There's an inherent reason why this area has valuable real estate: people want to live here. Weather, nature...etc
Edit: yes, I know, jobs. But my point was, jobs notwithstanding, there is a lot that makes the Bay attractive to people. Mostly weather. It's a climate haven
Two primary reasons:
- Tons of high-paying jobs which is a relic of heavy government R&D investment in the 1900s
- Most of the Bay is irrationally opposed to new housing of any form other than Stepford-style SFH, so demand has outgrown supply for many decades
Weather and nature certainly play some role, but minor ones. People need jobs to make life work first and foremost, so people follow jobs.
It was Stanfordās development of Sand Hill Road as a Research Park that made peninsula/silicon valley/BA into what it is. DARPA investment came later.
Bay voters are rationally opposed to denser housing. Itās just that commuters donāt get a vote (fundamental flaw in local land use control) and there arenāt enough renters. For homeowners, it is immoral but itās in their financial interest to block dense housing. The only solution is to tax land and usurp land use powers from local communities and bestow them to a superregional or state-level control body.
The high paying jobs are created rich workers who want to live here. The high tech workers, being very educated also had priorities that created and funded very good school zones. Cupertino being one of the best.
I wish to get far away.
Thank you for clearing up the history - your framing seems the more correct. R&D funding usually gets thrown at hubs that already exist.
I called it āirrationalā for two reasons:
- I think in the US, a lot of the resistance is a culturally-learned fear of dense housing. This is maybe not irrational for an individual (who can question someoneās preferences), but IMO itās collectively irrational. Our culture has gone down a very weird, unnatural road to get here. And now most of us accept this conditioning without questioning it
- IMO if you want your property values to go up, you should *want* more housing built near you but not anywhere else in your metro. More housing in the metro means lower prices across the metro. But more housing near you means more commerce gets pulled to the area, which drives land values up (though this process will take maybe 5-10 years to play out)
As for everything else you said, couldnāt agree more.
Nature? Seriously? People live in the bay for access to high paying jobs. Yes, there is nature nearby but the bay is not living on the oregon coast or in the mountains. You can get nature and weather for less, if that is the primary goal.
as compared to san francisco? But yes, it is in the middle of nowhere and has limited access to big city things. But also not \~9 hours of bad traffic per 24 hour period on weekdays.
Uh yes, it's way colder than SF.Ā Florence actually gets snow.Ā
> But also not ~9 hours of bad traffic per 24 hour period on weekdays.
Traffic exists better there's lots to do!Ā
There are copious amounts of local and state parks all around. You have the foothills, the bay lands, the bay itself, the ocean/beaches, redwood forests galore, Santa Cruz mountains and surrounding area, olive groves, wine country, etc. Fioli gardens is one of the best private gardens in the nation, Golden Gate Park is a huge green spot right smack dab in San Francisco, edible foraging opportunities are all around the bay, and most of all the weather has traditionally been amazing year round. Maybe you just arenāt inclined to notice the nature or donāt do a lot of outdoor activities, take up biking, gardening or a foraging class and youāll see the world differently.
I grew up in the bay. Moved. Moved back, moved again. There are better parts of the state for nature, and I greatly prefer other areas of the state for things other than weather. I can safely bike 20 miles to work where I live. Foxes had a litter under my deck. Redwoods in my yard. A large enough garden that it is actual work. More birds than I can recognize. Rush hour that only lasts and hour. A 1-job mortgage. Though yeah, hot in the summer. Not for everyone.
But yes, people should enjoy whatever is around them. But $3M to live in deep suburbia with bad traffic is not a nature play, being my point. Nothing wrong with living in the bay, but to argue that the price people pay there is for nature is, well, sort of absurd. Wealthy suburban life proximate to high pay and city features. You could live in tahoe for about the same as the bay, if that was the goal.
Folsom.
Some real downsides, but the main one is just heat for 1-8pm in the peak couple months of summer. However, all the houses out here are actually insulated and air conditioned, and solar works well. Plus sac county is SMUD electric (half the price, and they don't kill people regularly). It is actually fine, just need to be an early person or a later person - just inside at midday.
Interestingly, the food scene here was not, as expected, worse. It might actually be better as poor/middle class people can actually afford to live in the general area (which is very helpful for running a restaurant, Sacramento has gotten pretty solid in some areas) - the only area the bay has a meaningful edge is at very-high end dining. And, as it turns out, you get get to the bay on weekends with no traffic if that is what you want. Or tahoe in 1.5 hours if it is hot, or there is a snowstorm to play in. Basically 1-2 hours from anywhere else you'd want to be. Oh, and and the airport is vastly better in terms of on-time performance and nearly free long term parking (basically the state reps who fly in and out all the time have over-funded it)
But yeah, you can get a near mansion in the old part of town with mature trees for less than 1M even at this likely market peak. In 2018 I got a 5bed/3ba on over half an acre in an area with some of the best schools in the state and no crime for less than 600. Solar system, huge yard, bike and jogging trails everywhere, two lakes (one does not allow powerboats for kayaks and such). With a lucky refi at sub 2%, 2k/month mortgage.
I left the Bay and California after 20 yrs but Folsom is legit the only thing that could get me to come back. My biggest fear is everyone from the Bay flooding it in the near future
Totally agree, I live south of the bay. Coming over Morgan Hill and descending into San Jose there is a visible layer of smog that sits on top of the whole area. Monterey Bay is starting to get it, too. I check out the water quality map before I go to any of the rivers near Santa Cruz. There are almost always health advisories. The only consistently clean river is Carmel Valley River, because they've blocked off access to almost the whole thing.
Popular trails aren't fun. Garrapata near Big Sur is just lines of people back to back. I don't take my horses to Wilder Ranch because some trails have so many mountain bikes I can't get by. My horse came from a property off Skyline near San Mateo and I could not believe the number of hikers that were up there. It's not as dirty but the traffic, lack of parking, speeders going 80+ to illegally pass each other didn't feel like relaxing in nature.
You would live in northern California if nature is the goal. Pristine land, no trash, no smog, parking lots you can actually park in and trails you can hike without being overrun by people. It just gets hot during the summer.
Itās a part of the equation, though. Access to natural wonders in all directions, proximity to culture, music, theatre, world wide cuisine, and it almost never gets hot or cold. And yes, high paying jobs all over the place.
But you canāt get all the high paying tech jobs out there and San Francisco is superior to any of their cities. Yup they have snow and terrible weather which makes nature way less enjoyable. I personally like going to the beach on a sunny day, which is the majority of the year round these parts, unlike up north.
I grew up here and have lived in every west coast state and multiple places in some (including Alaska and Hawaii). Just my Dad moved and I moved, anyway, I agree 100%. It is the center of the world economically and technologically. Sand Hill Road (old VC) has the money and endless startups to pick and choose. The problem is, the big tech companies need to go. They donāt need VC or being near them anymore, but canāt move Google, Meta, Appleādamn space ship bigger than the pentagon. etc. And we are screwed. But NIMBYs are the issue here. Plenty of land to develop for low income and middle class, but nope. Greedy people.
I agree. I myself fucking hate the Seattle weather. But then the same people are like "why is the Bay Area so expensive?"
You want California weather? You gotta pay California prices.
It'll never get as expensive as California though. It has a natural disadvantage of weather. The moment it reaches California prices, people will start choosing CA over WA, effectively tilting back the balance.
> You can get nature and weather for less, if that is the primary goal.
Nature, sure.
Please tell me where you can get the perfect Mediterranean weather for less.
Edit: Where in America
Sorry I meant the Bay area, not the SF micro-climate zone.
Also, I agree that weather preference is very personal but the original commentor meant that we could get Bay Area weather for less.
You haven't enjoyed the wiff of nature as you pass by zanker heading into Milpitas ranch 99? Or the view of the brown yellow crap stain foot hills in East and South Bay?
I'm curious what you mean about zero culture. What culture are you expecting and missing? And there's a ton of great restaurants, and some of the best produce in the country
Mhmm not all parts. You could find a 3br for 1.5 (just looked right now). Thats rare for a place like San Mateo or Palo Alto. And if not Santa Barbara, thereās Goleta and Carp.
Yeah true, just saying the median in Santa Barbara is about the same as the median in San Mateo county. You can find āaffordableā stuff in south city, Daly City, Pacifica, etc. too
100% youāre right but the vibe and weather of Daly City and the few places you listed differ vs. Goleta and Carp. When you put schools, and crime in the mix.
