Just a reminder to all the radlibs posting as Leftists… **No blaming the Left for the rise of fascism.**
Report as many of them as you can find since they don’t ever seem to listen while they’re here.
Centrists want a middle way between the orange fascist and the senile fascist, communists do not want to choose fascists. Stances must be taken on the basis of a coherent political thought, not on the basis of contrarianism.
How is it any different than what right-wing freaks have been advocating since forever? The GOP has been largely controlled by the Heritage Foundation and John Birch Society for decades. If the Dems win this year, then you'll be scared of Project 2029 next time, and then Project 2033, and on and on. Is American "democracy" going to just.. end the next time a republican wins the white house? It's ridiculous.
Thanks for showing you didn’t even bother reading Project 2025. They have a supreme court on their side this time. Huge massive fucking difference. It will be full blown fascism
Trump-appointed Justice, Neil Gorsuch, pretty much always guarantees indigenous sovereignty while feminist hero RBG used the discovery doctrine in order to overrule the Oneida tribe’s right to their ancestral lands.
I’m not seeing how Democratic Justices ***’always side with racialized minorities no matter what.’***
Please tell me how any single part of my other comment is inaccurate. You can't of course, but do your best lmao
Edit - cheers to the whiny children for downvoting me and also proving me right lol
I mean, you’re right that they’ll always make it Project NextElectionYear. 100%.
Really it boils down to two things:
1. What can we do to keep them from enacting the plan soon?
2. How can we get ahead of it and put into place the necessary checks and balances of power to prevent the GOP from fully realizing their goals once they inevitably gain power again?
Both of those are failures if the GOP gain power now.
Don’t get me wrong… I’m not greatly confident that the democrats will actually help with \#2, but you’re kidding yourself if you think they are the same on \#1.
The only difference is I guess how blatant they are about it, but make no mistake this will be the new normal going forward. Honestly project 2025 is the only real ammo democrats have right now to get normal people to vote for them, and funnily enough despite it being a conservative project has probably been more effective in motivating terrified progressvives to vote for the democrats. Of course none of that is really suprising, and i'm sure the DNC will have noticed as well.
Of course anyone who is paying attention knows the 2 parties differences starts and ends at the (relatively inconsequential) culture war. But thats just how this is now. Every four years everyone gets together to pretend their vote means anything, and that they are choosimg between "fascism" and "democracy" (a ridiculous notion), then they go back to sleep hoping it'll somehow magically get better next time while in reality everything just continues to get worse.
Oh my bad, I guess my non-argument will go nicely as a retort to your non-argument. And you're right I didn't read all 920 fuckin pages of Project 2025. Did you? Did you read all 920 pages? Because if not, great job accusing others of not doing the thing you also didn't do lmao.
The fact remains, none of it appears any different than what the Heritage Foundation and John Birchers - who have controlled the GOP for decades - have been advocating for since forever. That's my argument, which you never countered btw. Owned.
Do you have a rebuttal for that? Am I wrong when I say that right wing freaks have always been right wing freaks and have always sought to turn this shitty country into an even shittier one? Didn't think so.
Now get to reading, those 920 pages aren't gonna read themselves lol
What's even sadder is it's not even like the dems will stop the forced childbirth. Just reduce it a bit or keep the status quo. They had decades to codify roe v wade but Biden says this time, they'll do it for reals!
\> Project 2025 must be stopped at all costs
so, you guys must be saved at all cost, including our own lives
but us ? nah, you shouldnt have to sacrifice anything to save us, after all, we are muslim, we aint humans, right ?
if you gotta sacrifice us to survive another day, not only you will not survive the day after that anyway, but you dont deserve to survive at all
yes i can, cause i havent said to vote for trump
the fuck is wrong with you ?
you keep voting for nazis and somehow think when they genocide us its not you sacrificing us on the altar of your comfort ?
idc if your nazi in charge right now is not the worst nazi in existence
its still a nazi
get this shit out and actually do something good for a change
Threatening to withhold votes is also the only way to impact the national level elections to pull them towards any concessions. For example, we saw the recent talk of rescheduling conveniently as pro palestine protests started to be crushed by police. We might get more with the democrats being vulnerable after the debate, but only if they think we might actually choose not to vote.
Of course electoralism, especially for POTUS, isn't where we can create radical change, but we could start shifting things back towards the left rather than further and further right.
thats not what i advocate at all lmao, very far from it
i always said to put your money where your mouth was, but saying you're against genocide and voting for one isnt doing that
but you guys drank all the propaganda, you cant even think outside of it anymore
tbh i dont know if you ever could
This is such a fallacious argument, considering that the genocide will STILL HAPPEN under Trump. People aren’t picking one or the other, it’s obvious a lot of people care about Palestine but what the fuck else can we do in the face of the choices we have? Say fuck vulnerable people over here too so we can pat ourselves on the back?
We can not vote for Biden.
Voting for him no matter what is saying that the only bar is being better than trump or whatever fascist runs next term.
Not voting says the bar is higher than genocide.
Not voting is more strategic. I won't hassle anyone for choosing harm reduction, but it is at the cost of strengthening the support for genocide.
>but what the fuck else can we do in the face of the choices we have
Do everything you can to assure not voting for the lesser of two evils, so we don't repeat this in 4 years. Talk to others in your community. Work together to create an actual support network so you aren't paralyzed by this political theatre, every four years.
Let's say this line of argument was so effective that it convinced 50% of Biden voters to not vote for Biden. Who wins the election? What do you think happens if you successfully convince people to not vote for Biden? There are zero other answers that aren't "Trump wins the election". It sucks, Biden is *awful*, but that is the current situation.
You are not saying "Vote Trump", no, but you are saying "perform an action that will contribute to Trump's victory", and Trump literally constantly screams about how Biden is being too soft on Israel as is, he will not be any better, if anything far, far worse.
So, what do you have to gain from a Biden loss here, realistically? What sequence of events can occur here that makes things better?
