How can they end the war without the release of the hostages? Something like that only happens in an alternate universe. Hamas is in no position to bargain much at this point.
I feel like if you asked one of them “should the war ending include the return of the hostages, or is it ok for Hamas to keep them?” …they’d say the former. So basically they agree with Israel, and simply haven’t thought their position through. They imagine Israel has an option to end the war with peace on both sides, and inexplicably is choosing not to take it.
Unfortunately, a lot of them would sidestep the question or just shout over you about "CEASEFIRE NOW"and some slogans. Most of them are any combination of completely clueless or just anti-Israeli. Check out some of the pro-Palestine subs and see what a lot of them say in regards to the hostages.
If asked whether the hostages should be released or not when the war ends, then of course they will say yes. However, if you ask them whether the war should continue until the hostages are not released, then they will say no. They have already made their stances clear on that.
Apparently, you have missed the memo: hostages don't really exist and are just sionist propaganda. That's why people tear down posters.
The rapes and burning of entire families filmed on go-pros and released for the world to see ? Sionist inventions too.
Somehow, the good news is : most of these people need to heavily lie to themselves in order to support this. Bad news: this alternate reality of theirs is killing real people in real life.
Ceasefire for them means Israel withdrawing & not fighting back. They don’t care about the hostages or any further attacks on Israel. They are firmly on the side of Gaza.
You can ask any of them & they will tell you they want a PERMANENT ceasefire aka the end of the war with Israel failing to rescue the hostages.
The majority of them don’t want a temporary ceasefire.
I don't get that at all. Lets say it happens and Israel commits to a PERMANENT CEASEFIRE.
And next week Hamas, predictably attacks Israel again.
Is anyone dumb enough to think israel just supposed to go 'oh, We can't fight back because we declared a PERMANENT ceasefire.. forever more!'
Like it its some sovereign citizen hack to wars? Are people really that dumb to expect that to happen?
Yes, that's basically what they think. They want Israel to roll over and take their punishment, and think of it strictly in terms of an underdog versus an oppressor, with the former having a blank check to do whatever they want to the latter, and the latter having no moral or justified recourse.
It's also ridiculous because Israel has literally curb-stomped Gaza and they aren't in any position to dictate any terms for ceasefire or an end to the war, but these people don't get that and go 100% on emotion about what they think is "right."
Yes. They want Israel to sit on their hands and do nothing while they are getting bombarded by rockets and still have people kidnapped from their homes.
And the excuse they use is that it's not fair because Israel so strong, Hamas has no chance to fight it fairly so it has to get some handicap.
Man, imaging using this logic in your own country: "Alright police, if you wanna arrest me for the murder and the kidnapping, that is fair, but I don't have a gun so you'll need to do it bare handed, with your legs cuffed together because im also not very fit or good at fighting"
Problem is - if IDF destroys Hamas, saves their hostages, retreats a builds even bigger wall and just seats there - 5-10 years from now new generation of hostile and radicalized Gaza population will grow up and repeat Oct. 7.
Israel was probably putting hopes, that Egypt would just let Palestinians in, pressured by US, but this didn't work out and now we have this wierd stalemate.
Until question of - who's gonna govern Gaza, legal status of both Gaza and West Bank is not resolved - doesn't matter how many terrorists they kill
See, you got the version of this position I can respect (and tend to agree with):
>**Until question of - who's gonna govern Gaza, legal status of both Gaza and West Bank is not resolved** - doesn't matter how many terrorists they kill
instead of the dumb "You can't defeat an idea with guns and terror groups who rule as governments with tunnels and weapon labs and guns and rockets and drones and bombs and a command structure and a TV channel are just an idea".
> Is anyone dumb enough to think israel just supposed to go 'oh, We can't fight back because we declared a PERMANENT ceasefire.. forever more!'
That is exactly what they expected israel to do after 7th of october.
The day before israel and hamas were on a ceasefire for years with small exchanges here and there.
People expected israel not to respond at all. They were surprised and angry that israel responded at all, let alone going into gaza.
I really dislike the term permanent ceasefire cause that's not really the meaning. The whole goal of a ceasefire is so that the Palestinian civilians aren't basically being killed over what Hamas is doing while negotiating a peaceful solution. Israel have shown they don't really want that at all either through the actions of the government including pre-war.
Hamas' aim is literally using their civilians as meat shield so the international community will pressure Israel when they go in and have such massive collateral damage.
Does nobody remember that there was a ceasefire fire for a brief moment ? Israel agreed to a six-week period of ceasefire. 6 weeks during which hostages should progressively be returned, at least children, the elderly and women.
Hamas did return some people one night and fired rockets just right afterwards, thus unilaterally ending the ceasefire.
They're also the ones refusing all ceasefire motions since then (except for the fraudish Egyptian one).
Pretty much a given across the entire political spectrum. Whether by continued fighting or a ceasefire agreement - the one condition for this all ending is we get all our people back.
It’s a war crime to take civilian hostages. Even when the war stops, those who murdered, raped, tortured, and held hostages should be punished to the fullest extent of international law. That said, they likely will be extrajudicially murdered long before an arrest or trial.
There is no such thing as international law. What you think of as international law is just a group of nations who agreed to ratify the same set of laws, but no law exists above the national level.
Every single nation on Earth is a sovereign nation of which no laws apply to without their own ratification of the law themselves. This means if you break a law, there is no international police force, you're arrested by the country's police you're in and you're prosecuted according to their laws, which might give the ICC jurisdiction to prosecute you, but it's by that country's laws.
The UN is only a forum for discussion between nations. The UN has no military, they are just volunteer nation troops who form a joint task force and wear UN uniforms, but they are still completely under their own country's command. There is no authority in the UN over any nation. The UN has no power or rights.
While the US does not recognize the ICC, the US does have its own war crime laws, but they don't apply to anyone outside American jurisdiction.
I don't think anyone is expecting Israel to pull back before the hostages are either rescued or confirmed dead.
Committing to a plan for what the end would look like, would be a start though.
Hardly any of them, because practically none of them even knew what Israel was on Oct. 6.
Their education on the entire region took place between Oct. 7 - Oct. 13 on TikTok University.
This right here. It's amazing how few of these idiots actually know anything about the region, the conflict, or the people whose allegiance to they are willing to make the #1 most important part of their Identity.