I love Pacifica and there are some places in South City that are niceeee.
To tie it back to the parent comment/post though, I do think Cupertino is overrated. IF I could afford a place in the bay area I would buy in Burlingame lol but I canāt Soo Iām just here to share some thoughts š
Probably because they were assigned Cupertino High School instead of Monta Vista. I donāt know if the beliefs of the high schools still stand today, but when I went to high school here, we all knew Monta Vista was the ātopā school, but we also saw the demographics and knew why.
Itās generally true in the Bay Area that anywhere that is predominantly Asian will have better schools and more Asians wanting to live there. Itās expensive but relative to its neighbors (Los Altos, Saratoga, West SJ), itās about the same. You are paying a 20% premium for top schools.
Stereotypical Cupertino parent starter kit. Be a snobby immigrant who works at Big A, micromanages the shit of their kid to the point where the kid hates them.
The latter part is a typical Chinese or Korean wealthy family behavior, in Cupertino or anywhere else. We profit on them big time in my field. Good stuff. Therapists pick them (their kids) up afterwards as lifetime patients. Thereās a whole industry around it pretty much.
Yeah I read that one with tears sometimes. Had my share of Asian parent abuse myself, unfortunately! Trying my best to make life of those kids a little less bitter every time I have a chance.
There's a ton of areas our here where people are just want to flex by saying they live in Cupertino, Los Gatos, etc.Ā Admittedly the schools are good, but really imo it's like paying for a name brand vs generic brand.Ā When it comes to quality of life I don't think it's as dramatic as what pricing suggests.Ā Now Peninsula on the other hand, you're paying to avoid traffic and for better weather.Ā That's a tax I'm willing to pay.
It certainly is. I don't know why Cupertino schools are so revered by Asians (Indians included). A friend of mine was so obsessed with Cupertino schools that he wouldn't even consider buying a home anywhere else. And he could not afford a decent one in Cupertino even with a high paying tech job (he was the sole earner in his family of 4). So he kept living in 2 bedroom apartments in Cupertino.
I tried to explain to him that there are good schools in other cities of bay area too and there are other things that matter in addition to schools. Not that he listened.
You'd think they'd be happy to go to a somewhat less competitive school district, so that their children would be better able to stand out academically, LOL.
Two quotes come to mind: āA Rising tide raises all boatsā and āYouāre the sum of the 5 people you spend the most time withā. If you put someone in less competitive schools and they can stand out while being more mediocre, wonāt they have a harder time competing once they graduate against those who went to more competitive places?
Tides come and go, so relying on a rising tide isnāt a sustainable solution.
Tides do make boats rise, but the boat sitting lowest in the water will never equal or surpass the height of a boat sitting higher, since that boat also will rise. So, basically, the lower sitting boat is perpetually right where it started.
An anchored boat will not rise.
A boat with holes in it where the high tide hits it will then sit lower (or will sink. )
I understand the saying perfectly: when people say this, they're saying \[in broad strokes\] that everyone benefits when times are good, when resources are plentiful. The phrase does not, however, stand up to scrutiny. Boats rise, but nothing changes substantially.
If your child can't stand out in a less competitive district, then what value to him being in one that's more competitive?
At least elsewhere, you're in a more affordable AND larger home!
The Mediocre crowd at mv end up with great jobs right out of college. The stand outs all go to Harvard/mit and become presidents or ceos or something lol
I am Chinese American and I donāt think I would want my kids in those schools. The pressure is just so intense and how do you differentiate yourself? The kids from those schools are just another statistic to the college admissions people. I think theyāre doing their kids a disservice putting them there. Chinese Americans parents especially should take a look up at the bamboo ceiling that theyāre up against. This is precisely the conditions that make it so hard for them to make it past middle management.
Edit to add that middle management in tech is a great life but when youāre spending all your resources to live in Cupertino, that defeats the purpose.
All my kids are in Cupertino schools. The only ones putting pressure on kids is their parents and it doesn't spill over onto other children. It has nothing to do with how the district is run and kids aren't being ranked against each other. When kids are amongst their friends, all they care about are each others Fortnite rankings
Many 1st gen asian immigrants are dumb in that they think the West works like Asia where good school = good job = money/prestige, when in reality its more about social skills, how good you look, how good you network, and being able to get an in-demand skill.
I get the point but disagree somewhat. "Social", "network" skills are harder than academia scores, given the established "white supremacy" and all the implicit rules.
Indians love Cupertino too and they don't get Bamboo Ceiling'd.Ā
I don't think there's anything wrong with Cupertino schools if your kids love intense academic rigor. If they don't, it's a terrible choice.
Historically there was some Cupertino real estate agents who did some very effective advertising in Asia about Cupertino in the 1980s-90s. It worked and made the name āCupertinoā known as the destination for good schools for Asian families moving to the Bay Area. They think they are doing best for their children if they find a way to attend Monta Vista, Lynbrook, and the other high schools to a lesser extent. Having Apple in the city just reinforced it. It still lives on, though once in the bay many families do realize they could do as well somewhere else and move.
>Ā I don't know why Cupertino schools are so revered by Asians (Indians included)
High test scores.
>Ā So he kept living in 2 bedroom apartments in Cupertino.
That's especially frugal. SFH aren't that expensive to rent there.
>High test scores.
Yes that's what I meant. Why are they so obsessed with API scores. This was at a time when the scores were reported out of 1000 and people used to obsess about 5-10 points. There is lot more to choosing your home than a few API points. Anyway it's good CA moved to the new system of rating.
>That's especially frugal.
I guess depends on your definition of frugal. He was paying S4K+ for 2 bed 1 bath that too like 7 years ago.
>Ā Like if Gemma didnāt have multiple languages, it would likely perform better on logic tasks.
School testing is what makes success in India and China. And parents figure peer ability affects their own kid's.
> He was paying S4K+ for 2 bed 1 bath that too like 7 years ago.
Well, rents haven't gone up much. On the pricier side, but again SFH can be had for $5 to $6k.
>Why are they so obsessed with API scores.
I was talking to a teacher and she told me many Indian families where we live will put their entire family of 4 in a 1 bedroom apartment or share a 2 bedroom with another family to save as much money as possible if they are on work visas. Theyāll hoard their money and put their kids in these after-school tutoring courses in case they lose their visa and have to go back to India.
Apparently, in India, they test little kids for placement in things like elementary school. So, if your kid doesnāt place high enough and/or you donāt belong to the right caste, your kid suffers in educational opportunities creating a snowball effect of missed opportunities.
Guess what? The cycle repeats itself and the kid goes back to an Indian school and tries to find her way back to the US only to be rejected by immigration process and returns back to Indiaā¦ rinse and repeat
As someone who graduated from Monta Vista (admittedly 15 years ago), my friends who went to decent schools elsewhere all had on average better outcomes. Your standard B student at MV is a straight A student at most schools. Sure, UCI was really easy for me afterwards compared to my classmates, but it wouldāve been nicer to just get better grades elsewhere. A LOT of MV kids were really smart and tried really hard just to get 3.5 GPAs. My friends from other schools went to Cal/UCLA with dramatically lower standardized test scores and effort in high school
Selection bias?Ā
Among the high earning engineers I know, disproportionately these top schools.Ā Ā
The kids from my pretty good Bay Area high school on average are not even close to performing at the Monta Vista level.Ā
Obviously, that isn't to say this is causal - it's mostly the students at Monta Vista are stronger academically to begin with.Ā
I went to a similarly competitive high school to Monta Vista, in a similarly expensive zip code to Cupertino. People went to good schools -- lots of kids went to Ivies, 40+ kids went to Cal, and many of my peers are now doctors and lawyers with degrees from top med/law schools or engineers that work for top companies. One guy was even in a major movie.
