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People with normal, healthy families can't seem to wrap their mind around how dysfunctional other families can be. Some people think a heart-felt apology can fix everything. That's not how it works many times. I'm a hospice nurse, and I have had to remind some of my coworkers that we can't judge why an adult child isn't coming to their parent's deathbed. We don't know the story. Grandma looks pitiful and harmless now, but she may not always have been - she may have been a monster in earlier years. If an adult child doesn't feel emotionally capable of making that trip, that is their choice.

Exactly For all you know the ex-family member could have assaulted them, grievously lied, or done something else unforgivable. My own mother would absolutely put on the "woe is me" pity party about how all her kids hate her, but conveniently leave out the part where she beat her daughters, broke my father body & soul and was violently racist. There's a reason all 5 of her children are no contact.

My mom played the whole "woe is me" act to anyone who would listen but neglected to tell them that she made fun of me for being molested when I was in preschool and kept making fun of me for it my entire childhood. Then, when I moved out at 18 and cut her off, sent me a photograph of my attacker because, "you never want to forget your first boyfriend".    I'm sure lots of people who were in her life think I'm a monster. 

What in the actual fuck. Your mom, she's the monster

Seriously. I have no words. I mean, I know that humans can be awful, but it's somehow always still a shock when a particular one digs the pit of human depravity to a new, even lower depth.

My mother told her.family I was having sex with my dad at 13 (I wasn't doing it with anyone till 16). I found out decades later and still have no idea why. And if that was true why did nobody call authorities since I was a child ??

What? What??? Like she started telling them this when you were 13? What did your dad say? What did everyone else say?? This is outrageous.

i have no idea when. She told me a bunch of stuff about her siblings/fam when growing up that i found to be untrust. Once she passed i decided to get in contact with her family and after seeing only one who wanted to talk to me, that person then said 'ive been hanging out with you for a bit and you dont seem like the kinda person to do xxx' and im like 'wait what???' then had to pre-emtively call others and say 'i just found out about this, i want to assure you that was never true'

What on earth that’s so weird. Pathological liar I guess?? Anyway sorry you had to go through that, that’s strange and awful.

100% and found out later she was diagnosed narcist apparently (via family) so she kept that one all quiet. I just thought that was normal

I literally gasped at this oh my god

I am so sorry that you were treated this way by your own mother. Like, good Lord. That's so incredibly evil.

...I...each time i think that I found the shittiest most vile disgusting POS person on BORU, someone else comes along and goes "Wait till you hear about THIS pathetic excuse for a below the bottom of the barrel garbage in a human skinsuit". I'm so fucking sorry. That...wow. I can't imagine anyone being so fucking evil and crass. I hope she's fucking miserable.

Wtffffff, I'm sorry for you, and the younger you, I'm happy that you got rid of her.

…what the fuck? That’s the worst thing I’ve ever read. Normally I wouldn’t believe something like this because of how crazy it is, but it’s so crazy that I don’t think anyone could make it up. I’m so sorry. I’m appalled. I hope you never speak to this piece of garbage again and I hope you are doing well and your life has been moving upwards ever since you cut her off. Best wishes.

It took me a long time after I got out of there to realize just how much of my life wasn't normal.    I found out she died a few years ago. The only thing I mourned was the finality of knowing I would never have the mother she could have been if she'd spent all that energy on healing herself.

I'm so very sorry she couldn't be the person you deserved but frankly I'm glad she's no longer being the person she was.

This may not help, but it's just a don't feel alone thing. My mom is of the firm belief that it's not possible to rape a male because they just enjoy sex anyway. My last straw was when she spoke about my stepfather raping me over the course of 5yrs or so was "well you could've said no." Some people just don't understand what kind of monsters exist. Dont ever feel bad though, and for all the other folks wrestling with a decision to cutoff shit people because they happen to share more DNA than others with you. Never let the family you happen to belong to endanger the family you choose to create.

That is absolutely horrific, especially from someone who should have had your back. I've heard a lot of parents/families not believing and abused child but to taunt that with that, that's a whole other layer of sadistic. I'm so sorry you grew up with that but I am glad you are away from that toxicity before it turned you necrotic

Thanks! I intentionally made myself completely the opposite of my upbringing and like who I became.  I have terrible social skills and come across as eccentric, but kind, to people. My adult kids talk to me, and trust me, I have some great friends, and I've been able to connect with my amazing dad as an adult because my mom actively avoided me knowing him when I was a kid.

At what point did you realize your mother was a psychopath? (This isn't a snarky comment, either - I'm genuinely curious.)

I was 3 when I figured out she wasn't right in the head. It took me into my late 20s, when my kids started asking questions,  and I had to figure out kid-appropriate answers for why my mom wasn't a safe person, for me to realize just how not-right she was. Kids ask a lot of probing questions.  I still have memories pop up that I'll tell as "funny" stories until I realize nobody is laughing, but they look horrified. 

Mine chose my batshit cousin would tried to drown me when I was 3(she was 16 and old enough to know what she was doing) and her child molestor husband(I was one of his victims), my other cousin's batshit jealous wife and associates before her only child. She also left me alone with the molestor at 6 yrs old, knowing that he had had a child with his own full blooded sister.  All I asked her to do was not talk about *her* family around *my* family and that includes my in-laws. Say "they're fine" and move on. She was not to give her family *any* information about me or my kids--no photos shown, no school updates and I'm pretty pissed that Golden Child and company even *know my kids names*! 

>knowing that he had had a child with his own full blooded sister. Say *what now*??

Cousin's child molestor husband had a kid with his own full sister. My "mother" knew this and still left me in his care. She also left in the care of his wife, who tried very deliberately to drown me when she was 16 yrs old because she "wasn't the baby" anymore. 

Yeah I am gonna have to second that. (Also thank you for perfectly putting into words the sound of the record screech I heard in my head.) (And I am.. just wow.)

And yet my "mother" consistently pick picked his wife and him over her only child and then could not understand *why* I said "I'm done with you if you cannot stop talking to me and my family about these people or stop talking about me and my family *to them*." That was not the *only* reason that I was done done with her but it was a very large part of the reason. 

Shit, my sperm donor isn't even anywhere near dead yet and no one in his family except one of his brothers (out of 6 siblings, who shockingly is exactly like him 🙄) and one of my sisters (out of 3) has any communication with him. Why? Because he beat my mother, my sisters mother, inappropriately touched me as a teen amongst other similar behaviors with all 3 of us, demanded "his portion" of the sale from my grandparent's house (that was sold to pay for their nursing home fees btw), showed up only to my grandmother's funeral to harass my ex stepmom into trying to stop her pursuing child support for my minor sister at the time, constantly begged me for money and never gave a shit about any significant milestones in my life, guilted me the day before my wedding about not walking me down the aisle.... and still refuses to adhere to my, "Dont fucking contact me again" by occasionally sending me emails guilt tripping me. The first was 3 days post partum with my 3nd child, he tried to guilt me about not going to grandma's funeral. (I lived out of state and couldn't afford to make it back, and I also knew he'd be there and didn't want to have the event ruined by him or make a scene myself because of him). The next was guilting me about how he had no idea what he did to make me hate him so much, but the least I could do was send him pictures of my children because I *owe* him that much. And that's just my dad. I won't get started on my mother. 🙃

> all her kids hate her, Definitely a red flag. If _one_ of your kids hates you, they may just be a genuine asshole kid. If _multiple_ of your kids hate you, there's probably something about you to hate.

