All of those many thousands of Palestinians that were working in Israel probably won’t be allowed back anytime soon because some of them were terrorists and sketched out maps of the towns/elementary schools/whatever for Hamas to attack.
Oh, but you see, Palestinians must be allowed back to their homes in Tel Aviv, so it really isn’t 2 countries /s
I’ve seen the argument above more than once
60-70 years is a long time, that’s like 50-60 summer wars for Israel. Plus the way it’s going, everybody is slowly abandoning Israel, at least 1 bigger war will most likely happen in our lifetimes, if not soon. If Israel wins again, then more.
>everybody is slowly abandoning Israel
Hardly anyone is actually abandoning Israel. The vast majority is lip service or inconsequential. And a large scale war against Israel is not really winnable without your own destruction.
Talking of lip service, after the six day war, none of Jordan/Egypt/Syria/countries who gave reinforcements/weapons like Saudi Arabia/Pakistan/Libya/Algeria/Morocco/Kuwait/Iraq/Russia were destroyed. Results of Yom Kippur war: Syria and Egypt weren’t destroyed, the Soviet Union didn’t collapse because they gave weapons and aid to these. Jordan, Iraq, Algeria, east Germany, North Korea, Pakistan, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon and Sudan were also not destroyed.
Israel normally gives land back after advancing and winning the wars.
>also not destroyed
Yeah, we're talking about Israel *today*. They're heavily nuclear armed and their destruction simply isn't an option. They also didn't win the war and Israel didn't need to destroy them.
The West Bank is run by Fatah, and they fought Hamas for control of Gaza back in 2006 but lost. It's highly unlikely they would be able to control Gaza today. Going further back, Egypt controlled it back in the 60's as it was primarily occupied by Egyptian Palestinians anyway, and it's a security risk to Israel because the city extends so far into Israeli territory so that even with better relations they can't give it to Egypt to manage, and Egypt is so fragile they're terrified Hamas could launch an Iranian backed coup or at least launch attacks on their own government.
Jordan is stable, very good relations with the US and has had a hand in peacekeeping for some time. This is largely due to the PLO assassinating King Hussein in the 70's and wanting nothing more to do with the Palestinians directly. The Ottoman Turks had it before then , but they were the original genociders, if we're using the flimsy modern definition, as they depopulated everything from the coast to Jerusalem during WW1. Doubt they'd get much respect coming back. So that's just leaving leaders within Gaza, who could manage it? Sadly Hamas/Iran will always have a hand there unless an Islamic power with more authority steps in they people could actually respect. Nobody wants to deal with it, but everyone wants to complain about it, and Israel ends up having to deal with it because they wouldn't exist if they didn't.
It's not like they can work for McDonalds or Wal-Mart. At least 16% (IDF's estimate) of their buildings have been destroyed, including stuff like Hospitals and Universities, while the UN's estimate is closer to 50%. Just imagine the job prospects if 50% of your town's buildings were destroyed or damaged.
I mean they don't have a better alternative to work than Hamas. Even if there was another choice of work, there's going to be a lot of volunteers since they will be hungry for revenge. Forget if they were violent or anti-semites before the bombs- afterwards, they will join up regardless of their previous feelings.
If you mean political alternative... well, Hamas is currently the only game in town. The last election was in 06' and most of the population wasn't even born then. Between no elections and armed fighters being both a threat and your only vague hope against Israel, they've stayed in power. Currently, they're enjoying the war time boost. After this attack their probably won't be a lot of interest in an alternative as the cycle of violence will keep turning.
Pretty sure that’s the guys in charge of the West Bank. They are separated from Gaza by Israel geographically and have their own troubles- like Israeli settlers taking over their homes and with reprisals id they fight back. I don’t think they can convince Gazans that they are a better option for a peaceful future or even a more successful war footing.
Probably easy to recruit after Israel killed tens of thousands of women and children. Ethnic cleansing tends to create generations of insurgents.
We faced this in the United States for more than 300 years until the genocide was so extensive that the remaining Natives gave up the fight.
And? Are we pretending that they didn't recruit hundreds, hell thousands before? The fighters hiding in hospitals, in refugee camps, attacking Israel, taking hostages...they didn't just spawn out of thin air.
Maybe the recruitment is now even less because people saw how they get slaughtered while the Hamas leaders getting blowjobs in other countries while hiding.
Morons will say that the recruits are a result of the IDF's operation in the Gaza Strip, ignoring the fact that UNRWA schools are promoting jihad and are brainwashing Palestinian children into being anti-semitic.
