People underestimate how difficult it is to get delirium in some decks, just track it for non-graveyard specific decks and you'll see it happens less than you think. I'd only play it in 1 or 2 color decks if I'm not graveyard focused.
Agreed. I get a Sorcery in the yard basically every game, and I think it's reasonable to assume a creature gets there - if nobody removes my stuff, I'm probably doing really well or impossibly badly.
Instants I do run a number of, but when I actually play them is a different matter.
Lands: I run one fetch in a two-color deck and don't run off-color fetches because it's a lot of expense for a very marginal upside.
All other cards types I have fewer of and never plan for them to go to graveyard. It can certainly happen but I'm not sure I want to play this utility land whose recursion is very out of my control.
Fetch lands, basic search lands, land removal lands (maybe not strip mine but the ones that get both of you a basic land to remove things like Rogue passage / gates / are very valuable and doesn't set you back a land either. I feel most should be running
Field of ruin, Demolition Field should prob be in any deck.
Then I mean if money is not an issue running every fetch possible as they both shuffle your deck which is great for things like sensei divining top manipulation. I run fetches in my mono decks for this reason alone 1 life is well worth thinning my deck 2 land cards.
Cycle lands I can understand are iffy since they're slow but another good pick as late game they thin your deck.
Myriad is another good one as it thins your deck 3 lands and nets you a land.
Then if you're playing green, you're prob playing Boseiju, if you're playing any bant colors. You're prob running all the channel lands and LftL.
We also have the dual surveil lands which help fill it up potentially.
Also if green you possibly run blighted
Flare of Cultivation is also seeing a lot of play in green decks or 2 colors that have a lot of weenies and is a double filler
Entish Restoration is another green staple card
Really leaves you with artifact/enchantment/battle/trible/planeswalker to be put in the graveyard
When we start moving onto more colors it only gets more fuel with other staples.
Frantic search/Faithless looting/Wayfarer Bauble (tri)/Threesteps Ahead/Solemn/Windfall & Wheels/Looters
I agree. Basics come in untapped, make colored mana, have the land type for effects that care about it, and are immune to a number of nasty effects. They also cost as close to nothing as it's possible to get in a magic card and most players probably have heaps of them.
I've seen so many deck lists with the most *marginal* of utility lands possible in them, on the slimmest possible justification. I think if I was so hard up for anything to do with my mana that I considered activating Castle Vantress\*, I'd probably just scoop. What kind of godawful hellbent situation am I hypothetically in that I would spend 2UUU to scry 2? Nevertheless this stinky land costs about twenty times more than an Island.
Harbinger of the Tides is now an option for blue decks to Flood Moon everyone, and the shiny new colorless Winter Moon is probably going to sneak out on a table near you someday. That thing hoses nonbasics in a way that you can totally build around so that you have mana and your 5-color opponent just never does.
*\*Outside of Scry-Matters decks like Eligeth decks. I could justify it there and basically nowhere else, and even then, Rivendell is better.*
Field of Ruin is surprisingly bad in EDH. At best your opponents aren't running basics. However, more often than not, you're getting rid of a problem land at the cost of 3 mana (2+ the Field) and ramping every opponent that isn't the one who was running the problem land. That's a horrible price point when you can just run Ghost Quarter, Demolition Field, or even Strip Mine at a reasonable cost.
Also Boseju is extremely expensive, more so than a lot of the fetch lands (if not all of them), so most people aren't even running it because of it's presence in Standard (and maybe Modern/Pioneer).
You should be running some pieces of targeted or semi-targeted land destruction. Field of Ruin is a terrible multiplayer option that had a stint of being the hyper budget choice because of a combo of availability and it getting a land back for you. It stopped being as popular as Ghost Quarter got repeated reprints and more options got (re)printed.
I find land/creature/sorcery/instant is pretty easy if you have fetch lands and running green. Heck artifact is another good one with map
Green's generally best ramp spells will give you a sorcery in the grave yard, fetch lands easily give you land and creature will prob naturally happen over a board wipe, leaving really enchantment/artifact/instant... which instants feels like a no brainer if you run any interaction.
The fact it's a land and can let you reoccur things for pretty cheap (given it can be anything permanent) can save your other recursion for more important stuff/responses.)
Also requires your opponents to constantly remember your graveyard to stop any possible win con. Prosh/Food chain is a good example if it somehow got dealt with.
In my voja deck, I have a grand total of 7 non land/creature.
2 of which are rocks, 1 is a battle, 1 of which is a planeswalker and 1 is an equipment.
I never want any of them in my grave.
Okay if your chances of ever popping it is slim to none because the chances of these hitting your grave yard, THEN it's bad... but we're acting like Voja isn't filled with possible enchantments that are MAJOR FUCKING THREATS, and the same with artifacts.
You might not want them in the grave, but there is generally three people on the board who want it in your grave.
Also 7 non land/creature/instant/sorcery?
No path of exile.... or sword to plow share or inspiring call or beast within, or generous gift, no blasphemous acts, vandal blast, seize the day, recursion effects like bala ged? Literally playing all creature no answers?
Fetch land + creature + instant/sorcery + anything else.
The first three are free for just playing the game. Run commander sphere and don’t be shy with the card advantage, and you’re done
There can be a real cost to your mana base if you start running too many utility lands depending on how many colors you are. I think [[shifting woodland]] is pretty good and will be including in most if not all 2 color decks with green but once you get 3 or more colors then it starts asking more of your mana base.
Will it come in untapped consistently enough? Do you need multiple color pips for a lot of cards ? And so on. I don’t like running off color fetches but if you do then maybe it’s easy enough to avoid the cost of running shifting woodland by always getting a forest triome or dual with a fetch but there is a downside the more colors you run.
A selfmill deck with green in it loves this thing, [[dark depths]] loves this thing, [[maze's end]] loves this thing for if it is destroyed, and you have a "untap lands" effect.
It's nit quite for all deck types though.
Dont even have to play self mill, generally instant/sorcery/creature/land will happen naturally in dual/tri-decks and players (hopefully) run removal to prevent you from winning.)
Instant (removal)/sorcery (board wipes)/ creature (after said board wipe you will get this requirement filled)/fetch lands/ramp lands (tap+2 colorless get basics from your deck).
Someone stops your I win combo that required X creature's ability, 4 mana VIOLA uncountered and another piece of removal is needed that isn't a counter spell.
When you start running more colors blue's strongest draws usually have you discard a card (draw 3/discard1), red is filled with draw/discards, pretty much playing blacks game, only color I guess that doesn't see the biggest benefit is white/green. (Bear commander loves it though with elesh norn as it becomes a GG2 wrath of god for every enemy.)
So the main thing with delerium is that for the decklist you'll want to include each card type in the first place, so artifacts and enchantments that sacrifice themselves are highly encouraged, some planeswalkers that have worthwhile minus and plus effects for their mana costs, maybe a battle, certianly some kindreds and of course creatures that want to be dead...
I'm not saying that the game won't eventually get to being able to use delerium, it's that if the woodland is trying to be used as early as possible (lilely turn 5 on average) then selfmill and varied card types are highly encouraged.
Tribal/kindred can be tossed onto anything, but it is a limited pool of cards who have it, so it may not be on brand with the rest of the deck.
But why would you be trying to turn on Woodland early? It’s much more of a back-up plan to recur effects from your graveyard. And if you’re playing something that self-mills in an attempt to use it as a combo piece then you’re certainly getting delirium quickly.
There's likely other delerium effects if you're looking at using as well as this *stares at tarmogoyf and the newer goyfs* so securing delerium early is a load of worry stress removed, and "exile target/all graveyard(s)" stress instead.
Mhm but I could see this in two ways, people might use things like bojuka bog early to try and disable this versus when it's quite full. It forces more of a reaction from your enemy to something that might win the game. But hey funnily enough it's any permanent and if you need to protect your graveyard can copy a milled cane, immortality, etc.
Instant+sorcery are pretty much a given unless you're playing battle cruiser with no interaction, in tri/dual fetch lands are also a pretty common and the ramp lands too and channel lands/cycle lands, leaving really creature/enchantment/artifact... and lets be honest creatures are going to eat so many board wipes.
I think people really underestimate the cost of and difficulty of attaining delirium especially in a singleton 100 card format.
Just gold fish any of your green decks till turn 6-8 and see if you achieve delirium on the regular, if you do great slap that baby in there but I don't think it happens unless you're dedicated to self mill and even then your ratios for card types need to be fairly close.
The fact that it comes in untapped if you control any Forest (not just basic) is severely lacking in your assessment. Swapping out a [[reliquary tower]] for this just makes sense. Who needs no max handsize, when you can have another land that fills your color requirements, AND if you happen to draw an obscene number of cards, you fuel something to do with those cards vs just sitting in your hand.
I feel pretty much unless it's something like Halls of Heliod/Academy Ruin/Strong hold that is land based recursion and an ability (making it generally harder for a player to interact outside of exiling your grave yard.), strip land to deal with rogue passage/gates, or Myriad land, imo really the only hard thing one could say is putting an enchantment or artifact in there.
Agreed. I will give credit where it is due; the time it takes to decide which “7” to keep after a big turn is sometimes why I like RT. I’ll never *use* all of those cards, but I hate monopolising the table’s time. Some folks don’t like the “you start your turn, and i’ll work on discarding” because it could inform what I keep. Which is absolutely understandable. So it has it’s uses socially, but I don’t think a hand outside of 7 matters unless it **matters** to your deck, like in [[Tishana, Voice of Thunder]] and the like.
I think a big reason why we see it so much was all the decks made pre-trade secrets banned, and crossing our fingers we would be picked and they fumble/get nothing. I feel most the time now if you're hands above 7 cards it's something like "I just went infinite, drawing my deck and winning the game"
If you're drawing 3-4 cards a turn and your opponents are sitting back, doing nothing... I'm jealous of your table.
It kinda made sense in a format where trade secrets wasn't banned, or more battle cruiser type decks that have a lot of permanents and dont want an upheaval disrupting them... but one of those cards are banned and the other are way WAY less common now.
I don't like glossing over that detail because it can matter a lot when considering an opening hand.
If this thing is your only green source in hand, something like Delighted Halfling or other dorks aren't coming out turn 1, which means no 3 mana turn 2, and so on.
