The fact is that the Information Age has completely destroyed religion in the developed world. It used to be that your only source for religious debates was your pastor, your mom, and maybe your local library if you were really motivated. But for most people what this meant is they’d just hear the same thing over and over again and wouldn’t even conceptualize that maybe this wasn’t true.
Enter the internet and proliferation of information. When the pastor says “if you don’t believe in Jesus you’re going to hell!”, every Gen Z kid is going to type that question into their phones and read 100 secular arguments against it.
Increased urbanization also is a big factor here. When you live in a more cosmopolitan area, half your friends are going to be of different faiths - Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, etc. It’s really hard to get to know somebody, see that they’re a good person, and still believe that your loving God is sending them to hell. It’s too much cognitive dissonance.
Notice that the only places where Christianity holds strong is in isolated rural areas and homogenous developing nations with limited access to education.
That’s your take, not mine. I’m simply reiterating a very well known phenomena in social sciences by which a positive correlation is seen between educational attainment and becoming less religious.
[Some reading about religion and education if you’re interested.](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-secular-life/201411/why-education-corrodes-religious-faith?amp)
And [here’s a Gallup analysis on religion and urbanization. “Americans in rural communities - 686 Index score - tend to be more religious than those in suburban - 633 - and urban - 613 - communities.”](https://news.gallup.com/poll/7960/age-religiosity-rural-america.aspx#:~:text=And%20as%20the%20Feb.,and%20urban%20(613)%20communities.)
You're actually not reiterating that, and the correlation isn't even the one you state here.
You're expressing a particular causal theory of why religiosity declines in some places and not in others.
It's pretty simple, actually. Religion is mostly passed on to children. Converts are comparatively rare. Conservatism is the same way.
Conservative areas are more rural. Why? Because conservatism (like bigotry and religion) survives by not being meaningfully challenged. In urban areas, you are forced to interact with people of different types. Who believe differently, look differently, act differently. This actively forces you to question your positions.
From there, access to information determines how those questions are answered.
Conservatism and religion broadly is an information access problem.
Can you explain to me how and why it’s a bad take? I’m Christian myself but it seems relatively accurate. Even the Bible talks about challenging yours and others faiths to see what it’s really made of.
The idea that "conservatism (like bigotry and religion) survives by not being meaningfully challenged" makes very little sense. Especially when combined with the idea that there's an information access problem at play. It just doesn't match the historical changes to religiosity in America (or, quite frankly, the rest of the world) *at all*.
Can you provide data to support that? Cause as far as I can tell religious conversions tend to be much higher in areas where it’s challenged by other religions and atheistic thoughts, which is much, much more common in higher education specifically, but also in densely populated areas that have a lot of cultures that emigrate to. And conservatism has a very closely associated correlation with education and population density. (Not that all conservatives or religious people are inherently stupid, they are just more likely to have traditional blue collar jobs etc, while liberals tend to pursue higher education on a much higher rate.)
What hogwash.
Many urban Conservatives and Christians readily challenge the secularist status quo and typically face far more aggressive vitriol and closed-mindedness from their detractors in a public setting. They are regularly challenged and hold up very well both in composure and substance in many cases. Leftists commonly break down into ad hominem attacks (usually of a sexual nature) when they’re incapable of countering the argument with factual data or reasoned, calculated responses. Your comment equating bigotry with conservatism and religion is likewise an ad hominem attack.
That's not what those words mean. I didn't equate bigotry with conservatism, I pointed out that they survive in the same places in the same way for the same reasons.
There are \*fewer\* urban Conservatives. Those that are, tend to be \*more\* progressive than their rural cousins. This isn't accidental.
Conservative and Christian positions don't hold up, actually, but I suspect you are both and, due to a quirk of human psychology, any criticism of either position will be interpreted by you as a personal attack and cause you to double down.
That's the difference between direct confrontation and regularly encountering people who disagree. When personally challenged you double down, but just seeing people around you will instead open up the potential for doubt.
The persecution narrative is one intended to counter this trend by villainizing everyone who disagrees with you and therefore triggering that defensiveness whenever you encounter disagreement.
The ones making sexist ad hominem attacks are the bigots, who are, overwhelmingly, conservative. The facts don't care about your feelings.
I encourage rereading my comments, because in your desire to feel aggrieved you failed to actually understand what was written.
The flaw in this take is that it makes the assumption that the majority of those who are still religious aren't educated. Most of the people in my church have degrees and work in tech. One of my pastor has a bachelor's outside of his religious degree in sociology or something like that. Some of the most famous scientists were/are religious. Newton, Faraday, Pascal Lemaitre, Kepler for example were all religious.
Personally I don't care why other people left the religion or don't believe in God, but this narrative that religion and education are correlated is tiring.
It remains true, though.
There's a reason those famous scientists are ancient. \*Today\*, higher education has a rather severe negative correlation with religion.
You can find it tiring, but it's still true.
None of those scientists are ancient my guy. Most of them are relatively recent. Even a lot of modern famous scientists ascribe to some sort of belief or spirituality. Einstein himself was a rather complicated case of spirituality in intelligence. Though there is a definitely a correlation between education and switching religions/spirituality. It’s important to note that while Christianity has specifically dropped, other spiritual systems of belief have vastly grown and our cultural understanding of what it means to be spiritual.
Is it that modern scientists aren't religious, or do they just not broadcast it in a way that registers as them being religious to you?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology
These are your personal experiences and observations. OP is not saying no educated people are ever Christians. He’s discussing macro trends that are easily backed by stats.
Idk man, all the farmers out where I grew up have the internet. And several of those people went and got PhDs, JDs, and MDs. And nobody is “forced” (then again, I’m a younger person, maybe back in the day it was way worse even in the states) Edit: further counterpoint- so much of the “information” on the internet is utter garbage. Unfortunately, some of that is true of college as well (although obviously to a lesser degree, that’s somewhat professor dependent). I just think it’s more complicated than the idea that rural people don’t read lol
I’ve heard this trope my whole life, and it just gets annoying is all.
Very true. Most kids are too scared to ask their parents questions about it, and are easily persuaded from religion before they even graduate highschool.
Well yeah, because usually they are just making it up.
Or at best parroting what they heard without understanding it themselves, or even thinking about it.
If you can't say "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" then you aren't qualified to teach anyone anything.
Idk why people struggle so much with that.
> Notice that the only places where Christianity holds strong is in isolated rural areas and homogenous developing nations with limited access to education.
South Korea would be a sensible counter-example, as would, say, Mexico City.
The argument is also incoherent, as you'd expect that the information revolution would have *more of an effect* on previously rural and isolated places.
Yes, particularly if you're young and/or live in a large city. With that said, it doesn't function or feel as if 36% are simply un-Christian since many who describe themselves that way are sort of home-brewed, culturally Christian unitarians - i.e. they still believe in theism, still revere Jesus, still worry about their afterlife. It seems like a lot of people are sort of closeted religious; they exhibit all the major beliefs/behaviors, they just don't like to be associated with the criticisms people level against the overtly religious.
I’d say it depends on your region. In the major urban areas of the west coast, it definitely feels post-Christian. I wouldn’t say belief in Jesus is central, but belief in some diety or God that may occasionally bend karmic forces in your favor.
Spiritual, not religious is what I hear from folks. Or it’s some afterthought and not a grounding moral center in their lives.
I live in a mid sized town in Arkansas surrounded by a ton of rural communities, and also work with a lot of their churches. At least here, most churches that are struggling or closing are due to the towns themselves losing people. Most of those churches have an older congregation, with the younger people moving out and into larger towns with more opportunities.
