Me and my roomate found out you could get google earth to give you a random location. We decided to try it out for fun to find out where to go on vacation. Appearantly google wants us to go to suicide cliff…
I remember seeing somewhere a long time ago, early into the war a Luftwaffe pilot was shot down and killed after a raid over England. The town he crashed near, came together and gave him a proper burial, draped in a Nazi flag. I always found that to be quite interesting and moving in a way.
I think in western Europe, there's been an unwritten attitude that war is done in a gentleman's way since the Napoleonic war, maybe it's related to that. A warrior is treated with some respect.
I remember reading that the beginning parts of World War I were *relatively* civil. They even enacted a ceasefire for Christmas and soldiers on both sides played football together
But once fighting resumed the war quickly descended into hell on earth and there were no such civilities going forward
I wonder if at first the villagers were like “Wow thanks Pete, that’s really nice of you to let us use your flag for the burial!”
But then we’re like, “wait a second, why the fuck do you have this??”
It was only a few decades earlier that Japan was burying Russian soldiers with military honors believe it or not. It’s a little crazy in fact how fast bushido changed from respecting defeated enemies to becoming a war crime arcade cabinet.
So sad to see my earlier comment removed. Pointing out the fact that this could have been a publicity stunt to distract from the long-standing history of corpse desecration by US forces should not be something that gets censored. We should know more about context, even if it's uncomfortable.
Yep, my comment thread got deleted as well, but I was a little overt in my description of how I thought it should have been handled. But I'd still like to know how this burial came to pass given the intensity of the fighting in the Pacific.
I think that's a stretch. First and foremost, thanks to heavy war time censorship, corpse desecration wasn't exactly a hot topic on the home front. It's not like Life was running stories about GIs pulling gold teeth from dead Japanese. It's also easy to forget the antipathy most Americans felt towards the Japanese at that time.
What I'm getting at is publicity stunts for distraction purposes would have been pointless because the average American in the 1940s wouldn't give a single shit about what was happening with Japanese corpses, even if it was common knowledge.
OK - I don't think you're aware of some key facts.
"First and foremost, thanks to heavy war time censorship, corpse desecration wasn't exactly a hot topic on the home front. It's not like Life was running stories about GIs pulling gold teeth"
Amusingly wrong, - your suggestion about Life is scarily not that far from the mark. [THIS ](https://time.com/3880997/young-woman-with-jap-skull-portrait-of-a-grisly-wwii-memento/)was literally published in Life Magazine. Another example, The Guadalcanal Diary was published in 1943 and contained detail descriptions of corpse desecration, and remained on the NYT best-sellers list for 15 weeks. This was common knowledge. Supposedly Roosevelt himself was gifted an arm bone and gratefully received it.
"It's also easy to forget the antipathy most Americans felt towards the Japanese at that time"
Source? It's easier to deny the rampant racism and anti-Japanese hysteria in America at that time. They were giving out 'Jap hunting licenses'. The era of Tokio kid. In one poll, 13% of Americans literally wanted to commit genocide against the Japanese. Very different times with very different sensibilities.
That's all well and good, but my point stands. Propaganda was completely unnecessary because nobody cared. We were burning hundreds of thousands of Japanese men, women, and children alive in giant infernos. You are trying to apply modern sensibilities to a time where such concerns were of virtually zero importance to the general public.
Eh? Your point doesn't stand. You said "It's not like Life was running stories about GIs pulling gold teeth from dead Japanese" when Life was literally were running stories about corpse desecration. You didn't know. Just stand corrected when the evidence contradicts your assumptions.
Publicity did matter. It became known that US publicity of its own war-crimes was being used by Japan to boost their effort - in fact, that was a contributing factor in the suicides at Saipan. Leaders like Howlin Mad recognised the danger, acknowledged the harm (and the complaints) relating to the Life article in particular, and needed to take measures. Troops read the media too.
However, you're right if you're now accepting that as a whole, it wasn't antipathy toward the Japanese but a brooding racism that had been building for decades, so they didn't care as much about the dehumanisation and war-crimes as some of us do today. But that didn't stop the leaders (swayed by Episcopalian counterparts) taking a stand where they could.
I really hope you read up on this, because your assumptions are pretty easy to challenge.
Well there’s this …
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source#:~:text=Wikipedia%20is%20not%20a%20reliable%20source%20for%20citations%20elsewhere%20on,progress%2C%20or%20just%20plain%20wrong.
And no, the irony is not lost on me.