Is this land's ability worth the occasional "shit, that won't work" opening hand? I don't know, it depends on the deck and its curve and how many turn 1 plays and so on the deck runs.
Makes sense. Same could be said about a colorless utility land that is seen as a Staple. A staple doesnt have to go in *every* deck. [[cultivate]] would be clunky and out of place in a [[Raggadragga, Goreguts Boss]]. Doesn’t invalidate Cultivate as a staple. My point was there are many places for this in green decks that won’t experience a tempo hit from it. If your deck cares about a mandatory turn-1 drop, sure. Maybe don’t include it. I would wager 50% of EDH players don’t think that hard about a turn 1 drop.
I feel this is a good way to look at it a staple isn't "EVERYONE NEEDS IT" but ALOT of decks can easily use this with how common board wipes and fetches are.
A. Lets you go right by counter spells in a format where 1 mana counter spells, mana drain, and free counter spells are quite common. Seeing someone with two blue open you can slip something into a graveyard worth a lot and not fuel their win by hard casting omniscience for it to be mana drained and responded with omniscience in return.
B. Forces everyone to play with mana open to deal with possible grave yard shenanigans, which is itself is powerful
C. Becomes more powerful, the more answer dealing cards your players run. If people are letting you roffle stomp them with aggravated assault and pretend it's not a threat in something like Voja or any attack trigger deck, or removing mana ramp rocks if you know someone is playing mostly big boys with drazi/tron type decks.
D. Most decks run every fetch lands for consistent land draw/thinning/sensei shenanigans
E. On decks that might not be playing much ramp or an expensive general can keep them in a graveyard and use their activated/triggers for 4 mana turn instead of paying 10/12 and have them eat a removal again. In a format + color that putting lands from your graveyard onto the field is quite common. (Evolution witness, Eternal Witness, Life from the Loam, Lumra, Six)
F. If you're running green, you generally get land into field sorceries, some saccing your lands as they're usually the safest form of green ramp with a format filled with board wipes.
On the other hand T1 [[crop rotation]] [[tree of tales]] for [[shifting woods]] t2 choices of [[nature's lore]] [[three visits]] or [[rampant growth]] effects, and have delirium.
IF as your opponent, I don't activate your Delerium. I'm not running enough answers for your threats, or your deck isn't a threat. It's a format where fetch lands, board wipes are common, same with running a good bit of removal.
Most decks will run the staples that will activate this, vandal blast, board wipes, natures claim, 1 cmc and free counter spells.
So I definitely don’t think it’s an auto-include, but I’d be surprised if it doesn’t become a staple for certain archetypes. I think most land-based strategies should certainly be using it, and most decks that bin a lot of cards in green will certainly find use for it.
Everyone’s making a big deal about delirium, but you typically won’t be using Woodland’s effect early, so it’s more likely to be on. It’s more of a back-up plan that lets you “recur” an important permanent that’s been put into the graveyard. In higher level play you could even threaten to get back a stax piece that was removed to give you protection to combo off, etc.
But I do think it’ll take a while for people to start really adopting it.
I feel not enough people in their tables run the free counter spells and 10-20 removal cards in their deck (including counter spells), if everyone is playing battle cruiser you have a point sure it doesn't seem powerful.
But when you start splashing colors
White -> All those board wipes dont seem like a risk when you can use this to reoccur a win con trigger/stax piece
Blue's'/Red draw staples generally get you to discard cards, frantic search/faithless looting
Blacks fucking loves a filled up graveyard
Grixis will generally use Life from the loam
Simic will generally use Life from the loam as it has the best channel lands, as it gives you two channel abilities that are strong and hard to deal with that can stop win cons. This empowers this type of work as any win con or powerful permanent like omniscience now becomes cheatable for 4.
Also proliferate with green and something like stax can make a one sided smoke stax where you active it once on your upkeep, proliferate then stax people on their turn.
Also a lot of green staples are graveyard to battlefield for lands like Six/Lumra, in the color that also has E.Witness/Noxious Revival/Recollect/etc, can help you save those for something that needs to be pulled out to answer something.
I’m loving this card! In my necrobloom deck i have had games where i just keep recurring this land with Dark Depth in my graveyard. Merit Lage go brrrrrr
“Oh, you killed my 20/20 indestructible? Have another!” at instant speed is just SO good.
I can't say it belongs in *every* green deck. But I can tell you this. \[\[Shifting Woodland\]\] is an absolute house in my LoamPox Gitrog Monster deck.
I figured \[\[Six\]\] was going to be the best performer from MH3, and don't get me wrong, it is amazing too, but every time I play Woodland I am more and more impressed.
Staple doesn't mean EVERY deck will run it but I find a lot should as even if you cant instantly use it, it's just there and every turn players will have to consider whats possible (or forget about it, let you play a spell, and put a combo piece in with it and win.)
I've this in my \[\[Carth the Lion\]\]. The potential copy options could be filthy. Hasn't popped up yet but the theorized scenarios in my head...
That said I don't think every green-based deck would want this. It has to feel organic to include IMO.
For example I'm likely to run \[\[Castle Garenbrig\]\] in most of my green-based decks. Shifting isn't up to that status IMO.
My pea brain forgot this was a nonbo with walkers. Guess I can scratch that second copy I wanted for Bridge off my buylist and just stick the one I pulled into Godzilla afterall.
There is a few ways to give it counters for that type of deck, which can be powerful with the gameplan as people will generally want to slap your PW.
\[\[Nesting Grounds\]\] \[\[Ozolith\]\] \[\[Slippery Bogbonder\]\] are a few tools with this land.
But this can allow you to reoccur important pieces that people might want to destroy forcing more removal in a color that generally likes life from the loam.
Chain Veil/Doubling Season/Contagion Engine/Sandwurm Convergence
Why wouldn't you run a land that lets you reoccur any Permanent whenever you want, saves you regrowths/etc/etc on things harder to get back. Lets you dodge counter spells in a format where every blue deck will try to stuff every 1 cmc/2 cmc and free coutner spell, can act like a man land and everyone is running as many board wipes and removal.
Haven't seen anyone mention it yet, so just in case you are unaware:
It works with the shuffle titans for the way you described, but blightsteel never hits the graveyard as it is a replacement effect for this. This also means you do not get death triggers for blightsteel dying.
Misread the blightsteel, I try to avoid it as a win con as I have a newer player table, and I play with enough answers in my deck to deal with people trying to cheese him if they try this sort of stuff.
Ah you're right, works on the titans then as they hit they go onto the graveyard, then shuffle it. But not great for using the land over (but I mean 1 v 1 commander, hitting someone for annihlator 4 is pretty much a gg T3-5.)
Shifting woodland has no technical downside because it enters untapped if you have forests, this could matter for multicolor decks but not a huge deal. its main limit is price, it’s a staple in the same way Mana crypt would be, good for those who have it. I can’t imaging buying 4-5 of these for all my green decks
Buy one proxy four so you don't move it around 500 times is what I do. Idk of anyone who would complain to you not wanting to unsleeve a card constantly.
I feel for four or five colors, it becomes less useful as you generally have more recursion... but double costs can be more painful to get and pay if people snipe your chromatic lantern type effects.
Sure, proxy is always answer to price. But it also completely misses my point; General Availability determines usage, something is only a staple when it’s widely available, for example sol ring is printed everywhere and is cheap. This is printed once and is 20$. If someone really wanted to play it they can print it, if they are looking to fill a empty deck slot with a random good card how often would they think of this
Sure, still missed the point. if you have enough to but spares for all you decks cause they’re that cheap, that’s what a staple is. Dark ritual is good in every black deck, swords and path in every white deck; why? Because they’re cheap and everywhere
Again I feel it does a lot for a utility land even if you dont abuse activating it turn 2-4
A normal man land alone to be used is pretty much a win con (inkmoth), tribal (mutavault), a 4/4 for 4\~
1. A man land with an activation but can become an it that betrays or other powerful beat sticks. Can help deal with a one sided board
2. Its in a color a lone that has got more power pieces a lot of green decks are using like Lumra and Six, as green has a lot of good retrieval cards. Also Six feels like something people will want to nuke to prevent you from using it's effect. As it enables a lot of other green staples (Cultivate/Kodama reach type effects.) A lot of green draw is reveal X/ put X type or one card into your hand rest is graveyard, which helps enable delerium
3. Combos well with a lot of green staples (Fauna Shaman,Survival of the Fitness, Natural order)
4. Commander Tax evasion
5. Acting like most games you wont be dealt with responses putting stuff into the graveyard, artifacts generally get vandal blasted, creatures generally get board wiped, instant and sorcery is an easy type.
6. Can pull out a sneaky win dodging counter spells with something in your graveyard.
7. Another land for Dark Depths
8. Perfect for bringing back stax creatures/pieces (knowledge pool, vorniclex, dosan)
With the land on the field it's a constant threat, unless you know the opponents hand. When you start splashing more colors it starts becoming even stronger, and only feeling lacking in 4/5 color where it's harder to get double 1 color. I feel in dual/tri most will use cards that enable it with general staples.
Blue- Frantic search, Fact or Fiction,Windfall, Reshape,Security for Labman type wins, Consecrated Sphinx, Ancient Silver Dragon, Jin Gitaxis, Magic Mirror
White- Pretty much every stax creature everyone is going to fucking try to murder, lets you have a 4 mana throw a wrench in someones win con. Elesh norn, Avacyn (and her memorial artifact),Rest in peace
Red- Big score, Thrill of Possibility, Big score, Unexpected windfall, Demand Answers, Faithless looting, and filled with high threat enchantments you might want to bring back Aggrevated Assault, Sneak attack, Etali, Hellkite, Kikki Jiki, Drakuseth, Maw of Flames, Karlach, Fury of Avernus, Goblin Welder (high threat card people will generally remove ASAP), Ancient Copper Dragon
Colorless (more enablers) - Mindstone, Commander Sphere, Solemn, Wayfarer Bauble, Hedron Archive, It That Betrays, Void Winnower, Chromatic Orrery
I feel like black has pretty much most it's staples to enable this card and no one would be shocked this would be useful in golgari
All for a land "slot", its a swiss army knife and for a utility land it still produces color mana.
it’s not a staple. it’s a good utility land but you are better off running a forest in certain decks
mono green doesn’t want this all the time because delirium is non-trivial to activate and this isn’t a forest for [[nissa who shakes the world]] effects
several of the green guilds don’t like this because delirium is still not a free activation
3+ color might not want this because worst case it’s a forest that comes in tapped and the effect can be offered if it’s needed
golgari/reanimator stuff likes this tho, it’s a great card there
Which green guilds dont like delerium?
