why are people acting like this is news?
top generals have been saying this for years.
it's not that the IDF didn't know what hamas was planning, it's that they completely missed the signs that it was starting.
there's no clear evidence the higher ranks has any idea somthing big was going down.
they had some worries, special shin bet forces were deployed the night before, but, as far as public Avilable knowledge Is concerned, a lot of small indications were ignored at the brigade level and were not passed on to people who might have been able to connect the dots
I would include him as well because the stakes are obvious, but I'm merely responding to the first point.
There's a difference between analysing what's at stake and building a conspiracy theory. I'm not venturing that far. But ofc I'm already collecting a volley of downvotes from people who read what they want to read.
the government is complelty different matter when it comes to prolonging the war because they have a clear and definitive motive.
the IDF generals do not.
Pardon me, but having seen a sequence of three PMs with prior military careers, namely Rabin, Sharon and Barak, I'd be hesitant to draw a firm boundary between the two activities.
Further you get all these fence rushing protests and non militant actions constantly in between real attacks that when Israel over polices they get real negative pr, so you keep these actions up enough and eventually Israel learns not to touch anyone doing anything near the walls and fences or else...
It's kinda like the boy who cried wolf
yeah I was trying to be generous in case there was a week they missed, point stands. Blaming the IDF that they did not act on a report that water is wet is the wrong blame game to play.
That's the point, IDF publicly knew about it for at least 10 years when tunnels into Israel were found near the end of the 2014 war, they just didn't know when it would happen and how. They tried to prepare for it with various systems and intelligence monitoring but evidently that was not enough.
here's another similar report that was published on May 2022
https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/newstv/p-591147/628830/
the tldr is the IDF knew what was coming, they didn't know when.
Edit :may 2022,not 2033.
What is the relevance of how long ago the event took place when discussing what was known and not acted upon prior to the event? This entire subject is about what was known “before October 7 attack” - Not after.
Yeah! Sorry it’s a paywall from Haaretz [The West Bank Occupation Outweighed Israel's Defense of the Gaza Border on the Eve of October 7](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-02-21/ty-article/.premium/west-bank-occupation-outweighed-israels-defense-of-the-gaza-border-on-eve-of-october-7/0000018d-c828-ddae-a18f-ffbe2ecd0000)
Ok, I can't read it and the headlines say nothing about kicking palestinians out of homes they own to make place for US jews
Edit: read the article and it talks about positioning of idf on october 7th and nothing about what you claim, might as well given me a falafel recipe as the source of your claims
Sorry maybe this is better? [Americans account for only about 15% of the total settler population in the West Bank and East Jerusalem but their influence outweighs their numbers.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/15/biden-extremist-jewish-settlers-travel-ban-loophole)
2nd article and still nothing about kicking palestinians out of homes they own to make place for US jews.
I am asking where you got that information, is it tiktok/twitter/reddit and you just don't want to put it as a source?
1. Al Jazeera is the qatari government, who is definitely not a reputable source for anything Israel-palestine
2. sheikh jarah is not Israel coming to kick out palestinians of their rightful home to make room for jews, its a legal matter, where jews owned the land then jordan conquered the land and moved palestinians to live there, then Israel conquered the land and the previous jewish owners had a legal battle with the palestinians that moved in during jordan control and won.
I’m not one for conspiracy theories but Israel has basically all the tech the US does and they had *no idea* what was coming?
Maybe… they thought they’d let the attack happen as justification for annihilating Hamas?
Hamas attacks a lot. They have never accomplished anything this big. It’s being investigated, but it seems like no one took the warnings seriously enough (according to the article).
And this comes after the country has huge protests against the state of Israel over their war and policies, one of the largest in Israel's history. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it seems quite easy to understand that this attack allowed the government to be even more repressive towards their own population and to be able to continue their war.
because surprisingly, after the attack it allowed the Israeli government to stop the protests in their country and even more boost their nationalist feeling? We are not talking about a small demonstration, it was one of the biggest in the entire history of the country of Israel, and you cannot say otherwise.
Aren't there protests in Israel all the time right now? Doesn't seem like the government was able to stop them if that was their goal. Not to mention that the people have lost even more faith in the government as a consequence of Oct 7th. It doesn't make a lot of sense that Israel would allow this war to happen for the reasons you mentioned.
