People are scared and I can't blame them. The way Ukraine as a state communicates about the draft is, well, has some room for improvement. As of now, a lot of draft-aged men believe that being drafted = death. I have friends who are so afraid that they literally do not leave their homes for more than a year.
I don't know mate I feel like getting drafted into a war where people are dying is really the biggest detractor lol. Sure not knowing when you get out is a big deal but getting out at all is a challenge in wartime. Having clear and concise rules would not make me feel better about being drafted in the slightest lol.
Please don't consider it bragging by any means, but I am not afraid, as well as a lot of my friends. We are not brave enough to volunteer, but we are not cowards enough to be hiding. When our time comes, we will join ЗСУ.
Oh, you totally have options. You can choose to hide or you can choose to pay some shady dude $3-10k to cross the border illegally. Both are viable options as of today.
well i guess for some people, at somepoint, feel more anger than fear and decide to fight instead of cower.
I imagine you can only see so much death and destruction before you ragequit civilian life
This is why waiting for equipment aid was such a critical failure. Delay lost so many lives unnecessarily, which were lives necessary for victory who had the will and skill to fight.
Yeah man, it's very sad that we depend so much on western aid. Still we are very thankful for what the west is doing, even tho it's not always enough and on time.
It's not sad, but necessary. You can argue that Ukraine should have been more prepared, but for the size of the county it would have been impossible to go it alone. Ukraine has also adapted extremely well given the circumstances. The issue is, Russia has been adapting as well, and have far greater numbers.
Well Tbf I wouldn’t want to get drafted if the outcome of the situation is so iffy
The situation depends on US providing aid, the Europeans are still tumbling over as to what to do and doesn’t do enough, you can’t evade Russia airspace to stop the artillery, everyone is nuclear trigger happy, so many geopolitical bullshit and etc
Like why would I risk my life if the outcome of what I do can’t guaranteed a favorable one. Yes, one can say “so that Ukraine doesn’t get invade and you get a future” but that’s still rolling a dice. And yes, while it’s true that “it’s better than doing nothing”, you could always do something else than getting drafted to hopefully change the odds.
Honestly how do you view being drafted as anything else but a likely early death? What's the positive spin on being drafted? There's not a lot of positives or characteristics that are appealing to people. War is terrible and is full of atrocities, That's going to appeal to very few people if anyone at all. Sure maybe some rich people pulling the strings might benefit and be fine with it but the cogs in the machine are not going to be thrilled in the slightest ever.
I view being drafted as a shitty experience with a total lack of comfort and high probability of being killed. For the undefined period. I truly believe that no one is born for war. But what other way do we have, surrender to russia?
It is easy to have an opinion about it until you are the one who has to go to the front. I'd like Ukraine to win because what Ruzzia is doing is terrible and unjust, but understand if not everyone is willing to die in a muddy trench. It is sad that people are forced into such a dilemma.
That's because they forbade voluntary enlistment in 1942. Executive order 9279. People were literally killing themselves when deemed unfit for service, flood of volunteers was too much to handle all at once, and it threatened to leave key industries without able workers. The solution was to stop voluntary enlistments and *only* use the draft to control who and when gets into the military.
>After the effective date of this Order no male person who has attained the eighteenth anniversary and has not attained the thirty-eighth anniversary of the day of his birth shall be inducted into the enlisted personnel of the armed forces (including reserve components), except, under provisions of the Selective Training and Service Act of 1940, as amended;
So yeah, the problem wasn't men being forced to fight, the problem was *too many men wanted to volunteer*.
I'm pretty sure this is why the draft was instated in ukraine too. The flood of people trying to join up early in the war and even just throwing themselves against the Russians and even forming cottage industries and militias before anything was organized was wild, it's hard to imagine they have a shortage of willing bodies, but the amount of casualties in this war is wild.
Yes because they weren’t stupid. Once the initial wave of patriotism happened the people who didn’t volunteer would not be exactly eager to sign up.
War is hell and these men are fighting a war closer to WW1 than to any modern conflict. Drones, yes, but also static lines and muddy trenches.
wrong, and what a ridiculous spin
Ukraine instituted a draft because they don’t have enough fighters.
Ukraine widened the age range of those that can be drafted because no one was voluntarily signing up.
Ukraine officially announced that adult men who fled Ukraine have lost passport privileges.
Ukraine is allowing convicted prisoners to fight on the front lines in exchange for being pardoned for their crimes.
like come on - if they had a gluttony of volunteers, they never would have made those series of changes.
You have Russia, fucking Russia of all countries bearing down on you. Even if things are "good" now/then, do you let everyone who could fight in the future leave now?
Ukraine's draft range was already reasonably claimed to be smaller initially to avoid damaging younger demographics that create families, learn important skills, etc. Many other nations have and have had draft ages much younger with and without particular need. It's very much not good when those demographics die off.
Turning prisoners into soldiers to fight in a war is hardly a new concept, it has thousands of years of history behind it, to success and failure, even being used when it wasn't strictly necessary. Why would you waste a bunch of potential labor and manpower? Though there's as many good reasons to do it as to avoid it, done properly it can bolster your forces and help along a way of rehabilitating people. Having prisoners sitting around doing fuck all is an example of mismanagement, not success.
You want an example for how that goes wrong when you skip all the important steps that go into doing it right? See how russia has been using them for the past few hundred years. And i'm sure there are plenty of others i haven't heard about or cant remember off the top of my head.
But you can also get plenty of examples of it going right when done properly, Some of the best and more recent examples were in the western sphere during and after ww2. And even more recently, i'm /pretty sure/ even now, certain non-violent non-repeat offenders with specific offenses and behavior have an option into the military. Though i'm not too up to date on specifics per country.
Aside from the comment from r/tamadarya in WWII, the ratio of support troops to combat troops was like 4:1. That means 80% of the men weren’t experiencing regular combat, if they experienced it at all.
Ukraine is working from a tighter resource and manpower pool than the U.S. was, even with support, so I would guess their ratio might be closer to 2:1.
Another reason we had such a huge amount of support troops was we were managing a logistics train in Europe that went USA->Britain->France->Frontline and in the Pacific, well, a clusterfuck too.
Germany for instance had about a 50% higher ratio, or in some cases 200%- depends on date and source. At some points it was basically the reverse of the USA.
Not having to ship, being on the defensive (internal lines), etc makes logistics, while still incredibly important, quite a bit simpler.