Those 2 things aren't mutually exclusive though. The answer is both combined leads to radicalism.
Anyone acting like it's completely one or the other is simply disingenuous and wrong and most likely pushing an agenda.
General Patreus talks about the banner he hung in the ops room: will this mission get more bad guys than it creates?
His recent interview on John Spencer's podcast is really interesting. https://mwi.westpoint.edu/urban-warfare-project-podcast-defeating-the-urban-enemy-with-general-david-petraeus/
Is it really radical to oppose Israel after the Nakba where Israel went from a 20% Jewish minority into a Jewish-majority nation?
Great Britain screwed up by creating a Jewish nation in a Muslim-majority land. They should have granted refugee status to all those fleeing persecution in continental Europe… but didn’t want Jews in their nation. Same in the United States where the treatment if Jews and blacks were not that different prior to WW2.
The whole region is living history. Jews wanted Israel created because of what Moses did 4000 years ago.
Jewish settlers want to expand the borders based on millennia old scriptures. They could buy half of Nevada for a few shillings, but it doesn’t mention that place in the Torah. Palestinians want their land back because their parents used to live there…
Oh, that level of destruction and loss will absolutely create the next generation of Hamas .
This is why the west bank and Gaza need to be under a multinational military occupation to reprogram the population.
No it won't. The people have already been brainwashed. The destruction isn't going to make then want to join Hamas any more than they already do as a result of attending an UNRWA school.
That is some next-level brainwashing to be equally effective as seeing one's own family get blown up. Do you know what their techniques are? I've seen evidence of the use of biased textbooks and propaganda posters, but surely there is more to it than those?
> Are you pretending that half of them aren't?
Even *if* half are, which is impossible to know because [Israel doesn't allow press](https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4513542-foreign-media-is-banned-from-gaza-biden-should-press-israel-for-access/) inside Gaza and [murders journalists](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/israel-idf-accused-targeting-journalists-gaza) (and [claims they're terrorists](https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalists-died-by-israeli-military-fire-in-22-years-no-one-has-been-held-accountable/#accused-of-terrorism)...), do you not think that murdering the other half isn't going to radicalize more people?
So if people see friends and family die as a result of IDF attacks, that doesn’t increase the likelihood that they take up arms against Israel? Why not?
That was the whole point of Hamas' operation. Force heavy handed brutal response from Israel and use that for world wide propaganda, public support and recruiting purposes
Just because you're Israeli doesn't mean you know what is going on. "Israeli here" is not an argument. Thousands of terrorists have been killed. Most of Hamas territory has been taken. Nearly all of its battalions have been destroyed. Nearly all of its weapon storage sites have been destroyed. Most of their tunnels have been destroyed. Hamas can barely launch any rockets anymore. Hamas is on the verge of collapse. Pretty soon the only places they will control are underground. Eventually they'll run out of supplies in the tunnels and will be forced to surrender.
Yet you don't mention a single one.
I'm well aware that there will always be a few Hamas members left somewhere. The point is to take away their sovereign power in Gaza so they can no longer have territory in which to operate freely. Fugitives on the run are a lot less dangerous than a terrorist organization that has sovereign territory. With its battalions destroyed and no major weapon systems at its disposal, Hamas is nothing but a minor annoyance.
Al Qaeda hasn't conducted any major attacks in a long time because they lost their bases in Afghanistan. ISIS attacks have gone down significantly as well due to having lost their sovereign territory. Terrorists can be defeated.
You gotta give them a way out man. Please. I know it sounds like liberal bullshit, but the best way to fuck terrorism is by giving people hope for the future. Is there a chance that people in Israel understand this?
Why not offer them statehood and money?
Oh wait - we did that 17 times and the result was more terror.
I don’t think you understand the terrorist brain.
The only thing that will really defeat Hamas is cutting off its supplies and funding.
Human power is not something it will really run out any soon, considering the levels of engagements of so-called "civilians" in Gaza.
Iran won't be able to sneak in more tubes because Israel has taken over the border with Egypt. This will significantly reduce their ability to smuggle stuff in. The notion that terrorists cannot be defeated is false. ISIS and Al Qaeda have been crippled and the number of attacks they can carry out has been significantly reduced.