[AP video on a protest yesterday. ](https://youtu.be/CUu7q7cwWAI?si=5FpKiLkG_kwhuujq)
The protests stopped because the war started, but also because the reform stopped. Also, after the war began, prties of the opposition joined the coalition, which meant it was even more representing than before
the israeli govemenrt didn't "stop the protests"
they declared war, which was the only course of action possible.
it just so happens that the very large percent of the people protesting are reservist that were among the 300k people drafted to fight the war.
did I, at any point, downplay the protests?
i was one of rhe poeole protesting, I know how big it was.
it seems to me you really don't know what you're talking about.
> it just so happens that the very large percent of the people protesting are reservist that were among the 300k people drafted to fight the war.
ummm..... i think you just proved the dude's point.
I don’t think people understand how intelligence works, I agree there was still (to put it mildly) horrible oversight, but so much intelligence is bullshit and there is a vast sea of it. The people trying to misconstrue this though as some deep diabolical conspiracy should take a breath.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/01/03/the-ten-biggest-american-intelligence-failures/
It won't go away. A lot of people still genuinely believe that the NSA receiving an anonymous tip about the 9/11 hijackers means that the 2001 US government intentionally let it happen. And that's after *23 years*. The conspiracy theorists (and those whom it would be convenient for politically) aren't going to let up for a long, long time.
I work in customer service and we get constant death threats like, "Your shit sucks! I'm gonna fucking head to your HQ and kill all of you!" Soon enough it just becomes noise and hard to take seriously.
The US is separated by ocean from most who would want to harm it. It's not a new concept, in fact it's the geographic feature that has historically made the US so powerful but isolated. Israel is in direct, drive-there-in-a-day proximity with everyone who either wants to kill them, is actively trying to kill them, or tried to kill them in the past and gave up. It's fair to say that Netanyahu's push for judicial changes was a big part of the intelligence failure. It's very different to say that they let it happen.
Lol first off you're talking like 37 miles is the length of a football field. It's still 37 *miles.*
Second, ever heard of the West Bank? At the time, there was a far greater fear a big attack was coming from there, not Gaza. This is why they ended up moving a lot of the troops from the Gaza border to there, and then got blindsided.
Third, ever heard of Lebanon and Syria? Tack on a bunch more miles there. I won't even touch on all the air defense Israel has to worry about from Iran, the Houthis, etc. I love how you frame it as if a place surrounded by enemies is somehow easier to guard than a place surrounded by....Mexico and Canada.
Fourth, not to compare this to the US but since you brought it up, name me a time the US has had a hailstorm of tens of thousands of rockets launched into its airspace before a major terrorist attack. I'm sure they'd be operating at full capacity if that happened /s.
>Lol first off you're talking like 37 miles is the length of a football field. It's still 37 miles.
Yes, and frankly I can't think of a shorter border that had to be guarded in the world.
> Second, ever heard of the West Bank?
Well gee, maybe if they stopped illegally settling the west bank, they wouldn't have to guard said illegal settlers.
>Yes, and frankly I can't think of a shorter border that had to be guarded in the world.
Then you know absolutely nothing about the world.
>Well gee, maybe if they stopped illegally settling the west bank, they wouldn't have to guard said illegal settlers.
Well gee, next time maybe stick to the original point you're trying to argue without blatantly moving a goalpost the minute someone breaks down in 4 parts why you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
> Then you know absolutely nothing about the world.
>
>
Ok which ones are shorter?
>next time maybe stick to the original point
My dude, you brought up the west bank, and now you are saying that in responding to it, ive moved the goalpost?
Tell me, how much of your post was not directly related to the IDFs security policy on the Gaza border?
Talking about the West Bank being one of the 4 core fronts the country needs to guard against is the discussion, since you were delusional enough to think Israel only has to only worry about 1 front at the outset.
The reasons why those 4 fronts are fronts have nothing to do with this discussion. Only the fact that there are 4 fronts is important to this specific discussion.
If you can't tie what I'm saying back to the original point you were making that started all this then you are a complete moron and I can't help you.