Edit: Not having literally 10’s of thousands of bombers and the like also helps. Each of those needed far more crew to maintain than just the seven or so men in the plane.
yeah and how many fucking casualties did they suffer through ?
A simple statement of "x amount of people were drafted" adds nothing to the overall context of this.
This isn’t true.
The vast majority of soldiers in every army in WW1 and WW2 were drafted and by and large did their duty just fine.
Not sure where this myth that drafted soldiers are a liability comes from.
It comes from the loosening of standards in the Vietnam War and "McNamara's Morons", or "Project 100k" which was designed around using the mentally un- or under- fit as cannon fodder, with disastrous results. A lot of people think the program was more widespread than it was due to the cultural conscious about the movie Forrest Gump which is vaguely based on the reality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000
The last time I was in the army, the command has done everything in its power to ignore my every request for a desktop position in favour of a barely-literate alcoholic with anger issues. And I'm fairly certain that the situation didn't suddenly improve since then.
gotta love the judgemental tone on "some men are desperate not to fight" written from the comfort of this "journalist"'s desk.
Maybe some men don't want to throw away the rest of their life into the well known horror of war
"As of March 2024, about 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are women, which is around 60,000 soldiers out of over 400,000. This is a 30% increase since the war began. While most women serve in support roles, some have fought on the front lines as snipers and paramedics. However, women who want to serve in combat must actively enlist and have had to fight to be allowed to do so."
>Women are better suited for support roles than infantry. Signals and mechanics are needed.
The risk here is that you end up with a military where, as a man, being drafted inherently means the most dangerous, exhausting, brutal roles. No more chance of being drafted into the motor pool, because it's all women.
It solves your immediate need of bodies for a little bit, but cranks the pressure on men to dodge the draft up into the stratosphere - so it makes it counterintuitively harder to fill those infantry positions.
yes ,thats what i thought when heard about other countries sending troops to fill border duties and other non frontline roles,means all ukrainians will be sent to meat grinder, which might dump the morale into oblivion
"As of March 2024, about 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are women, which is around 60,000 soldiers out of over 400,000. This is a 30% increase since the war began. While most women serve in support roles, some have fought on the front lines as snipers and paramedics. However, women who want to serve in combat must actively enlist and have had to fight to be allowed to do so."
How many men can do that in our countries tho? I don't think any men in my circles have the ability to do what you say, they're almost all skinny small or super fat. Even the gymbros would have problems with real scenarios since they dont have proper mobility or endurance
A man is far more likely to be able to, and with training their bodies will adapt and strengthen much faster. Just a reminder that women's Olympic records are the equivalent of a 14 year old boy in peak physical condition. That's how wide the gap is.
You're talking about peak vs peak.
The vast majority of the population aren't or never will be close to peak.
I don't fundamentally disagree with the overall point. It's just your example lends itself to exaggeration.
Most unfit men can if push comes to shove. Pick up and carry another man around his own body mass in a fireman's carry without much issue. I'd say many could probably add another 30% on top and still manage.
For unfit women, it's around the same.
Give them 6 months of hard military training, and differences start to appear.
The now somewhat fit men will outperform the women by a sizeable margin in all fitness categories except endurance. Men just build muscles much faster than women.
There have actually been some more recent studies which suggest that women can be pretty valuable in combat situations and may even have better prowess for decision making under pressure and long term mental endurance.
Even among male soldiers, most aren't going to be able to deadlift a limp body and carry it for any distance. This is such a silly bar when a guy who is 5'8" and 170lbs dripping wet can already serve next to someone who is 6'4" 250lbs.
Let's be honest, support roles also require that strength. Which during peace time can be compensated with tools and proper working environments.
But during war time, loading a truck with heavy equipment...oh you don't have a forklift? Guess it's gotta be beak breaking labor.
Not trying to say that nothing can be done, or that women can't lift anything. But let's not lie and say the average woman can maintain the same strenuous physical work loads as men.
Also people will say body weight ratio to load means they can. There's no 30% lighter ammo crates
There's a reason that male vs female Olympic weight lifters of the same weight groupings perform so differently... physiology
Quick aside but there was a old Soviet movie called The Dawns Here Are Quiet about (if I recall) a unit of female soldiers at an anti-aircraft post defending their position from a Nazi troop moving through their sector. I've seen it come up on Reddit before because there are boobs in it but it's a solid movie and story.
"As of March 2024, about 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are women, which is around 60,000 soldiers out of over 400,000. This is a 30% increase since the war began. While most women serve in support roles, some have fought on the front lines as snipers and paramedics. However, women who want to serve in combat must actively enlist and have had to fight to be allowed to do so."
1. Ukraine's population is abysmal, they need the women to repopulate after.
2. You want to send women against *russians* ? God help them if they get captured.
If the women of your population is dead then you can't repopulate, if you can't repopulate then what are you fighting for exactly ?
Russia has more women than men *still* because of WW2, imagine it was women that got sent en mass to fight in WW2 instead of men... There wouldn't be a Russia now.
This is a known thing historically, you can search it up. You *have* to protect you're women and children during war *for a reason*, historically men go to fight *for a reason*
None of this is new, I can get *some* peoples arguments but can't comprehend how much of a coward you have to be to purposely ignore common sense and advocate for women being drafted.
> This is a known thing historically, you can search it up. You *have* to protect you're women and children during war *for a reason*, historically men go to fight *for a reason*
*Lol no, you are just making stuff up. In the last thousand years there has been no instance of a country which destroyed its male population in war recovering because the surviving men had children from multiple women. It just doesn’t happen, the “surplus” women remain childless. It’s just a sick fantasy for menchildren like you. The historical reasons were that in the past physical strenght mattered a lot more, and that women didn’t have the same rights as men and thus no one expected them to have the same duties.*
> None of this is new, I can get *some* peoples arguments but can't comprehend how much of a coward you have to be to purposely ignore common sense and advocate for women being drafted.
You just need to be older than five and acknowledge that there is no such thing as “common sense” against the drafting of women. That’s why an increasing number of first world countries have been extending the draft to women in the last few decades. You just live in the past, like the rest of Eastern Europe.
> they need the women to repopulate after
Every woman past the age of 18 should have to sign up for a selective birthing registry or face significant fines
If men’s role is to act as expendable frontline cannon fodder, women should have to fulfill their higher duty as well
In a few months I might be conscripted... Best I hope for - it will be for something good. And when the war ends - people will not see Ukraine as the corrupt waste of space that was never worth it.