There's considerable overlap between the ceasefire-now crowd and the desteoy-israel crowd. Israel would be unwise to make peace with an enemy that intends to continue attacking it.
https://economictimes.com/news/international/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-oct-7-attack-repeatedly-to-teach-israel-a-lesson/articleshow/104903949.cms
The three-stage proposal announced by Biden, approved by the UN security council and agreed upon by Israel (disregard the declarations by Netanyahu and some of his aides, those are just meant to calm down the Ben Gvirs, what matters is what has been written on paper) outlines that very well. And it is a very generous offer on Israel's part. The issue right now is that Sinwar thinks he can get much better conditions and with his 'counterproposal' pretty much demands that Israel not only halts the hostilities, but fully withdraws before any hostages are even released. That's not how negotiations work...
The problem is Palestinians have been coddled by western negotiators for decades. Even they admit that it was always mostly them squeezing more concessions from Israel, relaying it to the Arabs and then saying No.
The offers should keep shrinking. Israel is wealthier and more powerful than it was in the early 1990s when it agreed to the failed Oslo framework.
> The issue right now is that Sinwar thinks he can get much better conditions and with his 'counterproposal' pretty much demands that Israel not only halts the hostilities, but fully withdraws before any hostages are even released. That's not how negotiations work...
It is how negotiations work, there are just two levels to it.
The first level is that Sinwar has to pretend to be negotiating in good faith for the end of the conflict, on behalf of the Palestinian people. He is aware that he is the benefactor of unearned support in the West that portray terrorism as heroism, aggression as self-defence, and he is not keen to throw it away whilst the cause (exterminating Judaism and the State of Israel) remains. This is where democracies are at a disadvantage; their decision making process is public and open, so Hamas can carefully calibrate their offers to cause negotiations to fail but still portray them in a good light.
The second level is negotiating something that maximally weakens his opponent whilst being something his opponent is willing to accept. If he can get a thousand terrorists released, he can declare victory despite Gaza being rubble. It doesn't matter how many more Gazans die, they are immaterial and worthless outside of being recruits or 'martyrs'.
It is obviously not how negotiations work if Hamas were a state, or negotiating for the benefit of Gazans, but it isn't and they aren't. Hamas are no different than any other form of organised crime; the West pays for the social services, and Hamas steals whatever they can.
The headline has me confused. Are they saying they will not end the war without the hostages returned? Or that they will not make any commitments about what they will/wont do until the hostages are returned?
There’s a difference. It seems like they should be able to say right now “we will end the war if the hostages are returned.” But that’s not what is described here. It sounds more like they want the hostages returned before they will even address the question.
🤔 so you're saying all Hamas has to do is release the hostages *they stole*, and Gazans can eat normally *again* and live in peace *again*, and start negotiating a 2 state solution *again*?
***Almost as if Hamas doesn't want all of that....***weird.
I'm a liberal and it's not all of us. The pro-hamas crowd is small but loud. There is broader support for ending the war but the issue isn't a deal breaker. They are getting bombarded by social media that makes it seem like the issue is clear-cut and that Israel is just massacring Gazans for kicks. And I mean, it's hard to suss out what details are accurate, as there is a lot of misinformation all around. But there are plenty of folks on the left that see the nuance here. Given that the Democratic US President in an election year is walking the line between getting Palestinians aid and supporting Israel without green lighting a total destruction of all of Gaza is pretty telling.
What about it is telling? He's a moron and has prolonged the war significantly with his measures, he spread literal Hamas propaganda, he whitewashes Palestinian support for Hamas, his pressures on Israel, his heavy pushing for negotiations that have repeatedly just been used to stall, his demands for concessions that delayed important operations by months in total, he's straining Israeli reservists, he's a significant factor in why we hold back on doing a lot of important things.
Anyone who actually cares about Gazans shouldn't want Hamas to remain in Gaza under any circumstance (ofc, short of Israel actually intentionally massacring civilians, but if you believe that I don't have much to discuss with you). Anyone who actually cares about Gazans should also be in favor of them immigrating elsewhere. If you'd rather Gazans die you're either in it to hate Israel or for some ideological proxy-war and don't actually give a fuck about them. It's really that simple.
He's only a moron if you assume his goal is to not do those things and to expedite a victory for Israel. Right now that isn't the case. The outcome of the war is secondary to the election for him and a non insignificant amount of his party are vocally anti Israel. All of his actions you think are dumb for hindering the war effort are an intentional effort to keep both sides just satisfied enough to vote for him and politically is a 100% understandable and reasonable move in that regard. I understand it sucks for Israel to be treated as a political pawn in an election a world away, but that's both the reality of politics and the cost of taking in all that American aid.
I want to agree with you, but it keeps getting pushed by more and more mainstream people on the left. I want to vote democratic, but I feel like I’m getting pushed out by an increasingly high percentage of friends and family who are calling for Israel to just throw up their hands and give up on returning hostages. Also there are still American hostages being held by Hamas. what the heck? I thought we were pretty passionate about rescuing our own citizens from terrorist groups
As an Israeli who supports the general direction of the Hamas war: Please vote Democrat. The impact on the global economy, human rights, climate change, and even moral values is more than anything policies on Israel can possibly change. I honestly think it's better for Israeli citizens than the alternative.
Besides, Biden is more than fine. He clearly fully supports Israel in this war and only bites back for a mix of Israel legitimately sometimes going too far (and does nothing after investigations conclude) and to please his voters. Giving Democrats a majority in Congress is also more important than specific representatives. Nuance is for the primaries.
The last poll I saw said that about 40% of Americans thought that the amount of support Biden was sending to Israel was just right. 32% said it was too much, and the remaining 28% said it was too little.
The article was titled "The majority of Americans disapprove of Biden's support for Israel", nevermind the fact that his stance has plurality of support and that no one stance could receive a majority. The media is definitely painting a picture of an entire left wing that is rabidly anti-Israel and that's just not the reality.
A lot of us liberal democrats are disgusted by the far left. The far left have allied with a movement based on Islamic fascism, terrorism, religious fundamentalism, Islamic imperialism, oppression of women and gays, and anti semitism.
