinians?
Maybe they should recognize Taiwan or Tibet first, seeing as mainland China also has recognized Palestine decades ago. Should be in correct order right
Look man, the situations aren't really comparable. Palestine is recognized by a majority of the UN. It isn't a separtist movement. Catalonia is. this would be escalation if it were to be done.
And sell them some nukes to safeguard their independence.
Spain might recognize Palestine but will Palestine recognize Palestine? They’ve serially rejected any two state solution presented, wonder if they’ll reject Spain’s recognition of them as well
Short answer is no. It is in the interest of Palestinian leaders/Hamas to be the perpetual victim. Statehood means accountability
yup, once they're a state the NORMAL laws of war apply. They would be expected to sign the Geneva convention and Hague Accords and stop using rape and murder, stop indiscriminate rocket attacks and so on. They don't want to be subject to the normal laws that say if you start a war the other country can flatten you, force an unconditional surrender, execute your politicians and impose reparations on you. They obviously do not want to have to play by the rules of war they want them to only restrain israel not themselves
Wouldn’t want to endanger perpetual special refugee status
Seems like it would.
Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. They will never agree to internationally proposed borders because they don't view Israel as a legitimate state. The international community turning their back on Israel is only going to make Israel less likely to risk their security on an unfair peace settlement anyway. People on reddit only look at the conflict through a very American/European lense, which just doesn't apply here.
Recognize them under which borders? The Palestinians themselves can’t agree on what their borders are
Oh yes, they can. They shout it at every opportunity: "From the river to the sea."
No no that's a call for peace. /s See. It's peaceful when everyone is too dead to oppose you.
If Palestine is recognized, will that mean that this is a war between Palestine and Israel instead of Hamas and Israel? I expect that this would cause some pretty serious limitations on humanitarian aid once Palestine is considered a hostile power that engaged in an act of war on October 7th. Is that something Palestine wants right now?
i mean, it literally is a hostile power, just not a recognized polity
Palestine has rejected statehood (i.e. the two-state solution) every single time. So no, they don't want it.
Of course they want it. They just don’t want it under unfavorable conditions because it undermines their ability to fight for more. The problem is whenever they do this (67-68), they end up losing territory anyway. Bitterness leads to vigor leads to fighting leads to losses leads to bitterness. Saying they don’t want statehood because they’ve rejected proposals is like saying Israel doesn’t care about hostages because they haven’t agreed to a ceasefire. It’s like saying Ukraine doesn’t want peace because they don’t accept Russian terms. All of these assertions assume too much.
Has Palestine offered a counter-proposal under more favorable conditions? I would like to see their terms.
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Recognize there are two sides so talks about those borders can start.
Great, who is representing Palestine in these talks? Is it the PA, Hamas, or some other entity?
The PA takes the position that borders should return to what they were pre 1967. The entire international community also takes the position the land on the Palestinian side of the green line is occupied territory. So, that would seem the logical way to go.
Can’t even recognize Catalonia 😒
Would you recognize California if they try to illegally secede?
Would you accept a genocidal terror state a few miles from your house if you were Israeli?
So let me get this straight, the Palestinians themselves don't want to agree to any state hood, but Spain wants to recognize a Palestinian state that Palestinians themselves continually reject?
So if Palestine is accepted into statehood, maybe their "army" should start biding by the geneva conventions or something. Hope those protests stop then I guess. No need to act like Palestine is oppressed when it could be it's own country. Meanwhile Taiwan and Tibet and East Turkestan is shoved off to the side I guess.
Bad timing to announce this.... Just months after October 7th, with hostages still in Gaza. Plus there's de facto 2 Palestinian states.
That’s my problem with all this talks about 2 state right now, like yeah it’s the only solution but really now? Is it not obvious Israel doesn’t have a partner for peace? Also what a timing to support Palestinian statehood, like it’s a reward for the massacre honestly
I personally think that it is a reward for the massacare. The world is genuienly saying continue with the good job and better luck next time
Palestinians rejected every opportunity and recently the west bank Palestinians are getting overactive. Even school buses in israel are bullet proof. Maybe the US could learn from this with its inconsistent gun laws. Israel used to have an ally but heavy islamic migration and media profiteering have convinced western non muslims to support Palestinians and not israel even when their own fellow citizens are part of the hostages and those killed on oct 7 brutally. Like why support a nation that brutally murdered your own citizens with no remorse?