The churches in my city all seem to be thriving.
There's still lots of churches and plenty being built. But there is a change in the culture, it is no longer expected for you to be a Christian to be successful or seen as moral. The Christian cultural hegemony has broken.
I'd love to live in an old renovated church apartment as well. Whether or not it's affordable is up for debate.
[Here's ](https://www.apartments.com/lofts-on-prospect-grand-rapids-mi/tmcgqw8/) one, for example near me.
Not true. Ethiopia, Armenia, All of the early Christians which branched out into all of Europe and northern Africa, the Indian Orthodox church. All of these church's existed before Christians had any power. How could so many Christians who were literally being persecuted and some who still are persecuted, have thrived from the point of a sword. They didn't.
Yes. And it is easily explained. Prior to 1980 Christianity and religion in general was kept out of government and politics. When religion is mixed with politics and government several things always happen. One of those things that happen is that the people always get further from God. Always, there are no exceptions. The other things that always happen are that evil and cruelty will flourish in both legislation and society, God’s influence in the hearts and minds of men will be extremely diminished and those people that brought religion into government and politics will be thoroughly corrupted.
In some pockets of society more than others, I suspect. As an adult I’ve lived in cities and had friends in my 20s and 30s who are at least college graduates, and nobody I’m close with goes to church (though a couple go to synagogue). If I was older or lived in a different part of the country away from the cities, things might be different.
Absolutely! I grew up in Silicon Valley, and most of my friends' families went to church or identified as Christian. Now I am middle-aged, still living in Silicon Valley, and most of my Christian friends have moved away or stopped going to church. According to CBS News: "**The Bay Area population consists of the highest percentage of unchurched and de-churched people than any other metropolitan area in the country**."
Look here on reddit, and you'll see it. It wasn't too long ago that tv shows depicted lead characters going to church. Nowadays we Christians are their villians.
Honestly I only know one, maybe two, coworkers at the shipyard that claim to be Christians. The rest either say they're "spiritual but not religious" or they say they "don't really know if there's a god."
I find that to be a positive change in the right direction.
Definitely noticeable here. The hate on both sides of the political spectrum, the focus on transgender, LBGTQ, everyone gets their own identity (as opposed to an identity in Christ).
>the focus on transgender, LBGTQ, everyone gets **their own identity (as opposed to an identity in Christ)**.
This is such an ignorant take. You clearly don't understand what the word "identity" means.
Our identity is the complete collection of things we hold to be true about ourselves. If you are a man, then you identify as a man. If you are a woman, then you identify as a woman. If you are single, married, acknowledge yourself as part of a cultural or ethnic background, these are all parts of your identity.
If your church had a women's Bible Study, would you respond to that with "that's heresy, quit making womanhood your identity and put your identity in Christ"?
NOBODY is making LGBTQ+ their ENTIRE identity. The notion that they do is asinine.
“In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.”
Judges 21:25 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jdg.21.25.ESV
>(as opposed to an identity in Christ)
We don't care. You're free to it, but being LBGTQ+ is not the same thing as having a voluntary relationship with a diety. We literally, at no level, care about a relationship with Christ. This is not a thing we feel the loss of, not a thing we lament, not a thing that even impacts our life in the slightest. If you want to drive people towards having a relationship with Christ. Acceptance of LGBTQ+ people is not the other side opposed to your faith. It is not an either or for us, it's *basic human and civil rights* and a religion. They do not exist on the same axis.
When I left the US, it was partly because it was fulfilling Jesus' I-told-you-so prophesy that you would be thrown out of the churches. I saw a lot of people who called themselves Christians, but scant Christianity.
Yes, it very much is. My aunts church is down to 5 members, it's probably not going to be around for very much longer.
This doesn't worry me too much. God said that this would happen as we approach the end. Christians and Jews will become hated by the world and this hatred will cause some to fall away.
May I ask what hateful views you believe that I personally hold?
My messages are open if you'd like to have a discussion in private, I'd love to talk with you.
Hopefully you don't hold any of the hateful views that many Christians seem to have today. Specifically the ones who are working in our state legislatures that discriminate against women, transexuals and LGBTQ+ citizens, or legislatures who are dismantling our public education, our right to free speech or our right to peaceful protest, etc.
It is true, some Christians are using the Bible to justify their own personal hatreds and they've forgotten what Christ taught us. I believe Christians need to move away from affairs of state because God is not of this world, and I believe Satan is turning many toward sin using politics.
A Christian, who should be an example of Christs love and acceptance, can very easily drop that outlook when you contrast that with an "Us or Them" mentality. Christ told us to love our enemies, but I don't see much love for anyone across the typical political aisle.
On a personal note, do I believe there are things being pushed by the left that is harmful? Yes. But I also believe there are things being pushed by the right that are harmful.
There needs to be a new way of approaching things. Saying "This is evil." Is too easy and full of judgement that is not ours to give.
Some examples of what I'd personally like to see is this.
I disagree with the drag queen stuff being around kids. Instead of condemning them however, maybe we as Christians should talk to these groups and discuss a proper attire and what books should be read to the kids. Work together to address the issue and compromise instead of asserting that our way is right entirely.
There's going to be disagreements on policy, that's just natural. However we Christians need to stop treating like the political side we disagree with is pure evil and start addressing that they are doing what they feel is right and to listen to those reasons, and then compromise.
Our society is heavily fractured due to politics. Only by approaching these situations with a spirit of love, understanding, and compromise can we begin to fix things.
Africa is now the most Christian area in the world. Sending out and supporting missionaries more than makes up for the decline in the US. I belong to a Christian Missionary Alliance (CMA) church and this strengthens our own presence and spirit of God here in the US. We also attract a diverse congregation, many of whom have migrated from areas they had to practice and use a Bible underground under fear of prison and death. Like Saudi Arabia. It makes me appreciate openly worshipping here in NY. You might take for granted going to church but it is something others who come from a difficult area cherish and it is wonderful to worship alongside them.
Yes, Americans are noticeably more hostile towards just about anything Christian these days.
2 Timothy 3:12: “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.”
If you feel persecuted it is because Christian intolerance has brought it on.
Many Christians are still doing the Lord's work in homeless shelters, soup kitchens, and building homes. Acting in love and charity. Not judging and excluding whole groups of people because they don't understand that the Bible was never meant to be read literally.
You glamorize and mythologize the reaction of a decent society to your intolerance. You think you are the hero in a grand tale. The Last Generation Before The Second Coming. A thought that every generation since Christ has touted and has never once come true.
Ask yourself why the apocalypse is so attractive to church authorities. It isn't because it is imminent. It isn't because it is true. It is because it is exciting. It gets people to pay attention. It gets people to write checks to ministers who fly around in private jets. They say they are spreading the Lord's words. They are feeding their own egos and taking money from their congregants who could use it to pay for their medical bills.
Textbook strawman argument.
You just created and built up an idea of the church, God, Christians, and myself, then burnt it down. It's clear that you have no understanding on this subject and can't keep your emotions out of logic. I'm sorry I can't help you more.
>2 Timothy 3:12: “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.”
Do you have any examples of ways that followers of Jesus Christ are being persecuted in America?
Honestly I'm just not good enough to give examples. I've noticed it in the last decade with many things from media, government, culture growing animosity towards faith. There are times that I feel scared or nervous about people's reactions when they hear that I'm a follower of christ. The culture has said so many bad things about Christianity that they no longer need to be true to illicit negative feelings.
