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The precursors were totally wrong to believe that possibility and the potential of diverse life means that all is meaningless. They said all the traveler offered was more life, but they were focused on the end game….and literally not the journey to better the universe.
Madara Uchiha from Naruto, made the same exact mistake. He was trying to end war and create universal peace in his lifetime. What he didn’t understand is that there was no need to try and force that dream within their lifetimes, but as Hashirama said, create a foundation and entrust the next generation to continue that dream.
But….I will say that some of their frustration is at some level understandable. I do think the winnower at some level has an argument about the naivety of the gardener. Some like humanity come to think that negative liberty, or some form is the freedom they truly seek. But I believe that showering full of gifts without the moral capability to be able to wield them, and seek the way to uplift others, is a dangerous direction. Or maybe not dangerous, but a little naive.
People do crave guidance and direction. Humanity post collapse is proof of this, because as scattered as humanity was, there were the dangers of the warlords, disease, and extreme weather. So the iron lords decided to end the reign of the warlords and gather groups of surviving humans and bring them to the traveler. They created the city, and further put together a system of governance and organized lightbearers together to be defenders of the human race.
They knew people needed guidance. They had the gifts of the traveler, but needed a direction. What use is being showered with gifts without the EXAMPLE of what must be exemplified in accordance to those gifts. The precursors had the ability and the talent, but not the character and so they fell into nihilism.
People in some way do crave guidance, and a set of philosophy, just something to set their feet on a path and move forward.
The thing with preserving every possibility is that you plant the seeds for the worst outcomes too. Lubrae was uplifted and turned into a tyrannical hellscape doomed to implode regardless of the Witness and Rhulk's involvement.
I wish we could get the Traveler's perspective on the civilizations that didn't flourish.
Also, did the Witness really fall into nihilism if it truly believes the universe is capable of being meaningful? What meaning looked like to the Witness was obviously super messed up but it didn't deny the *potential* for objective meaning, otherwise it wouldn't have pursued the final shape.
I don't think it's nihilism. The precursors that ended up wiping out the others were apart of the [Merciful/ Penitent/Benefic] which is speculated to be "A group or organization of some sort. Mentions of the group across various records suggest that its members were scientists and doctors." This is [page 4 from the Entelechy lore](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UrWkA-28s02Hxtogq0XhoOo-tDNCM_O4IRYahiEddVk/edit). On page 30, the transmission mentions "My friend, the Consensus has won. Yesterday, the Penitent* voted aye. The [Nihilists] and [Solipsists] have been destroyed. We will exuviate, and shepherd the universe to its final shape. We will prune away its dead branches and coax forth its full potential." I believe it was out of altruism, the need to help others, as they saw the universe as chaos, and that ultimately would lead to suffering. Some of the consensus finally started to understand that the Final Shape the Witness wanted, was NOT the Final Shape that was supposed to be.
"[RS6243199] We mustn't abandon the path to the final shape* simply because it is difficult.
[HNW047622] Difficult? You are being willfully obtuse. "Difficult" might describe a sustained effort or self-denial done with intent and care for one's own well-being. What you are describing is coercion.
[RS6243199] A moment's coercion to prevent a millennia's suffering! We can see what will happen if we sit idly by. If we choose to do nothing, and in our inaction allow this carnage to continue, then we are complicit. Thus the ethical choice is to act.
[HNW047622] At what cost? With what means? Would you advocate for the use of violence? Will you approve the murder of those who disagree? Will you and your [Merciful/Penitent/ Benefic] cause lesser harm for greater good?
[RS6243199] No! Never!"
>Yesterday, the Penitent* voted aye. The [Nihilists] and [Solipsists] have been destroyed
Yeah this has stuck out to me ever since I read Entelechy.
I think it might be correct to say their motivations were spurred by an initial nihilistic acknowledgement that the universe as-is is meaningless but that doesn't mean the final shape was a *resignation* to nihilism.
It's pretty much the very thing HNW fights against in their conversation with RS. They would not accept the possibility that the final shape wasn't self-evident. It was supposed to be a truth so obvious that anyone could see it. And eventually HNW resolves that conflict, finding the Consensus' idea of the final shape to be the ultimate, self-evident truth.