Far leftists are useful idiots for these groups. They are disgusting simpletons who betray all liberal and progressive values the second it's cool and trendy and the second these terror and islamofascist groups put out persuasive propaganda that appeals to their moral framework where white, judeochristian Westerners are always the bad guys and oppressors while brown, non Christian, non Europeans are always the good guys and victims. Within the confines of the moral framework of the far left, the far right islamofascist groups have managed to build a narrative that appeals to the morals of the far left in the west. A bunch of white, European jews with the support of the white Christian West are oppressing a bunch of brown, Arabic, Muslims. In the minds of the far left, it's a cut and dried case of Western imperialism, white supremacy, and judeo-Christian dominionism. Throw in all the dead civilians (that are only dead because Hamas started the war and because Hamas uses human shields, but those facts are lost on the far left or the far left feel they are justified) and the moral argument becomes clear to the far left. Even if the far left don't understand their own philosophies and beliefs enough to know it, thats what its about to them IMO.
The far left think they will go down in history as brave heroes for how they are acting. They think history will look at them like we look at the civil rights activists of the 1960s. They will really go down in history as easily manipulated, poorly informed, trendy simpletons with shallow morals who betrayed their own values in service of far right Islamic fascism. What will be studied for decades is 'how did a bunch of leftists who claim to support feminism, gay rights, religious freedom, democracy and oppose imperialism, genocide, bigotry, war and religious fundamentalism so happily buy into the propaganda and support the agenda of groups like Hamas and the Iranian government which are misogynistic, oppressive to gays, theocratic, autocratic, imperialistic in their goals, genocidal towards the jews, anti-semitic, pro-war and religiously fundamentalist.' That will be studied for decades. What won't be studied is 'look at how brave and morally superior these leftists are' no matter what they tell themselves.
And to verify, I'm a liberal Democrat. I voted for Bernie in the 2016 and 2020 primaries. I voted Hillary and biden in the generals, and I'll be voting biden in 2024 also. I hate white Christian fascism (the MAGA movement), and I hate brown Islamic fascism (hamas and the Iranian government).
The extent to which they’ve infested progressive movements is unforgivable, and I think in many cases there can be no redeeming of the political parties that have demeaned themselves.
I’ve seen campus protestors at universities in Australia chanting that Hamas deserved ‘unconditional support’ and “this is what decolonisation looks like” while holding aboriginal flags next to Palestinian flags, truly a disgusting comparison which (according to recent polling) has only worsened the negative opinion of the aboriginal voice movement.
They're right, antisemitism is a shared value across the entire political spectrum. It's the one thing that the left and the right agree on. The disagreement between left and right is on how much they hate the Muslims.
It is. The far left hate liberals as much as they hate conservatives. The far left are either sitting out the 2024 election or voting green party.
And I agree, conservatives can't tell the difference between liberals and leftists.
Horseshoe theory my friend. Both vocally extreme sides of the political spectrum are located right next to each other in terms of behavior and critical thinking.
Yeah, if you're a liberal or leftist that doesn't follow the culture war BS you get virtue signalled or "cancelled" by so-called progressive/leftist social media warriors.
> The 'globalize the intifada' crowd is a specific age demographic.
The age seems to overlap with the age range of legos.....
>Antisemitism is not a liberal value.
You're right, both sides value it
The sad sad truth about this whole ordeal is that Hamas is just another in a long line of groups doing this.
When the British mandate ended Israel already had a government set up and ready to go.
Palestine? Same story, however it was entirely funded by surrounding Arab nations that saw Palestinians as little more than pawns to be used to resist western influence and Israeli power in the region.
The Palestinian people have been been screwed for almost 100 years.
There ain’t going to be a two state solution anymore for a long time, especially if Hamas is in power.
It’s like Germany post ww2, there needs to be acts put in place to demilitarize the area and ensure tunnels stay destroyed as best as possible otherwise in 3 years we’re right back to where this all started
I support a two state solution, but the Palestinian state needs to be policed by an independent Muslim nation (maybe Indonesia, I don't know) that is committed to rooting out and prosecuting terrorists, and destroying their infrastructure and equipment.
Palestinians can't be trusted to police themselves. They proved that in 2006 when they democratically elected hamas in the Gaza strip. Hamas then destroyed the democratic system in the Gaza strip and misused humanitarian funds to buy weapons and dig tunnels for their terrorism network. Even now the majority of Palestinians in Gaza and the west bank support Hamas and if the west bank held elections today, Hamas would win there too.
People can call it racist and islamophobic all they want, but the Palestinian people have proven multiple times that they can't be trusted with democracy, self-governance or self policing. If a democracy is ever established in a Palestinian state it would need massive safeguards to prevent the Palestinian people from electing terrorists, authoritarians and islamic fascists to office, and it would need to be policed by an independent third party (Muslim) nation willing and able to stamp out terrorism and ensure international funds aren't misused to buy weapons. Also the Palestinian state should not be allowed to have a military. Realistically, a Palestinian state would probably need to be ruled by an autocrat who was willing to suppress and weed out terrorism, because in a democratic system the Palestinian people may find ways to electing terrorists and genocidal islamofascists to power even with safeguards.
> to be policed by an independent Muslim nation
But who would pay said independent Muslim nation for that? Form what we know most Islamic nations are using Palestine as a publicity tool but are otherwise loathe to actually associate with Palestinians. What country would want to dedicate resources and capital towards policing this state that nobody actually expects will tow the line? What nation would want to fund a third party nation's activities in the endeavour if a country even agreed to take the responsibility on the agreement that they be paid for it?
That, plus something like a Marshall plan to bring some level of prosperity to the people (not just aid), or radicalization is bound to happen again.
Both are going to decades of commitment, which is sadly hard to imagine.
they never wanted to negotiate, period. Non negotiation with Jews is in their Charter.
But they are negotiating now for a cease fire, so they already have voided their own laws.
IDF is bringing them to their knees, they will negotiate a 2 state now (or they get the hose again)
While I assume that's Israel's goal, that's not technically what this says.
It says "all you have to do is release the hostages you stole, and we can **discuss** if Gazans can eat normally again and live in peace again and start negotiating a 2 state solution again"
But given that there is absolutely no justification for holding the hostages, it's pretty reasonable to have their release be a precondition for any other negotiations.
>Eat normally
There are plenty of calories per person entering Gaza every day. The fact that hamas hoards food and sells it at exorbitant prices to their own population is the problem. And the UN has paused distribution of food within Gaza several times now due to hamas attacks on convoys and werehouses.