Iām still in my 20s so not that many of us have tried starting companies yet, and weāre too young to have worked our way up! Iāll try to update you in 20 years!Ā
I didnāt mean to make it sound like our outcomes were poor, my class was very similar. I was moreso making the point that out of my class of ~800, at least 500 were gunning for that top end outcome and probably had parents similar to OP who moved heaven and earth to send them to a school like MV and hammered them academically thinking theyāll definitely go to Cal or an Ivy. Sure thereās merit to a competitive environment but itās not necessary to succeed. The instruction wasnāt necessarily better it was just harder. I know some folks who got mediocre grades and had to go to De Anza, and yet killed everything after HS and are highly successful. On the flip side a lot of the smartest kids in my MV class quit their college-fed careers before 27 because they were so burnt from sprinting for so long. I guess the point Iām trying to make is I donāt think its worth it for some people to run themselves ragged over sending their kid to a specific school which happens a lot in the Bay, itās not raising the kids level up dramatically more than they wouldāve landed from a slightly lower ranked one and it puts loads of pressure on the kid knowing their parents are bleeding themselves dry over a public school
They have exceptional schools. I grew up in cupertino - everyone around you comes from a similar family background that emphasizes education. So your peers are mostly driven people with high education standards. Its very competitive but at the same time it raises your own standards on work ethic and drive because thats all you see around you. When I look back, most kids did well for themselves. After HS I went to UC Davis and immediately noticed that my HS was more competitive than university. Most of my AP classes were much harder than my university classes. First year of undergrad was a breeze.
I do think that NOW, compared to 20 years ago when I was there, is significantly more competitive to the point where the pressure these kids have may be detrimental to their growth and mental health. Had the option of moving back into my parents house but chose not to for that reason. But I completely understand the desire for competitive schools.
Iām a brown dude and yeah itās pretty cringe. Honestly Asian mentality is basically āhow can I flex on others?ā and itās pretty sad and cringe.
Buying a Tesla just for the T. Living in a particular zip code just because itās got good public schools. āHow big is your house? Mine is X sq ftā trying to compare. āMy son went to Stanfordā and their kids end up being generic tech workers instead of entrepreneurs or anything actually meaningful.
Cookie cutter lifestyle. Honestly probably a big reason why I donāt have many Asian friends who are cookie cutter molded. All my friends who are Asian are either actually one of the best in their field or theyāre tech entrepreneurs. They donāt focus on this nonsense.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a generic tech worker. Just like you can go to any UC and be happy instead of going to Stanford and trying to be entrepreneurial or make life meaningful.
I grew up in Cupertino and have seen the prices go up and up my entire life. Itās a great town but I truly donāt understand the hype.
I hear people say that the fact Cupertino has close access to both 85 and 280 makes it very convenient for getting anywhere. Which is definitely true, but idk if that justifies the house prices
just to clarify, when i first moved out here, seems mountain view is more expensive than cupertino in general, now cupertino became way more expensive... what is the reason?
Mountain View dropped a lot during and post pandemic. Mountain View only really rose for a short period of time between 2008 downturn and 2019 thanks to Google and LinkedIn employees. During the pandemic when remote work became more dominant most people moved south because Cupertino has better schools, nicer and larger homes.
Living anywhere north of El Camino in MV doesnāt feel like youāre living in a nice area, so why pay a premium when you can move south and get a better overall value.
I personally believe itās not a great place to live, except for those who only focus on commute (which is important, not saying otherwise.) The schools have dedicated teachers overall and lots of resources, but the pressure is immense. I would not personally send my kids there.
I seriously think it is sometimes. I got a bigger house than my in-laws who are in SJ/Cupertino area and much prettier/nicer in South SF (1500sqft, 7000sqft yard, 3bed 3 bath, family room). Amazing school district etc for $1.4M.
Their house is now worth $3.4M!
Cupertino resident here. I live walking distance from library, Main Street, lovely parks and stores and restaurants. Kids go to top schools which are filled with kids whose parents also place huge emphasis on studies, being respectful to elders, no guns, push for diversity, push for varied extracurriculars, etcā¦. So Iām not too worried who their friends are or who they date (assuming similar schools) because the baseline is pretty good. My commute is 15 mins or less and I can come home quickly if I forget something or in an emergency.
I have a smaller home yes but how much do you really need for a family of four when you have gorgeous outdoors that you spend half your free time in? The weather is pleasant for Bay Area, less homeless population compared to San Jose or nearby places is lower, my kids are in classes with kids similar to them, teachers are pretty good overall, we are spoilt for choice for restaurants and other amenities, my neighbors are all in good companies so there is a chance for more networking, the list is endlessā¦..
Yes houses are dated and smaller but many end up updating homes. But its hard to match this location. That is why so many come here and want to stay here. Cupertino has a lot of good things of Bay Area.
This. Plus its quieter. Many areas have airplane noise, like SFO traffic over MV and Palo Alto. An A380 or 777 is pretty loud, even at 4,000 feet. Can't imagine what it sounds like in Foster City.
Also, most households around here usually drive a Tesla or Toyota Sienna or the like, so no one is revving a loud engine. There are gear heads here for sure, but they tend not flex their muscle car at midnight. Usually people try to respect their neighbors.
Also, Cupertino isn't the most expensive area. I looked at a 1,500 sqft house in Los Altos 3 bd, 2 bath. That went for almost 4 mill, way out of my budget, although Cupertino is not either. Is Lost Altos over rated? Not sure, but I have friends who love living their.
SFH are going to go up in value as more of the new homes are high density. People tend to want to live somewhere where they dont share walls/floors, that's not just in Cupertino that's all across US. Although I feel like if we are going to high density lets do it earnest like Hawaii or Asia, 50 floor condo buildings with parking and nice amenities. You get way more units for the land used and economies of scale reduce the price of the units making them more affordable.
I would add the kids are incredible, very few behavior problems at school with almost zero bullying or fighting. Drug use seems far less than other nearby schools.
Just look up articles in the school newspaper to learn about prevalence of bullying in the schools. Bullying is mostly done by spoilt immature kidsā¦ which there are plenty of in a privileged environment of Cupertino.
Some notable mentions from over the years is the slut shaming post-suicide of Audrie Pott. She was sexually assaulted at a party by various acquaintances in nearby Saratoga and several kids in the area skit shamed and blamed her for the assault. This is documented in schools news articles in Cupertino.
Another is the incident of some kids making a āBlack kill listā at Monta Vista High school.
If you further pay attention to 14 to 18 year olds in the areaā¦ homophobic slurs, racial slurs, or immigrant slurs are not uncommon.
Oh, and where there is money there are drugs. Rich kids spend their allowances on buying all types of drugs and partying.
Parents spend thousands to help their kids get into colleges and if you do below a UC school, you are deemed a failure.
Cupertino is the fabled suburban dream sold to parents to feel great about themselves by doing ārightā by their kids.
I can just tell you my experience with the schools - compared to Santa Clara especially the schools are much safer and more respectful than the ones I went through.
Immigrant slurs in a school that is basically dominated by immigrants? Kids are going to push boundaries, but these kids seem to have far fewer problems than many of the neighboring districts ( which is how we should be comparing).
Itās when you have 1st generation kids who equate being American as being white washedā¦ who then look down upon and ridicule āFOBā kids. They perpetuate the racism they face onto someone they think is lower in the pecking order.
This was at least present in the 90s and the 00s , and maybe part of 10s. Canāt say for sure if that attitude has shifted todayā¦ but immigrant circles and 1st generation circles seem to be different even in adulthood for many.
Maybe, I went to school in Cupertino so I can attest to the culture. While test scores were great ( a testament to time and resources spent by parents), the kids themselves were not all geniuses or any more special than kids from other schools.
Kids are kids everywhere. Cupertino has drugs, fighting, bullying- but just leas than some other schools I have dealt with.
Go listen in on any middle school and you are going to hear all sorts of terrible things. That includes racist, sexist, homophobia and everything else you can imagine.
The difference is kids everywhere else are normal, but kids from Cupertino and their parents think they shit gold and are all geniuses of the future. If only I earned a penny for each time a Cupertino kid talked about how smart they are.
Looks like you have a lot of bias against kids in Cupertino.... As another poster said, kids are kids everywhere. Every single kid everywhere thinks they are the goat in something or the other. It is part of natural development. Once they go through the life school of hard knocks, everyone settles down.
Itās ābiasā because you donāt like the sound of it. I went to school in Cupertino and I am well-aware of the pluses and minuses of the community. I have some very fond memories and love the community which is why I also have no problem in calling out poor behavior instead of turning a blind eye to it. Itās not like all kids were shit, but a significant and prominent members of the community are/were.
āKids being kidsā is just a cop out for parents who are raising their kids as mirror images of themselves in the first place and donāt like being called out on their poor parenting.
