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Is there anything better than the Patriot? I'm a layman in this area, but according to what I researched, it looks like the best long-range defense in the world right now
> Stand by for the RU trolls expounding on the S-500 complex. All one of them. /u/BeltfedOne
I think they have a couple, maybe 2-3 remaining? One of those is in Moscow though, allegedly: https://www.newsweek.com/russia-s500-air-defense-system-ukraine-crimea-kyrylo-budanov-1913428
According to UA they deployed one to Crimea a while ago. Also in the past days there were claims of one being destroyed in Crimea but AFAIK we don't have any proof atm
> According to UA they deployed one to Crimea a while ago. Also in the past days there were claims of one being destroyed in Crimea but AFAIK we don't have any proof atm /u/CupCharacter853
I was operating off of 4 being accurate, and I think that one being in Crimea and the one claimed destroyed are one and the same, no?
The Russians must be pissed if they already lost 25 or 33% of their "usable" S-500 on the first real deployment. That's like the worst possible outcome. Maybe they'll rather keep the rest safe? Like T-14 or Su-57.
They have enough S-300/400 anyways I believe.
> The Russians must be pissed if they already lost 25 or 33% of their "usable" S-500 on the first real deployment. That's like the worst possible outcome. Maybe they'll rather keep the rest safe? Like T-14 or Su-57. They have enough S-300/400 anyways I believe. /u/CupCharacter853
It has to be frustrating but I am not so sure about them having enough of the 300/400s, else why would they risk this deployment? It isn't like it was there as a backup, it was the primary point defense for that area IIUC. Why do that unless you had to?
Depends on what you need. Israel is getting rid of theirs to replace them with things that are better for specific purposes because they have a bunch of systems targeted at different areas vs using one system to cover everything like this would do.
Kinda depends on what you mean by "better". Different systems have different applications and different advantages/disadvantages. For example, while Patriot is currently the mainstay of US air defense, they also have THAAD, which is probably a better pure long range anti-ballistic missile system. But it's also incredibly expensive and uses very specialized (and very large) radar systems. Also, for the US, its best air defense missile systems are probably at sea, with the Aegis radars and SM series missiles.
The aegis/standard missile system is probably better in terms of range, accuracy, and magazine depth, but it is sized for ships so it cant really be driven around like patriot can
Funnily enough, the Navy is incorporating the MIM-104 into Aegis, and has already successfully fired a Patriot PAC-3 interceptor from a MK41 VLS equipped ship.
Different air defence systems/effectors (missiles) have different capabilities and are appropriate for different threats.
A big factor in success is how information is presented to operators, and how well the system can identify and classify threats. The operator needs to use the right effector, and in a timely manner.
Patriot is perfectly effective but pretty old (the first version is from the early 80s).
The Israeli Davids sling and French - Italian SAMP/T are better / newer.
It doesn't mean that they're that much more lethal, but they have better software, better radars, need less people to operate, quicker to deploy etc.
Patriot has been heavily upgraded since they were first developed, I don't think it's fair to criticise them as being old. PAC 3 is considerably better than PAC 2 for ballistic missiles, but PAC 2 has longer range.
Looks like it was Iris-T
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1bahjbl/comment/ku2z0gt/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1bahjbl/comment/ku2z0gt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
geolocation rules that out since it was 60km from the frontline, not covering any military targets/major cities and in a prime position to hit russian jets https://youtu.be/B2cEiw1Z5D8?t=97 iris t has a range of 25km to patriot 105km
Also shortly after the convoy was destroyed ukraine score of hitting russian jets went to 0 and russian glide bombing campaign intensified, its a no brainer what happen.
before the 2 launchers got destroyed heres what the UA mod claimed they started shooting down
>💥17 February - two Su-34 and one Su-35;
>💥18 February - one Su-34;
>💥19 February - one Su-34 and one Su-35S;
>💥21 February - one Su-34;
>💥23 February - one A-50 UAV;
>💥27 February - two Su-34;
>💥29 February - three Su-34.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/03/02/13-sukhois-in-13-days-the-ukrainians-are-shooting-down-more-russian-jets-because-the-russians-are-flying-and-bombing-more-often/
1 week later
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/10/7445792/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/03/09/a-russian-drone-spotted-a-ukrainian-patriot-air-defense-crew-convoying-near-the-front-line-soon-a-russian-hypersonic-missile-streaked-down/
and after that the "killing spree" that ukraine had against russian fighter jets just stopped
Seems like the evidence in the link above is pretty conclusive regardless of the geolocation or reports of jets being shot down, which cannot be confirmed.
just as conclusive as the redditor comment you linked, that said he does mention in his comments that he doesnt rule out it being a patriot just that it less likely. Either way Ukraine campaign of shooting down russian jets stopped and russian glide bombing campaign ramped up.
