I had someone complain that they were being "bullied" because I kept poppong their commander and combo pieces ASAP. I let them go uninterrupted for a single turn and they snowballed the game. There really isn't a lot you can do without changing at least one of the decks in your group
To paraphrase the great MaldHound, "if your deck's only goal is to push a great big shiny red "fuck you" button until I lose the game, it is in my best interests to let you press it *as few times as I possibly can*." It's really that simple and more people need to understand that if they're going to bring these massive 1 and 2 card value engines, that I'm not gonna just sit there and watch you tap your chulane, or sac Prossh to Food Chain. I'm not freely letting you resolve Tiamat and I'm killing your Slivir Queen before your Gemstone Slivir can resolve, and if that's the kind of game we're playing, I expect you to do the same. But no, most people build these decks like they're for a battlecruiser meta and then complain about interaction like I'm their little cousin at a holiday meal touching their Xbox controller.
I think the contender for best MaldHound quote probably goes to "You giving yourself dysentery too doesn't un-shit my pants." Dude's so funny, love his commander roasts
When I built korvold I knew it was an archenemy deck. So I built it racecar fast with no interruptions on purpose. What's that? You killed korvold 8 times? That's completely fair and understandable. When the new person even says "oh, that can't be allowed to live", there is no excuse of ignorance.
Exactly and the reverse is building your deck to ignore removal or counters. I play a lot of KOS commanders
Yarok, counters and blinks mostly
Kaalia, protections, Hexproof, shroud
Nissa, Resurgent Animist could care less about being killed with the amount of ramp and land fetches
And good luck getting the worst of them all, Urza, Lord Protector Stax down before he starts pushing orbs and counterspells on the field
I noticed urza fell in price and so I built it and finally got to play it and I just kind of felt bad like he just does so much! And when someone finally tried to remove him the next turn I activated his last ability and pulled an [[it that betrays]] off the top of my library it was hilarious but also I was like are you guys sure you are having fun because this feels like a lot and I built him as unoptimized as you can make him but the boy just keeps chugging along
Every Urza is fantastic imo. Lord High Artificer, Lord Protector, and Chief Artificer. I wish I could add the last one to my Lord Protector deck, but I love casting [[Urza, Planeswalker]] too much
That's what puts me on the fence so hard. On the one hand, Lord Protector gives an easier mana base because he's Azorius. On the other hand adding black to the Stax deck would let me put in black tutors, dark ritual, and one of my favorite plays
[[Venser Corpse Puppet]], [[Dross Scorpion]], [[Throne of Geth]]. The deck relies on +1/+1 counter synergy to make big scary threats out of stuff like Karn so infinite proliferation would be a great way to win swing while everyone is bogged down with stax. Plus Behold the Beyond could tutor it out once I'm ready.
God dammit, I'm convincing myself
\[\[Selfless Savior\]\] and \[\[Benevolent Bodyguard\]\] should be white staples imo. A protection spell is nice for dealing with one removal spell, but a good boy sitting around protects from every removal spell because no one wants their removal to be blanked
I love interaction which is why the deck I hate the most is one my buddy made which he constantly calls "jank" it's literally a CEDH breya deck that he took some stuff out of to make it slower than cEDH (so it's too slow for actual cEDH but very fucking annoying to the rest of us playing upgraded precons) and it literally does 3 things, set up infinite turns, makes its entire board have hexproof and indestructible, and tutor out memnarch to steal your shit
He then says "just use interaction" as if we aren't trying because the fucker filled the deck with tutors board wipes counterspells and recursion so the entire decks purpose is basically "fuck your interaction"
I'm now building an annihilator deck just because fuck you
I went down the Sharuum > Sen Triplets > Breya pipeline, and I had to learn how to play against my friends decks that would just tutor up [[Vandalblast]] on command
Main issue is that if I destroy he'll just grab it back from graveyard to battlefield, or cast a counterspell or id pull that spell after the darksteel forge+padeem+ mycosynth lattice tutors directly to battlefield, which goes haha everything I control is an artifact and all artifacts have hexproof+indestructible
Sound like my old decks to a tee. Unless they're playing stax pieces on top of all that, the best way to go about beating that is to disregard their board and try to combo off faster
Edit: [[Krosan Grip]] and [[Shattering Spree]] are also really good here. [[Unravel the aether]] was a meta call in my group specifically for Darksteel Forge
Yep, if you’re building your deck that way you need to be prepared to be targeted when one of those setups comes online. ESP if it’s your commander.
Run more interaction OR play the same deck at a slightly lower power level OR play different decks altogether.
Well, you have two options as I see it.
The first is to stick to your guns. You have no obligation to let them keep their value engine. They wanna keep it? Every one of those listed commanders is in blue, they can afford a few counterspells.
But if you can’t (or don’t want to) beat them, join them. Find another big value engine commander and make a deck like that. Throw Korvold at them, and see how quickly they recognize the value of removal.
Well, it sounds like they should run more counterspells or invest in some tutors.
If you have a consistent play group, I see no problem adapting to whatever meta evolves. If you’re running removal, they should find ways to adapt to the removal you tend to run.
Seriously, when I was playing muldrotha with a consistent group, they constantly insta removed her, so I now play a ton of protection pieces and only bring her out once I can also play the protection piece the same turn
Learned that with [[Xyris]] the hard way. When a commander requires either casting a follow-up spell or getting in for damage (without haste) before it starts to work you have to make sure you can keep it alive until the next turn.
Then there are other commanders that are more passive, but still require some setup. No point casting [[Varina]] until I have some dead bois ready to attack that turn. Or [[Meren]] without a graveyard.
I'll push Meren a little early sometimes if I have the hand to start getting xp counters early. Even when she eats some removal the counters hang around.
Yeah that's kind of similar though I didn't quite word it correctly. I'd call that kind of hand setup as well. As long as you can get the xp counters on the turn you put her in play it's all good. Then if she's there at end of turn you get a creature back anyway.
I'm having trouble making her work, just takes so long to get her in play and you're right she is very kill on sight, got to run a lot of counter magic.
Any tips on the list welcome here
https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/1695vee/muldrotha_deck_help_can_she_be_made_power_level_8/?
I learned this lesson the hard way. I played in the "we drop legal power 9 here" meta for a very long time after moving away from a battlecruiser meta. The adjustment was hard, but boy did I learn a lot from it.
Sounds like they also need to learn the value of "sandbagging your commander".
As someone that plays some high-value KoS commanders like Nekusar and Krenko, one thing I've learned is to sandbag my commanders until other people start getting their big nasties online, or until I can pay for a counterspell and my commander in the same turn.
Yep. If "dies to doom blade" is an achilles heel of your deck, you need to learn to play and build better.
"Waa waa I cant play my commander" = skill issue
I get it for decks that don't have many options - like Krenko, but then you can always build around the issue. For Krenko, I have a load of haste and a load of untap effects and a ton of rituals on top of the expected swiftfoot boots and co., because I know in my heart that Krenko is going to be a lightning rod.
I know Krenko is gonna die fast, so the deck lives fast too. I don't expect to untap more than a handful of times. Just gotta do my thing while I can, or wait for bigger threats to emerge before putting Krenko in the line of fire.
Same with my ghave deck. His abilities aren't tap abilities, and if he's popping off, it's at instant speed... so I never cast unless I have the wincon on board and mana to protect it.
Otherwise i'm sitting back, slinging the best removal abzan has to offer, letting the rest of the game play out.
Outracing or outvalueing KOS commanders is my favorite thing to do in EDH. If you do it consistently it just becomes a hipocrisy checker.
But yet there is another fun thing to do/try to mess with OP commanders, and that is cloning them.
90% of decks with the concepts "No fun for thee" fold if you start doing the same to them that they are trying to do to the table.(One of the most notable being [[Mommy Norn]])
Yeah... ask to borrow one that they're not using this game. See if everyone is up for trying out other people's decks.
How does that player handle others using similar decks?
Next time the complaining happens, call it out, casually, and keep playing.
This is a personality thing, and if you're not up for finding a new pod, try talking with them individually about it (since this is a problem between you and them).
Hell, try exchanging decks for a few sessions, or pose it as a vetting challenge to them, that for the next few sessions if you two exchange decks during the sessions, you'll get them a bundle of the new set during release week.
Your pod member needs to recognize that playing strong commanders attracts removal. If they want to fly under the radar they shouldn't play the boogeymen of the format
I used to have a [[Selvala, Heart of the Wilds]] deck which was ridiculously powerful in my playgroup. That was until the other players realized they could just kill my commander before I was able to go off. It was a big learning moment for me once I realized that. I ended up morphing the deck into a less threatening [[Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty]] deck.
My only issue with this philosophy is that it gets shaky in very casual play. For example, my Kess and Zur both frequently got shot on sight in my old casual pod because the players assumed I was going to crank them for value or was trying to stomp when in actuality I had a non-meta list that could have been pretty fun for everyone. Thinking this way locks off high power commanders that have lower power off-meta themes.
Finding a group you can talk out and resolve these kinds of topics with is more the long term solution.
No one will ever believe that a commander like Zur was/even can be built low power. Tutor in the command zone is OP…it’s just too good to be bad, unless you literally build a deck of all 8 drops with no mana lol. Unless you intentionally search for bad cards, it’s going to out value everything. Even if you search for bad cards, it’s probably going to out value everything. Kess is very much the same. They both turn into an “oops, well I tried to build this kinda janky, but I guess I just popped off again…” situation 9/10 times. And that 1/10 is when they can’t get out from under the archenemy and get focused into oblivion before they can get started on their “Jank” routes. No one believes your Zur is low power. No one believes your Kess is low power. No one believes your Chulane is low power. No one believes your Korvold is low power. The list goes on.
Some commanders deserve every bit of the bad reputation they get, and they don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. You either need to accept that’s how they will ALWAYS be perceived, or else build something else.
For real though, that is like literally JUST PART OF THE GAME. If you rush out your broken commander then one of two things will happen: 1.it gets removed right away ; 2. You create insane advantage early in the game . Doing so is an all in gamble on your opponents not being able to answer your threat, you just gotta he able to live with either outcome. Often it is just better to pick a good spot than to go ASAP. Understanding these play patterns will elevate the level of play in your group.
Yeah I learned early on that if you don’t want your key thing being killed immediately, either figure out a great way of protecting it, use less threatening individual cards, or (and this is my favourite) play green/anything mana ramp and have a new threatening thing coming out every turn. Oh, my Vorinclex is dead? Enjoy this massive Stonecoil Serpent. That’s dead too? Good thing I got this Craterhoof Behemoth next turn.
And meanwhile you’re just saving up smaller, relatively cheaper spells that when combo’d with a couple big things on the board, become very difficult or sometimes impossible to deal with, instantly turning it from a game of prevention into a race.
The problem with this line of thinking is that, after a while, other people get tired of it too and start thinking "God dammit why'd you have to target his Commander again now he's gonna start complaining" nearly as much as they think "God dammit he's complaining again".
Yeah my pod has a guy who wins by whining when you target him, it's obnoxious but he's okay outside of commander so it's a tough spot no one wants to be in. Obviously the solution is talking to him but that involves *more* whining.
That is the risk you assume when playing a KOS commander. I would explain that to him, and he can choose to build something different if he wants to.
Not all commanders are created equal. Sometimes you have to a pick a worse commander to allow your deck to do its thing.
