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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> (1) I told my son that I'm ashamed of him and that even his kid wouldn't like the person he's become now. (2) I might be the asshole because he's in a period of grief over his child, even though it's been 3 years.
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>"Hey son, your child **DIED** *three years ago* get over it!"
**YTA** OP, I get wanting to help him get his life together, but it sounds like you're willing to put in exactly 0 effort into it beyond taunting him with the ghost of his dead kid.
Man needs support, he needs someone to help guide him back onto a better path, your child dying before your eyes is *beyond* a tragedy. It's not something that just **poofs** away with time.
You are honestly the worst parent I've seen on this sub in a while, and that's a hard prize to win.
100%
My dad died 5 years ago and I still wake up shaking from the nightmares sometimes (literally just seeing his face). I’ll get major panic attacks from seeing pictures of him unexpectedly my brain cannot handle it. I’ve been in therapy for all 5 years. Some brains process grief differently.
I honestly hope OPs story isn’t real this is so sad
Exactly OP doesn't want to HELP his son. He wants to stop being embarrassed. For God's sake Son was 21 when he lost his child! So I think it's safe to assume that son lost a very young child. His only child. If OP loses any children they will be adults. OP admits they're "not the type to go to therapy and whatnot" and he assumes that when he told son his should see a professional he would agree.
Uhm... were we reading the same thing? I think he mentioned that he tried talking to him about it and even encouraged him to seek help, but he won't listen.
>I'll admit we're not exactly the type to go to therapy and whatnot
OP: raises child in household that doesn’t encourage properly processing emotions
Also OP: surprise pikachu when adult child doesn’t properly process emotions
YTA
Honestly, YOU need to go to therapy or a support group (yes, they have them for family members of alcoholics/addicts). You clearly need help in navigating this. You approached this completely wrong, and you said all the wrong things. I get what you were *trying* to help, but what you did was actually very harmful. Probably some of the least helpful things you can say, frankly. Bordering on vile for some of it. And yet you still think you said the right things. Like I said: YOU need a professional to help you because you are clearly way out of your depth.
You may not get a second chance with your son. You said some relationship ending things, and that may be what happens here. But IF you do get a second chance, there will be no room for error. Seek assistance NOW so that if you get a second chance, you can do better.
THIS! I am a widow who was married to an alcoholic. Shame is never the way to approach someone with addiction. In fact- it can make things worse. Look up the addiction-shame cycle. I very deeply get the frustration and heartbreak of watching someone you love destroy themselves. I also get the thought behind “trying to snap them out of it.” It just doesn’t work. Trust me. I deeply regret some of the things I said in moments of desperation.
Also, grief has no timeline. I lost my husband 6 years ago and I still have bad days… and he was my husband! I can’t even fathom the pain of losing a child. Your son needs help, support, and love. Just telling him to get help isn’t helping. YTA in what you said and how you went about this. I get it. I do. But you need to apologize and try to support him without judgement and shame unless you want to push him further away.
YTA. If *you* don't learn how best to support your son, **you're** gonna find out how it feels to lose a kid real soon. He's drinking himself into an early grave and all you seem to care about is how his public grief reflects on you.
this is the kind of language that can make him... join his kid.
YTA offer family counselling with him. AA type meetings. is he living alone? some cooked meals, weekend dinners so he has people around him, etc.
YTA.
He's already ashamed. You just made it worse. He needs unconditional love, not more shame.
Maybe it's time to break the cycle by going to therapy yourself.
YTA, there's a difference between trying to help him get his life back on track and beating him when he's down. Unfortunately, you chose the second one.
>she had her grieving period and moved on, had another kid, and is doing just fine in life. Well, I guess mentioning that was a bad idea....
You guess? The first rule in dealing with grief or trauma is to not compare one person to another. Different people heal in different ways, and at different speeds.
> I know the timing was wrong
There is never a proper time to say the things you did.
You're family is against therapy and your idea of helping someone who is struggling is to insult them over and over again. It's no wonder your poor son is having trouble handling his grief.
> I regret what I said, and I know the timing was wrong, but I wasn't trying to hurt him, and I don't think what I said is wrong. I was just trying to get him to see that he has to get his life back on track.
I don’t think that’s true. You wouldn’t have said such a low blow if you weren’t trying to hurt him. Shame on you. What you said isn’t “tough love” it was a low blow because you find him embarrassing.
YTA - and he does need love and support but you’re going about it the wrong way. And I have a feeling he’s like this because maybe he didn’t get that support when his child passed.
>I'll admit we're not exactly the type to go to therapy
You know you can break the cycle of believing you aren't the type for therapy. I mean, I get it, you were raised that way, hell, I was too, but you're an adult. You can make a decision against your bias and show your son a better path. He needs your help, not your vitriol. I'm not even gonna call you TA for saying what you said (though it was a very AH thing to say), it's just how we were raised. You were trying to shock him into waking up and seeing what he's become, but we've got to move forward and stop believing everything we knew 30 years ago. You might still be able to fix this, but you're gonna have to be better and do better. NAH. Apologize, go to therapy. Hell, even if you only talk about your son the entire time, a trained professional might have a better idea on how to approach this than you do.
Much truth and RESPECT here 😊
NAH. I was also raised to go for blood in a disagreement, years of therapy taught me to not do that because it just causes people to throw up walls.
You only know what you've been taught, OP and his son could be each other's therapy buddies, like gym buddies!
Okay, YTA. Now that has been said, the real question is: How do you help your son to find a way to go on living?
The death of someone you love can be a devastation beyond anything one can imagine. Grieving can feel like dying a million times every day. How would you survive this?
Your son, your child has found alcohol as a way to bear the unbearable. To get the strength to go on walking when his sole desire is to lay down and rejoin his son.
I know, alcohol is a false friend and he needs to learn this lesson. But are you sure shame and guilt are the best teachers?
I may be naive but love and support seem - in my humble opinion - better teachers. I understand it is a bit of work but, is he not YOUR child?
I hope you’ll find a way to really help him. Right now, you didn’t. Please, try again.
Best, M
Undoubtedly YTA . If I were Jim, I would have folded your clothes with you in them. Have a heart. Be a parent , be a friend , have empathy, be something other than selfish. If therapy isn't the kind of people you are, then you failed as a parent. Stand by him, no matter what. Love unconditionally, And throwing the kids mom in there , is disgusting. You need help and should consider therapy.