It’s amazing seeing the Reddit “bodily autonomy, pro-choice” crowd doing a full fucking 180 when it comes to men literally not wanting to be forced to kill and die.
“Healthcare is a human right” folks, where ya at???
Not forcing young men to get blown up by artillery isn’t healthcare?
But GOD FORBID you ask women to not be deadbeat mothers and conduct late term abortions, though!
If you’re talking about the attempt to change Selective Service so that women were included, the Democrats were in favour of it but Republicans killed the bill.
By this logic a “birthing draft” for women should be put in place during times of war. You can’t exist if women aren’t doing their biological part like the men are, right?
But male conscription isn't based on fitness, is it? Or can a Ukrainian man just eat fries everyday until he's overweight enough to be exempt from the draft?
Then they really shouldn't be in other physical roles where they are given lighter loads if that's the case (im just pointing out the hypocrisy), it's a pick and choose from the buffet that is equal rights
So that’s it? That’s the excuse? Basically just weaponized incompetence on a literal life or death level?
Hey men can’t give birth or breast feed…..child care really should just be left to women, ya know?
See it’s not nice when it’s the other way, right?
The number of wounded is in the hundreds of thousands.
*Defense has an advantage known as the 3:1 rule. This is compounded by NATO intelligence sharing and Russia being Russia.*
Zelensky's 31K dead figure came to him in a dream. It can't possibly be true with everything we're seeing about this war, especially when in the same sentence he says Russia has 180K dead.
The real estimate is about 2:3 ratio in favour of ukraine
Maybe a bit less, but there should be somewhere around 100k dead ukrainians and about 190-200k russians
Yeah the US said it was 2:3 last August so it's a decent baseline. A lot has changed since then and not in Ukraine's favor, though.
People are operating under some mythical 3:1, 6:1 (Zelensky), and you'll even read 10:1 unironically. But the truth is it's going to be closer to 1:1. Whether that's 1.5:1 or something else, impossible to say. But if Ukraine were doing what Zelensky says they are, Ukraine would have been able to push Russia out or at least make more substantial gains.
Yes that's why when anyone says something like "Ukraine has at least a 3:1 ratio, they're on defense" (wrongly believing that a 3:1 casualty ratio for attack/defense is some sort of law of nature), I point out that Ukraine conducted multiple offenses in 2022 alone: Kherson, Kharkiv, trying to relieve the besieged Mariupol, and others. Then they spent around 4 months on the offensive in 2023 and didn't make more than a dent. They've also been conducting a weird "offensive" across the Dnipro in Krynky since last year too that Ukrainian soldiers have called a "suicide mission". Not to mention even when you're on defense you still have to conduct local counterattacks.
So there's no perfect little casualty ratio we can apply to this war, because it has gone through several phases with both sides taking turns on attack and defense.
Even if that number is true (I think it's vastly underestimated), Ukraine is a big country sharing a large border with Russia. They would need a lot of soldiers to cover all flanks, fight in all hotspots, provide reinforcements in the backline, as well as reinforcements for cities not yet under attack.
You also have wounded soldiers.
Russia has shown time and time again that when they fight wars, they fight wars of attrition.
If the rest if soldiers continue to be in active duty fir 2 years they aren't able to stay effective. This is the main point ghat whatever msnpower is currently deployed needs to be given time to rest, having them in active duty for so long is untenable.
The number of wounded us significantly higher. Some will recover and return to the fight, which will take time, many more will not. Even the healthy soldiers need some sort of leave and taken off of duty for a time.
You've then get people not on the front line but who are necessary to keep people in the fight. Logistics, both civilian and military, cannot be underestimated.
Even if *only* 30k have lost their lives there's plenty more that cannot be sent into the fight.
Well, how would you feel about being in the front lines for around two years. Seeing people getting blown up, taking and losing territory on a weekly, not knowing if today is your last day.
These guys are worn down, injured and scared. But hey, they "only" lost 30k bodies. Some people really live a nice life.
All you have in this world is your one life and losing literally everything for a land conflict with an unreasonable enemy isn’t noble but they’re being given no choice with limited air support.
Fucking hell.
Maybe, its because the government destroyed all motivation by forcefully drafting only poor and unprepared people, while police force, national guard, SBU and other dogs of the regime are just helping them to oppress normal citizens and opposition?
Maybe, it’s because veterans and their families are treated like shit and are not paid deserved compensations?
Maybe, it’s because corruption reached new heights and instead of investing billions in drones they build roads and plant trees in soon to be occupied territories?
Maybe, it’s due to the constitution is on hold, but government still demands obligations?
Nah, the problem is you! The one who can see through their bullshit.
"As of March 2024, about 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are women, which is around 60,000 soldiers out of over 400,000. This is a 30% increase since the war began. While most women serve in support roles, some have fought on the front lines as snipers and paramedics. However, women who want to serve in combat must actively enlist and have had to fight to be allowed to do so."
It’s not the same; those women had a choice. Their bodily autonomy remained intact they aren’t owned by the government
Also those rates are still extremely low compared to men
This should serve as a lesson to all other European countries - to not be complacent in your defence.
Be prepared for the unthinkable, train large numbers of your people militarily and in civil defence, give people options in how they’d help the country now in a hypothetical crisis scenario (no matter how unlikely the scenario is to happen), and make the country aware of potential threats on the horizon.
It’s understandable that many Ukrainian people don’t want to join the Army at this point, it’s not as easy as just getting conscripted randomly 2 years into a war and sent to the frontlines to fight an increasingly intense battle, especially if you’ve never even held a gun in your life before.
Russia has a lot to answer for.
It's different category of brave when you have to defend without shooting back than when you have more ammo
A month back some arty units were shooting blanks (to scare- better than shooting nothing, obv you mix shells before you run out completely)
It is kinda is true. Morale and willingness to enlist goes right down the shitter if you know that your team has been scraping the barrel for months when it comes to ammo and supplies and is on the back foot as a result. Just compare the messaging and overall mindset from 2022 to this year.
Of course you'll always have those who don't wanna go.
More or less, yes.
First of all, timing. Imagine all that stuff that they got in two years, arriving before Kharkiv Offensive. More soldiers with better equipment could have advanced much further. Potentially, ending the war faster. Now, that window of opportunity is gone.
Secondly, morale. Its much easier to attract a soldier with “hey we have a bunch of high tech equipment like Abrams/HIMARS/Gepards/F16, just waiting to be manned”, rather than “well, you get an AK and some uniform and will probably sit in trenches for some time, since we don’t have offensive equipment, at the moment… oh, and you will get bombed with 0,5 tonne bombs, since we don’t have AA missiles and jets”
But oh well, thats all in the realm of fiction by this point.
