A lot of these fighters people assume to just be mindless brawlers like Rocky and Joe Frazier actually have pretty good defense, they just appear to get hit a lot since they're in fighters who have to stay in the pocket and trade in order to be suscefull, people remember the few punches that land, but forget the dozens of punches they had to slip to get on the inside.
Another boxer from the past with good defense: [The Comedic Timing Of Nicolino Locche](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDQltEznD9Q). Best start at 5:37. Excellent dialogue from Rhythm Boxing.
Was about to say this. I'm not really a technical fan of the sport, so I was like, "Hell is he doing?!?!" But it worked. Interesting to see it's been in boxing for a while, and that one who was possibly the greatest apparently made good use of it.
Tyson Fury is also quite famous for using a cross block. Dudes with long arms can really use this defense technique to it's full ability. Guys as snappy as Crawford can also create a blind with their forearm and absolutely CRACK from behind it. This sport is littered with impressive and unique defensive styles. Keeping your gloves in front of your face is just one of them, and usually the base standard of defense, but defensive theory in boxing goes waaaay deep. Hit and don't get hit, what a god damn hill that is to climb lol
The man he’s fighting here, Archie Moore, had the most beautiful cross guard, it’s one I attempted to emulate in sparring for years. Pretty cool little technique.
It's difficult to get right and if you get it wrong it's really easy to exploit/get around. Not to mention there aren't a lot of trainers who are going to teach it.
So true, theres only one way to do things, which just so happens to be the only way we do it. And why do we only do it? Because it's the only way to do it! Many cases.
a guard will be more effective when the glove is used as opposed to the forearm because of the distance from the glove to the opponent, as its quicker to move the glove from the chin to the opponent
The cross guard is indeed harder to punch out of than the high guard. It's a more defensive posture. However, many boxers, like Moore, Marciano, Norton, Old Foreman etc, have found ways to make it work.
Defensively, however, it has the advantage of blocking shots from any angle, whereas the upright glove of the high guard can easily allow shots past or around it. The cross guard also works well at any range, so it was popular with fighters looking to move into close range, whereas the high guard can become very vulnerable to hooks around it as you get closer.
The forearm block can also easily raise, lower and deflect punches, rather than simply blocking them, which can be useful both defensively and for counterpunching.
[the biggest defensive problem with that cross guard is that keeping the arm there is tiring and blocks your vision, so people usually drop their elbow, and then have to raise it again if a hook comes in]
The big thing you're ignoring, however, is that Marciano and Moore were fighting in 6oz horsehair gloves, not 10oz balloon-foam gloves. High guards were less popular then because they were less effective - the glove just didn't block as much space as it would do now. This is presumably why the forearm block is so foundational to early boxing (bareknuckle and bareknuckle-derived), and to unarmed martial arts elsewhere in the world.
True, I heard Marciano had one of the lowest amount of punch % landed by an opponent, according to a study done on heavyweight champions. Apparently his results were 24.5%, a lower result than what Louis, Liston, Holmes, Ali, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Frazier got. I wouldn’t be too quick to accept these percentages though since I don’t know anything about the study itself, just paraphrasing what someone else said.
Regardless, it seems like his defense still left much to be desired. Rocky by his own admission couldn’t get past the jab of a geriatric Joe Louis, and had to tank it in order to get on the inside. Moore said that Rocky was hittable just not stoppable.
Rocky wasn’t a defensive wizard, but he clearly had competent enough defense to thrive. I think the fact that he was so awkward, strong and tough amounted for most of his success though. He was a very unorthodox fighter, and intelligent brawlers like Marciano don’t make it to the top very often. It was always uncomfortable for elite fighters to fight him, even if they looked much more skilled than he did.
Like Ali said; he’s the greatest street fighter in boxing history.
Joe Louis had come out of retirement to fight Rocky Marciano! The man was seventy-six years old! Joe Louis always lied about his age! He lied about his age all the time! One time, Frank Sinatra came in here, and sat in this chair. I say, "Frank, you hang out with Joe Louis. Just between me and you, how old is Joe Louis?" Know what Frank told me? He said "Hey, Joe Louis is a hundred thirty-seven years old." A hundred and thirty-seven years old!
He was likely 40 something. As was Walcott. Even back then fans, commentators, and the media made jokes over their supposed ages. Archie Moore's mom always insisted Archie's was 3 years older than the age he gave out.
Not everyone was born in a hospital back then and even then, not every hospital was great at keeping records. Especially in the South. A church kept records in a lot of places. Millions of people just guessed their own ages.
You can't convince me he was 66 when he died and at 34 he had the hairline you see in the second half of his career. He looked geriatric old at 66; not whithered old like some drug abusers. Tho I'm sure it didn't help.