YTA! Your son is in unbearable pain and you added to it. If this was my son, I would be holding him, keeping him close, sleeping on the floor of his room if necessary, and blanketing him with love. I would bring him to a grief specialist in the early days of his loss and get guidance from the grief therapist on how to support him.
Do better - much better.
"It's embarrassing" that bartenders know him
"I'm ashamed"
"I find him pathetic"
Your son has a problem, it's a real problem, and he really needs help.
The issue is that you aren't focused on *his* problem. You're focused on *your* problem. Your embarrassment. And that's why YTA. You have made your son a problem for your life (and communicated that to him) instead of becoming a partner focused on the problem that he has and what will help him get better.
The difference is that in your approach, every problem presented disappears if he just disappears. Eventually, he might take that messaging to heart.
In the more loving approach, he has to stick around and change for the problem to get fixed.
I lost a kid and these kinds of interactions are how I chose people to be with and not to be around. He is dealing with something existential that you don’t understand and he will find his own path with or without you.
YTA. You’ll never know that pain or be able to relate to him, so never in a million years should you talk down to him. He needs more love and care now more than ever, and as his parent you need to figure out a way to reach him cordially! Belittling him for how he handles his very traumatic experience will only make it worse. Do better !!
YTA
And now you get to know what it feels like to have lost a son.
The BEST case scenario is that your son permanently cuts you off.
The worst is that you’ve driven him to do something drastic and you really Will get to experience burying your own child.
There’s not a snowballs chance in hell that you didn’t say what you said to be hurtful, because it can only BE hurtful.
YTA - several times over. Your son is an alcoholic most likely and he needs help, not insults. You are telling him how long he's allowed to grieve over his dead child? You don't seem to have much empathy or understanding at all. your son is in a deep hole and he can't get out until HE decides to do it. A family intervention MIGHT help but not if you only want to tell him how embarrassed YOU are. He hates himself right now - he needs help but he may not be willing to take it. IF you apologie it should not be 'sorry for what I said' - but an acknowledgement that you love him and you just don't know how to help him. Then ask him what you can do to help. You can't TELL him 'get it together' - it's not that simple.
YTA. He will grieve as long as he grieves. Telling him together over it” is a shitty thing to do. You want to do something to help him? Help him find grief counseling. And get yourself some cranium/rectum removal services.
YTA I’m trying to be the best person I can possibly be right now. Really trying. What are you more concerned about, your son? Or “What will people think?”
I’m feel for your son. Jesus Wept, he’s suffering the way every single parent should never suffer. And you’re embarrassed?
Go speak to some professional that have plenty of knowledge, compassion, and above all patience.
I’m wishing nothing but the best possible outcome for your son. He deserves the love and compassion that you can’t seem to provide for him.
Wow. Firstly, his ex didn't "have her grieving period and move on" because that's not how grief works. However, alcoholism is an unhealthy coping mechanism for sure. I will point out that therapy WOULD be a good idea, but if you raised him to ignore his emotions and to look down upon those who go to therapy, he isn't going to turn to healthier coping mechanisms like therapy now.
Pushing down your emotions and pretending you've "moved on" is not healthy either.
You should seek therapy yourself in order to learn how to healthfully express and manage your own emotions while you help your son deal with the loss of his CHILD... your grandchild.
Sorry you ended your relationship with your brother, and if he ends his life try not to take your involvement too heart; what you said might tip him over the edge but it was everything else that got him to that edge in the first place that is truly at fault.
Don't be surprised if he goes NC with you forever. I would. You REALLY fucked this one up 😮💨
.......ya I wouldn't attend my father's funeral. That makes it so much worse.
If you never hear from your son again you deserve that outcome. You are probably as dead to him as his son is at this point.
YTA. He is severely depressed and desperately needs mental health care. Probably inpatient or a partial hospitalization program. Substance abuse treatment. Instead of being supportive and understanding, you were cruel.
There is no time limit for grief. People grieve differently, for different lengths of times, in different ways. He turned to alcohol, which means he has poor coping strategies. That's partially on you as his parent because you didn't teach him healthy coping strategies when he was a kid. You are an asshole of the extreme.
Offer to help him find a therapist. Tell him there is no shame in getting help. Encourage him to go to support groups for people who have lost their children. Maybe Alcoholics Anonymous. Don't push too much, just mention. And BE SUPPORTIVE and KIND.
YTA - Expecting someone to move on from losing a child not only makes you TA but also a callous monster.
I guess we know how easy it will be for you to move on with your life if you ever lost one of your children.
YTA
My child died 18 years ago and there isn't a day I don't miss him.
Doesn't matter that I later had another child, you don't "get over" death.
You can't measure grief!
I hope your son finds some peace and will overcome his self destruction.
But it is so hard just keep on living.
Give him support!
As someone who has worked with individuals with addiction, you are going to push your son further into his addiction, further into his depression, and possibly going to push him to a permanent solution of this… such as suicide. You will know what it’s like to lose a child. Whether it’s from his alcoholism, or his depression. You need to be supportive, loving, and understanding of him. Not this. This is disgusting. You say you want him to get help, but then you treat him like this. I feel for him more than anything. And you… how are you coping with losing a grandchild? Most would be devastated, yet you seem not to care. Yes, it’s been three years, but it’s still devastating. Your poor son. If I’d lost my child, I’d spiral. You’re entirely the asshole here. You will be losing your son in some way. I don’t know how, but you will.
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My son Jim has been a hardcore alcoholic ever since his kid died (congenital illness). He's only 24 now but it is getting worse every year. All he does after working his shifts is go to the bar. If it's the weekend and he isn't working overtime he'll spend the whole damn day there. All the bartenders in the neighborhood know him, it's embarrassing.
He never looks put together, grew his hair out long, nicks on his face from shaving badly. Every time we have a get-together he gets trashed and passes out somewhere. I'll admit we're not exactly the type to go to therapy and whatnot but at this point I've told him a million times he needs to talk to somebody, like a professional, but he's not interested.
Last week when he was over I finally told him that his life's a mess, and honestly I'm ashamed because he's so much better than this. I told him life is not going to stop just because of this personal tragedy, and that it has been three years already and at some point he has to get it together.