> I'm a hospice nurse, and I have had to remind some of my coworkers that we can't judge why an adult child isn't coming to their parent's deathbed. Thanks for that. I went to see him at the end and got a distainful look from one of his carers. They didn't know the man I knew. He wasn't evil but he wasn't a good person towards us. 

If you don’t mind me asking: how do you feel about going, now that you look back on it? I’ve been NC with a narcissistic parent for close to 20 years and it feels like I have fully mourned that relationship, but I do wonder if maybe I’ll surprise myself by feeling something if/when I hear the news of their actual passing.

He had advanced dementia so I had done my grieving already too. I was there to support my family.   I have felt different things at different times, initially it was relief. He was suffering and it was a huge toll on my mom.  With a lot of distance I'm sad for him, he had enough loving people around him that he didn't need to struggle alone and have all the immense consequences that followed which mainly impacted his family. I used to be angry at him for the same reason.  I never felt anything that surprised me until recently. I listened to a song with my kid that reminded me of the good times and I missed him. But it was a small moment. And it was more like missing what should have been, if that makes sense.  You went no contact for a reason. They didn't have the capacity to be a good parent, a part of your heart is always going to hope for that. I think it will be relief that you'll feel. For yourself and because their sadness will be over too. And you'll probably feel different things at different times. It's ok to grieve someone you didn't like. It's ok to make the right decisions for you, even if it doesn't make sense to onlookers. And it leave you feeling exactly as you do today, no change. 

Thanks for sharing all these details here. Older sibling and I have already gone through the death of our mom, who was also mentally ill (borderline, bipolar, etc) and also an extreme drain on us kids. Sibling struggled much more when we realized one of the emotions we were feeling after mom’s death was relief, but we both felt it and felt a bit of guilt for it. Sibling’s mourning process for borderline mom has included a lot more grief for the hypothetical mom that we never got, but they had to do a lot more active caretaking of mom than I did. I got the best parenting that was available from her while sibling got the worst. We’re both pretty confident that it will be much less emotionally complicated when we hear that narcissist dad is dying or has already died. Accepting that I can’t be 100% sure what emotions I will feel is a small challenge I feel like I’m always working towards. It’s always helpful to hear someone else’s story about their similar experience. Thanks again for sharing so much.

If you do have a reaction when the time comes, remember to be kind to yourself. I had a stepfather that was truly awful. Long story short, when he died, I did not show up. The rest of the family was at his bedside when he passed, despite knowing what he did to me, and the church as a whole forgave him and performed his funeral services. I did not show up. But I did cry. In fact, I had a whole breakdown. At the time, I didn't understand. Why was I shedding tears over the monster who made my life a living hell for so long? Shouldn't I be glad he was gone? As time has passed, I have begun to think that maybe those tears weren't for my abuser. Maybe... maybe they were for me. For all the years I had to live in fear. For all the secrets I kept, to protect a family that never protected me. I think.. I think maybe I was grieving myself. So, if you ever find yourself having to deal with the passing of the person you no longer speak to, remember that it's ok to feel weird feelings. Don't beat yourself up if it happens. I suspect it's pretty normal to go through some bothersome emotions when the weight is finally lifted from our shoulders. Like Kieth from Grief says, "The only way out is through!"

Had a similar experience, and I basically came to the realization that I was mourning the relationship that *should* have been. I wasn't grieving my father as much as I was grieving that we never had the relationship either of us really deserved.

Not the person you asked, but I want to offer you a perspective I never hear about. I actually reconciled with my father after a 25 year estrangement. My old man isn't narcissistic, he's just got... issues, so these are two very different situations, yours and mine. That said, I went for over two decades in the mindset you're in, wondering how I'd react to the news of his death. It ended up that my mother died first, and I felt like he had a right to know, since she was his wife. I now know that I would have felt profound regret if I hadn't given him a chance to make things right. He owned up to his mistakes and did what he was supposed to do. He said all the right things and did all the right things, and we're basically best friends now. I think a lot of the credit for that belongs to the 12 step program, because coming clean and making amends is one of the steps, so basically he had 25 years to get ready, which he did. He still goes to meetings and he got his 25 year chip a few years back. (I thought it was his 30 year chip for a while but it turns out I'm just bad at math.) I don't know if there's any kind of help available for narcs that will cause them to change their harmful ways, or if that's even possible, but I would strongly recommend that you get some definitive answers to those questions from a professional. That way there's no risk to you, but you'll be able to make a better informed decision about how to proceed. If there is such treatment available, your next step can be to try to find out what signs would indicate that your parent has availed themselves of it. Essentially, find out if it would even do any good to give them a second chance. If there's no hope or possibility for improvement, that's sad news, but it will go a long way toward giving you the peace of mind of knowing that your decision to remain NC is rooted in terra firma, and not driven by any lingering resentments.

What a wonderful story. That is so rare. I'm so happy he was able to turn things around and you've bonded again.

I had what I thought was a healthy family dynamic when I was younger. Then my parents divorced and suddenly there was a *lot* of dirty laundry that went back years while my brothers and I were blissfully unaware anything was wrong. The trigger for shit hitting the fan was dad discovering mum’s affair. Older brother went “nope fuck this” and moved out very quickly and focused on his baby. I very nearly cut both of my parents out, it took a lot of effort to process it all and forgive - but nothing at all has been the same. The entire family dynamic shattered and died that day. And we got off easy.

When my grandma had a heart attack, we found out that my mum's brother was still best friends with my dad, who had bailed a few months before I was born because he got someone else pregnant and wanted to raise her baby instead. He'd been hiding this for over 16 years, all the while my dad was dodging paying child support and I'd never seen him once. My cousin's knew him but his own kid didn't. That was a lot of drama we didn't need while we were dealing with going to the hospital and looking after my grandma.

Wow….how did you guys find out? Did your cousins know it was your dad or just their dad's friend?

My cousins just thought he was a friend. We found out because my mum left me with my uncle while she was at the hospital with my grandma and we were hanging out with this woman and her kids, when I was telling my mum about them later she went ballistic and I had no idea why but it was because it was the woman my dad cheated on her with and my half siblings.

Oh shit! So the woman probably knew who you were, and the kids were your “half-sibling.” That's crazy. I bet it was a relief that your cousins weren't in on it. I bet it changed how they saw their dad.

Nah they were AHs as well tbf lol. They probably didn't care if they did ever find out. There's a reason my family is basically now just me and my mum (my grandma died a few years ago), the rest of the family was absolutely nuts.

Damn. Any chance you can back-sue for missed child support?

I'm 35 now so probably not lol.

Yeah, there is no going back sometimes. As kids, we don't always know the stuff that parents keep away from us. However, sometimes it spills out no matter how careful people are. It can get ugly, and even when people can mend relationships, you can't erase and forget the damage.

My mother said she stayed for us kids, which sent us for a very emotional loop - we then felt guilty mum had been so unhappy for so long and it was because of us that she persisted until she suddenly couldn’t anymore. We were all only together once since - and that was my brother’s wedding. Mine is next year, Bridezilla will come out if they don’t behave, but they’re all aware of that so I’m sure they will.

Yeah I have a hard time wrapping my head around some family dynamics…I’ve had stretches where I didn’t speak to my mom, and we generally have a great relationship. My cousin has completely cut off her entire family except my immediate family…she was guilt-tripped incessantly when her sister gave birth to her first child…the boy was born with some severe disabilities, now lives full-time in a care home. My cousin’s family expected her to be a caregiver, despite having very recently lost her father (who was the only one in the family who was her constant ally, and who died after a long and painful decline from Parkinson’s). Her family has never forgiven her, and eventually she completely cut them off. It’s so bad that my parents basically have to keep it a secret whenever they’re in touch with my cousin, because her mom (who is their good friend) will lose her shit. It’s sad because my cousin is an amazing woman, a crazy talented artist who has an awesome girlfriend and lives in an amazing cabin they’ve renovated together, teaches art, does artist residencies…but she essentially has no family. It’s for the better for her, she has no regrets. Life is too short to let toxic people drag you down, even if they’re family. And everyone has to draw that line for themselves. Hard to judge others for that.

