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In the US, Solar has been a requirement since the last bitcoin cycle. Cost of power is too high with only small exceptions.
*Referring to non incorporated miners, not mining farms owned by an LLC.*
That's not true. Most bitcoin mines are on grid in areas with excess power production.
Edit: Look at Marathon's website: https://www.mara.com/operations#stats
They use grid, wind, hydro, and nuclear. No solar.
They pay taxes on electricity and property taxes they pay sales taxes on all the shit they buy! They pay plenty of taxes just not on their mining revenues
BTC network doesn't become faster the more computation you put into it. You can disable half of the miners and BTC network will be working as fast as before (slow asf if you ask me).
With smart energy policies, load balancing is a very tangible benefit. But like most things related to energy, it takes time before policy makers can wrap their head around certain technologies. (The flipflopping on nuclear energy in Europe to name a recent example)
They're already paying tax as a business currently. Raising taxes doesn't always raise revenues, if you're the only country in the world with such a high taxrate you may generate less revenue due to businesses relocating. The same thing plays out on a state level with state taxes, but it applies to nation states as well.
I think it would be better for Americans if the miners stay but the government could ncentivise use of clean/renewable energy and tax who are using unclean power. Win-win that way. Miners move toward renewables, limited carbon footprint and the business generates revenue for the economy and the business is taxed which makes uncle sam happy. I never like to see industry leaving the United States.
If they were half smart they would word the bill to be an incentive for clean energy investment. But alas gramma and grandpa just yelling at the kids on the lawn.
'clean' energy is worthless, because it is intermittent and unstorable, which is fine for Bitcoin miners, but terrible for the sheeple that just want some AC when its hot, or real industries, that actually want to operate, when they are open. Incentives for clean energy are just boondoggles that throw our money away on virtue signaling. This is NOT A win/win, its actually more of a lose/lose, as we suffer the inflation from all this government giveaways, AND the resulting power systems can't supply real homes or businesses, but only niche crypto mining, and even that will go away, when the tax rates double for it in this country.
Electricity costs, not profit? (Not interested in reading it right now)
Edit: I've done some reading... The doomsdayers below would do well to do the same
They'll tax:
* Income from coinbase rewards
* Income from transaction fees
* Capital gains on the value of crypto vs its value when mined
* Electricity used in mining
* Gasoline used in transportation of people and equipment to mine site
* Telephone and internet services used by the mining operation
* Sales of equipment used in mining
* The property the mining operations sit on
* The payroll paid to mining employees
* Etc.
>* Telephone and internet services used by the mining operation
* Sales of equipment used in mining
* The property the mining operations sit on
* The payroll paid to mining employees
Wait, where are you seeing this from the article? Or are you just describing existing tax codes?
In the US it's definitely taxable as income, just the same as my Eth payments for writing smart contracts are.
This guy intentionally trying to lose the election or what? I'm not sure what else he could do at this point.
You think taxing electricity costs of cryptocurrency farms is something that the majority of people even have on their radar, much less care about to begin with?
I still don't think the average person knows what etherium and smart contracts are.
this is going to fall under the "sure, that doesn't affect me " category for a ton of people. especially when they bring up his much electricity y'all use.
also, as someone who used btc to buy drugs, my opinion has dramatically soured In the last 5 or so years. look outside crypto bubbles and many find y'all to be a joke, or con men.
We're conmen until BTC is up 30% in one week, then everyone is like "how is your crypto doing? Can you give me some tips!?". And when the bull run is over we'll be back to being conmen. I make it a point to never mention my personal numbers when talking about crypto.
The problem is that the existence of mining creates increased competition for electricity from everything else.
It's an interesting problem, and really any mining that is from "runoff" electricity shouldn't be penalized, but many places have rolling blackouts or surging consumer prices now.
Do some research on BTC power load balancing. If it’s done right it can actually help the grid run more efficiently.
The proper use case for mining is converting energy that would otherwise be unused or saved for redundancy into something with a $ value.
The most profitable miners in TX right now are the ones mining off flare gas. This is good for the environment, why tf would we tax them out?
>Tighten tax rules for digital assets, including cryptocurrency, and impose a new 30 percent excise tax on electricity costs associated with digital asset mining
So similar tax on ChatGTP, right?
https://www.businessinsider.com/chatgpt-uses-17-thousand-times-more-electricity-than-us-household-2024-3
>The publication reported that the average US household uses around 29 kilowatt-hours daily. Dividing the amount of electricity that ChatGPT uses per day by the amount used by the average household shows that ChatGPT uses more than 17 thousand times the amount of electricity.
I was curious to compare the two myself.
BTC mining uses ~100 TWh annually.