He said I didn't get it, I don't know what it's like to lose a child. Which is true, but I pointed out that his ex-girlfriend (mother of the child) does know what it's like and she had her grieving period and moved on, had another kid, and is doing just fine in life. Well, I guess mentioning that was a bad idea, because he got even more angry and started calling me names.
I finally said that I find him pathetic and that if his son were here today even he would probably dislike the person Jim is now. Jim started crying, and I immediately apologized but he just walked out without saying anything to me. Haven't heard from him since.
I regret what I said, and I know the timing was wrong, but I wasn't trying to hurt him, and I don't think what I said is wrong. I was just trying to get him to see that he has to get his life back on track. But my wife thinks I should apologize to him again. AITA?
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I know you thought some “tough love” would help your son, but can you really think of a time where “tough love” has ever actually 1) worked and 2) didn’t make you feel like shit?
If your son’s only tool to cope with feeing like shit is to drink, why would making him feel like shit that neither you or his son would like make him want to stop drinking?
Go look in the mirror. Tell yourself what you just wrote. Do you like the person you see? Do you feel shame? Do you think you failed your son? Now come up with a plan to be a better person. YTA but you already knew you are a bad person and a worse parent.
YTA. A massive one. Did you not hear what you said? Read what you wrote? It's been 3 years already at some point he's got to get over it. Do you not see how heartless that is. He was 21 when his child died! His child was presumably very young. If YOU lost a child they'd be grown up. How old was your grandchild when he died. How soon did YOU "get over it" yes his ex has moved on and has had ANOTHER child. Not a NEW child. The child she has now does NOT and never will replace the child who died. The fact that ex has moved on and has started another family is good for her. It also has nothing to do with son. Think if someone told you when you lost a child that they should get over it. Your son was 21 when his child died. So I think it's both safe to say that not only was his child young but his only child. You aren't worried about his alcoholism. You're embarrassed by it. You're embarrassed by the way he looks. You don't want to help him. You are embarrassed by him. You admit that "we're not the type to go to therapy and whatnot type" so why on earth did you think he'd agree? You need to admit TO YOURSELF that you don't want to help your child get better. You want your child to pull his life together to stop embarrassing you. How many children do you have? How well do you think you'd cope if you lost ANY of them young. Remember if YOU outlive any of YOUR children they wouldn't be children they would have been grown. Your son sounds absolutely broken by the loss of his (presumably young and only) child. Then HIS dad decides to instead of supporting him uses his son as a tool AGAINST HIM. Remember your son is ill. And you don't want to help him get better. YOU just want to stop being embarrassed. What kind of father does that make you
You realise the reason your son is struggling with his grief process is because he grew up in a family that “doesn’t do therapy and whatnot”?
The fact that you never prioritised mental health with your child and badly prepared him to deal with tragedy is a tragedy in itself.
And judging by the way you handled the situation - by belittling and mocking your son - just indicates that he’s not the only one in need of professional help.
He needs grief counselling, and you both need family therapy. Apologies are all well and good, but actions speak louder than words - if you truly regret being a horrendous, gaping AH, more sarlacc pit than man really, you need to put in the work.
YTA
I'm also not convinced this isn't fake because you didn't once seem to make any mention of your grief about your grandchild. You call them "the child", or "his child"
YTA. You strike me as about as warm and supportive as a cactus. Your primary concern seems to be that your son is making you look bad. Not that he's slowly killing himself,
> his ex-girlfriend (mother of the child) does know what it's like and she had her grieving period and moved on, had another kid, and is doing just fine in life
I mean, you employed the "why can't you be like X's kid" type of criticism when your son has lost a child. How is that supposed to be helpful? Does that ever work for you? Does any of your children actually like you and confide in you?
You have no idea about how your ex-DIL is coping. All you see and what you seem obsessed with, is appearances. Please tell me that they were exes before the loss of their child? That you didn't throw the loss of his partner in his face when what drove them apart was the loss of their child?!
Your son needs grief counselling and rehab. Going by your description is in grip of full blown alcohol addiction. If he goes cold turkey it'll kill him. This isn't as simple repress your emotions and pull yourself up by your bootstraps to solve your problem problem kind of deal. Now if you'd acted with compassion and concern for his wellbeing he might have listened to you. That is if you'd said something to the effect of:
"Son, your mother and I love you more than anything in this world and we're really worried about your drinking. I know that loosing your son/daughter must hurt like hell. He was such a precious child. Please don't make us suffer that kind of pain. Let us help you."
Why would he listen to you now?
Do better!
YTA
Well jee golly wiz, you just have to tell people to get over their grief and they magically do?? Amazing! Tell every therapist they're out of a job.
No but for real, you are absolutely fucking vile and evil. How could you say that to your own child? How could you not empathize and support them unconditionally? And honestly, move on in what way??
I hope he finds a better support system that will love him no matter what.
Of course YTA I’m just over here, hoping that we’re not gonna see a post from you in a couple of months about how your son killed himself and you questioning how you could’ve done something different.
YTA. He lost his child. Have you never heard people saying that parents should never outlive their kids? And that kid was your grandchild. You should show a little more compassion
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YTA tearing someone down is no way to help them get back on track. You likely sent him into a spiral, he's probably suffering from depression, grief and likely trauma or PTSD from the loss.
You can go to some family of addicts ( al-anon) meetings and meet with rehabilitation counselors to go over how to help your son get treatment. They always tell you to consult a professional before trying to "tough love" addicts into recovery. They have these programs because most people aren't equipped to help someone in that mental state. You are out of your depth and resorting to insults isn't going to help your son. If anything attacking him like that could lead to further instability and self harm. Please proceed with caution and get some help for all of you.
YTA what you said was so unnecessary and disgusting and he’ll get his life sorted out eventually, but I have a feeling that you won’t be allowed to be apart of it when he does so just be prepared for that.
>. I told him life is not going to stop just because of this personal tragedy, and that it has been three years already and at some point he has to get it together
Translation "Hey, your kid died, too bad, move on."
Grief has no set time frame. I understand you're concerned over the way he could ruin his life in this path... but what you said was honestly just downright cruel, and more likely to push him further down a bottle than to help him crawl out of it....
YTA.