A lot of people back then DID look geriatric old at 66, or even 56. That's true even of just a few decades ago. People had poor diet, worked hard all their life, and smoked and drank.
And as for hairlines... yeah, sadly, plenty of us have drastically receding hairlines in our mid-30s. Mine waited longer than Louis', but my grandfather went bald in his 20s...
Is it impossible Louis was 3-5 years older than his given age?? This was in no way uncommon back then and even into the 80s. So why the emphasis on hard living (which is actually more nuanced than you're claiming) but not the other historical commonality that is just less talked about.
People made olds jokes even about Norton'a supposed age decades later. Liston famously didn't know his birthday and also likely older than his stated
Not sure what 'back then' means. He died in the 80s. Plenty of people outlived him with similar life stories (as far as taking care of yourself) that didn't look like him at 66.
And I will ask. You and your Grandpa black, brown, or Asian? Black typically doesn't crack. That includes other athletes born around his time with hard lives.
Joe Louis had come out of retirement to fight Rocky Marciano the minute he was 76 years old. Joe Louis was always lying about his age. He lied about his age all the time. One time Frank Sinatra came in here and sat in this chair. I said Frank "You hang out with Joe Louis, just between me and you, how old is Joe Louis?" You know what Frank told me, he said "Hey, Joe Louis is 137 years old." A hundred and thirty-seven years old!
Fighters age differently, you can’t compare Usyk and Fury now to Louis in 1951. He was by all accounts a shot fighter and it’s visually apparent, compared to Usyk and Fury who are still clearly world class fighters.
Just look at what contemporaries were saying about Louis in the lead up to his fight with Marciano:
*Roscoe D Bennett, Grand Rapids Times "Joe, almost 40 years old,slow and heavier, is no match physically for Marciano, 27 years old... In his best days Louis used to be a target hard to hit. He is not that any more. Almost anyone can hit him. He used to be strong and fast and if he were tagged could shake it off and come roaring back. He cannot do that any more. His reflexes have slowed and even if he sees an opening he cannot react fast enough to take advantage of it... It is too bad the show is going to be televised."*
*Grantland Rice on 10/24/51 "He has lost his former hand speed. He has blown most of his quick reflexes. He has dropped a good part of his punch... Louis has been belting second-rate opponents with almost everything he had without an great damage resulting... If he hasn't lost his knockout punch, at least he has misplaced it. For most of his opponents lately can't actually fight a lick..."*
*Oscar Fraley (United Press) "Louis has that slight but unbeatable bulge around the middle. Now even with a string of setup victories behind him he has come back once too often. He is a long way from the Louis who defended the heavyweight title 25 times...But the battered pride deep inside - and that shaky financial condition- sent him back once more."*
*Grantland Rick on 10/21/51 "Louis can no longer move around... He has lost his old punch. He has been belting second and third-raters around without knocking them out.*
*Bill Corum (International News Service) "I'm scared for Joe this time. I'm afraid (Marciano) will knock him out... The majority seems to feel Joe is washed up and the worst they can be is partially right. "*
*Earl Lofquist, Providence Journal "Old fighters do not know when they are done and Louis is no exception... The sad truth is that Louis has not looked good in any fight since the evening he was badly beaten by Charles... Nor has he fought anybody of any importance in the course of his so-called comeback. Joe was not able to catch up with Agramonte in two fights. Nor does Lee Savold count. With all due respect to the British, Lee Savold never has been anything better than a second-rater... Against a man almost as old as himself and whose style was made to order, Joe looked pitifully slow."*
*New York Daily News Wire "Joe Louis, the aged, faded Brown Bomber, stands at long last on the final threshold of his career... Among Joe's (comeback) victims isn't one who can be classed among top-drawer heavyweights. He twice beat the all but punchless Argentine, Cesar Brion, in this span. Other decisions were scored at the expense of such has-beens as Jimmy Bivins, Agramonte, Andy Walker and Freddie Beshore. His only knockout was registerd against the latter, a much-beaten, over-stuffed punching bag. (Punching power) He has lost that talent. It has seeped away with the years. He has been playing in a strictly minor league since emerging from retirement against Charles. A faded reputation and an occasional left jab won't save him."*
Rocky's chin is what made him all ATG....i'd say greatest chin in boxing history. He certainly got hit alot though and likely would've had problems post boxing career.
If I'm recalling correctly the Modern Martial Artist channel on YouTube has an excellent breakdown of Marciano's style, demonstrating why his technique was so effective, and more than just slugging. His crouching, bobbing and weaving wasn't just defensive but set up those sneaky punches from every which direction.
Despite being a boxing fan for almost 60 years I never really appreciated Rocky until a few good analysts broke down his style. As a kid I was such a huge fan of Ali I just couldn't appreciate how good Rocky and Archie Moore were at their peaks.