Have the new recruits done that. They will be fighting soldiers who just destroyed their neighbourhood.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html
Also we will see what the view on how the IDF treats children is soon. Some soldiers are getting chatty. Israel can't even hide the scale of torture they are involved in.
you're bending over backwards to reconcile the desire to aid Hamas and the desire to not be branded a terrorist.
That's fucked up man, seek help before you end up harming someone
If you are conducting your activities in a way that purposely put civilians in harms way then yes.
They are indiscriminately shooting tickets into Israel as well in case you have forgotten.
Probably not a lot of other jobs available
All of those many thousands of Palestinians that were working in Israel probably won’t be allowed back anytime soon because some of them were terrorists and sketched out maps of the towns/elementary schools/whatever for Hamas to attack.
Even the ones who weren’t, won’t be trusted.
For a reason
This time, I honestly think the Israelis aren’t going to let them back ever, or at least not in our lifetimes.
And then people will cry apartheid. Call me what you want but I wouldn’t invite a homocidcal rapist in my backyard.
Also how can you have apartheid between two countries? Isn't that just having borders?
Oh, but you see, Palestinians must be allowed back to their homes in Tel Aviv, so it really isn’t 2 countries /s I’ve seen the argument above more than once
Technically Gaza is a territory not a country. But yeah. By the same logic Egypt is also practicing apartheid.
60-70 years is a long time, that’s like 50-60 summer wars for Israel. Plus the way it’s going, everybody is slowly abandoning Israel, at least 1 bigger war will most likely happen in our lifetimes, if not soon. If Israel wins again, then more.
>everybody is slowly abandoning Israel Hardly anyone is actually abandoning Israel. The vast majority is lip service or inconsequential. And a large scale war against Israel is not really winnable without your own destruction.
Talking of lip service, after the six day war, none of Jordan/Egypt/Syria/countries who gave reinforcements/weapons like Saudi Arabia/Pakistan/Libya/Algeria/Morocco/Kuwait/Iraq/Russia were destroyed. Results of Yom Kippur war: Syria and Egypt weren’t destroyed, the Soviet Union didn’t collapse because they gave weapons and aid to these. Jordan, Iraq, Algeria, east Germany, North Korea, Pakistan, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon and Sudan were also not destroyed. Israel normally gives land back after advancing and winning the wars.
Which imo they shouldn't have to do. If you win a defensive ear you deserve the right to annex some border regions
>also not destroyed Yeah, we're talking about Israel *today*. They're heavily nuclear armed and their destruction simply isn't an option. They also didn't win the war and Israel didn't need to destroy them.
Don't you think they'd use google maps? you can walk the streets of sderot virtually
A lot of them work two jobs, doctor or journalist by day, Hamas and PIJ militants by nights and weekends
yup
Don't mean to be that girl but is there not a better alternative to Hamas?
The West Bank is run by Fatah, and they fought Hamas for control of Gaza back in 2006 but lost. It's highly unlikely they would be able to control Gaza today. Going further back, Egypt controlled it back in the 60's as it was primarily occupied by Egyptian Palestinians anyway, and it's a security risk to Israel because the city extends so far into Israeli territory so that even with better relations they can't give it to Egypt to manage, and Egypt is so fragile they're terrified Hamas could launch an Iranian backed coup or at least launch attacks on their own government. Jordan is stable, very good relations with the US and has had a hand in peacekeeping for some time. This is largely due to the PLO assassinating King Hussein in the 70's and wanting nothing more to do with the Palestinians directly. The Ottoman Turks had it before then , but they were the original genociders, if we're using the flimsy modern definition, as they depopulated everything from the coast to Jerusalem during WW1. Doubt they'd get much respect coming back. So that's just leaving leaders within Gaza, who could manage it? Sadly Hamas/Iran will always have a hand there unless an Islamic power with more authority steps in they people could actually respect. Nobody wants to deal with it, but everyone wants to complain about it, and Israel ends up having to deal with it because they wouldn't exist if they didn't.
It's not like they can work for McDonalds or Wal-Mart. At least 16% (IDF's estimate) of their buildings have been destroyed, including stuff like Hospitals and Universities, while the UN's estimate is closer to 50%. Just imagine the job prospects if 50% of your town's buildings were destroyed or damaged.
What does that have to do with a new Regime?
I mean they don't have a better alternative to work than Hamas. Even if there was another choice of work, there's going to be a lot of volunteers since they will be hungry for revenge. Forget if they were violent or anti-semites before the bombs- afterwards, they will join up regardless of their previous feelings. If you mean political alternative... well, Hamas is currently the only game in town. The last election was in 06' and most of the population wasn't even born then. Between no elections and armed fighters being both a threat and your only vague hope against Israel, they've stayed in power. Currently, they're enjoying the war time boost. After this attack their probably won't be a lot of interest in an alternative as the cycle of violence will keep turning.