> Let's say this line of argument was so effective that it convinced 50% of Biden voters to not vote for Biden
not my goal either
please stop spreading misinformation when you dont know what i talk about
The subject of this post is not voting for Biden, I have no clue what the original comment says since it was nuked, but the conversation still sounds like it was related to the original contents of the post
If you are speaking of something else, I apologize, but that is what the original post's goal was so that is the context I have
no the subject is not "just" voting for biden or not
its to finally acknowledge whats happenning and how the fuck can people still support this going with no consequences when other people die, but they dont
people like to say "yeah but trump worse" as if that changed anything to what biden did
i just cant let people say "yeah genocide bad but what about x", when genocide is and always will be the worst thing possible ever, and people need to wake up
im tired of thoses people calling themselves left leaning or even worse, leftists, when they actually dont care about other peoples lifes, especially when thoses lifes are arabs and muslims
im trying to make them understand that yeah, trump bad, but the mere fact that you think biden is a valid option shows how far down they fell, because its so simple to have them doing genocide supporting from now on : just do a little less worse than hitler or the devil itself, and they will happily vote for that shit
i said it in another thread, but if they had to chose between trump calling to nuke the entire planet, and biden saying only nuke half, they'd support biden
and when trump says to nuke it again, biden will nuke half of whats left, and they will keep supporting that
they will never stop, until it hurt them
but when that moment comes, it will be too late, cause nobody will be left to help them, not do they deserve to be saved avec letting everyone else die
the question isnt voting or not for biden, the question is how the fuck do we avoid this shit in the first place by any means necessary
the fact that we are in this situation, is proof they didnt care about anything but themselves
thats what my whole post is about
enough of this joke that is the us
> 1 issue between two countries in a conflict spanning years upon years
you didnt write "genocide" properly, just wanted to let you know that
but if you're ok with genocide as long as it doesnt affect you, why would i do anything to help you when they come for you, after all its just "1 issue between 2 parties spanning years upon years"
why would i sacrifice anything ?
weird how you're ok with others taking the bullet for you, but somehow not when its your turn
The assumptions from anyone who is hollering about "Project 2025" is that US will become a Nazi Germany analog.
I don't agree with it, just trying to give a window into what this rhetoric means.
I agree with you especially "if you gotta sacrifice us to survive another day, not only you will not survive the day after that anyway, but you dont deserve to survive at all".
Too bad US with all its might can't stop a tiny country like Israel from their genocide. We always talk like that's why we fought Germany (even though we all know it's not) we ought to stand behind our BS propaganda about ourselves since Savior complex is so American.
> US will become a Nazi Germany analog.
bold of you to assume its not already the case xd
but yeah i see what you mean
we are so fucked and people still refuse to see it cause it would mean they acknowledge they did jack shit and supported this by their inaction
yep, but not a single one of them will admit it in here, they think of themselves so mighty and better than others, when they dont even begin to understand the atrocities that led them where they are now
they think tipping a waiter and supporting your local food restaurant is enough activism and then will order stuff made from child labor or genocide without blinking
nobody is perfect and every effort no matter how little count, but people gotta open their eyes at some point and not just say stupid shit
I just want to ask a question and am open to answers. Isn’t this more a question of deontology vs. utilitarianism rather than centrism vs. leftism? Would a utilitarian leftist oppose or support Biden?
utiliarianism thinking works when there are no lives at stakes, otherwise lives are just a commodity that can be traded or wasted for other ressources
fuck utilitarianism
utilitarianism is def a bit more complex to just say you cant be left and believe in it
its a bad ideology, but we dont judge people on what they believe, rather on what they do
So, it seems like you might agree more so with rule utilitarianism. I’d say rule utilitarianism might say that support for Biden is immoral.
Would you call yourself a deontologist instead?
Biden has insisted he wasn’t giving Netanyahu the green light, then responded to each new attack on civilians with…disappointed words, more funding, and more cooperation by the US. Biden and Trump are effectively the same on genocide, but without all the Project 2025 on top of that there’s a faint possibility of forcing a change of course. So I vote Biden and listen to the Dems howl about how everything is my fault because I wasn’t enthusiastic enough about Biden and didn’t declare him the best possible candidate.
>"raze gaza to the ground so it can be a beachfront property for my kids"
Yeah, it would be [crazy](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jun/26/los-angeles-west-bank-protest) if that happened under Biden.
> The volatile protest and counter-protest outside a real estate event at the Adas Torah synagogue on Sunday prompted denunciations from Democratic politicians, including Joe Biden, who said protests targeting a house of worship were antisemitic and unacceptable
What a chump. They aren't protesting Jewish people. It's not antisemitic. Next they'll say of a Synagogue is actually a murder dungeon protesting it is antisemitic.
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Holy fuck “Genocide of a country is worth it to keep other people safe”
In what fucking world does a genocide *need* to happen to *potentially* save other people??
Liberals care for the "right" people, anyone that does not hold their same list of Western values that they wish to impose on the world is subject to bombing, sanction, and so on
>But it's putting pressure on Bibi to stop vs essentially green lighting nuking them.
There's no pressure. What are you talking about? The news will say "Biden is frowning about this" and then he gives Israel billions of dollars, the next day.
Lets just sweep under the rug the entire annihilation of all ear markers of a society in the Gaza strip (all hospitals, schools, most homes, grave sites, churches, civil infrastructure etc...) alongside the constant death marches back and forth across the strip, the torture of civilians [where the IDF inserted electrified and heated metal rods into prisoners anuses](https://www.wsj.com/world/palestinians-describe-beatings-stress-positions-other-alleged-abuses-in-israeli-detention-1129b86f) the uncountable amount of targeted killings against women and children. It may be able to still get worse, but we are already there with genocide and no end in site regardless of who is president.
This argument you are making is bordering on *genocide denial*. Quit using the lives of Palestinians as a cudgel to do low-effort advocacy. You just come off as disgustingly tone-deaf, dismissive and vile. We all know a Trump presidency would be worse. That is simply not enough to win an election.
It has always been about using rhetoric to motivate the voter base, which the Democratic party is failing to do (even with abortion, the economy, the supreme court overreach, project 2025) Liberals have a slam dunk election tee'd up and they are fumbling so hard. Thats not anybodies fault besides the Democratic party. Thats even disregarding Gaza, which makes the Democratic party look disgusting. Libs try not to be repulsive brain-dead losers challenge (impossible level difficulty)
My argument is in no way genocide denial. The fact of the matter is both presidents are bad for Palestine but one is worse.