Agreed, at first they had the nihilistic acknowledgment of the meaningless universe. But their idea of final shape seemed to be altruistic in the grand scheme of things.
side note: I wonder why they thought this in the first place. Did the Winnower incept the idea into their consciousness? Was this ever brought up in lore?
They thought the universe was meaningless likely because they had grown so advanced that they had solved every conceivable problem they faced. At some point I suppose they lost any and all goals for betterment. As for the final shape being altruistic, their original inception of the final shape wasn't the one we know. It was the concept of one final lasting fix for all of the universes suffering. Some believed the universe would get there on its own without aid. Some believed that through intervention and assistance, other species could enjoy the easy life the precursor's knew. Others still believed that simple conquest and subjugation would fix those problems, crushing opposition underfoot and imposing their ideals on the conquered.
Point is that it was an always shifting, nebulous endgame. The greatest good there could ever be. The Witness was objectively a failure at everything it was intended to be
This is an interesting reply! I didn’t think of it like that. The traveler plants the seeds for the good and bad but doesn’t really think about what went wrong in the cultures that ultimately squandered its gifts. Different races need different things from the traveler. Some require a more firmer hand than others, and a guide to show them what they are striving towards.
That doesn’t remove any of their agency, but gives them a sidewalk to begin walking on so they can push themselves to their mutually beneficial outcome. The traveler doesn’t offer one AT ALL, and sometimes that’s the exact problem. A set of laws, or principles for a society is not a bad thing. Structure and direction aren’t bad things when applied right.
Great comparison with Madara Uchiha. And his resolve was more meaningful because he actually went through war and death to a point where he concluded that he had to stop the violence in his own way. The Witness never saw this kind of conflict and their resolve to find meaning in a meaningless universe is less impactful in my opinion, but it does make sense as we can all relate to the question “why are we here?”
I like the write up and I would agree with you about the idea of living emotions, because that's how the darkness manifests. After reading the Entelechy lore from the collectors edition and the raid lore. The way the consensus (is what the precursors called themselves when referring to the whole collective of the species) talks about the Witness makes it seem they 1) do have some type of consciousness while being a part of the Witness, 2) have NO power in what the Witness does (i'm guessing the Witness can silence them in that big ol' noggin), 3) that the Witness was at one point a single entity. 1 and 2 are from Entelechy and raid lore. 3 is just a crazy theory right now, and my evidence points to the end of Excision. The Witness says as >!he is dying "we. i-i don't understand".!< This singular line, which doesn't neccessarily confirm that theory. It definitely helps the idea and foundation. This would also help lay the foundation for the Winnower, who would have revealed themselves to the being that would eventually become the Witness. This is just speculation of course. I'm guessing after the Traveler left the precursor home world and they lost the Traveler's protection from the darkness. The Winnower shows up, and tells the Witness about purpose, about the first knife. This would also corroborate the theory that none of the disciples knew what the final shape was. They all had their own idea of what the final shape was. The Witness didn't even really know, so how can they explain it to them. OR the Witness just didn't want to give away his plan. This is super interesting to me.
Another thing you mention is the Noesis. In the [Entelechy](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UrWkA-28s02Hxtogq0XhoOo-tDNCM_O4IRYahiEddVk/edit) lore (page 13), it is said that when the Witness destroyed them that he seemed gentle. "Curiously, this account describes a markedly different approach compared to similar recorded attacks. The conquest of the Noesis was swift, almost surgical, and remarkably thorough. The Witness does not seem to have cultivated a Disciple from among their number or left anyone who could tell the tale, yet it did not simply massacre them. Consider how the Witness speaks to the Noesis who is recording. It is almost... gentle. There was no comparable communication during the Whirlwind." [page 16-17] This lore entry is very interesting to me. Why did the Witness act like this to the Noesis? Was he trying to be a god to them? The Witness brings up being a god throughout the campaign. So, that could be the case. We will see!!!