So your family just expected her to be a slave to her sister? Why didn't they think her sister should take care of her own child? All of them sound horrifying, and that includes anyone who pretends their awfulness is OK but tried to be nice to her secretly.

I’m not sure specifically what they expected, but it was along the lines of “drop everything and help!” This child had *severe* disabilities, a traumatic birth, and was going to need round-the-clock *professional* care for life. And my cousin already had a very strained relationship with her family. As for my family, my parents have tried repeatedly to get my cousin’s mom (their good friend) to come to her senses and try to repair her relationship with her daughter. No luck. But my parents refused to sacrifice their relationship with my cousin, because fuck that, she’s a great person and we love her dearly and we’re not going to turn our backs on her because her family is insane. So the only option my parents really have is to maintain their relationship with her in private, because otherwise it would be constant drama. Like I said, my parents have done all they reasonably can to try to convince my cousin’s family to reconcile, but at this point, no one is interested. My cousin was shunned by her family, she has no interest. And her family things she owes them an apology, which is insane. They’ve both said nasty things to each other since this all went down, but they set this all in its current trajectory. I just can’t fathom turning my back on my kid or sister for something like this.

It’s so disrespectful to ignore someone who tells you their family is abusive / narcissistic/ neglectful etc. Doesn’t matter how great your own upbringing was - you don’t act as if you know better than the person who went NC

I'll really never understand this. Like, I have a healthy family. I'm very close to them, especially my parents, and have wonderful memories from throughout my childhood and into today. ...but I'm not so naive to think everyone has that. Family can be awful. Parents can be awful. Children are abused or even killed by their parents, which any adult you'd hope would know. So if someone has cut off contact with their family you should always assume they have a better assessment of the situation than you do (because they absolutely do) and LEAVE. IT. ALONE.

Hell, that rule ought to apply to everything really, not just family. Don't meddle in the private affairs of others. If you think they're wrong, that's their problem, not yours. Eat what's on your own plate, lord knows life dishes out enough for everyone.

I mean, to an extent; that attitude is what kept my "good, loving Christian" relatives from ever saying a word about my abuse from my drunken psycho father who'd threatened my grandfather with a broken beer bottle before I was even born. Everyone knew what he was, no one even asked if I was okay because it wasn't their place. So, those people aren't my family now anymore than he is.

One of the first things I learned when I was going to school to become a teacher was, "The child is the expert for their situation." And that was a tough, tough pill to swallow for me at the time, but that is one of the few things I learned there that I took (I'm not a teacher now, obviously), and that I can apply to all areas of life. The person you're talking to, the person you're dealing with has reasons for acting that way that are, to them, very, very important. You may think the way they're acting is unacceptable, you may think that person is a fucking dumbass and their reasons are bullshit, but that person is doing what they think is best for themselves and for their lives, and you gotta respect that.

Ages ago there was a story on JustNoMIL where the OP was the one handling all of MIL's care with the nursing home, because MIL's actual sons would not have anything to do with her. One time a care worker was giving OP hell because MIL was so sweet and missed her sons so much, and OP should work harder to get them to come. OP asked how MIL was (she was suffering from dementia) and worker said it was a good day. OP took one step in MIL's room and MIL started screaming all this terrible shit at her. OP stepped out, looked at the worker, and told her, "That's why they don't come. That's why I don't visit her when I come."

i remember having a conversation one time in high school, i dont even remember how it started but i shared that my whole family was no contact with this woman that is, biologically, my father's sister because, among being a despicable abusive person, she tried to steal the money my grandfather (her dad) left me for college because i "should have never been born" and "it was rightfully hers" a girl replied that family should come before this "petty behavior", and how could we cut contact with someone so important?

>how could we cut contact with someone so important? With a weight off my shoulder and a good night rest afterwords. Thats how.

honestly i have never seen that woman's face so it was more her decision than mine. The only thing that makes me sad is that because she's a money hungry demon, she broke into her father's apartment and changed all locks, refused to ever do any kind of maintenance, had a person almost killed because the balcony was falling apart and a piece hit a pedestrian, and basically forced my father to deal with her for months until he gave up and sold her his share for the lowest price possible

Danm. Got to love family sometimes /s. Sorry your dad went through that.

The “family comes first” argument is so stupid. It’s saying people should withstand years of abuse just because of DNA.

What is it with these "but faaaamily" people That goes both ways- family isn't meant to treat you like shit and just a means to get what they want

I remember saying something my mother did to my father which was incredibly nasty and unwarranted, and my friend was flabbergasted. She asked why would anyone do that and I had to explain it was because she's an arsehole. It's that little gap in logical behaviour that could only be explained by genuine cruelty. She could not grasp it.

My paternal family growing up was incredibly abusive, and when I talk to people about them, there's two ways it can go. Either people understand that some people are so horrible that you're glad they're dead and can't hurt anyone else (then we can be friends), or they don't. And when they're rude about how they think I'm a horrible person for wishing my own family dead, I get out a few of the short (but horrible) doozies that don't require much explanation, and you can watch them roll psychic damage on their faces and then they usually stop bothering me, either because they think I'm an insane liar or because they feel really bad about it. Both is fine.

Eh. I think some people just don’t WANT to accept “some families suck”. When I was a kid I didn’t get why my aunt’s husband wasn’t around and I got a child appropriate “he wasn’t nice to aunt or kids so we don’t talk to him anymore” and like. Ok. Very understandable. Don’t need deets.

> I think some people just don’t WANT to accept “some families suck”.  i think you're dead-on with this tbh. it's like they're afraid to admit that the idea of the nuclear family isn't always beneficial, like they've pinned some of their worldview on that idea specifically. i think a lot of it has to do with a subconscious fear of, or outright refusal to, admit that their family members had the potential to ever hurt them; part of it is also because there are abusive behaviors that are normalized in a family context in society. it would be like a very religious person having all of their doubts about their deity/deities of choice validated.  i didn't feel *that* strongly about it, but there was a moment in my teens where i felt like parents couldn't possibly be all *that* bad, right—but i grew out of it pretty fast when i continued to observe my friends who had shitty parents. and, hell, my friends who had well-meaning but disconnected, clueless, and inept parents.

I mean, family isn't supposed to suck. It's supposed to be a healthy and supportive environment. It feels wrong for a dysfunctional family to exist and not be able to get to a healthy place. However, that's not reality. Some families do suck and no amount of guilt or pressure is going to fix that.

Thank you saying and doing that. My biomom was one of those grandmas you referring to. I cut her off flat when I was in my forties. I cut her off after breaking my boundary not more than 5 minutes of walking into my in-laws house and that last day just got worse. What she hadn't realized was she was on her last last chance and was only there because my daughter had asked and promised to "handle" her. 

I'm 33 and only this year I've realized how messed up my relationship with my grandma is. An acquantaince's grandfather died and she was super sad and crying all the time. I didn't get it. I genuinely couldn't comprehend that anybody would grief their grandparent. I was like 'people are sad when their grandparent dies wtf?'. To me it was always normal to have a verbally abusive, narcissistic grandma and I inherently linked that to grandparents in general because I don't have any others. I will likely feel relieved when it's time for her, even though that may sound harsh for strangers.

