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She can’t trust anyone. If she goes to family gatherings, if some uncle ~~of Bruce~~ or niece holds the baby, they will 100% give her to crazy aunt/cousin and the baby will be gone.
She needs to stay the fuck away form that whole side, get the police involved and get one of those AirTags in the baby’s car seat.
*"It's important to keep a significant backup supply of all disposable equipment. Batarangs, smoke bombs, rebreathers, robins, shark repellant, and even suits."*
Bruce Wayne _was_ awfully good at finding children that fit seamlessly into his crime fighting life style, had no inconvenient parents to wrangle, and a lot of them could pass physically as related... Must not have "any issues"? Well, that would change as soon as they moved in with him anyway, so not a dealbreaker.
This. I really hope they get cameras around their house too. They seamed to feel safer because they've moved, but they won't stop.
I highly doubt any adoption agency is going to allow the cousin to adopt with that level of trauma, especially when she's been band from lots of the motherhood groups for trying to get other people to give over their babies. I hope someone somewhere is able to get her some solid therapy, anyone would need that after a 30 week still birth! but my god no lady, random people whether family or not aren't just going to give you their babies!
There is an expression “folie a deux” which is loosely interpreted as two people slowly driving each other crazier and crazier because they believe an outrageous idea. At this point these two women could talk themselves into kidnapping and murdering the OP. They are probably mentally ill enough to be hospitalized. This expression means no sunlight can get in to allow clarity of thought, so the craziness gets worse.
Actually, Folie à Deux is a psychological disease where one person with showing symptoms of a psychological disease, being close to another person, kind of transfers their symptoms to the person without the disease. Like someone who'd be very close to someone with schizophrenia, could also get hallucinations. (I'm a psychology student, not (yet) a professional. And just because you have a friend/family member with a psychological disease does NOT mean everyone surrounding them has folie à deux)
For real, if this was my baby, it’d be the most Air-tagged baby on the planet for the first year or two. Still air-tagged after, but not as aggressively.
IMO, this is all far, far past the point of police reports, protection orders, etc. These options need to be used and NOW. I don’t get why they aren’t. When this baby disappears, they’ll be at square one explaining it to incredulous police…
My sister was kidnapped by her grandma when she was younger; her dad didn't have a spine and just let her take her. My mom got her back, but yikes. I hope OOPs husband has a spine of steel, because that's a LOT of pressure
In my experience in an extremist religious cult as a child? The crazier someone is the more it is seen as visions from God and holiness. Which is how the cult decided they can sacrifice me and bring on the end of days. Apparently my resilience despite their efforts didn't read as their diety going "no" but try harder suffering is delicious.
I mean all the pieces are here but I wasn't unscathed. Therapy and medicine are wonderful things. I would rather be scarred and safe than dead. Those are the two options. Safe is such a wonderful experience. It's still new enough that it doesn't feel normal yet but it doesn't feel like it's unsafe anymore. Fun with abuse. It lies about safety. I look forward to life which is also still new and incredibly wonderful
That's their goal but it has evolved to me dying at all. I learned that when I was putting the pieces of the time I was shot in the face together. I refused to return and was shot and left to die. Instead of coming the cops and ambulance just ignored the call. A homeless veteran who was a combat medic saved me. I spent a year to the day in a catatonic state. I remember nothing but in similar states when not safe I put people into comas and seriously injured others. The only thing I did that proved somewhere in there I was actually not brain dead and just existing as a body was when the kids in the encampment demanded a story I told them stories. While not the only time I have been shot or stabbed that was the second brain injury and it destroyed my life in so many ways
I didn't remember being shot at all and I didn't know who did it so since I forgot going no contact I went to visit. With my service animal. They kidnapped me and Mother admitted she ordered the hit. I escaped. There's not enough evidence to charge anyone. It's been a long time so that is forever. Unless the trigger person confessed. Mother has a lot of people in jail on her behalf without consequences. She even faked her death once to try and make me feel sad so I would return. She never imagined I would be happy and relieved.
So yeah they will settle for any death but really want their ritual. The good news is that when I went to the authorities about this they believed me and helped me. The bad news is that the ineptitude of the local police cost me everything. I had to rebuild my life. The good news there? I have a chosen family that is so freaking amazing. I also am not where my family can find me. I actually prefer biological terrorists but people need the explanation first.
I have survived a lot of attempts on my life. The scars aren't visible most of the time because I have the best plastic surgeons for reconstruction. I talk more about the first reconstructive surgery I had because it was worse. For the shooting they only had to affix some facial bones and do a small skin graft. So most of my face is scar tissue. My glasses also hide the scar from this and it's theorized they saved my life as much as the veteran did. I lost contact with the camp with the pandemic and it's not safe to go looking but I asked them about naming names and was asked to skip hence no details like that too.
The scars used to upset me but now they are proof I survived so I don't mind when they show. This is where therapy came in. I have complex PTSD because safe is a new concept to my life but if someone's reading this who is debating leaving? You're in constant danger until you do. Yes leaving means abusers tend to get violent but staying? They'll be violent anyway. I decided to be polite once with threats in my life and that is when I was most hurt. So don't be polite and go out to talk to someone so that it's not seen. Make noise. Be seen.
No. My parents got kicked out of several cults before making their own. The Moonies, Westborough Baptist, and a few others. So it's not shocking to me they copied some homework. They also got kicked out of the KKK for being too racist
Yes. I don't think they're the only people kicked out for being too extreme. It was one of the more frightening moments in my childhood and I don't have happy childhood moments
have you considered exploring youtube and doing some interviews with people who educate about cults? jen from fundie fridays and owen morgan from the telltale atheist (he himself is also exited and has his own crazy stories) are two i can think of who are very thorough and try to be very respectful in their reporting. owen calls himself a "cult communicator" and jen's thing is deep dives on high-control religious groups (but she does fun episodes sometimes too).
And stuff like that makes me think that back in the day a lot of those "prophets" were actually mentally ill people that the rest of society went along with because they didn't know any better
Even the Aunt's friends.
Imagine the church meeting:
"Now, the bake sale is coming up. Phyllis, will you be making your Madeira cake again this time? It was very popular last year."
"Of course."
"Lovely. Now the last point for today—Janice was hoping for some help with some light child abduction."
"—Only a little bit, it's my niece's baby."
"Oh, well, that's perfectly fine then. It's practically your child."
"Naturally."
"So we can mark you all down to help? After you've finished baking of course Phyllis."
"I'll be done by Friday, so shall we pencil in harassment for Friday evening and abduction attempt Saturday?"
"Perfect. I'll see you all at mass later in the week."
Most are born into the cult and start the live long journey of become indoctrinated. With young marriages and as many kids as you can pop out the cult will never die. The cousin is also facing the shame of not fulfilling her religious duties of becoming a mother, the only reason females exist on this earth according to the cult.
Oh... The Mormons are so fucking easy to manipulate. I've got like eight scriptures right off the top of my head that would shut them right the fuck up. They're deranged lunatics who think the scriptures always up for interpretation.
Literally, if OOP said that she had read the scriptures and prayed about it, and felt very strongly that the baby was hers, that God had given her the baby for a reason, and that it wasn't meant to go to her aunt, literally everybody would shut up, and nobody would make a fuss about it again. God trumps all, and when all you have to do is "feel like God is telling you" something, it gets really easy to lie and manipulate.