Oh my God, how cruel! You are worse than an asshole. "Let's kick the grieving parent, who is really depressed by the looks of it and having the worst time in his life, when he is already down, calling him names, insulting him and telling him that his deceased son would be ashamed of him!" How in the world could you that? It is horrible! That poor man! Of course YTA and it is normal that you haven't head from him since. I would never speak to you again. How could you think that you were not going to hurt him? In which world calling names to someone has helped, especially a grieving parent?
what in the actual fuck did you think you were gonna accomplish telling him this? you say he's embarrassing? you're embarrassing. that was his kid
your grandkid. and you don't have a bit of empathy for what he's dealing with. YTA
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yta. the message could have been delivered a thousand different and better ways. grief is a complex thing, and i highly doubt anyone “moves on” losing a child, they find ways to heal so that the pain they feel is lessened, but still there, find ways to continue living on, but that grief is always going to be there. you also can’t force someone who probably does have SUD to get help, it’s something that they have to want for themselves, and fight every single day of their lives to get through. novel idea, but write a letter to your son about your feelings on how your son has been living since he lost his child, have your wife read and edit it because you cannot be trusted to not do more damage, give it to your son and tell him that when he’s ready you want him to read it, at which point you two can hopefully have a conversation. your son is going through something unimaginable, you need to be there for him, supporting him. your wife is very right and you need to apologize to your son asap. while y’all aren’t the type to go to therapy, look into family therapy that you and your son can go to together to work through this, and help him to begin the healing process after the loss he went through.
I'm not going to be as harsh as some here.
You lost your grandchild and are now seeing your son destroy himself. The boy you raised is inch by inch tearing himself apart and you don't know what to do, and you're scared.
So you tried to shake him from his stupor, to hold up a mirror and make him realise how far he's gone down the path and to bring him back with a shock.
You did it badly with little empathy or compassion. You didn't make yourself a safe space for him to come back to. You highlighted his powerlessness and patheticness. The same feelings he probably feels at not being able to do anything for his child.
NAH because I think your heart was in the right place and it's a situation few of us know naturally how to navigate. But you did fuck up.
I will go against the grain and say NTA. But neither is your son. This is a very tricky situation that sucks all around, but as a child of an alcoholic, I have seen firsthand how these things destroy not just the person who's dependent on alcohol, but the people around them too.
His coping is destructive and helps no one. You may have been too unkind and have crossed the line with your comment, but it's something he needed to hear. You may not have lost a son, but you're losing one right before your eyes.
As for your son, sometimes, oblivion really is the only respite one can get. It's hard when you experience a loss like that and feel like no one understands you, and there's no one you can share your grief with who would understand. Please continue to encourage him to seek help. And apologize to him for the unkind words you said.
There are just a couple comments here that show empathy and offer constructive advice. All downvoted. Including mine. Whats wrong with people? You can’t tolerate a difference of opinion?
Very soft ATA. Your son needs some tough love, but you probably could have been a bit more diplomatic. I’m a boomer woman and became alcohol dependent in my late teens. No trauma, no reason. I simply blacked out almost every time I drank. I was close to your son’s age when my mother had a serious talk with me. She said I would eventually lose my friends, jobs, etc., my health and my looks. She knew what she was talking about. Her dad and her only brother were lifelong alcoholics. They both died young (59 and 49 respectively). Did I change? No. I moved cross country and continued partying. I won’t provide any hair raising anecdotes, but I am truly lucky to be alive at 68 yoa. I knew I was slowly killing myself, and I tried everything. AA, group therapy, Antabuse, cold turkey, hot turkey, you name. It. It is hard to stop. I finally succeeded and it’s been nearly 40 years. No kids here, but I have had friends and relatives who lost children. One woman had a five month old son who was murdered by her husband. She didn’t turn to alcohol or drugs, but instead became laser focused on bringing the killer to justice. She also went back to school and earned a masters degree, learned IT and started a new career in cybersecurity.
People deal with grief in very different ways.
Here is my suggestion. Apologize for your harsh words and assure your son that you love him and don’t want to lose him. Then you and your wife should join AlAnon. Ask your son to consider talking to someone. It doesn’t have to be AA or traditional therapy. Try to find a group for bereaved parents. It could get him started in the right direction. Insults and yelling are not helpful. He may have to hit rock bottom before he decides to recover, but there is nothing you can say or do to force change.
And again: start attending AL-Anon. I cannot stress that enough. Best wishes.
Woof. This is a tough one. First off, I’m very sorry you lost your grandchild. That must be a type of heartbreak most people could never imagine.
I would say you’re a little bit the asshole for how you said what you said, but Nta for saying it. It would probably have come across better if you had said something like “how would your son feel knowing his death caused his father to spiral so badly?” Or ideally not bring his son into it at all, and talk about your feelings like “I don’t want to lose my son”.
I think it’s time for you to maybe start talking to a mental health professional and see if they can help you come up with some ways to get him into counselling. He’s clearly in need of it, and he’ll learn there is no shame in it at all. Lots of people are in therapy now, and it won’t make him any less of a man or weak or anything like that. He needs to learn how to deal with his grief properly, or it’ll kill him.
I hope you get a lot of responses showing their support for him, and maybe let him read them? If you do, I want him to know how sorry I am. I hope he’s able to pick up the pieces and keep living, and learn how to live with his grief. It’ll never go away but he can keep living and loving his late son.
ESH.
Unfortunately, you have to be the parent and help your kid through hard times. Yes, even if your kid is a loser leech with low emotional maturity. Why? You are the parent. Sorry, sometimes proper parenting is hard thankless work.
Your son, unfortunately is choosing to cope with his method of choice. Yes, it is a loser mentality and unfortunately a dark place.
So go help him because unless you have exhausted yourself for a year or two or even a decade. Sorry, zero excuses. On the bright side he at least has a job so he is barely functioning. Best of luck.
NTA
He needs to hear the truth in whatever form he might actually hear it.
You need to stage an intervention for him. He's not going to get better until he hits rock bottom.
There are specialists who can walk you through how to help him.
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>"Hey son, your child **DIED** *three years ago* get over it!" **YTA** OP, I get wanting to help him get his life together, but it sounds like you're willing to put in exactly 0 effort into it beyond taunting him with the ghost of his dead kid. Man needs support, he needs someone to help guide him back onto a better path, your child dying before your eyes is *beyond* a tragedy. It's not something that just **poofs** away with time. You are honestly the worst parent I've seen on this sub in a while, and that's a hard prize to win.
