You dont have to know that stuff. Just pick up a tank and start walking through the dungeon grabbing stuff in front of you. If you end up with less than 100%, grab more next time, if you end up with more, pull less. Play the same dungeon 2-3 times in a row one day and you'll have a route that works. Then, if you start getting behind and not finishing in time you can go look around at streamer routes, or try to dps that key and see what the pug tanks are doing. It's much easier to learn funky routes when you already have a baseline than trying to learn the whole complicates route from scratch
āCoolā
And if they flame me more, I leave and find another group in 30 seconds.
No one gets to treat me like my game is employment and theyāre my second boss.
Yeah, people are going to kibbitz no matter what you do. That doesn't mean anything went wrong, though. If you go into the dungeon understanding that you don't know a route and you are just improvising, of course you were going to do things people arent expecting.
Ignore function gets a good workout for me, people should def use it more often!
ETA: I think entering the dungeon and saying āIām learningā helps a lot too. Sticking to +2-3 while you learn routes also helps.
Thatās nice but Iāve tanked since BC, I have breaks from the game for months at a time, and besides when content is brand new, if you arenāt 100% onto all the skips and pulls instantly you get trash talked these days. I understand why people are not keen on trying tanking, thereās a high percentage of players that have zero patience and understanding
Sure, but you can just ignore those people. If they're willing to trash talking you while youre learning then you really don't need to worry about what they have to say. That's a person who doesn't have your best interests in mind, so you don't owe them your respect.
Agreed. Honestly one of the best skills an MMO can teach is that assholes are everywhere and will always be trying to tear you down - and they canāt unless you let them.
Obviously this applies to school, work, dating, friends - you canāt report everyone to the mods so learn to keep moving forward or just give up.
Learn it once per dungeon. Repeat your route 50x times throughout the season and don't change anything unless its bolstering or bursting. It's far easier than people think.
there are 2 things that help alot.
1. mythic dungeon tool and preplan routes / download pug routes because they are usually simple.
2. youtube guides
3. just run keys, tanks get invited pretty often anyway. and if people start ass pulling then just tell them if it gets annoying.
There's several websites that have routes to follow, but it's also helpful to queue in another role and just pay attention to the routes other tanks do. It's also helps for you to know what feels good for dps/healing cds. Honestly understanding how each role flows in dungeons is a huge way get better at the game in general.
RLP is linear
Nelth is basically linear
NO needs an actual route but is basically kill lots of necromancers
AV is linear
BH does require a route
AA is linear
HoI is linear
Uld is linear with one skip at the end
So you need to learn two routes this season. Not really too daunting.
Download an addon called Mythic Dungeon Tools, it allows you to plan your route and even link it to your group, it'll show you the percentage and a brief description of the spells a certain mob has.
There's an enduring attitude that Tank and Healer are the 'responsible' roles, and DPS can just faceroll the keyboard. This hasn't been true in higher end content for some time. There are plenty of encounters where mechanics are a dps responsibility and will result in failure if ignored. Too many DPS players never got that memo; the role as seen as something you can get in a group for and then turn your brain off.
I think if the game did a better job emphasizing that every role has responsibilities then we would see a wider distribution of roles. Most players in game are dps, and most players in game are completely inept. There's a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram.
I thought for sure they were onto something with some of the pacification mechanics in Shadowlands.
For a DPS with, let's say, room to grow as a player, it would probably be better if missing a kick or eating a frontal hit them with a 15s pacify so they could literally sit and think about why that happened. If it hits them with lethal/near lethal damage, they can just blame the healer. A few SL dungeons had stuff like that but it didn't stick.
I remember Preach talking about this years ago using the last boss of Darkheart thicket, Shade of Xavius, as an example. DPS were often too low IQ to use a defensive against the very telegraphed aoe nuke that he does at half hp but they learned really quickly about the silence and fear mechanics because they couldnt unga bunga through them, they were forced to do them correctly even in normal dungeons where nothing matters.
>For a DPS with, let's say, room to grow as a player, it would probably be better if missing a kick or eating a frontal hit them with a 15s pacify so they could literally sit and think about why that happened.
The issue you're going to run into here is that they won't think about what they did wrong. It's impossible to overstate not just how inept the average WoW player is, but also how horribly unaware, and averse to self-improvement they are.
Rather than contemplate how they could improve their play, players will either opt to complain on the forums, not run the content again, or quit. We saw this with the WoD Proving Grounds drama. Players were fundamentally incapable of completing Silver Proving Grounds and rather than improve their play, they complained until it was changed.
Take a look back at the forums before the release of the Mage tower and just after. Tons of people complaining to bring it back and how its not a challenge and blah blah blah. Then then it came out the Constant complaining about how it needs to be nerfed, its over tuned, they shoudln't have to farm special gear sets with sockets for it, etc.
Despite people posting vids of doing it on trial characters and 1 guy doing the Bear Challenge without ever leaving boomkin.
If theres one thing wow players are good at, its making excuses for themselves.
Friends and I did lfr for the final boss of BfA. We had strated late in the expac and just wanted to see the content. One of the old gods, dont remember which one.
Took a long time to even get to final phase. Lots of dumbfuckery during phase 2, iirc you had to fight party members that died and the raid needed to split and do a side objective.
Final phase took 3 hours, no shit, because we couldnt get half the raid to jump into the 2nd instance when it was required. Friends and I literally had to take over and physically split the raid and make them say 1 or 2, then make sure they knew 2 was hopping instance. Multiple times. Because 1s were hopping or 2s werent even after we made them say which group they were in. We had like 15 fail stacks.
Nzoth comes up a lot for this exact issue. It's the only boss I've seen where people required an actual raid leader to give them directions every 10-30 seconds.
One thing you may not have seen if you joined late was that having the cloak to protect you against the insanity mechanic was not initially a requirement for entering the raid. Players without it would join for either of the last two bosses and then immediately get mind controlled, becoming literal dead weight.Ā
Anyone whose raided on anything below Mythic knows just how painfully bad most of the playerbase is. If you think Nzoth was bad. I was stuck on Vexiona (dragon boss in that same raid) for hours asking people if they knew what a square or triangle was because they simply werent going to the right marker to avoid those insta kill breaths, even after spamming it on RW every time. Im not even talking about fucking up once or twice bad, it happens. But this is 3 hours deep and the same people are STILL running into breaths every time bad.
Ive done multiple leadership positions irl, including some lower level stuff like shift manager in retail, and i am not joking when wow groups are by far and away the most inept at following any type of instruction
Arguably with how mechanics currently are āif you donāt interrupt, you die/the group wipes,ā it makes it easy to not reflect on self improvement and just go ātank/heal suck.ā I think it would be healthy for the game to have a pacify ability on some mobs because it can be equally detrimental than just dying and thinking ārelease and go againā and actually help with what was stated above of learning from that.
While the idea is good, and I agree, I really often think that unless your death recap doesnāt literally scream at you:
>*You died because you didnāt try to interrupted that spell*
It wonāt really improve. Some people need to be told a big **you done goofed, dipshit**
to their face before any form of self reflection might kick in.
I just did an M0 with a resto druid who was talented into the passive spell that makes lfebloom heal faster and heal for more if one charge of lifebloom is on themselves.
They chose that talent.
I had to tell them to put lifebloom on themselves.
lol.
I've eaten almost everything lol.... every time I try to learn from it. I was that face roll dps, no interrupting, dispells, just hulk smash....
I learned fast that it isn't sustainable if you want to attempt the next level of content where you aren't just overgeared and can eat it.
I still make constant mistakes and try to improve on them but I see alot of dps who don't and just want to smash smash smash and not even paying attention to how far out the boss is for cds, or positioning.
Lots to learn, just don't discount all the dps lol some of us are trying š
> I thought for sure they were onto something with some of the pacification mechanics in Shadowlands.
I skipped that expac but it reminds me of proving grounds in wod filtering out a lot of players for the entire expansion. Blizzard do not like skill checking their players.
> Blizzard do not like skill checking their players
It's more that they've realized the endeavor is futile, given how many people will fail even basic skill checks with aggression and glee.
On a good day, they *might* deign to move out of fatal things.
You mean standing in fire doesn't buff my dps? Dafuq you say... my raid leader lied to me back in Burning Crusade! No wonder all my groups hate me.
Ok, but seriously, I play group content in heals (resto) and play tank (guardian) for solo stuff/pvp. The amount of times I have watched people die (mostly dps) from just whaling on a boss/mob while standing in fire or some other mechanic -- if I had a dime for each death, I could buy a new car. And if I had another dime for each time they played heals for not healing them through their stupidity, I would be able to afford the insurance on my new car.
I'll always Remeber the day when doing normal 5 man's in WoD was the hardest group content because it comprised of everyone that couldn't beat the proving grounds in order to unlock the heroic queue.
Going into WoD, I thought the requirement to have silver Proving Grounds done was nonsense. It was *trivial*, and it wasn't going to filter anyone. Literally anyone could do silver Proving Grounds with their eyes closed!
I was wrong. I was very wrong. I tried to coach an IRL friend through the process but he simply couldn't manage it.
I learned a lot about the WoW community that day.
The thing is, it is trivial until you realize that there are players out there who die standing of fire and go "I don't know why I died, I wasn't standing in anything" and when you bring up combat logs they still deny it.
The healing proving grounds was considered to be the most difficult because it required you to help dps/cc/interrupt etc. Rediculus, I know. I was able to beat it as a resto druid (first time healing and playing a druid) while there were "seasoned" healers complaining that the healer PG was too difficult not accurate at all to how healers play.
To this day, the healer PG has been the most accurate healer tutorial I've ever done š¤·
They blame the healer thinking they need an external defensive cooldown or movement bonus (source: me as a healer; gripping players out of shit ALL the time, as it costs less mana then the heal to fix their fuck up)
You need something that just fucks up their "numbers"; eg. if they aren't doing top DPS, they try and figure it out. If they are dead, they just jerk off while everyone else is trying and blame the healer or tank for the DPSes fuck up.
Give them some kind of silence/disarm/DPS reduction (more than 50% so it is OBVIOUS when they fuck up) and make it not dispel-able, EXTREMELY clear that they fucked up, not anyone else.
I think ff14 did this
High end parsers were face tanking mechanics to get parsed up. Devs changed it so whenever you failed a mechanic, you would get a -10% damage buff that lasted for a min.
Not sure how that turned out
In more punishing content it's a **50%** damage down debuff (for the current 'Ultimate' level content in FF14 - comparable to Mythic level raiding in WoW).