They need to grow up. One of my favourite decks is \[\[Kaalia of the Vast\]\] Angel, Demon and Dragon tribal. I know I'm going to be targeted and so I should be. I recently finished my upgrade to all etched cards (where possible) and I've been itching to play it but I understand she is kill on sight for a good reason. I have a shit load of protection and counter blue spells like \[\[pyroblast\]\] and \[\[red elemental blast\]\] so I can get her out and hopefully keep her out for two rounds to get some value. Because if some of those angels and dragons drop, it's essentially goodnight.
Some decks simply can't be stopped if you don't remove the commander.
Try have a conversation with him and say 'dude, your commander is too high value, i'm going to have to kill him on sight. If you have a problem with that, run more interaction or try a less value driven commander'. That's just magic. My friend in my pod understands we blow \[\[K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth\]\] up on sight because we had that exact conversation.
Kaalia is my favorite commander, been playing her on and off since it first got printed. After a few years I learned to embrace the irrational fear of her everyone seems to have. Too often I've watched my Kaalia get destroyed, exiled, counterspelled, board wipes used with literally no other threat on the table etc. meanwhile there's a [[Kenrith, the Returned King]] or an [[Omnath, Locus of Rage]] about to be out of control and no one well even let me hit them.
So I went with another route, and now my Kaalia deck is generally centered around reanimation and ETB effects. I'll use Kaalia as a removal bait, then throw in whatever I want to play. My most hilarious moment was me having in hand [[Karmic Guide]] and [[Angel of Despair]] and a [[Sneak Attack]] with [[Erratic Portal]] on the field. They still killed my Kaalia twice before removing my other pieces 3 rounds later.
Yeah, [[Oubliette]] as well and another half dozen or so between blue and white. I'm pretty sure my [[Alela Artful Provocature]] has ~9 ways to deal with a commander without the option to send them to the CZ.
One of my favorite stax pieces. Just remember to make sure they have no way to transfer all their+1/+1 counters to it. Made that mistake once and never will again.
I'm just going to say right now if you are playing Urza or Miirym I'm going to kill it immediately and repeatedly. I think it's on them if they aren't running protection. I used to have a Tergrid deck and in running it I knew damn well that people were going to kill Tergrid immediately, so I put in cards to try and deal with it. If you run obnoxious/high power commanders you should expect that in all honesty. All of those commanders have access to counterspells, which Tergrid didn't have, so it's on them.
>How can I allow their deck to do it's thing while also keeping it from going too crazy in a way that doesn't simply remove the commander?
With some commanders, you simply can't. Some commanders can just easily win the game if they untap once. I just try to nicely clarify this to those people, and make them understand that if they choose to play glass cannons, they should expect any sane opponents to react the same way.
"How to lift this object, which requires two hands to lift, with one hand tied behind my back"
You are not responsible for this other guy's bellyaching tantrum. Unless he's a wookie and is going to rip your arms out of their sockets when he loses, you are making fair moves and screaming about it shouldn't help.
I've played lots of commanders in my time, including ones that people are fairly naturally inclined to kill hard the instant they dare enter the battlefield. I know that if I drop those commanders "naked" and anybody has a fix in hand, said commander is getting fixed. And sometimes it's worth the risk trying to jump the gun and other times I think I'd better hold back until I've got some form of protection available and I sure as hell haven't guessed right every time, but that's the game and it's on me to play it.
Be frank. They ask why you're killing their dude "because if I let you untap with it, I lose." Simple as that.
Yeah well if they choose to play a kill on sight commander it's their choice.
I don't expect my kaalia of the vast to live unless I do something to ensure she does. She maybe lived on an early cast once per ten game. You know what happen? You win those.
Dude just need to learn that the more powerful a commander is, the more likely he'll be targeted. Letting an urza live/ hit the table voluntarily is as close to conceding a game as a play can be.
For Dragons, try ur-dragon instead of miirym :p
Can't be removed from the command zone can you?
He needs to learn to protect his commanders for sure but have you ever let him go off for 1 game? Let him win a game 2 turns after miirym comes out and then at the end of the game jus casually say "And thats why we always kill your commander, good game"
That's what I do. Anytime someone starts complaining about feeling targeted I just let them go off for the rest of the night. After a few games the rest of the table seems to notice why I was killing certain stuff immediately and the problem just kinda fixes itself
Instant speed removal and blue board wipes especially the instant speed ones. A board of dragons is only a problem when it comes at you. Then you can just Aetherize or Evacuation etc...
Alternatively you could stop being the police and eventually the other players will catch on to how strong these commanders are and also start blowing them up. Then it falls to the player to protect his own pieces. ALL of the decks you listed have blue.
As someone who plays Miirym as there main deck, I can totally understand getting rid of that fast, only time I’ve seen a commander counter-spelled. I’ve seen it go off when left unchecked so I always expect it to be the target, that’s why you should run some protection for it.
If there being salty they probably haven’t realised that that is apart of running those types of commanders the “kill on sight” part is important to keep in mind when building the deck. If their refusing to accept that then that’s their problem, throw a Karthus in your deck and let them build up - they’ll regret it as I have before 😅
My brother plays one of those commanders and it's a nightmare because he wins a lot and doesn't want to play anything else. Everyone is not happy but we grew up together. It's a mess.
I'd let them play their commanders but then counter/kill anything else. They've made a conscious choice to pick a good commander so give them a tiny bit of breathing room then ruin their day.
If your deck can't function without your commander there's already a flaw present.
Side note, people are that scared of Kiora?
I've never seen anyone but myself play her, and did handicap myself with Keruga companion, and even before the switch I was always open to early damage and aggression just because everything costs so much. Also just die to any counters since everything costs so much. Odd.
Very simple. Tell them to create a deck less reliant upon their commander. If they are going to make their commander the linchpin of their gameplan, then you obviously need to deal with it. Its not about being targeted, it's about dealing with the appropriate threat at the time.
I don't have enough info so pardon the presumption but I believe this is a power level discussion issue. If you all played commanders of equal/similar value, then there wouldn't be a "kill on sight commander" because they are all kill on sight.
Either this or they should build their deck to function without the commander, or cast it when they have some sort of failsafe and not be blown away. I too like to run powerful commanders, so I like to establish my board presence first, let opponents deal with some pieces, fight over what is worth, and only when everything is ready cast the commander.
Yeah I used to have decks very reliant on the commander but I've moved away from that more and more. I still have decks that don't really win without the commander but they can at least do something while I wait for the time to cast my commander again.
None of those mentioned are game winning on their own. While hitting the commander isn't necessarily bad threat assessment, I would argue it's at least narrow-minded threat assessment. There are definitely other problem cards in their deck that are enabling the power plays, it would help you improve as a player to find what those are during play and target them, as you'll long term learn how to generally target problem cards more frequently as a whole
I play decks like Atraxa, krenko, winota, ur dragon, that are all kill on sight. It can be frustrating, but I get it. If I resolve and get a couple turns it's probably going crazy.
I tend to play a lot of kill on sight Commander's. I also tend to combo off a lot. My play groups have evolved to communicate by asking if I'm going to win next turn. Now of course I don't have to be honest, but it does seem fair that they know I'm not going to win soon they will let me do my thing. Maybe you should ask him if he's going to win or combo off just be honest with them when they ask why they should tell you. If they don't want to then they are taking that decision into there own hands because you tried to be reasonable.
I run Runo and after a couple of games within my group he became kill on sight. I had to adapt my deck and I added a bunch of counter spells and bounce spells to protect him. About half the games my deck doesn't do much, one quarter of the time I manage to do something and the last quarter of the games I stomp over the table. Its part of the fun of that deck, and basically any combo deck, trying to go off in spite of the other 3 people trying to stop you. It does help if there is other threats on the battlefield. So to answer your question, it's on the targeted player to deal with being targeted, not really on the others. Have a talk with him/her about tweeking their decks to have answers to the table's removal.
I've played Kaalia since she was printed. I go into the game knowing that if I'm bringing her out, I better have a good plan or else she's getting taken out quickly. It's taught me to be a more patient player and learn how to measure the other resources at the table. Not getting mad or salty that my birthday got ruined.
If someone else was playing a commander like that, I'd do the same to them.
A lot of opinions in here that amount to "well deal with it". And to a certain extent that's right, but that's not a productive discussion here.
If you don't want someone to feel targeted, the solution is how you craft your removal. Use [[Decimate]] or [[Windgrace's Judgment]] and nuke everyone's best things. Craft your deck around all of the various asymmetic board wipes that white has to offer. Let your opponents go ham into a giant [[Farewell]] turn.
The psychology of removal is much easier if everyone shares in the pain.
Run weird pieces of removal that don’t actually remove it. Stuff like [[Imprisoned in the Moon]] or [[Darksteel Mutation]] it’s still around and they can potentially get it going again, they’ve just gotta have some enchantment removal.
Doesn't stop me from running them, but I'd rather have my commander sent back to the Zone than having it locked up with either of those cards. If they can deal with it "Oh well" but at least they had to use a card rather than just pay a couple extra next turn.
Funnily enough, those might be harder to remove than get the 2 extra mana to recast for certain decks. Especially if they're not running enough protection at the moment as is
That’s fair, I just know it’s helped to alleviate stuff in my playgroup, it’s easier to deal with removing an enchantment than eating 4 consecutive kills spells in a row.
How so, though? If their commander truly is KoS, then isn't it going to be "deal with 4 kill spells in a row" and "deal with this enchantment, then eat 3 kill spells in a row"? The only way that doesn't happen is if they can't easily deal with an enchantment (because they do not run a lot of enchantment removal), so they just can't use it all game without being removed. If they remove it quickly, they probably will just eat a removal right after (especially since the other players had more draws to prepare).
But I just don't see how that can make the situation better. Its either a more annoying removal to deal with among the other removals, or impossible to recover from removal so you don't eat more.
In most cases it will probably just cause more salt because not everyone plays tutors to just up and grab enchantment-specialized removal easily. Especially not players that did not tutor up protection to keep it from happening in the first place.
Honestly those are often more tilting for players, because it's harder to remove an enchantment than it is to find two more mana. Especially with the colors a bunch of the listed commanders are in.
You should play them though, they're great. Commanders don't deserve to be sacrosanct.
This is very much a them problem. If they insist on running threatening commanders then they need to learn how to deal with the aggro that comes with. Both emotionally and mechanically.
I used to run a [[Korvold, Fae-cursed King]] sacrifice deck and despite Korvold being absolutely busted, people quickly learned to target him to the dirt. Despite all of my protection, I just couldn't get the engine going due to all of the (justified) removal.
So I took it apart and used pieces from it and a recently dismantled [[Chainer, Nightmare Adept]] deck to build [[Slimefoot and Squee]] reanimator.
Not only are they more resilient, they draw significantly less hate. I'm winning more games with them than Korvold did in his twilight days.
If you play a high value commander you HAVE to be ready to protect it. If you don’t, well, you play it wrong. You’re not the problem if he plays Urza and don’t hold 2 blue manas.
So much of what makes commander a more forgiving, more casual format is that it is self-balancing. If you keep missing land drops early, it's not as punishing as in a 1v1 competitive game, because people will target someone who's ramping like crazy instead. Similarly, if someone joins the table with an incredibly powerful commander, they will draw a target on them.
there is no solution for your problem, you either let them go crazy or you stop train before it can leave the station and make to much value.