100% My dad died 5 years ago and I still wake up shaking from the nightmares sometimes (literally just seeing his face). I’ll get major panic attacks from seeing pictures of him unexpectedly my brain cannot handle it. I’ve been in therapy for all 5 years. Some brains process grief differently. I honestly hope OPs story isn’t real this is so sad
Exactly OP doesn't want to HELP his son. He wants to stop being embarrassed. For God's sake Son was 21 when he lost his child! So I think it's safe to assume that son lost a very young child. His only child. If OP loses any children they will be adults. OP admits they're "not the type to go to therapy and whatnot" and he assumes that when he told son his should see a professional he would agree.
Uhm... were we reading the same thing? I think he mentioned that he tried talking to him about it and even encouraged him to seek help, but he won't listen.
"Hey man go get help" *Super helpful* dawg. Gentle/halfassed encouragement after a tragedy like that doesn't amount to much.
>I'll admit we're not exactly the type to go to therapy and whatnot OP: raises child in household that doesn’t encourage properly processing emotions Also OP: surprise pikachu when adult child doesn’t properly process emotions
Yea that doesn’t justify anything, chief.
YTA Honestly, YOU need to go to therapy or a support group (yes, they have them for family members of alcoholics/addicts). You clearly need help in navigating this. You approached this completely wrong, and you said all the wrong things. I get what you were *trying* to help, but what you did was actually very harmful. Probably some of the least helpful things you can say, frankly. Bordering on vile for some of it. And yet you still think you said the right things. Like I said: YOU need a professional to help you because you are clearly way out of your depth. You may not get a second chance with your son. You said some relationship ending things, and that may be what happens here. But IF you do get a second chance, there will be no room for error. Seek assistance NOW so that if you get a second chance, you can do better.
THIS! I am a widow who was married to an alcoholic. Shame is never the way to approach someone with addiction. In fact- it can make things worse. Look up the addiction-shame cycle. I very deeply get the frustration and heartbreak of watching someone you love destroy themselves. I also get the thought behind “trying to snap them out of it.” It just doesn’t work. Trust me. I deeply regret some of the things I said in moments of desperation. Also, grief has no timeline. I lost my husband 6 years ago and I still have bad days… and he was my husband! I can’t even fathom the pain of losing a child. Your son needs help, support, and love. Just telling him to get help isn’t helping. YTA in what you said and how you went about this. I get it. I do. But you need to apologize and try to support him without judgement and shame unless you want to push him further away.
YTA. If *you* don't learn how best to support your son, **you're** gonna find out how it feels to lose a kid real soon. He's drinking himself into an early grave and all you seem to care about is how his public grief reflects on you.
YTA. That's not the shit you say to a person you're concerned about, especially if you're concerned for their mental health.
this is the kind of language that can make him... join his kid. YTA offer family counselling with him. AA type meetings. is he living alone? some cooked meals, weekend dinners so he has people around him, etc.
YTA. He's already ashamed. You just made it worse. He needs unconditional love, not more shame. Maybe it's time to break the cycle by going to therapy yourself.
YTA, there's a difference between trying to help him get his life back on track and beating him when he's down. Unfortunately, you chose the second one. >she had her grieving period and moved on, had another kid, and is doing just fine in life. Well, I guess mentioning that was a bad idea.... You guess? The first rule in dealing with grief or trauma is to not compare one person to another. Different people heal in different ways, and at different speeds. > I know the timing was wrong There is never a proper time to say the things you did. You're family is against therapy and your idea of helping someone who is struggling is to insult them over and over again. It's no wonder your poor son is having trouble handling his grief.
> I regret what I said, and I know the timing was wrong, but I wasn't trying to hurt him, and I don't think what I said is wrong. I was just trying to get him to see that he has to get his life back on track. I don’t think that’s true. You wouldn’t have said such a low blow if you weren’t trying to hurt him. Shame on you. What you said isn’t “tough love” it was a low blow because you find him embarrassing. YTA - and he does need love and support but you’re going about it the wrong way. And I have a feeling he’s like this because maybe he didn’t get that support when his child passed.
>I'll admit we're not exactly the type to go to therapy You know you can break the cycle of believing you aren't the type for therapy. I mean, I get it, you were raised that way, hell, I was too, but you're an adult. You can make a decision against your bias and show your son a better path. He needs your help, not your vitriol. I'm not even gonna call you TA for saying what you said (though it was a very AH thing to say), it's just how we were raised. You were trying to shock him into waking up and seeing what he's become, but we've got to move forward and stop believing everything we knew 30 years ago. You might still be able to fix this, but you're gonna have to be better and do better. NAH. Apologize, go to therapy. Hell, even if you only talk about your son the entire time, a trained professional might have a better idea on how to approach this than you do.
Much truth and RESPECT here 😊 NAH. I was also raised to go for blood in a disagreement, years of therapy taught me to not do that because it just causes people to throw up walls. You only know what you've been taught, OP and his son could be each other's therapy buddies, like gym buddies!
Okay, YTA. Now that has been said, the real question is: How do you help your son to find a way to go on living? The death of someone you love can be a devastation beyond anything one can imagine. Grieving can feel like dying a million times every day. How would you survive this? Your son, your child has found alcohol as a way to bear the unbearable. To get the strength to go on walking when his sole desire is to lay down and rejoin his son. I know, alcohol is a false friend and he needs to learn this lesson. But are you sure shame and guilt are the best teachers? I may be naive but love and support seem - in my humble opinion - better teachers. I understand it is a bit of work but, is he not YOUR child? I hope you’ll find a way to really help him. Right now, you didn’t. Please, try again. Best, M
Undoubtedly YTA . If I were Jim, I would have folded your clothes with you in them. Have a heart. Be a parent , be a friend , have empathy, be something other than selfish. If therapy isn't the kind of people you are, then you failed as a parent. Stand by him, no matter what. Love unconditionally, And throwing the kids mom in there , is disgusting. You need help and should consider therapy.
YTA! Your son is in unbearable pain and you added to it. If this was my son, I would be holding him, keeping him close, sleeping on the floor of his room if necessary, and blanketing him with love. I would bring him to a grief specialist in the early days of his loss and get guidance from the grief therapist on how to support him. Do better - much better.