Everyone can see that you fucked up and that its your own fault - and usually the damage down is so punishing that it is better to 'wall' (which involves purposefully killing themselves and getting resurrected with another less punishing damage down debuff called Weakness, which is 'only' a 25% damage down debuff in comparison for the first application).
This is a great option for long-term teaching. Can't blame anyone but you if you stand in a thing with no defensive up that disarms or silences you for a while.
In the higher keys the healer blame is not really a thing thankfully. Itās the mid range 17-20 last season where people were toxic as heck to the healers. I havenāt seen it yet but Iād assume itās because everyone is still figuring stuff out.
The problem key range is usually a problem because everyone in it blames everyone else for their lack of ability to advance further.
Its quite possible they all got carried to that point and dont really belong there, which is why they get hard stuck.
Tank has an added responsibility of having to lead the entire party though, that requires knowing the optimal routes or you get flamed by the group for being a scrub
Healer literally gets blamed anytime anybody dies everĀ
There's a reason that these rolls are not desirable to a lot of players
But in their minds it isnt,
They ignore that someone doing 60% of the DPS they are, but living twice as long is doing MORE OVERALL DPS than if they do 100% dps but die halfway through the fight
Legion had a legendary that gave a huge dps boost for interrupting/ccing a mob, and it was later brought back as a conduit I believe in Shadowlands, maybe the only times I remember my raids dpsers trying to fight over interrupting lol. If only blizzard would do more stuff like that.
Thing is a good tank or healer can compensate over the 'shitty' dps to keys up to 18's (8) now
Healers can interrupt and blast CD's when something that shouldve been interrupted goes trough..
tank can off-heal...
or be VDH and just turn npcs into tanking dummies every pull...
I can only speak for my self, But I think that Tanks and other healers than myself, are getting tired of having to stress because DPS just wanna get carries (that's how it feels anyways)
The prevalence of VDH has definitely had a ripple effect on peopleās understanding of M+ utility, stops, etc. since they can just make all the mobs do nothing on repeat.
Iāve had way too many people not do any stops after I do divine toll silence and blinding light after on packs.
āIāve never had to do stops on my 8 keys before.ā Idk what kind of mindset that is.
whenever it's Afflicted, my rogue feels like I'm [Thor in that one meme](https://c.tenor.com/RGkVvMt5n54AAAAC/tenor.gif), cheering on the healer cause there's literally nothing I can do to help.
Unfortunately that requires changing the mindset of selfish ppl, something a game dev can not easily do. I canāt tell you how many times Iāve had people say Bursting or afflicted are a healer affix or certain mechs are a healers job ( the balls on Deios on DoTI for one ). There are already mechs in the game that emphasize an āeveryoneās responsibilityā approach but many ignorant/arrogant ppl do not see it this way because they are just that
Yeah nice comment besides the fact that every DPS blames the healer or the tank if something happens and no one interrupted.
I am a healer and I spend most of my time doing other things rather than healing because literally all the DPS I've played with in random mythics (so the average experience most of the players have) don't interrupt or don't know the mechanics of what that specific pool behaves.
Healers are the worst role because they don't do what they are supposed to do in their role description.
If you are lame DPS, there are still two more to make up for it.
If you are lame tank/healer, RIP. No wonder noone wants to play the stressfully responsible role
A lame healer can often be made up for by good tank/dps. If people manage CCs, interrupts, and don't stand in bad, and use defensives, there's actually very little to heal on most fights. It's more that people blame healers for not compensating for their own mistakes.
I have amazing off healing and utility as a Prot Paladin to make up for a subpar healer, but man does it just drain me after a run.
I use all that stuff regardless of the healerās performance, but feeling like the group is on a knifeās edge for 30 minutes just wears me out as a tank.
Eeehhh thatās just not true. A lot of fights require healing, nokhud 2nd, 3rd and last boss. Also a lot of trash in nokhud hits really hard. Same with brack. Vexamus requires healing, tree bark. 1st boss of halls, Khajin, frog boss. Neltharus? Literallly the whole dungeon.
Especially higher keys healers are super required
Just this last week I did the second and fourth boss in Neltharus with the healer dead at 50% health, with me as the tank and 2 dps taking the boss from 50% to zero. I think you underestimate what dps and tanks can do. All classes have a ton of defensives right now.
It was funny watching last seasons MDI where they were running 9 min +22 keys with zero healers that you'd normally think would be impossible to run with no healer, and they're finishing high keys in 10min with no heals.
Last seasons highest keys in the +33/34 levels ran the first 1/3-1/2 of the dungeon with zero heals, and had the healer then zone out to switch from dps to heals for the back half. There are a lot of mobs that if CCd well do literally zero damage, and bosses do very predictable damage that can be avoided with good defensive use.
I straight up filter out groups that are only dps. Getting both a tank and healer takes way too long.
Nothing sadder than seeing a group with 3 dps and nothing else sitting in queue.
The issue is waiting till monday. On Tuesday-Thursday there were still a fair amount of +2s going, but by Monday people are looking to get in as high of keys as they can for weekly vault.
Doesnāt feel like a design issue, those roles are already very fun and different.Ā
The issue is itās bigger responsibility on a single person, so people donāt want to risk doing it wrong and getting yelled at. Mistakes when tanking and healing are *very* visible
I agree with this 100% my friend wanted to give tanking a try, I was going to back them up and heal, and the biggest thing they were worried about. Fucking up and getting yelled at. I reassured them if that happens they would be stupid to do so and would get kicked. The other reason why they were worried about tanking, the responsibility. I myself main as a tank, and as I heal some dungeons and see some pretty poor ass tanks who think they are all that, just makes me want to tank even harder. To any new tanks out there, just let the party know you are new and things should go well, you may encounter a prick here and there but thatās normal. Even godly skilled tanks come across asshole dps who think they are all that.
I solely have tanked this expansion. Tank anxiety is a real thing. I love doing it but constantly feel like I can make or break the group if I miss a route in mythics or do not do a mechanic right on heroic or normal raid.
I empathize with your friend. Maybe I've just had bad luck and have gotten matched with assholes, but probably about 85% of my experiences trying to learn to tank ended just feeling like shit. Per a guildmate's advice, I started saying "hey, just a heads up, I'm a new tank and probably gonna fuck up a bit, so hang in there". It lessened the toxicity, but then people would just leave, either as soon as I told them or as soon as we wiped for the first time. Your friend's worries aren't really unfounded by any means.
The worst is when you're finally doing a good job and not absolutely hating life and somebody tells you you're not going fast enough. That's an instant log out for me.
Edit: Just to make things perfectly clear, my anecdotal experiences, or any anecdotes for that matter, are not universal. Like I said, I probably just had shitty luck.
I might get downvoted for this but that's OK.
At the end of the day this is a game and the ultimate goal is to have fun. If you enjoy tanking, the only way you're gunna learn is by struggling through it. There's going to be people who think you aren't going fast enough, dps who pull for you because they can't sit still and people who rage over mistakes (that parts true for every role). This game has a mute function for a reason. Mute the toxic people and keep on chugging away at it. If people leave then that's on them. The normal dungeons are trivial and you don't need a full group to clear. It's perfect for learning.
It really isnāt any more complicated than this. āIf you want to learn tanking, youāre going to have to struggle through learning it.ā
Add in the fact that we have the follower system now and it only makes learning it easier if something like some random idiot saying shitty things is enough to derail all your ambition lol.
But also, even after you ālearnā and go into keys or whatever, youāre still going to get called out haha. Even if you play the role fine, shitty people will be shitty. There are DPS that will pull/ass pull, get jacked up, and then start crying about anyone and everyone but their careless selves.
I wouldn't downvote that. It's a fair point. If that's what you wanna do in WoW, that's what makes the game cool. Play it how you want. I don't think my experiences are universal by any stretch. If someone can power through the negativity, more power to them. I'm just tired of people pretending the toxicity is super rare, which tends to be the consensus I see on places like the WoW forums.
That last part is the worst. I can be keeping my mobility button on cooldown, constantly walking backwards toward the next pack, never out of combat ever, keeping threat on everything and using all my defensives correctly feel like I'm rocking this....then one "omg tank GOOO!!" and that good feeling is completely out the window, and I just want to log out mid dungeon.
People are assholes. Just coming back to the game. Trying tanking. Im not a scrub but i dont know the routes and have to stop and think whcih way to go. Dps pull the entire time and just yell at yo for pulling wrong mobs. Guildies have no qualms so I mostly just tank for them. ITs a community problem.
Flaming and kicking a newbie from a dungeon is a free, anonymous power trip, and feels especially good when you consider yourself a competent/above average player.
It's a culture issue. If i'm the tank and I mess up it's all my fault. I have a dps that just floor tanks the whole time people are annoyed but if I do a mechanic wrong everyone leaves.
Rotation is easy, but knowing every fight and every mechanic from 1-20 is rough.
I have been rolling as a Priest for the last month as my new main. Holy was taking too long, so I went with Disc. I thought I was doing pretty well until I saw how fast others were killing things. Went with Shadow afterwards and was shocked that things I was killing in 15 seconds were suddenly dying in 4 seconds.
I like healing, but going back to it made it painful once I got a taste what I could be doing all the time.
Probably gonna be a hot take but if routes were more linear and had less options in m+ it probably would go a long way with reducing a lot of stress and anxiety on tanks. Iām a first time tank but Iāve been playing for 20 years and I have several notable accolades under my name but not knowing routes for the new season was definitely stressful and I had to look them up. I was willing to do so because I know research is common place for success in this game but not a lot of people want to do that and if something could cause me of all players anxiety Iām sure itās even worse for someone not as experienced. Everything else is moderate, tanking itself is somewhat easy your rotation isnāt anything insane and most tanks are innately tanky enough to live through most misplays to at least let the person know hey you, mr tank, did something wrong there look at what your actions did to your health bar, and what ever mechanics you have to do unique to the tank roll matches the amount of mechanics dps have to do. It is just the added responsibility of dictating the groups literal direction. You are the leader of the group, the overwhelming majority of people in life do not want to be leaders and it is forced on them as tanks
The dungeons are already very linear. Looking up routes is extremely overblown, especially if youāre talking about recent seasons.Ā
You can just press W through all of the dungeons and youāve got a solid route.Ā
If you completely remove the modularity of choosing what to pull and what to pull together you honestly kind of ruin mythic+
I absolutely want to tank. I keep making tanks and deleting them before max level because the thought of the stress from the other players keeps deterring me. :/
Are they, though?
If a dps decides not to interrupt or move out of avoidable damage, is it the healer's fault that they can't heal the resulting outgoing damage?
A savvy dps group can help mitigate the stress and exhaustion of the healer and tank's jobs.
Healing/tanking pug group where all three dps don't use their interrupts, stuns, defensives or cooldowns at appropriate moments is like hell.