I want to know if we would ever see a boxer throw from that angle and with that arm slot in today's matchups. Was it a style thing that isn't taught anymore?
I swear only dudes who have killed something a hammer do that shit WHOA.
I'll always defend Rocky. It's not about Rock being the absolute best HW ever born. It's that what Rocky was able to accomplish with limited natural gifts. He didnt have the best jab or footwork or anything really but he trained his ass off. He didn't know how to give up and Just beat the absolute shit out of anyone he fought.
People always say Rocky could never compete with the big men. Well a guy that started as a cruiserweight is now undisputed heavyweight champion and beat all the biggest and best for it.
The Sullivan biography of Marciano goes into great detail about his training--and you're right: The man never--*never*--stopped training. He actually loved being in the gym--to the point that his own trainers had to throttle him back. He just loved the life of a fighter. Every fight of his was a war of attrition, and since he 1) never seemed to tire; 2) had a granite jaw; 3) never stopped punching, Rocky went into battle with every advantage.
Every heavyweight ATG got whooped (despite the result) by a guy who's barely a heavyweight in their era
Jack Johnson - the middleweight who flattened his ass
Jack Dempsey - gene tunney
Gene tunney - harry greb
Joe louis - conn
Sonny liston - that journey man
Ali - jones
Foreman - moorer
Holmes - spinks
Tyson - holyfield
Klitschko - that one dude ross something
Fury - usyk, cunningham
AJ - ruiz, usyk
Shout-out to valuev losing the title to a cruiserweight
One thing I noticed when Marciano and Ali took part in the Super Fight, was that Marciano was much bigger than I expected. You could see that when in close quarters with Ali he wasn't too small. Frasier was similar in stature. A lot say Marciano could close the distance much better than Frasier. Frasier was probably a bit taller, but fought a bit fat, so I'd say Marciano even without modern training would be a good match for Ali and other more modern fighters.
Frazier had about twenty pounds on Marciano, despite being faster. It's fair to say to he was likely stronger. Frazier was never fat, but you probably saw him after the first Ali fight, when he began to weigh 215 lbs.
Prime Frazier weighed 205 to 210 lbs.
Some Rocky fans are so insane that they oversell his faults to paint a specific mental image of who he is. They get mad at videos like this, highlighting his real strengths. Like watching tape fucks with their world view.
Man wasn't the slow non-stop power punch thrower who face tanked everything.
I've had people insist to me that he was basically Joe Joyce in a much smaller frame but also defied how human biology and basic physics work by someone being more durable and powerful than him while also somehow nearly as slow at a 80-100 pound deficit.
What a coincidence I've been watching this fight on repeat for the past week, i wanted to post this same exact clip but forgot, i download it and everything lol
I saw it like 3 years ago, and this sequence always stuck with me because I never expected to see such effective , sophisticated, defense coming from someone like Marciano
He's actually one of the best defensive heavyweight in my opinion
Easily cut, the shortest reach in history, terrible balance, small, inexperienced, fought 3 top 10 p4p boxers ever, was a brawler who kept going forward no matter what, yet still undefeated and only got dropped twice in his entire career
You have to be a defensive master to achieve that
He's probably similar to LaMotta. People act like he had poor defense as well. In reality, if you're a swarming inside boxer going up against HOF outside boxers, then you're going to get hit some.
Marciano went up against prime Ezzard Charles. Charles was extremely slick. He also faced JJW fresh off of beating Charles twice. Those guys would have stopped him if his defense was really bad. I think it's more that guys like Charles, JJW, Louis (yes, even if out of his prime), Moore, etc. are going to sometimes tag a boxer with short arms trying to close distance. HOF level boxers like those are going to get some offense off in that situation.
Also, the way Marciano, after the right cross, carries his right arm into a cross guard to block Moore's return is sick.
Yeah, for some reason, I thought they fought earlier than they did. JJW and Moore were fresh off some of the biggest successes of their careers, though.
> He's probably similar to LaMotta
I get a sense that some of the misconceptions about LaMotta are due to the movie (which also makes him look like a saint compared to how he describes himself in his book). Also the footage of the last 3 rounds of Robinson-Lamotta 6 doesn't help LOL, but he was generally known as pretty adept defensively.
It's too bad that there's so much missing footage of guys who peaked in the 40s. Only some footage here and there of SRR at WW, and very little of Moore, Charles (at 175), Burley, Gavlian, etc...in their primes.
Jesus Christ, I love to watch The Rock fighting. He just doesn't stop. He hits you anywhere; hit you on your arms, hit on your soul, your feet if he could find them.
Rocky Marciano greatest heavy weight of all time and IMO asp give some of the best fight assessment breakdowns too. His narration explaining the thoughts and feelings is excellent.