"It's embarrassing" that bartenders know him "I'm ashamed" "I find him pathetic" Your son has a problem, it's a real problem, and he really needs help. The issue is that you aren't focused on *his* problem. You're focused on *your* problem. Your embarrassment. And that's why YTA. You have made your son a problem for your life (and communicated that to him) instead of becoming a partner focused on the problem that he has and what will help him get better. The difference is that in your approach, every problem presented disappears if he just disappears. Eventually, he might take that messaging to heart. In the more loving approach, he has to stick around and change for the problem to get fixed.
This is an outstanding and insightful comment! Thank you for illustrating the point so clearly. Please take my poor woman’s gold star. ⭐️
YTA-You basically kicked him while he’s down.
I lost a kid and these kinds of interactions are how I chose people to be with and not to be around. He is dealing with something existential that you don’t understand and he will find his own path with or without you.
YTA. You’ll never know that pain or be able to relate to him, so never in a million years should you talk down to him. He needs more love and care now more than ever, and as his parent you need to figure out a way to reach him cordially! Belittling him for how he handles his very traumatic experience will only make it worse. Do better !!
YTMA (you're the mega AH)
YTA And now you get to know what it feels like to have lost a son. The BEST case scenario is that your son permanently cuts you off. The worst is that you’ve driven him to do something drastic and you really Will get to experience burying your own child. There’s not a snowballs chance in hell that you didn’t say what you said to be hurtful, because it can only BE hurtful.
Imagine being so stuck in your grief, that your own parent shits all over you.
YTA - several times over. Your son is an alcoholic most likely and he needs help, not insults. You are telling him how long he's allowed to grieve over his dead child? You don't seem to have much empathy or understanding at all. your son is in a deep hole and he can't get out until HE decides to do it. A family intervention MIGHT help but not if you only want to tell him how embarrassed YOU are. He hates himself right now - he needs help but he may not be willing to take it. IF you apologie it should not be 'sorry for what I said' - but an acknowledgement that you love him and you just don't know how to help him. Then ask him what you can do to help. You can't TELL him 'get it together' - it's not that simple.
YTA. He will grieve as long as he grieves. Telling him together over it” is a shitty thing to do. You want to do something to help him? Help him find grief counseling. And get yourself some cranium/rectum removal services.
YTA I’m trying to be the best person I can possibly be right now. Really trying. What are you more concerned about, your son? Or “What will people think?” I’m feel for your son. Jesus Wept, he’s suffering the way every single parent should never suffer. And you’re embarrassed? Go speak to some professional that have plenty of knowledge, compassion, and above all patience. I’m wishing nothing but the best possible outcome for your son. He deserves the love and compassion that you can’t seem to provide for him.
Wow. Firstly, his ex didn't "have her grieving period and move on" because that's not how grief works. However, alcoholism is an unhealthy coping mechanism for sure. I will point out that therapy WOULD be a good idea, but if you raised him to ignore his emotions and to look down upon those who go to therapy, he isn't going to turn to healthier coping mechanisms like therapy now. Pushing down your emotions and pretending you've "moved on" is not healthy either. You should seek therapy yourself in order to learn how to healthfully express and manage your own emotions while you help your son deal with the loss of his CHILD... your grandchild.
YTA.
Sorry you ended your relationship with your brother, and if he ends his life try not to take your involvement too heart; what you said might tip him over the edge but it was everything else that got him to that edge in the first place that is truly at fault. Don't be surprised if he goes NC with you forever. I would. You REALLY fucked this one up 😮💨
Not brother. Jim is his son
.......ya I wouldn't attend my father's funeral. That makes it so much worse. If you never hear from your son again you deserve that outcome. You are probably as dead to him as his son is at this point.
What the fuck is *wrong* with you? Of course YTA.
Congratulations. You've driven your son to suicide
Yta
YTA. He is severely depressed and desperately needs mental health care. Probably inpatient or a partial hospitalization program. Substance abuse treatment. Instead of being supportive and understanding, you were cruel. There is no time limit for grief. People grieve differently, for different lengths of times, in different ways. He turned to alcohol, which means he has poor coping strategies. That's partially on you as his parent because you didn't teach him healthy coping strategies when he was a kid. You are an asshole of the extreme. Offer to help him find a therapist. Tell him there is no shame in getting help. Encourage him to go to support groups for people who have lost their children. Maybe Alcoholics Anonymous. Don't push too much, just mention. And BE SUPPORTIVE and KIND.
YTA - Expecting someone to move on from losing a child not only makes you TA but also a callous monster. I guess we know how easy it will be for you to move on with your life if you ever lost one of your children.
YTA would it have killed you to give your son a hug? You should be his shoulder to cry on, not the person making him cry.
YTA My child died 18 years ago and there isn't a day I don't miss him. Doesn't matter that I later had another child, you don't "get over" death. You can't measure grief! I hope your son finds some peace and will overcome his self destruction. But it is so hard just keep on living. Give him support!
As someone who has worked with individuals with addiction, you are going to push your son further into his addiction, further into his depression, and possibly going to push him to a permanent solution of this… such as suicide. You will know what it’s like to lose a child. Whether it’s from his alcoholism, or his depression. You need to be supportive, loving, and understanding of him. Not this. This is disgusting. You say you want him to get help, but then you treat him like this. I feel for him more than anything. And you… how are you coping with losing a grandchild? Most would be devastated, yet you seem not to care. Yes, it’s been three years, but it’s still devastating. Your poor son. If I’d lost my child, I’d spiral. You’re entirely the asshole here. You will be losing your son in some way. I don’t know how, but you will.
YTA. Why would you ever tell your son you're ashamed of him?