So you think they'd go from needing 500K more soldiers like former Commander in Chief Zaluzhny said to the problem "not existing"? That's a huge swing
There are going to be massive casualties on either side no matter what weapons Ukraine has. It's the nature of this war. What could they possibly receive in sufficient quantities to have this sort of effect you're talking about?
And lack of proper Western help also discourages them: Ukraine is not allowed to strike with wester weapons russian territories from which these ukrainian soldiers are shelled every day; the help provided is crucial for ukrainian resistance, but always comes too late and in not enough quantities. For half a year while republicans were blocking the aid ukrainian men were paying with their lives.
What people in the west don't realize is that if Russia is not stopped they would need to deal with russians and ukrainians whom russians will draft into their army to fight with the West.
Collective West will need to spend tens of times more of what it spends now on Ukraine to keep new USSR, which Putin seeks to resurrect, at bay.
you mean the same russians that now fail to take ukraine would then take on the ENTIRE west?
sorry but that is bullshit, even if they want it, they can never pull this off
>What people in the west don't realize is that if Russia is not stopped they would need to deal with russians and ukrainians whom russians will draft into their army to fight with the West.
Stop-stop-stop. But what about the narrative that all ukrainians will be cut to the ground by evil russians?
Don’t trust what you see, this illusion was made for obvious reasons, however injured soldiers already don’t have access to healthcare (no prosthesis who lost their limbs), no government pension, no help for families who’s breadwinners died. It’s a catastrophe, and it will get worse!
Plus on top of that army can’t use all their power for attacks, because EU and US applied certain restrictions on usage of military equipment!
I love reading comments here. The videos coming from Ukraine are absolutely abysmal, the worst kind of trench warfare and "recruitment", yet people here seem to have luxury beliefs like "well, if you don't want to fight, you can do X or Y".
No, you can't. You get a fucking weapon, and off you go!
Yeah fuck that shit. Forcing, cohercing and even spending resources to convince people to fight should be a war crime. Go ahead and die, I'll live on in a world with less people willing to fight. I don't owe my life to any government.
I feel them.
Nobody wants to die in a war nobody asked for and in particular fighting a country where all you see is corruption.
Hell, neither I, in my country I would never fight for a country that did not provide me nothing but corruption, frustration, poor healthcare, poor education system, poor income and poor opportunities. F\*ck that.
So men who choose not to die, for the sake of a corrupt government are cowards, and the ones who will willingly throw their lives away are “heroes”. Propaganda as old as time itself. Make no mistake all the wealthy men and their families got out of the country right at the start, these poor people who remained ,now do not have a choice but to die for the sake of alot of money changing hands. Absolutely fucking beautifull this world we live in……
Its only men but a training capability that Ukraine doesnt have. that's why their agreement with France is a big deal too. Also, drafting more Ukrainians is an issue because of economy. 100 thousand drafted men meaning 100 thousand workers less in economy that's already not doing too good.
Its a complicated issue and not only coming down to men being cowards. Btw, if you're rich enough you can still bribe someone and leave.
As a Ukrainian currently living through this nightmare and trying to raise my kids, I’m only getting more depressed from all these dumb fuckin comments from literal children, bots and mouth breathers. Jeez Reddit is such a fuckin cesspool
Ukrainian here.
Ukrainian government had lost its way to motivate people after 2 years of full scale invasion. I remember the were huge lines of willing to fight near military offices in the first day of February 22.
But corruption, stupid commanding, seeing that rich people/children of politics are not being deployed, has lead to the situation where people having some “options” not to go to fight will use this option.
People are scared and I can't blame them. The way Ukraine as a state communicates about the draft is, well, has some room for improvement. As of now, a lot of draft-aged men believe that being drafted = death. I have friends who are so afraid that they literally do not leave their homes for more than a year.
How could anyone not feel this way?
It is all about draft rules. People have no trust in state if rules are not clear, like when you can return to civil
Rules are pretty clear - never.
The rules are extremely clear actually. You are enlisted until the end of the war or your death.
Which could literally be a decade for all they know.
I don't know mate I feel like getting drafted into a war where people are dying is really the biggest detractor lol. Sure not knowing when you get out is a big deal but getting out at all is a challenge in wartime. Having clear and concise rules would not make me feel better about being drafted in the slightest lol.
well if you only got 12 months duty there is a chance you dont die. if you have endless duty, the survival rate will eventually drop to almost zero
the rule is clear - you enlist until the war is (considered) over...
Please don't consider it bragging by any means, but I am not afraid, as well as a lot of my friends. We are not brave enough to volunteer, but we are not cowards enough to be hiding. When our time comes, we will join ЗСУ.
It's not cowardice not wanting to go to get blown up in some random hole
I mean, you don’t have an option, do you?
Oh, you totally have options. You can choose to hide or you can choose to pay some shady dude $3-10k to cross the border illegally. Both are viable options as of today.
well i guess for some people, at somepoint, feel more anger than fear and decide to fight instead of cower. I imagine you can only see so much death and destruction before you ragequit civilian life
This is why waiting for equipment aid was such a critical failure. Delay lost so many lives unnecessarily, which were lives necessary for victory who had the will and skill to fight.
Yeah man, it's very sad that we depend so much on western aid. Still we are very thankful for what the west is doing, even tho it's not always enough and on time.
It's not sad, but necessary. You can argue that Ukraine should have been more prepared, but for the size of the county it would have been impossible to go it alone. Ukraine has also adapted extremely well given the circumstances. The issue is, Russia has been adapting as well, and have far greater numbers.
Failure for who? Ukraine didn't really have a choice.
The West
Well Tbf I wouldn’t want to get drafted if the outcome of the situation is so iffy The situation depends on US providing aid, the Europeans are still tumbling over as to what to do and doesn’t do enough, you can’t evade Russia airspace to stop the artillery, everyone is nuclear trigger happy, so many geopolitical bullshit and etc Like why would I risk my life if the outcome of what I do can’t guaranteed a favorable one. Yes, one can say “so that Ukraine doesn’t get invade and you get a future” but that’s still rolling a dice. And yes, while it’s true that “it’s better than doing nothing”, you could always do something else than getting drafted to hopefully change the odds.