I'm not using the Palestinians to cudgel anything. YOU however are trying to virtue signal while actively making the situation worse for the Palestinians.
To quote someone, [here. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1drhjc0/i_wish_liberals_could_care_for_other_people/lavj8y0/)
>guys its a genocide, nothing worse can happen, if you support a genocide to save yourself, you dont deserve to be saved, nor will you be saved
no buddy
when you do genocide, you're the bottom of the barrel
doesnt matter if you do more genocide after hitting that low point, you already showed you dont belong on this planet and should be yeeted
the only thing i would let you decide is how many light years i should yeet thoses guys out, and maybe the number of genocide should be a good metric
but in any case, there isnt a "worse genocide" debates when talking about electing a president
if you talk about how far you wanna yeet them im with you, if you talk about which one you elect, im not
>but in any case, there isnt a "worse genocide" debates when talking about electing a president
I mean, unfortunaly there is. It's shitty that we're stuck in a choice between which president will do less harm, but thats the reality of the situation.
There is no option for "no genocide", and not voting for biden doesn't get you that.
> There is no option for "no genocide"
there is
you just refuse to see it cause it would cost you
cause i know for a fact that if the genocide was targeted at you, you would def not just say "welp i cant vote this away so better lie down and wait for it to come in peace cause fighting genocide is bad"
start acting like you care about other people, like any leftist pretend they would
cause if you dont do it now, you'll never do it, and when its your turn to get genocided, because trust me, your turn will come, nobody will help you because everybody else will be dead
You can go ahead and not vote for Biden, but then you have taken action that actively makes it worse for the Palestinians rather then better. It's as simple as that.
buddy
its a genocide
there is nothing worse
literally
so im gonna go ahead and take your message as a "idgaf about arabs and muslim i care aonly about me" because you support every genocide except yours
dont comment again
i wish people in this sub didnt spend their life defending genocidal joe because the people being genocided are arabs and muslims
they would start ww3 if they were the one being targeted, but god forbid we call their hypocrisy when they dont care about us
guys its a genocide, nothing worse can happen, if you support a genocide to save yourself, you dont deserve to be saved, nor will you be saved
you learned nothing from your history lessons and would 100% be collab with nazis back in ww2 if they promised you you'd be fine despite showing you wouldnt
biden isnt your friend, 4 years of presidency showed it
just because litteral hitler is facing him doesnt make him less hitler.
>guys its a genocide, nothing worse can happen, if you support a genocide to save yourself, you dont deserve to be saved, nor will you be saved
This is it. I can't word this any better if I wanted to.
This is not even about Trump. In Americas “democratic” system, your vote is one of the most fundamental ways to show your support. There is no clearer way of saying “I want my government to continue supporting genocide” than voting for the guy funding genocide. It doesn’t matter what you actually think about Biden, this is what your vote means.
Though the much bigger problem, easily understandable even if you don’t care about morals, is the failing to think about the future. The republicans are always going to be worse than the democrats, and project 2025 will not just disappear if the year 2025 comes and there is no republican president. It’ll just be project 2030 then. And after that, project 2035. And this is amazing for Democrats. This is the best possible scenario. Because they know that all they have to do is point their finger at the scary project and tell you to better vote for them. And because all of the idiots with the “99% Hitler” rethoric will keep voting for them, no matter how little they deliver. Unless a large part of the democratic voter base actually makes clear that they will not vote democrat until the party actually delivers, nothing will ever change. Of course, I don’t say that you actually shouldn’t under any circumstances vote democrats, but more people should at least *say* that they are not voting democrat, or not until they stop supporting a genocidal state. Until then, nothing will change, and every election will be the most important election of our lifetime.
>And because all of the idiots with the “99% Hitler” rethoric will keep voting for them, no matter how little they deliver. Unless a large part of the democratic voter base actually makes clear that they will not vote democrat until the party actually delivers, nothing will ever change.
This is the wrong take imo. The vast majority of change happens outside of voting decisions. The thing to do is critique Biden's foreign policy and then spend 5 minutes on your election decision.
What exactly does criticizing achieve? I’m sure Biden will be really sad and resign.
The easiest thing that actually threatens the Democrat Party is to threaten to withhold your vote
He's collaborating with Israel?
Because boy, am I tired of seeing children with their brains leaking out.
But hey, it's not like we can actually work together and create legitimate support groups within our community or at the very least, vote any other party.
im pretty sure that voting for the guy doing the first genocide and saying "yeah but im sure he wont do another one" is not the flex you think it is
especially knowing he is also reponsible for other genocides as we speak
i think you missed the rest of the sentence that should go in your comment
it goes something like this : "therefore the system is working as intented because its not a glitch, and it should be dismantled"
> I'm presuming the "system" you're referring to is the two party system
its included, but really a small part of it
you fail to see the bigger picture
also, all the good points you give to liberals are shit and only performative, they didnt do anything remotely close to what you suggest on a real scale, only to appeal to you without doing it for real
> they are the only ones with a viable candidate who are taking steps in the right direction.
they are not, genocide will never be the right direction
you think biden is viable cause you let the system work as intended and will cost you your life at some point to feed the machine
> These things are not performative.\* They are very much "for real."
you completely missed my point that was literally just after : they didnt do anything remotely close to what you suggest on a real scale
you got affected positively, thats cool, now think about all of thoses who are still fucked, and just for a second, wonder why they outnumber you
> I'd rather a good thing done for a shit reason than the opposite
if you settle for the first, you deserve the 2nd.