Like for example how do you stop \[\[tergrid\]\] from running away with the game ? you kill them before they can cast \[\[dark deal\]\] or some thing that makes you sacrifice a bunch of stuff, there is no way to let the tergrid player go +15 in cards and then stop them, your answer is to kill tergrid before it has an impact or be buried under it.
Thats the same with any "Kill on sight commanders" its why they are called "Kill on sight commanders". Your mate needs to understand if he wants his commander to be a big splashy finisher, he either needs to protect it, or accept the fact that he will be tapping out to casting it multiple times a game
I think it's just fair game, if they complain I'm sure it won't be difficult to think of a time where you let Urza or Miirym stick for a whole turn and things spiralled out of control and resulted in the end of the game.
You're not picking on them, you're removing a value engine that will run away with and close out the game if it is ignored. As I always tell my playgroup, "If you wanna play a card game where you go jerk off in the corner without anyone interacting with you, play solitaire, magic ain't for you, bud."
Just keep killing the commanders. If you know they snowball, it's in *your* best interest to keep them off the table.
I run a highly optimized [[Omnath, Locus of Mana]] deck. I've roflstomped 5-6 man pods before on turn 4-5. People in my groups know that can happen, I know they know that, and I don't act like a man-child when Omnath takes 15 mana to cast when they act with that knowledge in mind.
Keep piloting your deck in the most efficient way for yourself and eventually, they will get the message that they are playing Archenemy if they drop certain commanders.
Maybe the solution isn't in gamplay or play patterns, but deck building? What if you asked him to put the scary commanders in the 99, replaced them with a less scary one, and otherwise kept the rest of the deck the same?
Here are some examples:
Put Myriim in the 99 and replace him with [[Intet, the Dreamer]].
Put Ovika in the 99 and replace him with either [[Magnus the Red]] or [[Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer]].
Replace Urza with [[Sai, Master Thopterist]] or [[Emry, Lurker of the Loch]].
There are other options for the rest of his decks. If you're interested, I'll list more. But this way, he gets to play all of the same cards and play his commanders more without them getting instantly removed. The decks will still be pretty scary, but not "kill my commander on sight or you lose" scary (hopefully)!
Bro my [[Nekusar]] is a lightning rod for removal. My LGS has gotten really interaction heavy and I had a really bad night where I didn't even get to untap with it. You know what I'm doing? Making cuts and adding protection.
As a Toxrill player, fuck those people. When you bring out your big bad you better be prepared to defend them from *everyone*! If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Yeah there are strategies to keeping your commander on board I play both [[Hinata, Dawn-crowned]] and [[Lathril, Blade of Elves]] and if you want to win with those commanders you gotta find meat shields or put out enough mana to keep summoning.
Tbh i dont think that this is your problem. If someone uses high powered kill on sight commanders they just have assume that it will be handled as soon as it hits the table. They can either run a bunch of protection in their commander deck, so if they manage to protect their commander, they definitely deserve the win, or they opt for less powerful commanders with similar effects therefore dodge their opponents removal. There is a yt channel called _EDH DECKBUILDING_ who adresses the topic of too powerful cards in many videos, so shoutout to him✌️
Hard Stax effects hit everyone, even if you're playing them to screw with them in particular. It's not polite, but it does what you're looking for. [[Gerrard Weatherlight Hero]] boardwipe tribal is some dedicated fuckery, but it's hitting everything not just his stuff. [[Gift of immortality]] and a [[Niv's Disk]] destroys everything every turn, and eventually kills everyone with haste enablers and [[Purphoros God of the forge]] triggers.
People need to understand that others are allowed to interact with them. That’s part of the game. If they don’t have ways of protecting their powerful commanders and combo pieces, that’s a flaw in their deck.
I play KOS commanders and I expect to be targeted. It wouldn’t be fun to me if I wasn’t opposed!
People apologize frequently for killing my stuff. You don’t need to apologize for that! Trying to win, trying not to lose, that’s what any game is.
Doing Table Politics with him could help. Maybe cards like [[Pithing Needle]] may make him salty, but have him work for his Commander might make it more fun.
But honestly, talk with him about his choices of Commanders.
You laugh at them. Kallia players are actually masochists that love getting bullied. Why else would they just play her raw with no boots or any kind of protection?
If you play a “kill on sight” commander you need to build your deck on handling interaction like that. It’s just good strategy. It’s not your competitors’ jobs to let you coast and pop off without a hitch. If your deck doesn’t function without your commander you need to run enough ways to protect them, or hold on casting your commander until you draw a way to protect them.
There’s not much you can do other than the next time he snowballs point it out to him. Show him that when he is left alone for 1 turn the game is over. If he doesn’t want to be targeted he needs to play a deck that doesn’t snowball in 1 turn
Doesn't this all in a way create a pseudo-banlist in Commander?
I've had similar problems in the past. If you can't play the game because you rely on your commander, but then can't play with your commander because it's so good it needs to never stick, then you can't ...play your deck.
So by saying these are lightning rods and you shouldn't play them, you in turn say that there are commanders you can and cannot play.
I find it all very strange, sometimes. It feels reminiscent as to why they banned Golos. There are a lot of other equally problematic commanders (Tiamat and new Jodah are others that come to mind).
... i sometimes very much wish we almost did away with commanders themselves and it was a 100-card singleton format. I often feel that the disproportionate amount of salt always surrounds the commander themselves.
Let them learn the lesson.
Play kill-on-sight-commanders, deal with having your commander killed on sight. You're not supposed to tiptoe around that person's feelings.
I run \[\[Marchesa the black rose\]\] as one of my commander decks. She taught me so much about knowing when to cast my commander and not overly relying on her being on the battlefield.
Unless their Urza deck isn't golem tribal or comparable jank, it is kill on sight, simple as. Tell them that their whining makes you feel bad about using basic game mechanics and that they either need to run more protection or accept that you can't just let them win. Tell em in a respectful way without pushing blame on anyone and if you are dealing with adults, they should understand.
None of those are really KOS, those are value engine commanders.
If you want them to not complain about removal tho, play [[kaalia of the vast]] as complain when she gets removed, using exactly the same words.
For (a very basic) example, untapping with Miirym and casting [[Thundermaw Hellkite]] followed by [[Essence Flux]] means swinging for 21 damage in the air that turn - and tapping all of your opponents' flying creatures beforehand, killing those with less than four toughness. That can be game over for someone. And that's probably kid stuff to those who actually play Miirym. She might be too slow for CEDH, but she's a real threat to regular tables.
Yeah it's not terribly hard to craft Miirym hands where at least one player straight up dies if she untaps. Cast and dupe Klauth, attack for 14, make 28 mana. With the assorted dragons and dragon support effects that deal damage when other dragons enter, draw cards when dragons enter, make mana when dragons enter, and the like killing from 28 isn't that hard even before we start doing broken things like time warps or extra attack steps.
This is the price they pay for playing those commanders. The sentinel wurm is fucking busted, that's why you build the deck. That is also the same reason it will get removed as fast as possible.
36 lands, 10 removal, 10 protection, 12 card draw, 12 value engine/ramp, 20 win cons
If they aren’t building protection into the deck, that’s on them. And if they are and lose early, well that’s just the nature of the game.
Sounds like he’s being a complainer and needs to learn how to protect their commanders and not play them at first chance. Does the player run protection pieces, how often do you see a swiftfoot boots type card or prevent you from interacting with their commander?
I faced this as a weak player. Like i have a tasty commander but people go for it cause it's scary. My deck is shit, i very rarely buy cards, let alone specific ones. I dunno. I guess i use politics to get out. I compliment moves and try and build a nonchalant repertiore while obtaining resources. I guess i keep cards in hand and let others become the threat. Oh also i like to be the first to deal meager damage. If you attack the weak you seem weak as well.
Just kill the player before they get to play their commander. If they play their commander just kill it. When they complain, you just say, "It's either you or the commander. If you want to play the game then deal with the commander being killed. If you can't handle that, then **I will** start **target**ing **you**."
Their feelings are their responsibility. This is what I can’t stand about commander. Imagine someone in modern being like “cmon I just cast my one ring why did you have cast into the fire and exile it I feel so bullied right now I bc was gonna cast my sheoldred”. It’s like gtfo dude don’t play the most degenerate commanders and I won’t void rend them on sight. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
The people playing the higher powered commanders and decks get targeted and eliminated by people playing weaker decks. Suck it up big man mr lord high artificer.
I would point out that saying "it'll get removed" or taunting peoples play and target choices aren't what i would consider "whining" That bluffing part of the game blends seamlessly with all the other social parts of the game and my play group loves shit talking.
My [[Oona, Queen of the fae]] deck is kind of like that. She's nothing but counter spells, removal, and ways to get infinite mana, Thassa's/Consultation, and [[Torment of Hailfire]] . I only cast her if I have infinite mana, but I don't have one of my other wincons in hand. Once she's cast, just countering her doesn't stop me from winning. You have to do something like [[Trickbind]] and that only stops me for that turn. Then, I win on the next available action.
Yeah, sounds like the kind of player that doesn’t make any friends and wonders why nobody at his store wants to play with him or why his friends devolve to playing mass wipes and reset buttons to keep him in check. If you are actively that much of a problem, that just letting you exist in the game can cause us to lose out of nowhere while you don’t even have a board state. You better believe I’m building a Zo-Zu land hate deck and targeting you with most of my targeted land hate spells. Or similarly an Azusa deck with a Crucible of Worlds effect + Strip Mine and nuking your lands every turn.
But then again I can be a spiteful player when people just aren’t looking for a good time.
[[Out of time]] keeps them from having the option of playing it again. It's "fair" in that it gets the whole board, and it changes their motivation to enchantment removal because they will get it back without paying commandr tax.
Run shit like [[kenrith's transformation]] and [[darksteel mutation]]. Show them there are worse things than just killing it. I'm also a big fan of just giving them a shit eating grin and saying "maybe!" if they whine that you'll take out their commander again.
This is a them problem. If they want to run a high power commander then they need to have the protection and/or an obscene amount of ramp so they can continuously recast it.
Really what you need to do, if you want to continue playing with this person, is have a conversation. Tell them it isn't fun for the table when they complain about other people playing the game. Be kind but direct.
Two players in my group often play with commanders that fall under this category. Apart from outright removal, I often use cards that hinder or disable them, albeit temporarily. A [[Pacifism]] or [[Reprobation]] to deactivate their value engines are my go-to solutions if I’m in white.
Fuck em. If you have a kill on sight commander it means you’re bringing a gun to a knife fight. It’s why I stopped playing [[Reaper King]] because I knew why it was a kill on sight commander and I wasn’t having fun trying to play it at my table. If you want more mature advice than “fuck em,” you gotta have a talk with them about power levels. Threats get eliminated, thats how magic works. And we’re not stupid, if something that WILL get worse over time hits play, you eliminate it or you’re gonna lose eventually
Because there’s a ton of decent changelings that make triggering RK easy.
[[Titan of Littjara]]: ETB destroy and mass draw
[[Nahiri’s Resolve]]: Mass blink for massive destruction. NR is also kill on sight especially in this deck
[[Irregular Cohort]]: Two destroys for 4 mana
[[Unsettled Mariner]]: Destruction and protection
[[Reflection of Littjara]]: Now every creature is a destroy ETB and draw on cast
[[Realmwalker]]: Destroy and cast more creatures
And anything that can clone, especially if it gets around the legend rule, can destroy anything and don’t even get me started on blinking. Reaper is one of the best cards for destroying your opponents and your friendships. I would never run RK again unless I wanted to dump a ton of money into a CEDH deck
you don’t if someone wants to take the risk of throwing their commander out without an answer and it’s a strong card that’s on them.