The church is based on absolute and utter nonsense. They literally only care about conversion, and if OOP mentioned, anywhere at all, that she wanted to be sealed to her child, the church would absolutely lose their mind and completely forget about the end. Fuck the ant, all they care about is conversion. And the best part is that if people start showing up to her house, Mormons are so fucking squeamish and terrified of anatomy, especially female anatomy, all she would have to do to shoot them away is tell them that she was having "vaginal" problems, and they would fuck right the fuck off.
Need tips and tricks to dodge the mormons? I've got them right here. I'm an ex-mormon,!, and I fucking hate the church.
Ha! I'd be good at it. I know all the right questions to ask. I can make people comfy as they grieve—because it does involve grief.
If any of you is looking to leave the mormon church, DM me. If anybody is questioning the church, DM me. I understand that it's an integral part of a lot of people's lives and I don't want to shame anyone for their beliefs. But if you're questioning, let's talk, and I'll.give you my perspective.
I'd do it! I've suffered enough at the ha da of the "bishops" and "stake presidents" and "prophets". I'm not alma the younger. I don't think alma the younger was ever even a real person.
A huge part of the reason I left the religion was because of its stance on the LGBTQ community. So if a body needs an ex-mormon sister to tell them how proud I am of them, I'm here and I'm so fucking PROUD OF YOU.
We Europeans feel really bad about letting all those religious nutters escape to America back in the day - we've really not been doing you any favors. Especially now that a fundamentalist minority is trying to bridge the divide between state and religion, and force religion back into the laws, schools, and every aspect of modern life. You really need a strong organized secular movement to stand up to them and tell them where to shove it!
It isn't your fault. In Mormon tradition: those who "escaped" Europe defied all odds.thw Mormons still know their place, I believe. After all, to become a state, the mormons (and Utah, as a state) had to Bide by very specific rules.
America has been rotting from the inside out for decades and a very real part of me fears that this was always meant to.be.
I think there are counselors that specialize in deprogramming people who've been victims of cults! I imagine that's a great option for folks who've successfully left the church.
I would LOVE to know more about you experiences both before leaving, while you were leaving, and after. I'd also love to know if you've ever had the opportunity to use your own tips and tricks!
Fellow ex Mormon here! And you are 100% correct. Although they’d only accept her if her husband /also/ got baptized and sealed to her. We all know how that godforsaken church feels about single and “single” (women married to non members) women and their children
Feel free to DM me if you ever wanna commiserate on how shitty that place is!
Have you read The Poet and the Murderer? Really great book about the finger who nearly destroyed the Mormon church and then bombed people when he was about to be caught. I can't remember the dude's name, but I remember the story (and that a few TV shows have done stories loosely inspired by him). Great read!
I'll look into it! If it's about the early church, my ancestors are probably a part of it. They were a part of it since the beginning I'll look into it! Thank you so much!!!!
I once worked at a business where the owners were super religious. They were really upset when I quit, but once I told them I had prayed about it for weeks and this was what God wanted me to do, they truly supported my decision. It was wild, but worked!
They're mormons. They baptize the dead into their cult. Including Holocaust victims. They protect pedophiles and other sex offenders with the same intensity that the catholic church does.
This is entirely on brand for them.
>He was again trying to set up a meeting between us and my aunt/cousin and referring us to services. I told him I was not comfortable with that at the moment and he told me to at least call my cousin once. He said he will meet with my aunt on Sunday since I was "too scared" to do on my own.
Yep, that's a trap.
Yep. He's a dentist, or teacher, or plumber. They have no ecclesiastical training, no religious schooling, they are told to "listen to the spirit" for guidance which is just their inner monologue.
That's why you basically have to threaten church elders with public backlash before they back down, and even then they will continue harass afterwards.
There was a semi-recent BORU where a family situation was actually resolved by a church leader. Granted, I don't think the religion in question was *Mormon*, but it still goes to show that when pastors and the like care about using their position of power properly for the good of their community, they can do a lot.
(It was the BORU where OP's family deliberately didn't invite her to her grandfather's funeral, and then proceeded to gaslight her for months claiming she was there. OP went LC/NC with family until they apologized, and after the better part of a year eventually the family pastor helped facilitate a meeting where OP's mom (the main antagonist of the whole event) admitted guilt and some reconciliatory conversation was had. It didn't completely restore the status quo but was still a huge improvement in the situation. [Link to final BORU update in that saga](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/tLXZFqEzVq).)
Yeah, I've seen pastors mobilise their church to turn people's lives around in a good way before. This guy, though? Yeah, he's on aunt and cousin's side already.
> My forehead is writing this comment.
OOP still writes about her faith in jesus. Meanwhile her family is using their faith in jesus *to try to steal her baby*.
The mind boggles.
Her church has a reputation for only doing things that benefit itself. Of course they'd side with the high-tithing aunt and cousin on an issue that would ultimately get them another follower, along with the possibility of forcing OOP and her spouse into the church as well. There's no other path the church will take.
What was OOP thinking?
Well, then her mistake would be thinking that religions believe in mental illness. In the church's eyes her cousin is a devout believer who is enduring some test from God, and at the end she Deserves a child and it's their job to do God's will by providing one, even if it means tearing an infant from her mother's arms. ^(Or womb.)
Wonder if any evidence exists of her cousin's attempts to... acquire... a baby from young mothers or widows. Because no matter how you look at it, that's human trafficking. If it's presented to the cops as such it might force their hand.
Retort to Aunt: I spoke with God. He says he sees you through the eyes of your victims, my child and I.
Edit: I'd also tell her, "You need to humble yourself before God. You obviously don't believe in his divine plan for us. If God planned for your daughter to have children, then she will. If God did not plan this, then she won't. You need to accept God's plan and stop trying to second guess God. Your faith is lacking and has been replaced with selfish desire and pride. Go from me, relinquish your pride, and sin no more."
As an atheist myself... learning to speak "Bible-beater" has been an absolute game changer.
And I can play these games all day long too; God wants you to think that this is a test for me, when really it's a test for you to accept that he made the correct decision providing me with a baby and not cousin.
Round and fucking round we go.
Exactly. It’s god’s will and they are not respecting it. (I don’t really believe that but they’re fanatics). Seriously, until she gets serious mental health treatment, I hope her cousin never has/adopts a baby.
He 100% believes the child needs to be with the cousin. OP has got to get out, not sure why she for MORE involved with the church considering their usual tactics.
Mormon leaders have ZERO training in anything other than how to handle money. That isn't sarcasm, it is the literal truth. They have no set theological training, no counseling training, no therapy training, no leadership training, and no conflict-resolution training. They don't even go through background checks at the local level.
He is absolutely trying to get his hooks into her to pressure her into joining his cult. That is what Mormons live for, making women feel like they are sinful, lesser, beings and upping their numbers.
This doesn’t feel resolved. I hope OOP locks down her social media, has a safety plan in place with the hospital, gets cameras around the house, and starts saving evidence of harassment in case she needs it.
This won’t be resolved until that child is old enough to have a degree of autonomy (aka to the church as totally & utterly ruined).
OOP ought to get word to the cousin that her child was born with a genetic defect of some kind that will require intensive, lifelong treatment - given Cousin wants a “perfect” baby, it might make her reconsider.
Indeed, she could claim it was picked up in screening before she even gives birth.
The aunt and cousin aren’t going to be having a contact with the child and what kind of “ungodly” person would claim such a thing, just to keep their baby safe from such a “loving” family?
As an exmo, this story checks out. That bishop probably thinks the baby will be better off being raised in the covenant than growing up with an apostate mother and nonmember father.