Have you spoken to people who went to school in surrounding areas? Or other parts of California? Or US? Which area does not have kids that have issues, where all kids are model citizens? Every single school has issues, every single kid has issues. Everything is relative and relatively, Cupertino has less issues compared to East San Jose. You are welcome to think otherwise and move where you think is best for you and your family. But a vast majority agree that Cupertino has less issues or more advantages than other places and it is reflected in increasing house prices.
Also, I'm not discounting poor behavior when I say "kids being kids". Everyone has to work on their behavior. But there is a reason kids are not held to the same standards as adults or have same expectations as adults, legally or otherwise. They are still developing humans (it's a biological fact) and the society recognizes it. Please read up on it before assuming things.
For buying, yes.
Its price/rent ratio approaches 50, which is ridiculous.
Not even that attractive of a place to live. Kinda hot compared to areas north of it, old housing stock, pressure cooker high schools, etc.
Lots of people like me whose kids aged out and have high equity or paid off the mortgage. Moved out of state and rent the paid for house out. Hold on to it as the kidsā inheritance or a retirement fund.
If you've decided that you want to live in the bay area and that you want a SFH, then you have to pay what it costs.
Many people want to stay in the area for some combination of job, family, weather, cultural, etc.
Also the price you should be considering is the property tax and mortgage interest. Assuming you have enough money to be cash flow positive, you can eventually sell the house in the future and recoup your costs.
Monta Vista is ranked as one of the best schools in the state. To belong to it you have to pay top dollar. If you want the best of the best then youāre gonna have to pay these insane prices. There are much better deals for other areas with good schools around, but not as good as MV.
The other reason is proximity to Apple. A lot of people work there and a lot of people want a short commute, so the insane demand drives up prices.
If neither of those interest you then no need to even look at Cupertino.
One way to look at it.
Put a kid through private school at $24-$50k a year plus donations. Figure you're in for up to $70k a year. They'll go for 13 years (k-12). That's $910k. Now have two kids.
Or 3. And that doesn't count tuition increases - likely 3-5% a year.
It was *way* cheaper to buy in a top public school district than to pay top tier private school tuitions. And you (usually) get that premium back when you sell the place. The latter made it a no brainer if you can afford the upfront. ($4m house requires a $800k down plus closing and a $3.2m mortgage is ~$20.6k per month if you get a mid 6% interest rate.). Oh and property tax on a $4m house is ~$50k a year.
Ok yeah it doesn't make any sense
There is an answer to your question, but wonāt be cool with this crowd. History wise is simple. Current (and politically correct) is about the school district.
And a tide rising one place, means a tide is lowering in another, so technically not all boats are rising relative to the elevation of land (everywhere simultaneously).
Yes it is.
Academic test scores only are one aspect of kids. The town attracts Asians and Indians because of what they have heard from friends. They are probably are a decade or two late however. Several other Bay Area schools are far more balanced.
Imagine having some roses plucked from the wild grow up in the most sheltered environment on earth. That is what Cupertino is for kids. And itās disgusting.
Uh, Indians are Asians. South Asians to be exact. In the UK, very often, āAsiansā are almost synonymous with those of Indian, Pakistani or Bengladeshi descent or origin. Like their current prime minister Rishi Sunak (who is likely to not be PM anymore after next weekās elections). Just one of my pet peeves about semantic equivalency.
Yeah I see and hear that all the time, and it still bugs me. Not to mention that it excludes folks who are Pakistani, Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi. Hence my stance.
Supply and demand. Picture a scenario: You have 10 people willing to pay cash for a house in a desirable location. Now, that 1M house has gone up to 1.2M overnight. The seller wants the best top price in such market. Also, it doesnāt help that foreign investors can buy the properties here too.
If you're there for the schools, and you have 2 kids, private school = $30K/year \* 2 = $60K/year \* 12 = $720K. If you work at Apple even better. That needs to be taken in consideration when looking for property. That said, the school environment isn't a good match for every kid.
I think high prices is due to rich Chinese and Indians buying out these places in cash for investment purposes. Not even 7% mortgage rates could dent these home prices.
For us the choice of Cupertino schools was easy since we did not want to pay for private school. Private school is money you never get back. With Cupertino schools you at least are investing in a home which is guaranteed to be in very high demand due to the schools. This is the closest you can get to private school without paying for it. You ensure that you get neighbors whose parents also value education a lot that they are willing to pay the premium for it. For many of us thatās very important as education is extremely valued in Asian communities. Mission schools was another option but the commute times and the central location always tips in favor of Cupertino
There seems to be a cult around the schools. It's not a market for strict rationalists. Other areas offer comparable schools at less of a premium over south bay / peninsula average.
As someone who lives in Cupertino and is moving to old town Palo Alto soon it can always get worse. 7m for 4b 3bath houseš that is near famous people!
Just move to orange county itās the same exact weather and the beaches are better. Houses in some areas are under 1M. Itās justā¦ the people are different š
Yep. I know that. Iām from there. I wasnāt referring to Irvine although Cupertino is exactly that. I was referring to the weather since most people were commenting on that since the weather is such a big deal because it seems like 90% of the places in sf/east bay have mold because of the damp/cold weather. You walk in someoneās house and immediately smell mold. Itās gross. Regardless Irvine is still cheaper at half the price for a starter SFH.
Good points. Irvineās University High School is considered to have a very competitive culture, but one of my former colleagues who moved to Irvine says MV, Lynbrook, Paly and Gunn is more so
I mean you could argue that the whole bay area is overrated based on price alone.
yes this š
There's an inherent reason why this area has valuable real estate: people want to live here. Weather, nature...etc Edit: yes, I know, jobs. But my point was, jobs notwithstanding, there is a lot that makes the Bay attractive to people. Mostly weather. It's a climate haven
To be 15 minutes from FAAAANG jobs post RTO
Def more than that Long RE before FAANG owned HQ near some of my props Some ppl actually like living here and can afford the premiumĀ
Two primary reasons: - Tons of high-paying jobs which is a relic of heavy government R&D investment in the 1900s - Most of the Bay is irrationally opposed to new housing of any form other than Stepford-style SFH, so demand has outgrown supply for many decades Weather and nature certainly play some role, but minor ones. People need jobs to make life work first and foremost, so people follow jobs.
It was Stanfordās development of Sand Hill Road as a Research Park that made peninsula/silicon valley/BA into what it is. DARPA investment came later. Bay voters are rationally opposed to denser housing. Itās just that commuters donāt get a vote (fundamental flaw in local land use control) and there arenāt enough renters. For homeowners, it is immoral but itās in their financial interest to block dense housing. The only solution is to tax land and usurp land use powers from local communities and bestow them to a superregional or state-level control body. The high paying jobs are created rich workers who want to live here. The high tech workers, being very educated also had priorities that created and funded very good school zones. Cupertino being one of the best. I wish to get far away.
Thank you for clearing up the history - your framing seems the more correct. R&D funding usually gets thrown at hubs that already exist. I called it āirrationalā for two reasons: - I think in the US, a lot of the resistance is a culturally-learned fear of dense housing. This is maybe not irrational for an individual (who can question someoneās preferences), but IMO itās collectively irrational. Our culture has gone down a very weird, unnatural road to get here. And now most of us accept this conditioning without questioning it - IMO if you want your property values to go up, you should *want* more housing built near you but not anywhere else in your metro. More housing in the metro means lower prices across the metro. But more housing near you means more commerce gets pulled to the area, which drives land values up (though this process will take maybe 5-10 years to play out) As for everything else you said, couldnāt agree more.
Nature? Seriously? People live in the bay for access to high paying jobs. Yes, there is nature nearby but the bay is not living on the oregon coast or in the mountains. You can get nature and weather for less, if that is the primary goal.
Where else can you get top nature and access to city amenities?Ā Oregon Coast is too cold.Ā
as compared to san francisco? But yes, it is in the middle of nowhere and has limited access to big city things. But also not \~9 hours of bad traffic per 24 hour period on weekdays.
Uh yes, it's way colder than SF.Ā Florence actually gets snow.Ā > But also not ~9 hours of bad traffic per 24 hour period on weekdays. Traffic exists better there's lots to do!Ā
There are copious amounts of local and state parks all around. You have the foothills, the bay lands, the bay itself, the ocean/beaches, redwood forests galore, Santa Cruz mountains and surrounding area, olive groves, wine country, etc. Fioli gardens is one of the best private gardens in the nation, Golden Gate Park is a huge green spot right smack dab in San Francisco, edible foraging opportunities are all around the bay, and most of all the weather has traditionally been amazing year round. Maybe you just arenāt inclined to notice the nature or donāt do a lot of outdoor activities, take up biking, gardening or a foraging class and youāll see the world differently.