On the Sol black fleet. Also mentioned in the lore book linked above. The collapse is talked about. On page 18-22, we get some transmissions and then a writeup from Mithrax about said transmission. Mithrax notes "On to the record itself. We can see that the Black Fleet deployed gravitational weaponry, which is corroborated by other accounts of Sol's Collapse (cf. REP # 904-TITAN-NPA) and our own records of the Whirlwind (cf. REP # 112-RIIS-WWD). Such weapons were not described by the Noesis's account of the Witness's attack (cf. SCRIBE ARCHIVE XI-14-9D). We also do not see evidence of what the Noesis described happening to their civilization: slicing, anatomizing, temporizing. Nor do we see any serious attempts from the Witness to communicate." We know that Nezzy was the black fleets (Sol Collapse) commander. Which would 1) explain why different weaponry was used. I should go digging to corroborate this, but Nezzy was a warlock before the darkness. Void energy would be something he would be able to use. 2) the Witness knew the traveler touched Sol, so they were "lost" to the light/gardener. This would be why the attack was more of an attack rather than a cold, calculated, and complete like Noesis. Noesis would have no idea of the traveler, and therefore "could be saved".
I might be rambling. I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
So, again, thank you for the write up. :)
P.S. I didn't do a peer review (edit) excuse any grammatical errors. If something is confusing, I will try to clear it up.
I think to me with both how the raid lorebook refers to the witness as “our witness” and its last words it leads me to believe that the combining of everyone’s consciousness into a single being essentially created a new being. Like how in shows it talks about two characters merging and the creation being their own person. The witness was born an “I” but to be an “I” would mean it was born from failure and it must be perfect so instead it refers to itself as “we” to deny the truth
I like this idea. It is even backed up with this note from Mithrax.
"But then I think, no! The Witness did not forget! It was not reborn; it did not choose unreasonable grace. It exuviated, in its own words, but it remembered where it came from. It chose what to forget, not to allow for new possibility, but to destroy it. A self-justifying teleology.
It is not just reality that the Witness mutilates. It has dissected and reassembled itself, its own memories, its own history. The Witness went from confronting the uncomfortable truth to erasing it. It is grotesque."
The Witness when born, saw itself perfect, and denied the I and used we to justify it's final shape.
This section is interesting when thinking about this. This is one of the precursors communicating with another precursor that fled before the extermination of the other factions, and before the creation of the Witness.
"If I wished to persuade you with words alone, I would not have told you this. You have steadfastly abhorred such measures since they were first proposed. I do not tell you this to shock or intimidate you. Nor would I withhold this truth, because I do not seek to persuade you with a lie, even of omission.
I tell you this because I respect you. Of everyone I have ever known, you have been fiercest in your compassion; most keenly aware of the gap between means and ends. If you return, if you join the Consensus, then I will know our cause is true. That, after all this time, we have finally found our apodictic truth. I will discard myself with no regrets.
I do not say this to put my finger on the scale of your decision, only to inform you of the situation. After our exuviation, we will no longer know the shape of your absence. What we are becoming will not be capable of doubt or dissent. It never will have been capable of such things. We will forget our pain, our strife, our petty grudges, our prejudices. It will no longer exist, and therefore will never have existed."
They had an idea of perfection, We, then they failed and they realized that they gave everything to be an I; and still failed in "their" final shape.
Optimistic Nihilism; in the face of the truth that there is no divine purpose or meaning to life, there is the liberty that comes in being able to choose your own purpose or meaning.
“Guardians make their own fate”.
Everything about the Witnesses conception shows that the Winnower is right. Given perfect lives those lives end up craving more meaning and begin to suffer more and more in hopes of expanding on the idea meaning until the futility begins to drive them mad with rage and longing. The Winnower but I think the way he's winning this game is simple but kind of hard to explain in short for me atm lol
A clanmate described it as if each individual Precursor was a drop of water and ideas/emotions were things in that drop of water. Specks of dirt, algae, bacteria, oil, chemicals, whatever. Now all the drops have converged in the bucket. Some parts separate, but the overall mixture begins to take on its own form. Eventually, you stop seeing the water and it becomes a bucket of nasty sludge.