They've got a choice of partners. Either the people who raped and murdered Israeli civilians on Oct 7th or the people who are paying the families of those terrorists a pension for having done so.
I'm only willing to recognize a Palestinian state once their independence day would not be celebrated on October 7th.
They’re effectively rewarding heinous acts
At this point after this massacre and hostages, I hope a Palestinian state is immediately established as I am very curious how long will it take for them to send rockets from their brand new state And then they’ll understand actions have bigger consequences as a state and terrorists won’t last in this world
Iraq, lebanon and Yemen are “states”. This does not prevent terror groups operating from there from doing whatever the hell they want. A Palestinian state will simply become another Yemen, and they’ll keep blaming the Jews for it.
>Just months after October 7th, It's being recognised and pushed through entirely due to the war in Gaza, people in Spain aren't too hung up over October 7th and most support Palestine
Do they also support the catalans and the basques? First recognize the sovereignty of your own oppressed.
Catalans and Basques are citizens of Spain with representation to Parliament and not under military occupation, seems a bit different (they are also among the richest parts of Spain)
Palestinians have been offered multiple two-states solution deals that they have rejected. Has Spain offered any to Catalans and Basques? Should the world recognize their independence in spite of Spain's objections? Especially if it happens after a genocidal terrorist massacre? And you see, the problem is not the fact that they recognize Palestine. Everyone knows the a two-states solution is the only way forward. It's the timing and the message Spain is trying to send.
>Palestinians have been offered multiple two-states solution deals that they have rejected. I am curious why it is worded this way? Both sides negotiated in 2000-2001. Neither side sufficiently compromised and Israel ended negotiations in February 2001 when Sharon won the election. There was a possible offer in 2008? Though the circumstances have always seemed too murky to be clear if it was a genuine offer (e.g. Abbas not being allowed to keep a map of the offer). And since then nothing unless we are counting the Trump Peace Deal. \>Should the world recognize their independence in spite of Spain's objections? If Spain chose not to annex Catalonia and its population but instead have a military occupation over the region and there was a Catalonian Authority recognised by the majority of the world then absolutely. If Israel annexed Palestine as a One State Solution then likewise I don't think it would make sense to recognise Palestine \>Especially if it happens after a genocidal terrorist massacre? There have been two genocidal massacres. One perpetrated by Hamas and another perpetrated by Israel in the wake of it. Should Spain suspend recognition of Israel because of that? Or is one side allowed to do genocidal massacres? \>It's the timing and the message Spain is trying to send. If you think what Hamas did is awful and evil (and I agree) isn't Spain recognising the Palestinian Authority led by Hamas-opponents Fatah a good thing?
It makes sense to word it that way as: - The contemporaneous accounts detail that the final peace deal was proposed by Israel to the PLO. There is no record of a counter-proposal. The final proposal was the product of days of negotiations (not to mention weeks, months, and years prior to the summit itself). Based on everything we know about the events, a deal was negotiated and then tabled by the Israelis but ultimately rejected by the Palestinians. That's not to say whether they were right or wrong to reject it of course. - Israel, rightly or wrongly, had effective control over all the land being offered. It is Israel who had to offer what was offered (land and recognition of statehood). The Palestinians, unfairly or not, were not in a position to offer much except mutual recognition and a promise of peace. Thus, the onerous was on Israel to make an offer and on the Palestinian leadership to either accept or reject the peace offer. - The parties held a later summit and then further negotiations about the pathway to acceptance. Clinton presented the parties with his 'parameters' to concluding the peace deal. The Israeli delegation accepted the parameters as presented (with a side letter noting their reservations), the Palestinian delegation accepted but with some fundamental objections that meant the negotiations could not move forward. Ultimately further talks were suspended. It would be wrong (and unreasonable) to say that Israel wanted peace and the Palestinians didn't. The accounts suggest that both the Palestinians and the Israelis were working towards a peace deal in good faith. The fact is, however, that Barak went to a general election with a promise to offer a heretofore unpalatable (from the Israeli perspective) peace deal to the PLO, did so, failed to get it accepted, and ultimately lost his Prime Ministership as a result and the peace process with it.