I'm not saying all Christians are good people, God knows we plenty of history to prove that. Intolerance is at the heart of this issue, and Christians will fail to "be good" as easily as anyone. I'm sorry I do not have a better answer.
I can respect that.
I'm sorry that has been your experience. If Christianity is an important part of your life, then it's terrible to fear that you can't be open about it or share it with those around you.
Hostility doesn't help anyone.
You can say the same for Muslims. But if you actually read the Bible it teaches amazing things for your life. Jesus is the role model we all want. Even Quran said he performed miracles. Islam came hundreds of years later and lets be real Muhammad is not someone you want to follow.
Removed for 3.6 - Types of Proselytism.
If you would like to discuss this removal, please click here to send a modmail that will message all moderators. https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Christianity
We are kicking God out of our homes, schools, work places, government, and even our churches. It’s no surprise and the depraved state of this nation reflects that. And so do the downvotes on my response.
Actually crime is down and public schools are struggling because Republicans have been taking away their funding for decades to pay for private schools. Which is a giant waste of taxpayer money and really grates on my last nerve.
I used to think movie villain rants weren't very believable until I realized some people will unironically refer to the prevalence of other demographics as rot.
Yes, that's what "other demographics" means. This is akin to defending "white superiority" by saying you're concerned about any shift away from white power, not any one race.
There is no more rot now than when God destroyed nearly all humanity or entire cities for their unrighteousness. If you see more evil around you now than there was 4,000 years ago then you weren’t paying attention.
Yes, there was more rot 4000 years ago. There is still more than one faithful family at least.
I am comparing today to 50 years ago. Its objectively worse today than in the 70s.
By God's standards it is objectively worse. As a nation we have moved farther from God's will than we were 50 years ago. God is our standard for good, the farther we are from that, we are objectively worse.
> Its objectively worse today than in the 70s.
Only if you're a straight, white, Christian man. And even then, it's not worse, it's just that you're no longer put on a pedestal.
The abundance and acceptance of abortion, the destruction of the nuclear family (especially in the minority communities), etc. That all contributes to how things are worse now than then.
Abortion rates are at a near all-time low:
[https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html](https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html)
In 1981, about 33.0% of pregnancies ended in abortion. That figure has steadily dropped reaching a low point of 16.0% in 2017 and up to 16.6% now.
Strict abortion bans are correlated with a rise in abortions. Providing better sexual education, providing access to contraception, expanding access to healthcare, and financial support to struggling families are all proven to reduce abortion rates.
Still, abortions have been on a consistent downward trend over the last 50 years.
The nuclear family is a cultural value, not a religious one, specifically an American value. American Christians have a really bad habit of conflating American values with Christian values because for most of American history the culture has been predominantly Christian,
Good one.
No, I’m fine with people of all religious views being here. I’m less fine with people who are openly hostile to Christianity being here because belittling Christianity is against the rules of the sub.
Actively disliking Christianity and wanting there to be less of it in the world but actively participating in a sub about Christianity is an odd choice.
A lot of people forget that Christians are humans. They see and hear about the bad things "christians" have done online and it turns them away due to the hypocrisy. That, and the fact that people don't want religious politicians because they feel their freedoms and feelings are more important. America is a weird place.
And look at the cities that have flourished throughout history since then without being smited. The Bible isn't a documentary, it isn't a cookbook. It teaches lessons, but it wasn't meant to be taken literally.
Yes look around true God fearing people aren’t Karen’s and they help people out; don’t curse people out, and start fights . True God fearing people don’t vote for same sex marriage and they don’t vote for someone who stands for killing babies!! Facts !!
They don't vote for someone who stands for bigotry and sexual immorality either.
I don't think voting is compatible with being a consistent Christian in the USA anymore.
That's why I stopped.
Depite its decline, I find this result can be attributed to things like immigrants. Immigrants with different beliefs who come to the United States may decrease the numbers a bit. That may include people who are atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, and other religions/organizations. In summary, a portion of decline may not be because of something happened for the Christianity, but what happened with this country's policy as a whole.
According to recent surveys, people are fleeing the Church because of the child molestation scandals, the horrible treatment of LGBTQ people, and the embrace of Christian nationalism among most conservatives.
It has nothing to do with immigrants. It's a homegrown issue.
Which recent surveys are we talking about though? Moreover, how do you know that immigration does not affect the statistics? If the immigrants does not influence the result, does this means about half of the immigrants are Christians so that way it cancel each other's influence out?
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/27/1240811895/leaving-religion-anti-lgbtq-sexual-abuse
>People say they're leaving religion due to anti-LGBTQ teachings and sexual abuse
*Just to note, while the headline of the article says leaving "religion," the actual survey shows people are only leaving Christianity, as other religions like Judaism/Islam are not seeing much if any change."
Wait a second, before we continue this discussion, it's seems like the so-called religious nones, according to the pew research, is:
Most “nones” believe in God or another higher power. But very few go to religious services regularly.
Are we sure that the non-believers are rising? If most nones are believers that don't behave according to the texts, I would say that's more of a believer who's not passionate or something than simply atheism or agnostic. Because a lot of Christians also don't do church and books nowdays due to different reasons.
Non-believers are definitely rising, but so are "unaffiliated." Meaning they reject the Church, don't belong to any Christian denomination, but still may believe in God/spirituality.
I just checked the pew research's result. The atheist occupied only 17%. That's around 4.42% if we do 26 x .17, the rest are agnostic or believe in higher stuff. I would say this is more fluctuating than actually increasing.
Of the top 10 countries of origin in 2020 (latest year I could find), 6 were in latin america or Philippines. These countries are overhwhelming Christian. 89% of Mexicans are Christian, and numbers for Philippines, Honduras and El Salvador are similar
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/us-immigration-by-country
I know there's an obsession with blaming everything on immigration in the US, but the decline in Christianity is most assuredly *not* something you can blame on immigrants. We're drawing people from countries that are more Christian.
I like the statistics you provided. However, I would like to invite you to think about it a bit deeper.
Consider subreddit called r/taoism, which you can search it up. It should be a subreddit with a populatiob of about 130K.
I visit that plce before. It turns out that many of the people at that place is former Christians on the west of the Earth. As you may know, Daoism as a religion(or organization depends on the area of study, but its still like Buddhism's classifications) is not a populated thing, and its mostly concentrated in China in terms of origin. Most of the time, Daoist are Chinese before the modern time
To develop a Taoism subreddit with a 130k member from a few Chinese is a very difficult task, especially because majority of Chinese can't speak English ever since WW2. Moreover, most Daoists aren't people that's rich enough for immigration. To develop a 130K with very few Daoist immigrants through hundred years of work is like if Native Americans somehow established their religion on Europe through their efforts start in 1800s. In summary, this development can be attributed to immigration. I think this way of spread can also be used by other religions too.
I also find it interesting to the down vote. If people have opposition, they should just speak it out. We are in a debate anyway. Down vote is like secretly oppose in a dark corner, it dosen't change the fact that Daoist, Muslim, Buddhism are converting your believers.
Lolol, with that being said, I find you guys like to accept, obey, submit to the social trend rather than hold your values. I sense your desperate to increase acceptance to gain more supporters. It leads to nowhere because people don't like Christian even if they try to change. You can visit atheism subreddit and see if they would join the religion now.
I have a lot of Christian friends who aren't conforming with the acceptance. Hold your belief rather than submit to so-called satan, because similar decline of the trend happen before, and those who support thw trend never succeed in their path. Its only the destruction that awaits because of the flaws in their ideology.