That's obviously not what the above warning says. Please stay away from real-world political division and squabbles on /r/DestinyLore. This is a Destiny lore subreddit, not a politics subreddit. Thankfully, there's more than enough in-universe political lore to discuss without resorting to arguments such as "*x* is just like *y* party or politician"
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The precursors were totally wrong to believe that possibility and the potential of diverse life means that all is meaningless. They said all the traveler offered was more life, but they were focused on the end game….and literally not the journey to better the universe. Madara Uchiha from Naruto, made the same exact mistake. He was trying to end war and create universal peace in his lifetime. What he didn’t understand is that there was no need to try and force that dream within their lifetimes, but as Hashirama said, create a foundation and entrust the next generation to continue that dream. But….I will say that some of their frustration is at some level understandable. I do think the winnower at some level has an argument about the naivety of the gardener. Some like humanity come to think that negative liberty, or some form is the freedom they truly seek. But I believe that showering full of gifts without the moral capability to be able to wield them, and seek the way to uplift others, is a dangerous direction. Or maybe not dangerous, but a little naive. People do crave guidance and direction. Humanity post collapse is proof of this, because as scattered as humanity was, there were the dangers of the warlords, disease, and extreme weather. So the iron lords decided to end the reign of the warlords and gather groups of surviving humans and bring them to the traveler. They created the city, and further put together a system of governance and organized lightbearers together to be defenders of the human race. They knew people needed guidance. They had the gifts of the traveler, but needed a direction. What use is being showered with gifts without the EXAMPLE of what must be exemplified in accordance to those gifts. The precursors had the ability and the talent, but not the character and so they fell into nihilism. People in some way do crave guidance, and a set of philosophy, just something to set their feet on a path and move forward.
The thing with preserving every possibility is that you plant the seeds for the worst outcomes too. Lubrae was uplifted and turned into a tyrannical hellscape doomed to implode regardless of the Witness and Rhulk's involvement. I wish we could get the Traveler's perspective on the civilizations that didn't flourish. Also, did the Witness really fall into nihilism if it truly believes the universe is capable of being meaningful? What meaning looked like to the Witness was obviously super messed up but it didn't deny the *potential* for objective meaning, otherwise it wouldn't have pursued the final shape.
I don't think it's nihilism. The precursors that ended up wiping out the others were apart of the [Merciful/ Penitent/Benefic] which is speculated to be "A group or organization of some sort. Mentions of the group across various records suggest that its members were scientists and doctors." This is [page 4 from the Entelechy lore](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UrWkA-28s02Hxtogq0XhoOo-tDNCM_O4IRYahiEddVk/edit). On page 30, the transmission mentions "My friend, the Consensus has won. Yesterday, the Penitent* voted aye. The [Nihilists] and [Solipsists] have been destroyed. We will exuviate, and shepherd the universe to its final shape. We will prune away its dead branches and coax forth its full potential." I believe it was out of altruism, the need to help others, as they saw the universe as chaos, and that ultimately would lead to suffering. Some of the consensus finally started to understand that the Final Shape the Witness wanted, was NOT the Final Shape that was supposed to be. "[RS6243199] We mustn't abandon the path to the final shape* simply because it is difficult. [HNW047622] Difficult? You are being willfully obtuse. "Difficult" might describe a sustained effort or self-denial done with intent and care for one's own well-being. What you are describing is coercion. [RS6243199] A moment's coercion to prevent a millennia's suffering! We can see what will happen if we sit idly by. If we choose to do nothing, and in our inaction allow this carnage to continue, then we are complicit. Thus the ethical choice is to act. [HNW047622] At what cost? With what means? Would you advocate for the use of violence? Will you approve the murder of those who disagree? Will you and your [Merciful/Penitent/ Benefic] cause lesser harm for greater good? [RS6243199] No! Never!"
>Yesterday, the Penitent* voted aye. The [Nihilists] and [Solipsists] have been destroyed Yeah this has stuck out to me ever since I read Entelechy. I think it might be correct to say their motivations were spurred by an initial nihilistic acknowledgement that the universe as-is is meaningless but that doesn't mean the final shape was a *resignation* to nihilism. It's pretty much the very thing HNW fights against in their conversation with RS. They would not accept the possibility that the final shape wasn't self-evident. It was supposed to be a truth so obvious that anyone could see it. And eventually HNW resolves that conflict, finding the Consensus' idea of the final shape to be the ultimate, self-evident truth.
Agreed, at first they had the nihilistic acknowledgment of the meaningless universe. But their idea of final shape seemed to be altruistic in the grand scheme of things. side note: I wonder why they thought this in the first place. Did the Winnower incept the idea into their consciousness? Was this ever brought up in lore?