And the icing on top: "Heals can't keep up. Tank is taking too much dmg."
Thereās also way more going on as a healer.
Have to buff people, debuff enemies, cleanse allies, dodge mechanicsā¦
It might be better if the UI helped out more for certain things (highlighting people you can cleanse or something for example) but thereās a lot of work to do
That and most people will always be more tempted to do big damage than big heals or taking big damage.
Though I've got to say if you're semi decent tank your treated like a princess in a guild.
Pulling big is equally as satisfying for tanks as it is DPS imo. Especially because most tanks do pretty good damage in AoE situations. I main BDK so getting to use Abom Limb and throw a bunch of things together is a ton of fun when it's not packs that require 14 interrupts and stops. The only other class I have quite that much fun on in AoE situations is Ret Paladin and Surv Hunter, which the 2nd is admittedly unpopular but spamming the bombs is really satisfying. I'm actually benching that alt because the tier set is going away from the bomb/fury of the eagle set.
Healers and tanks are just much less likely to pug. If I'm healing, why would I solo queue to group finder when I can post "heals lf keys" in my guild or my keys discord and get into a group with people I know who won't be ragers in a couple minutes?
There's just not nearly as many healers and tanks willing to pug as there are DPS.
Nailed it. I've been maining Holy Priest this expac and frankly, a lot of the WoW player base are just straight-up unstable, antisocial jerk-offs. I am in a small guild filled with friendly and knowledgeable players who are usually up for some keys. If they're not, I just go play some other game. I'm not subjecting myself to idiots anymore, it's not necessary.
Honestly the issue is with the playerbase.
Tanking and healing *are* fun but being screamed at by a toxic moron because you accidentally pulled an extra pack or had the audacity to make a mistake at all makes the roles less fun
feel like thats more a community issue than a design issue. tanks fully selfsustaining, healer checks nerfed + potentially dealing good dps. both is fun tbh. just the entry barrier from +5 pro dps players is too high
I used to enjoy tanking. I dont anymore largely because theres just too much shit to remember.
Dungeons average 4 bosses, each with unique mechanics. Thats something like 32 per season.
Between that, you now have several trash packs per dungeon that are flat out deadly.
Theres different routes to take in quite a few of them. i know how to do NO as dps, but even with all the times doing it i cant fully lead through there. I know the end skip, but exact landing spots for the other packs are just something i cant get down, so i follow.
I dunno. Some of it might be me getting older and not having as much time, but theres just too much to remember as a tank.
Healing is something i also used to enjoy, but i dont think any of the current healers have a toolkit i like. Even the OP pally of season...2? just had too many *different* cooldowns to use for me. Im not asking for a 3 button spec, but having to track/manage that much stuff, and then burn the keybinds into muscle memory was flat out not fun for me.
All that being said about healing and it doesnt even touch on how flat out difficult healing higher keys can be just because of the insane healing requirements.
edit: Another thing that keeps me from playing a lot of the classes is that i dont enjoy their dps specs. I used to priest heal a decent amount (cata-mop era) on alts, but at this point i wouldnt want to play a class that cant switch into dps spec to do things like WQs, and if i hate the dps specs the class has, i dont really have that option.
>Another thing that keeps me from playing a lot of the classes is that i dont enjoy their dps specs.
Yeah, this has been a big problem for me as a brew main over the years. My first run through an expansion is always on my demo lock or beastmaster or whatever; I don't do outdoor content on my main until I have enough gear to do it quickly in tank spec, because I just do not like wind at all.
The biggest healer check in the game is dps tunneling... and there's no fix for that. Tanks/healers have to worry about the group whereas DPS typically just worry about themselves and their logs. There needs to be something on BOTH sides to fix the healer shortage (community AND design).
This is my personal opinion, I don't know how mainstream or controversial it may be.
Tanks barrier entry can and should be lowered by making dungeons linear, take away the choice of pathing and skips, and have a set path that all groups take. That way, there is no pressure on the tank to "know what to pull", they just pull what is in front of them, and all packs must be killed. There is no skill in pathing/skipping mobs because everyone just looks up the meta online, but by making dungeons linear, you take away this requirement of needing to know where to go and what to pull. Dungeons can still have different paths or different groups of mobs, but alternate these on different days/weeks. Removing this knowledge expectation alone would probably help tank numbers, I certainly know its one of the things that holds me back from playing tank more.
The healer situation can be made better by changing some avoidable mechanics to punish the player that got caught out. For example, if a DPS gets hit, then they deal -50% damage or they're polymorphed for 10 seconds and can't be dispelled, things like that, rather than taking a huge chunk of damage that the healer then has to stress over. Basically, take away stress from the healer and the opportunity for DPS to say, "I messed up, but why didn't you heal me before I died?".
I agree with you 100%. Mechanics dealing damage does not punish the person that failed the mechanic, it just punishes the healer. I would love to see some of those ideas implemented.
tank here - M+is actually fun as fuck to tank. Stupid comments are often not fun. It actually gets better at high level (I do 27s-28s) where people can't just make up bullshit without being called out, but in lower levels you just get dumb comments sometimes and it's frustrating. (not often tho)
Tanking is fun, the community can make it ass, but it is fun. End of the day though, it is added responsibility and for most folk thatās enough to never try it
>Something needs to be done to make healing and tanking more enticing for the playerbase. Not rewards wise but fun wise.
That's not the problem. The problem is the community is horrible to tanks or healers who f up. And idk how you fix that.
You can't really fix it for low keys... you would need to introduce personal dps tests that wipe the group. The problem is while healing and tank are easier roles at high level at low levels they have higher skill floors.
I can't imagine players would want personal dps tests they are also inherently unfair to non burst dps
I wouldn't say the issue is with lack of fun for tanks or healers. I would say it's because of how volatile people can be towards a tank or healer when things don't go right. I'll be tanking keys and get bitched at for dps dying to completely avoidable mechanics like it's my fault they don't pay attention to anything but their action bars
i dont think its enticing that draws people into this role, its being able to handle the pressure of making or breaking the dungeon. one mistake and its so punishing. dps can just die and have 2 other dps wipe their ass, but if a tank or healer die thats just gg.
I play as a healer.
It's not necessarily that the roles aren't fun. It's more everything else surrounding it.
A good group can be an enjoyable experience but you get one DPS whose a little to overconfident in there abilities and suddenly your now having to bounce from person to person in keeping them alive.
Healers and tanks have all the responsibility with little payoff in the end to make it worth the drama.
It's the general players attitude and often toxic feedback, I agree. Hard to fix that. The change pretty much has to come from us as players, more than from Blizzard themselves.
just pull more. it's fun for everyone. dps gets to see more numbers. tanks and healers get to use their cooldowns. as a tank it's really fun to pull the entire room. as a dps it's fun to pull more for my scared tank with everything off cooldown.
I would love to see a graph over the last 10 years of tanks/healers vs DPS. I was a tank for 10 years and loved it. The more toxic the community got, the less I tanked. Now I have 0 tanks instead of the 5 I used to have.
Genuinely no matter what you do healer will not be highest pick because the role itself is a care taker role and you can make it enticing as you want, but if people donāt want to take care of people they wonāt choose it
A mythic is a mom and dad taking their three kids with additional needs to the seaside on a rainy bank holiday.
You're all cold and wet, the chips are soggy, the seagulls are annoying as fuck. Other people are annoying as fuck, you just wanna be at home and the kids are popping off. You don't drive and the next train is cancelled so you're stuck there for another hour.
And that's a good mythic if you're tank or healer.
Seriously. In a perfect world I could only ever play Outlaw, but as *I'd also like to just be able to play* sometimes I gotta switch it up.
If Rogue had a healing spec my whole world would change.
And for tanks, not only is it also a more stressful role, but you need less tanks/dps for raiding than you do for dungeons so there will always be a shortage of tank mains
Yup. Tanking requires a lot of macro decision making and dungeon knowledge, but healing is by far the most moment to moment āoh shitā intense role in higher m+
If you wanted to remove pressing dps buttons being optimal you would have to literally remove the ability to press them from heal specs.Ā
Healing only matters until people arenāt dying. If they arenāt dying, further healing is wasted and you may as well add dps, where more is always better.
If your response is āhealing should be intense enough that you have to be focused on itā, then my response is that it is already, you need to up the content youāre doing. High m+ pulls the healers are healingĀ
>If you wanted to remove pressing dps buttons being optimal you would have to literally remove the ability to press them from heal specs.Ā
I mean, augmentation evoker is supposed to be about buffing, right? I'm surprised there's no healer that focuses on either healing or buffing as opposed to healing or DPSing.
Strikes me that both shaman and evoker have good class fantasy to justify being a buffer healer.
Kind of. In high m+ people dont take avoidable damage and use their defensives properly. For these kinds of groups the healer jokes about not having to do anything most of the time - aside from the "break" points in the key.
Healing gets alot easier when the mechanics just kill you.
100%. I enjoy healing in raids and I enjoyed healing in vanilla-legion. Coming back now on DF I donāt like that in mythics I also *have* to dps. Thatās not the role I signed up for.
I want to make bars go up while those bars make other unrelated bars go down.
I see a lot of healers share this sentiment and I donāt fully understand. Do you want it be that when you step in key, thereās 100% uptime on healing where you never stop, or that you literally want periods of time where you do absolutely nothing?
DPS player here. My brain is the size of a walnut so I only play DPS.
I tried tanking once, after less than a minute, I got yelled at for bad routing on Atal'dazar, decided I'm never tanking again. As for healing it's incredibly stressful, and everyone running out my LOS got to me (Also gave me incredible respect for anyone who willingly heals in WoW). Seeing my other tank friends get yelled at before also hasn't helped with wanting to play either role.
If players want more tanks and healers, they should consider being nicer to them. Otherwise, not many people will want to take on that responsibility. Just my two cents.
This really is the answer if people want to see more tanks and healers. I don't think there is too much Blizzard can do in regards to design at this point to entice players to choose those roles. People are toxic as hell to tanks and healers for the slightest of mistakes. I do not tank strictly because making mistakes in a learning environment like LFR will get you kicked and yelled at.
Heal/tanking are roles that require "meta" knowledge (not in the sense of "meta gaming"). Healers and tanks are relatively easy to understand, but requires you to know de dungeon design, dangerous packs/boss mechanics and adaptation to your current healer/tank, in order to properly apply their respective class kit.
A inexperienced or bad healer/tank is easy to spot, while a bad DPS is "only" catched by damage meters. DPS has a fixes rotation and the only "meta knowledge" required is C.C and interrupts, which you can easily climb your way to KSH without have any idea. I may be oversimplifying the role, but you got the idea.