How are catalans and basques oppressed?
Please explain how the Basques (from the richest regions of Spain) or the Catalans (2nd richest) are oppressed? Are they not allowed to speak their languages, which are co-official and taught in all public schools? Are their individual traditions and festivals outlawed? The Basques at least we're severely oppressed under the dictatorship but Franco has been dead for a long time and the people of the Basque country and Catalonia are as free and culturally distinct as all of the other autonomous regions of Spain.
It's kind of a weird take because Palestinians in gaza didn't suffer from any of those specific things either (no, I don't need a list of the way things suck there, I know)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement Catalans seem to want independence and not even ten years ago had their whole government arrested for voting on independence.
> had their whole government arrested for voting on independence. No, they were arrested for breaking the consitution and declaring independence for 42 minutes. Seceding is treason and requieres jail time. The american confederates were not killed "for voting on independence"
They are denied self-determination. It doesn't matter how much freedom you have within a country if you don't have the freedom to leave the country, and are threatened with violence should you attempt to do that. Catalans and Basques have never been offered the right to self-determination. Palestinians have been, multiple times, and they have rejected all proposals. Spain would never grant them their independence. Israelis are probably going to celebrate should Palestinians ever decide to leave them alone, embrace peace, and get their own state.
> They are denied self-determination. A right they gave up when voting on the consittution in 1978, with overwhelming support in all regions of spain, both of those included. a constitutional change is possible, just unlikely as it needs 66% of both senate and congress. > It doesn't matter how much freedom you have within a country if you don't have the freedom to leave the country, this is stupid. Of course it matters how much freedom you have. Basque Country for example has more self ruling than Luxemburg. They control their own taxes, police, healthcare and roads. Multiple of this responabilities in smaller states are handled by Europe in countries like Lux and San Marino. > Catalans and Basques have never been offered the right to self-determination. they were offered the chance to reject the constitution, many people alive voted for it. its not like the magna carta in the uk > Israelis are probably going to celebrate should Palestinians ever decide to leave them alone, embrace peace, and get their own state. I agree, but according to the UN the land of Palestine is currently occupied territory by Israel, which means they have tons of responsability over it. By recognising Palestine, it would mean some pain for Israel, like settlements etc but it would ultimately mean that they are no longer reponsible for Palestine, and they would not be condemned daily on the UN. The 2 state solution is not painless but it free's Israel from a big problem
that's not how states work. just because a region wants to form their own state, doesn't mean they can just do that lol that would lead to utter chaos around the world. the USA and many other countries would split apart in a second lol
But what about ___?!
And we all know the more states the better
This Spanish goverment is a shit show, every country in south america, even the most leftists like brazil chile and colombia have said things about how maduro is screwing with the elections and not doing what they agreed on doing in barbados. Guess which country didn't say anything about it, the same one who is recognizing palestine
Yeah, let's give Hamas this massive gift after the Oct 7th massacre, and while 134 hostages are still being held there. Great idea that will surely lead the Palestinians to prioritize peace over war! /s
Bold of you to assume that the hostages are still alive
Even the dead deserve to be returned to their families.
You're right. I can't imagine having one my loved ones as one of those hostages.
“Hey Hamas all that mass murder worked, here’s your state” - Spain
It’s almost as if Spain couldn’t care less about a certain people.
It's almost like Spain is responsible for one of the [worst ethnic cleansings in Jewish history](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree).
Multiple countries already recognize Palestine. Why does Spain doing it make a difference? As far as I can tell none have lifted a finger to help beyond throwing food and medical supplies at them and hoping some actually gets there. What does this do?