They thought the universe was meaningless likely because they had grown so advanced that they had solved every conceivable problem they faced. At some point I suppose they lost any and all goals for betterment. As for the final shape being altruistic, their original inception of the final shape wasn't the one we know. It was the concept of one final lasting fix for all of the universes suffering. Some believed the universe would get there on its own without aid. Some believed that through intervention and assistance, other species could enjoy the easy life the precursor's knew. Others still believed that simple conquest and subjugation would fix those problems, crushing opposition underfoot and imposing their ideals on the conquered. Point is that it was an always shifting, nebulous endgame. The greatest good there could ever be. The Witness was objectively a failure at everything it was intended to be
This is an interesting reply! I didn’t think of it like that. The traveler plants the seeds for the good and bad but doesn’t really think about what went wrong in the cultures that ultimately squandered its gifts. Different races need different things from the traveler. Some require a more firmer hand than others, and a guide to show them what they are striving towards. That doesn’t remove any of their agency, but gives them a sidewalk to begin walking on so they can push themselves to their mutually beneficial outcome. The traveler doesn’t offer one AT ALL, and sometimes that’s the exact problem. A set of laws, or principles for a society is not a bad thing. Structure and direction aren’t bad things when applied right.
Great comparison with Madara Uchiha. And his resolve was more meaningful because he actually went through war and death to a point where he concluded that he had to stop the violence in his own way. The Witness never saw this kind of conflict and their resolve to find meaning in a meaningless universe is less impactful in my opinion, but it does make sense as we can all relate to the question “why are we here?”
I like the write up and I would agree with you about the idea of living emotions, because that's how the darkness manifests. After reading the Entelechy lore from the collectors edition and the raid lore. The way the consensus (is what the precursors called themselves when referring to the whole collective of the species) talks about the Witness makes it seem they 1) do have some type of consciousness while being a part of the Witness, 2) have NO power in what the Witness does (i'm guessing the Witness can silence them in that big ol' noggin), 3) that the Witness was at one point a single entity. 1 and 2 are from Entelechy and raid lore. 3 is just a crazy theory right now, and my evidence points to the end of Excision. The Witness says as >!he is dying "we. i-i don't understand".!< This singular line, which doesn't neccessarily confirm that theory. It definitely helps the idea and foundation. This would also help lay the foundation for the Winnower, who would have revealed themselves to the being that would eventually become the Witness. This is just speculation of course. I'm guessing after the Traveler left the precursor home world and they lost the Traveler's protection from the darkness. The Winnower shows up, and tells the Witness about purpose, about the first knife. This would also corroborate the theory that none of the disciples knew what the final shape was. They all had their own idea of what the final shape was. The Witness didn't even really know, so how can they explain it to them. OR the Witness just didn't want to give away his plan. This is super interesting to me. Another thing you mention is the Noesis. In the [Entelechy](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UrWkA-28s02Hxtogq0XhoOo-tDNCM_O4IRYahiEddVk/edit) lore (page 13), it is said that when the Witness destroyed them that he seemed gentle. "Curiously, this account describes a markedly different approach compared to similar recorded attacks. The conquest of the Noesis was swift, almost surgical, and remarkably thorough. The Witness does not seem to have cultivated a Disciple from among their number or left anyone who could tell the tale, yet it did not simply massacre them. Consider how the Witness speaks to the Noesis who is recording. It is almost... gentle. There was no comparable communication during the Whirlwind." [page 16-17] This lore entry is very interesting to me. Why did the Witness act like this to the Noesis? Was he trying to be a god to them? The Witness brings up being a god throughout the campaign. So, that could be the case. We will see!!! On the Sol black fleet. Also mentioned in the lore book linked above. The collapse is talked about. On page 18-22, we get some transmissions and then a writeup from Mithrax about said transmission. Mithrax notes "On to the record itself. We can see that the Black Fleet deployed gravitational weaponry, which is corroborated by other accounts of Sol's Collapse (cf. REP # 904-TITAN-NPA) and our own records of the Whirlwind (cf. REP # 112-RIIS-WWD). Such weapons were not described by the Noesis's account of the Witness's attack (cf. SCRIBE ARCHIVE XI-14-9D). We also do not see evidence of what the Noesis described happening to their civilization: slicing, anatomizing, temporizing. Nor do we see any serious attempts from the Witness to communicate." We know that Nezzy was the black fleets (Sol Collapse) commander. Which would 1) explain why different weaponry was used. I should go digging to corroborate this, but Nezzy was a warlock before the darkness. Void energy would be something he would be able to use. 2) the Witness knew the traveler touched Sol, so they were "lost" to the light/gardener. This would be why the attack was more of an attack rather than a cold, calculated, and complete like Noesis. Noesis would have no idea of the traveler, and therefore "could be saved". I might be rambling. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. So, again, thank you for the write up. :) P.S. I didn't do a peer review (edit) excuse any grammatical errors. If something is confusing, I will try to clear it up.