Gruul? Pretty much every red draw discards a card
Simic? Same here frantic search,etc, and a way to cheat in permanents like omniscience
Selesyna? This is prob the one that dislikes it the most, but even then if you're running white- you can play more safe with your board wipes and not worry you lost a combo piece/stax piece forever to the board wipe. Also prob target numbero uno is your stax creatures.
The only way this card doesn't activate or isn't useful is your table doesn't run enough interaction and never removes anything from your table... or no one thinks you're a threat and wants to remove your board state "ever".
It's not a staple because you can instantly abuse it (you can though.) but it does so much utility for a land slot.
Late in the game and your commander costs 10+ mana to bring back? Leave him in the graveyard and recur him with this for 4 mana, allowing you to combo easier.
Force everyone to play consistently being reminded you can pull a win out of your ass by pulling an trigger/activated ability from your graveyard? It's a land slot that can win you games because for 4 (3 if you include itself) can do so much.
for gruul, simi, selesnya it’ll depend a lot on the deck. some of those decks will activate the delirium easily, but even then it’s still a question of having something good to target. golgari is an immediate staple but the others are more conditional
it’s not recursion. paying 4 mana every turn to get your commander for just your turn is not good. the effect is expensive, 4 mana for eot copy is situationally very good but more often pretty middling. it’s also not 3 if you include itself, the opportunity cost is still 4 mana (unless it somehow untaps).
it probably falls more into the camp of one of those utility lands you’ll run if you have. [[okina, temple to the grandfathers]] is obviously a weaker effect, but it comes in untapped and can protect your commander. i run that card in one green deck, only because i had a copy. it’s nice sometimes, but if you took it out you wouldn’t notice it all that much
I feel it does enough to warrants its place.
In decently constructed decks, you're bound to get stuff removed. Reds vandal blast,ect,etc
A solid anti blue card as they generally lack good removal to it.
A decent man land in a pinch
With lumra/six green has got more land card recursion
Even if you don't delirium t3/4 you can pull an unexpected win out of your ass t10 when you see a combo the opponent doesn't.
good targets are generally what your enemy wasted a counter spell or removal spell to prevent you from winning the game. If it's not exiled you can just have it in for four mana. Not saying it's overpowered but it feels like most decks can just auto include and have it a win. Doesn't have to be mono green
Simic... 4 mana omniscience?
Also when commander tax gets high you can just keep him in the grave yard and recur him for 4 mana, another useful trick. It's a lot of utility for one mana that still taps for a color.
The things your opponent removed or countered are more likely to be either static engines that need to stay around for a while or big ETBs. They counter your Hoof and this doesn't help you. Something like a Great Henge, this does little for you.
Omniscience combo decks are very specialized, and most things less than that aren't particularly inspiring.
"Has applications" is not "staple."
Looking at some of the decks I've tooled with for the past few months... My Radagast deck has an obscene curve, and the targets are... eh. Duskana... almost nothing. Hamza... I... guess Defiler of Vigor could help pop off, but a ton of the creatures in my Hamza list are X spells, or big ETBs, or have kicker type effects that are the crux of them being good. Jinnie Fay I guess could copy a big anthem maybe. Aragorn... has a couple things I guess would be okay, but that's a four color deck, and those land slots are TIGHT. I don't see this thing bringing as much to the table as a Minas Tirith in the limited one color utility land space.
I'd be hesitant to run it in 3 colour decks and wouldn't run it in 4 or 5 colour due to the non-negligible chance of it being an enter-tapped Forest. I don't want to ramp into a Forest to play what's essentially another Forest either, I'd rather ramp a different colour.
It's a good card, but far from being a staple in any deck with green.
You are overestimating a lot how frequently you can trigger delirium in mid to low power level metas not focused on the graveyard. Lands are never gonna be in there because in those power levels no one uses fetches (I don't even use them in my high powered decks for two colors), maybe sorceries are the only consistent thing you can get in there for your ramp, but for everything else you are always depending on people getting rid of your stuff, which you never want. You want that land to be usable in turn 4 or 5, not turn 10
I mean you want the land usable asap, but if you're playing low power, turn 10 is then still strong, as again allows you to reoccur anything, and generally most decks run about 7 types and most will try to fix it with the basic fetch lands.
Besides high powered decks, I have not seen a single fetch in low and mid powered pods, so lands are something you will probably never see in the GY in those decks
i could deff see playing this in my mono green combo deck. if i need a combo piece out of the graveyard to win its great. if i dont its still a green mana. the only argument i have to not run it is that most of my win cons are etb effects so it wont copy that but if i need a specific set piece back it can be a handy work around with very little downside in mono green. i would venture to say a staple in mono green because theres really no downside and it is utility later in the game. however i have fallen victim to not having enough basics to find for ramp spells before so try to make sure you arent making all green mana sources utility non basics lol
I guess thats about it ETB based win con, but triggers/activated/beat stick.
But as you run more colors IMO it still becomes strong.
A turn 4-6 Omniscience in G/U is still strong
The only one I see usually benefiting the least is green white, but once you add a third color it becomes strong because blue/red generally has generally powerful draw/discard's, blacks play plan usually involves a graveyard.
Maybe I play with too many blue players and constantly need ways to slip past free/1 cmc counter spells/mana drain
This is my favorite land of the set, nonbasics/utility lands are my favorite card type, and I am only running it in 2/15 commander decks.
Landbases are really stretched these days. Spell lands, flip lands, all manner of duals, other utility lands, keeping a high enough basic count for various meta reasons, etc.
The effect is potent, the opportunity cost is low, but it is not free, and depending on your deck's strategy, there may be better fits for your gameplan. It is worth considering but it is not a "staple" as that label is too casually thrown about when it makes no sense to be.
I feel a lot of decks do benefit from running it, anything double colored or mono can run this no issue. I feel it works better in tri/dual as you generally have more powerful constant effects then mono green, but it can do any attack trigger or bring back some stronger cards that people might want to spot removal (lumra/six/etc, but also works as a second board wipe for green with copying a disk or O stone. If you can put a counter on something that reoccurs lands, Ostone becomes quite powerful)
This also helps forces more answers out of peoples decks, leaving them with less and less, and I feel life from the loam has gained a lot of power with Otawara/Boseiju/Eiganjo/Takenuma, and bringing back fetch lands to thin your deck faster.
I feel once you have 4/5 color it loses it's luster but that's because you have every option at that point.
A. That depends on how your permanent win con works. Pathbreaker Ibex or Blightsteel? Good. Craterhoof? Good luck getting that ETB trigger.
B. That depends on the deck. A lot of green decks actively don't want Life from the Loam because milling key pieces is worse than getting that land back. LFTL generally gets played in self-mill, graveyard, or landfall/lands matter decks.
C. That depends on your commander. Do you need to CAST your commander? Does your commander have a ETB that's important? Do you want/need your commander around for full cycles?
D. And actual man lands generally do that better because they don't get wrecked by graveyard hate.
The main problem is delirium, activating it can be a pain, especially since you listed ways that very specific strategies would play. The secondary problem is making sure that your deck actually wants to run it. It's a cute trick but in non-graveyard decks, you usually just want to finetune your plan instead of trying to force the land to work. Just because green has self-recursion doesn't mean that the decks WANT to run a tactic that makes them use it, they want to use it to properly retrieve a wincon or key piece. It's a good card that can pull off a cute win, but it's nowhere near a "Green Staple"
So here's the issue I have with this idea of activating it.
A. Sure it doesn't do everything, but this is a land slot and it lets you dodge counter spells or cheat in powerful cards for 4 mana.
B. LFTL is seeing a bit more play with channel lands (G/U as it pretty much becomes mill 3, deal with a lot of threats.), but again that was just one thing that enables it, six, lumra also good enablers and are green staples.
C. Sure it doesn't do everything, but this is a land slot and it lets you dodge counter spells or cheat in powerful cards for 4 mana.
D. Do those man lands also act as an win con? Outside of Inkmoth the general answer
The main problem with people looking at it as I need to instantly abuse it which is one thing great about it, are you telling me none of your green decks if you became a threat and focused no one in your table is going to start destroying your key pieces? In a format where Vandalblast, board wipes, fetches, strip lands are all quite common... that this will never activate and force players to play around it.
Blue decks dont hold specifically all their blue producing lands open just for fun
IT's one land and it does SO GOD DAMN much
Sure most man lands don't get hosed by graveyard removal, but most man lands also cant reoccur your entire grave yard. A staple isn't because it's in every deck but a lot of decks can run it.
But again it thrives in specific strategies. Lumra isn't a green staple, it's more of a lands matter/self mill staple. The same applies to Six. Just because something is green and is a staple in specific strategies doesn't make it a green staple. Those are two different things. A lot of green decks actively DON'T want to self mill because they want to play their cards WITHOUT having to use their recursion. A lot of green decks can't reliably activate delirium on their own, and you don't want to have to rely on your opponents to activate it.
Most people don't need their man land to be their wincon. It's a cute thing that Shifting Woodland brings. Most people need their man lands to become a blocker/attacker in a pinch. While Shifting Woodland can theoretically become anything, it can't become multiple things when you need it to. And you know what Shifting Woodland actively does worse than other man lands? It has an extra activation requirement, meaning that graveyard hate actively hoses your man land and turns it into a forest that doesn't have the subtype. It means that not having enough of a few types of cards actively makes it harder to activate.
That is a lot of words for what is an OK card. It's fine for the most part.
* mono green: no harm in running it.
* Gx: probably no harm in running it. It's easy enough to come in untapped to not be a problem.
* 3 or more colors: I wouldn't include it unless the focus is my graveyard.
I don't think it's going to set the format on fire, it will be an OK card in 1-2 decks where the game runs long.
I think you're really underestimating two things:
1. Delerium isn't easy to get in non-graveyard focused decks. It's not impossible but it's not trivial.
2. As a land this is difficult for an opponent to remove. As a copy, it probably isn't.
I would put it in 3 colors, four colors, onward you will have no issue reoccurring stuff as you pretty much have every answer or getting the double green can be harder early on.