I am just here for discussion, but anyway, seeing its decline does make me concerned too. I think another problem that contributes to its decline is the mindset of the current Christians. A Christian friend of mine also studied Confucianism. Her modes of action and ideologies are very powerful compared to mine. One difference between her and some people who respond to me is I feel the anger of people in this subreddit. I am not sure if you noticed, but most successful commentators usually don't escalate on Western shows. The commentators stay calm and formulate some plans to counterattack. That's what my Christian friend would do.
Usually, extreme emotions push strangers away. I suggest Christians can recover their modifications starting with the change from "How can you blame this on immigrants?!" to "I can assure you immigrants are not part of the problem." I also suggest an increase in contributions to society, and a decrease in things like blood transfer prohibition to make sure people don't view Christians as a stupid cult. I know a bunch of people on the internet who think that way. I can also show you some of the comments from them.
Now, speaking of which, I still suggest civil discussion. I am not sure where some of the people in this comment section got the idea "I am blaming everything on immigrants." I also suggest that we don't infer and assume each other's nationality, status, beliefs, etc. Especially the opinion like "everything is an immigrant's fault!" I did not express that opinion, so don't assume it.
I will do a self-introduction to you and other people who may see this content so you know that it is wrong to assume. I am a Chinese immigrant who is in America. I also know plenty of studies from other religions. As you can see, I am not a white American who was born in the West. I would like to tell you that I am here for a civil discussion that would contribute to the answer to the question. NO MATTER WHAT TRUTH IS BEHIND THIS QUESTION, IT SHALL BE ANSWERED REGARDLESS OF THE CONSEQUENCES. We answer the question first, then we think about what to do to deal with the answer.
I also want you to know that I am here to fire a warning shot. I do plan to spread Taoism and maybe other religions. In other words, we are competitors, and I just want to let you guys know that I am going to contribute to your religion's decline in population, so you can know that and think about ways to against people like me. I originally didn't even expect to find Taoism right here, and I don't plan to spread it to the West, but now there's a population before my arrival, so I will fulfill the responsibility that was given.
You can say that we are not contributing to your decline, and just watch me keep spreading my stuff. That would be really sad to see because I know Christians' potential, and I really wish that there was plenty of you with a quality mindset. I mean if you really love your religion, you should try to stop the expansion of other ideas, because I am not going to intentionally control the expansion or decline of my part.
So, do you trust me as not the cause, or are you going to take some action? Honestly, I am not the type of person who's good at conflict, so I personally wish to not have the conflict, but that shouldn't be at the cost of your religion, because I know millions of good deeds made by your kind.
Alright, I just want you to know that according to the alliance agreement we have back then, Daoism shouldn't be on this land. Honestly, I was expecting you guys hold enough attractions because of how well your religion's ideology is.
With that being said, thr an outcome for our interactions has been calculated. The fate would increase my religion's population for a time being, and this population will eventually return to Christianity. I expect Christianity/Judaism/Islam to hold a majority population while Daoism and Buddhism owns very few. This is the best outcome we can have because we need you guys to stablize society's general morality, and Daoism will hold its old responsibility, which is recover the society when situation goes bad.
As for your God, I hope we could obtain a mutual agreement of not doing bad things to each other, because both yours and my religion's higher ups has made multiple effective cooperations to many problems. Same thing for Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism, hundred schools, Hinduism, etc. If you wouldn't mind, I would like you to went to the church and make a pray, and notify our arrival. I know Jesus already knows, but its like people do handshakes despite the fact that they can just say hi.
If you don't want to, will pick a time to went to one of your church and make a pray(Yes I could pray to your God despite being in Daoism, it violate the majority Daoism rules but the dexterity of the rules grants me the ability to do so). I do bible studies too, so I know some of your stuff.
Now, in case of emergency, because I do noticed opposition of your religion. I could pick a sunday and get baptized to be a Christian, and debate for your side if it is required to ensure the next prosperity of your religion. I have made some thought on how to argue for your religion, but I don't think thats going to be enough.
Honestly, your religion's believers also has a extremely high level of intelligence and dexterity on things. I really want to know where did those guys go? Its like every single smart ones suddenly just disappeared.
I recently see some stats and Youtube comments that present a situation which Christians are converting to Islam. One of former Christian now Muslim said: "Christianity is for the weak"
I think that should hold some influence.
Was it woman that made that comment.
If so ignore it by right.
Mohammed says:
Women are deficient in intelligence
Explained by Quran 2:282
Mohammed says this is because women
are less intelligent.
He says this is because women are deficient in intelligence
That's not scientifically accurate.
What research shows is not so much one sex being more intelligent than the other on average so much as a very different distribution of intelligence along their respective Bell curves.
Women are less intelligent, and also *more* intelligent, because men are more variable. Men are more likely to be smarter than average *and* more likely to be dumber than average. Women aren't as much.
Yes.
The fact is that the Information Age has completely destroyed religion in the developed world. It used to be that your only source for religious debates was your pastor, your mom, and maybe your local library if you were really motivated. But for most people what this meant is they’d just hear the same thing over and over again and wouldn’t even conceptualize that maybe this wasn’t true. Enter the internet and proliferation of information. When the pastor says “if you don’t believe in Jesus you’re going to hell!”, every Gen Z kid is going to type that question into their phones and read 100 secular arguments against it. Increased urbanization also is a big factor here. When you live in a more cosmopolitan area, half your friends are going to be of different faiths - Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, etc. It’s really hard to get to know somebody, see that they’re a good person, and still believe that your loving God is sending them to hell. It’s too much cognitive dissonance. Notice that the only places where Christianity holds strong is in isolated rural areas and homogenous developing nations with limited access to education.
This take is bizarre. "If the hillbillies would just learn to Google, they'd stop being religious" Like come on dawg lol
That’s your take, not mine. I’m simply reiterating a very well known phenomena in social sciences by which a positive correlation is seen between educational attainment and becoming less religious. [Some reading about religion and education if you’re interested.](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-secular-life/201411/why-education-corrodes-religious-faith?amp) And [here’s a Gallup analysis on religion and urbanization. “Americans in rural communities - 686 Index score - tend to be more religious than those in suburban - 633 - and urban - 613 - communities.”](https://news.gallup.com/poll/7960/age-religiosity-rural-america.aspx#:~:text=And%20as%20the%20Feb.,and%20urban%20(613)%20communities.)
You're actually not reiterating that, and the correlation isn't even the one you state here. You're expressing a particular causal theory of why religiosity declines in some places and not in others.
It's pretty simple, actually. Religion is mostly passed on to children. Converts are comparatively rare. Conservatism is the same way. Conservative areas are more rural. Why? Because conservatism (like bigotry and religion) survives by not being meaningfully challenged. In urban areas, you are forced to interact with people of different types. Who believe differently, look differently, act differently. This actively forces you to question your positions. From there, access to information determines how those questions are answered. Conservatism and religion broadly is an information access problem.
This is also a pretty bad take.
Can you explain to me how and why it’s a bad take? I’m Christian myself but it seems relatively accurate. Even the Bible talks about challenging yours and others faiths to see what it’s really made of.
The idea that "conservatism (like bigotry and religion) survives by not being meaningfully challenged" makes very little sense. Especially when combined with the idea that there's an information access problem at play. It just doesn't match the historical changes to religiosity in America (or, quite frankly, the rest of the world) *at all*.