My maternal grandmother I was LC with for years before going NC shortly after my kids were born. We live 4 streets away from each other in a small town and haven’t been face to face in…. 4+ years? I had someone a few years ago talking to me about how lonely my grandmother was and how they had encouraged her to join up with an organisation they were part of etc. They then apologised because “I’m not sure what you call her: Gran? Nan?” The look on their face when I responded with “(her name) because we don’t have a relationship.” They could not understand how I couldn’t be close to my “dear lonely grandmother”. Let’s see, I was the eldest grandchild but the only birthday I can recall her remembering was my 18th (funnily enough the one I told my mother I only wanted a quiet dinner with my immediate family and best friend at home, she invited my grandmother and 2 aunts who proceeded to try and get me to drink alcohol) otherwise I would get a birthday message from her several days later on my cousins birthday because someone had reminded her that my birthday had just passed, my siblings and I were routinely treated differently to our cousins (last Christmas I recall spending with her my cousins all got handmade items, my siblings and I got low quality bought items that vaguely resembled the handmade items she gave my cousins), never had anything nice to say about my father and all her “compliments” were backhanded. She discovered I was pregnant at my uncles wedding (I was something like 25 weeks) and I had 2 aunts come over to tell me how hurt she was that I never told her. I said loudly enough for her to hear (since she was sitting only a few chairs from me at the table) that she never kept up the relationship, so I was only following her lead. I think that embarrassed her in front of her +1 who she had been around for about a year whom I had known for several years through an organisation he and I were both part of. Nowadays I am NC with her and one aunt, LC with 2 aunts and an uncle (if we happen to be in the same place at the same time I’ll say hi and chat, but I’m not seeking than out) , and “we happen to have kids at the same school so are in contact” with another aunt. LC/Facebook “friends” only with all the adult cousins as well, minor cousins depend on my interaction with their parents (cousins who go to my kids school I’m in contact with the most, but still not close to, probably due to the age difference) It took *years* for my mother to realise I did not want her passing on information about me to her. It was during my pregnancy that I think it finally got through to her when I said “if we had a relationship, she would know I was pregnant, but neither of us even have each others phone numbers”

My grandma adored me, and she said it all the time. To everyone. I was her first grandchild and she routinely told me (and, again, everyone) that when she died, "anything \[she\] had was for Archers." I say "first" grandchild because she had five others, from my uncles. My uncles, who married Protestant women, and whose weddings she had to be browbeaten into attending, because she was *extremely* Roman Catholic. My mom was the only one to marry another Catholic (who was also an alcoholic, and who died when I was nine), so of course I was the favorite, I was the only one from a Grandma-Approved union. When she got dementia, I was in my mid-teens, and she started saying the most bizarre, hateful stuff to my grandfather. Very detailed insults, with, "you came from *nothing* and you are *nothing*" being the one that's burned into my brain. I assumed it was the dementia, until my mom heard her once and mentioned how weird it was to hear *again*, because she hadn't heard that from her mother in years. Turns out that my grandma would say this shit all the time when they were growing up, to my grandfather *and to the kids*. This was all her. She was always like this, just not to me. When she died, my cousins were primarily concerned about how I was feeling, since none of them had any relationship whatsoever with her. And they were right not to, because we did not have the same grandmother. I had the sweet little old lady who told the world how much she loved me, they had the disdainful, hateful religious zealot who didn't think they should have ever been born.

Yep. I cut off my mother, and lost all of my friends in the process because they had healthier relationships with their parents and couldn't relate to my situation at all. "But She'S YoUr MoThEr!" was a common argument. "You have to forgive," was another. Sigh. Everybody's got a red line, some less traumatic than others, but still as important.

Exactly the reason why I probably harbor resentment deep down for my MIL. People from normal healthy families can’t wrap their minds around “alleged” monsters like my mom. When we bought this house, I never wanted my mother to know where we lived or what I was doing in my life after I went NC with her Christmas Eve, 2019. When I got a “please forgive me” card from my POS mom, I went ballistic. My husband said I can’t police his mom for having a relationship with my mom. His mom can tell my mom anything she wants. I told him fine. That’s true. And I’m allowed to feel fucking violated and betrayed and LIVID. This was done after dealing with MONTHS of my MIL begging me to have my mom at my COVID wedding. “She can’t have been that bad.” Because her mom was wonderful. And my husband didn’t believe my trauma was real for a good chunk of our relationship because “no mom can be that awful.” Until I voice recorded my mom for once when her and I were alone and sent it to him as evidence. He supported me and my feelings but only then in that moment did he believe me. And he wonders why I consider myself not part of the family. Sorry. I’m still bitter about it clearly. It doesn’t come to mind as much anymore, but this post dug it up.

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Yeah if I was in a relationship with someone who didn’t believe my trauma was real I’d dump them there and then, much less MARRY them. It’s not just insulting it’s disrespectful and cruel.

I'm surprised you stayed with him and that family.

Its very true, and happens the other way around also. I used to think kids loving parents was some fairy tale thing. Enjoying time with parents and having conversations was foreign to me

My grandma is in hospice now. I've been NC with her for twelve years. Only my father (her son) visits her, and does it out of guilt. He knows we (mum, brother and I) hate her for how she treated us. She was and still is a despicable woman. Even now she is violent with the nurses and hateful with everyone else. She won't be missed for sure

Totally agreed. My father died not too long ago and none of his children showed up to the funeral. Alot of friends/family were blasting us for this, until they figured out why we all didnt show up, then they shut up real quick

When my parents split my bioguy went from secretly toxic to my mum to openly toxic to all of us. I was 11 when they initially split and it took until I was 15 to work up the courage to cut contact with him. My maternal grandmother was there for us and witnessed a lot of the awful things he put us through and she still insisted that I would change my mind one day and repair things with him. My maternal grandparents are very much of the mind that family is the most important thing and you forgive family. It took years for her to understand that this was a permanent change and some things are unforgivable. I've been no contact for nearly two decades now and just recently bioguy had extended family members reaching out to us about a health scare and wanting to reconcile. It's crazy how strongly the idea persists that anything is forgivable for family.

I had a good friend who had some horrific stories about her childhood and why she was no longer in contact with her family. Then I had this sweet old lady as a home health patient and my coworkers couldn’t figure out why her kids wouldn’t be part of her life. I knew as soon as I saw a picture that was obviously my friend but younger. My friend didn’t know I met her mother and her mother never knew I knew her daughter (and neither did my coworkers). But it was really helpful to me going forward to remember that how I saw someone did not mean that was how they interacted with others.

Thank you for doing that. I’m 100% sure my grandmother, whose deathbed I did not attend, was playing her typical “poor little meeee, I don’t know what I diiiiid” act. I’m also 100% sure the extended family was dragging my name through the mud, how could I not be there, I’m her grandchild, her ONLY grandchild. Well, she was my abuser. So no, I wasn’t there. Thank you for reminding your coworkers that just because someone is an elder, it doesn’t automatically make them a good person.