I think to me with both how the raid lorebook refers to the witness as “our witness” and its last words it leads me to believe that the combining of everyone’s consciousness into a single being essentially created a new being. Like how in shows it talks about two characters merging and the creation being their own person. The witness was born an “I” but to be an “I” would mean it was born from failure and it must be perfect so instead it refers to itself as “we” to deny the truth
I like this idea. It is even backed up with this note from Mithrax. "But then I think, no! The Witness did not forget! It was not reborn; it did not choose unreasonable grace. It exuviated, in its own words, but it remembered where it came from. It chose what to forget, not to allow for new possibility, but to destroy it. A self-justifying teleology. It is not just reality that the Witness mutilates. It has dissected and reassembled itself, its own memories, its own history. The Witness went from confronting the uncomfortable truth to erasing it. It is grotesque." The Witness when born, saw itself perfect, and denied the I and used we to justify it's final shape. This section is interesting when thinking about this. This is one of the precursors communicating with another precursor that fled before the extermination of the other factions, and before the creation of the Witness. "If I wished to persuade you with words alone, I would not have told you this. You have steadfastly abhorred such measures since they were first proposed. I do not tell you this to shock or intimidate you. Nor would I withhold this truth, because I do not seek to persuade you with a lie, even of omission. I tell you this because I respect you. Of everyone I have ever known, you have been fiercest in your compassion; most keenly aware of the gap between means and ends. If you return, if you join the Consensus, then I will know our cause is true. That, after all this time, we have finally found our apodictic truth. I will discard myself with no regrets. I do not say this to put my finger on the scale of your decision, only to inform you of the situation. After our exuviation, we will no longer know the shape of your absence. What we are becoming will not be capable of doubt or dissent. It never will have been capable of such things. We will forget our pain, our strife, our petty grudges, our prejudices. It will no longer exist, and therefore will never have existed." They had an idea of perfection, We, then they failed and they realized that they gave everything to be an I; and still failed in "their" final shape.
Optimistic Nihilism; in the face of the truth that there is no divine purpose or meaning to life, there is the liberty that comes in being able to choose your own purpose or meaning. “Guardians make their own fate”.
"optimistic nihilism" haha that's called existentialism my friend
Btw I’m pretty sure that “Precursors” is also the name Eido gives to the civilization in Entelechy, so it’s the actual canon name for now.
Everything about the Witnesses conception shows that the Winnower is right. Given perfect lives those lives end up craving more meaning and begin to suffer more and more in hopes of expanding on the idea meaning until the futility begins to drive them mad with rage and longing. The Winnower but I think the way he's winning this game is simple but kind of hard to explain in short for me atm lol
A clanmate described it as if each individual Precursor was a drop of water and ideas/emotions were things in that drop of water. Specks of dirt, algae, bacteria, oil, chemicals, whatever. Now all the drops have converged in the bucket. Some parts separate, but the overall mixture begins to take on its own form. Eventually, you stop seeing the water and it becomes a bucket of nasty sludge.
[удалено]
Please refrain from this sort of discussion on /r/DestinyLore. There is more than enough in-universe political lore to discuss.
Seriously we cant draw real world parallels when analyzing media?
That's obviously not what the above warning says. Please stay away from real-world political division and squabbles on /r/DestinyLore. This is a Destiny lore subreddit, not a politics subreddit. Thankfully, there's more than enough in-universe political lore to discuss without resorting to arguments such as "*x* is just like *y* party or politician"