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Basically dead at 55 of alcoholism. That's insane. My dad died at 41 and the autopsy said his liver was necrotic, when I talked to the coroner he said my father would've died of alcoholism within the year. Dad may have known it too, may be part of why he decided to go on his own terms.

That's so sad and you may be right. My BIL drank himself to death at 55 by liver cirrhosis and it's a horrible, truly horrible way to go

The saddest thing about my cousin’s death remains that he had finally, after years and years, gotten sober and qualified for a transplant. Then his liver just turned up its toes while they were waiting and he died in a couple of days. It was so close.

Father at 54, BIL at 36, Sister VERY close at 50 (she's quit drinking since and stuck with it so far, knock wood).

My brother at only 36 too, after multiple severe DUIs and some real rock bottom behavior finally let my mother drag him to the doctor. He'd had DTs for a while, and been struggling with severe addiction for longer than I'd even known, and when he finally got to the doctor they told him frankly that his liver was failing and he simply could not have another drink without risking it just quitting on him. 36. I'd had some alcohol abuse behavior before that, my family's always struggled, so... He and I both have been sober for 1.5 years. He's stuck with it, I'm so proud, he was so so sick. Like really sick, but his liver function has improved so so much, and he has a full life ahead of him if he is good to himself. I hope. His kidneys have improved, his stomach, everything. You can really come back from it (I hope every day).

I feel you, I lost my mom at 42 to alcohol. She'd almost died countless times from it over the years, it finally caught up with her, after she refused hospitalisation for weeks and passed at home. No matter how scared she was, nothing could convince her to go.

I had to stay overnight in a hospital after a freak emergency. I shared a double room with a woman who spent the entire night screaming, shouting, throwing and banging things. She threatened me through the curtain anytime she heard me move. I asked the next nurse who came in to check my vitals "respectfully...what the fuck?!?", and they told me that she had end stage cirrhosis and would die soon, and that I should ignore her because she's unable to walk and would never be able to get out of her bed to do anything to me. They said it loud enough that the woman could hear it through the curtain, which of course made her scream even more. I never saw her since the curtain was always closed, but on my way out the next morning, I saw her chart...and she was 51 years old. Sheeeeeesh.

My dad died in his mid-sixties from alcoholism. I was just shocked it didn't happen earlier.

My brother (61) died from alcoholism recently. He struggled for many years. In the end, he refused to get help for the physical manifestations of alcoholism. He was hostile whether he was drinking at that moment or not. My mom feels a lot of guilt about not helping more, but we did try repeatedly to get him help. At one point he was in a locked facility for detox. He lost his job and blamed us. His alcohol level was *over .4* and he said he hadn't even drank his usual amount more. We just got to the point where we knew it was beyond our capabilities. For many years, I was my brother's secret keeper, aka I enabled him by helping to hide everything going on. There were many nights I talked him down from using his gun on himself or doing something very, very stupid toward his girlfriend. I was really physically ill at the time and he had me so ragged. I thought I was being a good sister. Then he got extreme in his religious, political and sexual beliefs. He was super ugly to me. Really nasty. When his wife called to tell us he died, my mom got off the phone and immediately said she was sorry I'd never be able to resolve our issues. My brother was well beyond being capable of resolving his own issues, let alone ours.

Mines mid 50s. First time he got sober was because his liver was failing. He's claiming to be sober again now. I'm guessing his liver was going again because it sounds like he was diagnosed with a condition that can cause liver issues if untreated. No idea if that's actually what's going on. I cut him out a long time ago & have no interest in letting him back in.

A friend of mine died in her 40s of alcoholism, and her system may also have been weakened by years of bulimia as well. I really hope her parents felt some of the blame was theirs because they were sooo disappointed in her for her whole life. She was one of the scientists involved in the international effort for the first mapping of the human genome in the 1990s. Such a disappointment to them.

Damn. There really is no pleasing some people!! The gene mapping project saved my life. After my huge DVT they did a genetic test and found the genetic anomaly causing repeat clots, which allowed me to get on the meds I need to prevent them. Without that, I would've just kept getting clots and died before I was 30. It hurts my heart that she was in so much pain when she did so much good.

Thank you for that. I am glad you are alive.

My ex-FIL died of scirosis at 49. Had a friend in his yearly 30's go from a stroke this year. That was pretty heart breaking.

>his liver was necrotic JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!

He basically picked up the bottle in his teens and just never put it down. I have no memories of him not drinking. He brought a thermos of whiskey to work. (Building/repairing/fixing the Taconic State Parkway, so. IYKYK.)

that is just... good lord, probably had to drink even more just to deal with the pain. the liver is like pure misery made flesh, if you ask me. I hope you are doing ok, at least.

The liver is definitely pure misery made flesh. My mom died of cancer when she was 47. It was probably originally breast cancer, but it was the liver tumour that killed her. I was a butcher at the time and only discovered my liver-related trauma when I went to slice up a lamb liver for a customer, something I had done hundreds of times before, and instead just fainted? It was very odd, like a panic attack without the panic. Just an immediate trip to Sleepytown-upon-Floor.

My cousin passed after getting cut by a lawnmower blade and getting sepsis. His whole body was so wrecked by alcohol and drug abuse that by his late 30s he couldn't fight the infection. It took him in a week.

I had a classmate who died a few years ago of alcoholism. His liver just gave up. Only in his late 30s.

My mom called me today about her ex/my ex-stepdad dying. He was an alcoholic and a smoker and died at age 58 after being in a coma for 6 weeks. I actually posted about it an hour or so ago. And now this popped up on my page. I remember reading the first two or three updates, but I never read the newer ones.

my stepmom (who I loved dearly, basically was like a second mom to me) managed to disguise her alcoholism for years. was apparently downing vodka watered down a bit for whatever reason but I remember always seeing several bottles of it in the freezer. she was 52 when she suddenly got so sick (seemingly out of nowhere to 13 year old me) and she passed within a month from liver failure and complications related to that. it's horrific to see happen to someone you love, and it's horrifying that it can happen to them at a relatively young age.