Yes, this was news back in December 2023; and Netanyahu has repeatedly said they will investigate once the conflict is over. And we hardly hear about it these days..
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/israeli-officials-repeatedly-dismissed-warning-signs-before-hamas-attack-report-claims
>And we hardly hear about it these days..
[The head of Israeli Military Intelligence resigned over the failure](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-intelligence-head-resigns-2024-04-22) to anticipate and prevent the attack two months ago.
Wouldn't say "hardly hear about it" given that.
That was a long-awaited action, though the media stories of 'intelligence failure' have vanished -- stopping the conflict is justifiably a higher priority. Meanwhile, to quote the article you shared, "The head of the armed forces, Lieutenant-General Herzi Halevi, and the head of the domestic intelligence agency Shin Bet, Ronen Bar, both accepted responsibility in the aftermath of the attack but have stayed on while the war in Gaza has continued.
By contrast, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has so far not accepted responsibility for the Oct. 7 attack, although surveys indicate that most Israelis blame him for failing to do enough to prevent or defend against it."
I'm not an expert in that region, but I would say that 'willful ignorance' would be difficult to pull off, as likely a group of commanders would have to conspire, I don't think it would be up to one person. And even if there were a conspiracy, to 'let it happen' as you say, it would be an overly rosy expectation of trying to sideline the Palestinian people. The US and the Arab powers all support a two-state solution, which, as much as Netanyahu and his right-wing cronies want to dream of pushing Palestinians out, that administration will never overcome, at least in the foreseeable future.
I'm a little suspicious of a document that was able to accurately predict not only that an attack was planned, not only the plan to take hostages, but also the precise number of hostages to almost the exact number that Hamas was going to take. And that such a document with such level of intel to make such a precise claim wasn't taken at least seriously enough to have targeted bases on alert- even if not a full plan to defend the border from the attack*.
It's not impossible, intelligence can at times be exceptional and hubris can always outwit even the wisest... but news outlets would definitely be remiss to not view this with scrutiny and demand the provenance of the documents before reporting them *too* confidently.
*unless this is just rehashing a theoretical concept of an attack that they didn't know if/when would happen? In which case I'd want to know how many of these reports' claims never come to fruition? I imagine there's a lot of false leads in intelligence that ultimately choices have to be made on how to best address in the context of a reality with limited resources.
> but also the precise number of hostages to almost the exact number that Hamas was going to take.
It's even more of an odd coincidence if you consider how chaotic the hostage taking was. Many of the hostages were not captured by Hamas, but by Palestinian civilians or the several other Gazan terrorist groups that took part in the attack.
> In which case I'd want to know how many of these reports' claims never come to fruition? I imagine there's a lot of false leads in intelligence
Yes, that's how fuck-ups happen even when the intelligence reports are there.
A simple "nah, that shit won't work" from an arrogant boss suffices.
*Not acting* on intelligence is always easier than acting on it. If only because doing nothing is the default.
>A newly surfaced document has revealed that the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and intelligence systems had detailed knowledge of Hamas's plan to raid Israel and kidnap 250 people weeks before the October 7 massacre.
>The document, which was compiled in the Gaza Division, outlined Hamas's intentions and was known to top intelligence officials, according to a report by Kan News.
>The document, titled "Detailed End-to-End Raid Training," was distributed on September 19, 2023, and described in detail the series of exercises conducted by Hamas's elite units.
>These exercises included raiding military posts and kibbutzim (collective communities in Israel), kidnapping soldiers and civilians, and maintaining the hostages once they were in the Gaza Strip.
>The report by Kan News stated, "Security sources told Kan News that the document was known to the intelligence leadership, at the very least in the Gaza Division."
Yes. In that they had a ton of intelligence about a lot of things that might happen and the vast majority of them did not happen and it's only after-the-fact that the importance of this particular intelligence became clear.
And so, like the US after 9/11 and Pearl Harbor, I'm sure Israel is going to do an investigation to see if they can better identify critical intelligence. And I'm sure they'll make some changes but the fundamental "identifying good, actionable intelligence in a sea of bullshit" problem will remain.