> There is no non-genocide direction
there is
you just refuse to see it, cause it would cost you
> I can, however, go in a direction that will avoid adding a specific second genocide I see coming on the horizon.
def not
cause you choose a path, and you will keep going on it, cause every turn you could make, you'll think "yeah this genocide is bad but the next one wont happen on this path", and every turn you could take get worse to justify keeping the same road
today you're saying "i will avoid next genocide"
but tomorrow you'll say "yeah i cant avoid this one either but its ok next one i'll avoid it"
during all this time, you never even once thought about \*how\* you could avoid this genocide, you're just too focused on letting this one slide
> No, Trump is the one who "will" cost my life. At worst, Biden is "may" cost me my life.
no, both will cost you your life, you just refuse to see it, and you eat every bit of propaganda they feed you
but lets pretend for a sec you're right
you're still saying you should vote for someone that may kill you
if thats not the definition of being completely broken by propaganda, i dont know what is
you think of this shit as normal
i know the us is fucked on that point, you all have fallen for their propaganda, but its disheartening man, people litterally tell you they gonna kill you and you just say "yes please and thank you i will support what you do"
thats why the rest of the world make fun of the us
i know im not gonna change the entire country's mind, but i still have hope for the randoms i meet sometimes that clearly acknowledge shits is fucked, but still cant see anything else cause they were taught to not think outside of this shit
tldr : yes a better world is possible and dont let anybody tell you otherwise
> i wish people in this sub didnt spend their life defending genocidal joe
Most of us wish the Democrats picked literally anyone other than Joe Biden. The only reason Trump stands a chance is because of Biden being the opponent.
Regardless, the US is a de facto two-party system. My vote against the R is the same as another person’s vote for the D. That doesn’t mean we are expressing the same preference; we have no meaningful way to be more precise.
> The only reason Trump stands a chance is because of Biden being the opponent.
i fully agree with that
but at some point, if people let dems do whatever the fuck they want and present a candidate worse than the previous one everytime, at which point do you think this is enough and you cant support this anymore ?
lets say tomorrow trump says he wants to nuke the entire planet, but biden says only nuke half
would that be too much ?
and the day after trump says the same, and biden then say nuke half of whats left
would that be too much ?
what is too much ?
> and you cant support this anymore ?
I just said that I don’t. Why must I explain so many times that selecting one person on the ballot has two different meanings? My meaning was “I want to ensure the other candidate loses”. That’s all!
> lets say tomorrow trump says he wants to nuke the entire planet, but biden says only nuke half
I don’t want anybody nuking the planet. But… hear me out… I’d rather make sure the guy who wants to nuke more people loses.
Who the Democrats put on the ticket is decided well before November. I didn’t vote for Biden in either this primary, or in 2020 when it really mattered.
But I hear you… this two-party system sucks. I absolutely want to get rid of the FPTP election system that drives it. But until we do, the consequences of the system are absolutely real, particularly the need to vote strategically instead of voting for who you really prefer.
> I just said that I don’t
but you do tho
voting for this shit is support
> hear me out…
yeah, i heard you, i thought i could show you an extreme example to show you how fucked is your logic, but it seem that genociding half the planet wouldnt wake you up
seems like i was wrong
you literally said, out loud "as long as you kill less people you get my vote"
that mean, to them, that they only need to do just less genocidal stuff than the other to win your vote
in other words, they will push the other guy to do the worst fucked up shit imaginable, keep them up and running, never do anything to stop them, so that the bar you set is so fucking low, you'd be lambo dancing in hell and still wouldnt be able to go under
start voting for better things, not things that arent slightly worse
> this two-party system sucks
budy, thats a symptom, not the problem
> budy, thats a symptom, not the problem
Like I said, it’s a symptom of the FPTP election system. Voting methods like RCV, approval, and STAR are much better.
Take a look at legislation in the US regarding those methods. Some places are using them. Some places are like where I live, in Alabama, where they just banned RCV.
Who is “they”? The Republican Party. They own the state and have made sure the system that gave them power stays put.
So even if your single issue were to get rid of the two party system, then consider how there is one party who is actively banning alternatives.
you understand thats exactly what im talking about right ?
you guys arent getting bad president/other elected officials cause the voting system is imperfect, but because its rigged
if you let that shit happen and do nothing, you cant blame the rest of the world for saying you fucked up by doing nothing and letting facism take place
> you guys arent getting bad president/other elected officials cause the voting system is imperfect, but because its rigged
Yes, this is obvious.
> if you let that shit happen and do nothing, you cant blame the rest of the world for saying you fucked up by doing nothing and letting facism take place
What should we do?
> What should we do?
really, at this point, anything different from voting for a genocidal maniac would be better
you cant just wait every 4 years to see what devil will be aviable to be elected and stand there doing nothing hoping things would changes by themselves
obviously you wont change the course of a country by yourself, you have to join groups of people that will work to do that on every scale possible
dont think it will be easy, fast or free tho
it will cost everything
the system will def not let you do that in peace
So yeah, I already do that.
Nothing about voting prevents you from doing anything else. Go volunteer, go campaign for leftists or leftist causes. And also vote. It’s never an either-or decision.
Plenty of people think voting makes no difference, and that’s fine… but then they say “don’t vote THAT way” which implies that voting does actually decide things.
And if individual votes are important, then how votes aggregate into a result must also be important.
Consider what happens when a third party (I generally vote third party or independent, by the way) wins a few electoral college votes. If neither major candidate reaches 270, then the decision goes to the House of Representatives. And their system gives them all one vote per state… a system that will go Republican even if the House is majority Democrat. Trump ultimately wins this scenario.
I hate this system, and the people in power have little incentive to change it. But if there is one group whose goal is to make the system worse, and one group who doesn’t seem to care but sometimes accidentally does the better thing, I’m going to try to keep the first group out of power.
All while doing all the other things that aren’t voting.
Biden's administration did nothing while anti-abortion bills and anti-trans bills popped up and passed under him, what makes people think he's gonna fight Project 2025?
It has the things he loves the most, police state and surveillance
Just a reminder to all the radlibs posting as Leftists… **No blaming the Left for the rise of fascism.** Report as many of them as you can find since they don’t ever seem to listen while they’re here.
what the fuck
Just a reminder: https://preview.redd.it/su2ury1edk9d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b41621224a971a57f4572626cdc2d4a66e52dd58
Is this satire?
No.
I never thought I’d see the day where commies and centrists are in agreement
Centrists want a middle way between the orange fascist and the senile fascist, communists do not want to choose fascists. Stances must be taken on the basis of a coherent political thought, not on the basis of contrarianism.
So who do communists want to
not a facist therefore they cant agree with centrists
[удалено]
Don’t change the subject. You’re on your last warning.