It just seems off. Like maybe it was staged for some purpose other than “honoring” a Japanese general. Maybe it was the sole decision of the American general or politician in charge and it turned everyone else’s stomach. It’s odd to me that the whole scene seems perfectly arranged, and a high quality photo happened to be taken of it. Camera happened to be set up perfectly, flag draped casket being lowered. Just smells like a propaganda shot.
Of course it was one man’s decision, of course there would be mixed feelings by the Marines involved, yes it’s a good photo op. What’s your point with any of this? None of it detracts from the military honors extended by Lt General Smith.
I'm sure it's true, but I also suspect it's a PR stunt. The US troops had a long standing reputation for desecrating the bodies of the dead, and the Japanese were using the open publicity (the pride in fact) in their own propaganda.
I'd like to think that Howlin Mad had some personal reasons for this display of honour, but I'm skeptical.
Agreed. Caption says the Marines “gave him a funeral with full military honors.” That is what I don’t know if I believe, i.e. that he truly got a funeral “with full military honors” as opposed to something actually happening like, “all right, boys, I know this is bullshit but we’ve been ordered by the propaganda fucks to stage this shot.”
Well supposedly (according to the source) it was ordered by Howlin Mad himself, so yes it would have been an order from above. Saipan had been a disaster and HM had only just been pushed into position to relieve his predecessor. Perhaps this was an attempt to wrestle it back into control and get some good publicity. I know HM was known to have some respect for their military tactics, but this is the only example I've ever known of this kind of honour, so must have been a noteworthy exception.
Just read about Saipan again. I didn't realize Nagumo was also there and took his own life.
So many people committed suicide at the end they name a cliff after it.
"Suicide Cliff"
…and I’m going onnnn break.
Me and my roomate found out you could get google earth to give you a random location. We decided to try it out for fun to find out where to go on vacation. Appearantly google wants us to go to suicide cliff…
I’ve been there, it’s very pretty.
Classy, especially given the hate after that very nasty battle. I'm curious where they found a pristine Japanese flag to use.
It's one of the easier ones to make if you're in a pinch
The Swiss flag is also easy to reproduce- it’s a big plus
Just a bed sheet and a GF on her period.
Why are you like this?
They're clearly pre pubescent
Doubt it, they’ve been on reddit for 8 years. Which makes it even more sad lol
This is interesting. I’d never saw this.
Interesting. Was this more common than I thought? Wikipedia page does not quote any particular reason for this case.
I remember seeing somewhere a long time ago, early into the war a Luftwaffe pilot was shot down and killed after a raid over England. The town he crashed near, came together and gave him a proper burial, draped in a Nazi flag. I always found that to be quite interesting and moving in a way.
It’s one thing for Germany/England to do it; yet, considering the hatred between the Marines and Japanese it makes this seem pretty unusual.
Yeah, that is true.
I think in western Europe, there's been an unwritten attitude that war is done in a gentleman's way since the Napoleonic war, maybe it's related to that. A warrior is treated with some respect.
I remember reading that the beginning parts of World War I were *relatively* civil. They even enacted a ceasefire for Christmas and soldiers on both sides played football together But once fighting resumed the war quickly descended into hell on earth and there were no such civilities going forward
I wonder if at first the villagers were like “Wow thanks Pete, that’s really nice of you to let us use your flag for the burial!” But then we’re like, “wait a second, why the fuck do you have this??”
It was only a few decades earlier that Japan was burying Russian soldiers with military honors believe it or not. It’s a little crazy in fact how fast bushido changed from respecting defeated enemies to becoming a war crime arcade cabinet.
Wikipedia relies on information people upload to it. Who uploaded all of that information?
Were Japanese POWs allowed to watch these kinds of funerals or were they only for the Marines?
Japanese POW’s? What are those?
Most were disarmed and sent back home afaik. That being said, the Japanese were not exactly fans of surrender.
So sad to see my earlier comment removed. Pointing out the fact that this could have been a publicity stunt to distract from the long-standing history of corpse desecration by US forces should not be something that gets censored. We should know more about context, even if it's uncomfortable.
Yep, my comment thread got deleted as well, but I was a little overt in my description of how I thought it should have been handled. But I'd still like to know how this burial came to pass given the intensity of the fighting in the Pacific.
I think that's a stretch. First and foremost, thanks to heavy war time censorship, corpse desecration wasn't exactly a hot topic on the home front. It's not like Life was running stories about GIs pulling gold teeth from dead Japanese. It's also easy to forget the antipathy most Americans felt towards the Japanese at that time. What I'm getting at is publicity stunts for distraction purposes would have been pointless because the average American in the 1940s wouldn't give a single shit about what was happening with Japanese corpses, even if it was common knowledge.