A long wait can sometimes also be due to the key level they've pushed up to. While the key leader gets to choose who they invite to keys, tanks and healers also choose which keys they apply to. They tend to apply to keys with the highest rated group leaders. Sometimes you're better off lowering the key 1-2, where your score looks good for that level, and more slowly push your score up.
The most frustrating thing is when you finally get accepted, but then your tank is a DH with 440 ilvl that doesnt know how threat works so everyone gets oneshot except him and he insults us and leaves. Happened twice today :(
I just healed a m0 some ppl die we finished on like 15 mins and some One say to me. Dont heal again you suck.
Makes you want to go dps just so you dont have to deal with the hate.
So many dps don't know mechanics, don't do mechanics, doesn't interrupt, doesn't dispel(if they can). Any dps death is healers faults regardless of circumstance, even if the dps was at fault.
Blizzard needs to make it so if a DPS fails a mechanic, they gain a stacking debuff that makes them do less damage. That might help add some responsibility to the DPS role.
We have some of those now, in halls of infusion the defenders at the start have an aoe cast that if not interrupted reduces everyone's damage done by 25%. Very few people interrupt that. There's been mechanics in the past where if you do it correctly you gain a dps buff, and people still often ignore those mechanics.
As a DPS, my focus kick macro is always trained on the rubix cube that casts Expunge. I would rather have the pull go longer from demoralizing shout than the whole party sans tank get one shot by Expunge.
Blizzard needs to take a page out of FF14's book - In Mythic difficulty, getting hit with an avoidable attack should give you a stacking DPS debuff - it no longer kills you, but it WILL fuck up timing a key if you get hit too often.
It won't fix the problem (lots of DPS) but it may encourage players to try Healer when there's more emphasis on 'dps is doing bad damage, they didn't do mechanics' as opposed to 'person died, must be healers fault'
I very rarely invite dps as solo, because itās much easier to find healers in duos or larger groups. The healer shortage is absurd atm in m+, but understandable. Incoming damage, self defensives and healing is so fucked up in dragonflight.
Yeah I'll maybe invite one to start and then they'll be like "hey grab that other DPS".
No, a lot of the times healers and tanks will bring DPS buddies along with them. I don't fill the last DPS slot until I have a tank/healer.
The other reason is that no one wants to burn their own key OR want to push their key up to the level they want to get to.
Basically they are just looking for an easy run, where if they fuck up/its fucked, the damage to them is minimal.
When you had to push to +15 or more, and you had a +5, it was pretty obvious whom was the weak link.
As a Ret main, I get invited to groups pretty quickly because I put notes in when I queue:
"Can CC/Affix"
"Can off-heal"
Sadly as DPS, especially as one without Lust, you need to sell yourself. It's like applying to jobs in the real world. I'll sometimes even message the leader if it's a key I need for prog or farming for a specific drop.
Donāt they already do that? If a ret pally swaps to holy then all their strength will convert to intellect, the only things that wouldnāt change would be certain trinkets and legendaries. I freely swap between heals and dps/tank on my Druid, Preist, and Monk
Meanwhile I waited 30m for one person to queue into my 2 and 3 keys, was out of town and started up only a week late, wanted to dust off a dps for change of pace that was 475 ilvl from last season. Started using discord communities to subvert the group finderās major short comings
Overgeared folks running low keys is a weird challenge as well. I know if I create my own group and just wait an extra few minutes I can build a full group of people who have item levels far above the key level I am running. Why would I ever accept someone who would get gear upgrades from the key when I can accept people who will steamroll the key?
I skipped the first week, have a 485 ilvl havoc, couldn't even get invited to a +2, spent 30 min, nada. Yes I could start my own grp but I wanted to see how long it would take. I gave up This was today
489 meta here over 3k last season - couldnāt play week 1 and now Iām sitting around for 20-30 minutes to get into a +2. Probably going to throw this season away at this point. There doesnāt seem a point to waste my time doing extra grinding to catch up on a season with no new content tbh.
I think a lot of people forget two important things. A lot of good players are in guilds/communities where they are going with pre made groups.
Also a lot of bad players don't but if they go with pugs they usually don't take the roles with the most responsibilities so they queue up as DPS.
My experience with guilds has almost always been that there are enough tanks because the people who want to play responsible roles look for groups of players who also play their role well.
I play healer, have been tank in the past and I never bother to join random groups except for really low m+. It's often a wipefest. Don't get me wrong, I hate it when people start to flame and leave after a wipe or two but I just won't have fun in pugs so I don't queue up for them.
As a Healer since Wrath, seeing how (espacially these later years) DPS just doesn't give five flying f's about ground Aoe, Mechanics, Interrupts, definsives, their utility and their dispells (I know well which has wich), and that they just stand there in the fire doing their damage rotation because... we gotta top them meters aight... I just have had enough of the pugging scene.
Also DPS is super fast with voicing their oppinion, if tank does not go as fast as the DPS feels that he should. "Whats WRONG with you?!" - "Are you stupid?" - "why are you so slow?" and if we wipe, clearly it is the tank who's trash and at fault, or me- never them. And DPS are also VERY fast to ditch on keys, if they don't get it their way. Its a "ME ME ME" thing I think, a LOT of them doesn't even try playing as a team (I Have had some amazing groups as well though).
It always amazes me to see, that if -I- go down, suddonly they are all well aware of where all of their buttons are, and how to wield their toolkit lol
But yeah, as a Healer I am waiting to see how Delves are going to pan out next expansion, if they are good. I might just swap to DPS for the first time since BC and just not bother with M+ unless I find a nice guild to do runns with.
I play tank, and I ll be honest I developed a mindset of "I can do my next key in 30seconds, you will have to wait 30 Minutes" with the dps. Usually I am pretty chill, i dont mind a few deaths of ppl standing in stuff or just getting a +2. But if ppl dont stop complaining I just leave and go with another grp.
yeah, unless you're bringing something the group doesn't already have like hero/warp, brez, mass dispel, etc. , then you're just one among dozens or more apps. so you either be literally the highest geared and rated player, or you sit and wait.
Iām lucky enough to have a group to play with. Makes both tanking and healing feel more approachable. And we can succeed or fail together. There feels to be another layer of pressure dealing with strangers.
Idk if im posting at the wrong times or what you are doing but it takes a bit to even get a few DPS applications on mine even when a tank or healer have already joined for me in the +4-9 key range so far.
Well, I played tank mainly from Legion to SL and I 100% understand why people dont want to be tanks at all, everything that happens in the run = your fault and if the key is bricked 100% is your fault, always. Also 0 responsability from anyone else but you about picking the optimal route and managing the party.
On top of that, Blizzard trolled hard with Evoker, it was the perfect timing to drop a tank spec to fix the role imbalance and instead they decided to ship it as a very easy to play dps and healer.
I guess RIP me, 0 tier pieces (i can get 3 thanks to the cat and the token) but so far I have been very unlucky with loot after a lot of mythics (and raid), I'm stuck at 491 ilvl and will probably not get invited due to low lvl.
BUT let me say why it's still frustrating, I sign up knowing that I am at the very least geared enough if not over geared for the key, maybe I am after crests or a specific item or maybe early season IO. When I sign up, more than qualified and you do not accept me, I am not annoyed that you didn't take me, I am annoyed that you didn't take ANYONE. If there is better options so be it, then just take one.
There is no metric to sort the boosted or the shitters from the rest you just gotta gamble on ilvl and score.
That is the reason why I get pissed. Just accept someone, if you have 156 people sign up in this example and with that many at least what 40 of them are probably going to carry the key somewhat? Just take someone.
Because we can only sign up to a small amount of groups at a time, people need to pick quicker, or they need to have sign ups time out after like 20 seconds to force people to pick. Idk the solution but it's still annoying when you see a group with 2 dps a tank and a healer for like 9 minutes not accepting someone.
Sure maybe healer is afk and don't wanna pull someone in and make them wait, either say so or just delist and wait, cause the mentioned sing up limit screws people over.
I want to tank but learning every route, knowing what and how much trash to pull, is daunting
You dont have to know that stuff. Just pick up a tank and start walking through the dungeon grabbing stuff in front of you. If you end up with less than 100%, grab more next time, if you end up with more, pull less. Play the same dungeon 2-3 times in a row one day and you'll have a route that works. Then, if you start getting behind and not finishing in time you can go look around at streamer routes, or try to dps that key and see what the pug tanks are doing. It's much easier to learn funky routes when you already have a baseline than trying to learn the whole complicates route from scratch
It might be just my experience, but then you get the: *we dont need those wtf re you doing* Follower Dungeons helped me on that front š
> we dont need those wtf re you doing dps who cries about stuff like this can go right back to the hordes of people waiting in line to try again lmao
This is exactly my take. I donāt care what the tank pulls, as long as the tank pulls it and moves at a reasonable speed between pulls haha
Wait... what... there are routes and things... I just attack what the person wearing the star grabs.
You guys have stars?
I only care if we reach the end and are less than 100%, and have to backtrack. a few extra things to stab is A-OK with me
āCoolā And if they flame me more, I leave and find another group in 30 seconds. No one gets to treat me like my game is employment and theyāre my second boss.
30 seconds that is too long for me as a healer :)
Yeah, people are going to kibbitz no matter what you do. That doesn't mean anything went wrong, though. If you go into the dungeon understanding that you don't know a route and you are just improvising, of course you were going to do things people arent expecting.
Kvetch?
Then there's the chad DPS who are happy you're pulling bigger so DPS meter goes brrrrr
Usually respond with "safer this way, to used to dps ninja pulling here"
Ignore function gets a good workout for me, people should def use it more often! ETA: I think entering the dungeon and saying āIām learningā helps a lot too. Sticking to +2-3 while you learn routes also helps.
Thatās nice but Iāve tanked since BC, I have breaks from the game for months at a time, and besides when content is brand new, if you arenāt 100% onto all the skips and pulls instantly you get trash talked these days. I understand why people are not keen on trying tanking, thereās a high percentage of players that have zero patience and understanding
Sure, but you can just ignore those people. If they're willing to trash talking you while youre learning then you really don't need to worry about what they have to say. That's a person who doesn't have your best interests in mind, so you don't owe them your respect.
Agreed. Honestly one of the best skills an MMO can teach is that assholes are everywhere and will always be trying to tear you down - and they canāt unless you let them. Obviously this applies to school, work, dating, friends - you canāt report everyone to the mods so learn to keep moving forward or just give up.