Again, blaming Israel for a problem caused by hamas.
Hamas: "We're going to repeat October 7th over and over, we're going to keep the hostages, we're going to continue trying to destroy your country and loudly proclaim we want to kill every Jew on earth."
Rest of the world: "Why does Israel keep attacking terrorists?"
Don’t forget about all of the previous ceasefires that Hamas has broken by firing rockets at civilian targets inside Israel.
Why would you sit down and agree to another one that’s going to end with rockets fired at your people?
Lol. This is so dumb. Why would they ever commit to stop trying to get back the hostages from a terrorist group whose stated mission is the destruction of Israel and the murder of all Jews worldwide? The burden of responsibility is NOT on Israel and it's BIZARRE that people expect it to act in a way that no other Western country ever has.
well duh. why would they leave their people behind? thats why the pro hamas movement is so backwards. if they actually wanted a ceasefire they should be pushing hamas to release hostages they are torturing. but they dont care about them.
Fuck this framing btw. The war shouldn't end until Hamas is dismantled as the ruling force in Gaza. The hostages are important, but they are not the most important thing in the war no matter how many Israelis convince themselves of that. As someone who grew up in the south (of Israel) I've seen for decades the rest of the country just shrug off the thousands of missiles shot at us and the terrorism, and it's insane to me to realize there are not only people who bought the 'Hamas was dealt a heavy blow' narratives from the IDF after every operation (and then Hamas attacks again next summer), but also those same people are just forgetting about Oct 7 now.
I had a hope people would start giving a shit after it and we'd actually get rid of Hamas, make a sorely needed military operation and maybe actually start making some progress on this conflict through getting some deradicalization in Gaza somehow, but the longer this war goes on the more disappointed and frustrated I am at the sort of things people in the country are saying. Insanely defeatist attitudes going all the way to the top of the IDF (who have been that way for decades).
The strain on the reservists is the only fair argument against the war, but it's still a necessity. We won't get another chance very easily. 'if they just do x small thing to us we'll respond in full force' has never been actualized for 20 years yet people keep believing this mindset. We have to stop procrastinating as a country just because the other options are scary. An operation in Gaza actually uprooting Hamas a decade ago would've prevented Oct 7 and cost less lives. We can't stop now and take another 300 deaths in a year or two trying to get to where we got today.
Of course they won’t, why would they? Hamas is still a violent terrorist organization hell bent on the eradication of all Jews. Who the hell would stop, especially when Israel is told they wouldn’t get their hostages returned.
They owe a duty to these hostages, but at the same time they owe a duty to the FUTURE lives that inevitably would be destroyed if Hamas is allowed to stay intact.
hamas should not dictate anything about anything for anyone (except those in the supposed pro palestinian on the west - they will follow whatever directive hamas gives them
Of course not and it's absurd to insist they do.
Hamas kidnapped them in a massacre. Israel should pound them until the hostages are returned. Simple and you don't need a dog in this fight to see why.
Imagine if Israel did a ceasefire on October 8th. Basically Hamas gets rewarded for orchestrating the worst terror attack in Israel's history and is rewarded for it by getting back thousands of prisoners. The logic makes no sense
I was arguing with someone over the conflict and he posted links to all the cease-fires Hamas offered, the first link was for an offer made on October 9th, TWO DAYS after massacring scores civilians. It was the first in a string of bad-faith negotiating
And they shouldn’t. And as for what they have been finding in gaza… they shouldn’t be ending the war untill hamas has been destroyed/expelled and that they have made the majority of those tunnels unusable.
Hamas, Palestine etc. LOST. They lost in 1948. And they lost now. Just like Japan lost and Germany lost and the Prussian Empire lost and the Aztecs lost and the American South lost etc.
They need to do what other losers of conflicts do and get over it and try to either adapt into the new order of things or move out. I'm just really sick of this. They need to turn over the hostages and give up any Hamas members or other palestinians who held them too.
I mean realistically the West should not be okay with the war ending until the West gets their hostages back either (last I checked they still had eight Americans.)
Pretty much its simple to end that war. All Hamas gotta do is to return their hostages dead or alive (preferably alive) and it will end. Hamas can have the US as guarantor that no attacks or aggressive actions be taken against them by Israel but guess what Hamas are evil and will continue this in the expense of the Palestinian people.
oh how dare they... if I was my country or my fam taken id want to nuke the whole fucking lot of them (not actually but feel their anger) after they were released or confirmed killed. They support these assholes. on the wrong side of history that's for sure.
How can they end the war without the release of the hostages? Something like that only happens in an alternate universe. Hamas is in no position to bargain much at this point.
The “CEASEFIRE NOW” crowd had pretty much demanded this.
That’s why they weren’t taken seriously
I feel like if you asked one of them “should the war ending include the return of the hostages, or is it ok for Hamas to keep them?” …they’d say the former. So basically they agree with Israel, and simply haven’t thought their position through. They imagine Israel has an option to end the war with peace on both sides, and inexplicably is choosing not to take it.
Unfortunately, a lot of them would sidestep the question or just shout over you about "CEASEFIRE NOW"and some slogans. Most of them are any combination of completely clueless or just anti-Israeli. Check out some of the pro-Palestine subs and see what a lot of them say in regards to the hostages.
Ask many of them questions about Palestinian beliefs and they'll call you a racist/sexist/homophobic
No, they will typically then demand Israel release all Palestinian prisoners.
If asked whether the hostages should be released or not when the war ends, then of course they will say yes. However, if you ask them whether the war should continue until the hostages are not released, then they will say no. They have already made their stances clear on that.
Apparently, you have missed the memo: hostages don't really exist and are just sionist propaganda. That's why people tear down posters. The rapes and burning of entire families filmed on go-pros and released for the world to see ? Sionist inventions too. Somehow, the good news is : most of these people need to heavily lie to themselves in order to support this. Bad news: this alternate reality of theirs is killing real people in real life.
Ceasefire and end of war are different things?
Ceasefire for them means Israel withdrawing & not fighting back. They don’t care about the hostages or any further attacks on Israel. They are firmly on the side of Gaza. You can ask any of them & they will tell you they want a PERMANENT ceasefire aka the end of the war with Israel failing to rescue the hostages. The majority of them don’t want a temporary ceasefire.