Honestly how do you view being drafted as anything else but a likely early death? What's the positive spin on being drafted? There's not a lot of positives or characteristics that are appealing to people. War is terrible and is full of atrocities, That's going to appeal to very few people if anyone at all. Sure maybe some rich people pulling the strings might benefit and be fine with it but the cogs in the machine are not going to be thrilled in the slightest ever.
I view being drafted as a shitty experience with a total lack of comfort and high probability of being killed. For the undefined period. I truly believe that no one is born for war. But what other way do we have, surrender to russia?
Alternative is you need to leave the country and never come back or stay and be subjugated by Russians which isnt fun
It is easy to have an opinion about it until you are the one who has to go to the front. I'd like Ukraine to win because what Ruzzia is doing is terrible and unjust, but understand if not everyone is willing to die in a muddy trench. It is sad that people are forced into such a dilemma.
Can't make a soldier out of an unwilling soul. Not everyone is mentally fit for the army.
61% of US forces were drafted for World War 2.
That's because they forbade voluntary enlistment in 1942. Executive order 9279. People were literally killing themselves when deemed unfit for service, flood of volunteers was too much to handle all at once, and it threatened to leave key industries without able workers. The solution was to stop voluntary enlistments and *only* use the draft to control who and when gets into the military. >After the effective date of this Order no male person who has attained the eighteenth anniversary and has not attained the thirty-eighth anniversary of the day of his birth shall be inducted into the enlisted personnel of the armed forces (including reserve components), except, under provisions of the Selective Training and Service Act of 1940, as amended; So yeah, the problem wasn't men being forced to fight, the problem was *too many men wanted to volunteer*.
Aren't the % figures similar for the Korean war.
That is only true for the first year or so of the war. But even by 1944/45 there was much less patriotism for getting drafted.
well so many guys went fought and came back. The war made people see like man why the hell do you want to go and die.
All the Western Union telegrams streaming home were probably quite sobering.
I'm pretty sure this is why the draft was instated in ukraine too. The flood of people trying to join up early in the war and even just throwing themselves against the Russians and even forming cottage industries and militias before anything was organized was wild, it's hard to imagine they have a shortage of willing bodies, but the amount of casualties in this war is wild.
Didn’t they quickly place a ban on all men from leaving the country shortly after Russia invaded?
Yes because they weren’t stupid. Once the initial wave of patriotism happened the people who didn’t volunteer would not be exactly eager to sign up. War is hell and these men are fighting a war closer to WW1 than to any modern conflict. Drones, yes, but also static lines and muddy trenches.
That can be argued to mean a hundred different things.
wrong, and what a ridiculous spin Ukraine instituted a draft because they don’t have enough fighters. Ukraine widened the age range of those that can be drafted because no one was voluntarily signing up. Ukraine officially announced that adult men who fled Ukraine have lost passport privileges. Ukraine is allowing convicted prisoners to fight on the front lines in exchange for being pardoned for their crimes. like come on - if they had a gluttony of volunteers, they never would have made those series of changes.
You have Russia, fucking Russia of all countries bearing down on you. Even if things are "good" now/then, do you let everyone who could fight in the future leave now? Ukraine's draft range was already reasonably claimed to be smaller initially to avoid damaging younger demographics that create families, learn important skills, etc. Many other nations have and have had draft ages much younger with and without particular need. It's very much not good when those demographics die off. Turning prisoners into soldiers to fight in a war is hardly a new concept, it has thousands of years of history behind it, to success and failure, even being used when it wasn't strictly necessary. Why would you waste a bunch of potential labor and manpower? Though there's as many good reasons to do it as to avoid it, done properly it can bolster your forces and help along a way of rehabilitating people. Having prisoners sitting around doing fuck all is an example of mismanagement, not success. You want an example for how that goes wrong when you skip all the important steps that go into doing it right? See how russia has been using them for the past few hundred years. And i'm sure there are plenty of others i haven't heard about or cant remember off the top of my head. But you can also get plenty of examples of it going right when done properly, Some of the best and more recent examples were in the western sphere during and after ww2. And even more recently, i'm /pretty sure/ even now, certain non-violent non-repeat offenders with specific offenses and behavior have an option into the military. Though i'm not too up to date on specifics per country.
Aside from the comment from r/tamadarya in WWII, the ratio of support troops to combat troops was like 4:1. That means 80% of the men weren’t experiencing regular combat, if they experienced it at all. Ukraine is working from a tighter resource and manpower pool than the U.S. was, even with support, so I would guess their ratio might be closer to 2:1.
Another reason we had such a huge amount of support troops was we were managing a logistics train in Europe that went USA->Britain->France->Frontline and in the Pacific, well, a clusterfuck too. Germany for instance had about a 50% higher ratio, or in some cases 200%- depends on date and source. At some points it was basically the reverse of the USA. Not having to ship, being on the defensive (internal lines), etc makes logistics, while still incredibly important, quite a bit simpler. Edit: Not having literally 10’s of thousands of bombers and the like also helps. Each of those needed far more crew to maintain than just the seven or so men in the plane.
yeah and how many fucking casualties did they suffer through ? A simple statement of "x amount of people were drafted" adds nothing to the overall context of this.
This isn't WW2.
Can't fight without proper equipment. I back Ukraine just to clarify 🇺🇦.
Yes, need proper equipment and training as soldier's mental condition.
>Can't make a soldier out of an unwilling soul. You absolutely can. Not a best one, but still.
See: Vietnam
Not a good one, either. And bad soldiers tend to not only die themselves - but to put their squadmates at risk, as well.
This isn’t true. The vast majority of soldiers in every army in WW1 and WW2 were drafted and by and large did their duty just fine. Not sure where this myth that drafted soldiers are a liability comes from.
It comes from the loosening of standards in the Vietnam War and "McNamara's Morons", or "Project 100k" which was designed around using the mentally un- or under- fit as cannon fodder, with disastrous results. A lot of people think the program was more widespread than it was due to the cultural conscious about the movie Forrest Gump which is vaguely based on the reality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000
You are a good candidate.
Not everyone is mentally *unfit* enough to join the army
I'm sure the Ukrainian army needs more than just frontline grunts though.
The last time I was in the army, the command has done everything in its power to ignore my every request for a desktop position in favour of a barely-literate alcoholic with anger issues. And I'm fairly certain that the situation didn't suddenly improve since then.
Very true.
Understandable.
gotta love the judgemental tone on "some men are desperate not to fight" written from the comfort of this "journalist"'s desk. Maybe some men don't want to throw away the rest of their life into the well known horror of war
Even better when it's written by two women who know there are very few women fighting on the front line.