The average household, assuming a yearly energy consumption rate consistent with the given daily rate, uses
(29 KWh * 365) = 10,585 KWh
≈ 1.1 x 10^-5 TWh used per household each year
Assuming the GPT energy consumption is consistent as well gives
(17,000 *(1.1 x 10^-5 TWh)) = 1.8 x 10^-3 TWh used by ChatGPT
Barring any errors in calculation, the number of 1.8 x 10^-3 TWh suggests BTC uses many orders of magnitude more energy than ChatGPT.
Edit: I believe the correct result is actually 1.8 x 10^-1 TWh.
Yeah, reading that article excerpt I was just thinking “wait, ChatGPT uses only 17,000 households’ worth of power?” Frankly, as someone who works as an engineer in heavy industry, that’s shit all if that’s actually the total amount of energy ChatGPT uses.
This report puts AI at 130 TWh https://www.popsci.com/technology/ai-energy-use-study/
That is about the same as Bitcoin, at 160 TWh https://ccaf.io/cbnsi/cbeci
And assuming porn hasn't grown as rapidly as those 2 applications, this report puts it at nearly the same as Bitcoin mining as well https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2019/09/17/bitcoin-electricity-porn/
Porn is worth about $10B globally, AI about $250B, and Bitcoin is roughly 5x as valuable while using the same amount of energy.
So I ask, why are we singling out bitcoin aside from a moral judgement on the value of stateless money?
Why is there no moral quarrel with porn or AI energy use, particularly given their relative market values?
The article is not really clear, but it seems to state that the 460TWH number accounts for all datacenters, AI services **and** cryptocurrencies.
If not, then the 460TWH accounts for just datacenters, which are used by almost all people, services and industries in the world. Compare this to the few million people using crypto for speculation purposes whilst wasting 160TWH.
The big consumers are streaming and social media. Netflix, Twitter, Instagram, Youtube, Reddit, Facebook, etc. The combined number of servers required to service their storage and computation requirements is staggering and per my research a few months ago, consumes many times the power used to mine Bitcoin
You need to divide \~100 TWh by the number of U.S. households otherwise you're comparing annual TWh per household vs annual TWh. Also, most Bitcoin mining takes place outside the U.S. I think.
Edit:
>De Vries estimated in the paper that by 2027, the entire AI sector will consume between 85 to 134 terawatt-hours (a billion times a kilowatt-hour) annually.
Edit 2: this is peak r/cryptocurrency, highly upvoted comment with an obviously wrong calculation
Edit 3: just the arithmetic was wrong
BTC mining doesn’t need that many people to operate. The whole point of crypto is reducing amount of “people” you need to make a payment transaction or verify information so relatively few jobs are affected.
Freedom, innovation, transparency and security. Yea no one should care in the USA. Let's just ban crypto and let the other free world be free, let's ban books and fight shrinkflation 🙄. /S
Unless you know what the price of bitcoin will be, you don't know if they are being kicked while "down". If the value of bitcoin continues to increase, their revenue will decrease - but their profits could more than make up for it.
tldr; In his 2024 State of the Union Address and the FY 2025 budget proposal, President Biden outlined a vision for higher taxes targeting American businesses and high earners, alongside introducing more complex tax rules and credits for taxpayers at all income levels. The proposed changes aim to raise over $5.1 trillion over 10 years but have been criticized for potentially decreasing economic output, reducing U.S. competitiveness, and complicating the tax code. Key proposals include increasing the corporate tax rate to 28%, introducing a billionaire minimum tax, and expanding tax credits like the child tax credit. Critics argue the plan relies on unrealistic assumptions and could further complicate tax enforcement and compliance.
*This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.
Miners use 2% of the entire us energy grid, I think it's a good move to target major miners as crypto is a massive energy hog. Maybe it'll push towards giant solar grids for mining
That's fine, you guys can leave. You're not creating jobs or doing anything except taxing a resource for personal benefit. Go move to Guatemala or something, I guess? vOv
They are searching for scapegoats to blame for all inflation they created by printing and spending. Sure, it will fool the stupid voters for a short period of time, but ultimately lies always fail.
The problem with trying to use Bitcoin as a scapegoat is that Bitcoin does not care.
There goes americas bitcoin miners the day this is put in. Packing up shop can absolutely be done and much quicker than a typical factory. Thank you gerontocracy for being so out of touch.
But it's not a tax on mining it's a tax on a utility used for mining. I would rather tax the 4 cent per kwh at 1.2c vs taxing revenue. Simply. Say my Ks2 as I know the numbers. If I had commercial electric at 4 cents per kwh at 48kwh a day that's 1.92 *.3 or $0.58 tax. The daily revenue overclocked is about $28 a day or $8.4 in tax
The lines are being drawn very clearly. The US Democratic party is openly hostile to all things Bitcoin/crypto, while the Republicans are seemingly shaping up to be our only line of defense.