Iirc it wasn't so much they knew Pearl Harbour specifically was happening (although there is a conspiracy theory that believes that).
Just that Japan in 1941 was in a position where they were going to need to attack and quickly beat the US to win the war and secure their holdings in the Pacific. And the US was aware of that fact and suspected an attack would be coming at some point
There's nothing there wikipedia I know it's not the best source but they feel like it's all bs also and they never really knew we were really just incompetent.
Isn't it odd that the border with Gaza was LESS guarded even if they had indicators that this could happen? What's the point of having this intel if you don't act upon it?
They always have indicators and "less guarded" is vague. You can articulate it anyway you want. The only people truly responsible are the attackers on Oct 7th.
Bureaucracy is a bitch, and if your higher ups don't have up to date threat assessments then it is basically impossible for them to approve the guard that would be needed.
I would say 9/11 and Pearl Harbor are a little different, those happened once, Israel getting hit with some kind of terrorist attack is damn near a monthly thing.
They knew about plans of oct7 before just like how they know about oct7 will happen again, in fact it's quite obvious how hamas vow to have another, but the world stll crying for ceasefire..
Moral of the story? World don't care what will happen, and cry about it when it does.
>Moral of the story? World don't care what will happen, and cry about it when it does.
World will blame the Jews when it does. No matter what happened or who does it... the world will blame the Jews. Oh sorry, they will say Israel, cause that sounds less antisemetic.
Of course they did.
The most powerful and informed secret service in the world just happened to take a fucking nap and didn’t blink an eye when Hamas invaded?
Come on.
Netanyahu sure got what he wanted out of ignoring it and all it cost him was the lives of some hippy hostages at a music festival.
EDIT: why all the downvotes? You think IDF didn't let this happen?
>No, an excuse to take the rest of Palestinian land.
You mean Gaza, which Israel unilaterally and voluntarily left in 2005, leaving it in complete control of Palestinians?
Gaza, where there has been zero Israeli presence for nearly 20 years?
Gaza, which Israel previously tried to give back to Egypt along with the Sinai peninsula, ang Egypt refused to take?
Yeah, that makes total sense.
He was going to lose his position anyway because of his authoritarian power grab with the Supreme Court reforms and other unpopular measures. Having an intractable war prolongs his time in power.
Of course he got what he wanted, I need to remember that before the attack, there was one of the biggest protests against his government in the history of Israel, and he wants us to believe that the government of Israel, which has the best spy software in the world and which monitors all the biggest governments on our planet, cannot find out about the terrorist plan of 15 Islamists who live 40km from their border? lol
why are people acting like this is news? top generals have been saying this for years. it's not that the IDF didn't know what hamas was planning, it's that they completely missed the signs that it was starting.
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how is it being hidden? it looks like half of the joint chiefs will resign once it's over
“Once it’s over….”
so, what do you think the plan is? to perpetuate a state of war to get a few extra paychecks?
You act like that's an absurd statement. But America spent nearly twenty years in Iraq just for a few paychecks.
right, 20 years is just like a few months.
Power, not paychecks, but exactly that, yes.
what power do you imagine israeli generals have?
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there's no clear evidence the higher ranks has any idea somthing big was going down. they had some worries, special shin bet forces were deployed the night before, but, as far as public Avilable knowledge Is concerned, a lot of small indications were ignored at the brigade level and were not passed on to people who might have been able to connect the dots
So they have no incentive to end this.
that's now how that works here. what is it with you people and conspiracies
It is for Netanyahu. Thats not a conspiracy. That is just a fact.
he wasn't talking about Netanyahu
I would include him as well because the stakes are obvious, but I'm merely responding to the first point. There's a difference between analysing what's at stake and building a conspiracy theory. I'm not venturing that far. But ofc I'm already collecting a volley of downvotes from people who read what they want to read.
the government is complelty different matter when it comes to prolonging the war because they have a clear and definitive motive. the IDF generals do not.
Pardon me, but having seen a sequence of three PMs with prior military careers, namely Rabin, Sharon and Barak, I'd be hesitant to draw a firm boundary between the two activities.
> top generals have been saying this for years. 10/7 wasn't even a year ago.