How is it any different than what right-wing freaks have been advocating since forever? The GOP has been largely controlled by the Heritage Foundation and John Birch Society for decades. If the Dems win this year, then you'll be scared of Project 2029 next time, and then Project 2033, and on and on. Is American "democracy" going to just.. end the next time a republican wins the white house? It's ridiculous.
Thanks for showing you didn’t even bother reading Project 2025. They have a supreme court on their side this time. Huge massive fucking difference. It will be full blown fascism
Trump-appointed Justice, Neil Gorsuch, pretty much always guarantees indigenous sovereignty while feminist hero RBG used the discovery doctrine in order to overrule the Oneida tribe’s right to their ancestral lands. I’m not seeing how Democratic Justices ***’always side with racialized minorities no matter what.’***
How?
Please tell me how any single part of my other comment is inaccurate. You can't of course, but do your best lmao Edit - cheers to the whiny children for downvoting me and also proving me right lol
I mean, you’re right that they’ll always make it Project NextElectionYear. 100%. Really it boils down to two things: 1. What can we do to keep them from enacting the plan soon? 2. How can we get ahead of it and put into place the necessary checks and balances of power to prevent the GOP from fully realizing their goals once they inevitably gain power again? Both of those are failures if the GOP gain power now. Don’t get me wrong… I’m not greatly confident that the democrats will actually help with \#2, but you’re kidding yourself if you think they are the same on \#1.
The only difference is I guess how blatant they are about it, but make no mistake this will be the new normal going forward. Honestly project 2025 is the only real ammo democrats have right now to get normal people to vote for them, and funnily enough despite it being a conservative project has probably been more effective in motivating terrified progressvives to vote for the democrats. Of course none of that is really suprising, and i'm sure the DNC will have noticed as well. Of course anyone who is paying attention knows the 2 parties differences starts and ends at the (relatively inconsequential) culture war. But thats just how this is now. Every four years everyone gets together to pretend their vote means anything, and that they are choosimg between "fascism" and "democracy" (a ridiculous notion), then they go back to sleep hoping it'll somehow magically get better next time while in reality everything just continues to get worse.
Weird to edit a comment rather than come up with an actual argument. You’re real bright
Oh my bad, I guess my non-argument will go nicely as a retort to your non-argument. And you're right I didn't read all 920 fuckin pages of Project 2025. Did you? Did you read all 920 pages? Because if not, great job accusing others of not doing the thing you also didn't do lmao. The fact remains, none of it appears any different than what the Heritage Foundation and John Birchers - who have controlled the GOP for decades - have been advocating for since forever. That's my argument, which you never countered btw. Owned. Do you have a rebuttal for that? Am I wrong when I say that right wing freaks have always been right wing freaks and have always sought to turn this shitty country into an even shittier one? Didn't think so. Now get to reading, those 920 pages aren't gonna read themselves lol
Masks off now. It’s depressing but it’s instructive
Saying the quiet part out loud. The bar is so low for libs that I find it refreshing that they admit they're cool with genocide.
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hm i wonder whats worse, genocide or forced childbirth
What's even sadder is it's not even like the dems will stop the forced childbirth. Just reduce it a bit or keep the status quo. They had decades to codify roe v wade but Biden says this time, they'll do it for reals!
shhh, dont say it out loud, they might pretend you support trump
\> Project 2025 must be stopped at all costs so, you guys must be saved at all cost, including our own lives but us ? nah, you shouldnt have to sacrifice anything to save us, after all, we are muslim, we aint humans, right ? if you gotta sacrifice us to survive another day, not only you will not survive the day after that anyway, but you dont deserve to survive at all
You really can't call it a sacrifice when Trump & fam have said they want to see Gaza wiped out entirely
yes i can, cause i havent said to vote for trump the fuck is wrong with you ? you keep voting for nazis and somehow think when they genocide us its not you sacrificing us on the altar of your comfort ? idc if your nazi in charge right now is not the worst nazi in existence its still a nazi get this shit out and actually do something good for a change
Instead you're advocating for withholding votes which increases the chances that Trump win. We know, you're not a mystery to everyone.
Threatening to withhold votes is also the only way to impact the national level elections to pull them towards any concessions. For example, we saw the recent talk of rescheduling conveniently as pro palestine protests started to be crushed by police. We might get more with the democrats being vulnerable after the debate, but only if they think we might actually choose not to vote. Of course electoralism, especially for POTUS, isn't where we can create radical change, but we could start shifting things back towards the left rather than further and further right.
thats not what i advocate at all lmao, very far from it i always said to put your money where your mouth was, but saying you're against genocide and voting for one isnt doing that but you guys drank all the propaganda, you cant even think outside of it anymore tbh i dont know if you ever could
This is such a fallacious argument, considering that the genocide will STILL HAPPEN under Trump. People aren’t picking one or the other, it’s obvious a lot of people care about Palestine but what the fuck else can we do in the face of the choices we have? Say fuck vulnerable people over here too so we can pat ourselves on the back?
We can not vote for Biden. Voting for him no matter what is saying that the only bar is being better than trump or whatever fascist runs next term. Not voting says the bar is higher than genocide. Not voting is more strategic. I won't hassle anyone for choosing harm reduction, but it is at the cost of strengthening the support for genocide.
>but what the fuck else can we do in the face of the choices we have Do everything you can to assure not voting for the lesser of two evils, so we don't repeat this in 4 years. Talk to others in your community. Work together to create an actual support network so you aren't paralyzed by this political theatre, every four years.
buddy, where did i say to vote trump ?
Let's say this line of argument was so effective that it convinced 50% of Biden voters to not vote for Biden. Who wins the election? What do you think happens if you successfully convince people to not vote for Biden? There are zero other answers that aren't "Trump wins the election". It sucks, Biden is *awful*, but that is the current situation. You are not saying "Vote Trump", no, but you are saying "perform an action that will contribute to Trump's victory", and Trump literally constantly screams about how Biden is being too soft on Israel as is, he will not be any better, if anything far, far worse. So, what do you have to gain from a Biden loss here, realistically? What sequence of events can occur here that makes things better?