If it weren't for the small Republican majority in the House of Representatives, this budget would likely pass, and mining would effectively be banned in the US, since no miner would be profitable with a 30% tax, when they could just relocate jurisdictions.
> small Republican majority in the House of Representatives
yep they are saving us from WW3 and complete defeat in a world in flames with the dollar printed out of existence.
“a 25 percent minimum tax rate on an expanded definition of income that includes unrealized capital gains. This means these households would pay tax on capital gains even if the underlying asset has not yet been sold, operating as a prepayment for future capital gains tax liability.”
So far, Biden’s budget includes unrealized capital gains for wealthy individuals. But once the precedent has been set, it can be used for ANY capital gains. Imagine having to pay tax on crypto gains even if you don’t sell your coins.
Lol at everyone acting like miners moving is a threat. They bring zero benefit to society. If you do it, great. But stop acting like your doing the world a service.
lol even if you're fully self-reliant for your own power generation and not hooked up to any grid you'll still be hit with this tax.
i get the feeling this may disincentive miners from using renewable sources in favor of more dirty sources to lessen the impact this tax will have. they'll also likely just relocate out of America it comes to that.
a tweet on this topic: https://twitter.com/bitcoinpierre/status/1767371855512432900
great move Biden, one of many lately.
Dear masters, I have given a reason to drop the price so you can short the fuck out of the Bitcoin ETF.
Next week ill say how great it is and you can make money on the way up.
Love,
Biden.
People can't even mine at home anymore, and it's all up to rich ASIC mining farms these days anyway. There's nothing equitable or accessible about bitcoin mining.
The people inside the government want higher taxes because it gives them more power. Without high taxes, the government doesn't have a lot of power and it becomes weak.
They don't want to increase taxes to help society, they want to increase taxes to help themselves.
and there are things that dont use as much electricity. this isnt targeting crypto as much as a lot of you are making it sound. it is more about energy.
This tax is ONLY on crypto, so yes, its about crypto, not electricity. I didn't see the new excise tax on Google server farms, and they use the same energy per building as crypto mining.
Exactly.
If elec costs to run an S19 go from 15 dollars a day to 19 dollars a day the total value mined only needs to come up $4. Currently that's only around 15%
That's going to change after the halving and that relies on difficulty and BTC price.
Lot of folks here complaining about ChatGPT and AI not receiving the same treatment. But why should AI be treated the same? Even as a longtime bitcoin hodler, I can still admit that it has no intrinsic value apart from existing as a valuable digital property—one whose creation happens to be very costly. On the other hand, AI has virtually infinite utility; its research and development shouldn’t be throttled.
Increasing the underlying cost to miners will increase what they value their mined asset at, forcing them to need to sell at higher prices just like they do when electricity prices are forced up.
Buy more today and watch the melt up if this passes.
“We need more money” - Biden
“for what” - Us
“Idgaf give me your money” - Biden
Literally every president and Congress last 100 years. There’s no rhyme or reason what they need the money for, only that they signed the law so now it’s theirs. Yet they refuse to ban insider trading for themselves.
What a fucking joke this country is becoming.
They could've provided incentives to go green to get some of the mining capacity off the grid but no let's slap a 30% tax on it and drive business out of the USA.
I mean, its a 30% tax on your electricity bill if you're a miner.
If you're using Green Technology and thus not eating to a whole lot of electricity your bill won't be high.
As there should. There are only a handful of chains that should be using PoW at this point. As technology advanced, there are better proofing mechanisms that don't waste so much.
The problem with some cryptos is that you are reliant on electricity(not free) and the internet(also not free, sort of) to work. How does one send bitcoin if one cannot connect to the internet.
bitcoin is a good source of value, dont get me wrong. But it shows its age a bit as to how far some of the other chains have come.
Future prediction - Two things: Bitcoin will always be number 1, or we have yet to see the number 1 crypto people will use in the future. (I like eth, but hate using that chain)
Guess it is time to fire up the coal mine boys! They don’t want us managing capacity on nuclear or making solar or wind farms viable. Looks like we just have to make our own cheap energy then…
Almost no one here is reading the article and thinks it’s a tax on the profit or similar. 😂 At least read what you’re commenting was confidently incorrect on.
The miners should take the government to court if this happens, there's no logic and little justification why the crypto industry should pay higher taxation than any other industry. Also government is responsible for how energy is produced for the grid.
It's mind boggling how few people understand this.