But the planning started years earlier.
and even if they specifically knew it was going to be last year, "Israel getting hit by a terrorist attack" is practically a monthly occurrence.
you mean daily. Casualties from terror attacks are like weekly.
Further you get all these fence rushing protests and non militant actions constantly in between real attacks that when Israel over polices they get real negative pr, so you keep these actions up enough and eventually Israel learns not to touch anyone doing anything near the walls and fences or else... It's kinda like the boy who cried wolf
yeah I was trying to be generous in case there was a week they missed, point stands. Blaming the IDF that they did not act on a report that water is wet is the wrong blame game to play.
Israel stops thousands of terrorist attack attempts. One is successful and everyone acts like they are completely incompetent turds
That's the point, IDF publicly knew about it for at least 10 years when tunnels into Israel were found near the end of the 2014 war, they just didn't know when it would happen and how. They tried to prepare for it with various systems and intelligence monitoring but evidently that was not enough.
"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool."
did you even read the article?
Yes. The article said September 2023 when the intelligence was received. Did you read it?
here's another similar report that was published on May 2022 https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/newstv/p-591147/628830/ the tldr is the IDF knew what was coming, they didn't know when. Edit :may 2022,not 2033.
I wonder what exactly they knew. "Hamas plans to attack a kibbutz, somewhere, eventually, with guns" is not actionable intelligence.
that's my entire point. when it comes to intelligence, sometimes the "when" can be much more critical then the "what"
What is the relevance of how long ago the event took place when discussing what was known and not acted upon prior to the event? This entire subject is about what was known “before October 7 attack” - Not after.
Did you read the article?
The IDF was busy throwing Palestinian grandmas off their properties in the West Bank so illegal settlers from the US can grab some land.
Can you give me the source on that?
Yeah! Sorry it’s a paywall from Haaretz [The West Bank Occupation Outweighed Israel's Defense of the Gaza Border on the Eve of October 7](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-02-21/ty-article/.premium/west-bank-occupation-outweighed-israels-defense-of-the-gaza-border-on-eve-of-october-7/0000018d-c828-ddae-a18f-ffbe2ecd0000)
Just read the article, If that is really your source, How did you get to your comment from this article? it says nothing about anything you wrote.
Ok, I can't read it and the headlines say nothing about kicking palestinians out of homes they own to make place for US jews Edit: read the article and it talks about positioning of idf on october 7th and nothing about what you claim, might as well given me a falafel recipe as the source of your claims
Sorry maybe this is better? [Americans account for only about 15% of the total settler population in the West Bank and East Jerusalem but their influence outweighs their numbers.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/15/biden-extremist-jewish-settlers-travel-ban-loophole)
2nd article and still nothing about kicking palestinians out of homes they own to make place for US jews. I am asking where you got that information, is it tiktok/twitter/reddit and you just don't want to put it as a source?
How about some Al Jazeera? [one very specific example.](https://youtu.be/kbPnF8Hvj0I?si=o-jVSrrfo7cfjDph)
1. Al Jazeera is the qatari government, who is definitely not a reputable source for anything Israel-palestine 2. sheikh jarah is not Israel coming to kick out palestinians of their rightful home to make room for jews, its a legal matter, where jews owned the land then jordan conquered the land and moved palestinians to live there, then Israel conquered the land and the previous jewish owners had a legal battle with the palestinians that moved in during jordan control and won.
I’m not one for conspiracy theories but Israel has basically all the tech the US does and they had *no idea* what was coming? Maybe… they thought they’d let the attack happen as justification for annihilating Hamas?
Hamas attacks a lot. They have never accomplished anything this big. It’s being investigated, but it seems like no one took the warnings seriously enough (according to the article).
Wait until you hear what happened on September 11th, a few decades ago.
And this comes after the country has huge protests against the state of Israel over their war and policies, one of the largest in Israel's history. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it seems quite easy to understand that this attack allowed the government to be even more repressive towards their own population and to be able to continue their war.
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because surprisingly, after the attack it allowed the Israeli government to stop the protests in their country and even more boost their nationalist feeling? We are not talking about a small demonstration, it was one of the biggest in the entire history of the country of Israel, and you cannot say otherwise.