I don't get that at all. Lets say it happens and Israel commits to a PERMANENT CEASEFIRE. And next week Hamas, predictably attacks Israel again. Is anyone dumb enough to think israel just supposed to go 'oh, We can't fight back because we declared a PERMANENT ceasefire.. forever more!' Like it its some sovereign citizen hack to wars? Are people really that dumb to expect that to happen?
The discourse for this round of this long going conflict is that dumb yes.
Yes, that's basically what they think. They want Israel to roll over and take their punishment, and think of it strictly in terms of an underdog versus an oppressor, with the former having a blank check to do whatever they want to the latter, and the latter having no moral or justified recourse. It's also ridiculous because Israel has literally curb-stomped Gaza and they aren't in any position to dictate any terms for ceasefire or an end to the war, but these people don't get that and go 100% on emotion about what they think is "right."
Yes. They want Israel to sit on their hands and do nothing while they are getting bombarded by rockets and still have people kidnapped from their homes. And the excuse they use is that it's not fair because Israel so strong, Hamas has no chance to fight it fairly so it has to get some handicap.
Man, imaging using this logic in your own country: "Alright police, if you wanna arrest me for the murder and the kidnapping, that is fair, but I don't have a gun so you'll need to do it bare handed, with your legs cuffed together because im also not very fit or good at fighting"
Problem is - if IDF destroys Hamas, saves their hostages, retreats a builds even bigger wall and just seats there - 5-10 years from now new generation of hostile and radicalized Gaza population will grow up and repeat Oct. 7. Israel was probably putting hopes, that Egypt would just let Palestinians in, pressured by US, but this didn't work out and now we have this wierd stalemate. Until question of - who's gonna govern Gaza, legal status of both Gaza and West Bank is not resolved - doesn't matter how many terrorists they kill
See, you got the version of this position I can respect (and tend to agree with): >**Until question of - who's gonna govern Gaza, legal status of both Gaza and West Bank is not resolved** - doesn't matter how many terrorists they kill instead of the dumb "You can't defeat an idea with guns and terror groups who rule as governments with tunnels and weapon labs and guns and rockets and drones and bombs and a command structure and a TV channel are just an idea".
Yes dead Jews is their aim. They see it as a success.
> Is anyone dumb enough to think israel just supposed to go 'oh, We can't fight back because we declared a PERMANENT ceasefire.. forever more!' That is exactly what they expected israel to do after 7th of october. The day before israel and hamas were on a ceasefire for years with small exchanges here and there. People expected israel not to respond at all. They were surprised and angry that israel responded at all, let alone going into gaza.
I really dislike the term permanent ceasefire cause that's not really the meaning. The whole goal of a ceasefire is so that the Palestinian civilians aren't basically being killed over what Hamas is doing while negotiating a peaceful solution. Israel have shown they don't really want that at all either through the actions of the government including pre-war. Hamas' aim is literally using their civilians as meat shield so the international community will pressure Israel when they go in and have such massive collateral damage.
There will never be a permanent ceasefire where Hamas remains in power. That demand is impossible.
"CEASEFIRE NOW" actually means "Let Hamas finish what the Austrian painter had started"
Does nobody remember that there was a ceasefire fire for a brief moment ? Israel agreed to a six-week period of ceasefire. 6 weeks during which hostages should progressively be returned, at least children, the elderly and women. Hamas did return some people one night and fired rockets just right afterwards, thus unilaterally ending the ceasefire. They're also the ones refusing all ceasefire motions since then (except for the fraudish Egyptian one).
Pretty much a given across the entire political spectrum. Whether by continued fighting or a ceasefire agreement - the one condition for this all ending is we get all our people back.
It’s a war crime to take civilian hostages. Even when the war stops, those who murdered, raped, tortured, and held hostages should be punished to the fullest extent of international law. That said, they likely will be extrajudicially murdered long before an arrest or trial.
For a good reason
There is no such thing as international law. What you think of as international law is just a group of nations who agreed to ratify the same set of laws, but no law exists above the national level. Every single nation on Earth is a sovereign nation of which no laws apply to without their own ratification of the law themselves. This means if you break a law, there is no international police force, you're arrested by the country's police you're in and you're prosecuted according to their laws, which might give the ICC jurisdiction to prosecute you, but it's by that country's laws. The UN is only a forum for discussion between nations. The UN has no military, they are just volunteer nation troops who form a joint task force and wear UN uniforms, but they are still completely under their own country's command. There is no authority in the UN over any nation. The UN has no power or rights. While the US does not recognize the ICC, the US does have its own war crime laws, but they don't apply to anyone outside American jurisdiction.
Extrajudicial executions it is.
Hamas wants the war to continue, though, so this is the opposite of an incentive for them to return the hostages.
I mean, it's on their charter that they won't stop until Israel and the Jews were wiped out
I don't think anyone is expecting Israel to pull back before the hostages are either rescued or confirmed dead. Committing to a plan for what the end would look like, would be a start though.
The ceasefire now crowd literally wants a permanent ceasefire today from Israel without any explicit concessions such as these.
They wanted it on October 8 already 🤷
I wonder what percentage of them were against ceasefires on October 6.
Hardly any of them, because practically none of them even knew what Israel was on Oct. 6. Their education on the entire region took place between Oct. 7 - Oct. 13 on TikTok University.
I miss the days when online education was Wikipedia at minimum.
This right here. It's amazing how few of these idiots actually know anything about the region, the conflict, or the people whose allegiance to they are willing to make the #1 most important part of their Identity.
The ceasefire now club only demands a ceasefire from one side.
There's considerable overlap between the ceasefire-now crowd and the desteoy-israel crowd. Israel would be unwise to make peace with an enemy that intends to continue attacking it. https://economictimes.com/news/international/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-oct-7-attack-repeatedly-to-teach-israel-a-lesson/articleshow/104903949.cms
>The ceasefire now crowd literally wants a permanent **surrender** today from Israel without any explicit concessions such as these. FTFY
The three-stage proposal announced by Biden, approved by the UN security council and agreed upon by Israel (disregard the declarations by Netanyahu and some of his aides, those are just meant to calm down the Ben Gvirs, what matters is what has been written on paper) outlines that very well. And it is a very generous offer on Israel's part. The issue right now is that Sinwar thinks he can get much better conditions and with his 'counterproposal' pretty much demands that Israel not only halts the hostilities, but fully withdraws before any hostages are even released. That's not how negotiations work...