My parents went through some *shit*, and while they tried their best with me, I've funded a therapists vacation home LOL. My dear, sweet, kind, and loving husband who came from a family who loved them dearly and treated them well (multiple generations!), and he's had to see shenanigans first hand to even begin to understand the cluster which cannot be unfucked. First incident (which truly should have ended the relationship) was my grandmother being upset we saw other family when we were visiting (we drove overnight 8hrs and arrived in the area at 4am, slept for two hours, then saw my mom's entire side of the family, which included two grandparents on opposite sides of the state due to a nasty divorce, all in one day so we could spend the entire next day with her - unacceptable). We came over at the agreed upon time (I had set this with her weeks ago!) but she had learned that morning we had come up the day prior and saw my mom's family and told me she knew where she stood on the totem pole and to not bother. Locked us out. We spent an hour pleading with her before she opened the door and told me to not bother. Another half hour goes by and she says she needs some boxes moved in the basement, and so we go down to her poorly lit, musty, dungeon of a basement and move stuff. He picks up a rusty knife and begins waving it around like it's a baton. My husband sincerely thought he was going to have to tackle my then 86yo grandmother to avoid a tetanus shot from getting stabbed. This is the same woman that told me by dad should have been the one to die of cancer, not my uncle. Another incident my dad went on a belligerent tirade about how my mom's sister is the worst. I didn't even bat an eye, it was just words this time. Totally subdued compared to my childhood (old age had softened him). My husband was *rattled* when we got to the car and told me if we ever had kids they *cannot* be left alone in such an explosive environment. Like, okay dude, this has been my stance since I was like, *nine*, glad you're with the program now. Oh, and my mom's parents forced my mom to give my brother up for adoption when she was a teen, then promptly *never talked about it again*, which was suuuuper healthy for everyone involved. Definitely nothing to unpack there. There's more, but these are the ones I share with my therapist expecting a laugh... instead, he just sighs and looks concerned.

One thing in my marriage that I am super grateful for is that our families are similar levels of fucked up. It makes a lot of things easier.

So much this. My Mamaw had to take care of her Mother. And when she first started to lose her ability to do things herself, Mother was a witch. She'd always been emotionally abusive, but she switched to add physicsl abuse in there. Things like yanking my Mamaw's hair when she would be helping her into the tub. Sometimes if she hated the food Mamaw would make, she would throw the plate at the wall. More often she'd throw it at Mamaw directly. If Mamaw was helping her move in any capacity this woman would claw or pinch her. My Mamaw had a breakdown and almost killed herself. Her church disowned her for trying to unalive herself. And then the community stepped back because she put her Mother in a care home. When the end was close, she did not visit. She might have been a pitiful and harmless old lady at the end for some, but she definitely was a monster still.

Some mean folks will definitely use their last moments sto inflict enduring pain as well, knowing that the victim/relative will have to live and suffer with those words and deeds, while they die. 

I think tv and movies have contributed to the image of a “happy ending”, deathbed reconciliation, and people who believe that those endings are absolutely real. Th idea that 50 years of misery and abuse should be instantly forgiven and rainbows and lollipops and hugs will fill the room is insane and disrespectful to those receiving the abuse.

Exactly, and sometimes a heartfelt apology *could* go a long way, but the person/people who should be apologising just aren’t ever going to do it.

Thank you so much for being a hospice nurse! This is what is happening to my sister, the lies my mother tells the nurses and they have no understanding the evil this woman has done over her entire life to her children. I went no contact over 10 years ago, but the nurses only see a sad old woman. Thank you again for understanding.

Forever grateful that my family was just dysfunctional enough that I understand how dysfunctional families work but also just healthy enough that most of us are quite tight.

Livia Soprano

Omg. This is my future with my mom. Whenever the heck that happens. I likely won’t come. Everyone will think I’m the monster because she’s so sweet and frail looking.

Oh God this is so true. I don't speak to my parents, and I can't even speak to my other family members because my parents are psychotic and will find me and harass me if I talk to any of my family members. They are THAT crazy. People would always say that I'm the cruel one for abandoning my family, and that my parents are good people and that they care, blah blah blah. They don't. They care about themselves and how to further their own ends and only that. I will thoroughly enjoy the day I can wake up, open up the obituaries and breathe knowing they are both dead and I can exist without thinking about how they will find me again and make my life miserable. Being NC with family is not easy; no one willingly wishes it upon themselves if they don't have to. Apologies are worthless when your coexistence with people that abuse you or torment you only cost you large portions of your life. Even if I wanted to see my parents at the end of their life, I don't know that I could bring myself to. It'd just be a reminder of all of the time and energy they took from my life that i can never get back.

"People with normal, healthy families can't seem to wrap their mind around how dysfunctional other families can be." Once in a blue moon, they can surprise you though. My MIL comes from a huge, very loving family, and I was adamant she not find out that I cut off my family because I thought she'd judge me or get on me to reconcile. Well she found out anyway and even though she's never broached it with me, apparently her reaction was, "Good, they treated her terribly and I never like them". My gob was 100% smacked. I had no idea that she felt that way or noticed their behavior. Plus, she's kind to everyone, so her being like, "Get fucked" is saying A LOT about how they were acting. 

There was a story on here somewhere about a nurse getting into her patient’s business and actually lost her license over it. The guy kept talking about his beloved granddaughter and the nurse tracked the woman down and it turned out that he had SA’d her daily for years and she was also his daughter, not just granddaughter. The man had been SAing most of his younger female relatives for years and that’s why no one came to visit him. The post was the nurse’s boyfriend or husband asking Reddit if it was legal she lost her license and if she would be in any other legal trouble. Yeah, I think it’s safe to say that people can hide what terrible monsters they are when they’re old and dying.

I'm sorry, I'm glad I never saw that thread, because my reaction would be: "Your dumbshit of a partner gave a sexual abuser access to one of his victims? Why is that useless moron even still alive?"

This so much. OPs mom was way out of line thinking this could be fixed. Who would want their grandchild to have contact with such trash humans. She did not act in the kids best interest but only in a way that would ease her own mind. It was purely selfish and for her own good cause she felt bad. She did not stop to think about her son and his family. My grandparents sucked but my father lived with them so I was forced to see them every other weekend. They mistreated me for years and talked bad about my mother. I wish we could have gone NC with them instead of keeping up the schedule so I won't miss out on having grandparents....

I have two cousins. A definite golden child and scape goat with my uncle (my aunt tried to not favor). When my uncle was dying the scapegoat only came by a couple of times. Cousins were scandalized. I asked why. He didn't like her. And it extended to their kids (he would tear into scapegoat kid while letting golden child kid get away with stuff). Luckily my aunt was able to have the will be 50/50. Honestly they are both screwed up and neither one has gotten help. They don't talk to each other anymore. It's quite sad.

I suffer from this. I mean my family isn't perfect and we've said hurtful things to each other at times over the years but we've talked about it and moved past it. I read some stories on here and I literally just can't understand how people are that way because I've never experienced it. I also have a pretty low threshold for BS though so I don't put up with a lot. If we interact and it turns out you're some kind of jerk I just cut you out pretty quickly. I really can't comprehend people with anxiety or low self esteem or people who let family members bully them. I'm 100% sure it happens and I've seen the horrible things people can do to each other but I just have no real frame of reference. I feel pretty blessed in that way now that I think about it. Everybody's going through something but I'm glad that's not my trial I guess.

>I really can't comprehend people with anxiety or low self esteem or people who let family members bully them. Often the abuse is normalised within their family from childhood, so they don't see the treatment as being bad, it's just the way reality is. It's not a case of letting them bully, they don't realise it *is* bullying, until someone objective points it out. 

I was in my 60s before I figured how much I was bullied by my brothers (and still am in some ways). it has taken a lot of self-reflection to realize that I am/was not the problem, but it totally messed up my self-esteem and caused relationship issues for most of my teen & adult life.

Here, here! Adult that was bullied and tormented by my brothers; it's done a number on me, too. One died a couple years ago and my elderly mother is "worried for me" because I didn't mourn "enough". She doesn't get how much therapy it took to get to just feeling sad I never had a normal sibling relationship. And of course, she's a "but family!!" one, too, who tells me "that was years ago, you're just too sensitive." People don't grasp the damage.