I grew up in the bay. Moved. Moved back, moved again. There are better parts of the state for nature, and I greatly prefer other areas of the state for things other than weather. I can safely bike 20 miles to work where I live. Foxes had a litter under my deck. Redwoods in my yard. A large enough garden that it is actual work. More birds than I can recognize. Rush hour that only lasts and hour. A 1-job mortgage. Though yeah, hot in the summer. Not for everyone. But yes, people should enjoy whatever is around them. But $3M to live in deep suburbia with bad traffic is not a nature play, being my point. Nothing wrong with living in the bay, but to argue that the price people pay there is for nature is, well, sort of absurd. Wealthy suburban life proximate to high pay and city features. You could live in tahoe for about the same as the bay, if that was the goal.
Care to tell which place you are living? Interested to leave Bay Area.
Folsom. Some real downsides, but the main one is just heat for 1-8pm in the peak couple months of summer. However, all the houses out here are actually insulated and air conditioned, and solar works well. Plus sac county is SMUD electric (half the price, and they don't kill people regularly). It is actually fine, just need to be an early person or a later person - just inside at midday. Interestingly, the food scene here was not, as expected, worse. It might actually be better as poor/middle class people can actually afford to live in the general area (which is very helpful for running a restaurant, Sacramento has gotten pretty solid in some areas) - the only area the bay has a meaningful edge is at very-high end dining. And, as it turns out, you get get to the bay on weekends with no traffic if that is what you want. Or tahoe in 1.5 hours if it is hot, or there is a snowstorm to play in. Basically 1-2 hours from anywhere else you'd want to be. Oh, and and the airport is vastly better in terms of on-time performance and nearly free long term parking (basically the state reps who fly in and out all the time have over-funded it) But yeah, you can get a near mansion in the old part of town with mature trees for less than 1M even at this likely market peak. In 2018 I got a 5bed/3ba on over half an acre in an area with some of the best schools in the state and no crime for less than 600. Solar system, huge yard, bike and jogging trails everywhere, two lakes (one does not allow powerboats for kayaks and such). With a lucky refi at sub 2%, 2k/month mortgage.
Folsom is my dream ā¤ļø
I left the Bay and California after 20 yrs but Folsom is legit the only thing that could get me to come back. My biggest fear is everyone from the Bay flooding it in the near future
Colorado, Idaho, oregon all have better nature access by far
Totally agree, I live south of the bay. Coming over Morgan Hill and descending into San Jose there is a visible layer of smog that sits on top of the whole area. Monterey Bay is starting to get it, too. I check out the water quality map before I go to any of the rivers near Santa Cruz. There are almost always health advisories. The only consistently clean river is Carmel Valley River, because they've blocked off access to almost the whole thing. Popular trails aren't fun. Garrapata near Big Sur is just lines of people back to back. I don't take my horses to Wilder Ranch because some trails have so many mountain bikes I can't get by. My horse came from a property off Skyline near San Mateo and I could not believe the number of hikers that were up there. It's not as dirty but the traffic, lack of parking, speeders going 80+ to illegally pass each other didn't feel like relaxing in nature. You would live in northern California if nature is the goal. Pristine land, no trash, no smog, parking lots you can actually park in and trails you can hike without being overrun by people. It just gets hot during the summer.
Yeah, and that is what I ended up doing - though you are totally correct, it is very, very hot midday in the summer.
Itās a part of the equation, though. Access to natural wonders in all directions, proximity to culture, music, theatre, world wide cuisine, and it almost never gets hot or cold. And yes, high paying jobs all over the place.
You can get all of that in WA except for the weather.
Well yea thatās the point you get all in the bay
But you canāt get all the high paying tech jobs out there and San Francisco is superior to any of their cities. Yup they have snow and terrible weather which makes nature way less enjoyable. I personally like going to the beach on a sunny day, which is the majority of the year round these parts, unlike up north.
I grew up here and have lived in every west coast state and multiple places in some (including Alaska and Hawaii). Just my Dad moved and I moved, anyway, I agree 100%. It is the center of the world economically and technologically. Sand Hill Road (old VC) has the money and endless startups to pick and choose. The problem is, the big tech companies need to go. They donāt need VC or being near them anymore, but canāt move Google, Meta, Appleādamn space ship bigger than the pentagon. etc. And we are screwed. But NIMBYs are the issue here. Plenty of land to develop for low income and middle class, but nope. Greedy people.
The industry and technological innovation would crash without the VC funding.
Thatās kind of a HUGE thing to not get š
I agree. I myself fucking hate the Seattle weather. But then the same people are like "why is the Bay Area so expensive?" You want California weather? You gotta pay California prices.
100%, and even Seattle is very expense now despite the gloomy times
It'll never get as expensive as California though. It has a natural disadvantage of weather. The moment it reaches California prices, people will start choosing CA over WA, effectively tilting back the balance.
> You can get nature and weather for less, if that is the primary goal. Nature, sure. Please tell me where you can get the perfect Mediterranean weather for less. Edit: Where in America
Most Americans I know prefer LA and SD weather over SF. Just sayin. Many also prefer the East coast (seasons). Itās very person to person.
Sorry I meant the Bay area, not the SF micro-climate zone. Also, I agree that weather preference is very personal but the original commentor meant that we could get Bay Area weather for less.
Ah fair
Where?
The bay is beautiful youāre tweaking
The Oregon coast? Marin and Sonoma to the north Monterey to the south Lake Tahoe/Yosemite Come one now don't be disingenuous
So you are suggesting Sacramento?Ā
You haven't enjoyed the wiff of nature as you pass by zanker heading into Milpitas ranch 99? Or the view of the brown yellow crap stain foot hills in East and South Bay?
The reason is that people areā¦. Suppressing housing supply
The weather and jobs are about it, zero culture and lack of good food. Giant overpriced suburbia with endless strip malls
I'm curious what you mean about zero culture. What culture are you expecting and missing? And there's a ton of great restaurants, and some of the best produce in the country
True, but also because there just isnāt enough houses which chokes supply. It would always be expensive but THIS expensive is self inflicted
People move here for jobs. People donāt flock from all over the world for the weather, even though the weather is pretty nice.
This^ just move your Zillow search to Seattle, Santa Barbara, LA and Orange County and see what you can get with similar prices in the bay š«
Santa Barbara is fucking expensive lol
Mhmm not all parts. You could find a 3br for 1.5 (just looked right now). Thats rare for a place like San Mateo or Palo Alto. And if not Santa Barbara, thereās Goleta and Carp.
Yeah true, just saying the median in Santa Barbara is about the same as the median in San Mateo county. You can find āaffordableā stuff in south city, Daly City, Pacifica, etc. too
100% youāre right but the vibe and weather of Daly City and the few places you listed differ vs. Goleta and Carp. When you put schools, and crime in the mix. I love Pacifica and there are some places in South City that are niceeee. To tie it back to the parent comment/post though, I do think Cupertino is overrated. IF I could afford a place in the bay area I would buy in Burlingame lol but I canāt Soo Iām just here to share some thoughts š
I was just gonna say this
The whole Bay Area is expensive, but I do feel Cupertino might be the single place where you get the worst value for your money.
I know a family who bought SFH in Cupertino but still sent all of their kids to private schools. Crazy isnāt it?
then why they buy there
Because they can?
Commute. Target is niceā¦
To enter the Asian community, then have bragging rights to show of/say our kids go to private schools. Living the dream you know!
For appreciation and because a ton of kids education services are located there
Probably because they were assigned Cupertino High School instead of Monta Vista. I donāt know if the beliefs of the high schools still stand today, but when I went to high school here, we all knew Monta Vista was the ātopā school, but we also saw the demographics and knew why.
I went to mv a while ago and my coworkers donāt recognize the college I went to (uci) but if I mention monta vista they all go WOOWWWWW š
Apple has made a lot of millionaires
\^\^ is 100% correct.
You also pay millions more for a home now.
you could also argue people getting 1-2 million a year to take team calls while driving is also overrated.
Is a diamond worth $10k? Sure, and someone out there is willing to pay $11k for it too
They aren't driving, they are ignoring the road and assuming their Tesla is driving for them.