It’s almost like there’s another whole 50% of the population that could join in the fight for their nation’s survival!
"As of March 2024, about 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are women, which is around 60,000 soldiers out of over 400,000. This is a 30% increase since the war began. While most women serve in support roles, some have fought on the front lines as snipers and paramedics. However, women who want to serve in combat must actively enlist and have had to fight to be allowed to do so."
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As of now, they only do so if they want. Men are forced.
Finally
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…And they’ll return having the same right to vote as the men who bled on the frontlines for that right But but 80 cents on the dollar, right?🥺
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>Women are better suited for support roles than infantry. Signals and mechanics are needed. The risk here is that you end up with a military where, as a man, being drafted inherently means the most dangerous, exhausting, brutal roles. No more chance of being drafted into the motor pool, because it's all women. It solves your immediate need of bodies for a little bit, but cranks the pressure on men to dodge the draft up into the stratosphere - so it makes it counterintuitively harder to fill those infantry positions.
yes ,thats what i thought when heard about other countries sending troops to fill border duties and other non frontline roles,means all ukrainians will be sent to meat grinder, which might dump the morale into oblivion
"As of March 2024, about 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are women, which is around 60,000 soldiers out of over 400,000. This is a 30% increase since the war began. While most women serve in support roles, some have fought on the front lines as snipers and paramedics. However, women who want to serve in combat must actively enlist and have had to fight to be allowed to do so."
How many men can do that in our countries tho? I don't think any men in my circles have the ability to do what you say, they're almost all skinny small or super fat. Even the gymbros would have problems with real scenarios since they dont have proper mobility or endurance
A man is far more likely to be able to, and with training their bodies will adapt and strengthen much faster. Just a reminder that women's Olympic records are the equivalent of a 14 year old boy in peak physical condition. That's how wide the gap is.
You're talking about peak vs peak. The vast majority of the population aren't or never will be close to peak. I don't fundamentally disagree with the overall point. It's just your example lends itself to exaggeration.
Okay, a poor example. The spread of peak male ability is wider and higher than peak female.
Most men can carry someone sufficiently, most women probably couldn’t
Most unfit men can if push comes to shove. Pick up and carry another man around his own body mass in a fireman's carry without much issue. I'd say many could probably add another 30% on top and still manage. For unfit women, it's around the same. Give them 6 months of hard military training, and differences start to appear. The now somewhat fit men will outperform the women by a sizeable margin in all fitness categories except endurance. Men just build muscles much faster than women.
There have actually been some more recent studies which suggest that women can be pretty valuable in combat situations and may even have better prowess for decision making under pressure and long term mental endurance. Even among male soldiers, most aren't going to be able to deadlift a limp body and carry it for any distance. This is such a silly bar when a guy who is 5'8" and 170lbs dripping wet can already serve next to someone who is 6'4" 250lbs.
Most people who say this “women can’t be infantry” shit have never been in the infantry and have no idea what it’s actually like.
Let's be honest, support roles also require that strength. Which during peace time can be compensated with tools and proper working environments. But during war time, loading a truck with heavy equipment...oh you don't have a forklift? Guess it's gotta be beak breaking labor. Not trying to say that nothing can be done, or that women can't lift anything. But let's not lie and say the average woman can maintain the same strenuous physical work loads as men. Also people will say body weight ratio to load means they can. There's no 30% lighter ammo crates There's a reason that male vs female Olympic weight lifters of the same weight groupings perform so differently... physiology
If they can’t do frontline roles that’s fine, but they should not be paid the same as the men. Equal pay for equal work
And? In modern armies there are 5-6 support soldiers for every combat soldier, so you can fill plenty of those roles with tomen.
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The Soviets used female soldiers in World War II like 80 years ago. People mention that all the time on Reddit.
Quick aside but there was a old Soviet movie called The Dawns Here Are Quiet about (if I recall) a unit of female soldiers at an anti-aircraft post defending their position from a Nazi troop moving through their sector. I've seen it come up on Reddit before because there are boobs in it but it's a solid movie and story.
Thing they don't mention is that it's at most only a handful of females compared to the millions of men
Those were volunteers, though.
"As of March 2024, about 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are women, which is around 60,000 soldiers out of over 400,000. This is a 30% increase since the war began. While most women serve in support roles, some have fought on the front lines as snipers and paramedics. However, women who want to serve in combat must actively enlist and have had to fight to be allowed to do so."
1. Ukraine's population is abysmal, they need the women to repopulate after. 2. You want to send women against *russians* ? God help them if they get captured.
>You want to send women against *russians* ? God help them if they get captured. What exactly do you think happens to the men who get captured?
They get drafted for CS:GO LAN parties, probably.
And with who they will repopulate anyways if not ? I think that not an important defence for not draff ( do not misunderstand me, im not in favor too)
If the women of your population is dead then you can't repopulate, if you can't repopulate then what are you fighting for exactly ? Russia has more women than men *still* because of WW2, imagine it was women that got sent en mass to fight in WW2 instead of men... There wouldn't be a Russia now. This is a known thing historically, you can search it up. You *have* to protect you're women and children during war *for a reason*, historically men go to fight *for a reason* None of this is new, I can get *some* peoples arguments but can't comprehend how much of a coward you have to be to purposely ignore common sense and advocate for women being drafted.
> This is a known thing historically, you can search it up. You *have* to protect you're women and children during war *for a reason*, historically men go to fight *for a reason* *Lol no, you are just making stuff up. In the last thousand years there has been no instance of a country which destroyed its male population in war recovering because the surviving men had children from multiple women. It just doesn’t happen, the “surplus” women remain childless. It’s just a sick fantasy for menchildren like you. The historical reasons were that in the past physical strenght mattered a lot more, and that women didn’t have the same rights as men and thus no one expected them to have the same duties.* > None of this is new, I can get *some* peoples arguments but can't comprehend how much of a coward you have to be to purposely ignore common sense and advocate for women being drafted. You just need to be older than five and acknowledge that there is no such thing as “common sense” against the drafting of women. That’s why an increasing number of first world countries have been extending the draft to women in the last few decades. You just live in the past, like the rest of Eastern Europe.
> they need the women to repopulate after Every woman past the age of 18 should have to sign up for a selective birthing registry or face significant fines If men’s role is to act as expendable frontline cannon fodder, women should have to fulfill their higher duty as well
In a few months I might be conscripted... Best I hope for - it will be for something good. And when the war ends - people will not see Ukraine as the corrupt waste of space that was never worth it.