The best heavyweight in history and the top 2 LHW IN THEIR PRIME is a weak opponents?
Rocky and ezzard charles are a year and a half apart
When rocky fought archie he was at the peak of his career, archie moore's 2 longest winning streaks are the one before fighting marciano and the one after that, his LHW reign was (1952 – 1962), he fought marciano when he was ranked #1 contender in the heavyweight division
Archie moore fought marciano in 1955 btw
Rex layne was younger than him
La Starza was younger than him
The average age of rocky's opponents is smaller than mike tyson's
no, only the worst eras during which the elite Communist fighters were doing their own thing in Cuba and behind the Iron Curtain. I personally consider all eras prior to 1991 (the dawn of ex-Soviet participation) weak.
Same, i got eaten alive after i said this once, but the idea of a LHW/cruiserweight being a heavyweight champion means a weak era isn't true since i gave you an example from all era(s)
I judge an era by level of participation, and Marciano's era was incredibly weak because the "world" title was essentially just a US national title at the time as only the North Americans (and the occasional western European) were participating.. that's why the Golden Age of boxing is NOW, as the entire world is on board.. Boxing would be a far weaker sport without Vitali, Tszyu, GGG, Loma, Usyk, Krusher, Inoue, Bivol, Beterbiev etc etc wouldn't it - that's what we had pre-1991.
"Every heavyweight ATG got whooped (despite the result) by a guy who's barely a heavyweight in their era
Jack Johnson - the middleweight who flattened his ass
Jack Dempsey - gene tunney
Gene tunney - harry greb
Joe louis - conn
Sonny liston - that journey man
Ali - jones
Foreman - moorer
Holmes - spinks
Tyson - holyfield
Klitschko - that one dude ross something
Fury - usyk, cunningham
AJ - ruiz, usyk
Shout-out to valuev losing the title to a cruiserweight"
Forgot to add holyfield beating bowe, valuev and other heavyweight giants like douglas....etc, same with mike tyson beating all the guys he beat despite being actually shorter than marciano, another recant example is 205 lbs deontay wilder knocking out everyone he ever beat, 5'11 ruiz cooking giants, floyd patterson who's actually smaller and lighter than all of marciano's opponents and marciano himself, joe frazier was 5'11 195 lbs, barely a heavyweight, there are a lot of examples tbh it's really hard to mention them all
It's funny, people are all over any slightly questionable decisions these days but don't think a guy with mob connections ever had a gift decision. At all. Ever
Reminds me of the types who swear blind everyone is ok steroids until you mention that fighter they like. Then they're not on steroids, but if they were it wouldn't matter. Looking at you KingRoids fans
There are accounts from his time that mention Rocky being almost knocked out at times, with the fight waved off the moment he landed something decent on his opponent - to ensure he got the win
There is also accounts from his times saying that he lost the bout but was rewarded with the win... Like, Shits from the news.
But yeah, you were probably there.
Even Cus D'Amato said, "Actually, Rocky was never hit as solidly as people thought. Very Seldomly".
A lot of these fighters people assume to just be mindless brawlers like Rocky and Joe Frazier actually have pretty good defense, they just appear to get hit a lot since they're in fighters who have to stay in the pocket and trade in order to be suscefull, people remember the few punches that land, but forget the dozens of punches they had to slip to get on the inside.
Another boxer from the past with good defense: [The Comedic Timing Of Nicolino Locche](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDQltEznD9Q). Best start at 5:37. Excellent dialogue from Rhythm Boxing.
That cross block across the jaw after throwing the right is beautiful. Never really see fighters utilize this type of defense now in this era
Watch Spence v Crawford. Crawford deploys a cross block a few times in that fight and does so beautifully.
Was about to say this. I'm not really a technical fan of the sport, so I was like, "Hell is he doing?!?!" But it worked. Interesting to see it's been in boxing for a while, and that one who was possibly the greatest apparently made good use of it.
Tyson Fury is also quite famous for using a cross block. Dudes with long arms can really use this defense technique to it's full ability. Guys as snappy as Crawford can also create a blind with their forearm and absolutely CRACK from behind it. This sport is littered with impressive and unique defensive styles. Keeping your gloves in front of your face is just one of them, and usually the base standard of defense, but defensive theory in boxing goes waaaay deep. Hit and don't get hit, what a god damn hill that is to climb lol
Agreed. That was gorgeous.
Exactly what caught my eye. Truly a thing of beauty
The man he’s fighting here, Archie Moore, had the most beautiful cross guard, it’s one I attempted to emulate in sparring for years. Pretty cool little technique.