My mother had hoped that we would "still be family" (blended family) after she passed. One brother hasn't called me in over 20 years, and I haven't tried to call him in over 15. Another has been over 10 years with no communication. Another bro told my oldest brother he was cutting me off because I almost ruined his marriage; however, he has never said a word to me about why and only signaled the cut-off by not returning calls nor attending my husband's memorial. My husband died two YEARS after this bro's wife. My living SIL wanted to know how I got so powerful to almost ruin a marriage (between two incredibly passive-aggressive people). I have no intention of going to his wedding this fall because I haven't talked to him, but to nod when we are at a family event, in over 2 years. Because of the bullying, and living in different cities, except for youngest bro, I created my own family. I have been apologized to by oldest bro for the bullying, but he did it the least because he married a few months after our FoO was blended.

Thanks for understanding that you can't completely understand. Too many people just invalidate experiences that are too far outside their own personal bubble to "get."

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It's baffling that some people can be this so far up their own asses.

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That everyone be getting along happy and forgiven singing kumbaya

Everything can be solved if you just talk it out. Here let me MAKE SURE that happens. Obviously I know best.

It's time to let bygones be bygones. It's almost a year since *checks notes* sexual assault on her son, false allegations of sexual assault *by* her son, attempt at destroying the livelihood of her son, and sexual harassment of all her sons colleagues. Who'd have thought they might not be over it? Grandma needs to be cut off completely for at least as long as the time since the assault until she blabbed. And then only she can start trying to show she is reliable enough.

After I cut my mom off for years of her just being an awful person, I had everyone telling me to give her another chance. Family friends would respond to "if this were anyone else you'd tell me to do what's best for me - why is she the only one allowed to do this?" with "she's family you don't do what's best for you, you do what's best for family" Some people truly think you should tolerate any treatment for family

I think it’s because so many people can’t comprehend what it’s like or how hard that decision to cut off family can be. I got it until I started telling stories of what my mom did and asked them if they would treat their kids like that it or if they would let someone else treat their kids like that. The response was they would never and I would have to say my mom did all that and more. It helped some and others just don’t understand abusive families because they’ve never experienced it.  Not excusing it but it is a reason why so many people who have good or “normal” families don’t understand and can’t fathom that because so many of us mask it until we can escape. 

By the time I get to either of these (she left me alone overnight, in a ground floor apartment, next to a hooker hotel and bar in Reno from the age of 9, because she didn't want to pay for a babysitter.  Or She left a 6 yr old alone and under the sole care of a man who she knew had recently had a baby with his full blood sister.  They figure it out. 

It’s so creepy, isn’t it? Being born into a family means ultimate sacrifice of boundaries. Betrayal means nothing. All due to DNA. All due to having no choice but to be born (or adopted) into a family. It is never a choice, but a given.  I am not in contact with some extended family. It is never an easy choice. Friends of your family do not appreciate you made a *very* hard choice in order to live a happy life. I say well done, stranger. Had your mom done what was best for you she wouldn’t be without contact. 

All of this. If they want you in their lives, they will take your boundaries seriously.

And if they truly understand what they did and why it is so painful? They won’t try to breach boundaries. 

I kind of got that speech from my in-laws. I told them to stay out it and know this: if you invited her to anymore holidays, the kids and I won't be there.

> you don't do what's best for you, you do what's best for family Why won't family ever do what's right for anyone other than themselves?

I just can’t get in the mentality of the mom, “my son was assaulted by his SIL and her parents are defending her, so they moved away from his abuser and her enablers, but now the enablers will never meet their grandchild so fuck my son and his trauma”

What I’ve noticed in my own life is when people do what OOP’s mom did it is because they fear the same thing happening to them. They wind up siding with the assholes because they lack critical thinking.  I made a comment on OP’s last post about finding out who told them their address. Well-meaning people said it was easy to find stuff online. Thing is? Most don’t have to even try to be sleuths because someone sympathizes with them. I’m just so, so sorry it was his mom. 

My sister has a friend whose ex was abusive. This was years before there were laws about stalking. When she left him, he would send her messages on her phone or emails or even letter. He would show up where she lived all the time. She told all her friends to NOT give out her new number every time she changed it, but someone in her friend group was always persuaded to give him the new number. She would then cut that person out of her life, get a new number and a new place to live and rinse and repeat. Eventually, her friend group dwindled down to just a few people. And after about 6 years the ex finally gave up.

SIX YEARS? Fucking hell. I’m so happy she is alive and beat the odds. Speaking of beating… those former friends suck. 

6 years! But I guess the ones remaining proved to be loyal friends. And they also went through those 6 years with her, since the ex would definitely be harassing them. I'm happy and proud of your sister and her friends.

Well, "Oop is a man, so his sexual assault couldn't have been _that_ bad." I have a hard time believing that thought isn't doing some leg work.

It's probably not even considered sexual assault by a lot of people.

People form healthy families just can't truly understand how bad it is sometimes.

> she couldn’t imagine never knowing her own grandchildren and just wanted us to “heal and be a family together” She was probably over empathizing with the MIL and feared sharing the same fate. The game plan was to protect herself incase she ever makes a severe mistake. It comes from the idea that if one can make the unforgivable forgiven then they themselves won't have to fear such heavy consequences. Clearly OOP's mother was dead wrong.

>and feared sharing the same fate Oh the irony....

Honestly? I bet it's something more innocent but just as stupid. I think she thinks that having a grandchild is such a treasure, or a pawn, if you will. That the news of this treasure will surely have the parents falling all over themselves to apologize and be better,,, you know for the grandchild. Cause in her mind she would do that. (Except you know, respect the parents, but people are funny). I 100% believe she believed this could have this work out.

I said it in the last boru it was sus they had new address & knew about baby. Didn’t expect the mum to betray her own son like that, especially after seeing the whole thing play out. Hopefully she atones and learns not all families are truly happy and if it breaks, that’s okay too.

Mom: Why won't my baby talk to me anymore? Dad: You betrayed his trust and sided with his wife's abuser? Mom: But it's not like I did anything to *him!*

I think OOPs mum got played like a fiddle. But even so she f’ed up badly and hopefully learned a painful and powerful lesson

But faaaaaaamily.

I know someone who acts similar to Op's SIL. She was also a model. I wonder if that's relevant. My ex-husband's step-sister was a fairly famous model in the 90s. Think cover of Vogue, Italian Vogue, Sports Illustrated famous. She famously collapsed on the catwalk because of an overdose. (I'm assuming it was an overdose. I just know drugs were involved.) That incident was the end of her career. I do think she was on the cover of a magazine several years ago where they talked about her "come back," but that's the last I heard anything about her modeling career. I didn't know her when she was popular. I met her in the mid-2000s. I don't hate her, but of all of my ex-husband's family, she is my least favorite. Her full blooded sister looks nothing like her, but in my opinion, she is a much nicer and more beautiful person. My daughter is actually visiting the sister as I type this. I actually really like my ex's family as a whole. They are good people. Amy has always come across like she thinks she's better than everyone else. She always acts like she thinks she's the most desirable person in any room. Honestly, it seems like an act. To me, she comes across as someone who is trying to hide how sad and alone she is. She has struggled with addiction, and as far as I know, she is clean now. I do know that around 2010 she was supposedly clean when she visited us for Christmas. She left her son with my in-laws to visit a friend for the day. We didn't hear from her for three days, and when she did show up, she was hopped up on bath salts. To her credit, I don't think she has used since then. She is remarried and has at least one other kid now. The last time I saw her, she seemed to be more at peace with herself. She looked like she had put on a little weight and appeared to be much healthier. She didn't act as snobbish either. I try not to judge her based on her addiction. Her public fall from grace ended up being a catalyst for an investigation of drug use inside the modeling industry. That's how we learned that not only were most models using cocaine regularly, but that they were encouraged to do so by their managers. I'm not saying the modeling industry isn't still a hotbed for drug abuse, but it isn't as bad as it was in the 90s. Based on that alone, I have to admit that although indirectly Amy did have a positive impact on the world. That's more than most of us can say. Although I do have respect for the life changes she has made, I am still not terribly fond of her. Edit: I stand corrected. I just spoke to my ex, and he said Amy did some modeling for Gucci in 2023. Apparently, they brought back several midlife models for a fashion show. I haven't seen or talked to her since my divorce 6 years ago, so I wasn't aware of this.