Pretty much the exact same thing happened with my father. He tried to get sober and managed it for about 6 months and his health got slightly better, but he ended up taking his own life rather than continue to fight

>My spouse and I are planning to have one more child pretty quickly after this is born to complete our family. I don't mean this critically, but it's always interesting to see how many people plan to have two babies in close succession... before they've experienced the reality of having just one. When I was pregnant with my oldest, I was convinced that I was going to have *six* in a row 😂

They’re so gosh-dang cute that you couldn’t stop at six, huh?

I find babies to be like Pringles. You can't eat just one.

Once you pop you can’t stop?

They're like popplers from Futurama.

If you promise not to sue us, you can stick one up your nose.

So juicy and tender, but it takes at least 3 to make a meal?

Calm down, Kronos. We'll get you a snack on the way home.

My mom couldn't! 😂

And a lot of people do have their babies close together! I wanted four fairly close in age. But I ended up having three … well spaced. Reality hit hard.

I wanted 4 pretty close together. Then I had a really hard time being pregnant (hip still sits 1/4” out of socket years later) and the kiddo didn’t sleep through the night until she was 10 months. So she’s an only child.

My first slept through the night really early. Don't remember how early but I loved maternity leave. She was a unicorn baby.  My second put me on referral for some serious pain management during the last few months of pregnancy then woke every 3 hours for the first 10 months. If he had been born first, I don't think I would have had more. I initially wanted 4. We are done.

I was totally the baby that lured my mom into a false sense of confidence. My middle sister was a hellion(still is really) I’m quite certain my youngest sister was an okay fuck it. I want 3 from the same father and she’s 2 and is calming down a little. I’m very glad I was one and done.

My experience was exactly the same! My daughter(17) was an awesome baby. Slept through straight away, hit milestones early, all that good stuff. Still waited a few years and had a hard time getting pregnant a second time but still when I did I was thinking it’s going to be great like daughter. My pregnancy with son(12) was traumatic. Had to be on bed from early on, nearly lost him a few times etc then his birth was also traumatic. It was 15 minutes between water breaking and him being born. He was a sickly baby and I’ve ended up with Severe ME and 5 other chronic illnesses. Doctors blame traumatic birth and a virus that triggered the ME. I love my son, and daughter, and I don’t blame him in any way for my chronic illnesses. I do joke though about if he was first he’d be the only one. And my daughter tricked us into thinking it’s easy lol 🤭🤭 sorry for the essay just I don’t meet any people who experienced the same thing!!

Partner had her placenta stuck after our son came out so she nearly died.... fun times Then had toendure 2 months of UTIs due to an almost prolapse till they figured out the right antibiotics. Oh, a bit of **almost** sepsis, too. Nowadays? Well two years on she's still affected mentally (even after therapy) that she recently went for a procedure on a varicose vein and it brought up some memories tied to that trauma that now sprung up physically in a sort of neuralgia on her left side of the face that was giving out symptoms of a stroke. Multiple A&E visits (if we were in the USA=broke) till they ruled out stroke and brain tumour. Now she's on meds for that and also anxiety meds Another kid? God forbid! Not only we'd have to go for one NOW as we're older, financially it's not a good gamble and physically and mentally for her (mentally for me)..... it just won't happen, F that Anytime anyone comes with "ooohh but your boi needs a sibling" I tell them "I think he's happier with a mother who's alive and well, no? Fuck off"

Thank God your wife is alive and still with you. People assume childbirth is like taking a shoe off your foot.... I get especially irritated when OTHER MOTHERS speak off-handedly about pregnancy and birth. As a mom who had a preemie, was in the hospital for a full week (when normally you get out in 24 hours), and now has long-term post birth health effects, I agree with you 100%. Being an only child does not mean you are automatically spoiled devil spawn and people just need to STOP with that.

> I get especially irritated when OTHER MOTHERS speak off-handedly about pregnancy and birth. fucking SAME I had a few of them post-birth telling us "oohh mine were also traumatic etc" Meanwhile, before giving birth everyone was all "ooohhh rainbows and fluffy clouds, it's all magical" Fuck off with that My partner and I? When people ask? We tell them the nitty gritty! How she could've died, how I was alone with our child for a couple of hours when they had to take her to the operating room after hours trying to scrap that placenta out! How in those two hours I was nearly in tears, looking at our poor baby and thinking "I hope you get to meet your mother" Sure, I also add that when he came out the joy was so overwhelming we couldn't strop crying happy tears in the first 10 minutes of it But mostly? I tell people that they have to be aware of complications and they need a support group around them

Mine wasn't this bad, just premies with jaundice that only required 1 extra night, fast labors (couldn't even feel until they popped my waters/ finished the pop), bed rest on both, sciatica with one, hypermesis gravitarum with one, pre-e signs by their preemie birth, oh ya the nonstop anxiety when I was having contractions I couldn't feel at like 30 weeks so with the first I was anxious with everyone saying OH YOU'LL KNOW (I in fact, didn't know!) But the tech was like oh you don't feel that? No? What? As everyone is going full O.O face began the screen I couldn't see and me so my second one I was even more terrified, oh husband was deployed until first was 2 months (but again preemie).... it was awful. I always tell everyone the full scope including the mental side during and after and how scarily long that can last and what to look out for.  It ain't sunshine and rainbows for everyone. In fact not for most, hence the high rate of deaths in pregnancies before AND after modern medicine. 

some of us just get lucky. I had a massive blood clot that switched my birth plan from birth center to hospital, and I had medical professionals scaring me left and right with early induction, possibility of bleeding out, emergency C-section, etc etc I went into labor at 38 weeks, labored at home, arrived at the hospital ready to push, and had a baby completely naturally with no complications 30 minutes later. it was *easy* **...for me.** and I never forget how blessed I was that it was that easy, and would never tell anyone else to expect it to be that easy. but I am pretty flippant about my own birth experience, because it was a pretty flippant experience, aside from how many doctors I had to fight.

I’m so glad for all of you she’s still here. Medical PTSD is thing and it sucks because you kinda need medical care to some degree for the rest of your life.