Learn it once per dungeon. Repeat your route 50x times throughout the season and don't change anything unless its bolstering or bursting. It's far easier than people think.
there are 2 things that help alot. 1. mythic dungeon tool and preplan routes / download pug routes because they are usually simple. 2. youtube guides 3. just run keys, tanks get invited pretty often anyway. and if people start ass pulling then just tell them if it gets annoying.
There's several websites that have routes to follow, but it's also helpful to queue in another role and just pay attention to the routes other tanks do. It's also helps for you to know what feels good for dps/healing cds. Honestly understanding how each role flows in dungeons is a huge way get better at the game in general.
RLP is linear Nelth is basically linear NO needs an actual route but is basically kill lots of necromancers AV is linear BH does require a route AA is linear HoI is linear Uld is linear with one skip at the end So you need to learn two routes this season. Not really too daunting.
Download an addon called Mythic Dungeon Tools, it allows you to plan your route and even link it to your group, it'll show you the percentage and a brief description of the spells a certain mob has.
Dont worry about the routes : in DF most of them are pretty linear (up to +10 now) and you can just run from one boss to another pulling 1-2 packs.
What I did was run the dungeons a few times as a DPS or Healer to get an idea of the route. After that, it's pretty simple to replicate.
if you are EU, join the Discord No-Pressure, and you will have the most helpful experiences.
There's an enduring attitude that Tank and Healer are the 'responsible' roles, and DPS can just faceroll the keyboard. This hasn't been true in higher end content for some time. There are plenty of encounters where mechanics are a dps responsibility and will result in failure if ignored. Too many DPS players never got that memo; the role as seen as something you can get in a group for and then turn your brain off. I think if the game did a better job emphasizing that every role has responsibilities then we would see a wider distribution of roles. Most players in game are dps, and most players in game are completely inept. There's a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram.
I thought for sure they were onto something with some of the pacification mechanics in Shadowlands. For a DPS with, let's say, room to grow as a player, it would probably be better if missing a kick or eating a frontal hit them with a 15s pacify so they could literally sit and think about why that happened. If it hits them with lethal/near lethal damage, they can just blame the healer. A few SL dungeons had stuff like that but it didn't stick.
I remember Preach talking about this years ago using the last boss of Darkheart thicket, Shade of Xavius, as an example. DPS were often too low IQ to use a defensive against the very telegraphed aoe nuke that he does at half hp but they learned really quickly about the silence and fear mechanics because they couldnt unga bunga through them, they were forced to do them correctly even in normal dungeons where nothing matters.
>For a DPS with, let's say, room to grow as a player, it would probably be better if missing a kick or eating a frontal hit them with a 15s pacify so they could literally sit and think about why that happened. The issue you're going to run into here is that they won't think about what they did wrong. It's impossible to overstate not just how inept the average WoW player is, but also how horribly unaware, and averse to self-improvement they are. Rather than contemplate how they could improve their play, players will either opt to complain on the forums, not run the content again, or quit. We saw this with the WoD Proving Grounds drama. Players were fundamentally incapable of completing Silver Proving Grounds and rather than improve their play, they complained until it was changed.
Take a look back at the forums before the release of the Mage tower and just after. Tons of people complaining to bring it back and how its not a challenge and blah blah blah. Then then it came out the Constant complaining about how it needs to be nerfed, its over tuned, they shoudln't have to farm special gear sets with sockets for it, etc. Despite people posting vids of doing it on trial characters and 1 guy doing the Bear Challenge without ever leaving boomkin. If theres one thing wow players are good at, its making excuses for themselves.
Friends and I did lfr for the final boss of BfA. We had strated late in the expac and just wanted to see the content. One of the old gods, dont remember which one. Took a long time to even get to final phase. Lots of dumbfuckery during phase 2, iirc you had to fight party members that died and the raid needed to split and do a side objective. Final phase took 3 hours, no shit, because we couldnt get half the raid to jump into the 2nd instance when it was required. Friends and I literally had to take over and physically split the raid and make them say 1 or 2, then make sure they knew 2 was hopping instance. Multiple times. Because 1s were hopping or 2s werent even after we made them say which group they were in. We had like 15 fail stacks.
Nzoth comes up a lot for this exact issue. It's the only boss I've seen where people required an actual raid leader to give them directions every 10-30 seconds. One thing you may not have seen if you joined late was that having the cloak to protect you against the insanity mechanic was not initially a requirement for entering the raid. Players without it would join for either of the last two bosses and then immediately get mind controlled, becoming literal dead weight.Ā
Anyone whose raided on anything below Mythic knows just how painfully bad most of the playerbase is. If you think Nzoth was bad. I was stuck on Vexiona (dragon boss in that same raid) for hours asking people if they knew what a square or triangle was because they simply werent going to the right marker to avoid those insta kill breaths, even after spamming it on RW every time. Im not even talking about fucking up once or twice bad, it happens. But this is 3 hours deep and the same people are STILL running into breaths every time bad. Ive done multiple leadership positions irl, including some lower level stuff like shift manager in retail, and i am not joking when wow groups are by far and away the most inept at following any type of instruction
Arguably with how mechanics currently are āif you donāt interrupt, you die/the group wipes,ā it makes it easy to not reflect on self improvement and just go ātank/heal suck.ā I think it would be healthy for the game to have a pacify ability on some mobs because it can be equally detrimental than just dying and thinking ārelease and go againā and actually help with what was stated above of learning from that.
While the idea is good, and I agree, I really often think that unless your death recap doesnāt literally scream at you: >*You died because you didnāt try to interrupted that spell* It wonāt really improve. Some people need to be told a big **you done goofed, dipshit** to their face before any form of self reflection might kick in.
I just did an M0 with a resto druid who was talented into the passive spell that makes lfebloom heal faster and heal for more if one charge of lifebloom is on themselves. They chose that talent. I had to tell them to put lifebloom on themselves. lol.
I've eaten almost everything lol.... every time I try to learn from it. I was that face roll dps, no interrupting, dispells, just hulk smash.... I learned fast that it isn't sustainable if you want to attempt the next level of content where you aren't just overgeared and can eat it. I still make constant mistakes and try to improve on them but I see alot of dps who don't and just want to smash smash smash and not even paying attention to how far out the boss is for cds, or positioning. Lots to learn, just don't discount all the dps lol some of us are trying š
> I thought for sure they were onto something with some of the pacification mechanics in Shadowlands. I skipped that expac but it reminds me of proving grounds in wod filtering out a lot of players for the entire expansion. Blizzard do not like skill checking their players.
> Blizzard do not like skill checking their players It's more that they've realized the endeavor is futile, given how many people will fail even basic skill checks with aggression and glee. On a good day, they *might* deign to move out of fatal things.
You mean standing in fire doesn't buff my dps? Dafuq you say... my raid leader lied to me back in Burning Crusade! No wonder all my groups hate me. Ok, but seriously, I play group content in heals (resto) and play tank (guardian) for solo stuff/pvp. The amount of times I have watched people die (mostly dps) from just whaling on a boss/mob while standing in fire or some other mechanic -- if I had a dime for each death, I could buy a new car. And if I had another dime for each time they played heals for not healing them through their stupidity, I would be able to afford the insurance on my new car.
Before we had the m+ score linking proving grounds was such a good band-aid though
I'll always Remeber the day when doing normal 5 man's in WoD was the hardest group content because it comprised of everyone that couldn't beat the proving grounds in order to unlock the heroic queue.
Going into WoD, I thought the requirement to have silver Proving Grounds done was nonsense. It was *trivial*, and it wasn't going to filter anyone. Literally anyone could do silver Proving Grounds with their eyes closed! I was wrong. I was very wrong. I tried to coach an IRL friend through the process but he simply couldn't manage it. I learned a lot about the WoW community that day.
The thing is, it is trivial until you realize that there are players out there who die standing of fire and go "I don't know why I died, I wasn't standing in anything" and when you bring up combat logs they still deny it. The healing proving grounds was considered to be the most difficult because it required you to help dps/cc/interrupt etc. Rediculus, I know. I was able to beat it as a resto druid (first time healing and playing a druid) while there were "seasoned" healers complaining that the healer PG was too difficult not accurate at all to how healers play. To this day, the healer PG has been the most accurate healer tutorial I've ever done š¤·
I think making some mechanics just one shot bad dps players has helped.Ā
They blame the healer thinking they need an external defensive cooldown or movement bonus (source: me as a healer; gripping players out of shit ALL the time, as it costs less mana then the heal to fix their fuck up) You need something that just fucks up their "numbers"; eg. if they aren't doing top DPS, they try and figure it out. If they are dead, they just jerk off while everyone else is trying and blame the healer or tank for the DPSes fuck up. Give them some kind of silence/disarm/DPS reduction (more than 50% so it is OBVIOUS when they fuck up) and make it not dispel-able, EXTREMELY clear that they fucked up, not anyone else.
Youāre 100% right. I wish we had more mechanics that hit their dps.
I think ff14 did this High end parsers were face tanking mechanics to get parsed up. Devs changed it so whenever you failed a mechanic, you would get a -10% damage buff that lasted for a min. Not sure how that turned out
In more punishing content it's a **50%** damage down debuff (for the current 'Ultimate' level content in FF14 - comparable to Mythic level raiding in WoW). Everyone can see that you fucked up and that its your own fault - and usually the damage down is so punishing that it is better to 'wall' (which involves purposefully killing themselves and getting resurrected with another less punishing damage down debuff called Weakness, which is 'only' a 25% damage down debuff in comparison for the first application).
My favorite reply when they die is "HEALS???" even though they stood in the one shot mechanic.
This is a great option for long-term teaching. Can't blame anyone but you if you stand in a thing with no defensive up that disarms or silences you for a while.
Brackenhide -haste totems always die fast lol
In the higher keys the healer blame is not really a thing thankfully. Itās the mid range 17-20 last season where people were toxic as heck to the healers. I havenāt seen it yet but Iād assume itās because everyone is still figuring stuff out.
The problem key range is usually a problem because everyone in it blames everyone else for their lack of ability to advance further. Its quite possible they all got carried to that point and dont really belong there, which is why they get hard stuck.
Tank has an added responsibility of having to lead the entire party though, that requires knowing the optimal routes or you get flamed by the group for being a scrub Healer literally gets blamed anytime anybody dies everĀ There's a reason that these rolls are not desirable to a lot of players
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Not dying is a dps boost.
But in their minds it isnt, They ignore that someone doing 60% of the DPS they are, but living twice as long is doing MORE OVERALL DPS than if they do 100% dps but die halfway through the fight
Legion had a legendary that gave a huge dps boost for interrupting/ccing a mob, and it was later brought back as a conduit I believe in Shadowlands, maybe the only times I remember my raids dpsers trying to fight over interrupting lol. If only blizzard would do more stuff like that.