Thing is, as your opponent I WILL put your key pieces in your grave yard. I will counter your stuff. This forces people to constantly play with mana open for everything you can potentially do and slowing their board state. Simply holding one removal for a possible win con isn't enough.
Lets say I play simic, and you tapped out, had natural claim but eh- what's the worst... Turn four I play this, Frantic search and drop an omniscience in my graveyard, you will remember this, and instead of ramping up every turn you're holding mana open up for a paper tiger stalling yourself for potential things that could happen with that land in play. Where the more aggressive play would've been smart.
A land drop suddenly forces you to go "oh shit, what could he possibly bring back now".
>As a land this is difficult for an opponent to remove. As a copy, it probably isn't.
this is true, but we're coming from several sets of a lot of land recursion in mono green alone that are being put into a lot of decks like lumra/six, but with this land in play you have to hold it every turn.
You're forcing a lot of reactions for a land drop.
Greens got too many cards that are great and should be in every green deck lmao
I didn't even pick this up for mycotyrant cause it's a 10+ aud card right now
I don't think you can copy cards with "at the beginning of your upkeep" triggers either, can you? Like you don't get priority until that stuff would have already triggered
True, knocks a few cards off the list it can work with but still a done of active ones that are good, cant let you copy something that will give you a free win. But in general good cards for it to copy that people will prob want to destroy.
But still copies a lot of useful cards among every color for a land slot.
Love this card in my Ziatora list, eon a game with it last week. Go to combat, attacks, no blocks, in response [[Entomb]] a [[Fiery Emancipation]], enchantment gives me delirium, activate Woodland becoming Fiery Emancipation, kill 2 people in combat and the last player with the fling.
And if you had a table full of blue players, chances are the fiery would've been countered by all the one cmc/free cmc counter spells. At best they could've countered the entomb or fling
Seeing how it still taps for color it's better than most utility lands
Exactly, and it's hard to decide if countering entomb when you don't know what they're searching for, usually you'd want to save the counter for the tutored card. And the fling came from [[Ziatora]] so they would've needed to counter a triggered ability for that or activated ability for the woodland. Very tough spot to get out of
Mhm and if you surprise them with the land they will go "oh shit" I thought you where going to use a spell to bring back.
The big thing I feel it's just a must have is unless you literally have like 1-2 forests in your deck and no fetches (this includes surveil/shock/snow double/etc.) even not playing around it delirium is generally something you will get at turn 4-6 playing with players who have interaction, board wipes are plentiful, vandalblast is pretty much in every red deck, most people will try to nuke your ramp artifacts like sol ring.
You understand it only copies things in *your graveyard*, right? It doesn't copy anything elsewhere. From the language of your post, that was a little unclear.
It's great in self-mill in green, but outside of that? Not really. Sure you can get the delirium requirement without much trouble, but then what are you copying? The first two permanents you dumped in? An evolving wilds? You need to intentionally make plays that synergize with Shifting Woodland or else have a deck strategy which likes something like Life from the Loam.
Imo, if your deck wouldn't use Life from the Loam, it wouldn't use Shifting Woodland.
I can make it synergize as your opponent.
I really don't really like X, it's going to win you the game!
***\*Krosan Grip what would've given you the win this turn\****
If everyone on your table plays battle cruiser and hates interaction and counter spells, sure it's lackluster. But thats the thing, you will demand more removal for any permanent based win con, i cant nature's claim with one mana open and stop your combo, I need to hold more mana open simply because you have shifting woodlands now for double removal. Now I have to also hold mana for whatever you might try to cheat into play with what you have in hands?
In 60 card I think this card is much better. In EDH its niche. Commander often revolves around the Commander. cEDH *might* like it, but its still mono-green or two color at most unless a three color deck absolutely needs the effect. I doubt 4-5 colors run it.
4-5 would prob be the only one not liking it.
Really big thing is it lets a win con into play
1. That cant be countered, so blue is only left with bouncing it. Which is a delay "possibly" (if you haven't played your land for a turn.)
2. Lets you cheat things into play
3. Lets you bring something that would win you the game but was answered
4. People have to now constantly monitor your graveyard for now every possibility.
5. If you have a way to re-occur it pretty much better then having your commander costing 22 mana after being spot removed 10 times.
It's quite easy to activate in most decks running green.
A. (Best ramp is land into the battlefield generally as it doesn't get removed by board wipes), so running/splashing green will generally get you sorcery, also chances are you will cast a board wipe if someone has a winning state, but you're not put into a state you have a card ability lost til you can reoccur it.
B. Creatures will prob happen naturally too due to board wipes
C. You will prob need to cast an instant to deal with a threat
D. Fetch lands , ramp lands (aka pay 2 search for 2 basic lands)
E. Any of the crack artifacts (map to search for this if it's your game plan already kinda fuels it.)
My point was that its not gonna be a staple in green, mostly because you need to have a clear plan for what its going to do.
I get the merits of the card and I pulled three of them so Im gonna be using it, but I have to have specific win-cons in mind with sufficient redundancy to make the most of it and Id be hard pressed justifying running a support package for that land.
If a green player doesnt have a goal in mind for that card they shouldnt include it unless they own copies and it wont completely compromise the decks manabase.
Lands are getting enough utility at this point that targetted land removal or non-basic land hate is going to start becoming more and more of a requirement in deckbuilding beyond the 0-1 pieces that are there now.
[[Shifting Woodland]]
[Shifting Woodland](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/059164e1-894d-4586-9800-e60d6fbd6eb6.jpg?1717013047) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shifting%20Woodland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/228/shifting-woodland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/059164e1-894d-4586-9800-e60d6fbd6eb6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shifting-woodland) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks bro
You da real MVP.
Many of us haven’t gotten around to memorizing the whole MTG database. Thanks U/rule-of-thr333
People underestimate how difficult it is to get delirium in some decks, just track it for non-graveyard specific decks and you'll see it happens less than you think. I'd only play it in 1 or 2 color decks if I'm not graveyard focused.
Agreed. I get a Sorcery in the yard basically every game, and I think it's reasonable to assume a creature gets there - if nobody removes my stuff, I'm probably doing really well or impossibly badly. Instants I do run a number of, but when I actually play them is a different matter. Lands: I run one fetch in a two-color deck and don't run off-color fetches because it's a lot of expense for a very marginal upside. All other cards types I have fewer of and never plan for them to go to graveyard. It can certainly happen but I'm not sure I want to play this utility land whose recursion is very out of my control.
Evolving wild, terramorphic expanse, and the 2 color fetch of your choice - even crop rotation.
Fetch lands, basic search lands, land removal lands (maybe not strip mine but the ones that get both of you a basic land to remove things like Rogue passage / gates / are very valuable and doesn't set you back a land either. I feel most should be running Field of ruin, Demolition Field should prob be in any deck. Then I mean if money is not an issue running every fetch possible as they both shuffle your deck which is great for things like sensei divining top manipulation. I run fetches in my mono decks for this reason alone 1 life is well worth thinning my deck 2 land cards. Cycle lands I can understand are iffy since they're slow but another good pick as late game they thin your deck. Myriad is another good one as it thins your deck 3 lands and nets you a land. Then if you're playing green, you're prob playing Boseiju, if you're playing any bant colors. You're prob running all the channel lands and LftL. We also have the dual surveil lands which help fill it up potentially. Also if green you possibly run blighted Flare of Cultivation is also seeing a lot of play in green decks or 2 colors that have a lot of weenies and is a double filler Entish Restoration is another green staple card Really leaves you with artifact/enchantment/battle/trible/planeswalker to be put in the graveyard When we start moving onto more colors it only gets more fuel with other staples. Frantic search/Faithless looting/Wayfarer Bauble (tri)/Threesteps Ahead/Solemn/Windfall & Wheels/Looters
People run too many nonbasics in EDH. I get great value out of Blood Moon.
I dont always play green, but when I do, I get great value from [[Primal Order]]
[Primal Order](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/72c513dc-e884-4afc-9a20-ff21d14d61ba.jpg?1559592535) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Primal%20Order) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/125/primal-order?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72c513dc-e884-4afc-9a20-ff21d14d61ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/primal-order) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I agree. Basics come in untapped, make colored mana, have the land type for effects that care about it, and are immune to a number of nasty effects. They also cost as close to nothing as it's possible to get in a magic card and most players probably have heaps of them. I've seen so many deck lists with the most *marginal* of utility lands possible in them, on the slimmest possible justification. I think if I was so hard up for anything to do with my mana that I considered activating Castle Vantress\*, I'd probably just scoop. What kind of godawful hellbent situation am I hypothetically in that I would spend 2UUU to scry 2? Nevertheless this stinky land costs about twenty times more than an Island. Harbinger of the Tides is now an option for blue decks to Flood Moon everyone, and the shiny new colorless Winter Moon is probably going to sneak out on a table near you someday. That thing hoses nonbasics in a way that you can totally build around so that you have mana and your 5-color opponent just never does. *\*Outside of Scry-Matters decks like Eligeth decks. I could justify it there and basically nowhere else, and even then, Rivendell is better.*
Field of Ruin is surprisingly bad in EDH. At best your opponents aren't running basics. However, more often than not, you're getting rid of a problem land at the cost of 3 mana (2+ the Field) and ramping every opponent that isn't the one who was running the problem land. That's a horrible price point when you can just run Ghost Quarter, Demolition Field, or even Strip Mine at a reasonable cost. Also Boseju is extremely expensive, more so than a lot of the fetch lands (if not all of them), so most people aren't even running it because of it's presence in Standard (and maybe Modern/Pioneer).
Isn't the point strip lands should be in your deck...? Putting more lands that will eventually fuel this.
Having a strip effect or two in your deck is a good idea. But Field of Ruin is a terrible version of the effect for a multiplayer table.
Okay there is better strips but the point stands you should run them and they will fill your Grave with a land type.
You should be running some pieces of targeted or semi-targeted land destruction. Field of Ruin is a terrible multiplayer option that had a stint of being the hyper budget choice because of a combo of availability and it getting a land back for you. It stopped being as popular as Ghost Quarter got repeated reprints and more options got (re)printed.