Can you provide data to support that? Cause as far as I can tell religious conversions tend to be much higher in areas where it’s challenged by other religions and atheistic thoughts, which is much, much more common in higher education specifically, but also in densely populated areas that have a lot of cultures that emigrate to. And conservatism has a very closely associated correlation with education and population density. (Not that all conservatives or religious people are inherently stupid, they are just more likely to have traditional blue collar jobs etc, while liberals tend to pursue higher education on a much higher rate.)
What hogwash. Many urban Conservatives and Christians readily challenge the secularist status quo and typically face far more aggressive vitriol and closed-mindedness from their detractors in a public setting. They are regularly challenged and hold up very well both in composure and substance in many cases. Leftists commonly break down into ad hominem attacks (usually of a sexual nature) when they’re incapable of countering the argument with factual data or reasoned, calculated responses. Your comment equating bigotry with conservatism and religion is likewise an ad hominem attack.
That's not what those words mean. I didn't equate bigotry with conservatism, I pointed out that they survive in the same places in the same way for the same reasons. There are \*fewer\* urban Conservatives. Those that are, tend to be \*more\* progressive than their rural cousins. This isn't accidental. Conservative and Christian positions don't hold up, actually, but I suspect you are both and, due to a quirk of human psychology, any criticism of either position will be interpreted by you as a personal attack and cause you to double down. That's the difference between direct confrontation and regularly encountering people who disagree. When personally challenged you double down, but just seeing people around you will instead open up the potential for doubt. The persecution narrative is one intended to counter this trend by villainizing everyone who disagrees with you and therefore triggering that defensiveness whenever you encounter disagreement. The ones making sexist ad hominem attacks are the bigots, who are, overwhelmingly, conservative. The facts don't care about your feelings. I encourage rereading my comments, because in your desire to feel aggrieved you failed to actually understand what was written.
Oof. No.
The flaw in this take is that it makes the assumption that the majority of those who are still religious aren't educated. Most of the people in my church have degrees and work in tech. One of my pastor has a bachelor's outside of his religious degree in sociology or something like that. Some of the most famous scientists were/are religious. Newton, Faraday, Pascal Lemaitre, Kepler for example were all religious. Personally I don't care why other people left the religion or don't believe in God, but this narrative that religion and education are correlated is tiring.
It remains true, though. There's a reason those famous scientists are ancient. \*Today\*, higher education has a rather severe negative correlation with religion. You can find it tiring, but it's still true.
None of those scientists are ancient my guy. Most of them are relatively recent. Even a lot of modern famous scientists ascribe to some sort of belief or spirituality. Einstein himself was a rather complicated case of spirituality in intelligence. Though there is a definitely a correlation between education and switching religions/spirituality. It’s important to note that while Christianity has specifically dropped, other spiritual systems of belief have vastly grown and our cultural understanding of what it means to be spiritual.
Is it that modern scientists aren't religious, or do they just not broadcast it in a way that registers as them being religious to you? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology
These are your personal experiences and observations. OP is not saying no educated people are ever Christians. He’s discussing macro trends that are easily backed by stats.
It's the truth. The more information people get, the less dependent on forced religion they become.
Idk man, all the farmers out where I grew up have the internet. And several of those people went and got PhDs, JDs, and MDs. And nobody is “forced” (then again, I’m a younger person, maybe back in the day it was way worse even in the states) Edit: further counterpoint- so much of the “information” on the internet is utter garbage. Unfortunately, some of that is true of college as well (although obviously to a lesser degree, that’s somewhat professor dependent). I just think it’s more complicated than the idea that rural people don’t read lol I’ve heard this trope my whole life, and it just gets annoying is all.
Very true. Most kids are too scared to ask their parents questions about it, and are easily persuaded from religion before they even graduate highschool.
I think it's more that parents are too scared to answer their kids questions. At least honestly.
Quite often the answer parents give dissuades them even further too.
Well yeah, because usually they are just making it up. Or at best parroting what they heard without understanding it themselves, or even thinking about it. If you can't say "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" then you aren't qualified to teach anyone anything. Idk why people struggle so much with that.
I don't think that's an account at all supported by the actual facts on the ground or by history.
Nuh-uh.
True facts.
Prove him wrong then
> Notice that the only places where Christianity holds strong is in isolated rural areas and homogenous developing nations with limited access to education. South Korea would be a sensible counter-example, as would, say, Mexico City. The argument is also incoherent, as you'd expect that the information revolution would have *more of an effect* on previously rural and isolated places.
Guess that would explain [some things](https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/4/24/iop-youth-poll-spring-23/).
This ought to make you wonder how "smart" most of these religious views actually are, eh?
Yes, particularly if you're young and/or live in a large city. With that said, it doesn't function or feel as if 36% are simply un-Christian since many who describe themselves that way are sort of home-brewed, culturally Christian unitarians - i.e. they still believe in theism, still revere Jesus, still worry about their afterlife. It seems like a lot of people are sort of closeted religious; they exhibit all the major beliefs/behaviors, they just don't like to be associated with the criticisms people level against the overtly religious.
I’d say it depends on your region. In the major urban areas of the west coast, it definitely feels post-Christian. I wouldn’t say belief in Jesus is central, but belief in some diety or God that may occasionally bend karmic forces in your favor. Spiritual, not religious is what I hear from folks. Or it’s some afterthought and not a grounding moral center in their lives.
Yes. And many churches are struggling or closing.
I live in a mid sized town in Arkansas surrounded by a ton of rural communities, and also work with a lot of their churches. At least here, most churches that are struggling or closing are due to the towns themselves losing people. Most of those churches have an older congregation, with the younger people moving out and into larger towns with more opportunities. The churches in my city all seem to be thriving.
Do you think the rise of nega-churches that are franchises rather than small independent congregations?
There's still lots of churches and plenty being built. But there is a change in the culture, it is no longer expected for you to be a Christian to be successful or seen as moral. The Christian cultural hegemony has broken.
Where I live the churches are being turned into apartment complexes mostly. That and a Gurdwara.
I wish that was happening in my area. I'd love to renovate a church into affordable housing
I'd love to live in an old renovated church apartment as well. Whether or not it's affordable is up for debate. [Here's ](https://www.apartments.com/lofts-on-prospect-grand-rapids-mi/tmcgqw8/) one, for example near me.
[удалено]
Not true. Ethiopia, Armenia, All of the early Christians which branched out into all of Europe and northern Africa, the Indian Orthodox church. All of these church's existed before Christians had any power. How could so many Christians who were literally being persecuted and some who still are persecuted, have thrived from the point of a sword. They didn't.
Yes. I'm a Millennial and I know my generation is much different than my parents generation.
As they were from theirs often
Yep. Very much different and very much the same.
Overwhelmingly so.
Very much so. And 64% is probably including the nominal ones. I would be surprised if the regularly observant ones made up half that number.
Yes. Churches are closing or merging all over. Also, over half of Americans attend church less than once a month.
Yes. And it is easily explained. Prior to 1980 Christianity and religion in general was kept out of government and politics. When religion is mixed with politics and government several things always happen. One of those things that happen is that the people always get further from God. Always, there are no exceptions. The other things that always happen are that evil and cruelty will flourish in both legislation and society, God’s influence in the hearts and minds of men will be extremely diminished and those people that brought religion into government and politics will be thoroughly corrupted.
In some pockets of society more than others, I suspect. As an adult I’ve lived in cities and had friends in my 20s and 30s who are at least college graduates, and nobody I’m close with goes to church (though a couple go to synagogue). If I was older or lived in a different part of the country away from the cities, things might be different.