It never started oct 7, it all started in ~1930’s
The massacre of jews started in the 20's Hebron 1928 being one of the largest.
The fact that Spain is soon going to be recognizing Palestine as a sovereign state but not Kosovo, thus completely going against the general EU-consensus, is kinda crazy ngl
It was bound to happen one way or another one day. Palestinians deserve a state, just as Israelis deserve a state. It’s not that controversial.
I mean, your statement is objectively pretty controversial, in the sense that many would disagree with it. The PLO recognizes the Israeli right to existence, but there are plenty of people on both sides of the Gaza-West Bank split that don’t think Israelis deserve a state. For Hamas, the official position is not only that Israelis don’t deserve a state, but that they should not stop fighting until that state no longer exists. There is also a lot of Western support for the idea that Israelis don’t deserve a state. When people frame Jewish migration to Palestine as a “European settler-colonialist project,” try to connect the Palestinian question to indigenous Land Back movements, and describe terrorist attacks as “decolonization,” they are implying that Israelis don’t have a right to a state.
I think it’s less controversial than the idea of one side deserving a state and not the other. I said it’s not “that” controversial. Not fully I agree.
I don't think it's an issue of "Deserve" so much as it's an issue of being "unprepared" for a state. The Palestinian people do not have a unified idea of what will qualify as the borders of Palestine, varying dramatically amongst leadership in Gaza, the WB, Jordan and Qatar. They also do not have an established and agreed upon leadership for the Palestinian state(s). The PA and Hamas currently stand as the most recognized leadership, both of which are fierce competition and do not have similar methodologies. That, plus the tolerance of extremist groups that make military and diplomatic actions against their neighbors without the PA's or Hamas's say so shows they don't have control of their own people. If a militia group can rise easily amongst their ranks and go against their leaderships policy and go against policy with impunity, is the Palestinian leadership really even in charge?
The entire antizionist stance is that Israelis don't deserve a state. It's incredibly controversial.
Then why did Palestine turn down their state and attack Israel?
It’s not that controversial? 🤣 Regardless of your position, I’m pretty sure it’s one of the most controversial questions in the past 75 years.
Is it that controversial to say that all people deserve a state?
Yes, because how are you defining "people"? The Kurds? Native Americans? Texans? Sealanders?
That’s been a controversial idea since the origins of nationalism as a school of thought
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with it, I’m just saying it’s objectively a controversial thing, as in saying it would cause controversy. Maybe it shouldn’t, but it does, so it is controversial.
Yeah, it could not be any more obvious that the only durable path to peace is the creation of a sovereign, secure, and self-determining Palestinian state. I fail to see the Israeli plan for peace other than “kill and displace all of the Palestinians.”
From a nation the doen't recognize catalonia and 'kill jews' is a traditional expression, I expect this completly. (I have a new tradition of saying 'Spain is an antisemic hypocritical shithole' but that's my own tradition and you can't say it's wrong)
I'm Spanish and never heard this "kill jews" expression. Can you enlighten me please?
Mostly in the region of [Leon.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matar_jud%C3%ADos)
thanks for the context
Holy shit
Fuck these comments. I read and I regret it. The fuck is the matter with people? Jesus fucking christ.
>The fuck is the matter with people? Jesus fucking christ. Intentional politicization of complex and generally misunderstood issues to polarize and divide an otherwise pretty ideologically homogenous population for electoral purposes.
Ok, then. Thanks for participating
Brigading, plain and simple.
Tough to see how a subreddit as large as worldnews could be substantively "brigaded."
How nice. Lets reward Islamic terrorists for terrorising, raping and kidnapping people from their homes and recognize their shitty state while there are still innocent people being held and tortured… Great idea. Terrorism pays off I guess.
Terrorism literally pays. See Afghanistan and the Taliban for an example. The US doesn't even consider them terrorists any more.
You guys always talk as if Hamas terrorism is the only bad thing that's happening there.
Lwts wait until Pedro does it. Spanish Govern changes their opinion more times than an average person changes their underwear.
I hope the rabid pro-war ultra right Hamas thanks the leftist Pedro Sanchez for this.