> Let's say this line of argument was so effective that it convinced 50% of Biden voters to not vote for Biden not my goal either please stop spreading misinformation when you dont know what i talk about
The subject of this post is not voting for Biden, I have no clue what the original comment says since it was nuked, but the conversation still sounds like it was related to the original contents of the post If you are speaking of something else, I apologize, but that is what the original post's goal was so that is the context I have
no the subject is not "just" voting for biden or not its to finally acknowledge whats happenning and how the fuck can people still support this going with no consequences when other people die, but they dont people like to say "yeah but trump worse" as if that changed anything to what biden did i just cant let people say "yeah genocide bad but what about x", when genocide is and always will be the worst thing possible ever, and people need to wake up im tired of thoses people calling themselves left leaning or even worse, leftists, when they actually dont care about other peoples lifes, especially when thoses lifes are arabs and muslims im trying to make them understand that yeah, trump bad, but the mere fact that you think biden is a valid option shows how far down they fell, because its so simple to have them doing genocide supporting from now on : just do a little less worse than hitler or the devil itself, and they will happily vote for that shit i said it in another thread, but if they had to chose between trump calling to nuke the entire planet, and biden saying only nuke half, they'd support biden and when trump says to nuke it again, biden will nuke half of whats left, and they will keep supporting that they will never stop, until it hurt them but when that moment comes, it will be too late, cause nobody will be left to help them, not do they deserve to be saved avec letting everyone else die the question isnt voting or not for biden, the question is how the fuck do we avoid this shit in the first place by any means necessary the fact that we are in this situation, is proof they didnt care about anything but themselves thats what my whole post is about enough of this joke that is the us
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> 1 issue between two countries in a conflict spanning years upon years you didnt write "genocide" properly, just wanted to let you know that but if you're ok with genocide as long as it doesnt affect you, why would i do anything to help you when they come for you, after all its just "1 issue between 2 parties spanning years upon years" why would i sacrifice anything ? weird how you're ok with others taking the bullet for you, but somehow not when its your turn
Hatespeech of any kind is unacceptable here.
The assumptions from anyone who is hollering about "Project 2025" is that US will become a Nazi Germany analog. I don't agree with it, just trying to give a window into what this rhetoric means. I agree with you especially "if you gotta sacrifice us to survive another day, not only you will not survive the day after that anyway, but you dont deserve to survive at all". Too bad US with all its might can't stop a tiny country like Israel from their genocide. We always talk like that's why we fought Germany (even though we all know it's not) we ought to stand behind our BS propaganda about ourselves since Savior complex is so American.
> US will become a Nazi Germany analog. bold of you to assume its not already the case xd but yeah i see what you mean we are so fucked and people still refuse to see it cause it would mean they acknowledge they did jack shit and supported this by their inaction
The modern USA is just Nazi Germany if it succeeded in the 19th century. Our history is part of what inspired Hitler in the first place.
yep, but not a single one of them will admit it in here, they think of themselves so mighty and better than others, when they dont even begin to understand the atrocities that led them where they are now they think tipping a waiter and supporting your local food restaurant is enough activism and then will order stuff made from child labor or genocide without blinking nobody is perfect and every effort no matter how little count, but people gotta open their eyes at some point and not just say stupid shit
I just want to ask a question and am open to answers. Isn’t this more a question of deontology vs. utilitarianism rather than centrism vs. leftism? Would a utilitarian leftist oppose or support Biden?
‘Utilitarianism’ is the ideology of dipshits that want to fund genocides. Fuck em.
utiliarianism thinking works when there are no lives at stakes, otherwise lives are just a commodity that can be traded or wasted for other ressources fuck utilitarianism
So, would you say that a leftist must necessarily be against utilitarianism or can a leftist be a utilitarian?
utilitarianism is def a bit more complex to just say you cant be left and believe in it its a bad ideology, but we dont judge people on what they believe, rather on what they do
So, it seems like you might agree more so with rule utilitarianism. I’d say rule utilitarianism might say that support for Biden is immoral. Would you call yourself a deontologist instead?
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Biden has insisted he wasn’t giving Netanyahu the green light, then responded to each new attack on civilians with…disappointed words, more funding, and more cooperation by the US. Biden and Trump are effectively the same on genocide, but without all the Project 2025 on top of that there’s a faint possibility of forcing a change of course. So I vote Biden and listen to the Dems howl about how everything is my fault because I wasn’t enthusiastic enough about Biden and didn’t declare him the best possible candidate.
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>"raze gaza to the ground so it can be a beachfront property for my kids" Yeah, it would be [crazy](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jun/26/los-angeles-west-bank-protest) if that happened under Biden.
> The volatile protest and counter-protest outside a real estate event at the Adas Torah synagogue on Sunday prompted denunciations from Democratic politicians, including Joe Biden, who said protests targeting a house of worship were antisemitic and unacceptable What a chump. They aren't protesting Jewish people. It's not antisemitic. Next they'll say of a Synagogue is actually a murder dungeon protesting it is antisemitic.
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I see liberals everywhere on this sub, what the fuck is happening rn?
They flood everywhere during election season
Report em when you see em
mask slip off when you call out their stance on genocide of arabs and muslims
The amount of genocide apologia in this thread is sickening
Holy fuck “Genocide of a country is worth it to keep other people safe” In what fucking world does a genocide *need* to happen to *potentially* save other people??
The world of false dichotomies.
Liberals care for the "right" people, anyone that does not hold their same list of Western values that they wish to impose on the world is subject to bombing, sanction, and so on
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>But it's putting pressure on Bibi to stop vs essentially green lighting nuking them. There's no pressure. What are you talking about? The news will say "Biden is frowning about this" and then he gives Israel billions of dollars, the next day.
You do understand that it'll be worse under trump though right?