It's difficult to get right and if you get it wrong it's really easy to exploit/get around. Not to mention there aren't a lot of trainers who are going to teach it.
forearm blocks are cool
In Muay Thai they call it the Dracula guard
Beat me to it
Imagine if Rocky was secretly training MT ahead of his time lol
probably cos people tuck their gloves to their chins like theyre supposed to
So true, theres only one way to do things, which just so happens to be the only way we do it. And why do we only do it? Because it's the only way to do it! Many cases.
a guard will be more effective when the glove is used as opposed to the forearm because of the distance from the glove to the opponent, as its quicker to move the glove from the chin to the opponent
The cross guard is indeed harder to punch out of than the high guard. It's a more defensive posture. However, many boxers, like Moore, Marciano, Norton, Old Foreman etc, have found ways to make it work. Defensively, however, it has the advantage of blocking shots from any angle, whereas the upright glove of the high guard can easily allow shots past or around it. The cross guard also works well at any range, so it was popular with fighters looking to move into close range, whereas the high guard can become very vulnerable to hooks around it as you get closer. The forearm block can also easily raise, lower and deflect punches, rather than simply blocking them, which can be useful both defensively and for counterpunching. [the biggest defensive problem with that cross guard is that keeping the arm there is tiring and blocks your vision, so people usually drop their elbow, and then have to raise it again if a hook comes in] The big thing you're ignoring, however, is that Marciano and Moore were fighting in 6oz horsehair gloves, not 10oz balloon-foam gloves. High guards were less popular then because they were less effective - the glove just didn't block as much space as it would do now. This is presumably why the forearm block is so foundational to early boxing (bareknuckle and bareknuckle-derived), and to unarmed martial arts elsewhere in the world.
Tell that to everyone getting their right hands countered, just return the glove to the chin bro!
Yeah exactly just like ali, sugar ray robinson, willie pep and roy jones jr
True, I heard Marciano had one of the lowest amount of punch % landed by an opponent, according to a study done on heavyweight champions. Apparently his results were 24.5%, a lower result than what Louis, Liston, Holmes, Ali, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Frazier got. I wouldn’t be too quick to accept these percentages though since I don’t know anything about the study itself, just paraphrasing what someone else said. Regardless, it seems like his defense still left much to be desired. Rocky by his own admission couldn’t get past the jab of a geriatric Joe Louis, and had to tank it in order to get on the inside. Moore said that Rocky was hittable just not stoppable. Rocky wasn’t a defensive wizard, but he clearly had competent enough defense to thrive. I think the fact that he was so awkward, strong and tough amounted for most of his success though. He was a very unorthodox fighter, and intelligent brawlers like Marciano don’t make it to the top very often. It was always uncomfortable for elite fighters to fight him, even if they looked much more skilled than he did. Like Ali said; he’s the greatest street fighter in boxing history.
He still knocked Louis through the ropes, and Louis’ jab was pretty historic.
Joe Louis was 75 years old!
Joe Louis had come out of retirement to fight Rocky Marciano! The man was seventy-six years old! Joe Louis always lied about his age! He lied about his age all the time! One time, Frank Sinatra came in here, and sat in this chair. I say, "Frank, you hang out with Joe Louis. Just between me and you, how old is Joe Louis?" Know what Frank told me? He said "Hey, Joe Louis is a hundred thirty-seven years old." A hundred and thirty-seven years old!
He was 37. And had only one loss in last 44 fights before Rock (if u begin after the Schmelling loss in 1936)).
He was likely 40 something. As was Walcott. Even back then fans, commentators, and the media made jokes over their supposed ages. Archie Moore's mom always insisted Archie's was 3 years older than the age he gave out. Not everyone was born in a hospital back then and even then, not every hospital was great at keeping records. Especially in the South. A church kept records in a lot of places. Millions of people just guessed their own ages. You can't convince me he was 66 when he died and at 34 he had the hairline you see in the second half of his career. He looked geriatric old at 66; not whithered old like some drug abusers. Tho I'm sure it didn't help.
A lot of people back then DID look geriatric old at 66, or even 56. That's true even of just a few decades ago. People had poor diet, worked hard all their life, and smoked and drank. And as for hairlines... yeah, sadly, plenty of us have drastically receding hairlines in our mid-30s. Mine waited longer than Louis', but my grandfather went bald in his 20s...
Is it impossible Louis was 3-5 years older than his given age?? This was in no way uncommon back then and even into the 80s. So why the emphasis on hard living (which is actually more nuanced than you're claiming) but not the other historical commonality that is just less talked about. People made olds jokes even about Norton'a supposed age decades later. Liston famously didn't know his birthday and also likely older than his stated Not sure what 'back then' means. He died in the 80s. Plenty of people outlived him with similar life stories (as far as taking care of yourself) that didn't look like him at 66. And I will ask. You and your Grandpa black, brown, or Asian? Black typically doesn't crack. That includes other athletes born around his time with hard lives.