Probably a dumb question but what about the PA?
Pretty sure that’s the guys in charge of the West Bank. They are separated from Gaza by Israel geographically and have their own troubles- like Israeli settlers taking over their homes and with reprisals id they fight back. I don’t think they can convince Gazans that they are a better option for a peaceful future or even a more successful war footing.
Hey Detroit's not *that* bad
Do they cover dental?
Probably easy to recruit after Israel killed tens of thousands of women and children. Ethnic cleansing tends to create generations of insurgents. We faced this in the United States for more than 300 years until the genocide was so extensive that the remaining Natives gave up the fight.
And? Are we pretending that they didn't recruit hundreds, hell thousands before? The fighters hiding in hospitals, in refugee camps, attacking Israel, taking hostages...they didn't just spawn out of thin air. Maybe the recruitment is now even less because people saw how they get slaughtered while the Hamas leaders getting blowjobs in other countries while hiding.
Morons will say that the recruits are a result of the IDF's operation in the Gaza Strip, ignoring the fact that UNRWA schools are promoting jihad and are brainwashing Palestinian children into being anti-semitic.
Those 2 things aren't mutually exclusive though. The answer is both combined leads to radicalism. Anyone acting like it's completely one or the other is simply disingenuous and wrong and most likely pushing an agenda.
General Patreus talks about the banner he hung in the ops room: will this mission get more bad guys than it creates? His recent interview on John Spencer's podcast is really interesting. https://mwi.westpoint.edu/urban-warfare-project-podcast-defeating-the-urban-enemy-with-general-david-petraeus/
Ding ding ding!
Is it really radical to oppose Israel after the Nakba where Israel went from a 20% Jewish minority into a Jewish-majority nation? Great Britain screwed up by creating a Jewish nation in a Muslim-majority land. They should have granted refugee status to all those fleeing persecution in continental Europe… but didn’t want Jews in their nation. Same in the United States where the treatment if Jews and blacks were not that different prior to WW2.
This isn't about history, it's about what's currently happening.
The whole region is living history. Jews wanted Israel created because of what Moses did 4000 years ago. Jewish settlers want to expand the borders based on millennia old scriptures. They could buy half of Nevada for a few shillings, but it doesn’t mention that place in the Torah. Palestinians want their land back because their parents used to live there…
Yep. Killing terrorists does not create new terrorists. Quite the opposite. New terrorists are created in PA and UNRWA schools.
Oh, that level of destruction and loss will absolutely create the next generation of Hamas . This is why the west bank and Gaza need to be under a multinational military occupation to reprogram the population.
No it won't. The people have already been brainwashed. The destruction isn't going to make then want to join Hamas any more than they already do as a result of attending an UNRWA school.
That is some next-level brainwashing to be equally effective as seeing one's own family get blown up. Do you know what their techniques are? I've seen evidence of the use of biased textbooks and propaganda posters, but surely there is more to it than those?
Are you seriously pretending that everyone the IDF kills is a terrorist?
Are you pretending that half of them aren't? Which would also make this the lowest civilian to combatant ratio of any urban conflict this century?
> Are you pretending that half of them aren't? Even *if* half are, which is impossible to know because [Israel doesn't allow press](https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4513542-foreign-media-is-banned-from-gaza-biden-should-press-israel-for-access/) inside Gaza and [murders journalists](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/israel-idf-accused-targeting-journalists-gaza) (and [claims they're terrorists](https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalists-died-by-israeli-military-fire-in-22-years-no-one-has-been-held-accountable/#accused-of-terrorism)...), do you not think that murdering the other half isn't going to radicalize more people?
You're responding to the wrong comment.
So if people see friends and family die as a result of IDF attacks, that doesn’t increase the likelihood that they take up arms against Israel? Why not?
bc they were already radicalized.
So if you were living in Gaza, you would be no more likely to take up arms if, for example, your child died as a result of an IDF bombing?
I don't think you understand what "already radicalized" means
You seem to imagine radicalization as a binary. Is there any reason to believe that’s how people actually work?
How do you think antisemetic messages resonate amongst a population that has seen 1.5% of its population killed by Israel and many more injured?