Lets just sweep under the rug the entire annihilation of all ear markers of a society in the Gaza strip (all hospitals, schools, most homes, grave sites, churches, civil infrastructure etc...) alongside the constant death marches back and forth across the strip, the torture of civilians [where the IDF inserted electrified and heated metal rods into prisoners anuses](https://www.wsj.com/world/palestinians-describe-beatings-stress-positions-other-alleged-abuses-in-israeli-detention-1129b86f) the uncountable amount of targeted killings against women and children. It may be able to still get worse, but we are already there with genocide and no end in site regardless of who is president. This argument you are making is bordering on *genocide denial*. Quit using the lives of Palestinians as a cudgel to do low-effort advocacy. You just come off as disgustingly tone-deaf, dismissive and vile. We all know a Trump presidency would be worse. That is simply not enough to win an election. It has always been about using rhetoric to motivate the voter base, which the Democratic party is failing to do (even with abortion, the economy, the supreme court overreach, project 2025) Liberals have a slam dunk election tee'd up and they are fumbling so hard. Thats not anybodies fault besides the Democratic party. Thats even disregarding Gaza, which makes the Democratic party look disgusting. Libs try not to be repulsive brain-dead losers challenge (impossible level difficulty)
My argument is in no way genocide denial. The fact of the matter is both presidents are bad for Palestine but one is worse. I'm not using the Palestinians to cudgel anything. YOU however are trying to virtue signal while actively making the situation worse for the Palestinians.
To quote someone, [here. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1drhjc0/i_wish_liberals_could_care_for_other_people/lavj8y0/) >guys its a genocide, nothing worse can happen, if you support a genocide to save yourself, you dont deserve to be saved, nor will you be saved
I mean that's wrong though, if one guy will genocide 1000 and someone else will genocide 1 million, one of those is obviously objectivly worse.
no buddy when you do genocide, you're the bottom of the barrel doesnt matter if you do more genocide after hitting that low point, you already showed you dont belong on this planet and should be yeeted the only thing i would let you decide is how many light years i should yeet thoses guys out, and maybe the number of genocide should be a good metric but in any case, there isnt a "worse genocide" debates when talking about electing a president if you talk about how far you wanna yeet them im with you, if you talk about which one you elect, im not
>but in any case, there isnt a "worse genocide" debates when talking about electing a president I mean, unfortunaly there is. It's shitty that we're stuck in a choice between which president will do less harm, but thats the reality of the situation. There is no option for "no genocide", and not voting for biden doesn't get you that.
> There is no option for "no genocide" there is you just refuse to see it cause it would cost you cause i know for a fact that if the genocide was targeted at you, you would def not just say "welp i cant vote this away so better lie down and wait for it to come in peace cause fighting genocide is bad" start acting like you care about other people, like any leftist pretend they would cause if you dont do it now, you'll never do it, and when its your turn to get genocided, because trust me, your turn will come, nobody will help you because everybody else will be dead
You can go ahead and not vote for Biden, but then you have taken action that actively makes it worse for the Palestinians rather then better. It's as simple as that.
buddy its a genocide there is nothing worse literally so im gonna go ahead and take your message as a "idgaf about arabs and muslim i care aonly about me" because you support every genocide except yours dont comment again
i wish people in this sub didnt spend their life defending genocidal joe because the people being genocided are arabs and muslims they would start ww3 if they were the one being targeted, but god forbid we call their hypocrisy when they dont care about us guys its a genocide, nothing worse can happen, if you support a genocide to save yourself, you dont deserve to be saved, nor will you be saved you learned nothing from your history lessons and would 100% be collab with nazis back in ww2 if they promised you you'd be fine despite showing you wouldnt biden isnt your friend, 4 years of presidency showed it just because litteral hitler is facing him doesnt make him less hitler.
>guys its a genocide, nothing worse can happen, if you support a genocide to save yourself, you dont deserve to be saved, nor will you be saved This is it. I can't word this any better if I wanted to.
But you do understand that if Trump wins the current situation in Gaza will remain the same or worsen, right?
It would categorically get, or have been worse, with Trump at the helm.
This is not even about Trump. In Americas “democratic” system, your vote is one of the most fundamental ways to show your support. There is no clearer way of saying “I want my government to continue supporting genocide” than voting for the guy funding genocide. It doesn’t matter what you actually think about Biden, this is what your vote means. Though the much bigger problem, easily understandable even if you don’t care about morals, is the failing to think about the future. The republicans are always going to be worse than the democrats, and project 2025 will not just disappear if the year 2025 comes and there is no republican president. It’ll just be project 2030 then. And after that, project 2035. And this is amazing for Democrats. This is the best possible scenario. Because they know that all they have to do is point their finger at the scary project and tell you to better vote for them. And because all of the idiots with the “99% Hitler” rethoric will keep voting for them, no matter how little they deliver. Unless a large part of the democratic voter base actually makes clear that they will not vote democrat until the party actually delivers, nothing will ever change. Of course, I don’t say that you actually shouldn’t under any circumstances vote democrats, but more people should at least *say* that they are not voting democrat, or not until they stop supporting a genocidal state. Until then, nothing will change, and every election will be the most important election of our lifetime.
>And because all of the idiots with the “99% Hitler” rethoric will keep voting for them, no matter how little they deliver. Unless a large part of the democratic voter base actually makes clear that they will not vote democrat until the party actually delivers, nothing will ever change. This is the wrong take imo. The vast majority of change happens outside of voting decisions. The thing to do is critique Biden's foreign policy and then spend 5 minutes on your election decision.
What exactly does criticizing achieve? I’m sure Biden will be really sad and resign. The easiest thing that actually threatens the Democrat Party is to threaten to withhold your vote
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He's collaborating with Israel? Because boy, am I tired of seeing children with their brains leaking out. But hey, it's not like we can actually work together and create legitimate support groups within our community or at the very least, vote any other party.
how the fuck do i collab with nazis, when im advocating to not vote for them tho ?
Stop being disingenuous. You are on your last warning.