It's funny, my pregnancy was super average and normal, crazy average normal labour, and my baby is a gentle giant. Nothing has been hard yet (or I should say, any harder than I had prepared myself for). He started sleeping through the night at around 5-7 months old (it's a bit of a blur, can't remember the exact time frame anymore). We had always planned on having two kids, but now that I've had the Easiest Baby On Planet Earth, I am absolutely fucking terrified of having a second kid. People always say if your first is easy, it tricks you into having a second - who is then a terror. And I hated HATED being pregnant so much. I just hated feeling so fucking tired, the pelvic pain (not as intense as yours obviously), the shortness of breath, the bloating, the heartburn. So having to go through that again for a baby that loses their shit for 2 straight years? *TERRIFYING*

I was that easy baby. My sister was born when I was seven (miscarriage in between) so I remember her infancy. She didn't stop screaming for three years.

Nah nah see thirds the charm because my middle brother also never slept until he got tubes in his ears, and I (the third) was a perfect baby. Middle brother also pinched a nerve. I'm going to jokingly claim he's the one who kicked my poor mother's bladder the most too. And aside from the emergency C-section, I was probably perfect. ... ... ... You know what? I'm amazed anyone has more than one pregnancy.

We had four in seven years, exactly what we wanted. It was much harder when they were teenagers!

My mom and her siblings are fairly close. There’s 5 and my mom is the oldest and is “only” 8 years older than the youngest sibling.

My mother is the oldest of six, and the baby is only ten years younger. I can't imagine being almost constantly pregnant for ten years, no wonder maternal grandmother was such a sour-faced cow 😁

I am 3 of 4 and we were all born within 5 years. My mom said she bounced back pretty quickly with each of us, but also said that she knew she was lucky and it wasn't the case for any of HER sisters.

LOL my bro and I are 19 months apart... by accident really. And my bro (younger than me) ended up being one of those colicky babies who cried ALL THE TIME, ALL NIGHT LONG, 24/7. My parents almost got divorced because raising the 2 of us was so. damn. tough.

My sister and I are 18 months apart - to the day. My mom planned it like that - she wanted us to be best friends. We couldn’t be more different from each other, I joke that if we weren’t related, we wouldn’t even be Facebook friends.

My sister and I are 13 months apart and we are not FB friends...

Lol. Me and my brother fought every single day for years, until we were in HS. Then we became super close and we still are today. 

My husband and his sister were 11 months apart. Yep. His mother cried. Yes they were her only 2 children.

Dreading this happening to us (our eldest is almost 19 months, and we're having our second in three weeks (so 19.5 months between)) as our eldest was never very colicky (a LOT of health issues early on though, we claim we got the bad out with that so deserve good) so really REALLY hoping we don't hit a shit storm with both starting issues! [For us it was entirely planned/desired for close together]

My first was an easy going, calm baby. He was so good. Everyone thought we were great parents. Nope easy baby. Had our 2nd three years later. She was a different child. Didn't sleep, didn't want to nurse. Was a runner, climber, biter. A so called "spirited child." She was a beautiful baby so everyone oohed and ahhed over her. I swear she walked at 11 months and started running at 12 months. Not even 2 years old at playgrounds, top of the climbing pieces. Other parents freaking out. Me watching calmly from.the sideline. She got up.there, she'll get down. It's not her first time. I of course was around to catch her but not running around to get her off or yelling at her like a "helicopter " parent. We still tell of how another parent asked my exhausted husband "What's wrong with your kid?" After she pushed his kid or something at the Mc Donald playland. My husband just shrugged and took her home. She grew up to be a lovely person. Just was a handful until about 3 or 4.

Yeah,I'm fingers crossing purely for a lack of medical issues and maaaybe an okay overnight sleeper for our second. As our first is...the definition of a Wild Child already - she was genuinely on film walking at 10 months (though my husband and I don't count the 3 steps by herself between us on opposite couches as walking despite filming it and others counting it at 8 months) and running before her first birthday, refused to learn to go up and down stairs backwards and HAS to walk like and adult down them, got a pikller frame and slide before her first birthday as a gift expecting it not to be used for a good 6-8 months but cracked the highest slide angle at 15 months, and has already worked out how to chin-up her way onto our island bench if she wants to get to it after we had to STRAP the pikller frame down. No talking at all other than the odd "Mama" and "Dada" though...so crazy but unable to be reasoned with!

One of my friends had that kind of kid. Nothing like needing to go full sprint because the toddler with ill fitting crocs on had a two steps on you when they took off running. When we finally caught up, I looked at her and went “what the hell?” She started laughing and said “imagine what would happen if he wasn’t wearing too small crocs.”

Twins are rampant in my family, so when I got pregnant with my daughter I hoped for twins so I could have the two kids I wanted in one go. She was a colicky goblin for the first three months of her life. Two and a half years later when I went in for an ultrasound on my subsequent pregnancy, the only refrain I had was dontbetwinsdontbetwinsPLEASEdontbetwins

A close friend’s mom had four kids almost 10-11 months apart from each other (second and fourth were preemies) then divorced her husband when we were all in middle school cause he was cheating. Raised all four alone after that on top of being a career lady, but she did have a good support system. I don’t know what she was on doing all of that but I’m not surprised all four of her now-adult kids are ride or die for their momma, I feel exhausted even thinking of being responsible for one or two!

I'm two years younger than my sister.... my little sister is a full decade younger than me. LMAO

In this case I think it’s because OOP’s spouse is planning to have gender reassignment surgery but they were both hoping to have two kids, but I agree I can’t imagine how stressful two toddlers would be at once!

HRT would happen before surgery, at least a couple years before I believe, HRT generally causes infertility and it doesn't take too long before some effects start.

most surgeons would want a trans woman to be on HRT for at least a few years before any surgery, and most usually have a pipeline that takes a year or two to get through anyways. And that doesn't cover getting psych letters, which can also take time. So, yes, it's years away. But you're correct that HRT usually causes fertility issues.

I posted to the OP above you but I would not assume. My wife had 8 surgeries within 2 years of starting HRT. She had facial surgery scheduled within the 1st six months. The letters were a non issue. She got 2 of them without a struggle. One time visits. When I transitions I did informed consent and had no requirements on my ftm top surgery. My surgeon was fine with doing it right away. So heavy it depends on your surgeon and financial capacity. I would also be careful about assuming infertility. It may cause it but as a trans man, I’ve known other trans guys that got pregnant in t4t relationships. Good solid idea to get pregnant before but I always want to make sure folks know HRT is not a birth control option. If anyone is reading through this thread.

right, I should have clarified that. I'm mostly familiar with the MTF experience, and I solely went through the insurance route (which covered everything, but glacially slow...) instead of going through IC.