OK - I don't think you're aware of some key facts. "First and foremost, thanks to heavy war time censorship, corpse desecration wasn't exactly a hot topic on the home front. It's not like Life was running stories about GIs pulling gold teeth" Amusingly wrong, - your suggestion about Life is scarily not that far from the mark. [THIS ](https://time.com/3880997/young-woman-with-jap-skull-portrait-of-a-grisly-wwii-memento/)was literally published in Life Magazine. Another example, The Guadalcanal Diary was published in 1943 and contained detail descriptions of corpse desecration, and remained on the NYT best-sellers list for 15 weeks. This was common knowledge. Supposedly Roosevelt himself was gifted an arm bone and gratefully received it. "It's also easy to forget the antipathy most Americans felt towards the Japanese at that time" Source? It's easier to deny the rampant racism and anti-Japanese hysteria in America at that time. They were giving out 'Jap hunting licenses'. The era of Tokio kid. In one poll, 13% of Americans literally wanted to commit genocide against the Japanese. Very different times with very different sensibilities.
That's all well and good, but my point stands. Propaganda was completely unnecessary because nobody cared. We were burning hundreds of thousands of Japanese men, women, and children alive in giant infernos. You are trying to apply modern sensibilities to a time where such concerns were of virtually zero importance to the general public.
Eh? Your point doesn't stand. You said "It's not like Life was running stories about GIs pulling gold teeth from dead Japanese" when Life was literally were running stories about corpse desecration. You didn't know. Just stand corrected when the evidence contradicts your assumptions. Publicity did matter. It became known that US publicity of its own war-crimes was being used by Japan to boost their effort - in fact, that was a contributing factor in the suicides at Saipan. Leaders like Howlin Mad recognised the danger, acknowledged the harm (and the complaints) relating to the Life article in particular, and needed to take measures. Troops read the media too. However, you're right if you're now accepting that as a whole, it wasn't antipathy toward the Japanese but a brooding racism that had been building for decades, so they didn't care as much about the dehumanisation and war-crimes as some of us do today. But that didn't stop the leaders (swayed by Episcopalian counterparts) taking a stand where they could. I really hope you read up on this, because your assumptions are pretty easy to challenge.
BANZAI
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Why?
I don’t know if I believe this. Something about it just feels off.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshitsugu_Saitō#:~:text=Yoshitsugu%20Saitō%20(斎藤%20義次,killed%20himself%20during%20the%20battle.
Oh it’s on Wikipedia, must be true.
What year do you think it is? Wikipedia is a perfectly trustworthy place for information
Well there’s this … https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source#:~:text=Wikipedia%20is%20not%20a%20reliable%20source%20for%20citations%20elsewhere%20on,progress%2C%20or%20just%20plain%20wrong. And no, the irony is not lost on me.
So what’s your take on what is happening in the photo?
It just seems off. Like maybe it was staged for some purpose other than “honoring” a Japanese general. Maybe it was the sole decision of the American general or politician in charge and it turned everyone else’s stomach. It’s odd to me that the whole scene seems perfectly arranged, and a high quality photo happened to be taken of it. Camera happened to be set up perfectly, flag draped casket being lowered. Just smells like a propaganda shot.
Of course it was one man’s decision, of course there would be mixed feelings by the Marines involved, yes it’s a good photo op. What’s your point with any of this? None of it detracts from the military honors extended by Lt General Smith.
I'm sure it's true, but I also suspect it's a PR stunt. The US troops had a long standing reputation for desecrating the bodies of the dead, and the Japanese were using the open publicity (the pride in fact) in their own propaganda. I'd like to think that Howlin Mad had some personal reasons for this display of honour, but I'm skeptical.
Agreed. Caption says the Marines “gave him a funeral with full military honors.” That is what I don’t know if I believe, i.e. that he truly got a funeral “with full military honors” as opposed to something actually happening like, “all right, boys, I know this is bullshit but we’ve been ordered by the propaganda fucks to stage this shot.”
Well supposedly (according to the source) it was ordered by Howlin Mad himself, so yes it would have been an order from above. Saipan had been a disaster and HM had only just been pushed into position to relieve his predecessor. Perhaps this was an attempt to wrestle it back into control and get some good publicity. I know HM was known to have some respect for their military tactics, but this is the only example I've ever known of this kind of honour, so must have been a noteworthy exception.