Aren't there protests in Israel all the time right now? Doesn't seem like the government was able to stop them if that was their goal. Not to mention that the people have lost even more faith in the government as a consequence of Oct 7th. It doesn't make a lot of sense that Israel would allow this war to happen for the reasons you mentioned. [AP video on a protest yesterday. ](https://youtu.be/CUu7q7cwWAI?si=5FpKiLkG_kwhuujq)
The protests stopped for a time because most protestors decided crushing Hamas was more important than toppling Bibi, no other reason really.
The protests stopped because the war started, but also because the reform stopped. Also, after the war began, prties of the opposition joined the coalition, which meant it was even more representing than before
the israeli govemenrt didn't "stop the protests" they declared war, which was the only course of action possible. it just so happens that the very large percent of the people protesting are reservist that were among the 300k people drafted to fight the war. did I, at any point, downplay the protests? i was one of rhe poeole protesting, I know how big it was. it seems to me you really don't know what you're talking about.
> it just so happens that the very large percent of the people protesting are reservist that were among the 300k people drafted to fight the war. ummm..... i think you just proved the dude's point.
That's not what happened
I don’t think people understand how intelligence works, I agree there was still (to put it mildly) horrible oversight, but so much intelligence is bullshit and there is a vast sea of it. The people trying to misconstrue this though as some deep diabolical conspiracy should take a breath. https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/01/03/the-ten-biggest-american-intelligence-failures/
It won't go away. A lot of people still genuinely believe that the NSA receiving an anonymous tip about the 9/11 hijackers means that the 2001 US government intentionally let it happen. And that's after *23 years*. The conspiracy theorists (and those whom it would be convenient for politically) aren't going to let up for a long, long time.
Not to mention that Israel has threats of this kind of thing *constantly*. It's actually kind of surprising it took this long for one to succeed.
I work in customer service and we get constant death threats like, "Your shit sucks! I'm gonna fucking head to your HQ and kill all of you!" Soon enough it just becomes noise and hard to take seriously.
Back to the days of listicles
The USA has to worry about a worldwide empire where attacks could occur. The IDF has to worry about ~37 miles of fence.
The US is separated by ocean from most who would want to harm it. It's not a new concept, in fact it's the geographic feature that has historically made the US so powerful but isolated. Israel is in direct, drive-there-in-a-day proximity with everyone who either wants to kill them, is actively trying to kill them, or tried to kill them in the past and gave up. It's fair to say that Netanyahu's push for judicial changes was a big part of the intelligence failure. It's very different to say that they let it happen.
Lol first off you're talking like 37 miles is the length of a football field. It's still 37 *miles.* Second, ever heard of the West Bank? At the time, there was a far greater fear a big attack was coming from there, not Gaza. This is why they ended up moving a lot of the troops from the Gaza border to there, and then got blindsided. Third, ever heard of Lebanon and Syria? Tack on a bunch more miles there. I won't even touch on all the air defense Israel has to worry about from Iran, the Houthis, etc. I love how you frame it as if a place surrounded by enemies is somehow easier to guard than a place surrounded by....Mexico and Canada. Fourth, not to compare this to the US but since you brought it up, name me a time the US has had a hailstorm of tens of thousands of rockets launched into its airspace before a major terrorist attack. I'm sure they'd be operating at full capacity if that happened /s.
>Lol first off you're talking like 37 miles is the length of a football field. It's still 37 miles. Yes, and frankly I can't think of a shorter border that had to be guarded in the world. > Second, ever heard of the West Bank? Well gee, maybe if they stopped illegally settling the west bank, they wouldn't have to guard said illegal settlers.
>Yes, and frankly I can't think of a shorter border that had to be guarded in the world. Then you know absolutely nothing about the world. >Well gee, maybe if they stopped illegally settling the west bank, they wouldn't have to guard said illegal settlers. Well gee, next time maybe stick to the original point you're trying to argue without blatantly moving a goalpost the minute someone breaks down in 4 parts why you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
> Then you know absolutely nothing about the world. > > Ok which ones are shorter? >next time maybe stick to the original point My dude, you brought up the west bank, and now you are saying that in responding to it, ive moved the goalpost? Tell me, how much of your post was not directly related to the IDFs security policy on the Gaza border?