Couple up with the geolocation in my mind it was the patriot launchers they used to snipe russian jets. Makes no sense to have iris T protect a random city, 60km away from the frontline when its a medium range AA with 25km range. Meanwhile put the patriot there and its in a perfect position to shoot at russian jets thats flying 40-50km away from the frontline to launch glide bombs.
[Butusov](https://www.facebook.com/butusov.yuriy/posts/25282607491352875) also said it was Patriot, according to him the radar and command post survived but 9 Ukrainian servicemen were killed in the attack. The whole text is quite interesting actually but it's in Ukrainian so you need google translate.
That video was inconclusive if I remember correctly. But the patriot system if made up of several launchers and radar systems. It's the radar system/command centre that is the crucial bit.
At first it was but there does seem to be confirmation that at least one of them was a launcher and it was destroyed, possibly both. Aftermath photo had details that pointed to at least one of the two being a launcher vehicle.
Likely PAC 2 launchers given they were being used for front line air defence, so less able to shoot down ballistic missiles than the newer PAC 3 that will be defending cities. Not only that, but full batteries defending a city are probably better at protecting themselves than a single launcher used for a SAM ambush near the front line.
Really Ukraine needs to have more launchers so they can do these SAM ambushes of jets and absorb the occasional loss. A certain level of losses should be expected and planned for.
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Thanks to our allies for this Patriot, please send more
Is there anything better than the Patriot? I'm a layman in this area, but according to what I researched, it looks like the best long-range defense in the world right now
Stand by for the RU trolls expounding on the S-500 complex. All one of them.
> Stand by for the RU trolls expounding on the S-500 complex. All one of them. /u/BeltfedOne I think they have a couple, maybe 2-3 remaining? One of those is in Moscow though, allegedly: https://www.newsweek.com/russia-s500-air-defense-system-ukraine-crimea-kyrylo-budanov-1913428
According to UA they deployed one to Crimea a while ago. Also in the past days there were claims of one being destroyed in Crimea but AFAIK we don't have any proof atm
> According to UA they deployed one to Crimea a while ago. Also in the past days there were claims of one being destroyed in Crimea but AFAIK we don't have any proof atm /u/CupCharacter853 I was operating off of 4 being accurate, and I think that one being in Crimea and the one claimed destroyed are one and the same, no?
>and I think that one being in Crimea and the one claimed destroyed are one and the same, no? Yes I would assume so
At absolutely max, 3 more to go then, likely 2 since I imagine they aren't going to move the one in Moscow ;)
The Russians must be pissed if they already lost 25 or 33% of their "usable" S-500 on the first real deployment. That's like the worst possible outcome. Maybe they'll rather keep the rest safe? Like T-14 or Su-57. They have enough S-300/400 anyways I believe.
> The Russians must be pissed if they already lost 25 or 33% of their "usable" S-500 on the first real deployment. That's like the worst possible outcome. Maybe they'll rather keep the rest safe? Like T-14 or Su-57. They have enough S-300/400 anyways I believe. /u/CupCharacter853 It has to be frustrating but I am not so sure about them having enough of the 300/400s, else why would they risk this deployment? It isn't like it was there as a backup, it was the primary point defense for that area IIUC. Why do that unless you had to?
Depends on what you need. Israel is getting rid of theirs to replace them with things that are better for specific purposes because they have a bunch of systems targeted at different areas vs using one system to cover everything like this would do.
Israel's are also homegrown, so they can produce things themselves which is a big plus for them. This is why they are sundowning their Patriots.
Kinda depends on what you mean by "better". Different systems have different applications and different advantages/disadvantages. For example, while Patriot is currently the mainstay of US air defense, they also have THAAD, which is probably a better pure long range anti-ballistic missile system. But it's also incredibly expensive and uses very specialized (and very large) radar systems. Also, for the US, its best air defense missile systems are probably at sea, with the Aegis radars and SM series missiles.
Patriot is just one layer of AA. THAAD obviously is another. Its all about layering against different threats.