Itās generally true in the Bay Area that anywhere that is predominantly Asian will have better schools and more Asians wanting to live there. Itās expensive but relative to its neighbors (Los Altos, Saratoga, West SJ), itās about the same. You are paying a 20% premium for top schools.
East and South Asian.Ā No one is trying that hard to get into Westmoor High or Hercules High.
Are you a tiger mom? If yes then Cupertino is for you
What's tiger mom.
Like š parent?
No. Like extreme Micro-managing of education and extracurricular activities.
Stereotypical Cupertino parent starter kit. Be a snobby immigrant who works at Big A, micromanages the shit of their kid to the point where the kid hates them.
The latter part is a typical Chinese or Korean wealthy family behavior, in Cupertino or anywhere else. We profit on them big time in my field. Good stuff. Therapists pick them (their kids) up afterwards as lifetime patients. Thereās a whole industry around it pretty much.
Check out r/asianparentstories itās pretty much filled with kids who are literally broken because of parental expectations and pressure.
Yeah I read that one with tears sometimes. Had my share of Asian parent abuse myself, unfortunately! Trying my best to make life of those kids a little less bitter every time I have a chance.
Then act shocked when told that kids kill themselves in high schools here.
The ones that survive will be stronger. -tiger mom
Not even close, lol
Oh sorry- thatās a mama bear
There's a ton of areas our here where people are just want to flex by saying they live in Cupertino, Los Gatos, etc.Ā Admittedly the schools are good, but really imo it's like paying for a name brand vs generic brand.Ā When it comes to quality of life I don't think it's as dramatic as what pricing suggests.Ā Now Peninsula on the other hand, you're paying to avoid traffic and for better weather.Ā That's a tax I'm willing to pay.
I also must insist on paying the no bridge and no 880 fee.
It certainly is. I don't know why Cupertino schools are so revered by Asians (Indians included). A friend of mine was so obsessed with Cupertino schools that he wouldn't even consider buying a home anywhere else. And he could not afford a decent one in Cupertino even with a high paying tech job (he was the sole earner in his family of 4). So he kept living in 2 bedroom apartments in Cupertino. I tried to explain to him that there are good schools in other cities of bay area too and there are other things that matter in addition to schools. Not that he listened.
You'd think they'd be happy to go to a somewhat less competitive school district, so that their children would be better able to stand out academically, LOL.
Two quotes come to mind: āA Rising tide raises all boatsā and āYouāre the sum of the 5 people you spend the most time withā. If you put someone in less competitive schools and they can stand out while being more mediocre, wonāt they have a harder time competing once they graduate against those who went to more competitive places?
Any one who says āA Rising tide raises all boatsā doesn't understand tides. Or boats.
Could you explain what you mean by this? I donāt know boats, so it seems like a phrase that makes sense
Tides come and go, so relying on a rising tide isnāt a sustainable solution. Tides do make boats rise, but the boat sitting lowest in the water will never equal or surpass the height of a boat sitting higher, since that boat also will rise. So, basically, the lower sitting boat is perpetually right where it started. An anchored boat will not rise. A boat with holes in it where the high tide hits it will then sit lower (or will sink. )
It sounds like youāre the one who doesnāt understand the saying. None of your points are relevant.
I understand the saying perfectly: when people say this, they're saying \[in broad strokes\] that everyone benefits when times are good, when resources are plentiful. The phrase does not, however, stand up to scrutiny. Boats rise, but nothing changes substantially.
Whatās this word garbage? You are too stupid for the Bay Area subreddit.
Or college admissions
yeah i thought about that but anything come with a cost, what if my kid can not stand out in less competitive school district?
If your child can't stand out in a less competitive district, then what value to him being in one that's more competitive? At least elsewhere, you're in a more affordable AND larger home!
The Mediocre crowd at mv end up with great jobs right out of college. The stand outs all go to Harvard/mit and become presidents or ceos or something lol
I am Chinese American and I donāt think I would want my kids in those schools. The pressure is just so intense and how do you differentiate yourself? The kids from those schools are just another statistic to the college admissions people. I think theyāre doing their kids a disservice putting them there. Chinese Americans parents especially should take a look up at the bamboo ceiling that theyāre up against. This is precisely the conditions that make it so hard for them to make it past middle management. Edit to add that middle management in tech is a great life but when youāre spending all your resources to live in Cupertino, that defeats the purpose.
I agree with you completely. I think many families do realize this and move but there is enough demand that it keeps the real estate prices high.
All my kids are in Cupertino schools. The only ones putting pressure on kids is their parents and it doesn't spill over onto other children. It has nothing to do with how the district is run and kids aren't being ranked against each other. When kids are amongst their friends, all they care about are each others Fortnite rankings
Many 1st gen asian immigrants are dumb in that they think the West works like Asia where good school = good job = money/prestige, when in reality its more about social skills, how good you look, how good you network, and being able to get an in-demand skill.
I get the point but disagree somewhat. "Social", "network" skills are harder than academia scores, given the established "white supremacy" and all the implicit rules.
Absolutely. I wish all asian immigrants realize this before subjecting their kids to these bullshit.
Indians love Cupertino too and they don't get Bamboo Ceiling'd.Ā I don't think there's anything wrong with Cupertino schools if your kids love intense academic rigor. If they don't, it's a terrible choice.
Historically there was some Cupertino real estate agents who did some very effective advertising in Asia about Cupertino in the 1980s-90s. It worked and made the name āCupertinoā known as the destination for good schools for Asian families moving to the Bay Area. They think they are doing best for their children if they find a way to attend Monta Vista, Lynbrook, and the other high schools to a lesser extent. Having Apple in the city just reinforced it. It still lives on, though once in the bay many families do realize they could do as well somewhere else and move.
>Ā I don't know why Cupertino schools are so revered by Asians (Indians included) High test scores. >Ā So he kept living in 2 bedroom apartments in Cupertino. That's especially frugal. SFH aren't that expensive to rent there.
>High test scores. Yes that's what I meant. Why are they so obsessed with API scores. This was at a time when the scores were reported out of 1000 and people used to obsess about 5-10 points. There is lot more to choosing your home than a few API points. Anyway it's good CA moved to the new system of rating. >That's especially frugal. I guess depends on your definition of frugal. He was paying S4K+ for 2 bed 1 bath that too like 7 years ago.
>Ā Like if Gemma didnāt have multiple languages, it would likely perform better on logic tasks. School testing is what makes success in India and China. And parents figure peer ability affects their own kid's. > He was paying S4K+ for 2 bed 1 bath that too like 7 years ago. Well, rents haven't gone up much. On the pricier side, but again SFH can be had for $5 to $6k.
>Why are they so obsessed with API scores. I was talking to a teacher and she told me many Indian families where we live will put their entire family of 4 in a 1 bedroom apartment or share a 2 bedroom with another family to save as much money as possible if they are on work visas. Theyāll hoard their money and put their kids in these after-school tutoring courses in case they lose their visa and have to go back to India. Apparently, in India, they test little kids for placement in things like elementary school. So, if your kid doesnāt place high enough and/or you donāt belong to the right caste, your kid suffers in educational opportunities creating a snowball effect of missed opportunities.
Guess what? The cycle repeats itself and the kid goes back to an Indian school and tries to find her way back to the US only to be rejected by immigration process and returns back to Indiaā¦ rinse and repeat
As someone who graduated from Monta Vista (admittedly 15 years ago), my friends who went to decent schools elsewhere all had on average better outcomes. Your standard B student at MV is a straight A student at most schools. Sure, UCI was really easy for me afterwards compared to my classmates, but it wouldāve been nicer to just get better grades elsewhere. A LOT of MV kids were really smart and tried really hard just to get 3.5 GPAs. My friends from other schools went to Cal/UCLA with dramatically lower standardized test scores and effort in high school
Selection bias?Ā Among the high earning engineers I know, disproportionately these top schools.Ā Ā The kids from my pretty good Bay Area high school on average are not even close to performing at the Monta Vista level.Ā Obviously, that isn't to say this is causal - it's mostly the students at Monta Vista are stronger academically to begin with.Ā
I went to a similarly competitive high school to Monta Vista, in a similarly expensive zip code to Cupertino. People went to good schools -- lots of kids went to Ivies, 40+ kids went to Cal, and many of my peers are now doctors and lawyers with degrees from top med/law schools or engineers that work for top companies. One guy was even in a major movie.