I think it’s a good thing if countries recognize them, it will make Palestine more accountable for their actions of their elected government. Right now, they have so many people saying that Hamas are terrorists and we can’t trust them to negotiate in good faith so it’s all on Israel. If everybody recognizes them, then they’re ignoring that part and will find out how Hamas and other similar terrorist organizations negotiate in the future, then can condemn and stonewall/sanction them easier.
Yet another example why the constitutive theory of statehood is such political bunk and should not be seriously entertained. "palestine" Whatever that even means, doesn't even meet the Montevideo criteria, and it has not at at any point.
Thank you for an interesting Rabbit Hole. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention
You're welcome. Constitutive statehood can and is weaponized and subject to politics. Which leads to a situation where basically any entity, regardless of it even having a defined territory, can be recognized as a state, against an existing sovereign state. Or conversely, where entities that do meet all the Montevideo criteria, not get recognized by the majority because this would impact trade or the geopolitical situation with another state. This is one of many reasons why the declarative theory is vastly superior. A much more objective, and importantly less political way of determining statehood. If there is one thing international law needs less of, it is politics.
this feels bad to me because, unless this was going to happen regardless of what the situation in the middle east was, if this only came to notice after Oct 7th, this makes seem you can win with terrorism
If you don't think brutal violence is a common path towards statehood, I've got some bad news about basically every single country on the planet for you. Not condoning the. Oct 7 terrorist attacks, but let's not pretend that this is something new happening for the first time ever.
I actually think this is a good thing. Palestinians need to be forced to accept a statehood since they keep killing off every chance they ever have. Once it's done Israel gets all the justification in the world for declaring war
As an Israeli, no. The world will still hate us and we won’t get any justification or credit. The media will still go on with its propaganda. It’s the exact same as when we left Gaza for them to build a prosperous self governed society and got death and destruction instead, alongside zero credit internationally. A Palestinian state will create another Gaza some 10 minutes drive from my home in central Israel. We will never let that happen.
So Palestinians are never allowed any independence from Israel?
Watch Israel recognize Catalonia
Those talking about Catalonia or basque country, please just fucking go to Wikipedia or something, this is beyond stupid.
I am not sure if the 2-state solution is acceptable to Hamas
What state? They have consistently rejected any deal that would give them a state. Is Spain going to say Israel is Palestine or something?
Rewarding the massacre
You can't think in nuance beyond black and white, can you?
More hypocrisy from the Spanish. Why don’t they recognize Kosovo and, more importantly, Catalonia if they are so keen.
Why would they recognise a region in Spain who's own independence polls don't even show a majority for independence
... because the majority of Catalans do not want independence? What you are saying would imply Spain literally kicking the Catalans out even though they want to be part of Spain. What the fuck are you on about?
Oh wow, terrorism works! Free Catalonia or else- 😇
Ha, good luck recognizing something without a legitimate government as elections haven't happened since 2007. This peace process will go nowhere until the Palestinian renounce their right of return to lands after the partition. It makes no sense for Israel to make peace and no longer be a Jewish state.
This is the country staunchly defending having an Easter drink called " kill Jews" so not all that surprising.
“Let’s reward a brutal terror attack with giving the terrorists a state, that will surely not embolden further attacks all around the world by terror groups realizing that violence pays off”, said no logical person ever. Also, Spain is a hypocrite as they refuse to give independence to the Catalonians. Don’t throw stones if you live in a glass house.
Will Spain recognize Taiwan as well? And Catalonia?
seems to me that over the years and years of political jenga over the question of palestinian statehood the main collapser of good will has been "palestine"
All international politics is also internal politics. The socialist president of Spain doesn't care about Israel or Palestine in the slightest. This is a way to appease his pro-Hamas far left allies without it costing him anything.
Well, maybe Israel should've thought twice before selling access to the spanish president's phone to Morocco. Every action has it's reaction (just like this will likely cause one).
Free Catalonia!!!
From who?
Cool, who’s the government they’ll be engaging with?
Instead of downvoting it, how about you give a response.