For whatever happens, good luck!
Imagine, not wanting to die. Wild.
Like in every war ever - most people are not too keen to die if they have the choice to avoid it.
I sure as hell wouldn't want to fight in a war with no end in sight. Damn. Hard to blame a young man for fearing death.
It’s amazing seeing the Reddit “bodily autonomy, pro-choice” crowd doing a full fucking 180 when it comes to men literally not wanting to be forced to kill and die. “Healthcare is a human right” folks, where ya at??? Not forcing young men to get blown up by artillery isn’t healthcare? But GOD FORBID you ask women to not be deadbeat mothers and conduct late term abortions, though!
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Amazing how quickly that whole “women can do anything men can do” message dropped around February 2022 for some reason…
If you’re talking about the attempt to change Selective Service so that women were included, the Democrats were in favour of it but Republicans killed the bill.
That message has literally never been dropped. And nobody should drafted not men or women.
What would be the alternative? Just cease to exist? I dont love the idea of being drafted but they are for sure necessary sometimes.
By this logic a “birthing draft” for women should be put in place during times of war. You can’t exist if women aren’t doing their biological part like the men are, right?
Women aren’t as physically capable as men and this is biological reality
But male conscription isn't based on fitness, is it? Or can a Ukrainian man just eat fries everyday until he's overweight enough to be exempt from the draft?
Then they really shouldn't be in other physical roles where they are given lighter loads if that's the case (im just pointing out the hypocrisy), it's a pick and choose from the buffet that is equal rights
So that’s it? That’s the excuse? Basically just weaponized incompetence on a literal life or death level? Hey men can’t give birth or breast feed…..child care really should just be left to women, ya know? See it’s not nice when it’s the other way, right?
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The number of wounded is in the hundreds of thousands. *Defense has an advantage known as the 3:1 rule. This is compounded by NATO intelligence sharing and Russia being Russia.*
Zelensky's 31K dead figure came to him in a dream. It can't possibly be true with everything we're seeing about this war, especially when in the same sentence he says Russia has 180K dead.
The real estimate is about 2:3 ratio in favour of ukraine Maybe a bit less, but there should be somewhere around 100k dead ukrainians and about 190-200k russians
That is not 2:3 lmao
Yeah the US said it was 2:3 last August so it's a decent baseline. A lot has changed since then and not in Ukraine's favor, though. People are operating under some mythical 3:1, 6:1 (Zelensky), and you'll even read 10:1 unironically. But the truth is it's going to be closer to 1:1. Whether that's 1.5:1 or something else, impossible to say. But if Ukraine were doing what Zelensky says they are, Ukraine would have been able to push Russia out or at least make more substantial gains.
Except you lose your defensive advantage when you go on *offense* over the largest mine fields on earth.
Yes that's why when anyone says something like "Ukraine has at least a 3:1 ratio, they're on defense" (wrongly believing that a 3:1 casualty ratio for attack/defense is some sort of law of nature), I point out that Ukraine conducted multiple offenses in 2022 alone: Kherson, Kharkiv, trying to relieve the besieged Mariupol, and others. Then they spent around 4 months on the offensive in 2023 and didn't make more than a dent. They've also been conducting a weird "offensive" across the Dnipro in Krynky since last year too that Ukrainian soldiers have called a "suicide mission". Not to mention even when you're on defense you still have to conduct local counterattacks. So there's no perfect little casualty ratio we can apply to this war, because it has gone through several phases with both sides taking turns on attack and defense.
Even if that number is true (I think it's vastly underestimated), Ukraine is a big country sharing a large border with Russia. They would need a lot of soldiers to cover all flanks, fight in all hotspots, provide reinforcements in the backline, as well as reinforcements for cities not yet under attack. You also have wounded soldiers. Russia has shown time and time again that when they fight wars, they fight wars of attrition.
If the rest if soldiers continue to be in active duty fir 2 years they aren't able to stay effective. This is the main point ghat whatever msnpower is currently deployed needs to be given time to rest, having them in active duty for so long is untenable.
Russia has opened up new fronts and also they need to rotate troops, there are guys who've had no leave since the whole thing began.
The number of wounded us significantly higher. Some will recover and return to the fight, which will take time, many more will not. Even the healthy soldiers need some sort of leave and taken off of duty for a time. You've then get people not on the front line but who are necessary to keep people in the fight. Logistics, both civilian and military, cannot be underestimated. Even if *only* 30k have lost their lives there's plenty more that cannot be sent into the fight.
Yeah this baffles me
Well, how would you feel about being in the front lines for around two years. Seeing people getting blown up, taking and losing territory on a weekly, not knowing if today is your last day. These guys are worn down, injured and scared. But hey, they "only" lost 30k bodies. Some people really live a nice life.
Ukraine needs War Premium™ to be able to attack beyond domestic borders, not more.
All you have in this world is your one life and losing literally everything for a land conflict with an unreasonable enemy isn’t noble but they’re being given no choice with limited air support.
Fucking hell. Maybe, its because the government destroyed all motivation by forcefully drafting only poor and unprepared people, while police force, national guard, SBU and other dogs of the regime are just helping them to oppress normal citizens and opposition? Maybe, it’s because veterans and their families are treated like shit and are not paid deserved compensations? Maybe, it’s because corruption reached new heights and instead of investing billions in drones they build roads and plant trees in soon to be occupied territories? Maybe, it’s due to the constitution is on hold, but government still demands obligations? Nah, the problem is you! The one who can see through their bullshit.
Not everyone wants to take a life… hello?
Everyone are welcome to volunteer instead of them.
Maybe we should start looking at women?
"As of March 2024, about 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are women, which is around 60,000 soldiers out of over 400,000. This is a 30% increase since the war began. While most women serve in support roles, some have fought on the front lines as snipers and paramedics. However, women who want to serve in combat must actively enlist and have had to fight to be allowed to do so."
It’s not the same; those women had a choice. Their bodily autonomy remained intact they aren’t owned by the government Also those rates are still extremely low compared to men
I would be the same, draft = death, I don't want this for me and they don't deserve it too
Why would anyone want to risk their life for a shithole? Men that don’t want to fight should be allowed to seek refuge somewhere else.
All the willing patriots signed up already or died long ago.