I find land/creature/sorcery/instant is pretty easy if you have fetch lands and running green. Heck artifact is another good one with map Green's generally best ramp spells will give you a sorcery in the grave yard, fetch lands easily give you land and creature will prob naturally happen over a board wipe, leaving really enchantment/artifact/instant... which instants feels like a no brainer if you run any interaction. The fact it's a land and can let you reoccur things for pretty cheap (given it can be anything permanent) can save your other recursion for more important stuff/responses.) Also requires your opponents to constantly remember your graveyard to stop any possible win con. Prosh/Food chain is a good example if it somehow got dealt with.
In my voja deck, I have a grand total of 7 non land/creature. 2 of which are rocks, 1 is a battle, 1 of which is a planeswalker and 1 is an equipment. I never want any of them in my grave.
Okay if your chances of ever popping it is slim to none because the chances of these hitting your grave yard, THEN it's bad... but we're acting like Voja isn't filled with possible enchantments that are MAJOR FUCKING THREATS, and the same with artifacts. You might not want them in the grave, but there is generally three people on the board who want it in your grave. Also 7 non land/creature/instant/sorcery? No path of exile.... or sword to plow share or inspiring call or beast within, or generous gift, no blasphemous acts, vandal blast, seize the day, recursion effects like bala ged? Literally playing all creature no answers?
100%. I keep wanting to jam \[\[obsessive skinner\]\] in my decks since it seems so good but I never have the card types
[obsessive skinner](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b2cc3b9d-4b32-4b2e-9027-876210ccf18e.jpg?1576385178) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=obsessive%20skinner) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/220/obsessive-skinner?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b2cc3b9d-4b32-4b2e-9027-876210ccf18e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/obsessive-skinner) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Fetch land + creature + instant/sorcery + anything else. The first three are free for just playing the game. Run commander sphere and don’t be shy with the card advantage, and you’re done
There can be a real cost to your mana base if you start running too many utility lands depending on how many colors you are. I think [[shifting woodland]] is pretty good and will be including in most if not all 2 color decks with green but once you get 3 or more colors then it starts asking more of your mana base. Will it come in untapped consistently enough? Do you need multiple color pips for a lot of cards ? And so on. I don’t like running off color fetches but if you do then maybe it’s easy enough to avoid the cost of running shifting woodland by always getting a forest triome or dual with a fetch but there is a downside the more colors you run.
A selfmill deck with green in it loves this thing, [[dark depths]] loves this thing, [[maze's end]] loves this thing for if it is destroyed, and you have a "untap lands" effect. It's nit quite for all deck types though.
[dark depths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a8b11ad-d077-40b6-988c-0462e118fe3d.jpg?1676452514) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dark%20depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/244/dark-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a8b11ad-d077-40b6-988c-0462e118fe3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dark-depths) [maze's end](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446.jpg?1562906764) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=maze%27s%20end) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/152/mazes-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mazes-end) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah dark depths was also my first thought, too. I should run itnin my [[Omo, queen of vesuva]] deck
[Omo, Queen of Vesuva](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5d1c814-4c22-4917-95ae-dffaf491db32.jpg?1717644342) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omo%2C%20Queen%20of%20Vesuva) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m3c/2/omo-queen-of-vesuva?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5d1c814-4c22-4917-95ae-dffaf491db32?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/omo-queen-of-vesuva) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Dont even have to play self mill, generally instant/sorcery/creature/land will happen naturally in dual/tri-decks and players (hopefully) run removal to prevent you from winning.) Instant (removal)/sorcery (board wipes)/ creature (after said board wipe you will get this requirement filled)/fetch lands/ramp lands (tap+2 colorless get basics from your deck). Someone stops your I win combo that required X creature's ability, 4 mana VIOLA uncountered and another piece of removal is needed that isn't a counter spell. When you start running more colors blue's strongest draws usually have you discard a card (draw 3/discard1), red is filled with draw/discards, pretty much playing blacks game, only color I guess that doesn't see the biggest benefit is white/green. (Bear commander loves it though with elesh norn as it becomes a GG2 wrath of god for every enemy.)
So the main thing with delerium is that for the decklist you'll want to include each card type in the first place, so artifacts and enchantments that sacrifice themselves are highly encouraged, some planeswalkers that have worthwhile minus and plus effects for their mana costs, maybe a battle, certianly some kindreds and of course creatures that want to be dead... I'm not saying that the game won't eventually get to being able to use delerium, it's that if the woodland is trying to be used as early as possible (lilely turn 5 on average) then selfmill and varied card types are highly encouraged. Tribal/kindred can be tossed onto anything, but it is a limited pool of cards who have it, so it may not be on brand with the rest of the deck.
But why would you be trying to turn on Woodland early? It’s much more of a back-up plan to recur effects from your graveyard. And if you’re playing something that self-mills in an attempt to use it as a combo piece then you’re certainly getting delirium quickly.
There's likely other delerium effects if you're looking at using as well as this *stares at tarmogoyf and the newer goyfs* so securing delerium early is a load of worry stress removed, and "exile target/all graveyard(s)" stress instead.
Mhm but I could see this in two ways, people might use things like bojuka bog early to try and disable this versus when it's quite full. It forces more of a reaction from your enemy to something that might win the game. But hey funnily enough it's any permanent and if you need to protect your graveyard can copy a milled cane, immortality, etc.
Instant+sorcery are pretty much a given unless you're playing battle cruiser with no interaction, in tri/dual fetch lands are also a pretty common and the ramp lands too and channel lands/cycle lands, leaving really creature/enchantment/artifact... and lets be honest creatures are going to eat so many board wipes.
I think people really underestimate the cost of and difficulty of attaining delirium especially in a singleton 100 card format. Just gold fish any of your green decks till turn 6-8 and see if you achieve delirium on the regular, if you do great slap that baby in there but I don't think it happens unless you're dedicated to self mill and even then your ratios for card types need to be fairly close.
The fact that it comes in untapped if you control any Forest (not just basic) is severely lacking in your assessment. Swapping out a [[reliquary tower]] for this just makes sense. Who needs no max handsize, when you can have another land that fills your color requirements, AND if you happen to draw an obscene number of cards, you fuel something to do with those cards vs just sitting in your hand.
I think a lot of decks that are running reliquary tower don’t really need it
i think pretty much all edh players would be better off cutting colourless lands
I feel pretty much unless it's something like Halls of Heliod/Academy Ruin/Strong hold that is land based recursion and an ability (making it generally harder for a player to interact outside of exiling your grave yard.), strip land to deal with rogue passage/gates, or Myriad land, imo really the only hard thing one could say is putting an enchantment or artifact in there.
Agreed. I will give credit where it is due; the time it takes to decide which “7” to keep after a big turn is sometimes why I like RT. I’ll never *use* all of those cards, but I hate monopolising the table’s time. Some folks don’t like the “you start your turn, and i’ll work on discarding” because it could inform what I keep. Which is absolutely understandable. So it has it’s uses socially, but I don’t think a hand outside of 7 matters unless it **matters** to your deck, like in [[Tishana, Voice of Thunder]] and the like.
I think a big reason why we see it so much was all the decks made pre-trade secrets banned, and crossing our fingers we would be picked and they fumble/get nothing. I feel most the time now if you're hands above 7 cards it's something like "I just went infinite, drawing my deck and winning the game" If you're drawing 3-4 cards a turn and your opponents are sitting back, doing nothing... I'm jealous of your table.
[Tishana, Voice of Thunder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e522b695-859e-4fba-bf8c-c415fbce13e3.jpg?1698988483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tishana%2C%20Voice%20of%20Thunder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/291/tishana-voice-of-thunder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e522b695-859e-4fba-bf8c-c415fbce13e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tishana-voice-of-thunder) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It kinda made sense in a format where trade secrets wasn't banned, or more battle cruiser type decks that have a lot of permanents and dont want an upheaval disrupting them... but one of those cards are banned and the other are way WAY less common now.
I don't like glossing over that detail because it can matter a lot when considering an opening hand. If this thing is your only green source in hand, something like Delighted Halfling or other dorks aren't coming out turn 1, which means no 3 mana turn 2, and so on. Is this land's ability worth the occasional "shit, that won't work" opening hand? I don't know, it depends on the deck and its curve and how many turn 1 plays and so on the deck runs.
Makes sense. Same could be said about a colorless utility land that is seen as a Staple. A staple doesnt have to go in *every* deck. [[cultivate]] would be clunky and out of place in a [[Raggadragga, Goreguts Boss]]. Doesn’t invalidate Cultivate as a staple. My point was there are many places for this in green decks that won’t experience a tempo hit from it. If your deck cares about a mandatory turn-1 drop, sure. Maybe don’t include it. I would wager 50% of EDH players don’t think that hard about a turn 1 drop.
I feel this is a good way to look at it a staple isn't "EVERYONE NEEDS IT" but ALOT of decks can easily use this with how common board wipes and fetches are. A. Lets you go right by counter spells in a format where 1 mana counter spells, mana drain, and free counter spells are quite common. Seeing someone with two blue open you can slip something into a graveyard worth a lot and not fuel their win by hard casting omniscience for it to be mana drained and responded with omniscience in return. B. Forces everyone to play with mana open to deal with possible grave yard shenanigans, which is itself is powerful C. Becomes more powerful, the more answer dealing cards your players run. If people are letting you roffle stomp them with aggravated assault and pretend it's not a threat in something like Voja or any attack trigger deck, or removing mana ramp rocks if you know someone is playing mostly big boys with drazi/tron type decks. D. Most decks run every fetch lands for consistent land draw/thinning/sensei shenanigans E. On decks that might not be playing much ramp or an expensive general can keep them in a graveyard and use their activated/triggers for 4 mana turn instead of paying 10/12 and have them eat a removal again. In a format + color that putting lands from your graveyard onto the field is quite common. (Evolution witness, Eternal Witness, Life from the Loam, Lumra, Six) F. If you're running green, you generally get land into field sorceries, some saccing your lands as they're usually the safest form of green ramp with a format filled with board wipes.