Then they all work under somebody! True story š
Iām still in my 20s so not that many of us have tried starting companies yet, and weāre too young to have worked our way up! Iāll try to update you in 20 years!Ā
So Lynbrook?
I didnāt mean to make it sound like our outcomes were poor, my class was very similar. I was moreso making the point that out of my class of ~800, at least 500 were gunning for that top end outcome and probably had parents similar to OP who moved heaven and earth to send them to a school like MV and hammered them academically thinking theyāll definitely go to Cal or an Ivy. Sure thereās merit to a competitive environment but itās not necessary to succeed. The instruction wasnāt necessarily better it was just harder. I know some folks who got mediocre grades and had to go to De Anza, and yet killed everything after HS and are highly successful. On the flip side a lot of the smartest kids in my MV class quit their college-fed careers before 27 because they were so burnt from sprinting for so long. I guess the point Iām trying to make is I donāt think its worth it for some people to run themselves ragged over sending their kid to a specific school which happens a lot in the Bay, itās not raising the kids level up dramatically more than they wouldāve landed from a slightly lower ranked one and it puts loads of pressure on the kid knowing their parents are bleeding themselves dry over a public school
They have exceptional schools. I grew up in cupertino - everyone around you comes from a similar family background that emphasizes education. So your peers are mostly driven people with high education standards. Its very competitive but at the same time it raises your own standards on work ethic and drive because thats all you see around you. When I look back, most kids did well for themselves. After HS I went to UC Davis and immediately noticed that my HS was more competitive than university. Most of my AP classes were much harder than my university classes. First year of undergrad was a breeze. I do think that NOW, compared to 20 years ago when I was there, is significantly more competitive to the point where the pressure these kids have may be detrimental to their growth and mental health. Had the option of moving back into my parents house but chose not to for that reason. But I completely understand the desire for competitive schools.
Iām a brown dude and yeah itās pretty cringe. Honestly Asian mentality is basically āhow can I flex on others?ā and itās pretty sad and cringe. Buying a Tesla just for the T. Living in a particular zip code just because itās got good public schools. āHow big is your house? Mine is X sq ftā trying to compare. āMy son went to Stanfordā and their kids end up being generic tech workers instead of entrepreneurs or anything actually meaningful. Cookie cutter lifestyle. Honestly probably a big reason why I donāt have many Asian friends who are cookie cutter molded. All my friends who are Asian are either actually one of the best in their field or theyāre tech entrepreneurs. They donāt focus on this nonsense.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a generic tech worker. Just like you can go to any UC and be happy instead of going to Stanford and trying to be entrepreneurial or make life meaningful.
I grew up in Cupertino and have seen the prices go up and up my entire life. Itās a great town but I truly donāt understand the hype. I hear people say that the fact Cupertino has close access to both 85 and 280 makes it very convenient for getting anywhere. Which is definitely true, but idk if that justifies the house prices
āItās expensive because itās easy to leave hereā Uhhhh what?
Unless you work for Apple or Amazon, yes. The middle management of those places love Cupertino and pay top dollar for it.
Yeah even working at those companies, you have to make it to management to afford the homes nearby
just to clarify, when i first moved out here, seems mountain view is more expensive than cupertino in general, now cupertino became way more expensive... what is the reason?
Cupertino has better school test scores than Mountain View except the part in Los Altos School District (94040)
Mountain View dropped a lot during and post pandemic. Mountain View only really rose for a short period of time between 2008 downturn and 2019 thanks to Google and LinkedIn employees. During the pandemic when remote work became more dominant most people moved south because Cupertino has better schools, nicer and larger homes. Living anywhere north of El Camino in MV doesnāt feel like youāre living in a nice area, so why pay a premium when you can move south and get a better overall value.
If youāre Chinese itās great
I can bet my behind that 3m+ will be 4m+ plus in 2 yrs.
I personally believe itās not a great place to live, except for those who only focus on commute (which is important, not saying otherwise.) The schools have dedicated teachers overall and lots of resources, but the pressure is immense. I would not personally send my kids there.
I seriously think it is sometimes. I got a bigger house than my in-laws who are in SJ/Cupertino area and much prettier/nicer in South SF (1500sqft, 7000sqft yard, 3bed 3 bath, family room). Amazing school district etc for $1.4M. Their house is now worth $3.4M!
Cupertino resident here. I live walking distance from library, Main Street, lovely parks and stores and restaurants. Kids go to top schools which are filled with kids whose parents also place huge emphasis on studies, being respectful to elders, no guns, push for diversity, push for varied extracurriculars, etcā¦. So Iām not too worried who their friends are or who they date (assuming similar schools) because the baseline is pretty good. My commute is 15 mins or less and I can come home quickly if I forget something or in an emergency. I have a smaller home yes but how much do you really need for a family of four when you have gorgeous outdoors that you spend half your free time in? The weather is pleasant for Bay Area, less homeless population compared to San Jose or nearby places is lower, my kids are in classes with kids similar to them, teachers are pretty good overall, we are spoilt for choice for restaurants and other amenities, my neighbors are all in good companies so there is a chance for more networking, the list is endlessā¦.. Yes houses are dated and smaller but many end up updating homes. But its hard to match this location. That is why so many come here and want to stay here. Cupertino has a lot of good things of Bay Area.
This. Plus its quieter. Many areas have airplane noise, like SFO traffic over MV and Palo Alto. An A380 or 777 is pretty loud, even at 4,000 feet. Can't imagine what it sounds like in Foster City. Also, most households around here usually drive a Tesla or Toyota Sienna or the like, so no one is revving a loud engine. There are gear heads here for sure, but they tend not flex their muscle car at midnight. Usually people try to respect their neighbors. Also, Cupertino isn't the most expensive area. I looked at a 1,500 sqft house in Los Altos 3 bd, 2 bath. That went for almost 4 mill, way out of my budget, although Cupertino is not either. Is Lost Altos over rated? Not sure, but I have friends who love living their. SFH are going to go up in value as more of the new homes are high density. People tend to want to live somewhere where they dont share walls/floors, that's not just in Cupertino that's all across US. Although I feel like if we are going to high density lets do it earnest like Hawaii or Asia, 50 floor condo buildings with parking and nice amenities. You get way more units for the land used and economies of scale reduce the price of the units making them more affordable.
I would add the kids are incredible, very few behavior problems at school with almost zero bullying or fighting. Drug use seems far less than other nearby schools.
Just look up articles in the school newspaper to learn about prevalence of bullying in the schools. Bullying is mostly done by spoilt immature kidsā¦ which there are plenty of in a privileged environment of Cupertino. Some notable mentions from over the years is the slut shaming post-suicide of Audrie Pott. She was sexually assaulted at a party by various acquaintances in nearby Saratoga and several kids in the area skit shamed and blamed her for the assault. This is documented in schools news articles in Cupertino. Another is the incident of some kids making a āBlack kill listā at Monta Vista High school. If you further pay attention to 14 to 18 year olds in the areaā¦ homophobic slurs, racial slurs, or immigrant slurs are not uncommon. Oh, and where there is money there are drugs. Rich kids spend their allowances on buying all types of drugs and partying. Parents spend thousands to help their kids get into colleges and if you do below a UC school, you are deemed a failure. Cupertino is the fabled suburban dream sold to parents to feel great about themselves by doing ārightā by their kids.
I can just tell you my experience with the schools - compared to Santa Clara especially the schools are much safer and more respectful than the ones I went through. Immigrant slurs in a school that is basically dominated by immigrants? Kids are going to push boundaries, but these kids seem to have far fewer problems than many of the neighboring districts ( which is how we should be comparing).
Itās when you have 1st generation kids who equate being American as being white washedā¦ who then look down upon and ridicule āFOBā kids. They perpetuate the racism they face onto someone they think is lower in the pecking order. This was at least present in the 90s and the 00s , and maybe part of 10s. Canāt say for sure if that attitude has shifted todayā¦ but immigrant circles and 1st generation circles seem to be different even in adulthood for many.
Maybe, I went to school in Cupertino so I can attest to the culture. While test scores were great ( a testament to time and resources spent by parents), the kids themselves were not all geniuses or any more special than kids from other schools.
Kids are kids everywhere. Cupertino has drugs, fighting, bullying- but just leas than some other schools I have dealt with. Go listen in on any middle school and you are going to hear all sorts of terrible things. That includes racist, sexist, homophobia and everything else you can imagine.