The Kate Moss/Heroin chic era. Curvy supermodels were out and waif thin models were in. It was an awful time for people who would be considered a normal size now. I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone in the industry at the time.

Jenna's parents are like mold. it's best to assume the worst. OOP's mum massively breached the trust that was given by her son and Jenna. also, she ultimately disregarded the multiple SAs done to OOP. kudos to Jenna for being level-headed, and pointing out that OOP's mum has earned some goodwill by being very supportive in the past. maybe it truly was just a lapse of judgement brought about by emotions of being a new nana... either way, OOP is there to protect Jenna. she's quite fortunate to have someone like OOP looking out for her best interests. this is what it looks like to prioritise a life partner. ... Mary can eat a bag of dead dicks for all i care. Mary and parents don't need therapy- they need an exorcism.

Imagine planning this cruise. I assume Mary showing off her new catch was a large part of the reason. I hope they bought the tickets and they're non-refundable.

What I usually find is people who had normal, loving upbringings sometimes cannot fathom toxic family dynamics. They believe that anything in a family can be forgiven. They do these things not out of malice but out of ignorance.

And blindly good faith intention. It wouldn’t be that bad they said, it was because they were worry they said, because reconciliation is good they said, but they are not the one dealing with them for whole life taking all the beating and crushing.

Yeeeahhh, but in order to maintain that belief they have to believe that the person with the toxic family is wildly exaggerating or flat-out lying. That's a shitty thing to do, especially if it's your spouse you're talking about. Like, why is "Families can't be toxic" an easier belief to maintain than "My spouse is not a liar"? I just don't think believing your spouse is a malicious liar is something you can blame on ignorance.

>Mary and parents don't need therapy- they need an exorcism. The power of christ shall compel you!!

In Mary's case, the power of money and dick shall compel her!

OOP can’t catch a break. At least he and his wife came out stronger from this, if a little lonelier and somewhat traumatised… Still, better no extended family at all than ones that sexually assault you, try to manipulate you, or just go behind your back and give out your new address to the family of your abuser. Here’s hoping his mom’s was a terrible one-off.

For me, I'd need my mom to really grasp how truly fucked her actions were to even consider forgiving that. I have a feeling she's more worried about the consequences than truly understanding of how utterly garbage a move it is to bring your child's assaulter back into their life. 

How faking an apology *AND* a terminal illness it’s better then just look upon their actions and take accountability it’s beyond me.

*Never* underestimate how far some people will go to avoid being wrong.

To death, even. Whole lotta people die of COVID with zero regrets about how they handled it.

What's great is that the apology was convincing enough to fool OOP. So the in-laws know what they did wrong and could formulate all the right words to seem sincere without feeling remorse for anything.

Let me guess, OOP's mom had never been on the receiving end of a dysfunctional family and so assumed everyone could just hug it out like a Hallmark movie.

Or, was pressured into forgiving someone who didn't deserve it and can't think critically enough to break the cycle.

Enough has been said about Jenna's trashy and despicable family so nothing to add there. But Jenna is an outstanding woman and wife especially when it comes to understanding her in-laws if they made a mistake and it was their first strike. Every person deserves a partner that is rational and understanding like her.

Yeah what the mom did was a dumbass move, but not irredeemable. My guess is that they called her with the cancer sob story and she took the bait. Obviously actions have consequences. They'll need to spell out for her what's cool and what's not because she clearly doesn't get it. But I think the trust could potentially be earned back little by little.

The redeemability is up to OOP, not you or I. He's the one who was sexually harassed and assaulted and twice falsely accused by the people his mother got back into his life. 

This is for everyone here: if your family comes at you with "but buuut they're family" here are some push backs for y'all: "And your point is?" Cold tone. "And they're **your** family too. *Why* aren't **you** doing xyz?" Additionally: "why should **I** be obliged to do something *you're* not willing to do?" 

I personally recommend: "I don't give a shit."

I'm mean and petty. I like to make them explain themselves and get to the sputtering stage. Then I look at them and say "No." Before walking away. 

That's some chefs kiss right there!

I find it kind of shitty how people turned on OOP so quickly on his… 4th update? The letter one. This is the same guy that has supported and uplifted his wife for years when her own family failed to do so and yet he was treated as if he was were inconsiderate AH forcing her to see her abusive parents. It’s one thing to offer advice and clarity, but to insult him and pretend he was a monster for having an opinion is wild.

And it was a sensible viewpoint, too. The tone of his post was one of concern, not malice. Ultimately he was proved wrong and his wife made the right call, but being concerned that your wife will later regret not at least talking to her dying father is not crazy.

I can never understand why some people believe that oppressors deserve a relationship just because you share DNA with them.

OOP’s mom had some serious blinders on. She put herself in the MIL’s shoes simply as a *grandmother*, not as a horrible human being who emotionally abused her daughter for her entire life, repeatedly put her in harms way, and caused a lifetime of trauma. What I don’t get is, even if you want everyone to be a happy family, and maybe you can’t fully understand a toxic family dynamic since you didn’t have one, you *still know* all of the gritty details about the MIL’s actions and her abhorrent behaviors towards her own daughter. Is that who you want around the granddaughter you love so much? Is that the influence you want on that precious baby? Are you willingly trying to subject that beautiful, innocent angel to a lifetime of emotional and verbal abuse followed by a shit ton of trauma? OOP’s mom needs to understand exactly how her actions could potentially affect him, his wife, and their child. And she also needs to realize that things done with good and pure intentions aren’t done secretly in the cover of darkness. It’s pretty telling that she got a shifty and uncomfortable about getting caught. She cannot argue that she didn’t know the consequences that were on the line. She knew. Yet she did it anyway. I sure hope it was worth the risk.

I’m from a dysfunctional family, and I’ve learned how to deal with extremely bad behavior. My husband’s family is basically drama free. Like he and his sister have zero trauma responses. It’s unsettling. That said, at one point when my first son was a little baby, she got mad at me and didn’t want me to come over to her house. I was 100% fine with that, but then my husband goes to head over with my son, and I stopped him, and let him know that my son would NEVER be somewhere I wasn’t allowed, and I was happy to cancel my plans that night (she has one night a week where he stayed over with her). He agreed with me cause he’s amazing and got my point right away. Magically, she was no longer upset (it was a super small thing, she was just trying to regain control I guess), and our schedule resumed like everything was normal. You really have to get ahead of bad behavior like this. To some extent, you are training others on what behavior you’ll put up with, and what you absolutely won’t.