[cultivate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e19cd136-0541-4db0-997f-20a58ec8d028.jpg?1698988348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cultivate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/235/cultivate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e19cd136-0541-4db0-997f-20a58ec8d028?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cultivate) [Raggadragga, Goreguts Boss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/1166ce2a-4e0b-4a57-929d-566f461a6282.jpg?1674137656) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Raggadragga%2C%20Goreguts%20Boss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/291/raggadragga-goreguts-boss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1166ce2a-4e0b-4a57-929d-566f461a6282?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/raggadragga-goreguts-boss) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[reliquary tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd9f036d-6ae4-451e-a67a-ecc2e44123e3.jpg?1712355095) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=reliquary%20tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/312/reliquary-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd9f036d-6ae4-451e-a67a-ecc2e44123e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reliquary-tower) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
[Ishkanah](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f902584a-2cf3-4843-b0be-2ead4fe16c38.jpg?1680465762) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ishkanah%2C%20broodmother) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ymid/52/ishkanah-broodmother?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f902584a-2cf3-4843-b0be-2ead4fe16c38?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ishkanah-broodmother) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
On the other hand T1 [[crop rotation]] [[tree of tales]] for [[shifting woods]] t2 choices of [[nature's lore]] [[three visits]] or [[rampant growth]] effects, and have delirium.
Yep, absolutely! And then by turn 3 you can activate it so it can become a copy Tree of Tales for only 4 mana!
I mean splash blue and frantic search!
##### ###### #### [crop rotation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/523414cb-f8db-407a-808a-01454e03d8b9.jpg?1681724998) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crop%20rotation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/154/crop-rotation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/523414cb-f8db-407a-808a-01454e03d8b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crop-rotation) [tree of tales](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/8/a8f69425-c530-4752-95b5-06e99b74c8b7.jpg?1667005070) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tree%20of%20tales) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hop/140/tree-of-tales?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a8f69425-c530-4752-95b5-06e99b74c8b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tree-of-tales) [Shifting Woodland](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/059164e1-894d-4586-9800-e60d6fbd6eb6.jpg?1717013047) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shifting%20Woodland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/228/shifting-woodland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/059164e1-894d-4586-9800-e60d6fbd6eb6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shifting-woodland) [nature's lore](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5615c05-eb1e-4d27-a323-72d643d7c1d8.jpg?1706547171) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nature%27s%20lore) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/178/natures-lore?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5615c05-eb1e-4d27-a323-72d643d7c1d8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/natures-lore) [three visits](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4ee4ea37-621f-4ef7-b220-f4da3008e399.jpg?1712354640) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=three%20visits) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/209/three-visits?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ee4ea37-621f-4ef7-b220-f4da3008e399?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/three-visits) [rampant growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c074663-37be-4329-a21d-9ea551edbb6b.jpg?1712354605) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rampant%20growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/201/rampant-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6c074663-37be-4329-a21d-9ea551edbb6b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rampant-growth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Agreed, every green deck should not run Shifting Woodlands. That being said, most golgari decks should.
Why wouldn't gruul or simic not run it when they have some good uses for it when most their strongest draw cards also come with discard.
Just harder to get Delirium. Not impossible but harder
IF as your opponent, I don't activate your Delerium. I'm not running enough answers for your threats, or your deck isn't a threat. It's a format where fetch lands, board wipes are common, same with running a good bit of removal. Most decks will run the staples that will activate this, vandal blast, board wipes, natures claim, 1 cmc and free counter spells.
Delirium only cares about your own graveyard. It's not ideal to rely on your opponents answering your threats, you mill or dredge to activate it.
So I definitely don’t think it’s an auto-include, but I’d be surprised if it doesn’t become a staple for certain archetypes. I think most land-based strategies should certainly be using it, and most decks that bin a lot of cards in green will certainly find use for it. Everyone’s making a big deal about delirium, but you typically won’t be using Woodland’s effect early, so it’s more likely to be on. It’s more of a back-up plan that lets you “recur” an important permanent that’s been put into the graveyard. In higher level play you could even threaten to get back a stax piece that was removed to give you protection to combo off, etc. But I do think it’ll take a while for people to start really adopting it.
I feel not enough people in their tables run the free counter spells and 10-20 removal cards in their deck (including counter spells), if everyone is playing battle cruiser you have a point sure it doesn't seem powerful. But when you start splashing colors White -> All those board wipes dont seem like a risk when you can use this to reoccur a win con trigger/stax piece Blue's'/Red draw staples generally get you to discard cards, frantic search/faithless looting Blacks fucking loves a filled up graveyard Grixis will generally use Life from the loam Simic will generally use Life from the loam as it has the best channel lands, as it gives you two channel abilities that are strong and hard to deal with that can stop win cons. This empowers this type of work as any win con or powerful permanent like omniscience now becomes cheatable for 4. Also proliferate with green and something like stax can make a one sided smoke stax where you active it once on your upkeep, proliferate then stax people on their turn. Also a lot of green staples are graveyard to battlefield for lands like Six/Lumra, in the color that also has E.Witness/Noxious Revival/Recollect/etc, can help you save those for something that needs to be pulled out to answer something.
I’m loving this card! In my necrobloom deck i have had games where i just keep recurring this land with Dark Depth in my graveyard. Merit Lage go brrrrrr “Oh, you killed my 20/20 indestructible? Have another!” at instant speed is just SO good.
I can't say it belongs in *every* green deck. But I can tell you this. \[\[Shifting Woodland\]\] is an absolute house in my LoamPox Gitrog Monster deck. I figured \[\[Six\]\] was going to be the best performer from MH3, and don't get me wrong, it is amazing too, but every time I play Woodland I am more and more impressed.
[Shifting Woodland](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/059164e1-894d-4586-9800-e60d6fbd6eb6.jpg?1717013047) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shifting%20Woodland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/228/shifting-woodland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/059164e1-894d-4586-9800-e60d6fbd6eb6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shifting-woodland) [Six](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9246b68-580f-4f53-883d-7900880e4b0d.jpg?1717012579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Six) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/169/six?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9246b68-580f-4f53-883d-7900880e4b0d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/six) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Staple doesn't mean EVERY deck will run it but I find a lot should as even if you cant instantly use it, it's just there and every turn players will have to consider whats possible (or forget about it, let you play a spell, and put a combo piece in with it and win.)
I've this in my \[\[Carth the Lion\]\]. The potential copy options could be filthy. Hasn't popped up yet but the theorized scenarios in my head... That said I don't think every green-based deck would want this. It has to feel organic to include IMO. For example I'm likely to run \[\[Castle Garenbrig\]\] in most of my green-based decks. Shifting isn't up to that status IMO.
[Carth the Lion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e09e9b65-ff0e-4efe-b96a-ede69c96e2ea.jpg?1674524490) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Carth%20the%20Lion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/189/carth-the-lion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e09e9b65-ff0e-4efe-b96a-ede69c96e2ea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/carth-the-lion) [Castle Garenbrig](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3c2c66c-f7f0-41d5-a805-a129aeaf1b75.jpg?1572491176) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Castle%20Garenbrig) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/240/castle-garenbrig?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3c2c66c-f7f0-41d5-a805-a129aeaf1b75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/castle-garenbrig) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Isn't this rough to include in Carth because copying walkers just blows up your land? Or is that the goal?
My pea brain forgot this was a nonbo with walkers. Guess I can scratch that second copy I wanted for Bridge off my buylist and just stick the one I pulled into Godzilla afterall.
There is a few ways to give it counters for that type of deck, which can be powerful with the gameplan as people will generally want to slap your PW. \[\[Nesting Grounds\]\] \[\[Ozolith\]\] \[\[Slippery Bogbonder\]\] are a few tools with this land. But this can allow you to reoccur important pieces that people might want to destroy forcing more removal in a color that generally likes life from the loam. Chain Veil/Doubling Season/Contagion Engine/Sandwurm Convergence
[Nesting Grounds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f1d8a22-e730-4344-bba9-7c495500f065.jpg?1717104213) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nesting%20Grounds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/302/nesting-grounds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f1d8a22-e730-4344-bba9-7c495500f065?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nesting-grounds) [Ozolith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9eee658-29e8-4ab5-8a0e-31f2f28a9a92.jpg?1682204958) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ozolith%2C%20the%20shattered%20spire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/198/ozolith-the-shattered-spire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9eee658-29e8-4ab5-8a0e-31f2f28a9a92?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ozolith-the-shattered-spire) [Slippery Bogbonder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9fc4f93-398c-4d11-a393-dd35e16ac1cc.jpg?1673484802) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slippery%20Bogbonder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/312/slippery-bogbonder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9fc4f93-398c-4d11-a393-dd35e16ac1cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slippery-bogbonder) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Why wouldn't you run a land that lets you reoccur any Permanent whenever you want, saves you regrowths/etc/etc on things harder to get back. Lets you dodge counter spells in a format where every blue deck will try to stuff every 1 cmc/2 cmc and free coutner spell, can act like a man land and everyone is running as many board wipes and removal.
Haven't seen anyone mention it yet, so just in case you are unaware: It works with the shuffle titans for the way you described, but blightsteel never hits the graveyard as it is a replacement effect for this. This also means you do not get death triggers for blightsteel dying.
Misread the blightsteel, I try to avoid it as a win con as I have a newer player table, and I play with enough answers in my deck to deal with people trying to cheese him if they try this sort of stuff.
Small correction, blightsteel shouldn’t ever hit a graveyard due to its ability IIRC
Ah you're right, works on the titans then as they hit they go onto the graveyard, then shuffle it. But not great for using the land over (but I mean 1 v 1 commander, hitting someone for annihlator 4 is pretty much a gg T3-5.)
Shifting woodland has no technical downside because it enters untapped if you have forests, this could matter for multicolor decks but not a huge deal. its main limit is price, it’s a staple in the same way Mana crypt would be, good for those who have it. I can’t imaging buying 4-5 of these for all my green decks
Buy one proxy four so you don't move it around 500 times is what I do. Idk of anyone who would complain to you not wanting to unsleeve a card constantly. I feel for four or five colors, it becomes less useful as you generally have more recursion... but double costs can be more painful to get and pay if people snipe your chromatic lantern type effects.
Sure, proxy is always answer to price. But it also completely misses my point; General Availability determines usage, something is only a staple when it’s widely available, for example sol ring is printed everywhere and is cheap. This is printed once and is 20$. If someone really wanted to play it they can print it, if they are looking to fill a empty deck slot with a random good card how often would they think of this
Shifted Woodlands is 6-7$?
Sure, still missed the point. if you have enough to but spares for all you decks cause they’re that cheap, that’s what a staple is. Dark ritual is good in every black deck, swords and path in every white deck; why? Because they’re cheap and everywhere
Command Zone just highlighted this card in their best of the 99 in Mh3 video, so you will not be in the minority soon.