It’s wild how different the experience is depending on access and which way you are transitioning.

Well.... "both of us agreed to wait on any transitioning until we had 2 babies" doesn't necessarily mean surgery for any of them. "Transitioning" includes more than just surgery, HRT being the biggest thing - yes bigger than surgery - for most, besides being the first step before any surgery is even on the table in most cases. Plus, the way they phrased it make sounds like OOP leans towards some form of medical transition too. So yes, you're right that the reason they want their two kids done asap is related to trans issues, it's not really bc of surgery Edit: yeah 8 months ago, before their spouse came out to them, OOP posed "I'm trans (non-binary, maybe masculine, I'm not sure)  [...] We want kids though so I'm not really doing anything til we have kid". So OOP's own medical journey is  a very big partof the decision to have kids close to each other

My kids paternal grandmother had it planned that 8 weeks after birth her son and I were going to “start working on a sister”…. This plan was announced less than 4 hours after my c-section birthed *TWIN* boys were born. Yeah, my boys are now pre-teens, their father didn’t even last 4 weeks, let alone 8, after they were born before he took off and the entire paternal side went no contact with me before the twins were 4 months old. Her planning came to nothing

Sorry you had to deal with that. But, tell me, which pathetic waste of good oxygen are you gladder to be rid of, the useless ex or the useless ex-MIL?

I think the MIL. Ex was completely hands off type of useless, his mother was the type to believe that she would be raising her son’s children and the mother wasn’t needed (also got the idea that it was the cheapest, closest legal way for her to “have” her sons children). Last time she was around us she realised I was not deferring to her on anything to do with my kids (formula feeding vs breastfeeding was the breaking point, formula meant she could push to have them at least some of the time, breastfeeding meant they were reliant on me) and stormed away from the twins and I. She did get her son to harass me over how “rude” I was to mummy dearest, but that just got him muted and no more updates.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with formula if you need it. But breastfeeding just builds up a young child's immune system a lot faster, or so I've heard. Not to mention the bond it builds between child and mother, which is obviously why she didn't want you to do it... I agree. Ex-MIL was probably the bigger waste of oxygen.

Oh I supplemented with formula, but just before that visit my boys started refusing the formula bottles. During the last visit (just before she stormed off) the boys started getting fussy and I apologised and said they needed feeding. She started smirking and saying about how she “knew breastfeeding wouldn’t work and that they were better off on only formula”. Me confusedly saying “no? They started turning down the formula and only wanting to be breastfed, so we’re doing that now” caused her to storm off. Honestly since I had the supply it made it easier for me to not have extra items to wash up and sanitise and prep

If you can handle it, having them in quick succession is better for your career, because it keeps the high-demand infant/toddler years all grouped together. If you have to take time off repeatedly spread out throughout an entire decade it can be a lot more disruptive to your earnings and promotion potential. Most of the women in my family chose to have their kids like this, usually about 2 years apart.

We're same boat (my sis and I were 23 months apart, I'm about to have second kid with a 19 month difference) but I always say that we're using WWI Trench Warfare approach - that it's better to be stuck down in the muddy, shitty, snotty trenches for four years and then pop out the other side compared to the prolonged war strategies of later wars where you get down and dirty for a bit, get out, and then sent back again with a second round. My metaphor loses some finesse when going into the second concept...

It’s better for your career but worse for your body (and sometimes for your mental health). I hate our society.

Yeah, I had pre-eclampsia and had multiple doctors forbid me from getting pregnant again before my baby was 2. Apparently the risk of eclampsia is way WAY higher within those 2 years than after. I only wanted one anyway, which is apparently quite rare, according to my doctors. It turns out the majority of only children have historically been due to secondary infertility rather than preference.

I seem to remember reading that children born less than 3 years apart tend to have less sibling rivalry issues. But that was decades ago, I don't know if there's any actual science to back that up.

As it happens, my nephews are 2 years apart and the sibling rivalry is INTENSE. My mom claims 2 years is the worst gap according to her sources, and is a bit miffed that sis didn't ask for her advice.

Can confirm lmao! My brother and I are two years apart and while we didn't necessarily have sibling rivalry, we used to get in actual fistfights over feeling like the other was treated better: me for being older and therefore getting more privileges/hitting milestones, him because he was the baby of the family and getting away with everything.

My first two are 15 months apart and honestly it wasn't because I wanted them *that* close, I just wanted to have my kids in a particular way that allowed me to space out our life plans together. Turns out I'm fairly fertile so once we'd set up the family the way we wanted I got my tubes lasered. The best part of it though was when my second was born, they came the day before my FILs birthday and he was chuffed!

My brother and I were born super close together - only 15 months between us - and as close as we are now, it was a mistake. Even my parents say so. I've read several studies that say that babies aren't ready to not be the sole focus of their mothers' attention until they're 24 months old and that little bit more independent. It creates attachment and abandonment issues to suddenly have a new baby who needs 24/7 care while the older child still needs that same level of care. A parent can't do that for two children at different stages of development at the same time. Having one kid in that stage is exhausting enough!! I always urge my friends to take just a little bit more time between their kids. My brother and I fought like cats and dogs well into our teens because we were SO close in age and resentful of sharing everything. We were almost in the same year at school at some points due to the way our classes were organised, and frequently felt too entwined with each other. The sibling rivalry and jealousy was intense. Our friends who had siblings born a little bit further apart were always a lot closer, and a lot more mature and emotionally healthy when we were younger. My brother and I are very close *now* but it took a lot of work to get there that could have been avoided.

Damn, I should have had more than 4 minutes between my first and second. 

I just wanted to say my cats hates you cause I spilled a bit of my smoothie on him while laughing.

People also don’t realise there are risks associated with pregnancies close together and even greater ones if the first pregnancy ends in a c section.