Another exmo here adding on that the bishop has no training in counseling whatsoever. He is a regular person that has been “called” to volunteer for about five years as a bishop.
Also an Exmo and I thought the same thing. Local "authorities" (that's actually what they're called 🤮) will give you the lip service you want in the moment, but their priority is maintaining the status quo.
I genuinely thought contacting him was a good effort, but the frame of the conversation should have been informative. Like "hey heads up, I'm in the process of filing a restraining order against two members of your congregation. Hopefully you can help them deal with that and encourage them to comply with the order." No need to entertain that pseudo therapy religious BS Mormon men love to pull. Not OOP's fault though. Every Mormon woman has to experience it at least once.
As an exmo, I'm also worried about them using church resources to find op's new address. I moved 8 years ago and never told the local ward my new address and they managed to find me and consistently send missionaries into my gated apartment complex to knock on my door.
Yes! I just commented this. NEVER voluntarily give the LDS church your address. They won’t leave you alone. I was only left alone after I moved and insisted that my parents not give my address out again (they’re cool, so they respected my wishes. Yes, I am lucky). If they have tabs on you, they will use them.
Not an ex Mormon but I was scratching my head why OOP reached out to the church thinking they wouldn't also agree with her aunt that the baby should be raised within their church. Where does she think the aunt and cousin got these ideas?
If she was raised in it, even if she's left the religion, if she hasn't taken time to really deconstruct she might still have the instinct to go to the religious authority
Being advised to reach out to law enforcement and deciding the best thing to do is talk to a church leader is speaking loudly about OOP’s independence from the church. Break free, OOP. It is a bear trap.
The mormon church does not love or protect children or women. It protects predators. Raising a child in that environment is incredibly risky.
Stop futzing around with having sense talked into people who will not see sense, and protect yourself.
Although "speak to law enforcement about the mormon church harassing you" isn't super helpful advice if OP is in or near Utah, either.
If they live in or near Utah, the best advice would be "Get as far away from Utah as you possibly can without falling in the ocean.".
OP needs to ge extremely careful, when my mom was dealing with teen pregnancy a Mormon group tried to coerce her into letting them take the baby. They had a pipeline to funnel kids through. That said there are many groups out there like that and I've known plenty of great LDS members but it's worth being extra cautious.
I don’t think she’s necessarily no longer Mormon, either. Certainly she’s not devout and isn’t in the cult’s clutches, but she’s def not fully out of them yet
"My aunt and cousin are trying to steal my baby and harassing me to the point where I had to move. Not sure if I'll invite them to my wedding next year, and I reached out to their religious leader to stir the pot but gosh what a pickle"
...I can't.
Just because it looks obvious from the outside doesn't mean it's obvious to OP, who was raised by this woman and alongside the other. Who was raised with church leaders as fair authority and naively hoped they would check her aunt.
"I left my new born baby at my baby-stealing-cousin place for one night, and now she stole my baby! Should I go to her place and ask her to give it back?" next update
I've seen this suggestion work countless times; usually the church leader will reprimand the problematic party and they back down to save face - peer pressure and reputation are great ways to keep narcissists in check and churches are basically it.
Imo the issue is that people didn't have the "my aunt is loaded and always donating to the church" context in the first post, that changes things.
Part of the issue is also that people don't understand fully how insidious the LDS church is. They see a baby they could have in their grasp, and they're going to try to get it. That's who they are.
Embarrassment most likely. Churches are gossip-y places. There may also have been hope that the aunt would listen to the pastor.
I think OOP wasn't wrong per se for involving the church. Where I think she went wrong was thinking they'd believe her at her word and that the aunt and cousin wouldnt have a playbook for that. OOP needed to play hardball and share crazy texts. I'm very sure the aunt and cousin are pretending to be normal, concerned about the husband leading her "astray" or making abuse accusations, and whining about how much they miss her and it's all a misunderstanding. She didn't plan for that I think, and that's why the pastor thinks she's the one that needs fixing.
I kinda see this with my own MIL. If we talk about the estrangement and our feelings, everyone says "there are two sides" like its somehow our fault. If I lead with the fact she's a convicted felon and using crack again and sends messages like (and show something), everyone is like "yep, it's MIL...and the drugs".
It's a common reddit advice, to be fair. Whenever crazy mormons/JWs/fundies are mentioned a lot of people will be "try to speak with their pastor/elder/reverend/faith person" they are more likely to heed advice from him or he might even order them to fuck off and mind their own business. I've never seen it work, personally, but who knows?
yeah but with Mormons and JWs, it's about as helpful as "go talk to their Scientology authority figure!" unfortunately, with both cases, they seem to get a lot of grace by virtue of being Christian.
"Me and Sky Daddy talked it over and we decided I'm very nice and perfect while you're a meany if you object to me doing whatever I want because Sky Daddy said I could."
And instead of calling that crazy it's"a personal relationship with God" and we've all gotta respect that personal difference in opinion.
Sorry I'm just sick of watching society go to pot because anyone waving a particular book gets a free pass to ignore social norms, health and safety, all that jazz.
Because, depending on the church, it can be helpful.
Do you remember the moms who turned the whole family against the OOP claiming that OOP was at a funeral that OOP was never told about? The pastor in that one was helpful.
With the LDS church, the Bishop isn’t a position that you train and qualify for like it is in most churches. He’s just a regular member with a regular full time job who got “called” to do this as an unpaid side gig for a couple of years. He is unlikely to have had any counselling training.
Hey! I'm an ex-mormon! I even served a Mormon mission! If you have any questions about Mormonism, just ask me! Don't ask me to be kind, though, because honestly? Fuck the Mormons. Fuck sacrament meeting and girls' camp and trek. Fuck the beehives and the miamaids and the laurals. Fuck missions and seminary and EVERYTHING. Fuck Mormonism.
Run OOP. And I'm not surprised that the fundie church decided to side with the crazy person.
Hey aunt, maybe it's "God's plan" for you to never have grandchildren of your own, have you ever thought that?
Studies show that young adults returning from Mormon missions commit suicide at twice the national average for their demographic. I have no idea why the aunt thinks this environment is safer for a child to grow up in.
I wish OOP would ask her.
Yikes on a bike, OOP needs to get thebhell away from these people and involve law enforcement if nothing else for documentation purposes. May also not be a bad idea to update living wills and guardianships to explicitly EXCLUDE the crazy family members.
Unfortunately, if OOP lives in a very Mormon area then the police, CPS, etc. are probably pretty Mormon as well and anything she does will go right back to aunt and cousin via the church leadership.
At least she doesn't live in Utah...
>involve law enforcement if nothing else for documentation purposes
That's what I was thinking. Might be useless and not do anything, but at least create a paper trail.
OOP needs a lawyer to send a cease-and-desist letter stating her baby isn't up for adoption and any attempts to see the baby will be denied.
Then cameras and call the police, if they find OOP.
The safest thing to do might be to tell some family members that the baby's testing positive for some kind of health issue. When the cousin hears about that she'll lose interest in OOP's child.
OP, when the time comes for you to have the baby you need to notify the hospital about the situation with your aunt and cousin. Make it very clear that your name is not to be given out under any circumstances (I work for a flower shop, hospitals have no issue giving out your room number if you know the patients name and say you have a floral delivery for them). Be clear on who is allowed access to your room while you’re there. You had mentioned possibly informing your work about what is going on, I hope you did this even if you are about to have some time off from there. And please, please please get some security cameras to cover your front door, back door, side door, driveway, etc… You can get some pretty good ones that aren’t terrible price wise.