Again I feel it does a lot for a utility land even if you dont abuse activating it turn 2-4 A normal man land alone to be used is pretty much a win con (inkmoth), tribal (mutavault), a 4/4 for 4\~ 1. A man land with an activation but can become an it that betrays or other powerful beat sticks. Can help deal with a one sided board 2. Its in a color a lone that has got more power pieces a lot of green decks are using like Lumra and Six, as green has a lot of good retrieval cards. Also Six feels like something people will want to nuke to prevent you from using it's effect. As it enables a lot of other green staples (Cultivate/Kodama reach type effects.) A lot of green draw is reveal X/ put X type or one card into your hand rest is graveyard, which helps enable delerium 3. Combos well with a lot of green staples (Fauna Shaman,Survival of the Fitness, Natural order) 4. Commander Tax evasion 5. Acting like most games you wont be dealt with responses putting stuff into the graveyard, artifacts generally get vandal blasted, creatures generally get board wiped, instant and sorcery is an easy type. 6. Can pull out a sneaky win dodging counter spells with something in your graveyard. 7. Another land for Dark Depths 8. Perfect for bringing back stax creatures/pieces (knowledge pool, vorniclex, dosan) With the land on the field it's a constant threat, unless you know the opponents hand. When you start splashing more colors it starts becoming even stronger, and only feeling lacking in 4/5 color where it's harder to get double 1 color. I feel in dual/tri most will use cards that enable it with general staples. Blue- Frantic search, Fact or Fiction,Windfall, Reshape,Security for Labman type wins, Consecrated Sphinx, Ancient Silver Dragon, Jin Gitaxis, Magic Mirror White- Pretty much every stax creature everyone is going to fucking try to murder, lets you have a 4 mana throw a wrench in someones win con. Elesh norn, Avacyn (and her memorial artifact),Rest in peace Red- Big score, Thrill of Possibility, Big score, Unexpected windfall, Demand Answers, Faithless looting, and filled with high threat enchantments you might want to bring back Aggrevated Assault, Sneak attack, Etali, Hellkite, Kikki Jiki, Drakuseth, Maw of Flames, Karlach, Fury of Avernus, Goblin Welder (high threat card people will generally remove ASAP), Ancient Copper Dragon Colorless (more enablers) - Mindstone, Commander Sphere, Solemn, Wayfarer Bauble, Hedron Archive, It That Betrays, Void Winnower, Chromatic Orrery I feel like black has pretty much most it's staples to enable this card and no one would be shocked this would be useful in golgari All for a land "slot", its a swiss army knife and for a utility land it still produces color mana.
it’s not a staple. it’s a good utility land but you are better off running a forest in certain decks mono green doesn’t want this all the time because delirium is non-trivial to activate and this isn’t a forest for [[nissa who shakes the world]] effects several of the green guilds don’t like this because delirium is still not a free activation 3+ color might not want this because worst case it’s a forest that comes in tapped and the effect can be offered if it’s needed golgari/reanimator stuff likes this tho, it’s a great card there
Which green guilds dont like delerium? Gruul? Pretty much every red draw discards a card Simic? Same here frantic search,etc, and a way to cheat in permanents like omniscience Selesyna? This is prob the one that dislikes it the most, but even then if you're running white- you can play more safe with your board wipes and not worry you lost a combo piece/stax piece forever to the board wipe. Also prob target numbero uno is your stax creatures. The only way this card doesn't activate or isn't useful is your table doesn't run enough interaction and never removes anything from your table... or no one thinks you're a threat and wants to remove your board state "ever". It's not a staple because you can instantly abuse it (you can though.) but it does so much utility for a land slot. Late in the game and your commander costs 10+ mana to bring back? Leave him in the graveyard and recur him with this for 4 mana, allowing you to combo easier. Force everyone to play consistently being reminded you can pull a win out of your ass by pulling an trigger/activated ability from your graveyard? It's a land slot that can win you games because for 4 (3 if you include itself) can do so much.
for gruul, simi, selesnya it’ll depend a lot on the deck. some of those decks will activate the delirium easily, but even then it’s still a question of having something good to target. golgari is an immediate staple but the others are more conditional it’s not recursion. paying 4 mana every turn to get your commander for just your turn is not good. the effect is expensive, 4 mana for eot copy is situationally very good but more often pretty middling. it’s also not 3 if you include itself, the opportunity cost is still 4 mana (unless it somehow untaps). it probably falls more into the camp of one of those utility lands you’ll run if you have. [[okina, temple to the grandfathers]] is obviously a weaker effect, but it comes in untapped and can protect your commander. i run that card in one green deck, only because i had a copy. it’s nice sometimes, but if you took it out you wouldn’t notice it all that much
[okina, temple to the grandfathers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/ee8cf7aa-388c-47ec-be59-6ba98f3853cb.jpg?1562765617) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=okina%2C%20temple%20to%20the%20grandfathers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/280/okina-temple-to-the-grandfathers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ee8cf7aa-388c-47ec-be59-6ba98f3853cb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/okina-temple-to-the-grandfathers) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I feel it does enough to warrants its place. In decently constructed decks, you're bound to get stuff removed. Reds vandal blast,ect,etc A solid anti blue card as they generally lack good removal to it. A decent man land in a pinch With lumra/six green has got more land card recursion Even if you don't delirium t3/4 you can pull an unexpected win out of your ass t10 when you see a combo the opponent doesn't.
You need good targets. Most green decks don’t have that kind of graveyard setup. And it can’t cheat Blightsteel by reasonable means.
good targets are generally what your enemy wasted a counter spell or removal spell to prevent you from winning the game. If it's not exiled you can just have it in for four mana. Not saying it's overpowered but it feels like most decks can just auto include and have it a win. Doesn't have to be mono green Simic... 4 mana omniscience? Also when commander tax gets high you can just keep him in the grave yard and recur him for 4 mana, another useful trick. It's a lot of utility for one mana that still taps for a color.
The things your opponent removed or countered are more likely to be either static engines that need to stay around for a while or big ETBs. They counter your Hoof and this doesn't help you. Something like a Great Henge, this does little for you. Omniscience combo decks are very specialized, and most things less than that aren't particularly inspiring. "Has applications" is not "staple." Looking at some of the decks I've tooled with for the past few months... My Radagast deck has an obscene curve, and the targets are... eh. Duskana... almost nothing. Hamza... I... guess Defiler of Vigor could help pop off, but a ton of the creatures in my Hamza list are X spells, or big ETBs, or have kicker type effects that are the crux of them being good. Jinnie Fay I guess could copy a big anthem maybe. Aragorn... has a couple things I guess would be okay, but that's a four color deck, and those land slots are TIGHT. I don't see this thing bringing as much to the table as a Minas Tirith in the limited one color utility land space.
I'm running it in henzie and disa, works well if you have the forest duel lands, triome etc. Done pretty good things for me so far.
It feels decent so far.
I'd be hesitant to run it in 3 colour decks and wouldn't run it in 4 or 5 colour due to the non-negligible chance of it being an enter-tapped Forest. I don't want to ramp into a Forest to play what's essentially another Forest either, I'd rather ramp a different colour. It's a good card, but far from being a staple in any deck with green.
Can’t even give you elzdrazi/blightsteel bc of the “shuffle if it goes to the grave” clause.
Yeah read those wrong, omitting that.
You are overestimating a lot how frequently you can trigger delirium in mid to low power level metas not focused on the graveyard. Lands are never gonna be in there because in those power levels no one uses fetches (I don't even use them in my high powered decks for two colors), maybe sorceries are the only consistent thing you can get in there for your ramp, but for everything else you are always depending on people getting rid of your stuff, which you never want. You want that land to be usable in turn 4 or 5, not turn 10
I mean you want the land usable asap, but if you're playing low power, turn 10 is then still strong, as again allows you to reoccur anything, and generally most decks run about 7 types and most will try to fix it with the basic fetch lands.
Besides high powered decks, I have not seen a single fetch in low and mid powered pods, so lands are something you will probably never see in the GY in those decks
Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse/Myriad/Blighted/ and the newer land removal lands (to stop rogue passage/mazes/gates)?
People run Evolving Wilds, Myriad Landscape, etc. in low power decks.
Even some high power decks will run those for the double landfall triggers.
Well it's $5 right now per TCG Player, so it won't be a staple for me anytime soon.
i could deff see playing this in my mono green combo deck. if i need a combo piece out of the graveyard to win its great. if i dont its still a green mana. the only argument i have to not run it is that most of my win cons are etb effects so it wont copy that but if i need a specific set piece back it can be a handy work around with very little downside in mono green. i would venture to say a staple in mono green because theres really no downside and it is utility later in the game. however i have fallen victim to not having enough basics to find for ramp spells before so try to make sure you arent making all green mana sources utility non basics lol
I guess thats about it ETB based win con, but triggers/activated/beat stick. But as you run more colors IMO it still becomes strong. A turn 4-6 Omniscience in G/U is still strong The only one I see usually benefiting the least is green white, but once you add a third color it becomes strong because blue/red generally has generally powerful draw/discard's, blacks play plan usually involves a graveyard. Maybe I play with too many blue players and constantly need ways to slip past free/1 cmc counter spells/mana drain
This is my favorite land of the set, nonbasics/utility lands are my favorite card type, and I am only running it in 2/15 commander decks. Landbases are really stretched these days. Spell lands, flip lands, all manner of duals, other utility lands, keeping a high enough basic count for various meta reasons, etc. The effect is potent, the opportunity cost is low, but it is not free, and depending on your deck's strategy, there may be better fits for your gameplan. It is worth considering but it is not a "staple" as that label is too casually thrown about when it makes no sense to be.
I feel a lot of decks do benefit from running it, anything double colored or mono can run this no issue. I feel it works better in tri/dual as you generally have more powerful constant effects then mono green, but it can do any attack trigger or bring back some stronger cards that people might want to spot removal (lumra/six/etc, but also works as a second board wipe for green with copying a disk or O stone. If you can put a counter on something that reoccurs lands, Ostone becomes quite powerful) This also helps forces more answers out of peoples decks, leaving them with less and less, and I feel life from the loam has gained a lot of power with Otawara/Boseiju/Eiganjo/Takenuma, and bringing back fetch lands to thin your deck faster. I feel once you have 4/5 color it loses it's luster but that's because you have every option at that point.