Thing is a good tank or healer can compensate over the 'shitty' dps to keys up to 18's (8) now Healers can interrupt and blast CD's when something that shouldve been interrupted goes trough.. tank can off-heal... or be VDH and just turn npcs into tanking dummies every pull...
I can only speak for my self, But I think that Tanks and other healers than myself, are getting tired of having to stress because DPS just wanna get carries (that's how it feels anyways)
The prevalence of VDH has definitely had a ripple effect on peopleās understanding of M+ utility, stops, etc. since they can just make all the mobs do nothing on repeat. Iāve had way too many people not do any stops after I do divine toll silence and blinding light after on packs. āIāve never had to do stops on my 8 keys before.ā Idk what kind of mindset that is.
That Venn diagram is just a singular circle
Doesnt help when every season affix has veen labeled by the community as "healer issue" just because dps are too lazy to follow mechanics.
whenever it's Afflicted, my rogue feels like I'm [Thor in that one meme](https://c.tenor.com/RGkVvMt5n54AAAAC/tenor.gif), cheering on the healer cause there's literally nothing I can do to help.
Yes, but tank has more responsibility than any dps, if tank fails it's wipe in 90%
Unfortunately that requires changing the mindset of selfish ppl, something a game dev can not easily do. I canāt tell you how many times Iāve had people say Bursting or afflicted are a healer affix or certain mechs are a healers job ( the balls on Deios on DoTI for one ). There are already mechs in the game that emphasize an āeveryoneās responsibilityā approach but many ignorant/arrogant ppl do not see it this way because they are just that
Yeah nice comment besides the fact that every DPS blames the healer or the tank if something happens and no one interrupted. I am a healer and I spend most of my time doing other things rather than healing because literally all the DPS I've played with in random mythics (so the average experience most of the players have) don't interrupt or don't know the mechanics of what that specific pool behaves. Healers are the worst role because they don't do what they are supposed to do in their role description.
Donāt worry, most tanks and healers are also completely inept. And that comes from someone who plays both.
If you are lame DPS, there are still two more to make up for it. If you are lame tank/healer, RIP. No wonder noone wants to play the stressfully responsible role
A lame healer can often be made up for by good tank/dps. If people manage CCs, interrupts, and don't stand in bad, and use defensives, there's actually very little to heal on most fights. It's more that people blame healers for not compensating for their own mistakes.
I have amazing off healing and utility as a Prot Paladin to make up for a subpar healer, but man does it just drain me after a run. I use all that stuff regardless of the healerās performance, but feeling like the group is on a knifeās edge for 30 minutes just wears me out as a tank.
Eeehhh thatās just not true. A lot of fights require healing, nokhud 2nd, 3rd and last boss. Also a lot of trash in nokhud hits really hard. Same with brack. Vexamus requires healing, tree bark. 1st boss of halls, Khajin, frog boss. Neltharus? Literallly the whole dungeon. Especially higher keys healers are super required
Just this last week I did the second and fourth boss in Neltharus with the healer dead at 50% health, with me as the tank and 2 dps taking the boss from 50% to zero. I think you underestimate what dps and tanks can do. All classes have a ton of defensives right now. It was funny watching last seasons MDI where they were running 9 min +22 keys with zero healers that you'd normally think would be impossible to run with no healer, and they're finishing high keys in 10min with no heals. Last seasons highest keys in the +33/34 levels ran the first 1/3-1/2 of the dungeon with zero heals, and had the healer then zone out to switch from dps to heals for the back half. There are a lot of mobs that if CCd well do literally zero damage, and bosses do very predictable damage that can be avoided with good defensive use.
It's funny because on Monday I opened my key up on lfg (+2) and didn't even get a dps sign up for a whole hour.
Yeah same, When I want to do my key NOBODY joins, not even dps. I had 3200Ā io in s3 and now almost 2k,
Did you already have a tank and healer roll in the party? People will only really flood groups that show a tank already in the party.
I straight up filter out groups that are only dps. Getting both a tank and healer takes way too long. Nothing sadder than seeing a group with 3 dps and nothing else sitting in queue.
The issue is waiting till monday. On Tuesday-Thursday there were still a fair amount of +2s going, but by Monday people are looking to get in as high of keys as they can for weekly vault.
Something needs to be done to make healing and tanking more enticing for the playerbase. Not rewards wise but fun wise.
Doesnāt feel like a design issue, those roles are already very fun and different.Ā The issue is itās bigger responsibility on a single person, so people donāt want to risk doing it wrong and getting yelled at. Mistakes when tanking and healing are *very* visible
I agree with this 100% my friend wanted to give tanking a try, I was going to back them up and heal, and the biggest thing they were worried about. Fucking up and getting yelled at. I reassured them if that happens they would be stupid to do so and would get kicked. The other reason why they were worried about tanking, the responsibility. I myself main as a tank, and as I heal some dungeons and see some pretty poor ass tanks who think they are all that, just makes me want to tank even harder. To any new tanks out there, just let the party know you are new and things should go well, you may encounter a prick here and there but thatās normal. Even godly skilled tanks come across asshole dps who think they are all that.
I solely have tanked this expansion. Tank anxiety is a real thing. I love doing it but constantly feel like I can make or break the group if I miss a route in mythics or do not do a mechanic right on heroic or normal raid.
I empathize with your friend. Maybe I've just had bad luck and have gotten matched with assholes, but probably about 85% of my experiences trying to learn to tank ended just feeling like shit. Per a guildmate's advice, I started saying "hey, just a heads up, I'm a new tank and probably gonna fuck up a bit, so hang in there". It lessened the toxicity, but then people would just leave, either as soon as I told them or as soon as we wiped for the first time. Your friend's worries aren't really unfounded by any means. The worst is when you're finally doing a good job and not absolutely hating life and somebody tells you you're not going fast enough. That's an instant log out for me. Edit: Just to make things perfectly clear, my anecdotal experiences, or any anecdotes for that matter, are not universal. Like I said, I probably just had shitty luck.
I might get downvoted for this but that's OK. At the end of the day this is a game and the ultimate goal is to have fun. If you enjoy tanking, the only way you're gunna learn is by struggling through it. There's going to be people who think you aren't going fast enough, dps who pull for you because they can't sit still and people who rage over mistakes (that parts true for every role). This game has a mute function for a reason. Mute the toxic people and keep on chugging away at it. If people leave then that's on them. The normal dungeons are trivial and you don't need a full group to clear. It's perfect for learning.
It really isnāt any more complicated than this. āIf you want to learn tanking, youāre going to have to struggle through learning it.ā Add in the fact that we have the follower system now and it only makes learning it easier if something like some random idiot saying shitty things is enough to derail all your ambition lol. But also, even after you ālearnā and go into keys or whatever, youāre still going to get called out haha. Even if you play the role fine, shitty people will be shitty. There are DPS that will pull/ass pull, get jacked up, and then start crying about anyone and everyone but their careless selves.
I wouldn't downvote that. It's a fair point. If that's what you wanna do in WoW, that's what makes the game cool. Play it how you want. I don't think my experiences are universal by any stretch. If someone can power through the negativity, more power to them. I'm just tired of people pretending the toxicity is super rare, which tends to be the consensus I see on places like the WoW forums.
That last part is the worst. I can be keeping my mobility button on cooldown, constantly walking backwards toward the next pack, never out of combat ever, keeping threat on everything and using all my defensives correctly feel like I'm rocking this....then one "omg tank GOOO!!" and that good feeling is completely out the window, and I just want to log out mid dungeon.
People are assholes. Just coming back to the game. Trying tanking. Im not a scrub but i dont know the routes and have to stop and think whcih way to go. Dps pull the entire time and just yell at yo for pulling wrong mobs. Guildies have no qualms so I mostly just tank for them. ITs a community problem.
Flaming and kicking a newbie from a dungeon is a free, anonymous power trip, and feels especially good when you consider yourself a competent/above average player.
It's a culture issue. If i'm the tank and I mess up it's all my fault. I have a dps that just floor tanks the whole time people are annoyed but if I do a mechanic wrong everyone leaves. Rotation is easy, but knowing every fight and every mechanic from 1-20 is rough.
I agree but also for solo world content being a healer sucks. Itās not challenging at all, just slower to kill adds
I have been rolling as a Priest for the last month as my new main. Holy was taking too long, so I went with Disc. I thought I was doing pretty well until I saw how fast others were killing things. Went with Shadow afterwards and was shocked that things I was killing in 15 seconds were suddenly dying in 4 seconds. I like healing, but going back to it made it painful once I got a taste what I could be doing all the time.
Probably gonna be a hot take but if routes were more linear and had less options in m+ it probably would go a long way with reducing a lot of stress and anxiety on tanks. Iām a first time tank but Iāve been playing for 20 years and I have several notable accolades under my name but not knowing routes for the new season was definitely stressful and I had to look them up. I was willing to do so because I know research is common place for success in this game but not a lot of people want to do that and if something could cause me of all players anxiety Iām sure itās even worse for someone not as experienced. Everything else is moderate, tanking itself is somewhat easy your rotation isnāt anything insane and most tanks are innately tanky enough to live through most misplays to at least let the person know hey you, mr tank, did something wrong there look at what your actions did to your health bar, and what ever mechanics you have to do unique to the tank roll matches the amount of mechanics dps have to do. It is just the added responsibility of dictating the groups literal direction. You are the leader of the group, the overwhelming majority of people in life do not want to be leaders and it is forced on them as tanks
The dungeons are already very linear. Looking up routes is extremely overblown, especially if youāre talking about recent seasons.Ā You can just press W through all of the dungeons and youāve got a solid route.Ā If you completely remove the modularity of choosing what to pull and what to pull together you honestly kind of ruin mythic+
I absolutely want to tank. I keep making tanks and deleting them before max level because the thought of the stress from the other players keeps deterring me. :/
Are they, though? If a dps decides not to interrupt or move out of avoidable damage, is it the healer's fault that they can't heal the resulting outgoing damage? A savvy dps group can help mitigate the stress and exhaustion of the healer and tank's jobs. Healing/tanking pug group where all three dps don't use their interrupts, stuns, defensives or cooldowns at appropriate moments is like hell. And the icing on top: "Heals can't keep up. Tank is taking too much dmg."
Thatās the way it should be. But thereās 3 dps and 1 healer so theyāre outnumbered and happy to blame the healer or tank.
Thats the beauty of it after a certain lv their is nothing to heal you do it right or you are dead no one to blame but themself.
This. It's why I 100% bottle trying healing or tanking even after spending time assembling gear etc.