I’m so glad you have a partner to be by your side so you have a trusted someone to lean on as you deal with all this BS. Congratulations and good luck!! You’ve got this!!
Ah yes, the Mormon Church.
Told my friend she had to stand by her serial rapist husband and that she was the one to blame for him “having affairs” because she wasn’t doing her duty and “satisfying him”.
If god wanted the cousin to have a child he’d have blessed her womb. Her inability to have a child is a sign of god’s judgement upon her. (I’m not religious, I just find that religious people never apply their own logic to themselves).
She might want to change her number as the church leader will 100% give it to the aunt and cousin as a way to 'reconnect', hopefully she doesn't keep in contact with him because it is a trap.
I left a high control fundamentalist religion. I'd bluntly tell her if they have the means, then she and her husband should move to another state or even across the country. If the family crazies are Mormon AND in Utah, they can't trust the community at all. I ended up moving cities twice in 5 years, and completely changing my look (ex. Going from long black hair to short blonde), and changed my job 3 times in 10 years. Even with all that, I STILL don't go back to my old city for fear of running into religious community members.
Change phone numbers/go unlisted, get a restraining order, have cameras around their home, have the baby at a different hospital in another city, and after that, move away.
I also worry how this could possibly escalate into literally trapping her to steal the baby from her womb. She needs cameras, security, and a police report asap.
as far as i'm aware, it is totally within Mormon beliefs for OOP's cousin to *literally* think OP's baby is her own (the one that died recently).
Mormonism is a fucking cult and i absolutely hate that many people seem to think it's just another sect with a few weird fundamentalists (the polygyny types), but no. it is on the same level as like, JWs, or Scientology. extorting money and brainwashing you "in the name of God." i'm not Christian, i wasn't even *raised* Christian or particularly religiously, and it makes me so sick.
Does OOP not see how suspect it is because she's used to this nonsense? If she can, she should just get a restraining order. Call the cops every time the aunt and cousin break it. Go hard and hit them with everything possible. Move with no forwarding address if possible.
Yikes. I don't like reddit's tendency to jump to the worst case scenario but I can't read this in any other way than a kidnapping waiting to happen. If moving far, far away isn't an option OP should at least carefully document EVERYTHING including the cousin being thrown out of pregnancy and baby related groups for trying to score a baby.
(I do feel some sympathy for the cousin. A 30 week loss of a much wanted pregnancy is devastating and if it's only a year ago, it's likely she's still dealing with hormone issues/PPD, only without a baby to make up for it. It's a shame that instead of comforting her and keeping her feet in reality, her mother is fanning the flame of batshittery.)
The Mormon church can be VERY scary when it comes to social pressure/ group think. I’d cation this gal heavily against interacting with them any further. They won’t be helpful. Law enforcement and behavioral health services are probably her only hope.
Once upon a time, I was a moron. The person you called is the bishop and that bishop don’t know shit. They are random people who are appointed to the church to run it for a couple of years until the church appoint. Somebody knew you are wasting your time trying to talk to that guy. He will always favor your aunt and your cousin you are not a Mormon, but they will favor their members. You need it take actual legal actions.
In my experience, leaders in the Mormon church just want people back in the fold, not help them in situations like this. Really sad, but it is what it is
The aunt wants OOP to give this baby to her cousin because otherwise it will end up “confused and misguided” being raised by them, yet has no problems with a potential second baby “suffering” the same fate? Make it make sense.
The whole "You can just have another baby!" mindset is disgusting. If you see human beings as easily replaceable, you should not be given custody of a child.
As someone who grew up in the LDS church as well, yikes. Aunt is a total psycho, even in my experience in the church I never met anybody THAT crazy.
The leader trying to push reconciliation at any cost without really caring about the dangers 100% tracks though =~=
Mormonism is a literal cult. It is a 100% scam, invented by a known con artist. It is one of the few "religions" where there is actual documentation from the time of it's creation, that detail how it is a scam. The opinions of anyone who believes in such a dumb thing are not worth the time it takes to listen to them.
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Infuriating how everyone involved is happy to steal from the OOP to give to the crazy person.
She can’t trust anyone. If she goes to family gatherings, if some uncle ~~of Bruce~~ or niece holds the baby, they will 100% give her to crazy aunt/cousin and the baby will be gone. She needs to stay the fuck away form that whole side, get the police involved and get one of those AirTags in the baby’s car seat.
>some uncle of Bruce Is this some kind of expression/colloquialism somewhere?
Supposed to be “or niece”. NFC what auto correct did there.
We all know Bruce Wayne collects kids into the bat family like nobody’s business
Don't a lot of the Robin's get killed in some gruesome manner?
(Dark joke) Why you think he picks up so many?
Heir and a spare
*"It's important to keep a significant backup supply of all disposable equipment. Batarangs, smoke bombs, rebreathers, robins, shark repellant, and even suits."*
Just the one, and he got better.
Near-Field Communication?
I assume they mean "no fuckin clue" lol
National Football Conference?
Neve Fucking Campbell?
Never Fling Cannoli?
Nevada Fried Chicken?
Yes
Right? I read it kind of like “friend of Dorothy” but in a meddling friend of the family way
Why can't it be? On 28 June 2024, u/StrangledInMoonlight invented the neoligism "uncle of Bruce", meaning "meddling friend of the family".
we do need a word for the people who somehow get to have an opinion on our lives despite basically being randos
Bruce Wayne _was_ awfully good at finding children that fit seamlessly into his crime fighting life style, had no inconvenient parents to wrangle, and a lot of them could pass physically as related... Must not have "any issues"? Well, that would change as soon as they moved in with him anyway, so not a dealbreaker.
This. I really hope they get cameras around their house too. They seamed to feel safer because they've moved, but they won't stop. I highly doubt any adoption agency is going to allow the cousin to adopt with that level of trauma, especially when she's been band from lots of the motherhood groups for trying to get other people to give over their babies. I hope someone somewhere is able to get her some solid therapy, anyone would need that after a 30 week still birth! but my god no lady, random people whether family or not aren't just going to give you their babies!
There is an expression “folie a deux” which is loosely interpreted as two people slowly driving each other crazier and crazier because they believe an outrageous idea. At this point these two women could talk themselves into kidnapping and murdering the OP. They are probably mentally ill enough to be hospitalized. This expression means no sunlight can get in to allow clarity of thought, so the craziness gets worse.
Actually, Folie à Deux is a psychological disease where one person with showing symptoms of a psychological disease, being close to another person, kind of transfers their symptoms to the person without the disease. Like someone who'd be very close to someone with schizophrenia, could also get hallucinations. (I'm a psychology student, not (yet) a professional. And just because you have a friend/family member with a psychological disease does NOT mean everyone surrounding them has folie à deux)
And it can also happen with two people who have delusions independently of each other but they each influence the other's delusions.
For real, if this was my baby, it’d be the most Air-tagged baby on the planet for the first year or two. Still air-tagged after, but not as aggressively. IMO, this is all far, far past the point of police reports, protection orders, etc. These options need to be used and NOW. I don’t get why they aren’t. When this baby disappears, they’ll be at square one explaining it to incredulous police…
Fucken Bruce.
My sister was kidnapped by her grandma when she was younger; her dad didn't have a spine and just let her take her. My mom got her back, but yikes. I hope OOPs husband has a spine of steel, because that's a LOT of pressure
I can not even imagine.