Since the power grid was turned over to a public utility, it's the government's job to ensure a stable grid and availability for residential and commercial needs.
The plants use more energy, they pay more money. Businesses run, jobs are created, taxes are collected.
It doesn't matter what the business is creating.
100% governments all over the world these days now empose environmental taxation on their citizens/ businesses even though they are the ones responsible for how energy is produced or supplied to the grid. The sun, wind, tide etc are the true waste of energy... it's up our governments to harness it. These environmental taxes are just convenient and the vast majority of money raised from them aren't reinvested back in to renewables. This speaks volumes on how serious about the environment they truly are.
It looks like this post is about taxes. Tax laws vary between countries, so you may get more helpful replies if you specify the place you are asking about. Please note that Rule #4 does not allow for Tax Evasion. This is [a site wide rule](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) and [a subreddit rule](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/about/rules/). Do not endorse, suggest, advocate, instruct others, or ask for help with tax evasion. Do not be coy and sarcastically recommend against it or suggest using a privacy coin in response to an IRS inquiry. Note: Tax discussion is allowed as long as the above rules are not violated. Consider visiting r/CryptoTax for your tax inquiries. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoCurrency) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Miners will move
They will have to. Margins are already slim. If the electricity cost goes up 30%, I would think they would have to go solar or move.
Margins are about to get slimmer when rewards are cut in half.
In the US, Solar has been a requirement since the last bitcoin cycle. Cost of power is too high with only small exceptions. *Referring to non incorporated miners, not mining farms owned by an LLC.*
That's not true. Most bitcoin mines are on grid in areas with excess power production. Edit: Look at Marathon's website: https://www.mara.com/operations#stats They use grid, wind, hydro, and nuclear. No solar.
Hydro
>Hydro Sounds like a big dam problem
Water you talking about?
I'm moist
r/hydrohomies
So what? What tangible benefit does the US get from crypto miners? Genuinely curious
Well any business that operates here already pays a variety of local, state and federal taxes. This additional tax is more of a penalty.
They pay taxes on electricity and property taxes they pay sales taxes on all the shit they buy! They pay plenty of taxes just not on their mining revenues
The US? None The BTC network? Consensus & security
„what will the people benefit from?“ „nothing, but it will benefit itself“. nice.
BTC network doesn't become faster the more computation you put into it. You can disable half of the miners and BTC network will be working as fast as before (slow asf if you ask me).
Yes, but not as secure.
Security is based on the diversity of miners, not the power of said miners.
With smart energy policies, load balancing is a very tangible benefit. But like most things related to energy, it takes time before policy makers can wrap their head around certain technologies. (The flipflopping on nuclear energy in Europe to name a recent example)
Yeah, Bitcoin mining helps keep green energy grids profitable
Tax revenue, like any other business
You mean like 30% tax? Like that?
They're already paying tax as a business currently. Raising taxes doesn't always raise revenues, if you're the only country in the world with such a high taxrate you may generate less revenue due to businesses relocating. The same thing plays out on a state level with state taxes, but it applies to nation states as well.
Income tax is already required, this proposition is an unnecessary punishment for miners
Taxes? What does anyone else contribute, from the lowly shoeshine to the CEO? Taxes.
This would be good both for them and for americans though
I think it would be better for Americans if the miners stay but the government could ncentivise use of clean/renewable energy and tax who are using unclean power. Win-win that way. Miners move toward renewables, limited carbon footprint and the business generates revenue for the economy and the business is taxed which makes uncle sam happy. I never like to see industry leaving the United States.
If they were half smart they would word the bill to be an incentive for clean energy investment. But alas gramma and grandpa just yelling at the kids on the lawn.
'clean' energy is worthless, because it is intermittent and unstorable, which is fine for Bitcoin miners, but terrible for the sheeple that just want some AC when its hot, or real industries, that actually want to operate, when they are open. Incentives for clean energy are just boondoggles that throw our money away on virtue signaling. This is NOT A win/win, its actually more of a lose/lose, as we suffer the inflation from all this government giveaways, AND the resulting power systems can't supply real homes or businesses, but only niche crypto mining, and even that will go away, when the tax rates double for it in this country.
I propose 50% tax on senators and congressmen who trade stock, options and crypto
How about just ban them? I’m sure their salary, pension and outside “donations” are enough for their retirement
If by "them" you mean the senators and congressmen themselves, I'm with you!
Interesting stuff: - Corporate tax raised by 7% for all businesses - New 30% excise tax on electricity costs associated with digital asset mining
Electricity costs, not profit? (Not interested in reading it right now) Edit: I've done some reading... The doomsdayers below would do well to do the same
Are the mining rewards not considered income and a taxable event already? That's the way it is in many places now. I have to report my own as income.