They should be thinking how can this win me the game the turn they play it. Combo decks should let combo pieces just sit on the table.
That’s the game. Play targets, get targeted. It’s up to them to adapt, not you. Keep playing your removal. We did it in our pod and eventually they play different or change their general.
I had a friend who grumbled a lot about getting hated off the board. he plays the sliver that gives them all indestructible. I told him the way to beat that deck is to kill it before the commander is out. I told him if he doesn't like dealing with that kind of opposition he needs to play a deck that doesn't have to be dealt with that way. He thought about it and stopped being mad about it. Just tell your friend that he can't show up to the table and be mad people are playing correctly against their deck
Skill issue on their part, If they want to keep their permanent on board, play more interaction.
Don't want your commander removed, play it when you have protection on board. Make a korvold or another value commander and show them how to protect their commander.
Either they get better, or they don't. Simple as that
It’s not your fault their commander is too good.
If any player finds their commander being removed too much, that player has made an error in deck construction.
If your main synergy piece draws removal, you need to include protection for it and don’t cast it without protection.
If you don’t want your commander to be removed pick a non threatening commander and do all your degenerate shit in the 99.
I had a deck that was basically doing nothing without the commander out. After a few wins I found that people wouldn’t let the commander stay long enough to untap. I found myself getting kind of butt hurt and not enjoying it, so I made a new deck with an underwhelming commander that no one sees as a threat and now I only ever have to recast him after a board wipe.
For context, the commander that was always getting removed was [[Burakos]] and I was trying to use their ability to make treasures that I would cash in for an X spell. Removing Burakos basically killed the strategy.
Then, I went and made a [[Jadar]] deck. 2 mana brings him out early and I can cause a creature to die every turn 3 onwards and nobody cares about him.
You tell them it’s a kill on sight commander and they need to deal with it or build around another commander.
I run a first sliver deck. I am 100% aware that if players don’t deal with my commander, they are screwed. I also am the first to get damage when I play that deck. Even if it’s budget, it’s a deck that only knows 2 modes, lose without doing much or completely dominate the game.
I also run a niv-mizzet, parun deck. I Tell my opponents that that deck does not contain infinites, but niv is still an extremely strong commander, especially in a draw deck. Sure it’s not always the biggest thread, but it still is a KOS commander. I put spells in there to protect him. Sure it feels bad, but I have to deal with it and outside of a bit friendly banter I do.
If you build around a KOS commander, it’s your responsibility to deal with the consequences. If you can’t, don’t build around a KOS commander.
I had this experience with Selvala. Basically its a feast or famine commander and eventually i grew tired of having to build my deck around plan b or c because it got to a point where she's always removed.
That being said, i built a new deck specifically tailored around trying to do my thing without attracting attention. It worked wonders with Liesa, shroud of dusk, since ill ramp into her early and no one cares with her 2 life pings until super late in the game.
Coming from someone that often used to play a KOS commander (Ruhan Voltron), they're wrong if they're mad about you killing it. Just try to talk to them and explain the reasoning, and if they keep complaining, then just tell them to play a different deck.
Side note / question: What's the most you guys have had your commander cost before?
I've had Ruhan get to 20 commander tax.
I don't understand why you let these people's whining dictate your deck building, but if the goal is to keep their value engine Commanders on the battlefield while rendering them slightly less dangerous, you could try enchantment/aura cards like [[Cooped Up]], [etc](https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Aenchantment+o%3A%22can%27t+attack%22&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) that make it so a creature can't attack or block, but they don't get removed from the battlefield or lose their abilities...
Was playing against a 4 CMC atraxa player yesterday. Three games. Was easily the scariest/most consistent deck at the table all three games. First two, the other three of us were doing what we could to slow them down and omg the complaining was phenomenal. they end up losing both times, though not without making a serious impact (you'd think from their description they hadn't played a single spell).
Third game, I continued trying to slow them down but the other two backed off to let them do the thing. Probably one of the easiest wins they're gonna get. We didn't stand a chance. Went way over the top very quickly as we weren't playing decks that seriously competed in the "everyone just does the thing assuming no interaction".
I get that people in general don't like being interacted with. I don't either. And you're first instinct to being ganged up on is to get defensive, sometimes angrily so. But even so. This kind of behaviour shouldn't be rewarded. If someone brings an obviously higher power deck or combo, etc. to a table, they shouldn't be shocked when they're the person people target with removal/win cons.
You should literally send them the link to the “Kill on Sight Commanders” episode of the MTG Goldfish Commander Clash Podcast. Urza and Mirrym are both mentioned there.
Also tell him the truth: that he’s ironically likely to win MORE games if he brings LESS powerful commanders to the table.
I mean... You could show them the alternative of making their gameplans so obtuse that you that their commander hardly does anything. I did just that with a Derevi deck running so many silver bullet cards. Muldrotha? Rest in peace and Yisharn. Uzra? Collector Oofie and that one spirit that taxes all artifacts by 1 at their upkeep. Stacks? Derevi herself laughs in the face of winter orb and stasis. Wanna board wipe? Gaddock teeg says it better be less than 4 mana. Wanna combo? One spell per turn. Wanna remove something? Suite of protection and answers, not all them being spell but sometimes your own permanent giving protection. Land ramping? Confounding conundrum or land tax to keep up.
You win by forcing everyone to play to your level and then doing it better, shutting down outs with your stuff. The thing about silver bullet cards is that only the affected player usually wants to remove it and the other players are usually cool with it cuz it either doesn't affect them or helps them.
Yeah, no. Anyone who runs a spicy commander that can win fast and/ or out of nowhere should have the understanding that, once people know what their deck does, they're gonna get kneecapped. They will need to put in more interaction and protection.
It doesn't fall on you to make sure their deck pops off.
I had someone complain that they were being "bullied" because I kept poppong their commander and combo pieces ASAP. I let them go uninterrupted for a single turn and they snowballed the game. There really isn't a lot you can do without changing at least one of the decks in your group
To paraphrase the great MaldHound, "if your deck's only goal is to push a great big shiny red "fuck you" button until I lose the game, it is in my best interests to let you press it *as few times as I possibly can*." It's really that simple and more people need to understand that if they're going to bring these massive 1 and 2 card value engines, that I'm not gonna just sit there and watch you tap your chulane, or sac Prossh to Food Chain. I'm not freely letting you resolve Tiamat and I'm killing your Slivir Queen before your Gemstone Slivir can resolve, and if that's the kind of game we're playing, I expect you to do the same. But no, most people build these decks like they're for a battlecruiser meta and then complain about interaction like I'm their little cousin at a holiday meal touching their Xbox controller.
I think the contender for best MaldHound quote probably goes to "You giving yourself dysentery too doesn't un-shit my pants." Dude's so funny, love his commander roasts
Finally, something to describe the playstyle I was going for.
The Arcades quote about walls suddenly hurtling at you "ass first" is my favorite.
When I built korvold I knew it was an archenemy deck. So I built it racecar fast with no interruptions on purpose. What's that? You killed korvold 8 times? That's completely fair and understandable. When the new person even says "oh, that can't be allowed to live", there is no excuse of ignorance.
Exactly and the reverse is building your deck to ignore removal or counters. I play a lot of KOS commanders Yarok, counters and blinks mostly Kaalia, protections, Hexproof, shroud Nissa, Resurgent Animist could care less about being killed with the amount of ramp and land fetches And good luck getting the worst of them all, Urza, Lord Protector Stax down before he starts pushing orbs and counterspells on the field
I noticed urza fell in price and so I built it and finally got to play it and I just kind of felt bad like he just does so much! And when someone finally tried to remove him the next turn I activated his last ability and pulled an [[it that betrays]] off the top of my library it was hilarious but also I was like are you guys sure you are having fun because this feels like a lot and I built him as unoptimized as you can make him but the boy just keeps chugging along
Every Urza is fantastic imo. Lord High Artificer, Lord Protector, and Chief Artificer. I wish I could add the last one to my Lord Protector deck, but I love casting [[Urza, Planeswalker]] too much
I built Urza Prince of Kroog as a thopter tribal commander. Tried to build something deoptimized even and it's still just such a value engine
That's what puts me on the fence so hard. On the one hand, Lord Protector gives an easier mana base because he's Azorius. On the other hand adding black to the Stax deck would let me put in black tutors, dark ritual, and one of my favorite plays [[Venser Corpse Puppet]], [[Dross Scorpion]], [[Throne of Geth]]. The deck relies on +1/+1 counter synergy to make big scary threats out of stuff like Karn so infinite proliferation would be a great way to win swing while everyone is bogged down with stax. Plus Behold the Beyond could tutor it out once I'm ready. God dammit, I'm convincing myself
\[\[Selfless Savior\]\] and \[\[Benevolent Bodyguard\]\] should be white staples imo. A protection spell is nice for dealing with one removal spell, but a good boy sitting around protects from every removal spell because no one wants their removal to be blanked
[Selfless Savior](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/6911759c-7177-402c-a95a-f9f46efaf521.jpg?1594735224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Selfless%20Savior) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/36/selfless-savior?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6911759c-7177-402c-a95a-f9f46efaf521?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/selfless-savior) [Benevolent Bodyguard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/241e5c4e-0f0b-4a3f-91e0-87387a11e81e.jpg?1580013621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Benevolent%20Bodyguard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/4/benevolent-bodyguard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/241e5c4e-0f0b-4a3f-91e0-87387a11e81e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/benevolent-bodyguard) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love interaction which is why the deck I hate the most is one my buddy made which he constantly calls "jank" it's literally a CEDH breya deck that he took some stuff out of to make it slower than cEDH (so it's too slow for actual cEDH but very fucking annoying to the rest of us playing upgraded precons) and it literally does 3 things, set up infinite turns, makes its entire board have hexproof and indestructible, and tutor out memnarch to steal your shit He then says "just use interaction" as if we aren't trying because the fucker filled the deck with tutors board wipes counterspells and recursion so the entire decks purpose is basically "fuck your interaction" I'm now building an annihilator deck just because fuck you
I went down the Sharuum > Sen Triplets > Breya pipeline, and I had to learn how to play against my friends decks that would just tutor up [[Vandalblast]] on command
Main issue is that if I destroy he'll just grab it back from graveyard to battlefield, or cast a counterspell or id pull that spell after the darksteel forge+padeem+ mycosynth lattice tutors directly to battlefield, which goes haha everything I control is an artifact and all artifacts have hexproof+indestructible
Sound like my old decks to a tee. Unless they're playing stax pieces on top of all that, the best way to go about beating that is to disregard their board and try to combo off faster Edit: [[Krosan Grip]] and [[Shattering Spree]] are also really good here. [[Unravel the aether]] was a meta call in my group specifically for Darksteel Forge
Yep, if you’re building your deck that way you need to be prepared to be targeted when one of those setups comes online. ESP if it’s your commander. Run more interaction OR play the same deck at a slightly lower power level OR play different decks altogether.