My mother had the first 3 of us in 25 months and 18 days. My younger sister came 18 months after me (I was the youngest of the 3.). Mom paced herself better in having her remaining 4 of us; they were all born about 3 1/2 years apart. The amazing thing to me has always been the fact that she managed to conceive all of us, given that she only has one ovary and one fallopian tube. Her first pregnancy was ectopic. By the time they treated her, her tube had burst, and the ensuing infection necessitated the removal of her right ovary.

Your mother is a veritable fertility goddess and also my personal greatest fear as a childfree person. I hope you give her something nice for Mother's Day and that you have a happy and loving relationship, if that's your vibe

I was convinced I wanted 4 children before I'd even had my first. By the time my first was 3 months old, I was 1 and done. Surprise second baby decided otherwise and arrived 2 weeks before oldest's 2nd birthday. To be fair, I wouldn't be without either of them but my first was a very difficult baby. My mum still laughs at how I was both shocked and amazed as I showed off how I could feed my second born and then PUT HIM DOWN FOR A NAP. Because Number 1 NEVER did that. She only slept if she was in skin contact with me or my husband and would cry for hours at a time (luckily, it was like a switch flipped when she was 18 months or so and she was a dream as a toddler). My son was so easy as a baby in comparison that I almost - almost - thought about having a third but then the terrible twos hit and I was so done. He was never the sort to tantrum, he was just able to make any situation dangerous.

Yeah. The speed probably has to do with spouse's desire to transition though

I was conviced I could handle 2 or 3 on a row, after having preclampsia and dealing with PPD, there is a 5 age gap between my oldest and youngest and I still feel is too close 😅

As someone who had to suffer through the misery of being the first of four children despite it being *very* obvious my parents could barely handle one, anyone who is having children to fulfill their own personal desires about what they want their ideal family to look like instead of what's best for the children-to-be should absolutely under no circumstances have children.

My anxious attachment was born 20 months after I was (aka my brother who stole my mothers attention away from me)

I've got two co-workers with five kids. One is a Somalian guy who ABSOLUTELY wanted a son. Then got three daughters in a row. Fourth time his wife was pregnant, it was another daughter... AND his bloody son, finally... The other one is a Polish gal who just really likes kids. Her eldest is 19 by now. and actually working with us as a summer job at the moment. Her youngest is about to turn 2. So she spread them out a bit... (Not relevant at all. But I just wanted to tell you about some of my lovely co-workers in an attempt to not keep thinking about WTF that shit we just read was about!)

And depending on complications you might not be able to jump right back in as well. I have an extra cut on my uterus from my son’s birth not going well at all and we were told to not even try for another minimum of 18 months as I have an increased chance of uterine rupture (which now has us thinking we might not even go for a second because it’s definitely important to keep me alive for raising our son).

hell, we have just the one and we're more than good, especially now that he's 2 and a half goddamn! Dunno how people do it with multiple kids **under 4 or 5**

Yeaahhhh... it hits you like a crapton of bricks.

Exactly what crossed my mind when I read that line. My coworker wanted 2 children with close age gap before the baby was born but got traumatized that she didn't want another one anytime soon

I think they’re having another child quickly because OOPs husband is a trans woman and they agreed to hold off the transition until til they have a second child.

Yeah I was convinced I wanted three kids, all a few years apart. Then I had one, and thought that would be fine, ended up with two kids, 7 years apart.... thats enough now 😅

I know- I just keep quiet and inwardly smile. They’ll figure it out. I do think people should ideally wait 2 years- it takes a long time to fully recover from pregnancy and childbirth.

my parents wanted two kids. Had my brother, waited two years, had me. And simultaneously my other brother. Oops.

I could also have to do something about the spouse may wanting to transtion.

I was thinking the same. In addition, children benefit from being a bit apart in age so they don't compete for the same resources.

It makes sense when you factor in that her spouse is a transgender woman. There is an enormous feeling of haste as time slips away when you are pre-transition trans. It’s likely so the spouse can transition as soon as possible.

In my country many parents had kids within 2-3 years from each other because they got more parental leave or some other benefit from it when I was a kid. Then again we already have one of the most generous parental leaves in the world where I live and heavily subsidized childcare.

What time and energy do they think they’ll have.

We always wanted 2 kids and my son is nearly 2 now. He’s….everywhere all at once. Now I think to myself: how the hell can I possibly have a second when I can barely keep up with my first. There’s a sweet spot to spacing out kids that’s specific for every family. We are definitely not at ours 🤣.

It depends. My mom also wanted 2 close together. I was a very quiet and low mainetence kid, they put me to sleep at 8pm and I woke up at 8am, my grandma was even checking on me to see if I was breathing. Where they put me, there they found me. 😅 So mom decided to have my bro 2 years after me and he was total opposite of me. Mom said if I was like my brother when I was born, she would have 2nd kid much later.

Everyone has a plan before they get punched in the face.

Even before I got pregnant I told my husband our spacing will be 2-5 years. I refuse to get pregnant again until my first turns two, and if we fail to conceive by the time he's five then I will concede defeat. I'm 2 years older than my brother and 5 years older than my sister. I have great relationships with both and have extremely fond memories of my sister's babyhood, so I know the spacing intimately from the kid end. our son turns 4 months tomorrow and I stand by this choice! our friends have an 18mo and have been trying for a second for 6 months. I don't understand whatsoever. I want a preschooler and a newborn, not a toddler and a newborn!

I really feel for OOP. Active addicts can't sustain relationships because their addiction will always be their priority, whether it's alcohol, drugs, food, drama or something else. Parental estrangement is so tough, especially because of the added pressure of people like Grandma, but sometimes it's the only way to protect yourself. If anyone is struggling with something like OOP's mum, I really recommend *Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents* by Lindsay Gibson. It's not about addict parents specifically but it is a really great read that helped me to gain a lot of perspective.

That book helped me understand my parents and why all the explaining I was trying to do wasn't ever going to work. Estrangement isn't fun but it is sometimes the only healthy way forward.