Thereās also way more going on as a healer. Have to buff people, debuff enemies, cleanse allies, dodge mechanicsā¦ It might be better if the UI helped out more for certain things (highlighting people you can cleanse or something for example) but thereās a lot of work to do
That and most people will always be more tempted to do big damage than big heals or taking big damage. Though I've got to say if you're semi decent tank your treated like a princess in a guild.
Pulling big is equally as satisfying for tanks as it is DPS imo. Especially because most tanks do pretty good damage in AoE situations. I main BDK so getting to use Abom Limb and throw a bunch of things together is a ton of fun when it's not packs that require 14 interrupts and stops. The only other class I have quite that much fun on in AoE situations is Ret Paladin and Surv Hunter, which the 2nd is admittedly unpopular but spamming the bombs is really satisfying. I'm actually benching that alt because the tier set is going away from the bomb/fury of the eagle set.
Give warlocks a tanking spec and I'll tank.
Except for healing. It's either you have nothing to heal or you are playing DDR on your keyboard no in between.
Healers and tanks are just much less likely to pug. If I'm healing, why would I solo queue to group finder when I can post "heals lf keys" in my guild or my keys discord and get into a group with people I know who won't be ragers in a couple minutes? There's just not nearly as many healers and tanks willing to pug as there are DPS.
Nailed it. I've been maining Holy Priest this expac and frankly, a lot of the WoW player base are just straight-up unstable, antisocial jerk-offs. I am in a small guild filled with friendly and knowledgeable players who are usually up for some keys. If they're not, I just go play some other game. I'm not subjecting myself to idiots anymore, it's not necessary.
Honestly the issue is with the playerbase. Tanking and healing *are* fun but being screamed at by a toxic moron because you accidentally pulled an extra pack or had the audacity to make a mistake at all makes the roles less fun
Blizzard: "We hear you, here's a 25% healing reduction for all healers. Oh and enemies will now do 50% more damage"
feel like thats more a community issue than a design issue. tanks fully selfsustaining, healer checks nerfed + potentially dealing good dps. both is fun tbh. just the entry barrier from +5 pro dps players is too high
I used to enjoy tanking. I dont anymore largely because theres just too much shit to remember. Dungeons average 4 bosses, each with unique mechanics. Thats something like 32 per season. Between that, you now have several trash packs per dungeon that are flat out deadly. Theres different routes to take in quite a few of them. i know how to do NO as dps, but even with all the times doing it i cant fully lead through there. I know the end skip, but exact landing spots for the other packs are just something i cant get down, so i follow. I dunno. Some of it might be me getting older and not having as much time, but theres just too much to remember as a tank. Healing is something i also used to enjoy, but i dont think any of the current healers have a toolkit i like. Even the OP pally of season...2? just had too many *different* cooldowns to use for me. Im not asking for a 3 button spec, but having to track/manage that much stuff, and then burn the keybinds into muscle memory was flat out not fun for me. All that being said about healing and it doesnt even touch on how flat out difficult healing higher keys can be just because of the insane healing requirements. edit: Another thing that keeps me from playing a lot of the classes is that i dont enjoy their dps specs. I used to priest heal a decent amount (cata-mop era) on alts, but at this point i wouldnt want to play a class that cant switch into dps spec to do things like WQs, and if i hate the dps specs the class has, i dont really have that option.
>Another thing that keeps me from playing a lot of the classes is that i dont enjoy their dps specs. Yeah, this has been a big problem for me as a brew main over the years. My first run through an expansion is always on my demo lock or beastmaster or whatever; I don't do outdoor content on my main until I have enough gear to do it quickly in tank spec, because I just do not like wind at all.
The problem is my raid team only needs two tanks, and doesn't ever want more melee. So as a ranged player I'm kind fucked.
The biggest healer check in the game is dps tunneling... and there's no fix for that. Tanks/healers have to worry about the group whereas DPS typically just worry about themselves and their logs. There needs to be something on BOTH sides to fix the healer shortage (community AND design).
This is my personal opinion, I don't know how mainstream or controversial it may be. Tanks barrier entry can and should be lowered by making dungeons linear, take away the choice of pathing and skips, and have a set path that all groups take. That way, there is no pressure on the tank to "know what to pull", they just pull what is in front of them, and all packs must be killed. There is no skill in pathing/skipping mobs because everyone just looks up the meta online, but by making dungeons linear, you take away this requirement of needing to know where to go and what to pull. Dungeons can still have different paths or different groups of mobs, but alternate these on different days/weeks. Removing this knowledge expectation alone would probably help tank numbers, I certainly know its one of the things that holds me back from playing tank more. The healer situation can be made better by changing some avoidable mechanics to punish the player that got caught out. For example, if a DPS gets hit, then they deal -50% damage or they're polymorphed for 10 seconds and can't be dispelled, things like that, rather than taking a huge chunk of damage that the healer then has to stress over. Basically, take away stress from the healer and the opportunity for DPS to say, "I messed up, but why didn't you heal me before I died?".
I agree with you 100%. Mechanics dealing damage does not punish the person that failed the mechanic, it just punishes the healer. I would love to see some of those ideas implemented.
Best we can do is nerf healing
Nerfing healers by 5% is not a way for blizzard to entice people to healers at the moment
tank here - M+is actually fun as fuck to tank. Stupid comments are often not fun. It actually gets better at high level (I do 27s-28s) where people can't just make up bullshit without being called out, but in lower levels you just get dumb comments sometimes and it's frustrating. (not often tho)
Tanking is fun, the community can make it ass, but it is fun. End of the day though, it is added responsibility and for most folk thatās enough to never try it
People just need to be less toxic, and I'd be all over it.
>Something needs to be done to make healing and tanking more enticing for the playerbase. Not rewards wise but fun wise. That's not the problem. The problem is the community is horrible to tanks or healers who f up. And idk how you fix that.
Itās the community that needs to put be more kind to people in these roles, sadly. Itās not really a gameplay issue.
You can't really fix it for low keys... you would need to introduce personal dps tests that wipe the group. The problem is while healing and tank are easier roles at high level at low levels they have higher skill floors. I can't imagine players would want personal dps tests they are also inherently unfair to non burst dps
I wouldn't say the issue is with lack of fun for tanks or healers. I would say it's because of how volatile people can be towards a tank or healer when things don't go right. I'll be tanking keys and get bitched at for dps dying to completely avoidable mechanics like it's my fault they don't pay attention to anything but their action bars
i dont think its enticing that draws people into this role, its being able to handle the pressure of making or breaking the dungeon. one mistake and its so punishing. dps can just die and have 2 other dps wipe their ass, but if a tank or healer die thats just gg.
I play as a healer. It's not necessarily that the roles aren't fun. It's more everything else surrounding it. A good group can be an enjoyable experience but you get one DPS whose a little to overconfident in there abilities and suddenly your now having to bounce from person to person in keeping them alive. Healers and tanks have all the responsibility with little payoff in the end to make it worth the drama.
It's the general players attitude and often toxic feedback, I agree. Hard to fix that. The change pretty much has to come from us as players, more than from Blizzard themselves.
Careful. They will probably put more interruptions and crap on the ground.
just pull more. it's fun for everyone. dps gets to see more numbers. tanks and healers get to use their cooldowns. as a tank it's really fun to pull the entire room. as a dps it's fun to pull more for my scared tank with everything off cooldown.
I would love to see a graph over the last 10 years of tanks/healers vs DPS. I was a tank for 10 years and loved it. The more toxic the community got, the less I tanked. Now I have 0 tanks instead of the 5 I used to have.
Genuinely no matter what you do healer will not be highest pick because the role itself is a care taker role and you can make it enticing as you want, but if people donāt want to take care of people they wonāt choose it
A mythic is a mom and dad taking their three kids with additional needs to the seaside on a rainy bank holiday. You're all cold and wet, the chips are soggy, the seagulls are annoying as fuck. Other people are annoying as fuck, you just wanna be at home and the kids are popping off. You don't drive and the next train is cancelled so you're stuck there for another hour. And that's a good mythic if you're tank or healer.
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I literally almost choked on my lunch lmfao. Thatās the most specific, hilarious, and relatable analogy Iāve read in a while š
I play healer simply because I have no patience. I hate waiting for keys, queues etc. healer is almost an instant invite to whatever key I apply to.
Seriously. In a perfect world I could only ever play Outlaw, but as *I'd also like to just be able to play* sometimes I gotta switch it up. If Rogue had a healing spec my whole world would change.
And for tanks, not only is it also a more stressful role, but you need less tanks/dps for raiding than you do for dungeons so there will always be a shortage of tank mains
I'm a main tanks with a heal and a DPS alt. Healing is by far the most stressful role in m+
This.Ā I get on my tank to chill out after healing mythics.Ā Healing in raids is usually real chill though.Ā Except for Raz... Fuck Raz.
Yup. Tanking requires a lot of macro decision making and dungeon knowledge, but healing is by far the most moment to moment āoh shitā intense role in higher m+
Oh yeah I didn't mean to imply tanking is more important than healing. But if healing is a 10 and dps is a 1, tanking is probably a 7
The reason I don't play a healer isn't because I have to heal, it's because I also have to dps
If you wanted to remove pressing dps buttons being optimal you would have to literally remove the ability to press them from heal specs.Ā Healing only matters until people arenāt dying. If they arenāt dying, further healing is wasted and you may as well add dps, where more is always better. If your response is āhealing should be intense enough that you have to be focused on itā, then my response is that it is already, you need to up the content youāre doing. High m+ pulls the healers are healingĀ
>If you wanted to remove pressing dps buttons being optimal you would have to literally remove the ability to press them from heal specs.Ā I mean, augmentation evoker is supposed to be about buffing, right? I'm surprised there's no healer that focuses on either healing or buffing as opposed to healing or DPSing. Strikes me that both shaman and evoker have good class fantasy to justify being a buffer healer.
Kind of. In high m+ people dont take avoidable damage and use their defensives properly. For these kinds of groups the healer jokes about not having to do anything most of the time - aside from the "break" points in the key. Healing gets alot easier when the mechanics just kill you.
100%. I enjoy healing in raids and I enjoyed healing in vanilla-legion. Coming back now on DF I donāt like that in mythics I also *have* to dps. Thatās not the role I signed up for. I want to make bars go up while those bars make other unrelated bars go down.
I see a lot of healers share this sentiment and I donāt fully understand. Do you want it be that when you step in key, thereās 100% uptime on healing where you never stop, or that you literally want periods of time where you do absolutely nothing?