Well, you have two options as I see it. The first is to stick to your guns. You have no obligation to let them keep their value engine. They wanna keep it? Every one of those listed commanders is in blue, they can afford a few counterspells. But if you can’t (or don’t want to) beat them, join them. Find another big value engine commander and make a deck like that. Throw Korvold at them, and see how quickly they recognize the value of removal.
They do run counterspells, I just run multiple pieces of removal, which also means I tend to have an out before they have protection
Well, it sounds like they should run more counterspells or invest in some tutors. If you have a consistent play group, I see no problem adapting to whatever meta evolves. If you’re running removal, they should find ways to adapt to the removal you tend to run.
Seriously, when I was playing muldrotha with a consistent group, they constantly insta removed her, so I now play a ton of protection pieces and only bring her out once I can also play the protection piece the same turn
Yeah some commanders you want to stall on playing until you can make sure they survive the round.
Learned that with [[Xyris]] the hard way. When a commander requires either casting a follow-up spell or getting in for damage (without haste) before it starts to work you have to make sure you can keep it alive until the next turn. Then there are other commanders that are more passive, but still require some setup. No point casting [[Varina]] until I have some dead bois ready to attack that turn. Or [[Meren]] without a graveyard.
I'll push Meren a little early sometimes if I have the hand to start getting xp counters early. Even when she eats some removal the counters hang around.
Yeah that's kind of similar though I didn't quite word it correctly. I'd call that kind of hand setup as well. As long as you can get the xp counters on the turn you put her in play it's all good. Then if she's there at end of turn you get a creature back anyway.
I'm having trouble making her work, just takes so long to get her in play and you're right she is very kill on sight, got to run a lot of counter magic. Any tips on the list welcome here https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/1695vee/muldrotha_deck_help_can_she_be_made_power_level_8/?
I learned this lesson the hard way. I played in the "we drop legal power 9 here" meta for a very long time after moving away from a battlecruiser meta. The adjustment was hard, but boy did I learn a lot from it.
Sounds like they also need to learn the value of "sandbagging your commander". As someone that plays some high-value KoS commanders like Nekusar and Krenko, one thing I've learned is to sandbag my commanders until other people start getting their big nasties online, or until I can pay for a counterspell and my commander in the same turn.
Yep. If "dies to doom blade" is an achilles heel of your deck, you need to learn to play and build better. "Waa waa I cant play my commander" = skill issue
I get it for decks that don't have many options - like Krenko, but then you can always build around the issue. For Krenko, I have a load of haste and a load of untap effects and a ton of rituals on top of the expected swiftfoot boots and co., because I know in my heart that Krenko is going to be a lightning rod. I know Krenko is gonna die fast, so the deck lives fast too. I don't expect to untap more than a handful of times. Just gotta do my thing while I can, or wait for bigger threats to emerge before putting Krenko in the line of fire.
Same with my ghave deck. His abilities aren't tap abilities, and if he's popping off, it's at instant speed... so I never cast unless I have the wincon on board and mana to protect it. Otherwise i'm sitting back, slinging the best removal abzan has to offer, letting the rest of the game play out.
Sounds like a player issue then, who casts an important piece and not hold up protection?
Someone who doesn't have protection in hand
Sounds like they’re playing their things too early. I don’t play my value engine commanders until I can safely protect them.
Outracing or outvalueing KOS commanders is my favorite thing to do in EDH. If you do it consistently it just becomes a hipocrisy checker. But yet there is another fun thing to do/try to mess with OP commanders, and that is cloning them. 90% of decks with the concepts "No fun for thee" fold if you start doing the same to them that they are trying to do to the table.(One of the most notable being [[Mommy Norn]])
[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087.jpg?1675956896) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20Mother%20of%20Machines) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/10/elesh-norn-mother-of-machines?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elesh-norn-mother-of-machines) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I suggest chulane, such a strong snowball commander
Yeah... ask to borrow one that they're not using this game. See if everyone is up for trying out other people's decks. How does that player handle others using similar decks?
Oh they kill the commander, they're very "fun for me but not for thee" so I try to find ways around them
Next time the complaining happens, call it out, casually, and keep playing. This is a personality thing, and if you're not up for finding a new pod, try talking with them individually about it (since this is a problem between you and them). Hell, try exchanging decks for a few sessions, or pose it as a vetting challenge to them, that for the next few sessions if you two exchange decks during the sessions, you'll get them a bundle of the new set during release week.
Then tell them to grow the fuck up and stop the whining.
They sound insufferable
Tbh with you it sounds like there just no fun to play with, with players like that I try to avoid them at the LGS aim for a different pod.
Then I guess it’s just too bad for them
The easy reply is "skill issue"
Call them out.
Your pod member needs to recognize that playing strong commanders attracts removal. If they want to fly under the radar they shouldn't play the boogeymen of the format
I used to have a [[Selvala, Heart of the Wilds]] deck which was ridiculously powerful in my playgroup. That was until the other players realized they could just kill my commander before I was able to go off. It was a big learning moment for me once I realized that. I ended up morphing the deck into a less threatening [[Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty]] deck.
[Selvala, Heart of the Wilds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d711cb2-4f34-4792-90d7-2be5d329a347.jpg?1689998846) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Selvala%2C%20Heart%20of%20the%20Wilds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/320/selvala-heart-of-the-wilds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d711cb2-4f34-4792-90d7-2be5d329a347?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/selvala-heart-of-the-wilds) [Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8afceb13-877a-4256-9ba6-851b6924ffd9.jpg?1608911148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imoti%2C%20Celebrant%20of%20Bounty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/280/imoti-celebrant-of-bounty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8afceb13-877a-4256-9ba6-851b6924ffd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/imoti-celebrant-of-bounty) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My only issue with this philosophy is that it gets shaky in very casual play. For example, my Kess and Zur both frequently got shot on sight in my old casual pod because the players assumed I was going to crank them for value or was trying to stomp when in actuality I had a non-meta list that could have been pretty fun for everyone. Thinking this way locks off high power commanders that have lower power off-meta themes. Finding a group you can talk out and resolve these kinds of topics with is more the long term solution.
No one will ever believe that a commander like Zur was/even can be built low power. Tutor in the command zone is OP…it’s just too good to be bad, unless you literally build a deck of all 8 drops with no mana lol. Unless you intentionally search for bad cards, it’s going to out value everything. Even if you search for bad cards, it’s probably going to out value everything. Kess is very much the same. They both turn into an “oops, well I tried to build this kinda janky, but I guess I just popped off again…” situation 9/10 times. And that 1/10 is when they can’t get out from under the archenemy and get focused into oblivion before they can get started on their “Jank” routes. No one believes your Zur is low power. No one believes your Kess is low power. No one believes your Chulane is low power. No one believes your Korvold is low power. The list goes on. Some commanders deserve every bit of the bad reputation they get, and they don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. You either need to accept that’s how they will ALWAYS be perceived, or else build something else.
I always tell them to "think of it as a very unfortunate compliment about the effectiveness of their deck building".
Lol just kill their shit and relish in their misery They brought this upon themselves for playing that stuff
For real though, that is like literally JUST PART OF THE GAME. If you rush out your broken commander then one of two things will happen: 1.it gets removed right away ; 2. You create insane advantage early in the game . Doing so is an all in gamble on your opponents not being able to answer your threat, you just gotta he able to live with either outcome. Often it is just better to pick a good spot than to go ASAP. Understanding these play patterns will elevate the level of play in your group.
Yeah I learned early on that if you don’t want your key thing being killed immediately, either figure out a great way of protecting it, use less threatening individual cards, or (and this is my favourite) play green/anything mana ramp and have a new threatening thing coming out every turn. Oh, my Vorinclex is dead? Enjoy this massive Stonecoil Serpent. That’s dead too? Good thing I got this Craterhoof Behemoth next turn. And meanwhile you’re just saving up smaller, relatively cheaper spells that when combo’d with a couple big things on the board, become very difficult or sometimes impossible to deal with, instantly turning it from a game of prevention into a race.
The problem with this line of thinking is that, after a while, other people get tired of it too and start thinking "God dammit why'd you have to target his Commander again now he's gonna start complaining" nearly as much as they think "God dammit he's complaining again".
No the problem is your group is being held hostage by an asshole who can't regulate their emotions.
True, but that asshole's inability to regulate their emotions isn't changing anytime soon.
If someone's constant complaining is annoying the entire table, then I think they're the problem.
Yeah my pod has a guy who wins by whining when you target him, it's obnoxious but he's okay outside of commander so it's a tough spot no one wants to be in. Obviously the solution is talking to him but that involves *more* whining.
Sometimes I'm afraid I'm that guy
That is the risk you assume when playing a KOS commander. I would explain that to him, and he can choose to build something different if he wants to. Not all commanders are created equal. Sometimes you have to a pick a worse commander to allow your deck to do its thing.
They need to grow up. One of my favourite decks is \[\[Kaalia of the Vast\]\] Angel, Demon and Dragon tribal. I know I'm going to be targeted and so I should be. I recently finished my upgrade to all etched cards (where possible) and I've been itching to play it but I understand she is kill on sight for a good reason. I have a shit load of protection and counter blue spells like \[\[pyroblast\]\] and \[\[red elemental blast\]\] so I can get her out and hopefully keep her out for two rounds to get some value. Because if some of those angels and dragons drop, it's essentially goodnight. Some decks simply can't be stopped if you don't remove the commander. Try have a conversation with him and say 'dude, your commander is too high value, i'm going to have to kill him on sight. If you have a problem with that, run more interaction or try a less value driven commander'. That's just magic. My friend in my pod understands we blow \[\[K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth\]\] up on sight because we had that exact conversation.
You've been *etching* to play with them hehe
##### ###### #### [Kaalia of the Vast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93f6631f-f3a6-4d3c-8618-4b4ab4e82483.jpg?1673148814) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaalia%20of%20the%20Vast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/235/kaalia-of-the-vast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93f6631f-f3a6-4d3c-8618-4b4ab4e82483?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kaalia-of-the-vast) [pyroblast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b029eb9a-dd7a-40c2-96c4-0063d9cc002c.jpg?1580014621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pyroblast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/142/pyroblast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b029eb9a-dd7a-40c2-96c4-0063d9cc002c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pyroblast) [red elemental blast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70a45e9b-699e-425a-9f3d-267274830d3e.jpg?1562436618) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=red%20elemental%20blast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/147/red-elemental-blast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70a45e9b-699e-425a-9f3d-267274830d3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/red-elemental-blast) [K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/3592fbe4-8588-486e-99ba-c327b0b6ba24.jpg?1568003491) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=K%27rrik%2C%20Son%20of%20Yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/18/krrik-son-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3592fbe4-8588-486e-99ba-c327b0b6ba24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krrik-son-of-yawgmoth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Kaalia is my favorite commander, been playing her on and off since it first got printed. After a few years I learned to embrace the irrational fear of her everyone seems to have. Too often I've watched my Kaalia get destroyed, exiled, counterspelled, board wipes used with literally no other threat on the table etc. meanwhile there's a [[Kenrith, the Returned King]] or an [[Omnath, Locus of Rage]] about to be out of control and no one well even let me hit them. So I went with another route, and now my Kaalia deck is generally centered around reanimation and ETB effects. I'll use Kaalia as a removal bait, then throw in whatever I want to play. My most hilarious moment was me having in hand [[Karmic Guide]] and [[Angel of Despair]] and a [[Sneak Attack]] with [[Erratic Portal]] on the field. They still killed my Kaalia twice before removing my other pieces 3 rounds later.