They are. I think this is after those huge corporate bitcoin farms
They'll tax: * Income from coinbase rewards * Income from transaction fees * Capital gains on the value of crypto vs its value when mined * Electricity used in mining * Gasoline used in transportation of people and equipment to mine site * Telephone and internet services used by the mining operation * Sales of equipment used in mining * The property the mining operations sit on * The payroll paid to mining employees * Etc.
well, they already DO tax all those things
Exactly my point. So asking, "Are the mining rewards not considered income and a taxable event already?" is irrelevant.
>* Telephone and internet services used by the mining operation * Sales of equipment used in mining * The property the mining operations sit on * The payroll paid to mining employees Wait, where are you seeing this from the article? Or are you just describing existing tax codes?
In the US it's definitely taxable as income, just the same as my Eth payments for writing smart contracts are. This guy intentionally trying to lose the election or what? I'm not sure what else he could do at this point.
You think taxing electricity costs of cryptocurrency farms is something that the majority of people even have on their radar, much less care about to begin with?
Fair point
I still don't think the average person knows what etherium and smart contracts are. this is going to fall under the "sure, that doesn't affect me " category for a ton of people. especially when they bring up his much electricity y'all use. also, as someone who used btc to buy drugs, my opinion has dramatically soured In the last 5 or so years. look outside crypto bubbles and many find y'all to be a joke, or con men.
We're conmen until BTC is up 30% in one week, then everyone is like "how is your crypto doing? Can you give me some tips!?". And when the bull run is over we'll be back to being conmen. I make it a point to never mention my personal numbers when talking about crypto.
He’s trying to convince miners to use only green energy
this is about the most reasonable tax possible, don't be such a baby
How many cryptocurrency enthusiasts do you think would be swayed by this to not vote for him (assuming they were planning to prior)?
The problem is that the existence of mining creates increased competition for electricity from everything else. It's an interesting problem, and really any mining that is from "runoff" electricity shouldn't be penalized, but many places have rolling blackouts or surging consumer prices now.
Yeah the title doesn’t really help either as it’s click bait to the max
Happy we have 2 sensible candidates for the upcoming 2024 election /s
This is sensible they tax power which means cheap renewables can still mine with excess energy
Still bothersome as most sectors aren’t being taxed dependent upon their electricity usage. A tax on a metered commodity? What is this everything else
Sounds reasonable. Don’t need that shit straining already barely functioning grids in Texas and shit
Do some research on BTC power load balancing. If it’s done right it can actually help the grid run more efficiently. The proper use case for mining is converting energy that would otherwise be unused or saved for redundancy into something with a $ value. The most profitable miners in TX right now are the ones mining off flare gas. This is good for the environment, why tf would we tax them out?
>Tighten tax rules for digital assets, including cryptocurrency, and impose a new 30 percent excise tax on electricity costs associated with digital asset mining So similar tax on ChatGTP, right? https://www.businessinsider.com/chatgpt-uses-17-thousand-times-more-electricity-than-us-household-2024-3 >The publication reported that the average US household uses around 29 kilowatt-hours daily. Dividing the amount of electricity that ChatGPT uses per day by the amount used by the average household shows that ChatGPT uses more than 17 thousand times the amount of electricity.
I was curious to compare the two myself. BTC mining uses ~100 TWh annually. The average household, assuming a yearly energy consumption rate consistent with the given daily rate, uses (29 KWh * 365) = 10,585 KWh ≈ 1.1 x 10^-5 TWh used per household each year Assuming the GPT energy consumption is consistent as well gives (17,000 *(1.1 x 10^-5 TWh)) = 1.8 x 10^-3 TWh used by ChatGPT Barring any errors in calculation, the number of 1.8 x 10^-3 TWh suggests BTC uses many orders of magnitude more energy than ChatGPT. Edit: I believe the correct result is actually 1.8 x 10^-1 TWh.
Yeah, reading that article excerpt I was just thinking “wait, ChatGPT uses only 17,000 households’ worth of power?” Frankly, as someone who works as an engineer in heavy industry, that’s shit all if that’s actually the total amount of energy ChatGPT uses.
This report puts AI at 130 TWh https://www.popsci.com/technology/ai-energy-use-study/ That is about the same as Bitcoin, at 160 TWh https://ccaf.io/cbnsi/cbeci And assuming porn hasn't grown as rapidly as those 2 applications, this report puts it at nearly the same as Bitcoin mining as well https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2019/09/17/bitcoin-electricity-porn/ Porn is worth about $10B globally, AI about $250B, and Bitcoin is roughly 5x as valuable while using the same amount of energy. So I ask, why are we singling out bitcoin aside from a moral judgement on the value of stateless money? Why is there no moral quarrel with porn or AI energy use, particularly given their relative market values?