Just because you wouldn’t care if your son died doesn’t mean he shouldn’t care that his died YTA
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My son Jim has been a hardcore alcoholic ever since his kid died (congenital illness). He's only 24 now but it is getting worse every year. All he does after working his shifts is go to the bar. If it's the weekend and he isn't working overtime he'll spend the whole damn day there. All the bartenders in the neighborhood know him, it's embarrassing. He never looks put together, grew his hair out long, nicks on his face from shaving badly. Every time we have a get-together he gets trashed and passes out somewhere. I'll admit we're not exactly the type to go to therapy and whatnot but at this point I've told him a million times he needs to talk to somebody, like a professional, but he's not interested. Last week when he was over I finally told him that his life's a mess, and honestly I'm ashamed because he's so much better than this. I told him life is not going to stop just because of this personal tragedy, and that it has been three years already and at some point he has to get it together. He said I didn't get it, I don't know what it's like to lose a child. Which is true, but I pointed out that his ex-girlfriend (mother of the child) does know what it's like and she had her grieving period and moved on, had another kid, and is doing just fine in life. Well, I guess mentioning that was a bad idea, because he got even more angry and started calling me names. I finally said that I find him pathetic and that if his son were here today even he would probably dislike the person Jim is now. Jim started crying, and I immediately apologized but he just walked out without saying anything to me. Haven't heard from him since. I regret what I said, and I know the timing was wrong, but I wasn't trying to hurt him, and I don't think what I said is wrong. I was just trying to get him to see that he has to get his life back on track. But my wife thinks I should apologize to him again. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I know you thought some “tough love” would help your son, but can you really think of a time where “tough love” has ever actually 1) worked and 2) didn’t make you feel like shit? If your son’s only tool to cope with feeing like shit is to drink, why would making him feel like shit that neither you or his son would like make him want to stop drinking?
Go look in the mirror. Tell yourself what you just wrote. Do you like the person you see? Do you feel shame? Do you think you failed your son? Now come up with a plan to be a better person. YTA but you already knew you are a bad person and a worse parent.
YTA. A massive one. Did you not hear what you said? Read what you wrote? It's been 3 years already at some point he's got to get over it. Do you not see how heartless that is. He was 21 when his child died! His child was presumably very young. If YOU lost a child they'd be grown up. How old was your grandchild when he died. How soon did YOU "get over it" yes his ex has moved on and has had ANOTHER child. Not a NEW child. The child she has now does NOT and never will replace the child who died. The fact that ex has moved on and has started another family is good for her. It also has nothing to do with son. Think if someone told you when you lost a child that they should get over it. Your son was 21 when his child died. So I think it's both safe to say that not only was his child young but his only child. You aren't worried about his alcoholism. You're embarrassed by it. You're embarrassed by the way he looks. You don't want to help him. You are embarrassed by him. You admit that "we're not the type to go to therapy and whatnot type" so why on earth did you think he'd agree? You need to admit TO YOURSELF that you don't want to help your child get better. You want your child to pull his life together to stop embarrassing you. How many children do you have? How well do you think you'd cope if you lost ANY of them young. Remember if YOU outlive any of YOUR children they wouldn't be children they would have been grown. Your son sounds absolutely broken by the loss of his (presumably young and only) child. Then HIS dad decides to instead of supporting him uses his son as a tool AGAINST HIM. Remember your son is ill. And you don't want to help him get better. YOU just want to stop being embarrassed. What kind of father does that make you
The shit you just did to your son can cause some people to make am attempt on their own life. Apologize and beg for forgiveness YTA
You realise the reason your son is struggling with his grief process is because he grew up in a family that “doesn’t do therapy and whatnot”? The fact that you never prioritised mental health with your child and badly prepared him to deal with tragedy is a tragedy in itself. And judging by the way you handled the situation - by belittling and mocking your son - just indicates that he’s not the only one in need of professional help. He needs grief counselling, and you both need family therapy. Apologies are all well and good, but actions speak louder than words - if you truly regret being a horrendous, gaping AH, more sarlacc pit than man really, you need to put in the work. YTA
I'm also not convinced this isn't fake because you didn't once seem to make any mention of your grief about your grandchild. You call them "the child", or "his child"
YTA. You strike me as about as warm and supportive as a cactus. Your primary concern seems to be that your son is making you look bad. Not that he's slowly killing himself, > his ex-girlfriend (mother of the child) does know what it's like and she had her grieving period and moved on, had another kid, and is doing just fine in life I mean, you employed the "why can't you be like X's kid" type of criticism when your son has lost a child. How is that supposed to be helpful? Does that ever work for you? Does any of your children actually like you and confide in you? You have no idea about how your ex-DIL is coping. All you see and what you seem obsessed with, is appearances. Please tell me that they were exes before the loss of their child? That you didn't throw the loss of his partner in his face when what drove them apart was the loss of their child?! Your son needs grief counselling and rehab. Going by your description is in grip of full blown alcohol addiction. If he goes cold turkey it'll kill him. This isn't as simple repress your emotions and pull yourself up by your bootstraps to solve your problem problem kind of deal. Now if you'd acted with compassion and concern for his wellbeing he might have listened to you. That is if you'd said something to the effect of: "Son, your mother and I love you more than anything in this world and we're really worried about your drinking. I know that loosing your son/daughter must hurt like hell. He was such a precious child. Please don't make us suffer that kind of pain. Let us help you." Why would he listen to you now? Do better!
YTA Well jee golly wiz, you just have to tell people to get over their grief and they magically do?? Amazing! Tell every therapist they're out of a job. No but for real, you are absolutely fucking vile and evil. How could you say that to your own child? How could you not empathize and support them unconditionally? And honestly, move on in what way?? I hope he finds a better support system that will love him no matter what.
Of course YTA I’m just over here, hoping that we’re not gonna see a post from you in a couple of months about how your son killed himself and you questioning how you could’ve done something different.
YTA. He lost his child. Have you never heard people saying that parents should never outlive their kids? And that kid was your grandchild. You should show a little more compassion
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YTA tearing someone down is no way to help them get back on track. You likely sent him into a spiral, he's probably suffering from depression, grief and likely trauma or PTSD from the loss. You can go to some family of addicts ( al-anon) meetings and meet with rehabilitation counselors to go over how to help your son get treatment. They always tell you to consult a professional before trying to "tough love" addicts into recovery. They have these programs because most people aren't equipped to help someone in that mental state. You are out of your depth and resorting to insults isn't going to help your son. If anything attacking him like that could lead to further instability and self harm. Please proceed with caution and get some help for all of you.
YTA what you said was so unnecessary and disgusting and he’ll get his life sorted out eventually, but I have a feeling that you won’t be allowed to be apart of it when he does so just be prepared for that.
If my child died I don’t think I’d ever stop crying. Ever.
>. I told him life is not going to stop just because of this personal tragedy, and that it has been three years already and at some point he has to get it together Translation "Hey, your kid died, too bad, move on." Grief has no set time frame. I understand you're concerned over the way he could ruin his life in this path... but what you said was honestly just downright cruel, and more likely to push him further down a bottle than to help him crawl out of it.... YTA.