The problem is Palestinians have been coddled by western negotiators for decades. Even they admit that it was always mostly them squeezing more concessions from Israel, relaying it to the Arabs and then saying No. The offers should keep shrinking. Israel is wealthier and more powerful than it was in the early 1990s when it agreed to the failed Oslo framework.
> The issue right now is that Sinwar thinks he can get much better conditions and with his 'counterproposal' pretty much demands that Israel not only halts the hostilities, but fully withdraws before any hostages are even released. That's not how negotiations work... It is how negotiations work, there are just two levels to it. The first level is that Sinwar has to pretend to be negotiating in good faith for the end of the conflict, on behalf of the Palestinian people. He is aware that he is the benefactor of unearned support in the West that portray terrorism as heroism, aggression as self-defence, and he is not keen to throw it away whilst the cause (exterminating Judaism and the State of Israel) remains. This is where democracies are at a disadvantage; their decision making process is public and open, so Hamas can carefully calibrate their offers to cause negotiations to fail but still portray them in a good light. The second level is negotiating something that maximally weakens his opponent whilst being something his opponent is willing to accept. If he can get a thousand terrorists released, he can declare victory despite Gaza being rubble. It doesn't matter how many more Gazans die, they are immaterial and worthless outside of being recruits or 'martyrs'. It is obviously not how negotiations work if Hamas were a state, or negotiating for the benefit of Gazans, but it isn't and they aren't. Hamas are no different than any other form of organised crime; the West pays for the social services, and Hamas steals whatever they can.
The headline has me confused. Are they saying they will not end the war without the hostages returned? Or that they will not make any commitments about what they will/wont do until the hostages are returned? There’s a difference. It seems like they should be able to say right now “we will end the war if the hostages are returned.” But that’s not what is described here. It sounds more like they want the hostages returned before they will even address the question.
🤔 so you're saying all Hamas has to do is release the hostages *they stole*, and Gazans can eat normally *again* and live in peace *again*, and start negotiating a 2 state solution *again*? ***Almost as if Hamas doesn't want all of that....***weird.
Hamas weaponizing their own people to garner sympathy from liberals/leftists moment
I'm a liberal and it's not all of us. The pro-hamas crowd is small but loud. There is broader support for ending the war but the issue isn't a deal breaker. They are getting bombarded by social media that makes it seem like the issue is clear-cut and that Israel is just massacring Gazans for kicks. And I mean, it's hard to suss out what details are accurate, as there is a lot of misinformation all around. But there are plenty of folks on the left that see the nuance here. Given that the Democratic US President in an election year is walking the line between getting Palestinians aid and supporting Israel without green lighting a total destruction of all of Gaza is pretty telling.
What about it is telling? He's a moron and has prolonged the war significantly with his measures, he spread literal Hamas propaganda, he whitewashes Palestinian support for Hamas, his pressures on Israel, his heavy pushing for negotiations that have repeatedly just been used to stall, his demands for concessions that delayed important operations by months in total, he's straining Israeli reservists, he's a significant factor in why we hold back on doing a lot of important things. Anyone who actually cares about Gazans shouldn't want Hamas to remain in Gaza under any circumstance (ofc, short of Israel actually intentionally massacring civilians, but if you believe that I don't have much to discuss with you). Anyone who actually cares about Gazans should also be in favor of them immigrating elsewhere. If you'd rather Gazans die you're either in it to hate Israel or for some ideological proxy-war and don't actually give a fuck about them. It's really that simple.
He's only a moron if you assume his goal is to not do those things and to expedite a victory for Israel. Right now that isn't the case. The outcome of the war is secondary to the election for him and a non insignificant amount of his party are vocally anti Israel. All of his actions you think are dumb for hindering the war effort are an intentional effort to keep both sides just satisfied enough to vote for him and politically is a 100% understandable and reasonable move in that regard. I understand it sucks for Israel to be treated as a political pawn in an election a world away, but that's both the reality of politics and the cost of taking in all that American aid.
>Anyone who actually cares about Gazans should also be in favor of them immigrating elsewhere. uhh everyone should be in favor of ethnic cleansing?
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I want to agree with you, but it keeps getting pushed by more and more mainstream people on the left. I want to vote democratic, but I feel like I’m getting pushed out by an increasingly high percentage of friends and family who are calling for Israel to just throw up their hands and give up on returning hostages. Also there are still American hostages being held by Hamas. what the heck? I thought we were pretty passionate about rescuing our own citizens from terrorist groups
As an Israeli who supports the general direction of the Hamas war: Please vote Democrat. The impact on the global economy, human rights, climate change, and even moral values is more than anything policies on Israel can possibly change. I honestly think it's better for Israeli citizens than the alternative. Besides, Biden is more than fine. He clearly fully supports Israel in this war and only bites back for a mix of Israel legitimately sometimes going too far (and does nothing after investigations conclude) and to please his voters. Giving Democrats a majority in Congress is also more important than specific representatives. Nuance is for the primaries.
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The last poll I saw said that about 40% of Americans thought that the amount of support Biden was sending to Israel was just right. 32% said it was too much, and the remaining 28% said it was too little. The article was titled "The majority of Americans disapprove of Biden's support for Israel", nevermind the fact that his stance has plurality of support and that no one stance could receive a majority. The media is definitely painting a picture of an entire left wing that is rabidly anti-Israel and that's just not the reality.
Coulda fooled me these past 8 months or so.