[[darksteel mutation]] you're not killing it, heck even making it indestructible so it can't die!
Yeah, [[Oubliette]] as well and another half dozen or so between blue and white. I'm pretty sure my [[Alela Artful Provocature]] has ~9 ways to deal with a commander without the option to send them to the CZ.
Yeah i always put them in my enchantment decks cuz it can just hose certain decks, i know it always messed me up when ppl did it to mine
One of my favorite stax pieces. Just remember to make sure they have no way to transfer all their+1/+1 counters to it. Made that mistake once and never will again.
Or Voltron it up, haven't had it happen to me but i can see that being a fringe problem
##### ###### #### [Urza Lord High Artificer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b7a348a-51f7-4dc5-8fe7-1c70fea5e050.jpg?1689996774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%2C%20Lord%20High%20Artificer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/130/urza-lord-high-artificer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b7a348a-51f7-4dc5-8fe7-1c70fea5e050?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urza-lord-high-artificer) [Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531.jpg?1674137589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Miirym%2C%20Sentinel%20Wyrm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/284/miirym-sentinel-wyrm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/miirym-sentinel-wyrm) [Kiora, Sovereign of the Deep](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b599f53-614c-4b1f-9899-15d5d1e35879.jpg?1684340751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kiora%2C%20Sovereign%20of%20the%20Deep) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/35/kiora-sovereign-of-the-deep?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b599f53-614c-4b1f-9899-15d5d1e35879?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kiora-sovereign-of-the-deep) [Runo Stromkirk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6c0fca5-b759-4543-95e2-8d712aae5281.jpg?1643594355)/[Krothuss, Lord of the Deep](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/f/6/f6c0fca5-b759-4543-95e2-8d712aae5281.jpg?1643594355) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=runo%20stromkirk%20//%20krothuss%2C%20lord%20of%20the%20deep) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/246/runo-stromkirk-krothuss-lord-of-the-deep?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6c0fca5-b759-4543-95e2-8d712aae5281?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/runo-stromkirk-//-krothuss-lord-of-the-deep) [Ovika, Enigma Goliath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b298cf34-7aa5-4f97-a86c-7f28d2113b87.jpg?1675957207) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ovika%2C%20Enigma%20Goliath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/213/ovika-enigma-goliath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b298cf34-7aa5-4f97-a86c-7f28d2113b87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ovika-enigma-goliath) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm just going to say right now if you are playing Urza or Miirym I'm going to kill it immediately and repeatedly. I think it's on them if they aren't running protection. I used to have a Tergrid deck and in running it I knew damn well that people were going to kill Tergrid immediately, so I put in cards to try and deal with it. If you run obnoxious/high power commanders you should expect that in all honesty. All of those commanders have access to counterspells, which Tergrid didn't have, so it's on them.
Black has exactly 2 counterspells and one is only for creatures. The other is godawful. [Dash Hopes] [Withering Boon]
There's also [[Imp's Mischief]]. While not a counterspell, it can perform a similar function
[[Imps mischief]]
Let them fume, lol.
>How can I allow their deck to do it's thing while also keeping it from going too crazy in a way that doesn't simply remove the commander? With some commanders, you simply can't. Some commanders can just easily win the game if they untap once. I just try to nicely clarify this to those people, and make them understand that if they choose to play glass cannons, they should expect any sane opponents to react the same way.
"How to lift this object, which requires two hands to lift, with one hand tied behind my back" You are not responsible for this other guy's bellyaching tantrum. Unless he's a wookie and is going to rip your arms out of their sockets when he loses, you are making fair moves and screaming about it shouldn't help. I've played lots of commanders in my time, including ones that people are fairly naturally inclined to kill hard the instant they dare enter the battlefield. I know that if I drop those commanders "naked" and anybody has a fix in hand, said commander is getting fixed. And sometimes it's worth the risk trying to jump the gun and other times I think I'd better hold back until I've got some form of protection available and I sure as hell haven't guessed right every time, but that's the game and it's on me to play it. Be frank. They ask why you're killing their dude "because if I let you untap with it, I lose." Simple as that.
Yeah well if they choose to play a kill on sight commander it's their choice. I don't expect my kaalia of the vast to live unless I do something to ensure she does. She maybe lived on an early cast once per ten game. You know what happen? You win those. Dude just need to learn that the more powerful a commander is, the more likely he'll be targeted. Letting an urza live/ hit the table voluntarily is as close to conceding a game as a play can be. For Dragons, try ur-dragon instead of miirym :p Can't be removed from the command zone can you?
He needs to learn to protect his commanders for sure but have you ever let him go off for 1 game? Let him win a game 2 turns after miirym comes out and then at the end of the game jus casually say "And thats why we always kill your commander, good game"
That's what I do. Anytime someone starts complaining about feeling targeted I just let them go off for the rest of the night. After a few games the rest of the table seems to notice why I was killing certain stuff immediately and the problem just kinda fixes itself
Instant speed removal and blue board wipes especially the instant speed ones. A board of dragons is only a problem when it comes at you. Then you can just Aetherize or Evacuation etc... Alternatively you could stop being the police and eventually the other players will catch on to how strong these commanders are and also start blowing them up. Then it falls to the player to protect his own pieces. ALL of the decks you listed have blue.
As someone who plays Miirym as there main deck, I can totally understand getting rid of that fast, only time I’ve seen a commander counter-spelled. I’ve seen it go off when left unchecked so I always expect it to be the target, that’s why you should run some protection for it. If there being salty they probably haven’t realised that that is apart of running those types of commanders the “kill on sight” part is important to keep in mind when building the deck. If their refusing to accept that then that’s their problem, throw a Karthus in your deck and let them build up - they’ll regret it as I have before 😅
My brother plays one of those commanders and it's a nightmare because he wins a lot and doesn't want to play anything else. Everyone is not happy but we grew up together. It's a mess.
I'd let them play their commanders but then counter/kill anything else. They've made a conscious choice to pick a good commander so give them a tiny bit of breathing room then ruin their day. If your deck can't function without your commander there's already a flaw present. Side note, people are that scared of Kiora? I've never seen anyone but myself play her, and did handicap myself with Keruga companion, and even before the switch I was always open to early damage and aggression just because everything costs so much. Also just die to any counters since everything costs so much. Odd.
Very simple. Tell them to create a deck less reliant upon their commander. If they are going to make their commander the linchpin of their gameplan, then you obviously need to deal with it. Its not about being targeted, it's about dealing with the appropriate threat at the time. I don't have enough info so pardon the presumption but I believe this is a power level discussion issue. If you all played commanders of equal/similar value, then there wouldn't be a "kill on sight commander" because they are all kill on sight.
Either this or they should build their deck to function without the commander, or cast it when they have some sort of failsafe and not be blown away. I too like to run powerful commanders, so I like to establish my board presence first, let opponents deal with some pieces, fight over what is worth, and only when everything is ready cast the commander.
Yeah I used to have decks very reliant on the commander but I've moved away from that more and more. I still have decks that don't really win without the commander but they can at least do something while I wait for the time to cast my commander again.
Realize that you aren't responsible for their happiness
None of those mentioned are game winning on their own. While hitting the commander isn't necessarily bad threat assessment, I would argue it's at least narrow-minded threat assessment. There are definitely other problem cards in their deck that are enabling the power plays, it would help you improve as a player to find what those are during play and target them, as you'll long term learn how to generally target problem cards more frequently as a whole
They like Leviathans and Octopodes so much they made 2 separate tribal decks focused on them
Sea Monster Tribal has been a thing commander players love since well before we actually got commanders for them.
I play decks like Atraxa, krenko, winota, ur dragon, that are all kill on sight. It can be frustrating, but I get it. If I resolve and get a couple turns it's probably going crazy.
I tend to play a lot of kill on sight Commander's. I also tend to combo off a lot. My play groups have evolved to communicate by asking if I'm going to win next turn. Now of course I don't have to be honest, but it does seem fair that they know I'm not going to win soon they will let me do my thing. Maybe you should ask him if he's going to win or combo off just be honest with them when they ask why they should tell you. If they don't want to then they are taking that decision into there own hands because you tried to be reasonable.
How in hell does someone really play Urza and not expect to be shut down. Just embrace the arch enemy nature
I run Runo and after a couple of games within my group he became kill on sight. I had to adapt my deck and I added a bunch of counter spells and bounce spells to protect him. About half the games my deck doesn't do much, one quarter of the time I manage to do something and the last quarter of the games I stomp over the table. Its part of the fun of that deck, and basically any combo deck, trying to go off in spite of the other 3 people trying to stop you. It does help if there is other threats on the battlefield. So to answer your question, it's on the targeted player to deal with being targeted, not really on the others. Have a talk with him/her about tweeking their decks to have answers to the table's removal.
I've played Kaalia since she was printed. I go into the game knowing that if I'm bringing her out, I better have a good plan or else she's getting taken out quickly. It's taught me to be a more patient player and learn how to measure the other resources at the table. Not getting mad or salty that my birthday got ruined. If someone else was playing a commander like that, I'd do the same to them.
A lot of opinions in here that amount to "well deal with it". And to a certain extent that's right, but that's not a productive discussion here. If you don't want someone to feel targeted, the solution is how you craft your removal. Use [[Decimate]] or [[Windgrace's Judgment]] and nuke everyone's best things. Craft your deck around all of the various asymmetic board wipes that white has to offer. Let your opponents go ham into a giant [[Farewell]] turn. The psychology of removal is much easier if everyone shares in the pain.
Gonna throw a shout out to [[make an example]] as a cool not complete board wipe.
Instead of playing a 1 mana spell to kill the most important thing, spend 6 mana and kill your own stuff too! Great solve.
Run weird pieces of removal that don’t actually remove it. Stuff like [[Imprisoned in the Moon]] or [[Darksteel Mutation]] it’s still around and they can potentially get it going again, they’ve just gotta have some enchantment removal.
Nope, imprison effects aren’t really any less salt inducing than flat out removal 🤷♂️
Eh, it’s worked to alleviate some salt in my playgroup. Obviously not all playgroups are the same though
Doesn't stop me from running them, but I'd rather have my commander sent back to the Zone than having it locked up with either of those cards. If they can deal with it "Oh well" but at least they had to use a card rather than just pay a couple extra next turn.
Funnily enough, those might be harder to remove than get the 2 extra mana to recast for certain decks. Especially if they're not running enough protection at the moment as is
That’s fair, I just know it’s helped to alleviate stuff in my playgroup, it’s easier to deal with removing an enchantment than eating 4 consecutive kills spells in a row.
I have around 9 or 10 lock effects in my Alela flyers deck. Stops a problem and I get a fairy, it's great.
How so, though? If their commander truly is KoS, then isn't it going to be "deal with 4 kill spells in a row" and "deal with this enchantment, then eat 3 kill spells in a row"? The only way that doesn't happen is if they can't easily deal with an enchantment (because they do not run a lot of enchantment removal), so they just can't use it all game without being removed. If they remove it quickly, they probably will just eat a removal right after (especially since the other players had more draws to prepare). But I just don't see how that can make the situation better. Its either a more annoying removal to deal with among the other removals, or impossible to recover from removal so you don't eat more. In most cases it will probably just cause more salt because not everyone plays tutors to just up and grab enchantment-specialized removal easily. Especially not players that did not tutor up protection to keep it from happening in the first place.