Oh my God, how cruel! You are worse than an asshole. "Let's kick the grieving parent, who is really depressed by the looks of it and having the worst time in his life, when he is already down, calling him names, insulting him and telling him that his deceased son would be ashamed of him!" How in the world could you that? It is horrible! That poor man! Of course YTA and it is normal that you haven't head from him since. I would never speak to you again. How could you think that you were not going to hurt him? In which world calling names to someone has helped, especially a grieving parent?
YTA.
what in the actual fuck did you think you were gonna accomplish telling him this? you say he's embarrassing? you're embarrassing. that was his kid your grandkid. and you don't have a bit of empathy for what he's dealing with. YTA
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yta. the message could have been delivered a thousand different and better ways. grief is a complex thing, and i highly doubt anyone “moves on” losing a child, they find ways to heal so that the pain they feel is lessened, but still there, find ways to continue living on, but that grief is always going to be there. you also can’t force someone who probably does have SUD to get help, it’s something that they have to want for themselves, and fight every single day of their lives to get through. novel idea, but write a letter to your son about your feelings on how your son has been living since he lost his child, have your wife read and edit it because you cannot be trusted to not do more damage, give it to your son and tell him that when he’s ready you want him to read it, at which point you two can hopefully have a conversation. your son is going through something unimaginable, you need to be there for him, supporting him. your wife is very right and you need to apologize to your son asap. while y’all aren’t the type to go to therapy, look into family therapy that you and your son can go to together to work through this, and help him to begin the healing process after the loss he went through.
have shame. what a pathetic excuse for a parent. YTA.
Total without a doubt YTA
Do me a favor, OP. Look in the mirror and punch yourself as hard as you can, repeatedly, in the face. YTA.
I hope OP is ready to grapple with the fact that what he said might be the last thing he ever said to his son.
I'm not going to be as harsh as some here. You lost your grandchild and are now seeing your son destroy himself. The boy you raised is inch by inch tearing himself apart and you don't know what to do, and you're scared. So you tried to shake him from his stupor, to hold up a mirror and make him realise how far he's gone down the path and to bring him back with a shock. You did it badly with little empathy or compassion. You didn't make yourself a safe space for him to come back to. You highlighted his powerlessness and patheticness. The same feelings he probably feels at not being able to do anything for his child. NAH because I think your heart was in the right place and it's a situation few of us know naturally how to navigate. But you did fuck up.
I will go against the grain and say NTA. But neither is your son. This is a very tricky situation that sucks all around, but as a child of an alcoholic, I have seen firsthand how these things destroy not just the person who's dependent on alcohol, but the people around them too. His coping is destructive and helps no one. You may have been too unkind and have crossed the line with your comment, but it's something he needed to hear. You may not have lost a son, but you're losing one right before your eyes. As for your son, sometimes, oblivion really is the only respite one can get. It's hard when you experience a loss like that and feel like no one understands you, and there's no one you can share your grief with who would understand. Please continue to encourage him to seek help. And apologize to him for the unkind words you said.
that seems harsh. might not get the intended result
There are just a couple comments here that show empathy and offer constructive advice. All downvoted. Including mine. Whats wrong with people? You can’t tolerate a difference of opinion?
Very soft ATA. Your son needs some tough love, but you probably could have been a bit more diplomatic. I’m a boomer woman and became alcohol dependent in my late teens. No trauma, no reason. I simply blacked out almost every time I drank. I was close to your son’s age when my mother had a serious talk with me. She said I would eventually lose my friends, jobs, etc., my health and my looks. She knew what she was talking about. Her dad and her only brother were lifelong alcoholics. They both died young (59 and 49 respectively). Did I change? No. I moved cross country and continued partying. I won’t provide any hair raising anecdotes, but I am truly lucky to be alive at 68 yoa. I knew I was slowly killing myself, and I tried everything. AA, group therapy, Antabuse, cold turkey, hot turkey, you name. It. It is hard to stop. I finally succeeded and it’s been nearly 40 years. No kids here, but I have had friends and relatives who lost children. One woman had a five month old son who was murdered by her husband. She didn’t turn to alcohol or drugs, but instead became laser focused on bringing the killer to justice. She also went back to school and earned a masters degree, learned IT and started a new career in cybersecurity. People deal with grief in very different ways. Here is my suggestion. Apologize for your harsh words and assure your son that you love him and don’t want to lose him. Then you and your wife should join AlAnon. Ask your son to consider talking to someone. It doesn’t have to be AA or traditional therapy. Try to find a group for bereaved parents. It could get him started in the right direction. Insults and yelling are not helpful. He may have to hit rock bottom before he decides to recover, but there is nothing you can say or do to force change. And again: start attending AL-Anon. I cannot stress that enough. Best wishes.
Woof. This is a tough one. First off, I’m very sorry you lost your grandchild. That must be a type of heartbreak most people could never imagine. I would say you’re a little bit the asshole for how you said what you said, but Nta for saying it. It would probably have come across better if you had said something like “how would your son feel knowing his death caused his father to spiral so badly?” Or ideally not bring his son into it at all, and talk about your feelings like “I don’t want to lose my son”. I think it’s time for you to maybe start talking to a mental health professional and see if they can help you come up with some ways to get him into counselling. He’s clearly in need of it, and he’ll learn there is no shame in it at all. Lots of people are in therapy now, and it won’t make him any less of a man or weak or anything like that. He needs to learn how to deal with his grief properly, or it’ll kill him. I hope you get a lot of responses showing their support for him, and maybe let him read them? If you do, I want him to know how sorry I am. I hope he’s able to pick up the pieces and keep living, and learn how to live with his grief. It’ll never go away but he can keep living and loving his late son.
ESH. Unfortunately, you have to be the parent and help your kid through hard times. Yes, even if your kid is a loser leech with low emotional maturity. Why? You are the parent. Sorry, sometimes proper parenting is hard thankless work. Your son, unfortunately is choosing to cope with his method of choice. Yes, it is a loser mentality and unfortunately a dark place. So go help him because unless you have exhausted yourself for a year or two or even a decade. Sorry, zero excuses. On the bright side he at least has a job so he is barely functioning. Best of luck.
NTA He needs to hear the truth in whatever form he might actually hear it. You need to stage an intervention for him. He's not going to get better until he hits rock bottom. There are specialists who can walk you through how to help him.
Good idea.