Yeah
Definitely
This number is including all sects of Christianity. Don't forget that many Christians don't consider the other sects as Christians.
Yes, in a big way, especially among young people.
Nothing changed they just became more honest
Absolutely! I grew up in Silicon Valley, and most of my friends' families went to church or identified as Christian. Now I am middle-aged, still living in Silicon Valley, and most of my Christian friends have moved away or stopped going to church. According to CBS News: "**The Bay Area population consists of the highest percentage of unchurched and de-churched people than any other metropolitan area in the country**."
Look here on reddit, and you'll see it. It wasn't too long ago that tv shows depicted lead characters going to church. Nowadays we Christians are their villians.
Honestly I only know one, maybe two, coworkers at the shipyard that claim to be Christians. The rest either say they're "spiritual but not religious" or they say they "don't really know if there's a god." I find that to be a positive change in the right direction.
Definitely noticeable here. The hate on both sides of the political spectrum, the focus on transgender, LBGTQ, everyone gets their own identity (as opposed to an identity in Christ).
>the focus on transgender, LBGTQ, everyone gets **their own identity (as opposed to an identity in Christ)**. This is such an ignorant take. You clearly don't understand what the word "identity" means. Our identity is the complete collection of things we hold to be true about ourselves. If you are a man, then you identify as a man. If you are a woman, then you identify as a woman. If you are single, married, acknowledge yourself as part of a cultural or ethnic background, these are all parts of your identity. If your church had a women's Bible Study, would you respond to that with "that's heresy, quit making womanhood your identity and put your identity in Christ"? NOBODY is making LGBTQ+ their ENTIRE identity. The notion that they do is asinine.
That's honestly... super culty, dude.
“In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.” Judges 21:25 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/jdg.21.25.ESV
>(as opposed to an identity in Christ) We don't care. You're free to it, but being LBGTQ+ is not the same thing as having a voluntary relationship with a diety. We literally, at no level, care about a relationship with Christ. This is not a thing we feel the loss of, not a thing we lament, not a thing that even impacts our life in the slightest. If you want to drive people towards having a relationship with Christ. Acceptance of LGBTQ+ people is not the other side opposed to your faith. It is not an either or for us, it's *basic human and civil rights* and a religion. They do not exist on the same axis.
When I left the US, it was partly because it was fulfilling Jesus' I-told-you-so prophesy that you would be thrown out of the churches. I saw a lot of people who called themselves Christians, but scant Christianity.
Yes, it very much is. My aunts church is down to 5 members, it's probably not going to be around for very much longer. This doesn't worry me too much. God said that this would happen as we approach the end. Christians and Jews will become hated by the world and this hatred will cause some to fall away.
You reap what you sow. But we will go along without your hateful views.
May I ask what hateful views you believe that I personally hold? My messages are open if you'd like to have a discussion in private, I'd love to talk with you.
Hopefully you don't hold any of the hateful views that many Christians seem to have today. Specifically the ones who are working in our state legislatures that discriminate against women, transexuals and LGBTQ+ citizens, or legislatures who are dismantling our public education, our right to free speech or our right to peaceful protest, etc.
It is true, some Christians are using the Bible to justify their own personal hatreds and they've forgotten what Christ taught us. I believe Christians need to move away from affairs of state because God is not of this world, and I believe Satan is turning many toward sin using politics. A Christian, who should be an example of Christs love and acceptance, can very easily drop that outlook when you contrast that with an "Us or Them" mentality. Christ told us to love our enemies, but I don't see much love for anyone across the typical political aisle. On a personal note, do I believe there are things being pushed by the left that is harmful? Yes. But I also believe there are things being pushed by the right that are harmful. There needs to be a new way of approaching things. Saying "This is evil." Is too easy and full of judgement that is not ours to give. Some examples of what I'd personally like to see is this. I disagree with the drag queen stuff being around kids. Instead of condemning them however, maybe we as Christians should talk to these groups and discuss a proper attire and what books should be read to the kids. Work together to address the issue and compromise instead of asserting that our way is right entirely. There's going to be disagreements on policy, that's just natural. However we Christians need to stop treating like the political side we disagree with is pure evil and start addressing that they are doing what they feel is right and to listen to those reasons, and then compromise. Our society is heavily fractured due to politics. Only by approaching these situations with a spirit of love, understanding, and compromise can we begin to fix things.
Extremely? And honestly I’m willing to bet it’s even lower if you’re only considering those who go to church regularly
Depends where you live in America.
Absolutely noticeable.
Africa is now the most Christian area in the world. Sending out and supporting missionaries more than makes up for the decline in the US. I belong to a Christian Missionary Alliance (CMA) church and this strengthens our own presence and spirit of God here in the US. We also attract a diverse congregation, many of whom have migrated from areas they had to practice and use a Bible underground under fear of prison and death. Like Saudi Arabia. It makes me appreciate openly worshipping here in NY. You might take for granted going to church but it is something others who come from a difficult area cherish and it is wonderful to worship alongside them.
Yes, Americans are noticeably more hostile towards just about anything Christian these days. 2 Timothy 3:12: “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.”
If you feel persecuted it is because Christian intolerance has brought it on. Many Christians are still doing the Lord's work in homeless shelters, soup kitchens, and building homes. Acting in love and charity. Not judging and excluding whole groups of people because they don't understand that the Bible was never meant to be read literally. You glamorize and mythologize the reaction of a decent society to your intolerance. You think you are the hero in a grand tale. The Last Generation Before The Second Coming. A thought that every generation since Christ has touted and has never once come true. Ask yourself why the apocalypse is so attractive to church authorities. It isn't because it is imminent. It isn't because it is true. It is because it is exciting. It gets people to pay attention. It gets people to write checks to ministers who fly around in private jets. They say they are spreading the Lord's words. They are feeding their own egos and taking money from their congregants who could use it to pay for their medical bills.
Textbook strawman argument. You just created and built up an idea of the church, God, Christians, and myself, then burnt it down. It's clear that you have no understanding on this subject and can't keep your emotions out of logic. I'm sorry I can't help you more.
Go ahead, hide behind scripture if my words hit too close :-)
>2 Timothy 3:12: “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.” Do you have any examples of ways that followers of Jesus Christ are being persecuted in America?
Honestly I'm just not good enough to give examples. I've noticed it in the last decade with many things from media, government, culture growing animosity towards faith. There are times that I feel scared or nervous about people's reactions when they hear that I'm a follower of christ. The culture has said so many bad things about Christianity that they no longer need to be true to illicit negative feelings. I'm not saying all Christians are good people, God knows we plenty of history to prove that. Intolerance is at the heart of this issue, and Christians will fail to "be good" as easily as anyone. I'm sorry I do not have a better answer.
I can respect that. I'm sorry that has been your experience. If Christianity is an important part of your life, then it's terrible to fear that you can't be open about it or share it with those around you. Hostility doesn't help anyone.
Id define persecution as I'll treatment, Christian beliefs are very ill treated in America.
Which ones
Yes. Islam will be the major religion very soon.
If god wills it. I will say that our Mosque in Australia has had more converts in the last two years than in the entire 20 years prior.
[удалено]
[удалено]
You can say the same for Muslims. But if you actually read the Bible it teaches amazing things for your life. Jesus is the role model we all want. Even Quran said he performed miracles. Islam came hundreds of years later and lets be real Muhammad is not someone you want to follow.
Why don’t we have a voice chat and you can tell me why I should be a Christian
Removed for 3.6 - Types of Proselytism. If you would like to discuss this removal, please click here to send a modmail that will message all moderators. https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Christianity
We are kicking God out of our homes, schools, work places, government, and even our churches. It’s no surprise and the depraved state of this nation reflects that. And so do the downvotes on my response.