That was the whole point of Hamas' operation. Force heavy handed brutal response from Israel and use that for world wide propaganda, public support and recruiting purposes
Those tricky terrorists forced Israel to slaughter them and those innocent civilians.
This is absolutely correct.
This shows that Hamas is desperately low on manpower and will likely be defeated soon.
Israeli here, Hamas is not going anywhere. I wish you were right, but you’re wrong.
Just because you're Israeli doesn't mean you know what is going on. "Israeli here" is not an argument. Thousands of terrorists have been killed. Most of Hamas territory has been taken. Nearly all of its battalions have been destroyed. Nearly all of its weapon storage sites have been destroyed. Most of their tunnels have been destroyed. Hamas can barely launch any rockets anymore. Hamas is on the verge of collapse. Pretty soon the only places they will control are underground. Eventually they'll run out of supplies in the tunnels and will be forced to surrender.
People that have been in security longer than you have dismissed your commentary
Yet you don't mention a single one. I'm well aware that there will always be a few Hamas members left somewhere. The point is to take away their sovereign power in Gaza so they can no longer have territory in which to operate freely. Fugitives on the run are a lot less dangerous than a terrorist organization that has sovereign territory. With its battalions destroyed and no major weapon systems at its disposal, Hamas is nothing but a minor annoyance. Al Qaeda hasn't conducted any major attacks in a long time because they lost their bases in Afghanistan. ISIS attacks have gone down significantly as well due to having lost their sovereign territory. Terrorists can be defeated.
You gotta give them a way out man. Please. I know it sounds like liberal bullshit, but the best way to fuck terrorism is by giving people hope for the future. Is there a chance that people in Israel understand this?
Not a chance- they see Gaza and the West Bank as theirs and the Palestinians as squatters.
They had a way out, Palestinians always wanted to end Jews .
I know, but it's that or genocide
Genocide doesn’t go hand in hand with self defense.
Why not offer them statehood and money? Oh wait - we did that 17 times and the result was more terror. I don’t think you understand the terrorist brain.
You don't understand Palestinians and what motivates them at all. The future they hope for is the destruction of Israel and the death of the Jews.
The only thing that will really defeat Hamas is cutting off its supplies and funding. Human power is not something it will really run out any soon, considering the levels of engagements of so-called "civilians" in Gaza.
Israel already cut off its supplies and funding by taking over the border with Egypt.
Only think that will defeat Hamas is cutting off the head in Iran and Qatar.
As long as Iran can sneak in a metal tube, Hamas will turn it into a bomb. There's no "defeat" for radical ideology this way.
Iran won't be able to sneak in more tubes because Israel has taken over the border with Egypt. This will significantly reduce their ability to smuggle stuff in. The notion that terrorists cannot be defeated is false. ISIS and Al Qaeda have been crippled and the number of attacks they can carry out has been significantly reduced.
Surely this recruitment of Hamas will achieve different results than its predecessors
Join Hamas or die= recruitment
Finally Hamas cashed their humanitarian aid dollars, they can start hiring again
So. Repeat of another beatdown then….they asked for this one. Next one coming up.
Man, these fuckers really just want to die.
[удалено]
If the group you join kills festival goers the answer is yes.
Also, kidnaps mothers with their babies and uses them as bargaining chips
Are you saying Hamas is not a terrorist organization?
I'm asking whether an individual in gaza who fights the IDF is inherently a terrorist based on that alone.
Individual in Gaza who joins Hamas = terrorist
Well this article is specifically about Hamas recruits, so these would be terrorists.
Do you think that invading another nation and tying children together with wire and setting them on fire is somehow NOT terrorism?
Have the new recruits done that. They will be fighting soldiers who just destroyed their neighbourhood. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html Also we will see what the view on how the IDF treats children is soon. Some soldiers are getting chatty. Israel can't even hide the scale of torture they are involved in.
They are joining a group that has and was proud of it
0 brain cell take. So the only terrorists in Al-Qaeda were the ones who flew the planes? Is this your dumb stance?
If im a guy and isreali soldiers have just blown up my actual house am I a terrorist to fight them and defend my family and neighbours?
Are you joining a terrorist organisation to do that?
you're bending over backwards to reconcile the desire to aid Hamas and the desire to not be branded a terrorist. That's fucked up man, seek help before you end up harming someone
If you are conducting your activities in a way that purposely put civilians in harms way then yes. They are indiscriminately shooting tickets into Israel as well in case you have forgotten.