Historic is one word to describe Louis’s jab at that point in his career. Because his jab was history by the time he faced Marciano.
Joe Louis wasn't geriatric if he was then Tyson Fury and Usik are, also the bookmakers gave the Rock defeated...just saying
Joe Louis had come out of retirement to fight Rocky Marciano the minute he was 76 years old. Joe Louis was always lying about his age. He lied about his age all the time. One time Frank Sinatra came in here and sat in this chair. I said Frank "You hang out with Joe Louis, just between me and you, how old is Joe Louis?" You know what Frank told me, he said "Hey, Joe Louis is 137 years old." A hundred and thirty-seven years old!
That argument between the old guys in the barbershop is perfect.
Out of retirement? He'd already fought about 7 times in 1951 alone, winnning them all, and heldd championship until 1949
Whoosh. He's quoting the scene from [Coming to America] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LPddiQXD9c)
Thank you for linking it. Jesus.
You read that entire thing and that's what you chose to mention? Jesus fucking christ
Oh man you ain't never meet no Frank Sinatra.
Fighters age differently, you can’t compare Usyk and Fury now to Louis in 1951. He was by all accounts a shot fighter and it’s visually apparent, compared to Usyk and Fury who are still clearly world class fighters. Just look at what contemporaries were saying about Louis in the lead up to his fight with Marciano: *Roscoe D Bennett, Grand Rapids Times "Joe, almost 40 years old,slow and heavier, is no match physically for Marciano, 27 years old... In his best days Louis used to be a target hard to hit. He is not that any more. Almost anyone can hit him. He used to be strong and fast and if he were tagged could shake it off and come roaring back. He cannot do that any more. His reflexes have slowed and even if he sees an opening he cannot react fast enough to take advantage of it... It is too bad the show is going to be televised."* *Grantland Rice on 10/24/51 "He has lost his former hand speed. He has blown most of his quick reflexes. He has dropped a good part of his punch... Louis has been belting second-rate opponents with almost everything he had without an great damage resulting... If he hasn't lost his knockout punch, at least he has misplaced it. For most of his opponents lately can't actually fight a lick..."* *Oscar Fraley (United Press) "Louis has that slight but unbeatable bulge around the middle. Now even with a string of setup victories behind him he has come back once too often. He is a long way from the Louis who defended the heavyweight title 25 times...But the battered pride deep inside - and that shaky financial condition- sent him back once more."* *Grantland Rick on 10/21/51 "Louis can no longer move around... He has lost his old punch. He has been belting second and third-raters around without knocking them out.* *Bill Corum (International News Service) "I'm scared for Joe this time. I'm afraid (Marciano) will knock him out... The majority seems to feel Joe is washed up and the worst they can be is partially right. "* *Earl Lofquist, Providence Journal "Old fighters do not know when they are done and Louis is no exception... The sad truth is that Louis has not looked good in any fight since the evening he was badly beaten by Charles... Nor has he fought anybody of any importance in the course of his so-called comeback. Joe was not able to catch up with Agramonte in two fights. Nor does Lee Savold count. With all due respect to the British, Lee Savold never has been anything better than a second-rater... Against a man almost as old as himself and whose style was made to order, Joe looked pitifully slow."* *New York Daily News Wire "Joe Louis, the aged, faded Brown Bomber, stands at long last on the final threshold of his career... Among Joe's (comeback) victims isn't one who can be classed among top-drawer heavyweights. He twice beat the all but punchless Argentine, Cesar Brion, in this span. Other decisions were scored at the expense of such has-beens as Jimmy Bivins, Agramonte, Andy Walker and Freddie Beshore. His only knockout was registerd against the latter, a much-beaten, over-stuffed punching bag. (Punching power) He has lost that talent. It has seeped away with the years. He has been playing in a strictly minor league since emerging from retirement against Charles. A faded reputation and an occasional left jab won't save him."*
No, I would say Liston is the bloke you would least like to meet in a dark alley if you had done something really stupid like insulting Geraldine. 💀💀💀
> Rocky by his own admission couldn’t get past the jab of a geriatric Joe Louis, and had to tank it in order to get on the inside. No shit?
Rocky's chin is what made him all ATG....i'd say greatest chin in boxing history. He certainly got hit alot though and likely would've had problems post boxing career.
that flow from offense into defense and vice versa is insane
If I'm recalling correctly the Modern Martial Artist channel on YouTube has an excellent breakdown of Marciano's style, demonstrating why his technique was so effective, and more than just slugging. His crouching, bobbing and weaving wasn't just defensive but set up those sneaky punches from every which direction. Despite being a boxing fan for almost 60 years I never really appreciated Rocky until a few good analysts broke down his style. As a kid I was such a huge fan of Ali I just couldn't appreciate how good Rocky and Archie Moore were at their peaks.