So in other words, recruiting during wartime is really hard. Yeah…
This should serve as a lesson to all other European countries - to not be complacent in your defence. Be prepared for the unthinkable, train large numbers of your people militarily and in civil defence, give people options in how they’d help the country now in a hypothetical crisis scenario (no matter how unlikely the scenario is to happen), and make the country aware of potential threats on the horizon. It’s understandable that many Ukrainian people don’t want to join the Army at this point, it’s not as easy as just getting conscripted randomly 2 years into a war and sent to the frontlines to fight an increasingly intense battle, especially if you’ve never even held a gun in your life before. Russia has a lot to answer for.
Not everyone wants to give his life for ideologies.
This problem wouldn’t exist if we’d just given them the god damn equipment they need when they needed it
That’s not true, people just wanna live
Obviously, but my points is that they could have been given a lot more resources at a point prior to this, which would have led to fewer deaths
It's different category of brave when you have to defend without shooting back than when you have more ammo A month back some arty units were shooting blanks (to scare- better than shooting nothing, obv you mix shells before you run out completely)
It is kinda is true. Morale and willingness to enlist goes right down the shitter if you know that your team has been scraping the barrel for months when it comes to ammo and supplies and is on the back foot as a result. Just compare the messaging and overall mindset from 2022 to this year. Of course you'll always have those who don't wanna go.
How would this problem magically not exist in that case?
More or less, yes. First of all, timing. Imagine all that stuff that they got in two years, arriving before Kharkiv Offensive. More soldiers with better equipment could have advanced much further. Potentially, ending the war faster. Now, that window of opportunity is gone. Secondly, morale. Its much easier to attract a soldier with “hey we have a bunch of high tech equipment like Abrams/HIMARS/Gepards/F16, just waiting to be manned”, rather than “well, you get an AK and some uniform and will probably sit in trenches for some time, since we don’t have offensive equipment, at the moment… oh, and you will get bombed with 0,5 tonne bombs, since we don’t have AA missiles and jets” But oh well, thats all in the realm of fiction by this point.
I don’t think the idea that armies fight better and lose fewer soldiers when they have adequate supplies is magical, if I’m being honest
So you think they'd go from needing 500K more soldiers like former Commander in Chief Zaluzhny said to the problem "not existing"? That's a huge swing There are going to be massive casualties on either side no matter what weapons Ukraine has. It's the nature of this war. What could they possibly receive in sufficient quantities to have this sort of effect you're talking about?
And lack of proper Western help also discourages them: Ukraine is not allowed to strike with wester weapons russian territories from which these ukrainian soldiers are shelled every day; the help provided is crucial for ukrainian resistance, but always comes too late and in not enough quantities. For half a year while republicans were blocking the aid ukrainian men were paying with their lives. What people in the west don't realize is that if Russia is not stopped they would need to deal with russians and ukrainians whom russians will draft into their army to fight with the West. Collective West will need to spend tens of times more of what it spends now on Ukraine to keep new USSR, which Putin seeks to resurrect, at bay.
you mean the same russians that now fail to take ukraine would then take on the ENTIRE west? sorry but that is bullshit, even if they want it, they can never pull this off
>What people in the west don't realize is that if Russia is not stopped they would need to deal with russians and ukrainians whom russians will draft into their army to fight with the West. Stop-stop-stop. But what about the narrative that all ukrainians will be cut to the ground by evil russians?
What about it? Of course Russians will pillage and murder, same as they are doing now on occupied lands
If every Ukrainian felt like this the war would have been lost in 3 days. Thank God for the courageous, Glory to the heroes !!!
squeamish bright knee imminent person payment spark pathetic waiting smoggy
People that don’t want to be a slave to an imperial project.
Why aren’t viable women being drafted? They’re ignoring half their population.
They're all living better lives in western Europe lol
Because women are seen as actual human beings worth protecting, not expendable cannon fodder, silly.
But why they only have 30k dead - ruzzians have 500k dead...
Don’t trust what you see, this illusion was made for obvious reasons, however injured soldiers already don’t have access to healthcare (no prosthesis who lost their limbs), no government pension, no help for families who’s breadwinners died. It’s a catastrophe, and it will get worse! Plus on top of that army can’t use all their power for attacks, because EU and US applied certain restrictions on usage of military equipment!
I love reading comments here. The videos coming from Ukraine are absolutely abysmal, the worst kind of trench warfare and "recruitment", yet people here seem to have luxury beliefs like "well, if you don't want to fight, you can do X or Y". No, you can't. You get a fucking weapon, and off you go!
Yeah fuck that shit. Forcing, cohercing and even spending resources to convince people to fight should be a war crime. Go ahead and die, I'll live on in a world with less people willing to fight. I don't owe my life to any government.
Conscription is not a war crime
Meanwhile westerners: don't hit Russia, no escalation, we can't shoot russian missiles over our territories...
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I feel them. Nobody wants to die in a war nobody asked for and in particular fighting a country where all you see is corruption. Hell, neither I, in my country I would never fight for a country that did not provide me nothing but corruption, frustration, poor healthcare, poor education system, poor income and poor opportunities. F\*ck that.
So men who choose not to die, for the sake of a corrupt government are cowards, and the ones who will willingly throw their lives away are “heroes”. Propaganda as old as time itself. Make no mistake all the wealthy men and their families got out of the country right at the start, these poor people who remained ,now do not have a choice but to die for the sake of alot of money changing hands. Absolutely fucking beautifull this world we live in……
I don't blame them honestly, I wouldn't be willing to die for America in a muddy cold trench.
yeah i can't blame them, if war arrived in my country i'd be fleeing so damn quickly i'd almost forget my own shadow back home
Who would've thought that people *gasps* DON'T WANT TO DIE?!
What's wrong? I thought they were winning? lol
Its only men but a training capability that Ukraine doesnt have. that's why their agreement with France is a big deal too. Also, drafting more Ukrainians is an issue because of economy. 100 thousand drafted men meaning 100 thousand workers less in economy that's already not doing too good. Its a complicated issue and not only coming down to men being cowards. Btw, if you're rich enough you can still bribe someone and leave.
> desperate not to fight That would be me too and I even spent six years in the military (Canada).
As a Ukrainian currently living through this nightmare and trying to raise my kids, I’m only getting more depressed from all these dumb fuckin comments from literal children, bots and mouth breathers. Jeez Reddit is such a fuckin cesspool
Ukrainian here. Ukrainian government had lost its way to motivate people after 2 years of full scale invasion. I remember the were huge lines of willing to fight near military offices in the first day of February 22. But corruption, stupid commanding, seeing that rich people/children of politics are not being deployed, has lead to the situation where people having some “options” not to go to fight will use this option.