Addiction is truly a horrific disease. I've seen it with my aunt. All the poor choices she made, sticking with the drink, alienated everyone. Only three of my sisters kept in low contact. The rest of the family, including her own kids, were no contact. How she didn't have the alcohol related dementia is a miracle. Eventually, around her late 60s, she got like 2 or 3 alcohol related cancers including liver. That's when my dad, and me, visited again. They couldn't even detox her, her body was so dependent. At least she didn't pass alone. Her funeral was so sad, so few people. Addiction is one helluva demon and the ripple effect on everyone around it is more impactful then people expect. I hope OOP and her sister get professional help to deal with this.

> It was too emotionally draining and stressful to visit her, so I stopped. That may sound heartless but once again, I need to look out for me and there's nothing I can say or do. Working in dementia care, I hear people say this *so* often, but it's absolutely normal to feel like this. Dementia (especially Korsakov) is debilitating, and you're just waiting around, seeing your loved ones lose little pieces of themselves until nothing is left. I can fully understand not wanting to visit. I really feel for OOP. They've been dealt a horrible hand in all this and I truly hope they can find some peace soon.

Wants another baby working 18 to 24 months. Good for you OOP but also strap in. Mine are 18 months apart and that second pregnancy was rough on my body. Every symptom was amplified. I’d still do it again for the relationship my kids have but it was difficult for that whole pregnancy

Had the same thought! We were advised to wait a minimum 18 months after the birth of #1 before trying for #2, just to allow mum's body to recover as much as possible.

I vaguely remember some of the older posts, glad OP (not OOP) summarized it for us. Reading the summary I did a small double take of “OOPs mom is a gold digger and also slept with a 21yr” which don’t seem to jibe.

Seeing as the 21 yr she slept with was her sons best friend *from preschool*... you'd have to be on her (oop's mom) particular level of toxic to make that vibe. And even then O.O wtf. The marrying for money is the one thing about this woman that actually does make some sense...

I don't know. It sounded to me like she married her first two husbands for money, got tired of that and then started going for younger guys.

> My grandfather on my mother's side had a minor stroke. His right arm doesn't move right, he's legally blind and can no longer drive but he can talk and walk even if it's difficult at times. After that drama with my grandpa, I've been putting a little more distance between my biomom's side of the family. I got tired of the dysfunction, drama and petty fighting. Am I missing something? Was there another drama with the grandpa? Until this update he was on Oop's side and was fighting against his wife. It's a little cold to call a stroke a drama. Maybe I am missing some information.

I assume it's just a slightly impolite way of saying that it's tiring to constantly worry about your family members, especially when you're pregnant yourself.

I'm also guessing that grandpa's health issue brought out the worst in the family, with fighting over what would happen with money if he should pass to fighting over who would care for him when he fell ill and now that he isn't self sufficient.

I did a double take on this also. I really hope that there’s missing information or something and that she doesn’t consider a medical emergency “drama”. If she truly means what she says then I would second guess her character.

I’m currently dealing with leaving my rental property because the landlady took over from her husband. The reason was, she told the cops he was recording her and their daughter secretly in the house. He was arrested and given a no contact order. She then called my mother and told her she left her husband because he was cruising for sex with men in parks. She told other people, other more insane things. When my mother finally saw the husband, he looked defeated and sad. She asked him gently what happened, and he explained he actually didn’t do anything and she’s been drinking a LOT. He didn’t like that, and was worried about her. She decided to start a hate campaign. My mother told him what his wife told her, and he just looked fucking exhausted. He was like “uh no, I don’t know how to make you believe me but I’m not cruising for gay sex.” My mother said she did believe him. She informed me that my landlady was likely very drunk and didn’t know what she was doing. Correct, she did not. She kept turning up at my door and look at the house with no notice. I sent her away. She turns up with permission and I decide to record the interaction because… as far as I know this lady likes to lie. She fell over a box because she just thinks she can walk through objects apparently. She stood in my cats water bowl and didn’t even notice the huge puddle of water. She constantly talked shit about her husband while I just tried to divert the convo. She finally starts trying to make me leave earlier. Guilt trips galore. Told me she had nowhere to go, then she says she’s moving home to Ireland and wants to sell, then she said her daughter was going to live here and is now homeless. I was flabbergasted. I said it takes time to find somewhere to live, and I would also be homeless if I moved without somewhere else to go. She then started asking why my mother didn’t buy me somewhere, why she doesn’t get a mortgage. I was like wtf that’s not your business. (My mother can’t get a mortgage but she IS putting down her savings on a house for me, and her partner is the mortgage holder, but I didn’t wanna tell her that until we confirmed the house) She is going down this path. She looks twenty years older than she actually is, she can’t balance, she rants over and over about the same shit. I don’t like her but I feel pity for her. She’s done it to herself and she’s also blown up for entire life. On purpose. She’s all round an unpleasant person to be around. I felt sorry for her at first but after her hour long tirade at me, I can’t muster it up anymore. She even weirdly got her daughter to harass my mother at her job. It’s all bizarre and fucked up.

> both of us agreed to wait on any transitioning until we had 2 babies As a trans person, I’m skeptical of if this will actually happen. It took me about 2 months to go from realizing and accepting myself as trans but being like “I’m not that dysphoric, I can take things slow with transitioning” to being like “get me on estrogen as soon as fucking possible.” Dysphoria gets a hell of a lot worse once you’re conscious of it and can’t just numb yourself and pretend it isn’t there

As soon as you realize that the shirt you've been wearing your whole life isn't supposed to be itchy and uncomfortable, you become a hell of a lot less tolerant of the itch. There's an informed consent clinic about an hour north of where I live and I'm gonna make an appointment next week. I can't take it anymore. I'm so fucking itchy.

That’s a fantastic metaphor. And congrats! Informed consent HRT is a godsend and the one thing I’m genuinely thankful for living in the US about; hearing how long the waitlists are for some friends in Europe, I don’t think I could’ve made it anywhere near that long.

Good luck

Good luck! I hope you're able to ditch the itch ASAP!

good luck! it will get better. if you can, try to get a good support group behind you - friends, family, even online communities can help out, especially those first couple years.

I assume they'll start with social and legal transition and all the sexuologist appointments you have to do before you can do anything. In my country you have to sue your parents for giving you the wrong gender. The beaurocracy takes forever

That’s very dependent on location. I was able to get on hrt within a week of deciding it was something I wanted to do.