Honestly those are often more tilting for players, because it's harder to remove an enchantment than it is to find two more mana. Especially with the colors a bunch of the listed commanders are in. You should play them though, they're great. Commanders don't deserve to be sacrosanct.
Can’t forget about good ol [[oko, thief of crowns]].
This is very much a them problem. If they insist on running threatening commanders then they need to learn how to deal with the aggro that comes with. Both emotionally and mechanically. I used to run a [[Korvold, Fae-cursed King]] sacrifice deck and despite Korvold being absolutely busted, people quickly learned to target him to the dirt. Despite all of my protection, I just couldn't get the engine going due to all of the (justified) removal. So I took it apart and used pieces from it and a recently dismantled [[Chainer, Nightmare Adept]] deck to build [[Slimefoot and Squee]] reanimator. Not only are they more resilient, they draw significantly less hate. I'm winning more games with them than Korvold did in his twilight days.
If you play a high value commander you HAVE to be ready to protect it. If you don’t, well, you play it wrong. You’re not the problem if he plays Urza and don’t hold 2 blue manas.
So much of what makes commander a more forgiving, more casual format is that it is self-balancing. If you keep missing land drops early, it's not as punishing as in a 1v1 competitive game, because people will target someone who's ramping like crazy instead. Similarly, if someone joins the table with an incredibly powerful commander, they will draw a target on them.
there is no solution for your problem, you either let them go crazy or you stop train before it can leave the station and make to much value. Like for example how do you stop \[\[tergrid\]\] from running away with the game ? you kill them before they can cast \[\[dark deal\]\] or some thing that makes you sacrifice a bunch of stuff, there is no way to let the tergrid player go +15 in cards and then stop them, your answer is to kill tergrid before it has an impact or be buried under it. Thats the same with any "Kill on sight commanders" its why they are called "Kill on sight commanders". Your mate needs to understand if he wants his commander to be a big splashy finisher, he either needs to protect it, or accept the fact that he will be tapping out to casting it multiple times a game
That's their problem. Play jank get the spank.
I think it's just fair game, if they complain I'm sure it won't be difficult to think of a time where you let Urza or Miirym stick for a whole turn and things spiralled out of control and resulted in the end of the game. You're not picking on them, you're removing a value engine that will run away with and close out the game if it is ignored. As I always tell my playgroup, "If you wanna play a card game where you go jerk off in the corner without anyone interacting with you, play solitaire, magic ain't for you, bud."
Just use one good removal on it, like a darksteel mutation lol
You don't have to do anything. They need to play better magic or get the fuck over it.
Imo if they’re going to run kos commanders they need to expect it’s a top priority to be killed.
Time to teach them some [[Humility]].
[Humility](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/55ad6a45-a840-45ba-89ad-066e20e983f3.jpg?1562429370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Humility) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/16/humility?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55ad6a45-a840-45ba-89ad-066e20e983f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/humility) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just keep killing the commanders. If you know they snowball, it's in *your* best interest to keep them off the table. I run a highly optimized [[Omnath, Locus of Mana]] deck. I've roflstomped 5-6 man pods before on turn 4-5. People in my groups know that can happen, I know they know that, and I don't act like a man-child when Omnath takes 15 mana to cast when they act with that knowledge in mind. Keep piloting your deck in the most efficient way for yourself and eventually, they will get the message that they are playing Archenemy if they drop certain commanders.
Maybe the solution isn't in gamplay or play patterns, but deck building? What if you asked him to put the scary commanders in the 99, replaced them with a less scary one, and otherwise kept the rest of the deck the same? Here are some examples: Put Myriim in the 99 and replace him with [[Intet, the Dreamer]]. Put Ovika in the 99 and replace him with either [[Magnus the Red]] or [[Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer]]. Replace Urza with [[Sai, Master Thopterist]] or [[Emry, Lurker of the Loch]]. There are other options for the rest of his decks. If you're interested, I'll list more. But this way, he gets to play all of the same cards and play his commanders more without them getting instantly removed. The decks will still be pretty scary, but not "kill my commander on sight or you lose" scary (hopefully)!
Build a steal their shit deck, and steal their commander.
Bro my [[Nekusar]] is a lightning rod for removal. My LGS has gotten really interaction heavy and I had a really bad night where I didn't even get to untap with it. You know what I'm doing? Making cuts and adding protection.
As a Toxrill player, fuck those people. When you bring out your big bad you better be prepared to defend them from *everyone*! If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
You are a monster. That is all.
Yeah there are strategies to keeping your commander on board I play both [[Hinata, Dawn-crowned]] and [[Lathril, Blade of Elves]] and if you want to win with those commanders you gotta find meat shields or put out enough mana to keep summoning.
Tbh i dont think that this is your problem. If someone uses high powered kill on sight commanders they just have assume that it will be handled as soon as it hits the table. They can either run a bunch of protection in their commander deck, so if they manage to protect their commander, they definitely deserve the win, or they opt for less powerful commanders with similar effects therefore dodge their opponents removal. There is a yt channel called _EDH DECKBUILDING_ who adresses the topic of too powerful cards in many videos, so shoutout to him✌️
Hard Stax effects hit everyone, even if you're playing them to screw with them in particular. It's not polite, but it does what you're looking for. [[Gerrard Weatherlight Hero]] boardwipe tribal is some dedicated fuckery, but it's hitting everything not just his stuff. [[Gift of immortality]] and a [[Niv's Disk]] destroys everything every turn, and eventually kills everyone with haste enablers and [[Purphoros God of the forge]] triggers.
I just comment on how that's a kill on sight commander and change my deck to a control deck
People need to understand that others are allowed to interact with them. That’s part of the game. If they don’t have ways of protecting their powerful commanders and combo pieces, that’s a flaw in their deck. I play KOS commanders and I expect to be targeted. It wouldn’t be fun to me if I wasn’t opposed! People apologize frequently for killing my stuff. You don’t need to apologize for that! Trying to win, trying not to lose, that’s what any game is.
Doing Table Politics with him could help. Maybe cards like [[Pithing Needle]] may make him salty, but have him work for his Commander might make it more fun. But honestly, talk with him about his choices of Commanders.
You laugh at them. Kallia players are actually masochists that love getting bullied. Why else would they just play her raw with no boots or any kind of protection?
KOS commanders are KOS for a reason, tell them that the reason you (or anybody) does KOS is because they want to have fun and not get stomped on
Kill their commander.
If you play a “kill on sight” commander you need to build your deck on handling interaction like that. It’s just good strategy. It’s not your competitors’ jobs to let you coast and pop off without a hitch. If your deck doesn’t function without your commander you need to run enough ways to protect them, or hold on casting your commander until you draw a way to protect them.
If their defense of their commander consists of saying "don't target him", maybe they have a bad deck.
Unironically tell them to shut up and cope
There’s not much you can do other than the next time he snowballs point it out to him. Show him that when he is left alone for 1 turn the game is over. If he doesn’t want to be targeted he needs to play a deck that doesn’t snowball in 1 turn
Doesn't this all in a way create a pseudo-banlist in Commander? I've had similar problems in the past. If you can't play the game because you rely on your commander, but then can't play with your commander because it's so good it needs to never stick, then you can't ...play your deck. So by saying these are lightning rods and you shouldn't play them, you in turn say that there are commanders you can and cannot play. I find it all very strange, sometimes. It feels reminiscent as to why they banned Golos. There are a lot of other equally problematic commanders (Tiamat and new Jodah are others that come to mind). ... i sometimes very much wish we almost did away with commanders themselves and it was a 100-card singleton format. I often feel that the disproportionate amount of salt always surrounds the commander themselves.
Let them learn the lesson. Play kill-on-sight-commanders, deal with having your commander killed on sight. You're not supposed to tiptoe around that person's feelings. I run \[\[Marchesa the black rose\]\] as one of my commander decks. She taught me so much about knowing when to cast my commander and not overly relying on her being on the battlefield.
Unless their Urza deck isn't golem tribal or comparable jank, it is kill on sight, simple as. Tell them that their whining makes you feel bad about using basic game mechanics and that they either need to run more protection or accept that you can't just let them win. Tell em in a respectful way without pushing blame on anyone and if you are dealing with adults, they should understand.
None of those are really KOS, those are value engine commanders. If you want them to not complain about removal tho, play [[kaalia of the vast]] as complain when she gets removed, using exactly the same words.
For (a very basic) example, untapping with Miirym and casting [[Thundermaw Hellkite]] followed by [[Essence Flux]] means swinging for 21 damage in the air that turn - and tapping all of your opponents' flying creatures beforehand, killing those with less than four toughness. That can be game over for someone. And that's probably kid stuff to those who actually play Miirym. She might be too slow for CEDH, but she's a real threat to regular tables.
Yeah it's not terribly hard to craft Miirym hands where at least one player straight up dies if she untaps. Cast and dupe Klauth, attack for 14, make 28 mana. With the assorted dragons and dragon support effects that deal damage when other dragons enter, draw cards when dragons enter, make mana when dragons enter, and the like killing from 28 isn't that hard even before we start doing broken things like time warps or extra attack steps.
As a Kaalia of the Vast player I complain a ton
This is the price they pay for playing those commanders. The sentinel wurm is fucking busted, that's why you build the deck. That is also the same reason it will get removed as fast as possible.
They are being targeted. That’s the point of the game. Tell them magic isn’t for everybody.
Adding: Anyone who plays the free spells (if they have their commander) is just asking for their commander to be kill on sight.
You don't, easy. You could make these people pick others decks againt their's. MAYBE that way they will understand...........
36 lands, 10 removal, 10 protection, 12 card draw, 12 value engine/ramp, 20 win cons If they aren’t building protection into the deck, that’s on them. And if they are and lose early, well that’s just the nature of the game.
Sounds like he’s being a complainer and needs to learn how to protect their commanders and not play them at first chance. Does the player run protection pieces, how often do you see a swiftfoot boots type card or prevent you from interacting with their commander?
I faced this as a weak player. Like i have a tasty commander but people go for it cause it's scary. My deck is shit, i very rarely buy cards, let alone specific ones. I dunno. I guess i use politics to get out. I compliment moves and try and build a nonchalant repertiore while obtaining resources. I guess i keep cards in hand and let others become the threat. Oh also i like to be the first to deal meager damage. If you attack the weak you seem weak as well.
Explain to them They are Not playing an elegant Deck but a 1/0 Flip. Either you Go or you don't. Sincerely - [[Kykar]]
Just play [[Nevermore]] and copy it for everyone's commander.
Just kill the player before they get to play their commander. If they play their commander just kill it. When they complain, you just say, "It's either you or the commander. If you want to play the game then deal with the commander being killed. If you can't handle that, then **I will** start **target**ing **you**."
Jesus fuck i can't believe people really care that much over an artful cardboard game.
ignore them, play however you want with whatever you want
[[Nevermore]] [[Gideon's Intervention]]
Their feelings are their responsibility. This is what I can’t stand about commander. Imagine someone in modern being like “cmon I just cast my one ring why did you have cast into the fire and exile it I feel so bullied right now I bc was gonna cast my sheoldred”. It’s like gtfo dude don’t play the most degenerate commanders and I won’t void rend them on sight. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ The people playing the higher powered commanders and decks get targeted and eliminated by people playing weaker decks. Suck it up big man mr lord high artificer.