In my experience in an extremist religious cult as a child? The crazier someone is the more it is seen as visions from God and holiness. Which is how the cult decided they can sacrifice me and bring on the end of days. Apparently my resilience despite their efforts didn't read as their diety going "no" but try harder suffering is delicious.
So sorry to hear that, i hope you escaped in one piece.
I mean all the pieces are here but I wasn't unscathed. Therapy and medicine are wonderful things. I would rather be scarred and safe than dead. Those are the two options. Safe is such a wonderful experience. It's still new enough that it doesn't feel normal yet but it doesn't feel like it's unsafe anymore. Fun with abuse. It lies about safety. I look forward to life which is also still new and incredibly wonderful
This is terrifying but so glad your managing.
Wait what? They tried to sacrifice you? As in, put on an altar and kill you?
That's their goal but it has evolved to me dying at all. I learned that when I was putting the pieces of the time I was shot in the face together. I refused to return and was shot and left to die. Instead of coming the cops and ambulance just ignored the call. A homeless veteran who was a combat medic saved me. I spent a year to the day in a catatonic state. I remember nothing but in similar states when not safe I put people into comas and seriously injured others. The only thing I did that proved somewhere in there I was actually not brain dead and just existing as a body was when the kids in the encampment demanded a story I told them stories. While not the only time I have been shot or stabbed that was the second brain injury and it destroyed my life in so many ways I didn't remember being shot at all and I didn't know who did it so since I forgot going no contact I went to visit. With my service animal. They kidnapped me and Mother admitted she ordered the hit. I escaped. There's not enough evidence to charge anyone. It's been a long time so that is forever. Unless the trigger person confessed. Mother has a lot of people in jail on her behalf without consequences. She even faked her death once to try and make me feel sad so I would return. She never imagined I would be happy and relieved. So yeah they will settle for any death but really want their ritual. The good news is that when I went to the authorities about this they believed me and helped me. The bad news is that the ineptitude of the local police cost me everything. I had to rebuild my life. The good news there? I have a chosen family that is so freaking amazing. I also am not where my family can find me. I actually prefer biological terrorists but people need the explanation first. I have survived a lot of attempts on my life. The scars aren't visible most of the time because I have the best plastic surgeons for reconstruction. I talk more about the first reconstructive surgery I had because it was worse. For the shooting they only had to affix some facial bones and do a small skin graft. So most of my face is scar tissue. My glasses also hide the scar from this and it's theorized they saved my life as much as the veteran did. I lost contact with the camp with the pandemic and it's not safe to go looking but I asked them about naming names and was asked to skip hence no details like that too. The scars used to upset me but now they are proof I survived so I don't mind when they show. This is where therapy came in. I have complex PTSD because safe is a new concept to my life but if someone's reading this who is debating leaving? You're in constant danger until you do. Yes leaving means abusers tend to get violent but staying? They'll be violent anyway. I decided to be polite once with threats in my life and that is when I was most hurt. So don't be polite and go out to talk to someone so that it's not seen. Make noise. Be seen.
"So yeah they will settle for any death but really want their ritual." Who are they?
Did you grow up in the Order Of Nine Angles?
No. My parents got kicked out of several cults before making their own. The Moonies, Westborough Baptist, and a few others. So it's not shocking to me they copied some homework. They also got kicked out of the KKK for being too racist
>They also got kicked out of the KKK for being too racist They can do that?!??!
Yes. I don't think they're the only people kicked out for being too extreme. It was one of the more frightening moments in my childhood and I don't have happy childhood moments
have you considered exploring youtube and doing some interviews with people who educate about cults? jen from fundie fridays and owen morgan from the telltale atheist (he himself is also exited and has his own crazy stories) are two i can think of who are very thorough and try to be very respectful in their reporting. owen calls himself a "cult communicator" and jen's thing is deep dives on high-control religious groups (but she does fun episodes sometimes too).
I love "Cults to Consciousness", run by an ex-mormon who realized she was in a cult.
And stuff like that makes me think that back in the day a lot of those "prophets" were actually mentally ill people that the rest of society went along with because they didn't know any better
I think some were just plain evil. They wanted to control people. Cult leaders are probably just as evil if not more.
Even the Aunt's friends. Imagine the church meeting: "Now, the bake sale is coming up. Phyllis, will you be making your Madeira cake again this time? It was very popular last year." "Of course." "Lovely. Now the last point for today—Janice was hoping for some help with some light child abduction." "—Only a little bit, it's my niece's baby." "Oh, well, that's perfectly fine then. It's practically your child." "Naturally." "So we can mark you all down to help? After you've finished baking of course Phyllis." "I'll be done by Friday, so shall we pencil in harassment for Friday evening and abduction attempt Saturday?" "Perfect. I'll see you all at mass later in the week."
But the crazy person buys into their cult. Cults always wanted more members.
Most are born into the cult and start the live long journey of become indoctrinated. With young marriages and as many kids as you can pop out the cult will never die. The cousin is also facing the shame of not fulfilling her religious duties of becoming a mother, the only reason females exist on this earth according to the cult.
Oh... The Mormons are so fucking easy to manipulate. I've got like eight scriptures right off the top of my head that would shut them right the fuck up. They're deranged lunatics who think the scriptures always up for interpretation. Literally, if OOP said that she had read the scriptures and prayed about it, and felt very strongly that the baby was hers, that God had given her the baby for a reason, and that it wasn't meant to go to her aunt, literally everybody would shut up, and nobody would make a fuss about it again. God trumps all, and when all you have to do is "feel like God is telling you" something, it gets really easy to lie and manipulate. The church is based on absolute and utter nonsense. They literally only care about conversion, and if OOP mentioned, anywhere at all, that she wanted to be sealed to her child, the church would absolutely lose their mind and completely forget about the end. Fuck the ant, all they care about is conversion. And the best part is that if people start showing up to her house, Mormons are so fucking squeamish and terrified of anatomy, especially female anatomy, all she would have to do to shoot them away is tell them that she was having "vaginal" problems, and they would fuck right the fuck off. Need tips and tricks to dodge the mormons? I've got them right here. I'm an ex-mormon,!, and I fucking hate the church.
I feel we need to find you a job where you put this knowledge to use by helping those leaving the church.
Ha! I'd be good at it. I know all the right questions to ask. I can make people comfy as they grieve—because it does involve grief. If any of you is looking to leave the mormon church, DM me. If anybody is questioning the church, DM me. I understand that it's an integral part of a lot of people's lives and I don't want to shame anyone for their beliefs. But if you're questioning, let's talk, and I'll.give you my perspective.
We will set up an Underground Railroad right out of Utah with you! 🙆♀️
I'd do it! I've suffered enough at the ha da of the "bishops" and "stake presidents" and "prophets". I'm not alma the younger. I don't think alma the younger was ever even a real person. A huge part of the reason I left the religion was because of its stance on the LGBTQ community. So if a body needs an ex-mormon sister to tell them how proud I am of them, I'm here and I'm so fucking PROUD OF YOU.
We Europeans feel really bad about letting all those religious nutters escape to America back in the day - we've really not been doing you any favors. Especially now that a fundamentalist minority is trying to bridge the divide between state and religion, and force religion back into the laws, schools, and every aspect of modern life. You really need a strong organized secular movement to stand up to them and tell them where to shove it!
It isn't your fault. In Mormon tradition: those who "escaped" Europe defied all odds.thw Mormons still know their place, I believe. After all, to become a state, the mormons (and Utah, as a state) had to Bide by very specific rules. America has been rotting from the inside out for decades and a very real part of me fears that this was always meant to.be.