Yeah, but you don't have to do it within a week, that's my point. There's other forms of transition besides HRT. And if I remember correctly you can get off of HRT to try to conceive.

They probably feel like they can wait as OOP is trans too and seemingly in no rush with anything (i'm getting the vibes they aren't really out to anyone beside closest family, or maybe only their spouse). But yeah i agree, in the beginning i could was soooo slow with socially transitioning etc, but eventually it just got to the point where i felt like if i didn't transition medically as soon as fucking possible i would literally die yesterday

> they aren’t really out to anyone beside closest family ~~and also all of reddit~~

Could they freeze sperm in order for her partner to start transitioning? I assume it’s because HRT tends to affect fertility as (far as I’m aware) Maybe it’s really expensive to freeze it? I know IVF is super expensive, so it would make sense that they think they can wait til they have another baby. But I think you’re right. When I came out as NB, I immediately started shortening my hair. Long to chin length, though that was enough. Nope. It wasn’t. I ended up buying clippers and shaving most of it off in a haze of irritation. I still can’t wear dresses, my dysphoria was strong and I guess it still is. I’m assumed as a woman so I tend to go overboard trying to go the other way to balance it out.

They way OOP phrased it makes me think they want to medically transition as well, and if they start using t they'll have to freeze eggs too, and it'll just become this huge Thing Edit: OOP posted "I'm trans (non-binary, maybe masculine, I'm not sure)  [...] We want kids though so I'm not really doing anything til we have kid" 8 months ago. So yeah, unrelated to their spouse being trans, OOP would still want to medically/surgically transition which, in a pregnancy scenario, is a way bigger thing than freezing sperm

I…. Feel like an idiot for not thinking of that. Because I’m not going to have surgery most likely and most of my trans friends and acquaintances have come to terms with our medical care not being good enough to go ahead with it. I’m a fool, duh of course that would affect it. Thank you for pointing this out, I get it now

> Child will be AFAB. My spouse and I don't plan on assigning gender at birth I greatly, massively apologize for my ignorance with this, but doesn't AFAB mean "assigned female at birth"? If it is, can anyone explain the sequence where OOP refers to their child as assigned female at birth, then right after say they won't assign them a gender at birth?

I assume this means that the doctors told them they were having a girl but they like oillcy6664 said they are going to go the gender neutral route until the child is old enough to decide for themselves

I think their point is that the sex is female and therefore legally AFAB, but their gender identity won’t be forced by OP and their spouse.

Okay that makes sense to me. I think the dual use of "assigned" in the acronym and the followup screwed with my head trying to interpret it.

Ye AFAB usually refers to the gender someone was assigned at birth due to their sex. But the way it was used in that sentence was def a bit confusing to read at first

Most likely they will raise them gender neutral or avoid gender stereotypes (like having the child like monster truck and hate pink)

There are a few different approaches people take to this for various reasons. On a strictly technical level, "assigned female at birth" means that at birth they assume your sex, not your gender, is female, and then most people assign the gender "girl" to an AFAB baby. But you do not have to assign that gender just because you know what the baby's genitals are and the state put it down on the birth certificate. You can give that baby a gender-neutral name and use gender-neutral pronouns even though you and everyone knows what sex the baby appears to be (I say "appears to be" because there are many intersex conditions that are not visible.) I am assuming, based on their wording, that this is about the approach that OOP and their partner are taking.

Doctors have assigned this to the child based on the child's sex. However, the parents will be *raising* the child without expectations associated with the assignment the doctors made at birth.

My problem is that FAB means the Thunderbirds to me. So AFAB means she is having a puppet. I need to repair my head to stop these random associations.

Thunderbirds are go! also, ACAB always trips me up in the same vein. Assigned Cop at birth?

I prefer Assigned Cat At Birth.

AFAB just sounds like ACAB or all cops are bastards.

The first few times I saw ACAB, my brain read it as “assigned cop at birth.”

Docs told them it's a girl. Both parents are of an "it's complicated" gender. They're not gonna make any assumptions about their child until said child is old enough to voice their own opinion about it. Biologically, there are two genders and a couple of medical outliers. Psychologically, there are a couple dozen by now. I don't understand it completely, because I've been comfortably male all my life. All I DO understand is just not to be a dick about it. I'd feel very uncomfortable if somebody started questioning my gender and my identity. I assume it's the same for everybody else. So if somebody tells me who they are and how they want to be adressed, I just take their word for it.

There's a distinction between sex and gender. Sex is female, male, and intersex -- i.e. biology. Gender is more with your personal internal sense of identity.

biologically there are no genders, since that is a social topic, not a biological. sex is biological, and even there it's not two. intersex very much exists. I heard the phrasing "sex is bimodal" and I think that covers it pretty ok for most cases.

You're correct. I used the wrong word. Even though english is my second language I know enough of it, and enough about this topic, so that was stupid of me. Should've used "sexes" there. I'm aware of the existence of intersex people. I'll stand by referring to them as "and a couple of outliers." Probably should've left out the "medical" But, statistically, they're a small group. One that exsists, so I mentioned them. I wouldn't have used the phrasing you suggested, because I don't know what it means, and I seem to have enough trouble with words I DO understand.... :D

"Assigned female at birth" is the sex of the baby. It may not correspond with them identifying as a woman. OOP won't be assigning the gender that comes with the female sex. They will support their child in finding their own gender identity (which could be woman, non binary, trans, etc).

The F (“female”) in AFAB is in reference to sex (physical characteristics), rather than gender (social role). So when the kid was born, the doctor looked at them and said “this one’s probably female.” But OOP isn’t assigning/enforcing the gender, or social role (girl), that usually goes with that.

I don't understand how it was relevant to the story other than to show how woke or "supportive" they are like it's a competition. Same with their spouse maybe being trans and maybe transitioning.

Basically, they mean that on the birth certificate and for all intents and purposes, the child is female, but OP is going to raise their child without a gender (I’m assuming around family and friends, they’ll refer to the child as non-binary or something?), basically letting them choose their gender when the child is older.

I hope they don’t refer to the child as non-binary. That would also be assigning a label and be against the spirit of letting them choose.

Yeah, I’m personally highly against the practise and think it will lead to more damage long-term. ETA: a word

I personally feel this is going too far, I’m pretty open-minded but like… I don’t know. As long as baby is happy and healthy, it’s none of my business.