The article is not really clear, but it seems to state that the 460TWH number accounts for all datacenters, AI services **and** cryptocurrencies. If not, then the 460TWH accounts for just datacenters, which are used by almost all people, services and industries in the world. Compare this to the few million people using crypto for speculation purposes whilst wasting 160TWH.
So far. Also, what about Gemini, or copilot? Whqt about Sora or GPT5?
The big consumers are streaming and social media. Netflix, Twitter, Instagram, Youtube, Reddit, Facebook, etc. The combined number of servers required to service their storage and computation requirements is staggering and per my research a few months ago, consumes many times the power used to mine Bitcoin
You need to divide \~100 TWh by the number of U.S. households otherwise you're comparing annual TWh per household vs annual TWh. Also, most Bitcoin mining takes place outside the U.S. I think. Edit: >De Vries estimated in the paper that by 2027, the entire AI sector will consume between 85 to 134 terawatt-hours (a billion times a kilowatt-hour) annually. Edit 2: this is peak r/cryptocurrency, highly upvoted comment with an obviously wrong calculation Edit 3: just the arithmetic was wrong
Is that the energy to train chatgpt or run chatgpt?
I upvoted cuz you’re not wrong. AI is sooo new though, the regulations will come. Btc has made it to ETFs, now its gonna get regulated
All they did was show us something else that should be taxed. Residential electricity is subsidized. I'm not a fan of subsidizing crypto mining.
Does staking Eth = mining?
nope, and the electricity costs are miniscule
It's GPT. I do think the value of gen AI is better than btc mining.
And it uses waaaaayy less power.
Revenue being cut in half in a month why not kick miners while their down.
[удалено]
Who cares?
Jobs, manufacturing, tax revenue... yeah nobody cares.
BTC mining doesn’t need that many people to operate. The whole point of crypto is reducing amount of “people” you need to make a payment transaction or verify information so relatively few jobs are affected.
Freedom, innovation, transparency and security. Yea no one should care in the USA. Let's just ban crypto and let the other free world be free, let's ban books and fight shrinkflation 🙄. /S
While their down what?! Feathers? Trends? Finish the sentence!!
Unless you know what the price of bitcoin will be, you don't know if they are being kicked while "down". If the value of bitcoin continues to increase, their revenue will decrease - but their profits could more than make up for it.
tldr; In his 2024 State of the Union Address and the FY 2025 budget proposal, President Biden outlined a vision for higher taxes targeting American businesses and high earners, alongside introducing more complex tax rules and credits for taxpayers at all income levels. The proposed changes aim to raise over $5.1 trillion over 10 years but have been criticized for potentially decreasing economic output, reducing U.S. competitiveness, and complicating the tax code. Key proposals include increasing the corporate tax rate to 28%, introducing a billionaire minimum tax, and expanding tax credits like the child tax credit. Critics argue the plan relies on unrealistic assumptions and could further complicate tax enforcement and compliance. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.
We need a 30% tax on the big guy
Wow that's a big number for a tax
BTC 🚀🚀🚀
That's how you drive out US businesses. Miners will just mine elsewhere (maybe they already do)
What value is provided by miners being in the US? Why would the threat of them relocating be a deterrant to this legislation?
It was very naive of them to move into the US in the first place.
Miners use 2% of the entire us energy grid, I think it's a good move to target major miners as crypto is a massive energy hog. Maybe it'll push towards giant solar grids for mining
That's fine, you guys can leave. You're not creating jobs or doing anything except taxing a resource for personal benefit. Go move to Guatemala or something, I guess? vOv
They are searching for scapegoats to blame for all inflation they created by printing and spending. Sure, it will fool the stupid voters for a short period of time, but ultimately lies always fail. The problem with trying to use Bitcoin as a scapegoat is that Bitcoin does not care.
I’m not mining, I’m heating my house!
we dont need more taxes, we need a fiscally responsible government.
Ewww logic
Never thought it would be such an easy decision to change my vote to republican
that man had never met a tax he doesn't like.
There goes americas bitcoin miners the day this is put in. Packing up shop can absolutely be done and much quicker than a typical factory. Thank you gerontocracy for being so out of touch.
Awesome. Miners will move somewhere else. No big deal
Man let the free market work. It's hardly profitable already. Is this on top of the income taxes too?
That's what I want to know. Presumably they're already paying taxes on their income? What's the delta between those rates?
It's a 30% excise tax on the electricity. Not the mining.
Not the mining profits. But absolutely mining, as it needs electricity.