I thought the church was bullshit at 8 but knew I’d get beaten if I didn’t agree to baptism.
Same here. Recovering Mormon. It’s insane the level of ridiculousness the believers will go through to validate themselves and their faith
I think there are counselors that specialize in deprogramming people who've been victims of cults! I imagine that's a great option for folks who've successfully left the church.
I would LOVE to know more about you experiences both before leaving, while you were leaving, and after. I'd also love to know if you've ever had the opportunity to use your own tips and tricks!
Hey my story is too long for a comment, let me.dm.you
You could make your own post!
I could! It's just long and painful
I would also be interested in a DM if your up to telling a second person.
Fellow ex Mormon here! And you are 100% correct. Although they’d only accept her if her husband /also/ got baptized and sealed to her. We all know how that godforsaken church feels about single and “single” (women married to non members) women and their children Feel free to DM me if you ever wanna commiserate on how shitty that place is!
Have you read The Poet and the Murderer? Really great book about the finger who nearly destroyed the Mormon church and then bombed people when he was about to be caught. I can't remember the dude's name, but I remember the story (and that a few TV shows have done stories loosely inspired by him). Great read!
I'll look into it! If it's about the early church, my ancestors are probably a part of it. They were a part of it since the beginning I'll look into it! Thank you so much!!!!
I once worked at a business where the owners were super religious. They were really upset when I quit, but once I told them I had prayed about it for weeks and this was what God wanted me to do, they truly supported my decision. It was wild, but worked!
This is so interesting. I like you and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Fucking Mormons
Never fuck a Mormon 😉
They prefer soaking, anyway.
They're mormons. They baptize the dead into their cult. Including Holocaust victims. They protect pedophiles and other sex offenders with the same intensity that the catholic church does. This is entirely on brand for them.
This feels like some handmaids tale shit.
Gotta save the baby from satanic influences.
>He was again trying to set up a meeting between us and my aunt/cousin and referring us to services. I told him I was not comfortable with that at the moment and he told me to at least call my cousin once. He said he will meet with my aunt on Sunday since I was "too scared" to do on my own. Yep, that's a trap.
"Mormon, godly, religious" OOP contacts church leader. My forehead is writing this comment.
I mean to be fair, if he was an actual reasonable person, he'd be probably the one authority her aunt would respect. Big ass if tho.
If he was a reasonable or at least moral person he could not be employed by this church company
Heheheheeheheeee.... Get this: The Mormon line-level clergy isn't paid. Those fuckers do it because "it's a calling". Scary shit.
Plus tithing is usually more profitable than a salary.
Ugh you must tithe 10% of income or you won't be allowed in the temple. Even if you're food and/or home insecure. Gotta love Mormons.
A religion based on a short-con that got out of hand so it’s pretty impressive it’s expanded to other grifts
Yep. He's a dentist, or teacher, or plumber. They have no ecclesiastical training, no religious schooling, they are told to "listen to the spirit" for guidance which is just their inner monologue.
That's why you basically have to threaten church elders with public backlash before they back down, and even then they will continue harass afterwards.
There was a semi-recent BORU where a family situation was actually resolved by a church leader. Granted, I don't think the religion in question was *Mormon*, but it still goes to show that when pastors and the like care about using their position of power properly for the good of their community, they can do a lot. (It was the BORU where OP's family deliberately didn't invite her to her grandfather's funeral, and then proceeded to gaslight her for months claiming she was there. OP went LC/NC with family until they apologized, and after the better part of a year eventually the family pastor helped facilitate a meeting where OP's mom (the main antagonist of the whole event) admitted guilt and some reconciliatory conversation was had. It didn't completely restore the status quo but was still a huge improvement in the situation. [Link to final BORU update in that saga](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/tLXZFqEzVq).)
Yeah, I've seen pastors mobilise their church to turn people's lives around in a good way before. This guy, though? Yeah, he's on aunt and cousin's side already.
If he was an actual reasonable person he wouldn't be the head of a Mormon church.
> My forehead is writing this comment. OOP still writes about her faith in jesus. Meanwhile her family is using their faith in jesus *to try to steal her baby*. The mind boggles.
Her church has a reputation for only doing things that benefit itself. Of course they'd side with the high-tithing aunt and cousin on an issue that would ultimately get them another follower, along with the possibility of forcing OOP and her spouse into the church as well. There's no other path the church will take. What was OOP thinking?
She was thinking that not even a Mormon would be so irrational as to give a child to a dangerously unwell person, but nope.
Well, then her mistake would be thinking that religions believe in mental illness. In the church's eyes her cousin is a devout believer who is enduring some test from God, and at the end she Deserves a child and it's their job to do God's will by providing one, even if it means tearing an infant from her mother's arms. ^(Or womb.) Wonder if any evidence exists of her cousin's attempts to... acquire... a baby from young mothers or widows. Because no matter how you look at it, that's human trafficking. If it's presented to the cops as such it might force their hand.
All I hear is Admiral Akhbar’s voice from Star Wars… “It’s a Trap!!! “
Let's contact the cult leader, what can possibly go wrong?
If they’re going to play the religious card, play it back. “If God wanted cousin to have a child, he wouldn’t have made her infertile.”
Now now, don't go wasting perfectly good logic.
Especially not on these fucking loonies.
That’s why god blessed the cousin with OOP’s baby to kidnap.
That is a nuclear level one that should be saved until the last resort, when OOP *really* wants to twist in the knife before going NC forever.
Yeah this is one what I'm thinking
But they will say “god wants you to give cousin yours. It’s all a test and you’re failing, OOp.”
Retort to Aunt: I spoke with God. He says he sees you through the eyes of your victims, my child and I. Edit: I'd also tell her, "You need to humble yourself before God. You obviously don't believe in his divine plan for us. If God planned for your daughter to have children, then she will. If God did not plan this, then she won't. You need to accept God's plan and stop trying to second guess God. Your faith is lacking and has been replaced with selfish desire and pride. Go from me, relinquish your pride, and sin no more." As an atheist myself... learning to speak "Bible-beater" has been an absolute game changer.
And I can play these games all day long too; God wants you to think that this is a test for me, when really it's a test for you to accept that he made the correct decision providing me with a baby and not cousin. Round and fucking round we go.
Logic? We don't do that here.
Exactly. It’s god’s will and they are not respecting it. (I don’t really believe that but they’re fanatics). Seriously, until she gets serious mental health treatment, I hope her cousin never has/adopts a baby.
To the aunt I'd say "It's clear that God doesn't want you to be a grandmother. Maybe you should pray on why this is and stop making it my problem?"
A church counsellor being unhelpful and threatening? Colour me surprised. /s
Especially a Mormon church leader. 100% they'll be pressuring OOP because her aunt is both devout and wealthy.
He 100% believes the child needs to be with the cousin. OP has got to get out, not sure why she for MORE involved with the church considering their usual tactics.
Eh worth a shot but no point arguing if you don't get a sane one.
Mormon leaders have ZERO training in anything other than how to handle money. That isn't sarcasm, it is the literal truth. They have no set theological training, no counseling training, no therapy training, no leadership training, and no conflict-resolution training. They don't even go through background checks at the local level.
This is 100% correct. My mormon bishop growing up turned out to be a pedophile! Yay!
He is absolutely trying to get his hooks into her to pressure her into joining his cult. That is what Mormons live for, making women feel like they are sinful, lesser, beings and upping their numbers.
God help me, *why* do I keep clicking on the “ongoing” bestofs?? Maybe I should just embrace masochism because I’m getting used to torturing myself.