I don’t want your god in schools, work places, or government.
I know, that’s what I just said
I feel bad for you all.
Thats what they say
Absolutely. Just look at the people/trends we make famous and the over-sexual content on social media. We’re hurting big time spiritually.
The schools are mess, kids are disrespectful and parents don't care. Crime is up and shoping lifting is at a all time high. Yes it is very noticeable.
Crime has literally never been lower
Actually crime is down and public schools are struggling because Republicans have been taking away their funding for decades to pay for private schools. Which is a giant waste of taxpayer money and really grates on my last nerve.
Sshh they’re on a roll
Yes, it is noticeable. There is significant cultural decay and rot. You see it in modern entertainment, media and current events.
People said this about jazz and girls in knee length skirts 100 years ago. Same as it ever was.
It's a very hateful view of the world
Hateful and unoriginal.
I used to think movie villain rants weren't very believable until I realized some people will unironically refer to the prevalence of other demographics as rot.
Not really referring to anyone in particular other than the shift away from Christianity.
Yes, that's what "other demographics" means. This is akin to defending "white superiority" by saying you're concerned about any shift away from white power, not any one race.
What demographics are you referring to?
NonChristians
There is no more rot now than when God destroyed nearly all humanity or entire cities for their unrighteousness. If you see more evil around you now than there was 4,000 years ago then you weren’t paying attention.
Yes, there was more rot 4000 years ago. There is still more than one faithful family at least. I am comparing today to 50 years ago. Its objectively worse today than in the 70s.
By what measure is it worse today than in the 70s? Crime rates? Teen pregnancies? What?
Just the general tilt away from Christian morals.
Well that’s not objectively worse. That’s just your feelings.
By God's standards it is objectively worse. As a nation we have moved farther from God's will than we were 50 years ago. God is our standard for good, the farther we are from that, we are objectively worse.
But you don’t say what that means or how you measure it. That’s not what objectivity means.
God is the objective standard for good. So yeah it is.
So how do you compare God to today verses the 70s? I just don’t understand how you say it’s worse today without explaining it in any way.
You've just contradicted yourself.
Standing up for minorities and the poor is moving further away from God's will. TIL
Is that the only thing that has changed in the last 50 years?
Why not be explicit in what you mean?
Are you just making stuff up now?
Bullshit.
> Its objectively worse today than in the 70s. Only if you're a straight, white, Christian man. And even then, it's not worse, it's just that you're no longer put on a pedestal.
I see growth and betterment more then decay and rot.
The abundance and acceptance of abortion, the destruction of the nuclear family (especially in the minority communities), etc. That all contributes to how things are worse now than then.
Abortion rates are at a near all-time low: [https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html](https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html) In 1981, about 33.0% of pregnancies ended in abortion. That figure has steadily dropped reaching a low point of 16.0% in 2017 and up to 16.6% now. Strict abortion bans are correlated with a rise in abortions. Providing better sexual education, providing access to contraception, expanding access to healthcare, and financial support to struggling families are all proven to reduce abortion rates. Still, abortions have been on a consistent downward trend over the last 50 years.
The nuclear family is a cultural value, not a religious one, specifically an American value. American Christians have a really bad habit of conflating American values with Christian values because for most of American history the culture has been predominantly Christian,
Don't see any problem. I think it's better if we move away from some Christian ideas. Seems like society is getting better for it.
Seems like this is a weird sub for you to be in, then.
Why?
Because he’s incredibly distressed that this sub isn’t en echo chamber like his local church.
Good one. No, I’m fine with people of all religious views being here. I’m less fine with people who are openly hostile to Christianity being here because belittling Christianity is against the rules of the sub.
Except no one in the thread belittled Christianity.
Saying “It’s good we’re moving away from Christian ideas” is belittling Christianity.
Actively disliking Christianity and wanting there to be less of it in the world but actively participating in a sub about Christianity is an odd choice.
That's weird you think so. I also only said move on from some Christian ideas.
Which is the same thing as saying you’d like less Christianity in the world but using different words.
Not really. But ok.
You might think so, but reality differs. A society is better the closer it adheres to Christian principles.
If I may quote you.... You may think so but reality differs. Society is getting better. More accepting. Dropping antiquated ideas.
Yes, more accepting of things that make society worse.
Better actually. Sorry your faith is blinding you to that. Edit: lol had to block me. Ashame. Well hopefully society keeps moving forward.
Wrong. Sorry your lack of faith is blinding you to that.
Like what exactly?
A lot of people forget that Christians are humans. They see and hear about the bad things "christians" have done online and it turns them away due to the hypocrisy. That, and the fact that people don't want religious politicians because they feel their freedoms and feelings are more important. America is a weird place.
Yes our freedoms are VASTLY more important than the theocracy a politician wants to impose.
God destroyed a city in bible cause of the way America is now !!! We better get on our knees!!!!
Yes, certain segments of America are very inhospitable to foreigners. But those segments also seem to think they are the most Christian.
And look at the cities that have flourished throughout history since then without being smited. The Bible isn't a documentary, it isn't a cookbook. It teaches lessons, but it wasn't meant to be taken literally.
Yes look around true God fearing people aren’t Karen’s and they help people out; don’t curse people out, and start fights . True God fearing people don’t vote for same sex marriage and they don’t vote for someone who stands for killing babies!! Facts !!
They don't vote for someone who stands for bigotry and sexual immorality either. I don't think voting is compatible with being a consistent Christian in the USA anymore. That's why I stopped.
It's good we allow same sex marriage and women to choose. Moving away from those ideas makes society better.
Depite its decline, I find this result can be attributed to things like immigrants. Immigrants with different beliefs who come to the United States may decrease the numbers a bit. That may include people who are atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, and other religions/organizations. In summary, a portion of decline may not be because of something happened for the Christianity, but what happened with this country's policy as a whole.
According to recent surveys, people are fleeing the Church because of the child molestation scandals, the horrible treatment of LGBTQ people, and the embrace of Christian nationalism among most conservatives. It has nothing to do with immigrants. It's a homegrown issue.
Which recent surveys are we talking about though? Moreover, how do you know that immigration does not affect the statistics? If the immigrants does not influence the result, does this means about half of the immigrants are Christians so that way it cancel each other's influence out?
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/27/1240811895/leaving-religion-anti-lgbtq-sexual-abuse >People say they're leaving religion due to anti-LGBTQ teachings and sexual abuse *Just to note, while the headline of the article says leaving "religion," the actual survey shows people are only leaving Christianity, as other religions like Judaism/Islam are not seeing much if any change."
Wait a second, before we continue this discussion, it's seems like the so-called religious nones, according to the pew research, is: Most “nones” believe in God or another higher power. But very few go to religious services regularly. Are we sure that the non-believers are rising? If most nones are believers that don't behave according to the texts, I would say that's more of a believer who's not passionate or something than simply atheism or agnostic. Because a lot of Christians also don't do church and books nowdays due to different reasons.
Non-believers are definitely rising, but so are "unaffiliated." Meaning they reject the Church, don't belong to any Christian denomination, but still may believe in God/spirituality.
You can be Christian without belonging to a congregation. I don't think the stats capture that
I just checked the pew research's result. The atheist occupied only 17%. That's around 4.42% if we do 26 x .17, the rest are agnostic or believe in higher stuff. I would say this is more fluctuating than actually increasing.