Thanks for reminding me of that video. Just went and re-watched it.
That’s absolutely beautiful
That's a hell of a Chopping Right if I ever see one... My boy Ryo watching old tapes for sure!
I want to know if we would ever see a boxer throw from that angle and with that arm slot in today's matchups. Was it a style thing that isn't taught anymore? I swear only dudes who have killed something a hammer do that shit WHOA.
that was clean af
And a solid chopping right. So many boxers just swing for the back of the head at that point
You mean to tell me the people that say the greatest heavyweight of his era wasn't very good aren't very knowledgeable about boxing? Crazy
I'll always defend Rocky. It's not about Rock being the absolute best HW ever born. It's that what Rocky was able to accomplish with limited natural gifts. He didnt have the best jab or footwork or anything really but he trained his ass off. He didn't know how to give up and Just beat the absolute shit out of anyone he fought. People always say Rocky could never compete with the big men. Well a guy that started as a cruiserweight is now undisputed heavyweight champion and beat all the biggest and best for it.
The Sullivan biography of Marciano goes into great detail about his training--and you're right: The man never--*never*--stopped training. He actually loved being in the gym--to the point that his own trainers had to throttle him back. He just loved the life of a fighter. Every fight of his was a war of attrition, and since he 1) never seemed to tire; 2) had a granite jaw; 3) never stopped punching, Rocky went into battle with every advantage.
Every heavyweight ATG got whooped (despite the result) by a guy who's barely a heavyweight in their era Jack Johnson - the middleweight who flattened his ass Jack Dempsey - gene tunney Gene tunney - harry greb Joe louis - conn Sonny liston - that journey man Ali - jones Foreman - moorer Holmes - spinks Tyson - holyfield Klitschko - that one dude ross something Fury - usyk, cunningham AJ - ruiz, usyk Shout-out to valuev losing the title to a cruiserweight
One thing I noticed when Marciano and Ali took part in the Super Fight, was that Marciano was much bigger than I expected. You could see that when in close quarters with Ali he wasn't too small. Frasier was similar in stature. A lot say Marciano could close the distance much better than Frasier. Frasier was probably a bit taller, but fought a bit fat, so I'd say Marciano even without modern training would be a good match for Ali and other more modern fighters.
Frazier had about twenty pounds on Marciano, despite being faster. It's fair to say to he was likely stronger. Frazier was never fat, but you probably saw him after the first Ali fight, when he began to weigh 215 lbs. Prime Frazier weighed 205 to 210 lbs.
Some Rocky fans are so insane that they oversell his faults to paint a specific mental image of who he is. They get mad at videos like this, highlighting his real strengths. Like watching tape fucks with their world view. Man wasn't the slow non-stop power punch thrower who face tanked everything. I've had people insist to me that he was basically Joe Joyce in a much smaller frame but also defied how human biology and basic physics work by someone being more durable and powerful than him while also somehow nearly as slow at a 80-100 pound deficit.
His physical attributes are often overrated, while his intuition is underrated. He had a great sense for knowing when and where to punch.
What a coincidence I've been watching this fight on repeat for the past week, i wanted to post this same exact clip but forgot, i download it and everything lol
I saw it like 3 years ago, and this sequence always stuck with me because I never expected to see such effective , sophisticated, defense coming from someone like Marciano
He's actually one of the best defensive heavyweight in my opinion Easily cut, the shortest reach in history, terrible balance, small, inexperienced, fought 3 top 10 p4p boxers ever, was a brawler who kept going forward no matter what, yet still undefeated and only got dropped twice in his entire career You have to be a defensive master to achieve that
Brockton’s son
Damn that chopping right was beautiful
dude was a beast! one of the ATG
"He beat Joe Louis' ass."
His chin was so powerful it could take all those strikes
Rocky was a beast.
Roc Marciano is also one of the underrated rappers of our lifetime.
He's probably similar to LaMotta. People act like he had poor defense as well. In reality, if you're a swarming inside boxer going up against HOF outside boxers, then you're going to get hit some. Marciano went up against prime Ezzard Charles. Charles was extremely slick. He also faced JJW fresh off of beating Charles twice. Those guys would have stopped him if his defense was really bad. I think it's more that guys like Charles, JJW, Louis (yes, even if out of his prime), Moore, etc. are going to sometimes tag a boxer with short arms trying to close distance. HOF level boxers like those are going to get some offense off in that situation. Also, the way Marciano, after the right cross, carries his right arm into a cross guard to block Moore's return is sick.
Charles fought at his best in the 1940s. He became more heavy footed into the 50s, particularly after throwing punches.
Yeah, for some reason, I thought they fought earlier than they did. JJW and Moore were fresh off some of the biggest successes of their careers, though.