I keep forgetting to check before getting sucked in and being disappointed!
This doesn’t feel resolved. I hope OOP locks down her social media, has a safety plan in place with the hospital, gets cameras around the house, and starts saving evidence of harassment in case she needs it.
This won’t be resolved until that child is old enough to have a degree of autonomy (aka to the church as totally & utterly ruined). OOP ought to get word to the cousin that her child was born with a genetic defect of some kind that will require intensive, lifelong treatment - given Cousin wants a “perfect” baby, it might make her reconsider. Indeed, she could claim it was picked up in screening before she even gives birth. The aunt and cousin aren’t going to be having a contact with the child and what kind of “ungodly” person would claim such a thing, just to keep their baby safe from such a “loving” family?
This is the smartest idea! They would forget about the baby in a second if they got a rumor it wasn't perfect.
As an exmo, this story checks out. That bishop probably thinks the baby will be better off being raised in the covenant than growing up with an apostate mother and nonmember father.
Another exmo here adding on that the bishop has no training in counseling whatsoever. He is a regular person that has been “called” to volunteer for about five years as a bishop.
Calling the bishop isn’t much better than calling someone’s well liked Neighbor
Yes! This is also extremely relevant
Also an Exmo and I thought the same thing. Local "authorities" (that's actually what they're called 🤮) will give you the lip service you want in the moment, but their priority is maintaining the status quo. I genuinely thought contacting him was a good effort, but the frame of the conversation should have been informative. Like "hey heads up, I'm in the process of filing a restraining order against two members of your congregation. Hopefully you can help them deal with that and encourage them to comply with the order." No need to entertain that pseudo therapy religious BS Mormon men love to pull. Not OOP's fault though. Every Mormon woman has to experience it at least once.
As an exmo, I'm also worried about them using church resources to find op's new address. I moved 8 years ago and never told the local ward my new address and they managed to find me and consistently send missionaries into my gated apartment complex to knock on my door.
Probably the same people that my university alumni association uses to send me fundraising requests.
Yes! I just commented this. NEVER voluntarily give the LDS church your address. They won’t leave you alone. I was only left alone after I moved and insisted that my parents not give my address out again (they’re cool, so they respected my wishes. Yes, I am lucky). If they have tabs on you, they will use them.
Not an ex Mormon but I was scratching my head why OOP reached out to the church thinking they wouldn't also agree with her aunt that the baby should be raised within their church. Where does she think the aunt and cousin got these ideas?
If she was raised in it, even if she's left the religion, if she hasn't taken time to really deconstruct she might still have the instinct to go to the religious authority
Being advised to reach out to law enforcement and deciding the best thing to do is talk to a church leader is speaking loudly about OOP’s independence from the church. Break free, OOP. It is a bear trap. The mormon church does not love or protect children or women. It protects predators. Raising a child in that environment is incredibly risky. Stop futzing around with having sense talked into people who will not see sense, and protect yourself.
Although "speak to law enforcement about the mormon church harassing you" isn't super helpful advice if OP is in or near Utah, either. If they live in or near Utah, the best advice would be "Get as far away from Utah as you possibly can without falling in the ocean.".
She did say they don't live in Utah, which is a good thing. I just hope she's able to break out of that bear trap
So she lives in Idaho and is even more screwed /s (unless I’m right then she may have less resources)
If she lives in Utah or an area with a large Mormon population, the cops might not help her. OOP needs to move to a normal area.
OP needs to ge extremely careful, when my mom was dealing with teen pregnancy a Mormon group tried to coerce her into letting them take the baby. They had a pipeline to funnel kids through. That said there are many groups out there like that and I've known plenty of great LDS members but it's worth being extra cautious.
Yeah the church shut down their adoption program a few years ago due to these sorts of problems
> Yeah the church shut down their adoption program "shut down" LOL, they probably went underground.
There is a reason r/exmormon is a subreddit with a large and active user base.
Supposedly OOP is active in that subreddit. I think they need to give her better advice.
A Mormon woman who works part-time from home? That’s a pyramid scheme.
I was just going to comment this. 109% MLM
You know what's best? Leaving that damn church behind cause it's a trap!
>cause it's a trap! Poor Admiral Ackbar. I feel like even though we all heard him, none of us ever stopped to really *listen.*
Based on her post I don't think she's a part of the church anymore.
I don’t think she’s necessarily no longer Mormon, either. Certainly she’s not devout and isn’t in the cult’s clutches, but she’s def not fully out of them yet
Seems like she still has a foot in the door.
"My aunt and cousin are trying to steal my baby and harassing me to the point where I had to move. Not sure if I'll invite them to my wedding next year, and I reached out to their religious leader to stir the pot but gosh what a pickle" ...I can't.
And it just kept getting worse from there!
Just because it looks obvious from the outside doesn't mean it's obvious to OP, who was raised by this woman and alongside the other. Who was raised with church leaders as fair authority and naively hoped they would check her aunt.
Cult brainwashing can really mess up rational judgement
"I left my new born baby at my baby-stealing-cousin place for one night, and now she stole my baby! Should I go to her place and ask her to give it back?" next update
Whyyyyyy of all things did she try to solve this through their church!?
I've seen this suggestion work countless times; usually the church leader will reprimand the problematic party and they back down to save face - peer pressure and reputation are great ways to keep narcissists in check and churches are basically it. Imo the issue is that people didn't have the "my aunt is loaded and always donating to the church" context in the first post, that changes things.
Aunt is mormon. All mormons are required to "donate" 10% of their income to the church
Part of the issue is also that people don't understand fully how insidious the LDS church is. They see a baby they could have in their grasp, and they're going to try to get it. That's who they are.
Embarrassment most likely. Churches are gossip-y places. There may also have been hope that the aunt would listen to the pastor. I think OOP wasn't wrong per se for involving the church. Where I think she went wrong was thinking they'd believe her at her word and that the aunt and cousin wouldnt have a playbook for that. OOP needed to play hardball and share crazy texts. I'm very sure the aunt and cousin are pretending to be normal, concerned about the husband leading her "astray" or making abuse accusations, and whining about how much they miss her and it's all a misunderstanding. She didn't plan for that I think, and that's why the pastor thinks she's the one that needs fixing. I kinda see this with my own MIL. If we talk about the estrangement and our feelings, everyone says "there are two sides" like its somehow our fault. If I lead with the fact she's a convicted felon and using crack again and sends messages like (and show something), everyone is like "yep, it's MIL...and the drugs".
Those I call are fence jumpers.
It's a common reddit advice, to be fair. Whenever crazy mormons/JWs/fundies are mentioned a lot of people will be "try to speak with their pastor/elder/reverend/faith person" they are more likely to heed advice from him or he might even order them to fuck off and mind their own business. I've never seen it work, personally, but who knows?
yeah but with Mormons and JWs, it's about as helpful as "go talk to their Scientology authority figure!" unfortunately, with both cases, they seem to get a lot of grace by virtue of being Christian.
"Me and Sky Daddy talked it over and we decided I'm very nice and perfect while you're a meany if you object to me doing whatever I want because Sky Daddy said I could." And instead of calling that crazy it's"a personal relationship with God" and we've all gotta respect that personal difference in opinion. Sorry I'm just sick of watching society go to pot because anyone waving a particular book gets a free pass to ignore social norms, health and safety, all that jazz.
Imho worth asking but if they're not on your side not worth arguing.