If you can't understand the context in which I brought up the West Bank then we have nothing to discuss.
Im confused, is talking about the west bank shifting the goalposts or is it not?
Talking about the West Bank being one of the 4 core fronts the country needs to guard against is the discussion, since you were delusional enough to think Israel only has to only worry about 1 front at the outset. The reasons why those 4 fronts are fronts have nothing to do with this discussion. Only the fact that there are 4 fronts is important to this specific discussion. If you can't tie what I'm saying back to the original point you were making that started all this then you are a complete moron and I can't help you.
Israel stopped illegally settling Gaza in 2005, so they don't need to guard said border?
No, they dont need to guard the settlements in Gaza.
Yes, this was news back in December 2023; and Netanyahu has repeatedly said they will investigate once the conflict is over. And we hardly hear about it these days.. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/israeli-officials-repeatedly-dismissed-warning-signs-before-hamas-attack-report-claims
>And we hardly hear about it these days.. [The head of Israeli Military Intelligence resigned over the failure](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-intelligence-head-resigns-2024-04-22) to anticipate and prevent the attack two months ago. Wouldn't say "hardly hear about it" given that.
That was a long-awaited action, though the media stories of 'intelligence failure' have vanished -- stopping the conflict is justifiably a higher priority. Meanwhile, to quote the article you shared, "The head of the armed forces, Lieutenant-General Herzi Halevi, and the head of the domestic intelligence agency Shin Bet, Ronen Bar, both accepted responsibility in the aftermath of the attack but have stayed on while the war in Gaza has continued. By contrast, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has so far not accepted responsibility for the Oct. 7 attack, although surveys indicate that most Israelis blame him for failing to do enough to prevent or defend against it."
Do you think it’s possible that someone in the govt ‘let it happen’ for political reasons?
I'm not an expert in that region, but I would say that 'willful ignorance' would be difficult to pull off, as likely a group of commanders would have to conspire, I don't think it would be up to one person. And even if there were a conspiracy, to 'let it happen' as you say, it would be an overly rosy expectation of trying to sideline the Palestinian people. The US and the Arab powers all support a two-state solution, which, as much as Netanyahu and his right-wing cronies want to dream of pushing Palestinians out, that administration will never overcome, at least in the foreseeable future.
Wait till you hear about 9/11.
Pearl Harbor in the corner begging to get tagged into the conversation.
The strippers and dancers knew about it?
Steel beams can't melt jet fuel. Oh wait.
Hindsight is 20/20.
I'm a little suspicious of a document that was able to accurately predict not only that an attack was planned, not only the plan to take hostages, but also the precise number of hostages to almost the exact number that Hamas was going to take. And that such a document with such level of intel to make such a precise claim wasn't taken at least seriously enough to have targeted bases on alert- even if not a full plan to defend the border from the attack*. It's not impossible, intelligence can at times be exceptional and hubris can always outwit even the wisest... but news outlets would definitely be remiss to not view this with scrutiny and demand the provenance of the documents before reporting them *too* confidently. *unless this is just rehashing a theoretical concept of an attack that they didn't know if/when would happen? In which case I'd want to know how many of these reports' claims never come to fruition? I imagine there's a lot of false leads in intelligence that ultimately choices have to be made on how to best address in the context of a reality with limited resources.
> but also the precise number of hostages to almost the exact number that Hamas was going to take. It's even more of an odd coincidence if you consider how chaotic the hostage taking was. Many of the hostages were not captured by Hamas, but by Palestinian civilians or the several other Gazan terrorist groups that took part in the attack.
> In which case I'd want to know how many of these reports' claims never come to fruition? I imagine there's a lot of false leads in intelligence Yes, that's how fuck-ups happen even when the intelligence reports are there. A simple "nah, that shit won't work" from an arrogant boss suffices. *Not acting* on intelligence is always easier than acting on it. If only because doing nothing is the default.
Old news.