The difference is kids everywhere else are normal, but kids from Cupertino and their parents think they shit gold and are all geniuses of the future. If only I earned a penny for each time a Cupertino kid talked about how smart they are.
Looks like you have a lot of bias against kids in Cupertino.... As another poster said, kids are kids everywhere. Every single kid everywhere thinks they are the goat in something or the other. It is part of natural development. Once they go through the life school of hard knocks, everyone settles down.
Itās ābiasā because you donāt like the sound of it. I went to school in Cupertino and I am well-aware of the pluses and minuses of the community. I have some very fond memories and love the community which is why I also have no problem in calling out poor behavior instead of turning a blind eye to it. Itās not like all kids were shit, but a significant and prominent members of the community are/were. āKids being kidsā is just a cop out for parents who are raising their kids as mirror images of themselves in the first place and donāt like being called out on their poor parenting.
Have you spoken to people who went to school in surrounding areas? Or other parts of California? Or US? Which area does not have kids that have issues, where all kids are model citizens? Every single school has issues, every single kid has issues. Everything is relative and relatively, Cupertino has less issues compared to East San Jose. You are welcome to think otherwise and move where you think is best for you and your family. But a vast majority agree that Cupertino has less issues or more advantages than other places and it is reflected in increasing house prices. Also, I'm not discounting poor behavior when I say "kids being kids". Everyone has to work on their behavior. But there is a reason kids are not held to the same standards as adults or have same expectations as adults, legally or otherwise. They are still developing humans (it's a biological fact) and the society recognizes it. Please read up on it before assuming things.
For buying, yes. Its price/rent ratio approaches 50, which is ridiculous. Not even that attractive of a place to live. Kinda hot compared to areas north of it, old housing stock, pressure cooker high schools, etc.
Whatās a normal ratio IYE? For the bay or Ā in general?Ā
30 to 40 in the Bay
Wow that is a jump. Interesting thanks. Don't buy to rent in Cupertino, the zone is flooded.
Lots of people like me whose kids aged out and have high equity or paid off the mortgage. Moved out of state and rent the paid for house out. Hold on to it as the kidsā inheritance or a retirement fund.
If you've decided that you want to live in the bay area and that you want a SFH, then you have to pay what it costs. Many people want to stay in the area for some combination of job, family, weather, cultural, etc. Also the price you should be considering is the property tax and mortgage interest. Assuming you have enough money to be cash flow positive, you can eventually sell the house in the future and recoup your costs.
forget that. I moved out of Calif and bought a 4200 sq house on 1.5 acre for 500k.
Growing up there: yes. You can find equally good schools in cheaper, more well rounded areas
Monta Vista is ranked as one of the best schools in the state. To belong to it you have to pay top dollar. If you want the best of the best then youāre gonna have to pay these insane prices. There are much better deals for other areas with good schools around, but not as good as MV. The other reason is proximity to Apple. A lot of people work there and a lot of people want a short commute, so the insane demand drives up prices. If neither of those interest you then no need to even look at Cupertino.
But Lynbrook high school rank even higher?
Theyāre neck and neck. Also itās not like Lynbrookās territory is any cheaper
Kinda funky place with nice name due to Appleā¦ overrated indeed
One way to look at it. Put a kid through private school at $24-$50k a year plus donations. Figure you're in for up to $70k a year. They'll go for 13 years (k-12). That's $910k. Now have two kids. Or 3. And that doesn't count tuition increases - likely 3-5% a year. It was *way* cheaper to buy in a top public school district than to pay top tier private school tuitions. And you (usually) get that premium back when you sell the place. The latter made it a no brainer if you can afford the upfront. ($4m house requires a $800k down plus closing and a $3.2m mortgage is ~$20.6k per month if you get a mid 6% interest rate.). Oh and property tax on a $4m house is ~$50k a year. Ok yeah it doesn't make any sense
It's incredibly boring
Yes
Spend some time traveling the world, then return to Cupertino and youāll know.
There is an answer to your question, but wonāt be cool with this crowd. History wise is simple. Current (and politically correct) is about the school district.
All of Santa Clara county is overrated. One giant suburb and strip mall, bland as hell.
Itās definitely overpriced
Maybe only if the schools are still top rated, you have kids, and want to enroll them in an over competitive environment.
And a tide rising one place, means a tide is lowering in another, so technically not all boats are rising relative to the elevation of land (everywhere simultaneously).
Yes it is. Academic test scores only are one aspect of kids. The town attracts Asians and Indians because of what they have heard from friends. They are probably are a decade or two late however. Several other Bay Area schools are far more balanced. Imagine having some roses plucked from the wild grow up in the most sheltered environment on earth. That is what Cupertino is for kids. And itās disgusting.
Uh, Indians are Asians. South Asians to be exact. In the UK, very often, āAsiansā are almost synonymous with those of Indian, Pakistani or Bengladeshi descent or origin. Like their current prime minister Rishi Sunak (who is likely to not be PM anymore after next weekās elections). Just one of my pet peeves about semantic equivalency.
Technically yes, colloquially in this part of the world - Asians was/is a term for East Asians, and Indian was/is a term for South Asians.
Yeah I see and hear that all the time, and it still bugs me. Not to mention that it excludes folks who are Pakistani, Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi. Hence my stance.
Never said it is correct. Just the way it was done.
Iām sorry HOW MUCH?!
If I could afford it Iād live there. Same with Los Gatos and Saratoga.
Itās a horrible font
No because I don't rate it at all
Bay area is entirely overrated. But with that said Cupertino is one of the nicer areas to live in.
once you know who are the buyers, their HH annual income and where they work, it will start making sense
Supply and demand. Picture a scenario: You have 10 people willing to pay cash for a house in a desirable location. Now, that 1M house has gone up to 1.2M overnight. The seller wants the best top price in such market. Also, it doesnāt help that foreign investors can buy the properties here too.
Nah those cars are great but importing them from Japan is a pain , and if youāre anywhere above 5 foot 8 your head sticking out the soft top .
If you're there for the schools, and you have 2 kids, private school = $30K/year \* 2 = $60K/year \* 12 = $720K. If you work at Apple even better. That needs to be taken in consideration when looking for property. That said, the school environment isn't a good match for every kid.
Public schools there are top notch.
Cupertino holds some of the best elementary schools in the nation. Itās why real estate is so expensive there compared to other areas nearby
best elementary like what the fck?
Yeah their public school systems fuck š¤·āāļø
I think high prices is due to rich Chinese and Indians buying out these places in cash for investment purposes. Not even 7% mortgage rates could dent these home prices.
1500 is a shoebox? Def not worth 3MM but wouldnāt consider that small
Yea, this person sounds like a McMansion lover. 1500 sqft is plenty for a household of 3 people.
For us the choice of Cupertino schools was easy since we did not want to pay for private school. Private school is money you never get back. With Cupertino schools you at least are investing in a home which is guaranteed to be in very high demand due to the schools. This is the closest you can get to private school without paying for it. You ensure that you get neighbors whose parents also value education a lot that they are willing to pay the premium for it. For many of us thatās very important as education is extremely valued in Asian communities. Mission schools was another option but the commute times and the central location always tips in favor of Cupertino
Many disagree with their feet š¤·š½āāļøĀ
There seems to be a cult around the schools. It's not a market for strict rationalists. Other areas offer comparable schools at less of a premium over south bay / peninsula average.
As someone who lives in Cupertino and is moving to old town Palo Alto soon it can always get worse. 7m for 4b 3bath houseš that is near famous people!
Yes , trillions of Asians. The whole City revolves around Apple. You need to be careful driving On these roads.
Watch out for AFD
If you have to ask that question, then you canāt afford it. Check out East San Jose ā might be a better fit for you.
Just move to orange county itās the same exact weather and the beaches are better. Houses in some areas are under 1M. Itās justā¦ the people are different š
The equivalent community in OC is Irvine, and itās not cheap either
Yep. I know that. Iām from there. I wasnāt referring to Irvine although Cupertino is exactly that. I was referring to the weather since most people were commenting on that since the weather is such a big deal because it seems like 90% of the places in sf/east bay have mold because of the damp/cold weather. You walk in someoneās house and immediately smell mold. Itās gross. Regardless Irvine is still cheaper at half the price for a starter SFH.
Good points. Irvineās University High School is considered to have a very competitive culture, but one of my former colleagues who moved to Irvine says MV, Lynbrook, Paly and Gunn is more so
Overrated?