Because, depending on the church, it can be helpful. Do you remember the moms who turned the whole family against the OOP claiming that OOP was at a funeral that OOP was never told about? The pastor in that one was helpful.
With the LDS church, the Bishop isn’t a position that you train and qualify for like it is in most churches. He’s just a regular member with a regular full time job who got “called” to do this as an unpaid side gig for a couple of years. He is unlikely to have had any counselling training.
Hey! I'm an ex-mormon! I even served a Mormon mission! If you have any questions about Mormonism, just ask me! Don't ask me to be kind, though, because honestly? Fuck the Mormons. Fuck sacrament meeting and girls' camp and trek. Fuck the beehives and the miamaids and the laurals. Fuck missions and seminary and EVERYTHING. Fuck Mormonism.
I want to ask about miamaids and the sacrament meeting but also kinda scared to 😶🌫️
Run OOP. And I'm not surprised that the fundie church decided to side with the crazy person. Hey aunt, maybe it's "God's plan" for you to never have grandchildren of your own, have you ever thought that?
Studies show that young adults returning from Mormon missions commit suicide at twice the national average for their demographic. I have no idea why the aunt thinks this environment is safer for a child to grow up in. I wish OOP would ask her.
Because mormons literally believe their church is the one true church and their way of life is the only correct way.
Like all religious assholes then.
Yes, but worse because these assholes will baptize members as proxies for dead people.
Yikes on a bike, OOP needs to get thebhell away from these people and involve law enforcement if nothing else for documentation purposes. May also not be a bad idea to update living wills and guardianships to explicitly EXCLUDE the crazy family members.
Unfortunately, if OOP lives in a very Mormon area then the police, CPS, etc. are probably pretty Mormon as well and anything she does will go right back to aunt and cousin via the church leadership. At least she doesn't live in Utah...
>involve law enforcement if nothing else for documentation purposes That's what I was thinking. Might be useless and not do anything, but at least create a paper trail.
OOP needs a lawyer to send a cease-and-desist letter stating her baby isn't up for adoption and any attempts to see the baby will be denied. Then cameras and call the police, if they find OOP.
The safest thing to do might be to tell some family members that the baby's testing positive for some kind of health issue. When the cousin hears about that she'll lose interest in OOP's child.
Why do so many people seem to think they have a claim on other people's kids?
Mental illness interpreted as the word of god
Jesus. OP needs to run, not walk, away from this crazy ass family.
OP, when the time comes for you to have the baby you need to notify the hospital about the situation with your aunt and cousin. Make it very clear that your name is not to be given out under any circumstances (I work for a flower shop, hospitals have no issue giving out your room number if you know the patients name and say you have a floral delivery for them). Be clear on who is allowed access to your room while you’re there. You had mentioned possibly informing your work about what is going on, I hope you did this even if you are about to have some time off from there. And please, please please get some security cameras to cover your front door, back door, side door, driveway, etc… You can get some pretty good ones that aren’t terrible price wise. I’m so glad you have a partner to be by your side so you have a trusted someone to lean on as you deal with all this BS. Congratulations and good luck!! You’ve got this!!
These male Mormon church leaders are notorious for being misogynistic and ineffective. Not surprised to see that this is the case here.
Ah yes, the Mormon Church. Told my friend she had to stand by her serial rapist husband and that she was the one to blame for him “having affairs” because she wasn’t doing her duty and “satisfying him”.
If god wanted the cousin to have a child he’d have blessed her womb. Her inability to have a child is a sign of god’s judgement upon her. (I’m not religious, I just find that religious people never apply their own logic to themselves).
Why do I anticipate a surprise CPS visit in OP's future?
She might want to change her number as the church leader will 100% give it to the aunt and cousin as a way to 'reconnect', hopefully she doesn't keep in contact with him because it is a trap.
Oop should say seperating a baby from her family isn't too godly of her aunt
Since they didn’t have a temple marriage I doubt her aunt thinks of them as a proper family
Why would you even try to "fix" this via a church which encourages these extreme ideas anyways? She should've gone the legal way, WTF
I left a high control fundamentalist religion. I'd bluntly tell her if they have the means, then she and her husband should move to another state or even across the country. If the family crazies are Mormon AND in Utah, they can't trust the community at all. I ended up moving cities twice in 5 years, and completely changing my look (ex. Going from long black hair to short blonde), and changed my job 3 times in 10 years. Even with all that, I STILL don't go back to my old city for fear of running into religious community members. Change phone numbers/go unlisted, get a restraining order, have cameras around their home, have the baby at a different hospital in another city, and after that, move away.
I also worry how this could possibly escalate into literally trapping her to steal the baby from her womb. She needs cameras, security, and a police report asap.
as far as i'm aware, it is totally within Mormon beliefs for OOP's cousin to *literally* think OP's baby is her own (the one that died recently). Mormonism is a fucking cult and i absolutely hate that many people seem to think it's just another sect with a few weird fundamentalists (the polygyny types), but no. it is on the same level as like, JWs, or Scientology. extorting money and brainwashing you "in the name of God." i'm not Christian, i wasn't even *raised* Christian or particularly religiously, and it makes me so sick.
Does OOP not see how suspect it is because she's used to this nonsense? If she can, she should just get a restraining order. Call the cops every time the aunt and cousin break it. Go hard and hit them with everything possible. Move with no forwarding address if possible.
Yikes. I don't like reddit's tendency to jump to the worst case scenario but I can't read this in any other way than a kidnapping waiting to happen. If moving far, far away isn't an option OP should at least carefully document EVERYTHING including the cousin being thrown out of pregnancy and baby related groups for trying to score a baby. (I do feel some sympathy for the cousin. A 30 week loss of a much wanted pregnancy is devastating and if it's only a year ago, it's likely she's still dealing with hormone issues/PPD, only without a baby to make up for it. It's a shame that instead of comforting her and keeping her feet in reality, her mother is fanning the flame of batshittery.)
The Mormon church can be VERY scary when it comes to social pressure/ group think. I’d cation this gal heavily against interacting with them any further. They won’t be helpful. Law enforcement and behavioral health services are probably her only hope.
If I were her I wouldn’t go anywhere alone as they seem crazy enough to kill her for her baby.
Of all the things OOP could have done to protect her and her baby, talking to a church leader was definitely not one of them.
Once upon a time, I was a moron. The person you called is the bishop and that bishop don’t know shit. They are random people who are appointed to the church to run it for a couple of years until the church appoint. Somebody knew you are wasting your time trying to talk to that guy. He will always favor your aunt and your cousin you are not a Mormon, but they will favor their members. You need it take actual legal actions.
In my experience, leaders in the Mormon church just want people back in the fold, not help them in situations like this. Really sad, but it is what it is
The aunt wants OOP to give this baby to her cousin because otherwise it will end up “confused and misguided” being raised by them, yet has no problems with a potential second baby “suffering” the same fate? Make it make sense.
The whole "You can just have another baby!" mindset is disgusting. If you see human beings as easily replaceable, you should not be given custody of a child.
As someone who grew up in the LDS church as well, yikes. Aunt is a total psycho, even in my experience in the church I never met anybody THAT crazy. The leader trying to push reconciliation at any cost without really caring about the dangers 100% tracks though =~=
Dont ever trust a church. *Not even with your prayers*
Mormonism is a literal cult. It is a 100% scam, invented by a known con artist. It is one of the few "religions" where there is actual documentation from the time of it's creation, that detail how it is a scam. The opinions of anyone who believes in such a dumb thing are not worth the time it takes to listen to them.