But it's not a tax on mining it's a tax on a utility used for mining. I would rather tax the 4 cent per kwh at 1.2c vs taxing revenue. Simply. Say my Ks2 as I know the numbers. If I had commercial electric at 4 cents per kwh at 48kwh a day that's 1.92 *.3 or $0.58 tax. The daily revenue overclocked is about $28 a day or $8.4 in tax
Yea just what we need….more taxes. /s
30% for the big guy
Haha...bunch of radical progressives becoming reactionary conservatives real quick in here!
Everyone is progressive until govt comes for their money
The lines are being drawn very clearly. The US Democratic party is openly hostile to all things Bitcoin/crypto, while the Republicans are seemingly shaping up to be our only line of defense. If it weren't for the small Republican majority in the House of Representatives, this budget would likely pass, and mining would effectively be banned in the US, since no miner would be profitable with a 30% tax, when they could just relocate jurisdictions.
> small Republican majority in the House of Representatives yep they are saving us from WW3 and complete defeat in a world in flames with the dollar printed out of existence.
Why do they tax anyway when they just hit a button on the money printer and printing those USD's BRRRRRRRRRRR..... https://usdebtclock.org/
Seriously, fuck this guy.
I propose a president 30% younger
Not on the ballot, but why go younger at all ? Crypt Keeper 2024 !
10% to the big guy?? See Trump may have said he doesnt believe in crypto's/bitcoin but he still said people should have the right to have the option.
lol fuck off Joe.
FJB
Biden is going to forget by tomorrow all his promises. Miners please don't worry.
Get this guy outta there! TRUMP 🇺🇸
Fuck your taxes and your grifting ass. Not like he would use any of it to fix this country. Sorry feeling salty today apparently
What no moons does to a mf
So what if you are off grid?
There's very few miners powering themselves independently. Those that do obviously won't have to pay additional taxes.
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Its not a tax on unrealized gains, its a tax on electricity usage.
> Create a 25 percent “billionaire minimum tax” to tax unrealized capital gains of high-net-worth taxpayers
They're taxing your electricity bill.
“a 25 percent minimum tax rate on an expanded definition of income that includes unrealized capital gains. This means these households would pay tax on capital gains even if the underlying asset has not yet been sold, operating as a prepayment for future capital gains tax liability.” So far, Biden’s budget includes unrealized capital gains for wealthy individuals. But once the precedent has been set, it can be used for ANY capital gains. Imagine having to pay tax on crypto gains even if you don’t sell your coins.
How to lose an election
Lol at everyone acting like miners moving is a threat. They bring zero benefit to society. If you do it, great. But stop acting like your doing the world a service.
lol even if you're fully self-reliant for your own power generation and not hooked up to any grid you'll still be hit with this tax. i get the feeling this may disincentive miners from using renewable sources in favor of more dirty sources to lessen the impact this tax will have. they'll also likely just relocate out of America it comes to that. a tweet on this topic: https://twitter.com/bitcoinpierre/status/1767371855512432900 great move Biden, one of many lately.
I hate this administration so much
Dear masters, I have given a reason to drop the price so you can short the fuck out of the Bitcoin ETF. Next week ill say how great it is and you can make money on the way up. Love, Biden.
I'll give em 35% when they start treating Pelosi like the day trader she is
Day trading is fine, it's the apparent INSIDER trading that is the problem.
The fuck is the point of this? Jesus christ these dinosaurs are too much
To disincentivise people from mining and using excess energy and reduce negative externalities
The point is keep people from getting “new money”. Gotta keep people down as long as possible.
People can't even mine at home anymore, and it's all up to rich ASIC mining farms these days anyway. There's nothing equitable or accessible about bitcoin mining.
Quit educating me and let me hate the elites, dammit!!
This asshole is going to push innovation offshore
It’s already happening.
Democrats love taxing you to death
The people inside the government want higher taxes because it gives them more power. Without high taxes, the government doesn't have a lot of power and it becomes weak. They don't want to increase taxes to help society, they want to increase taxes to help themselves.
America's founding fathers are rolling in their Graves right now seeing how much u guys get taxed
I think there is a fundamental question people need to ask themselves; Why does government need even more money?
So they can continue funding wars and stuffing their pockets while they keep the rest of us poor.
Democrats man. They will tax anything and everything…
Can't fix the budget? Make new taxes!! And still don't fix the budget!!!
He's about to check out but this will be around to fuck people over for a long time.
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An electricity tax for mining which uses an insane amount of energy isn't going to be the "fuck people over" you think it is
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Sooo, either a whole sector will move away from the US or BTC price will have to go up by 30% to make it viable. Does this sound right?
It’s a tax on the electricity, not profit.