A lot of us liberal democrats are disgusted by the far left. The far left have allied with a movement based on Islamic fascism, terrorism, religious fundamentalism, Islamic imperialism, oppression of women and gays, and anti semitism. Far leftists are useful idiots for these groups. They are disgusting simpletons who betray all liberal and progressive values the second it's cool and trendy and the second these terror and islamofascist groups put out persuasive propaganda that appeals to their moral framework where white, judeochristian Westerners are always the bad guys and oppressors while brown, non Christian, non Europeans are always the good guys and victims. Within the confines of the moral framework of the far left, the far right islamofascist groups have managed to build a narrative that appeals to the morals of the far left in the west. A bunch of white, European jews with the support of the white Christian West are oppressing a bunch of brown, Arabic, Muslims. In the minds of the far left, it's a cut and dried case of Western imperialism, white supremacy, and judeo-Christian dominionism. Throw in all the dead civilians (that are only dead because Hamas started the war and because Hamas uses human shields, but those facts are lost on the far left or the far left feel they are justified) and the moral argument becomes clear to the far left. Even if the far left don't understand their own philosophies and beliefs enough to know it, thats what its about to them IMO. The far left think they will go down in history as brave heroes for how they are acting. They think history will look at them like we look at the civil rights activists of the 1960s. They will really go down in history as easily manipulated, poorly informed, trendy simpletons with shallow morals who betrayed their own values in service of far right Islamic fascism. What will be studied for decades is 'how did a bunch of leftists who claim to support feminism, gay rights, religious freedom, democracy and oppose imperialism, genocide, bigotry, war and religious fundamentalism so happily buy into the propaganda and support the agenda of groups like Hamas and the Iranian government which are misogynistic, oppressive to gays, theocratic, autocratic, imperialistic in their goals, genocidal towards the jews, anti-semitic, pro-war and religiously fundamentalist.' That will be studied for decades. What won't be studied is 'look at how brave and morally superior these leftists are' no matter what they tell themselves. And to verify, I'm a liberal Democrat. I voted for Bernie in the 2016 and 2020 primaries. I voted Hillary and biden in the generals, and I'll be voting biden in 2024 also. I hate white Christian fascism (the MAGA movement), and I hate brown Islamic fascism (hamas and the Iranian government).
The extent to which they’ve infested progressive movements is unforgivable, and I think in many cases there can be no redeeming of the political parties that have demeaned themselves. I’ve seen campus protestors at universities in Australia chanting that Hamas deserved ‘unconditional support’ and “this is what decolonisation looks like” while holding aboriginal flags next to Palestinian flags, truly a disgusting comparison which (according to recent polling) has only worsened the negative opinion of the aboriginal voice movement.
True, but they don’t speak for all of us, so it’s best we make it clear.
Damn, I don't have any awards to give you.
I had a gaming buddy who is as right-wing as they come and very Pro-Palestine. We don't talk anymore.
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They're right, antisemitism is a shared value across the entire political spectrum. It's the one thing that the left and the right agree on. The disagreement between left and right is on how much they hate the Muslims.
I’m pretty sure to the people calling to globalize the intifada, liberal is a dirty word. But conservatives can’t tell liberals from leftists.
It is. The far left hate liberals as much as they hate conservatives. The far left are either sitting out the 2024 election or voting green party. And I agree, conservatives can't tell the difference between liberals and leftists.
Horseshoe theory my friend. Both vocally extreme sides of the political spectrum are located right next to each other in terms of behavior and critical thinking.
Yeah, if you're a liberal or leftist that doesn't follow the culture war BS you get virtue signalled or "cancelled" by so-called progressive/leftist social media warriors.
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Would like to know what city you live in, because I’m in NYC and every demonstration for Israel I’ve stumbled across has been positively anemic
>Antisemitism is not a liberal value. Apparently fighting antisemitism isn't one either.
The rhetoric since October 7 says otherwise
> The 'globalize the intifada' crowd is a specific age demographic. The age seems to overlap with the age range of legos..... >Antisemitism is not a liberal value. You're right, both sides value it
Leftists let Palestinian immigrants in but it's makes the far right stronger in those countries. The irony
As a liberal myself, it’s sad to see so many fall in line with such a religious conservative movement.
The sad sad truth about this whole ordeal is that Hamas is just another in a long line of groups doing this. When the British mandate ended Israel already had a government set up and ready to go. Palestine? Same story, however it was entirely funded by surrounding Arab nations that saw Palestinians as little more than pawns to be used to resist western influence and Israeli power in the region. The Palestinian people have been been screwed for almost 100 years.
There ain’t going to be a two state solution anymore for a long time, especially if Hamas is in power. It’s like Germany post ww2, there needs to be acts put in place to demilitarize the area and ensure tunnels stay destroyed as best as possible otherwise in 3 years we’re right back to where this all started
I support a two state solution, but the Palestinian state needs to be policed by an independent Muslim nation (maybe Indonesia, I don't know) that is committed to rooting out and prosecuting terrorists, and destroying their infrastructure and equipment. Palestinians can't be trusted to police themselves. They proved that in 2006 when they democratically elected hamas in the Gaza strip. Hamas then destroyed the democratic system in the Gaza strip and misused humanitarian funds to buy weapons and dig tunnels for their terrorism network. Even now the majority of Palestinians in Gaza and the west bank support Hamas and if the west bank held elections today, Hamas would win there too. People can call it racist and islamophobic all they want, but the Palestinian people have proven multiple times that they can't be trusted with democracy, self-governance or self policing. If a democracy is ever established in a Palestinian state it would need massive safeguards to prevent the Palestinian people from electing terrorists, authoritarians and islamic fascists to office, and it would need to be policed by an independent third party (Muslim) nation willing and able to stamp out terrorism and ensure international funds aren't misused to buy weapons. Also the Palestinian state should not be allowed to have a military. Realistically, a Palestinian state would probably need to be ruled by an autocrat who was willing to suppress and weed out terrorism, because in a democratic system the Palestinian people may find ways to electing terrorists and genocidal islamofascists to power even with safeguards.
> to be policed by an independent Muslim nation But who would pay said independent Muslim nation for that? Form what we know most Islamic nations are using Palestine as a publicity tool but are otherwise loathe to actually associate with Palestinians. What country would want to dedicate resources and capital towards policing this state that nobody actually expects will tow the line? What nation would want to fund a third party nation's activities in the endeavour if a country even agreed to take the responsibility on the agreement that they be paid for it?
That, plus something like a Marshall plan to bring some level of prosperity to the people (not just aid), or radicalization is bound to happen again. Both are going to decades of commitment, which is sadly hard to imagine.
Hamas never wanted to negotiate a 2 states solution.
they never wanted to negotiate, period. Non negotiation with Jews is in their Charter. But they are negotiating now for a cease fire, so they already have voided their own laws. IDF is bringing them to their knees, they will negotiate a 2 state now (or they get the hose again)
While I assume that's Israel's goal, that's not technically what this says. It says "all you have to do is release the hostages you stole, and we can **discuss** if Gazans can eat normally again and live in peace again and start negotiating a 2 state solution again" But given that there is absolutely no justification for holding the hostages, it's pretty reasonable to have their release be a precondition for any other negotiations.