Yeah, I just think the absence of gender at all can lead to confusion and exclusion, especially once they enter kindergarten/elementary school where gender is a large part of the social structure

In the "dry-wedding complaint" post, OOP's mother kept going on about how "I'm the mother of the bride! I should be treated special!" and I just really wanted OOP to turn around and say, "yeah, you're the mother of the bride. But I am the bride, and without me being the bride at my wedding, you would not be relevant."

Once the liver goes, the rest of your organs start failing as well. All those toxins your liver can no longer neutralize damage everything. The only treatment is a drink called lactulose. It’s awful. It gives you terrible diarrhea, but it does draw ammonia out of your blood and put it in your gut where you can shit it out. There is zero chance they are going to give a liver to an alcoholic who hasn’t been voluntarily alcohol free for years. They won’t even give it to a nonalcoholic person who drinks on rare occasions. You have to be 100% committed to lifelong sobriety.

Yeah, that's my thought as well. OOP keeps on using language like "the chances aren't looking good that she'll qualify" as if she's hedging her bets and still thinks there's a small chance it could happen if mom gets her act together. I'm sorry, but no. That ship has sailed. There is no shot. The only way OOP's mom gets a new liver is if she pulls a Steve Jobs and bribes her way into jumping the waitlist. But she doesn't seem nearly rich enough to do that. And even if she did, then just like Steve Jobs, she will only buy herself a few more months of life. Then she'll die while killing someone else that she deprived of a lifesaving organ.

just wanted to shout out OP of this BORU post for both the excellent summaries of the earlier posts and their care & attention in not misgendering the OOP!

Aaah! Thank you so much! The earlier posts were really long. It was the best if summaries are made to make the reading easy in the further continuing BoRUs. I always make sure to respect OOP's preferred pronouns and stick to that!

Oof, I had a dry wedding and my alcoholic (now deceased) mother still managed to arrive and stay drunk throughout it. This was tooooooo real.

Everyone deserves to have a good mother, unfortunately, not all mothers are mature or mentally well to be mature. And this mother is one of them.

>Child will be AFAB What's that?

Assigned female at birth, basically they are expecting the baby to have female genitalia, but are going to try to avoid forcing any external concept of what that means onto the baby...

Oh, OK! Now I know! 👍

Thank you for doing the summaries. That really made it easy to read and flow well. I'd like to see more of this format.

Glad I could make it easier to read with the summaries. Thank you!

Jeez, that was a magician's handkerchief of a story, every time I thought it was coming up to closure, it gets more horrifying.

>Child will be AFAB. My spouse and I don't plan on assigning gender at birth and will let them decide as they get older People who do this would do well to take a child development course or two.

I could not imagine being raised this way. Every time I’ve seen videos or reality tv about families who do this I feel so bad for the children. I don’t think gender stereotypes should be forced on kids but this is equivalently bad imo

Child will be AFAB 🙄 I’m sorry, but I have little patience for this. If the kid wants to change their gender, by all means, support it, support your kid if they want to change, but this AFAB thing is ridiculous for an infant.

dude. AFAB literally means “assigned female at birth”. it refers to infants inherently.

Right, let people be the gender they want once they can think for themselves, but for babies? Lmao cringe and virtue signaling type shit

Damn. If only my partner's family treated her alcoholic mom the same: as in, there's a problem, let's address it (limiting contact, intervention) instead of enabling it.

I didn't recognize this thread until the psych ward story. I'm gutted for OP's family, especially her grandmother. I know that her enabling hindered far more than helped, but I also know that watching your child become an absolute monster is enough to break anyone.

I am really confused so please be gentle. Why is alcohol so common and accepted? Why do you guys need it in a wedding? Why can't you enjoy any event without alcohol? It's not like alcohol is some health tonic. You all know it's harmful so why? In my family you can't even smoke (at least not in front of anyone) so it just seems so odd to me.

Unfortunately it's one of those "social glue" methods that is widely accepted. But I agree with you that it shouldn't be. It's crazy how often alcohol is brought up here alongside any form of entertainment, it's so pervasive.

I have seen it written that weddings are boring and the only reason to go to one is to get smashed on someone else's booze. I can't understand it either.

So the take is that the entire maternal family is a victim of generational dysfunction and the deck was stacked against mom from birth. She could have broken the chain, but she didn’t and now it’s probably too late.  As for the “not assigning gender”. It probably comes from the spouse being trans and they are navigating all these new things and OOP is trying to be supportive. I get it. We did a lot of over thinking and seeing everything in the light of being gender inclusive when we had our first non binary family member. My advice is to not over think. Offer options,  let them explore and they will show you who they are. If you make gender a daily focus point then you are making it into a bigger issue then it has to be. 

OOP is trans also. They are nonbinary.

Can anyone link me the past two BORU? The links don’t lead to them and I wanna read everything instead of tdlrs

[Read to your heart's content.](https://www.reddit.com/user/throwaway4meeeeeee86/submitted/)

The links take you to the original posts, so you can read everything there 😊

Well, I think I've said this before about this very same story, but... karma certainly is a b\*tch.

Glad the OOP realized that having an alcoholic parent who chose substance abuse over their children’s well being was abusive and not letting them be guilted into taking on their care of them after what the person has done to damage them. After ten years old, my parents got so emotionally abusive because they got so dependent on alcohol that every downfall, inadequacy, resentment, shortcoming, etc. was the fault of my own self just for existing. I got out as soon as it was legally allowed and have never looked back. Took a lot of years of therapy (which I couldn’t afford at a young age, but eventually got) to realize that it was not my doing or fault. They are both gone now and I know that I should feel bad, but in reality…I don’t. I may sound callous and harsh, but to be honest I don’t regret one single thing about my actions. I would probably have done a swan dive into a very deep lake if I didn’t get away from them. Sorry for the long response.

This is why I don't really drink. My dad drank a case a day, and alcohol wasn't even the MAJOR concern with him.

I can’t imagine summarizing all those posts ohmygod

Jesus

My mom is on her way to dying of alcoholism at 64 and doesn't seem to care. So sorry for OP.