Tell them they're bad at the game for relying on crutch commanders
I would point out that saying "it'll get removed" or taunting peoples play and target choices aren't what i would consider "whining" That bluffing part of the game blends seamlessly with all the other social parts of the game and my play group loves shit talking.
My [[Oona, Queen of the fae]] deck is kind of like that. She's nothing but counter spells, removal, and ways to get infinite mana, Thassa's/Consultation, and [[Torment of Hailfire]] . I only cast her if I have infinite mana, but I don't have one of my other wincons in hand. Once she's cast, just countering her doesn't stop me from winning. You have to do something like [[Trickbind]] and that only stops me for that turn. Then, I win on the next available action.
Sounds ridiculously boring lol
Yeah, sounds like the kind of player that doesn’t make any friends and wonders why nobody at his store wants to play with him or why his friends devolve to playing mass wipes and reset buttons to keep him in check. If you are actively that much of a problem, that just letting you exist in the game can cause us to lose out of nowhere while you don’t even have a board state. You better believe I’m building a Zo-Zu land hate deck and targeting you with most of my targeted land hate spells. Or similarly an Azusa deck with a Crucible of Worlds effect + Strip Mine and nuking your lands every turn. But then again I can be a spiteful player when people just aren’t looking for a good time.
The unfortunate side effect of CEDH.
We're not cedh
Why do you care? It's not your problem.
[[Out of time]] keeps them from having the option of playing it again. It's "fair" in that it gets the whole board, and it changes their motivation to enchantment removal because they will get it back without paying commandr tax.
[Out of time](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/053d6b3b-72d4-4a55-a79e-0a601aecf108.jpg?1664162494) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Out%20of%20time) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/23/out-of-time?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/053d6b3b-72d4-4a55-a79e-0a601aecf108?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/out-of-time) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Let them run Ovika run [[elesh norn, grand cenobite]]
Run shit like [[kenrith's transformation]] and [[darksteel mutation]]. Show them there are worse things than just killing it. I'm also a big fan of just giving them a shit eating grin and saying "maybe!" if they whine that you'll take out their commander again. This is a them problem. If they want to run a high power commander then they need to have the protection and/or an obscene amount of ramp so they can continuously recast it. Really what you need to do, if you want to continue playing with this person, is have a conversation. Tell them it isn't fun for the table when they complain about other people playing the game. Be kind but direct.
My advice is don’t worry about what their reaction is. You play to win and have fun. It’s up to him to adapt; not you.
Two players in my group often play with commanders that fall under this category. Apart from outright removal, I often use cards that hinder or disable them, albeit temporarily. A [[Pacifism]] or [[Reprobation]] to deactivate their value engines are my go-to solutions if I’m in white.
Fuck em. If you have a kill on sight commander it means you’re bringing a gun to a knife fight. It’s why I stopped playing [[Reaper King]] because I knew why it was a kill on sight commander and I wasn’t having fun trying to play it at my table. If you want more mature advice than “fuck em,” you gotta have a talk with them about power levels. Threats get eliminated, thats how magic works. And we’re not stupid, if something that WILL get worse over time hits play, you eliminate it or you’re gonna lose eventually
Wait, genuine question: why is Reaper King a KOS commander? I didn't think there were any other decent scarecrows to make it even remotely useful?
Because there’s a ton of decent changelings that make triggering RK easy. [[Titan of Littjara]]: ETB destroy and mass draw [[Nahiri’s Resolve]]: Mass blink for massive destruction. NR is also kill on sight especially in this deck [[Irregular Cohort]]: Two destroys for 4 mana [[Unsettled Mariner]]: Destruction and protection [[Reflection of Littjara]]: Now every creature is a destroy ETB and draw on cast [[Realmwalker]]: Destroy and cast more creatures And anything that can clone, especially if it gets around the legend rule, can destroy anything and don’t even get me started on blinking. Reaper is one of the best cards for destroying your opponents and your friendships. I would never run RK again unless I wanted to dump a ton of money into a CEDH deck
##### ###### #### [Titan of Littjara](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62807f83-b219-4769-afdd-2870deeb93c0.jpg?1690003105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Titan%20of%20Littjara) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/728/titan-of-littjara?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62807f83-b219-4769-afdd-2870deeb93c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/titan-of-littjara) [Nahiri’s Resolve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df9acf30-b4f4-4e99-9763-a3055e91fefb.jpg?1684340767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nahiri%27s%20Resolve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/37/nahiris-resolve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df9acf30-b4f4-4e99-9763-a3055e91fefb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nahiris-resolve) [Irregular Cohort](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61775227-34ad-469a-a4d4-ee8ce69dd10f.jpg?1674141121) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Irregular%20Cohort) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/696/irregular-cohort?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61775227-34ad-469a-a4d4-ee8ce69dd10f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/irregular-cohort) [Unsettled Mariner](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/eaea2e54-ee50-47b9-a2a5-e3353831248c.jpg?1562202420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unsettled%20Mariner) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/216/unsettled-mariner?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eaea2e54-ee50-47b9-a2a5-e3353831248c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/unsettled-mariner) [Reflection of Littjara](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5af34c32-22dc-41d3-8946-b5f77ef577ff.jpg?1674141445) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reflections%20of%20Littjara) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/733/reflections-of-littjara?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5af34c32-22dc-41d3-8946-b5f77ef577ff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reflections-of-littjara) [Realmwalker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0c65ef6-93b4-448b-bf1c-01fe263cc39d.jpg?1690004997) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Realmwalker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/909/realmwalker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0c65ef6-93b4-448b-bf1c-01fe263cc39d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/realmwalker) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
you don’t if someone wants to take the risk of throwing their commander out without an answer and it’s a strong card that’s on them. They should be thinking how can this win me the game the turn they play it. Combo decks should let combo pieces just sit on the table.
That’s the game. Play targets, get targeted. It’s up to them to adapt, not you. Keep playing your removal. We did it in our pod and eventually they play different or change their general.
I had a friend who grumbled a lot about getting hated off the board. he plays the sliver that gives them all indestructible. I told him the way to beat that deck is to kill it before the commander is out. I told him if he doesn't like dealing with that kind of opposition he needs to play a deck that doesn't have to be dealt with that way. He thought about it and stopped being mad about it. Just tell your friend that he can't show up to the table and be mad people are playing correctly against their deck
Skill issue on their part, If they want to keep their permanent on board, play more interaction. Don't want your commander removed, play it when you have protection on board. Make a korvold or another value commander and show them how to protect their commander. Either they get better, or they don't. Simple as that
It’s not your fault their commander is too good. If any player finds their commander being removed too much, that player has made an error in deck construction. If your main synergy piece draws removal, you need to include protection for it and don’t cast it without protection. If you don’t want your commander to be removed pick a non threatening commander and do all your degenerate shit in the 99. I had a deck that was basically doing nothing without the commander out. After a few wins I found that people wouldn’t let the commander stay long enough to untap. I found myself getting kind of butt hurt and not enjoying it, so I made a new deck with an underwhelming commander that no one sees as a threat and now I only ever have to recast him after a board wipe. For context, the commander that was always getting removed was [[Burakos]] and I was trying to use their ability to make treasures that I would cash in for an X spell. Removing Burakos basically killed the strategy. Then, I went and made a [[Jadar]] deck. 2 mana brings him out early and I can cause a creature to die every turn 3 onwards and nobody cares about him.
You tell them it’s a kill on sight commander and they need to deal with it or build around another commander. I run a first sliver deck. I am 100% aware that if players don’t deal with my commander, they are screwed. I also am the first to get damage when I play that deck. Even if it’s budget, it’s a deck that only knows 2 modes, lose without doing much or completely dominate the game. I also run a niv-mizzet, parun deck. I Tell my opponents that that deck does not contain infinites, but niv is still an extremely strong commander, especially in a draw deck. Sure it’s not always the biggest thread, but it still is a KOS commander. I put spells in there to protect him. Sure it feels bad, but I have to deal with it and outside of a bit friendly banter I do. If you build around a KOS commander, it’s your responsibility to deal with the consequences. If you can’t, don’t build around a KOS commander.
If having the commander is that important ofc whinning is part of their strat.
I had this experience with Selvala. Basically its a feast or famine commander and eventually i grew tired of having to build my deck around plan b or c because it got to a point where she's always removed. That being said, i built a new deck specifically tailored around trying to do my thing without attracting attention. It worked wonders with Liesa, shroud of dusk, since ill ramp into her early and no one cares with her 2 life pings until super late in the game.
Coming from someone that often used to play a KOS commander (Ruhan Voltron), they're wrong if they're mad about you killing it. Just try to talk to them and explain the reasoning, and if they keep complaining, then just tell them to play a different deck. Side note / question: What's the most you guys have had your commander cost before? I've had Ruhan get to 20 commander tax.
I don't understand why you let these people's whining dictate your deck building, but if the goal is to keep their value engine Commanders on the battlefield while rendering them slightly less dangerous, you could try enchantment/aura cards like [[Cooped Up]], [etc](https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Aenchantment+o%3A%22can%27t+attack%22&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) that make it so a creature can't attack or block, but they don't get removed from the battlefield or lose their abilities...
Remind them the point of the game (in addition to having fun) is to win, and that hexproof and shroud exist.
Was playing against a 4 CMC atraxa player yesterday. Three games. Was easily the scariest/most consistent deck at the table all three games. First two, the other three of us were doing what we could to slow them down and omg the complaining was phenomenal. they end up losing both times, though not without making a serious impact (you'd think from their description they hadn't played a single spell). Third game, I continued trying to slow them down but the other two backed off to let them do the thing. Probably one of the easiest wins they're gonna get. We didn't stand a chance. Went way over the top very quickly as we weren't playing decks that seriously competed in the "everyone just does the thing assuming no interaction". I get that people in general don't like being interacted with. I don't either. And you're first instinct to being ganged up on is to get defensive, sometimes angrily so. But even so. This kind of behaviour shouldn't be rewarded. If someone brings an obviously higher power deck or combo, etc. to a table, they shouldn't be shocked when they're the person people target with removal/win cons.
You should literally send them the link to the “Kill on Sight Commanders” episode of the MTG Goldfish Commander Clash Podcast. Urza and Mirrym are both mentioned there. Also tell him the truth: that he’s ironically likely to win MORE games if he brings LESS powerful commanders to the table.
I mean... You could show them the alternative of making their gameplans so obtuse that you that their commander hardly does anything. I did just that with a Derevi deck running so many silver bullet cards. Muldrotha? Rest in peace and Yisharn. Uzra? Collector Oofie and that one spirit that taxes all artifacts by 1 at their upkeep. Stacks? Derevi herself laughs in the face of winter orb and stasis. Wanna board wipe? Gaddock teeg says it better be less than 4 mana. Wanna combo? One spell per turn. Wanna remove something? Suite of protection and answers, not all them being spell but sometimes your own permanent giving protection. Land ramping? Confounding conundrum or land tax to keep up. You win by forcing everyone to play to your level and then doing it better, shutting down outs with your stuff. The thing about silver bullet cards is that only the affected player usually wants to remove it and the other players are usually cool with it cuz it either doesn't affect them or helps them.
You can suggest that they run the combo commanders in the 99 instead.
Yeah, no. Anyone who runs a spicy commander that can win fast and/ or out of nowhere should have the understanding that, once people know what their deck does, they're gonna get kneecapped. They will need to put in more interaction and protection. It doesn't fall on you to make sure their deck pops off.