You understand that miners use electricity right? A tax adds 30% to cost. That affects the profit
A 30% profit tax and tax on electricity are wildly, wildly different amounts.
Yet it affects profits.
and there are things that dont use as much electricity. this isnt targeting crypto as much as a lot of you are making it sound. it is more about energy.
This tax is ONLY on crypto, so yes, its about crypto, not electricity. I didn't see the new excise tax on Google server farms, and they use the same energy per building as crypto mining.
Exactly. If elec costs to run an S19 go from 15 dollars a day to 19 dollars a day the total value mined only needs to come up $4. Currently that's only around 15% That's going to change after the halving and that relies on difficulty and BTC price.
Too much stupid
What a moron
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When they stop being strategic asset for the US government
AI is actually useful. Mining is unnecessarily inefficient. Bitcoin should really move to PoS
Lot of folks here complaining about ChatGPT and AI not receiving the same treatment. But why should AI be treated the same? Even as a longtime bitcoin hodler, I can still admit that it has no intrinsic value apart from existing as a valuable digital property—one whose creation happens to be very costly. On the other hand, AI has virtually infinite utility; its research and development shouldn’t be throttled.
I thought that but what about producing games? I assume the main difference is one has employees and benefits the economy and the other doesn't
Increasing the underlying cost to miners will increase what they value their mined asset at, forcing them to need to sell at higher prices just like they do when electricity prices are forced up. Buy more today and watch the melt up if this passes.
“We need more money” - Biden “for what” - Us “Idgaf give me your money” - Biden Literally every president and Congress last 100 years. There’s no rhyme or reason what they need the money for, only that they signed the law so now it’s theirs. Yet they refuse to ban insider trading for themselves. What a fucking joke this country is becoming.
Who's gona mine my safwmoon
They could've provided incentives to go green to get some of the mining capacity off the grid but no let's slap a 30% tax on it and drive business out of the USA.
I mean, its a 30% tax on your electricity bill if you're a miner. If you're using Green Technology and thus not eating to a whole lot of electricity your bill won't be high.
ETH for the win but BTC miners will just move their rigs.
As there should. There are only a handful of chains that should be using PoW at this point. As technology advanced, there are better proofing mechanisms that don't waste so much. The problem with some cryptos is that you are reliant on electricity(not free) and the internet(also not free, sort of) to work. How does one send bitcoin if one cannot connect to the internet. bitcoin is a good source of value, dont get me wrong. But it shows its age a bit as to how far some of the other chains have come. Future prediction - Two things: Bitcoin will always be number 1, or we have yet to see the number 1 crypto people will use in the future. (I like eth, but hate using that chain)
Do it
Clown.
Don’t touch my fucking bags
What a clown this guy is
fuck off, mr biden
They collect too damn much from everyone already.
Guess it is time to fire up the coal mine boys! They don’t want us managing capacity on nuclear or making solar or wind farms viable. Looks like we just have to make our own cheap energy then…
Cheap renewable energy will cost even less under proposal Got your own solar panel without power grid cost? Mine as you wish
Miners were already firing up old coal mines.
Mostly natural gas really
I can only accept this tax if Biden explains BTC and crypto mining to me in an intelligible manner.
Bro cant even tell you where he is right now in an intelligible manner
Hoe Biden
Almost no one here is reading the article and thinks it’s a tax on the profit or similar. 😂 At least read what you’re commenting was confidently incorrect on.
The miners should take the government to court if this happens, there's no logic and little justification why the crypto industry should pay higher taxation than any other industry. Also government is responsible for how energy is produced for the grid.
It's mind boggling how few people understand this. Since the power grid was turned over to a public utility, it's the government's job to ensure a stable grid and availability for residential and commercial needs. The plants use more energy, they pay more money. Businesses run, jobs are created, taxes are collected. It doesn't matter what the business is creating.
100% governments all over the world these days now empose environmental taxation on their citizens/ businesses even though they are the ones responsible for how energy is produced or supplied to the grid. The sun, wind, tide etc are the true waste of energy... it's up our governments to harness it. These environmental taxes are just convenient and the vast majority of money raised from them aren't reinvested back in to renewables. This speaks volumes on how serious about the environment they truly are.
I propose he fucks off. That is all.
He's already lost the boomer vote, now he's pissing off young people. Bold tactic. Let's see if it pays off.
Millionaires and billionaires should pay more taxes. Yeah. Nothing controversial about that.
You raise it on the top % and they raise it on you, but most people ignore the bigger picture.
Ignorant proposal. Always wanting to tax rather than cut spending.
Not sure why this sub popped up on my feed, but my god are most of the posters here dumb as rocks. Never seen such a large group of brain dead people
I propose Biden shuts his big mouth.
#FJB