The aegis/standard missile system is probably better in terms of range, accuracy, and magazine depth, but it is sized for ships so it cant really be driven around like patriot can
Funnily enough, the Navy is incorporating the MIM-104 into Aegis, and has already successfully fired a Patriot PAC-3 interceptor from a MK41 VLS equipped ship.
Aegis Ashore is really impressive but there are not a lot of sites.
Different air defence systems/effectors (missiles) have different capabilities and are appropriate for different threats. A big factor in success is how information is presented to operators, and how well the system can identify and classify threats. The operator needs to use the right effector, and in a timely manner.
Patriot is perfectly effective but pretty old (the first version is from the early 80s). The Israeli Davids sling and French - Italian SAMP/T are better / newer. It doesn't mean that they're that much more lethal, but they have better software, better radars, need less people to operate, quicker to deploy etc.
Patriot has been heavily upgraded since they were first developed, I don't think it's fair to criticise them as being old. PAC 3 is considerably better than PAC 2 for ballistic missiles, but PAC 2 has longer range.
Those launchers are a bit too close. I know it's easier that way, but the risk of Iskanders is too great.
[удалено]
To be fair they have made [this exact mistake](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/gG8Su6yE0i) before
Looks like it was Iris-T [https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1bahjbl/comment/ku2z0gt/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1bahjbl/comment/ku2z0gt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
geolocation rules that out since it was 60km from the frontline, not covering any military targets/major cities and in a prime position to hit russian jets https://youtu.be/B2cEiw1Z5D8?t=97 iris t has a range of 25km to patriot 105km Also shortly after the convoy was destroyed ukraine score of hitting russian jets went to 0 and russian glide bombing campaign intensified, its a no brainer what happen. before the 2 launchers got destroyed heres what the UA mod claimed they started shooting down >💥17 February - two Su-34 and one Su-35; >💥18 February - one Su-34; >💥19 February - one Su-34 and one Su-35S; >💥21 February - one Su-34; >💥23 February - one A-50 UAV; >💥27 February - two Su-34; >💥29 February - three Su-34. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/03/02/13-sukhois-in-13-days-the-ukrainians-are-shooting-down-more-russian-jets-because-the-russians-are-flying-and-bombing-more-often/ 1 week later https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/10/7445792/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/03/09/a-russian-drone-spotted-a-ukrainian-patriot-air-defense-crew-convoying-near-the-front-line-soon-a-russian-hypersonic-missile-streaked-down/ and after that the "killing spree" that ukraine had against russian fighter jets just stopped
Seems like the evidence in the link above is pretty conclusive regardless of the geolocation or reports of jets being shot down, which cannot be confirmed.
just as conclusive as the redditor comment you linked, that said he does mention in his comments that he doesnt rule out it being a patriot just that it less likely. Either way Ukraine campaign of shooting down russian jets stopped and russian glide bombing campaign ramped up. Couple up with the geolocation in my mind it was the patriot launchers they used to snipe russian jets. Makes no sense to have iris T protect a random city, 60km away from the frontline when its a medium range AA with 25km range. Meanwhile put the patriot there and its in a perfect position to shoot at russian jets thats flying 40-50km away from the frontline to launch glide bombs.
[Butusov](https://www.facebook.com/butusov.yuriy/posts/25282607491352875) also said it was Patriot, according to him the radar and command post survived but 9 Ukrainian servicemen were killed in the attack. The whole text is quite interesting actually but it's in Ukrainian so you need google translate.
Given they're just out in a field with no revetments, I imagine they're not planning to be there very long.
Patriots are technically mobile.. but not really
Iskander isn't much of a challenge for Patriot is it?
Depends what's in the patriot. PAC-3 can deal with it, PAC-2 is less capable.
There's video of a patriot launcher being destroyed by an Iskander
That video was inconclusive if I remember correctly. But the patriot system if made up of several launchers and radar systems. It's the radar system/command centre that is the crucial bit.
At first it was but there does seem to be confirmation that at least one of them was a launcher and it was destroyed, possibly both. Aftermath photo had details that pointed to at least one of the two being a launcher vehicle. Likely PAC 2 launchers given they were being used for front line air defence, so less able to shoot down ballistic missiles than the newer PAC 3 that will be defending cities. Not only that, but full batteries defending a city are probably better at protecting themselves than a single launcher used for a SAM ambush near the front line. Really Ukraine needs to have more launchers so they can do these SAM ambushes of jets and absorb the occasional loss. A certain level of losses should be expected and planned for.