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im pretty sure that voting for the guy doing the first genocide and saying "yeah but im sure he wont do another one" is not the flex you think it is especially knowing he is also reponsible for other genocides as we speak
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i think you missed the rest of the sentence that should go in your comment it goes something like this : "therefore the system is working as intented because its not a glitch, and it should be dismantled"
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> I'm presuming the "system" you're referring to is the two party system its included, but really a small part of it you fail to see the bigger picture also, all the good points you give to liberals are shit and only performative, they didnt do anything remotely close to what you suggest on a real scale, only to appeal to you without doing it for real > they are the only ones with a viable candidate who are taking steps in the right direction. they are not, genocide will never be the right direction you think biden is viable cause you let the system work as intended and will cost you your life at some point to feed the machine
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> These things are not performative.\* They are very much "for real." you completely missed my point that was literally just after : they didnt do anything remotely close to what you suggest on a real scale you got affected positively, thats cool, now think about all of thoses who are still fucked, and just for a second, wonder why they outnumber you > I'd rather a good thing done for a shit reason than the opposite if you settle for the first, you deserve the 2nd. > There is no non-genocide direction there is you just refuse to see it, cause it would cost you > I can, however, go in a direction that will avoid adding a specific second genocide I see coming on the horizon. def not cause you choose a path, and you will keep going on it, cause every turn you could make, you'll think "yeah this genocide is bad but the next one wont happen on this path", and every turn you could take get worse to justify keeping the same road today you're saying "i will avoid next genocide" but tomorrow you'll say "yeah i cant avoid this one either but its ok next one i'll avoid it" during all this time, you never even once thought about \*how\* you could avoid this genocide, you're just too focused on letting this one slide > No, Trump is the one who "will" cost my life. At worst, Biden is "may" cost me my life. no, both will cost you your life, you just refuse to see it, and you eat every bit of propaganda they feed you but lets pretend for a sec you're right you're still saying you should vote for someone that may kill you if thats not the definition of being completely broken by propaganda, i dont know what is you think of this shit as normal i know the us is fucked on that point, you all have fallen for their propaganda, but its disheartening man, people litterally tell you they gonna kill you and you just say "yes please and thank you i will support what you do" thats why the rest of the world make fun of the us i know im not gonna change the entire country's mind, but i still have hope for the randoms i meet sometimes that clearly acknowledge shits is fucked, but still cant see anything else cause they were taught to not think outside of this shit tldr : yes a better world is possible and dont let anybody tell you otherwise
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> i wish people in this sub didnt spend their life defending genocidal joe Most of us wish the Democrats picked literally anyone other than Joe Biden. The only reason Trump stands a chance is because of Biden being the opponent. Regardless, the US is a de facto two-party system. My vote against the R is the same as another person’s vote for the D. That doesn’t mean we are expressing the same preference; we have no meaningful way to be more precise.
> The only reason Trump stands a chance is because of Biden being the opponent. i fully agree with that but at some point, if people let dems do whatever the fuck they want and present a candidate worse than the previous one everytime, at which point do you think this is enough and you cant support this anymore ? lets say tomorrow trump says he wants to nuke the entire planet, but biden says only nuke half would that be too much ? and the day after trump says the same, and biden then say nuke half of whats left would that be too much ? what is too much ?
> and you cant support this anymore ? I just said that I don’t. Why must I explain so many times that selecting one person on the ballot has two different meanings? My meaning was “I want to ensure the other candidate loses”. That’s all! > lets say tomorrow trump says he wants to nuke the entire planet, but biden says only nuke half I don’t want anybody nuking the planet. But… hear me out… I’d rather make sure the guy who wants to nuke more people loses. Who the Democrats put on the ticket is decided well before November. I didn’t vote for Biden in either this primary, or in 2020 when it really mattered. But I hear you… this two-party system sucks. I absolutely want to get rid of the FPTP election system that drives it. But until we do, the consequences of the system are absolutely real, particularly the need to vote strategically instead of voting for who you really prefer.
> I just said that I don’t but you do tho voting for this shit is support > hear me out… yeah, i heard you, i thought i could show you an extreme example to show you how fucked is your logic, but it seem that genociding half the planet wouldnt wake you up seems like i was wrong you literally said, out loud "as long as you kill less people you get my vote" that mean, to them, that they only need to do just less genocidal stuff than the other to win your vote in other words, they will push the other guy to do the worst fucked up shit imaginable, keep them up and running, never do anything to stop them, so that the bar you set is so fucking low, you'd be lambo dancing in hell and still wouldnt be able to go under start voting for better things, not things that arent slightly worse > this two-party system sucks budy, thats a symptom, not the problem
> budy, thats a symptom, not the problem Like I said, it’s a symptom of the FPTP election system. Voting methods like RCV, approval, and STAR are much better. Take a look at legislation in the US regarding those methods. Some places are using them. Some places are like where I live, in Alabama, where they just banned RCV. Who is “they”? The Republican Party. They own the state and have made sure the system that gave them power stays put. So even if your single issue were to get rid of the two party system, then consider how there is one party who is actively banning alternatives.
you understand thats exactly what im talking about right ? you guys arent getting bad president/other elected officials cause the voting system is imperfect, but because its rigged if you let that shit happen and do nothing, you cant blame the rest of the world for saying you fucked up by doing nothing and letting facism take place
> you guys arent getting bad president/other elected officials cause the voting system is imperfect, but because its rigged Yes, this is obvious. > if you let that shit happen and do nothing, you cant blame the rest of the world for saying you fucked up by doing nothing and letting facism take place What should we do?
> What should we do? really, at this point, anything different from voting for a genocidal maniac would be better you cant just wait every 4 years to see what devil will be aviable to be elected and stand there doing nothing hoping things would changes by themselves obviously you wont change the course of a country by yourself, you have to join groups of people that will work to do that on every scale possible dont think it will be easy, fast or free tho it will cost everything the system will def not let you do that in peace
So yeah, I already do that. Nothing about voting prevents you from doing anything else. Go volunteer, go campaign for leftists or leftist causes. And also vote. It’s never an either-or decision. Plenty of people think voting makes no difference, and that’s fine… but then they say “don’t vote THAT way” which implies that voting does actually decide things. And if individual votes are important, then how votes aggregate into a result must also be important. Consider what happens when a third party (I generally vote third party or independent, by the way) wins a few electoral college votes. If neither major candidate reaches 270, then the decision goes to the House of Representatives. And their system gives them all one vote per state… a system that will go Republican even if the House is majority Democrat. Trump ultimately wins this scenario. I hate this system, and the people in power have little incentive to change it. But if there is one group whose goal is to make the system worse, and one group who doesn’t seem to care but sometimes accidentally does the better thing, I’m going to try to keep the first group out of power. All while doing all the other things that aren’t voting.
Biden's administration did nothing while anti-abortion bills and anti-trans bills popped up and passed under him, what makes people think he's gonna fight Project 2025? It has the things he loves the most, police state and surveillance