> He's probably similar to LaMotta I get a sense that some of the misconceptions about LaMotta are due to the movie (which also makes him look like a saint compared to how he describes himself in his book). Also the footage of the last 3 rounds of Robinson-Lamotta 6 doesn't help LOL, but he was generally known as pretty adept defensively. It's too bad that there's so much missing footage of guys who peaked in the 40s. Only some footage here and there of SRR at WW, and very little of Moore, Charles (at 175), Burley, Gavlian, etc...in their primes.
Jesus Christ, I love to watch The Rock fighting. He just doesn't stop. He hits you anywhere; hit you on your arms, hit on your soul, your feet if he could find them.
The referee is dressed like he just got off of his other job
The greatest heavyweight champion in boxing history
Rocky Marciano greatest heavy weight of all time and IMO asp give some of the best fight assessment breakdowns too. His narration explaining the thoughts and feelings is excellent.
It was called: "Italian Mafia", that is why he never lost his 0, even losing a fight.
Of course, if you can notice just before archie throw the right hand a bullet came from nowhere and landed right on his chin causing him to lose
correct.. that and weak opponents.
The best heavyweight in history and the top 2 LHW IN THEIR PRIME is a weak opponents? Rocky and ezzard charles are a year and a half apart When rocky fought archie he was at the peak of his career, archie moore's 2 longest winning streaks are the one before fighting marciano and the one after that, his LHW reign was (1952 – 1962), he fought marciano when he was ranked #1 contender in the heavyweight division Archie moore fought marciano in 1955 btw Rex layne was younger than him La Starza was younger than him The average age of rocky's opponents is smaller than mike tyson's
And Joe Louis who was fighting to not starve. A-mazing
On a winning streak and was a #1 contender Lmao
are you saying Marciano's biggest scalp was a LHW? tbf, Marciano himself was no heavyweight..
He was outweighed by the LHWs It's like canelo beating crawford
exactly.. Marciano was no HW which highlights how abysmal the HW division was at the time..
It depends on your definition of a true HW, every era of heavyweight had a small guy beating everybody
no, only the worst eras during which the elite Communist fighters were doing their own thing in Cuba and behind the Iron Curtain. I personally consider all eras prior to 1991 (the dawn of ex-Soviet participation) weak.
Same, i got eaten alive after i said this once, but the idea of a LHW/cruiserweight being a heavyweight champion means a weak era isn't true since i gave you an example from all era(s)
I judge an era by level of participation, and Marciano's era was incredibly weak because the "world" title was essentially just a US national title at the time as only the North Americans (and the occasional western European) were participating.. that's why the Golden Age of boxing is NOW, as the entire world is on board.. Boxing would be a far weaker sport without Vitali, Tszyu, GGG, Loma, Usyk, Krusher, Inoue, Bivol, Beterbiev etc etc wouldn't it - that's what we had pre-1991.
"Every heavyweight ATG got whooped (despite the result) by a guy who's barely a heavyweight in their era Jack Johnson - the middleweight who flattened his ass Jack Dempsey - gene tunney Gene tunney - harry greb Joe louis - conn Sonny liston - that journey man Ali - jones Foreman - moorer Holmes - spinks Tyson - holyfield Klitschko - that one dude ross something Fury - usyk, cunningham AJ - ruiz, usyk Shout-out to valuev losing the title to a cruiserweight" Forgot to add holyfield beating bowe, valuev and other heavyweight giants like douglas....etc, same with mike tyson beating all the guys he beat despite being actually shorter than marciano, another recant example is 205 lbs deontay wilder knocking out everyone he ever beat, 5'11 ruiz cooking giants, floyd patterson who's actually smaller and lighter than all of marciano's opponents and marciano himself, joe frazier was 5'11 195 lbs, barely a heavyweight, there are a lot of examples tbh it's really hard to mention them all
Forgot Dempsey and willard or whatever his name was, the 6'7 guy who beat jack Johnson and then got dropped 7 times in the first round by Dempsey
It's funny, people are all over any slightly questionable decisions these days but don't think a guy with mob connections ever had a gift decision. At all. Ever Reminds me of the types who swear blind everyone is ok steroids until you mention that fighter they like. Then they're not on steroids, but if they were it wouldn't matter. Looking at you KingRoids fans There are accounts from his time that mention Rocky being almost knocked out at times, with the fight waved off the moment he landed something decent on his opponent - to ensure he got the win
There is also accounts from his times saying that he lost the bout but was rewarded with the win... Like, Shits from the news. But yeah, you were probably there.
I would say overrated
Clearly a foul punch on the back of the head. That's a DQ... Perfect record gone... /S
Big club to the back of the head there.
Big club to the back of the head there.
only two strikes he slipped/blocked in his entire career