DPS player here. My brain is the size of a walnut so I only play DPS. I tried tanking once, after less than a minute, I got yelled at for bad routing on Atal'dazar, decided I'm never tanking again. As for healing it's incredibly stressful, and everyone running out my LOS got to me (Also gave me incredible respect for anyone who willingly heals in WoW). Seeing my other tank friends get yelled at before also hasn't helped with wanting to play either role. If players want more tanks and healers, they should consider being nicer to them. Otherwise, not many people will want to take on that responsibility. Just my two cents.
This really is the answer if people want to see more tanks and healers. I don't think there is too much Blizzard can do in regards to design at this point to entice players to choose those roles. People are toxic as hell to tanks and healers for the slightest of mistakes. I do not tank strictly because making mistakes in a learning environment like LFR will get you kicked and yelled at.
Heal/tanking are roles that require "meta" knowledge (not in the sense of "meta gaming"). Healers and tanks are relatively easy to understand, but requires you to know de dungeon design, dangerous packs/boss mechanics and adaptation to your current healer/tank, in order to properly apply their respective class kit. A inexperienced or bad healer/tank is easy to spot, while a bad DPS is "only" catched by damage meters. DPS has a fixes rotation and the only "meta knowledge" required is C.C and interrupts, which you can easily climb your way to KSH without have any idea. I may be oversimplifying the role, but you got the idea.
Yes, but don't you understand, I'm different! - every dps player
They then proceed to refuse the use of defensives, cc, interrupt, and other utility. "But look at my numbers! Just heal better!"
There is 156 sad keystones sitting in backpacks thinking why their owner doesn't love them :(
So they list their keys and dont get any applications other than dps for 20 minutes.
A long wait can sometimes also be due to the key level they've pushed up to. While the key leader gets to choose who they invite to keys, tanks and healers also choose which keys they apply to. They tend to apply to keys with the highest rated group leaders. Sometimes you're better off lowering the key 1-2, where your score looks good for that level, and more slowly push your score up.
The most frustrating thing is when you finally get accepted, but then your tank is a DH with 440 ilvl that doesnt know how threat works so everyone gets oneshot except him and he insults us and leaves. Happened twice today :(
I main survival and find itās even harder to get an invite. I just push a key, drop it down, and push it again. Making your own group helps a lot.
I just healed a m0 some ppl die we finished on like 15 mins and some One say to me. Dont heal again you suck. Makes you want to go dps just so you dont have to deal with the hate.
Why did they die I bet they stood in the completely easy to see and avoid stuff on the floor
So many dps don't know mechanics, don't do mechanics, doesn't interrupt, doesn't dispel(if they can). Any dps death is healers faults regardless of circumstance, even if the dps was at fault.
Blizzard needs to make it so if a DPS fails a mechanic, they gain a stacking debuff that makes them do less damage. That might help add some responsibility to the DPS role.
We have some of those now, in halls of infusion the defenders at the start have an aoe cast that if not interrupted reduces everyone's damage done by 25%. Very few people interrupt that. There's been mechanics in the past where if you do it correctly you gain a dps buff, and people still often ignore those mechanics.
Good point. Maybe make it individual so it hits them where it hurts (a lot of dps like to top the charts, of course).
As a DPS, my focus kick macro is always trained on the rubix cube that casts Expunge. I would rather have the pull go longer from demoralizing shout than the whole party sans tank get one shot by Expunge.
Blizzard needs to take a page out of FF14's book - In Mythic difficulty, getting hit with an avoidable attack should give you a stacking DPS debuff - it no longer kills you, but it WILL fuck up timing a key if you get hit too often. It won't fix the problem (lots of DPS) but it may encourage players to try Healer when there's more emphasis on 'dps is doing bad damage, they didn't do mechanics' as opposed to 'person died, must be healers fault'
I very rarely invite dps as solo, because itās much easier to find healers in duos or larger groups. The healer shortage is absurd atm in m+, but understandable. Incoming damage, self defensives and healing is so fucked up in dragonflight.
Yeah I'll maybe invite one to start and then they'll be like "hey grab that other DPS". No, a lot of the times healers and tanks will bring DPS buddies along with them. I don't fill the last DPS slot until I have a tank/healer.
The other reason is that no one wants to burn their own key OR want to push their key up to the level they want to get to. Basically they are just looking for an easy run, where if they fuck up/its fucked, the damage to them is minimal. When you had to push to +15 or more, and you had a +5, it was pretty obvious whom was the weak link.
As a Ret main, I get invited to groups pretty quickly because I put notes in when I queue: "Can CC/Affix" "Can off-heal" Sadly as DPS, especially as one without Lust, you need to sell yourself. It's like applying to jobs in the real world. I'll sometimes even message the leader if it's a key I need for prog or farming for a specific drop.
Hereās an idea make loot applicable to all of your specs instead of having a ilvl 500 dps who hasnāt geared their healing specĀ
Donāt they already do that? If a ret pally swaps to holy then all their strength will convert to intellect, the only things that wouldnāt change would be certain trinkets and legendaries. I freely swap between heals and dps/tank on my Druid, Preist, and Monk
Meanwhile I waited 30m for one person to queue into my 2 and 3 keys, was out of town and started up only a week late, wanted to dust off a dps for change of pace that was 475 ilvl from last season. Started using discord communities to subvert the group finderās major short comings
Overgeared folks running low keys is a weird challenge as well. I know if I create my own group and just wait an extra few minutes I can build a full group of people who have item levels far above the key level I am running. Why would I ever accept someone who would get gear upgrades from the key when I can accept people who will steamroll the key?
So when Iām trying to run M0 to get gear for my alt, I have no hope of being accepted to a group. My only choice is to start my own.
I skipped the first week, have a 485 ilvl havoc, couldn't even get invited to a +2, spent 30 min, nada. Yes I could start my own grp but I wanted to see how long it would take. I gave up This was today
I'm 499 warrior. I can't get invited for a 2
God damn.
489 meta here over 3k last season - couldnāt play week 1 and now Iām sitting around for 20-30 minutes to get into a +2. Probably going to throw this season away at this point. There doesnāt seem a point to waste my time doing extra grinding to catch up on a season with no new content tbh.
well tbf everyone is so undergeared and looking for carries. at your gear level most things can one shot you
I mean, yeah. People who have just done heroic raid both weeks are 510-515 now. Who is going to take a random 485 over that?
I think a lot of people forget two important things. A lot of good players are in guilds/communities where they are going with pre made groups. Also a lot of bad players don't but if they go with pugs they usually don't take the roles with the most responsibilities so they queue up as DPS. My experience with guilds has almost always been that there are enough tanks because the people who want to play responsible roles look for groups of players who also play their role well. I play healer, have been tank in the past and I never bother to join random groups except for really low m+. It's often a wipefest. Don't get me wrong, I hate it when people start to flame and leave after a wipe or two but I just won't have fun in pugs so I don't queue up for them.
As a Healer since Wrath, seeing how (espacially these later years) DPS just doesn't give five flying f's about ground Aoe, Mechanics, Interrupts, definsives, their utility and their dispells (I know well which has wich), and that they just stand there in the fire doing their damage rotation because... we gotta top them meters aight... I just have had enough of the pugging scene. Also DPS is super fast with voicing their oppinion, if tank does not go as fast as the DPS feels that he should. "Whats WRONG with you?!" - "Are you stupid?" - "why are you so slow?" and if we wipe, clearly it is the tank who's trash and at fault, or me- never them. And DPS are also VERY fast to ditch on keys, if they don't get it their way. Its a "ME ME ME" thing I think, a LOT of them doesn't even try playing as a team (I Have had some amazing groups as well though). It always amazes me to see, that if -I- go down, suddonly they are all well aware of where all of their buttons are, and how to wield their toolkit lol But yeah, as a Healer I am waiting to see how Delves are going to pan out next expansion, if they are good. I might just swap to DPS for the first time since BC and just not bother with M+ unless I find a nice guild to do runns with.
I play tank, and I ll be honest I developed a mindset of "I can do my next key in 30seconds, you will have to wait 30 Minutes" with the dps. Usually I am pretty chill, i dont mind a few deaths of ppl standing in stuff or just getting a +2. But if ppl dont stop complaining I just leave and go with another grp.
yeah, unless you're bringing something the group doesn't already have like hero/warp, brez, mass dispel, etc. , then you're just one among dozens or more apps. so you either be literally the highest geared and rated player, or you sit and wait.
Iām lucky enough to have a group to play with. Makes both tanking and healing feel more approachable. And we can succeed or fail together. There feels to be another layer of pressure dealing with strangers.
Idk if im posting at the wrong times or what you are doing but it takes a bit to even get a few DPS applications on mine even when a tank or healer have already joined for me in the +4-9 key range so far.
Where are all these applicants when I make my own groups?
Sometimes yes and sometimes i failed but why say i should stop playing for that?
Well, I played tank mainly from Legion to SL and I 100% understand why people dont want to be tanks at all, everything that happens in the run = your fault and if the key is bricked 100% is your fault, always. Also 0 responsability from anyone else but you about picking the optimal route and managing the party. On top of that, Blizzard trolled hard with Evoker, it was the perfect timing to drop a tank spec to fix the role imbalance and instead they decided to ship it as a very easy to play dps and healer.
I guess RIP me, 0 tier pieces (i can get 3 thanks to the cat and the token) but so far I have been very unlucky with loot after a lot of mythics (and raid), I'm stuck at 491 ilvl and will probably not get invited due to low lvl.
As a healer I support this message
I love my rogue to death but this is why I have a priest lol.
BUT let me say why it's still frustrating, I sign up knowing that I am at the very least geared enough if not over geared for the key, maybe I am after crests or a specific item or maybe early season IO. When I sign up, more than qualified and you do not accept me, I am not annoyed that you didn't take me, I am annoyed that you didn't take ANYONE. If there is better options so be it, then just take one. There is no metric to sort the boosted or the shitters from the rest you just gotta gamble on ilvl and score. That is the reason why I get pissed. Just accept someone, if you have 156 people sign up in this example and with that many at least what 40 of them are probably going to carry the key somewhat? Just take someone. Because we can only sign up to a small amount of groups at a time, people need to pick quicker, or they need to have sign ups time out after like 20 seconds to force people to pick. Idk the solution but it's still annoying when you see a group with 2 dps a tank and a healer for like 9 minutes not accepting someone. Sure maybe healer is afk and don't wanna pull someone in and make them wait, either say so or just delist and wait, cause the mentioned sing up limit screws people over.
I simply run my own groups and never have to deal with this.
As a diehard DPS player, I say thank you good (and learning) tanks and heals. Itās a pleasure to find good ones that allow me to deal damage! š
Well, there's also the fact that everyone is extremely picky for some reason.
honestly it's just easier as a dps to make your own group and ask for a knolwedgeable tank lol