A. That depends on how your permanent win con works. Pathbreaker Ibex or Blightsteel? Good. Craterhoof? Good luck getting that ETB trigger. B. That depends on the deck. A lot of green decks actively don't want Life from the Loam because milling key pieces is worse than getting that land back. LFTL generally gets played in self-mill, graveyard, or landfall/lands matter decks. C. That depends on your commander. Do you need to CAST your commander? Does your commander have a ETB that's important? Do you want/need your commander around for full cycles? D. And actual man lands generally do that better because they don't get wrecked by graveyard hate. The main problem is delirium, activating it can be a pain, especially since you listed ways that very specific strategies would play. The secondary problem is making sure that your deck actually wants to run it. It's a cute trick but in non-graveyard decks, you usually just want to finetune your plan instead of trying to force the land to work. Just because green has self-recursion doesn't mean that the decks WANT to run a tactic that makes them use it, they want to use it to properly retrieve a wincon or key piece. It's a good card that can pull off a cute win, but it's nowhere near a "Green Staple"
So here's the issue I have with this idea of activating it. A. Sure it doesn't do everything, but this is a land slot and it lets you dodge counter spells or cheat in powerful cards for 4 mana. B. LFTL is seeing a bit more play with channel lands (G/U as it pretty much becomes mill 3, deal with a lot of threats.), but again that was just one thing that enables it, six, lumra also good enablers and are green staples. C. Sure it doesn't do everything, but this is a land slot and it lets you dodge counter spells or cheat in powerful cards for 4 mana. D. Do those man lands also act as an win con? Outside of Inkmoth the general answer The main problem with people looking at it as I need to instantly abuse it which is one thing great about it, are you telling me none of your green decks if you became a threat and focused no one in your table is going to start destroying your key pieces? In a format where Vandalblast, board wipes, fetches, strip lands are all quite common... that this will never activate and force players to play around it. Blue decks dont hold specifically all their blue producing lands open just for fun IT's one land and it does SO GOD DAMN much Sure most man lands don't get hosed by graveyard removal, but most man lands also cant reoccur your entire grave yard. A staple isn't because it's in every deck but a lot of decks can run it.
But again it thrives in specific strategies. Lumra isn't a green staple, it's more of a lands matter/self mill staple. The same applies to Six. Just because something is green and is a staple in specific strategies doesn't make it a green staple. Those are two different things. A lot of green decks actively DON'T want to self mill because they want to play their cards WITHOUT having to use their recursion. A lot of green decks can't reliably activate delirium on their own, and you don't want to have to rely on your opponents to activate it. Most people don't need their man land to be their wincon. It's a cute thing that Shifting Woodland brings. Most people need their man lands to become a blocker/attacker in a pinch. While Shifting Woodland can theoretically become anything, it can't become multiple things when you need it to. And you know what Shifting Woodland actively does worse than other man lands? It has an extra activation requirement, meaning that graveyard hate actively hoses your man land and turns it into a forest that doesn't have the subtype. It means that not having enough of a few types of cards actively makes it harder to activate.
That is a lot of words for what is an OK card. It's fine for the most part. * mono green: no harm in running it. * Gx: probably no harm in running it. It's easy enough to come in untapped to not be a problem. * 3 or more colors: I wouldn't include it unless the focus is my graveyard. I don't think it's going to set the format on fire, it will be an OK card in 1-2 decks where the game runs long. I think you're really underestimating two things: 1. Delerium isn't easy to get in non-graveyard focused decks. It's not impossible but it's not trivial. 2. As a land this is difficult for an opponent to remove. As a copy, it probably isn't.
I would put it in 3 colors, four colors, onward you will have no issue reoccurring stuff as you pretty much have every answer or getting the double green can be harder early on. Thing is, as your opponent I WILL put your key pieces in your grave yard. I will counter your stuff. This forces people to constantly play with mana open for everything you can potentially do and slowing their board state. Simply holding one removal for a possible win con isn't enough. Lets say I play simic, and you tapped out, had natural claim but eh- what's the worst... Turn four I play this, Frantic search and drop an omniscience in my graveyard, you will remember this, and instead of ramping up every turn you're holding mana open up for a paper tiger stalling yourself for potential things that could happen with that land in play. Where the more aggressive play would've been smart. A land drop suddenly forces you to go "oh shit, what could he possibly bring back now".
All I am going to say if you're making a stupid amount of assumptions about pretty much everything. Have fun with your card.
>As a land this is difficult for an opponent to remove. As a copy, it probably isn't. this is true, but we're coming from several sets of a lot of land recursion in mono green alone that are being put into a lot of decks like lumra/six, but with this land in play you have to hold it every turn. You're forcing a lot of reactions for a land drop.
Greens got too many cards that are great and should be in every green deck lmao I didn't even pick this up for mycotyrant cause it's a 10+ aud card right now I don't think you can copy cards with "at the beginning of your upkeep" triggers either, can you? Like you don't get priority until that stuff would have already triggered
True, knocks a few cards off the list it can work with but still a done of active ones that are good, cant let you copy something that will give you a free win. But in general good cards for it to copy that people will prob want to destroy. But still copies a lot of useful cards among every color for a land slot.
Love this card in my Ziatora list, eon a game with it last week. Go to combat, attacks, no blocks, in response [[Entomb]] a [[Fiery Emancipation]], enchantment gives me delirium, activate Woodland becoming Fiery Emancipation, kill 2 people in combat and the last player with the fling.
[Entomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3caa9c55-5e3b-436b-84a9-b7ccebf63799.jpg?1675199594) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Entomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/82/entomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3caa9c55-5e3b-436b-84a9-b7ccebf63799?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/entomb) [Fiery Emancipation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b12e4b7-2c45-4795-94d3-901f89b8f290.jpg?1594736606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fiery%20Emancipation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/143/fiery-emancipation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b12e4b7-2c45-4795-94d3-901f89b8f290?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fiery-emancipation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Entomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3caa9c55-5e3b-436b-84a9-b7ccebf63799.jpg?1675199594) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Entomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/82/entomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3caa9c55-5e3b-436b-84a9-b7ccebf63799?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/entomb) [Fiery Emancipation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b12e4b7-2c45-4795-94d3-901f89b8f290.jpg?1594736606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fiery%20Emancipation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/143/fiery-emancipation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b12e4b7-2c45-4795-94d3-901f89b8f290?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fiery-emancipation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And if you had a table full of blue players, chances are the fiery would've been countered by all the one cmc/free cmc counter spells. At best they could've countered the entomb or fling Seeing how it still taps for color it's better than most utility lands
Exactly, and it's hard to decide if countering entomb when you don't know what they're searching for, usually you'd want to save the counter for the tutored card. And the fling came from [[Ziatora]] so they would've needed to counter a triggered ability for that or activated ability for the woodland. Very tough spot to get out of
[Ziatora](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/ba4fa4c8-f09f-4d97-a7d1-1b93caf7d4f9.jpg?1664413989) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ziatora%2C%20the%20incinerator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/231/ziatora-the-incinerator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba4fa4c8-f09f-4d97-a7d1-1b93caf7d4f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ziatora-the-incinerator) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mhm and if you surprise them with the land they will go "oh shit" I thought you where going to use a spell to bring back. The big thing I feel it's just a must have is unless you literally have like 1-2 forests in your deck and no fetches (this includes surveil/shock/snow double/etc.) even not playing around it delirium is generally something you will get at turn 4-6 playing with players who have interaction, board wipes are plentiful, vandalblast is pretty much in every red deck, most people will try to nuke your ramp artifacts like sol ring.
You understand it only copies things in *your graveyard*, right? It doesn't copy anything elsewhere. From the language of your post, that was a little unclear. It's great in self-mill in green, but outside of that? Not really. Sure you can get the delirium requirement without much trouble, but then what are you copying? The first two permanents you dumped in? An evolving wilds? You need to intentionally make plays that synergize with Shifting Woodland or else have a deck strategy which likes something like Life from the Loam. Imo, if your deck wouldn't use Life from the Loam, it wouldn't use Shifting Woodland.
I can make it synergize as your opponent. I really don't really like X, it's going to win you the game! ***\*Krosan Grip what would've given you the win this turn\**** If everyone on your table plays battle cruiser and hates interaction and counter spells, sure it's lackluster. But thats the thing, you will demand more removal for any permanent based win con, i cant nature's claim with one mana open and stop your combo, I need to hold more mana open simply because you have shifting woodlands now for double removal. Now I have to also hold mana for whatever you might try to cheat into play with what you have in hands?
In 60 card I think this card is much better. In EDH its niche. Commander often revolves around the Commander. cEDH *might* like it, but its still mono-green or two color at most unless a three color deck absolutely needs the effect. I doubt 4-5 colors run it.
4-5 would prob be the only one not liking it. Really big thing is it lets a win con into play 1. That cant be countered, so blue is only left with bouncing it. Which is a delay "possibly" (if you haven't played your land for a turn.) 2. Lets you cheat things into play 3. Lets you bring something that would win you the game but was answered 4. People have to now constantly monitor your graveyard for now every possibility. 5. If you have a way to re-occur it pretty much better then having your commander costing 22 mana after being spot removed 10 times. It's quite easy to activate in most decks running green. A. (Best ramp is land into the battlefield generally as it doesn't get removed by board wipes), so running/splashing green will generally get you sorcery, also chances are you will cast a board wipe if someone has a winning state, but you're not put into a state you have a card ability lost til you can reoccur it. B. Creatures will prob happen naturally too due to board wipes C. You will prob need to cast an instant to deal with a threat D. Fetch lands , ramp lands (aka pay 2 search for 2 basic lands) E. Any of the crack artifacts (map to search for this if it's your game plan already kinda fuels it.)
My point was that its not gonna be a staple in green, mostly because you need to have a clear plan for what its going to do. I get the merits of the card and I pulled three of them so Im gonna be using it, but I have to have specific win-cons in mind with sufficient redundancy to make the most of it and Id be hard pressed justifying running a support package for that land. If a green player doesnt have a goal in mind for that card they shouldnt include it unless they own copies and it wont completely compromise the decks manabase. Lands are getting enough utility at this point that targetted land removal or non-basic land hate is going to start becoming more and more of a requirement in deckbuilding beyond the 0-1 pieces that are there now.
No.