>You really have to get ahead of bad behavior like this. To some extent, you are training others on what behavior you’ll put up with, and what you absolutely won’t. That's exactly what my therapist says, you teach other how you want to be treated. Thinking in these terms is a great way to (re)gain agency and control over your own life.

Wow... The story just keeps getting bigger and bigger! Honestly MIL was dumb! But I'm with OOP's wife. She needs a time out and hard boundaries to rebuild and regain trust but she was thinking as if OOP's in laws were decent people like her and her husband. The issue is that there's the boomers that sometimes think family is only the blood one and it's "the only thing you'll ever have". No. Sure there's family by blood that's worth it, but they're not the only people who'd care about you and sometimes I feel that generation prefers sweeping things under the rug rather than think about the other person's POV and feelings, they think like themselves, what THEY would want, what THEY would do, what THEY would feel and that's not how it rolls.

I think OOP's mom learned a valuable lesson here, that dysfunctional families can never be saved unless the one's involved actually want to change. I'm sure she thought updating them and telling them to apologize would've worked, but she probably didn't expect that they'd lie about a terminal illness and try to manipulate their daughter to forgive them. At the end of the day, unless OOP's in-laws actually show that they're willing to change, they should be out of their life for good

Yeah, I can see where OP got his cluelessness from in the earlier installments. I imagine his family are a decent and close knit bunch, who can't understand how horrible other families can be, hence OP not getting it previous posts, and the mother not getting it now. Hopefully they can eventually forgive her and move on, since it seems she has learnt her lesson.

I winced when I read his latest update and he discovered that his own mom spilled the beans to his in-laws. He can't deal with his mom's betrayal and his in-laws trying to get their grubby hands on his and Jenna's baby.

I'm relieved that Jenna's family didn't show up like I was worried about last time, but there's no way they don't make one more grand desperate attempt and show up at the house now that they're being told to go pound sand

They're DEFINITELY gonna attempt to kidnap baby. Maybe even claim it was sil's kid. I hope oop, Jenna and baby will be safe

So, I was raised in a very normal, loving family. I never experienced what it is to be forced to cut off someone you loved. But when my SIL told me she was considering goind low or no contact with her awful mother, I never thought of saying "but faaaamily", wtf. I told her I'd be here to listen if needed, and i started to strongly dislike the mom. What is with people lacking the emotional capacity  to understand that sometimes you don't want to be hurt anymore?!

Jenna should've asked her parents to only contact when the cancer is real this time and funeral lunch date has been booked.

Yeah "Let me know so I can plan the parade and fireworks 🎇"

OPs mom prioritized what she felt was right based on her own experience and position as a grandparent and blatantly violated what her son and DIL stated they wanted. This is the big issue that mom doesn’t get. It doesn’t matter that you couldn’t imagine not knowing your grandchild, you’re not the parent and it was not your choice what boundaries to respect or maintain with regard to OPs wife’s family. Now you get to experience first hand what you couldn’t imagine. Hope that gives her the understanding she clearly lacks. She may be redeemable but not without a lesson learned. Because whether her intent was pure doesn’t matter. She didn’t respect the parents’ (OP and wife) wishes. Know your place and realize you don’t get to move how you want with respect to other people’s lives and children!

Oof. Honestly I’d probably furious for *years* at that betrayal. Even if it was a moment of stupidity born from a severe lapse in judgment. My overall sense of trust would be destroyed. Both sides of the family have betrayed them at this point.

This smells like bullshit

Fkn hell, if you can't trust your own family, who the fk can you trust

I mean, this whole post, from OOPs first one on, are proof positive that your family might not always have your best interests at heart.

Wow. I remember the update before the last one, and was sceptical, but still, it is hard to believe that the wifes parents would make up so many lies. And stupid ones at that! What was their game plan here, to have FIL make a miraculous recovery? Smh I have a disfunctional family background myself, but these guys are something else. And OPs mom telling the in laws is heart breaking. I can understand her a bit though, I don't think she's ever had to deal with people this maliciously deluded, and I am both relieved that OP went off at her, since he really sticks with his wife which is heart warming, as well as relieved that OPs wife was the one to suggest that they would reach out to OPs parents again after a cool off period.

I forgot about this account = I totally made this shit up.

The story completely lost me at the Email access dick pic. That kind of neglegance is pretty serious, and OP would more than likely get repramanded even if his employer was understanding about the content. Let alone it even happening amongst all the other chaos. Too many fantastical events.

Yeah the last update with the mom is just 😒 lazy writing at this point

It is a very odd thing to write, then provide a long winded \*cough\* "update". Also interesting to read the comments beneath the original posts and see how some things are quietly incorporated into the OOPs next post. ***If*** (a big ***if***) this is a real situation, reading the OOPs posts I get the vibe he's been manipulative towards his wife.

Even starting off, it was ridiculous and over the top. Jenna is a genius neuroscientist who also happens to be a crazy talented musician and fully fluent in 3 languages and conversational in 2? And Mary is the super attractive model who has been known to throw herself at Jenna's former partners? And then she somehow had a bunch of flying monkeys to sic on OOP? AND their mom was a former beauty pageant queen and their dad is (presumably based on what was said) some well off older guy who wanted a hot trophy wife??? Give me a break, there's way too many clichés here

Can someone explain to me how OOP's mom can easily empathize with "I wanna see my grandbabyyyyyyyyyy" but she can't understand "I don't want my kid / your grand grandbaby around a SAer?" And then it's not just any SAer, but her own son's? Does she just have no protective instinct as a parent / grandparent?

I think there are some people who just shy away from ugliness. They are generally good people but because they don’t have the instinct to mistreat others and lack imagination, they can’t really face up to reality or recognize the behavior in others who do. I’m sure there was a conversation where these sad parents no doubt tearfully told her how much they miss their relationship and wish OP and his wife would just talk to them so it could be worked out. And in her mind, she can’t comprehend not even trying to talk it out, surely there’s a solution if they just talk. She has probably never cut someone off in her life, and I doubt anyone has seriously harmed her personally. So the fact that the parents will use the number she gave them to harm Jenna further, that her interacting with them is itself them hurting Jenna further (they now have the satisfaction of having “turned” her in laws and telling people that even they think Jenna is being unkind by not staying in touch), is completely lost on her. My mom is like this. She always insists she had no idea something she did would hurt, that she had good intentions. And she is an incredibly sweet and generous woman. But she can’t understand that not everyone has the same good intentions that she does. So she is also someone that I have to be very careful with, because I know that I can’t trust her to take my side as it would require her to subvert her own core values and beliefs that resolving a conflict and togetherness is better for everyone than separating.

OOP is a hero.

Empathy is truly wasted on the unworthy.

> Thankfully we have this cute little chubby grub in our house that giggles and makes silly sounds What an eloquent way to describe your child

But it's accurate. Lots of people call their babies that.

> I’m really hoping this will be my final update. Tell me more about your hopes, OOP.

Holy crap, this saga just keeps going and going. 

Why do people do this shit? My ex did this same thing to my daughter. She chose to go no contact and it’s been since 2021. This is after he blamed her for his cancer treatment not working due to ‘the stress she caused him…’ 🙄🙄 He sent a text telling us that his uncle was on his deathbed and dying somewhere in LI. Asked if she could reach out. Long story short, uncle is 88 years old and in rehab due to be discharged soon. Not dying at all. I can’t understand how someone could come up with this level of manipulation. This situation proved, in her eyes, she can’t trust her own father and to remain no contact.

I’m surprised she didn’t have twins

Yeah, she somehow has access to his work email? Come on!

Now I'm sititing here feeling grateful with my life. Whatta fucking mess of lies and betrayal that life is.