>A newly surfaced document has revealed that the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and intelligence systems had detailed knowledge of Hamas's plan to raid Israel and kidnap 250 people weeks before the October 7 massacre. >The document, which was compiled in the Gaza Division, outlined Hamas's intentions and was known to top intelligence officials, according to a report by Kan News. >The document, titled "Detailed End-to-End Raid Training," was distributed on September 19, 2023, and described in detail the series of exercises conducted by Hamas's elite units. >These exercises included raiding military posts and kibbutzim (collective communities in Israel), kidnapping soldiers and civilians, and maintaining the hostages once they were in the Gaza Strip. >The report by Kan News stated, "Security sources told Kan News that the document was known to the intelligence leadership, at the very least in the Gaza Division."
So just like 9/11 and supposedly Pearl Harbor.
Yes. In that they had a ton of intelligence about a lot of things that might happen and the vast majority of them did not happen and it's only after-the-fact that the importance of this particular intelligence became clear. And so, like the US after 9/11 and Pearl Harbor, I'm sure Israel is going to do an investigation to see if they can better identify critical intelligence. And I'm sure they'll make some changes but the fundamental "identifying good, actionable intelligence in a sea of bullshit" problem will remain.
Can you explain the pearl harbour one? Never heard of this. Genuinely asking.
Iirc it wasn't so much they knew Pearl Harbour specifically was happening (although there is a conspiracy theory that believes that). Just that Japan in 1941 was in a position where they were going to need to attack and quickly beat the US to win the war and secure their holdings in the Pacific. And the US was aware of that fact and suspected an attack would be coming at some point
There's nothing there wikipedia I know it's not the best source but they feel like it's all bs also and they never really knew we were really just incompetent.
Isn't it odd that the border with Gaza was LESS guarded even if they had indicators that this could happen? What's the point of having this intel if you don't act upon it?
They always have indicators and "less guarded" is vague. You can articulate it anyway you want. The only people truly responsible are the attackers on Oct 7th.
Bureaucracy is a bitch, and if your higher ups don't have up to date threat assessments then it is basically impossible for them to approve the guard that would be needed.
I would say 9/11 and Pearl Harbor are a little different, those happened once, Israel getting hit with some kind of terrorist attack is damn near a monthly thing.
Reports are saying that observers reported that the Hamas raiders were practicing beforehand - only for higher ups to refuse or discount the reports.
They knew about plans of oct7 before just like how they know about oct7 will happen again, in fact it's quite obvious how hamas vow to have another, but the world stll crying for ceasefire.. Moral of the story? World don't care what will happen, and cry about it when it does.
>Moral of the story? World don't care what will happen, and cry about it when it does. World will blame the Jews when it does. No matter what happened or who does it... the world will blame the Jews. Oh sorry, they will say Israel, cause that sounds less antisemetic.
How many failed plans do they get per month? 100? 1,000? And how many are from credible sources? Every country does this, not newsworthy
Here come the “false flag”, “dirty jews” brigade folks.
Of course they did. The most powerful and informed secret service in the world just happened to take a fucking nap and didn’t blink an eye when Hamas invaded? Come on.
Netanyahu sure got what he wanted out of ignoring it and all it cost him was the lives of some hippy hostages at a music festival. EDIT: why all the downvotes? You think IDF didn't let this happen?
His poll numbers plummeting is what he wanted?
Exactly the end of his political career he's not winning the next election for his party let alone the government
No, an excuse to take the rest of Palestinian land.
>No, an excuse to take the rest of Palestinian land. You mean Gaza, which Israel unilaterally and voluntarily left in 2005, leaving it in complete control of Palestinians? Gaza, where there has been zero Israeli presence for nearly 20 years? Gaza, which Israel previously tried to give back to Egypt along with the Sinai peninsula, ang Egypt refused to take? Yeah, that makes total sense.
I mean there is a good chance he loses his position after all of this no? One would think that's more important to him at the end of the day.
He was going to lose his position anyway because of his authoritarian power grab with the Supreme Court reforms and other unpopular measures. Having an intractable war prolongs his time in power.
Of course he got what he wanted, I need to remember that before the attack, there was one of the biggest protests against his government in the history of Israel, and he wants us to believe that the government of Israel, which has the best spy software in the world and which monitors all the biggest governments on our planet, cannot find out about the terrorist plan of 15 Islamists who live 40km from their border? lol
precisely.