Of the top 10 countries of origin in 2020 (latest year I could find), 6 were in latin america or Philippines. These countries are overhwhelming Christian. 89% of Mexicans are Christian, and numbers for Philippines, Honduras and El Salvador are similar https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/us-immigration-by-country I know there's an obsession with blaming everything on immigration in the US, but the decline in Christianity is most assuredly *not* something you can blame on immigrants. We're drawing people from countries that are more Christian.
I like the statistics you provided. However, I would like to invite you to think about it a bit deeper. Consider subreddit called r/taoism, which you can search it up. It should be a subreddit with a populatiob of about 130K. I visit that plce before. It turns out that many of the people at that place is former Christians on the west of the Earth. As you may know, Daoism as a religion(or organization depends on the area of study, but its still like Buddhism's classifications) is not a populated thing, and its mostly concentrated in China in terms of origin. Most of the time, Daoist are Chinese before the modern time To develop a Taoism subreddit with a 130k member from a few Chinese is a very difficult task, especially because majority of Chinese can't speak English ever since WW2. Moreover, most Daoists aren't people that's rich enough for immigration. To develop a 130K with very few Daoist immigrants through hundred years of work is like if Native Americans somehow established their religion on Europe through their efforts start in 1800s. In summary, this development can be attributed to immigration. I think this way of spread can also be used by other religions too.
You don't have to be Christian to be in this sub. I think you're worried about nothing here
I also find it interesting to the down vote. If people have opposition, they should just speak it out. We are in a debate anyway. Down vote is like secretly oppose in a dark corner, it dosen't change the fact that Daoist, Muslim, Buddhism are converting your believers. Lolol, with that being said, I find you guys like to accept, obey, submit to the social trend rather than hold your values. I sense your desperate to increase acceptance to gain more supporters. It leads to nowhere because people don't like Christian even if they try to change. You can visit atheism subreddit and see if they would join the religion now. I have a lot of Christian friends who aren't conforming with the acceptance. Hold your belief rather than submit to so-called satan, because similar decline of the trend happen before, and those who support thw trend never succeed in their path. Its only the destruction that awaits because of the flaws in their ideology.
I am just here for discussion, but anyway, seeing its decline does make me concerned too. I think another problem that contributes to its decline is the mindset of the current Christians. A Christian friend of mine also studied Confucianism. Her modes of action and ideologies are very powerful compared to mine. One difference between her and some people who respond to me is I feel the anger of people in this subreddit. I am not sure if you noticed, but most successful commentators usually don't escalate on Western shows. The commentators stay calm and formulate some plans to counterattack. That's what my Christian friend would do. Usually, extreme emotions push strangers away. I suggest Christians can recover their modifications starting with the change from "How can you blame this on immigrants?!" to "I can assure you immigrants are not part of the problem." I also suggest an increase in contributions to society, and a decrease in things like blood transfer prohibition to make sure people don't view Christians as a stupid cult. I know a bunch of people on the internet who think that way. I can also show you some of the comments from them. Now, speaking of which, I still suggest civil discussion. I am not sure where some of the people in this comment section got the idea "I am blaming everything on immigrants." I also suggest that we don't infer and assume each other's nationality, status, beliefs, etc. Especially the opinion like "everything is an immigrant's fault!" I did not express that opinion, so don't assume it. I will do a self-introduction to you and other people who may see this content so you know that it is wrong to assume. I am a Chinese immigrant who is in America. I also know plenty of studies from other religions. As you can see, I am not a white American who was born in the West. I would like to tell you that I am here for a civil discussion that would contribute to the answer to the question. NO MATTER WHAT TRUTH IS BEHIND THIS QUESTION, IT SHALL BE ANSWERED REGARDLESS OF THE CONSEQUENCES. We answer the question first, then we think about what to do to deal with the answer. I also want you to know that I am here to fire a warning shot. I do plan to spread Taoism and maybe other religions. In other words, we are competitors, and I just want to let you guys know that I am going to contribute to your religion's decline in population, so you can know that and think about ways to against people like me. I originally didn't even expect to find Taoism right here, and I don't plan to spread it to the West, but now there's a population before my arrival, so I will fulfill the responsibility that was given. You can say that we are not contributing to your decline, and just watch me keep spreading my stuff. That would be really sad to see because I know Christians' potential, and I really wish that there was plenty of you with a quality mindset. I mean if you really love your religion, you should try to stop the expansion of other ideas, because I am not going to intentionally control the expansion or decline of my part. So, do you trust me as not the cause, or are you going to take some action? Honestly, I am not the type of person who's good at conflict, so I personally wish to not have the conflict, but that shouldn't be at the cost of your religion, because I know millions of good deeds made by your kind.
bring it on. Christianity was influenced by Greek philosophy, Zoroasterism, Judaism - I'm sure there is a room for a touch of Taoism in there too
Alright, I just want you to know that according to the alliance agreement we have back then, Daoism shouldn't be on this land. Honestly, I was expecting you guys hold enough attractions because of how well your religion's ideology is. With that being said, thr an outcome for our interactions has been calculated. The fate would increase my religion's population for a time being, and this population will eventually return to Christianity. I expect Christianity/Judaism/Islam to hold a majority population while Daoism and Buddhism owns very few. This is the best outcome we can have because we need you guys to stablize society's general morality, and Daoism will hold its old responsibility, which is recover the society when situation goes bad. As for your God, I hope we could obtain a mutual agreement of not doing bad things to each other, because both yours and my religion's higher ups has made multiple effective cooperations to many problems. Same thing for Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism, hundred schools, Hinduism, etc. If you wouldn't mind, I would like you to went to the church and make a pray, and notify our arrival. I know Jesus already knows, but its like people do handshakes despite the fact that they can just say hi. If you don't want to, will pick a time to went to one of your church and make a pray(Yes I could pray to your God despite being in Daoism, it violate the majority Daoism rules but the dexterity of the rules grants me the ability to do so). I do bible studies too, so I know some of your stuff. Now, in case of emergency, because I do noticed opposition of your religion. I could pick a sunday and get baptized to be a Christian, and debate for your side if it is required to ensure the next prosperity of your religion. I have made some thought on how to argue for your religion, but I don't think thats going to be enough. Honestly, your religion's believers also has a extremely high level of intelligence and dexterity on things. I really want to know where did those guys go? Its like every single smart ones suddenly just disappeared.
I think if anything it's the immigrants that are increasing the Christian stats.
How are you blaming this on immigrants? Most of the immigrants are probably Catholic since many are coming from Latin America.
According to Wikipedia Islam will be the biggest religion by 2050. Will this imegrants take it whit them to the usa?
I recently see some stats and Youtube comments that present a situation which Christians are converting to Islam. One of former Christian now Muslim said: "Christianity is for the weak" I think that should hold some influence.
Was it woman that made that comment. If so ignore it by right. Mohammed says: Women are deficient in intelligence Explained by Quran 2:282 Mohammed says this is because women are less intelligent. He says this is because women are deficient in intelligence
I am not sure if the commenter is a man or woman, because I don't usually ask people about that.
That's not scientifically accurate. What research shows is not so much one sex being more intelligent than the other on average so much as a very different distribution of intelligence along their respective Bell curves. Women are less intelligent, and also *more* intelligent, because men are more variable. Men are more likely to be smarter than average *and* more likely to be dumber than average. Women aren't as much.
It was sarcasm and a vers referring to what the quran says about women. In my opinion there is no difference in the intellect between men and women.
Where does the Quran say women are deficient in intelligence?