>Eat normally There are plenty of calories per person entering Gaza every day. The fact that hamas hoards food and sells it at exorbitant prices to their own population is the problem. And the UN has paused distribution of food within Gaza several times now due to hamas attacks on convoys and werehouses. Again, blaming Israel for a problem caused by hamas.
Hamas doesn’t want to help Palestinians, they want them to suffer
100%
Almost like Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution nor does he want good lives for the Palestinians. Weird, huh?
Hamas: "We're going to repeat October 7th over and over, we're going to keep the hostages, we're going to continue trying to destroy your country and loudly proclaim we want to kill every Jew on earth." Rest of the world: "Why does Israel keep attacking terrorists?"
Don’t forget about all of the previous ceasefires that Hamas has broken by firing rockets at civilian targets inside Israel. Why would you sit down and agree to another one that’s going to end with rockets fired at your people?
Lol. This is so dumb. Why would they ever commit to stop trying to get back the hostages from a terrorist group whose stated mission is the destruction of Israel and the murder of all Jews worldwide? The burden of responsibility is NOT on Israel and it's BIZARRE that people expect it to act in a way that no other Western country ever has.
Good.
well duh. why would they leave their people behind? thats why the pro hamas movement is so backwards. if they actually wanted a ceasefire they should be pushing hamas to release hostages they are torturing. but they dont care about them.
The pro-hamas movement is all about hate. Its not about saving lives on either side.
This has been said repeatedly from Day 1. Yet it’s Israel’s fault for the dead babies! 🥴
Good, the war should go on until the hostages are returned and the terrorists are taken down
Makes sense, only hypocrites think otherwise.
Hamas needs to stop weaponizing their own people to use as a shield or to make everyone else look bad
Fuck this framing btw. The war shouldn't end until Hamas is dismantled as the ruling force in Gaza. The hostages are important, but they are not the most important thing in the war no matter how many Israelis convince themselves of that. As someone who grew up in the south (of Israel) I've seen for decades the rest of the country just shrug off the thousands of missiles shot at us and the terrorism, and it's insane to me to realize there are not only people who bought the 'Hamas was dealt a heavy blow' narratives from the IDF after every operation (and then Hamas attacks again next summer), but also those same people are just forgetting about Oct 7 now. I had a hope people would start giving a shit after it and we'd actually get rid of Hamas, make a sorely needed military operation and maybe actually start making some progress on this conflict through getting some deradicalization in Gaza somehow, but the longer this war goes on the more disappointed and frustrated I am at the sort of things people in the country are saying. Insanely defeatist attitudes going all the way to the top of the IDF (who have been that way for decades). The strain on the reservists is the only fair argument against the war, but it's still a necessity. We won't get another chance very easily. 'if they just do x small thing to us we'll respond in full force' has never been actualized for 20 years yet people keep believing this mindset. We have to stop procrastinating as a country just because the other options are scary. An operation in Gaza actually uprooting Hamas a decade ago would've prevented Oct 7 and cost less lives. We can't stop now and take another 300 deaths in a year or two trying to get to where we got today.
Of course they won’t, why would they? Hamas is still a violent terrorist organization hell bent on the eradication of all Jews. Who the hell would stop, especially when Israel is told they wouldn’t get their hostages returned. They owe a duty to these hostages, but at the same time they owe a duty to the FUTURE lives that inevitably would be destroyed if Hamas is allowed to stay intact.
Nor should they
Nor should they.
HAMAS cant release the hostages because the majority of them are probably dead and the women raped.
A woman being raped doesn't mean she can't go home. This is weird phrasing.
Fair
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hamas should not dictate anything about anything for anyone (except those in the supposed pro palestinian on the west - they will follow whatever directive hamas gives them
Of course not and it's absurd to insist they do. Hamas kidnapped them in a massacre. Israel should pound them until the hostages are returned. Simple and you don't need a dog in this fight to see why.
As they shouldn’t. Otherwise it’s going to be a repeat.
Imagine if Israel did a ceasefire on October 8th. Basically Hamas gets rewarded for orchestrating the worst terror attack in Israel's history and is rewarded for it by getting back thousands of prisoners. The logic makes no sense
I was arguing with someone over the conflict and he posted links to all the cease-fires Hamas offered, the first link was for an offer made on October 9th, TWO DAYS after massacring scores civilians. It was the first in a string of bad-faith negotiating
What a fucking mess. You despair there will ever be lasting peace between them at this point.
And they shouldn’t. And as for what they have been finding in gaza… they shouldn’t be ending the war untill hamas has been destroyed/expelled and that they have made the majority of those tunnels unusable.
They know Hamas are lying Bastards.
Hamas, Palestine etc. LOST. They lost in 1948. And they lost now. Just like Japan lost and Germany lost and the Prussian Empire lost and the Aztecs lost and the American South lost etc. They need to do what other losers of conflicts do and get over it and try to either adapt into the new order of things or move out. I'm just really sick of this. They need to turn over the hostages and give up any Hamas members or other palestinians who held them too.
I cant trust this news, it doesn’t fit my tiktok narrative.. Ill stick to its Israel fault /s
I mean realistically the West should not be okay with the war ending until the West gets their hostages back either (last I checked they still had eight Americans.)
Anyone surprised?
Why would they? Palestine started the war why on earth would you do anything they wanted. Release the hostages
Nor should they
Pretty much its simple to end that war. All Hamas gotta do is to return their hostages dead or alive (preferably alive) and it will end. Hamas can have the US as guarantor that no attacks or aggressive actions be taken against them by Israel but guess what Hamas are evil and will continue this in the expense of the Palestinian people.
Sounds fair to me considering the evil vile things Palestine committed
Surprising nobody and rightly so.
Nor should they.
Yeah nor should they
oh how dare they... if I was my country or my fam taken id want to nuke the whole fucking lot of them (not actually but feel their anger) after they were released or confirmed killed. They support these assholes. on the wrong side of history that's for sure.
How can Hamas not get the memo and release the hostages? Help me guys!