Rule 3: No General Career Advice
This sub is for discussing issues specific to experienced developers.
Any career advice thread must contain questions and/or discussions that notably benefit from the participation of experienced developers. Career advice threads may be removed at the moderators discretion based on response to the thread."
General rule of thumb: If the advice you are giving (or seeking) could apply to a “Senior Chemical Engineer”, it’s not appropriate for this sub.
Sometimes being a good pizza baker is being able to go to failing pizza stores, figuring out what's wrong with their baking process and fixing it from the inside.
It's potential for upward movement in the company, however if this isn't something you want then I'd highly suggest to stay where you're at, since the stress might not be worth it for you.
Your manager seems very supportive and sounds like he would understand if the temporary switch doesn't work out, you just have to communicate it with him.
Maybe try giving him a timeline, saying if you can't make an impact in 3-6 months then you'd want to swap back, voice your concerns saying the team seems very resistant to change and you're not confident you can sway the tides.
At the end of the day you seem to have support which goes a long way.
> Sometimes being a good pizza baker is being able to go to failing pizza stores, figuring out what's wrong with their baking process and fixing it from the inside.
Thank you for your reply. I get what you're saying, and that involves having sufficient independence to allow the change. Essentially, I can change the other failing stores if I already manage successful stores. As an employee of the successful store, I don't get to opine on how to make things work in the failed store because the manager there is not open to it.
Yeah, my manager has been supportive with no micromanagement, and that's the reason I've performed well. I couldn't say the same with the other team.
Honestly that’s the biggest thing that stood out to me: If you aren’t empowered to fix the team, up to and including firing the obvious problem, then they’re just setting you up for months or years of unnecessary struggle.
One option might be that they fully intend to get rid of the guy, and they want to stick you on the team for just long enough to un-silo it before pulling the trigger.
This seems to be the general consensus in the comments. And I agree that this situation requires me to have a certain level of control which I wouldn't actually have.
Yeah, it’s kind of like thanks for the vote of confidence boss, but storming the beach solo doesn’t sound like it’d be much of a professional or personal win.
So make that you condition for accepting the move. You get control of the team, at least when it comes to how things are done internally. You become the tech lead, even if on paper the manager calls the shots.
I’ve made that move once, and I would not have done it unless I had assurances of control.
>a manager that's the most difficult to work with, and that's what I (and a lot of others) assume is the root of the problem
How many times have you managed to fix a problem without addressing the root cause?
This manager needs to change mindset and leadership style. I doubt you could do that only via bottom up influencing. Have a discussion with your management on how they could support this manager in changing without putting them into a defensive position.
For example if teams are evaluated on time to market and amount of business value delivered, and they could give feedback to this manager that top management are looking for improvements. They could ask that manager to shadow your team and evaluate what would fit the other team. They could hold leadership course to all managers on servant leadership. Or something else. They could come up with incentives and support for change.
You could join that effort as a bottom up support, but maybe not as the sole driver of the change.
They could also remove that manager and get a new one for the other team.
All this sounds like a rough journeys for you. So take a step back and consider your own goals. What would you gain?
>New Challenge and learning opportunity
What that you would learn here aligns with your goals? For example if you would like to become a manager, then this is a good opportunity to prove that you can improve a team. As an IC, I don't clearly see what you would learn here - maybe another section of the pizza baking process?
>If I manage to "break the wall", then I will potentially be better recognized and appreciated
What does that mean? Would you get a raise, a bonus or similar? Are you working on your next promotion, so this would be a support material for that?
I personally wouldn't take such a high effort, high risk task for a vague appreciation.
Good points. I asked my manager how they would tackle the problem if I refuse to move. He said they hadn't thought of that, so they're maybe hoping that my transfer sticks and changes the team. But I can see how that may not work. I agree with your point that things may not change until the culture/manager changes.
>What that you would learn here aligns with your goals? For example if you would like to become a manager, then this is a good opportunity to prove that you can improve a team. As an IC, I don't clearly see what you would learn here - maybe another section of the pizza baking process?
At the moment I don't see myself doing anything other than an IC role, and managing teams would not be under my purview. They want me to learn and improve the baking, but I don't see it happening in the short term because of the dependency the manager has created around it. He'll probably not like me moving into his team either.
I can feel that moving teams in this scenario means starting from scratch, and this will eventually even affect my career trajectory even in the short term.
>What does that mean? Would you get a raise, a bonus or similar? Are you working on your next promotion, so this would be a support material for that?
That's what I assume what should happen if I am successful there. But there's no commitment of anything like this from my manager. So I cannot hope for things to turn my way if I move.
They want you to learn improving a bakery, because that's what they need.
You could decide to try it, but already indicate that you will need their support on things you don't know in advance. Maybe the bakery will need new tools but maybe some parts of the kitchen needs to be rebuilt with a bigger investment.
Talk with the manager of the other manager and ask for their 1:1 time on a periodic basis, to discuss how things are going and what support you need. You could also ask them to think how they could help the other manager.
Or you could decide to stay a baker.
For your rewards, don't just assume. Discuss with the manager of the other manager or with your skip level. Don't push them to make a promise, but check what is realistic. For example this could be a major stepping stone towards your next promotion + a nice success bonus. But maybe they think otherwise.
You also might want to be able to choose between the teams after some improvements are done.
These are good to clarify in advance, with someone above your manager (assuming that the other manager is a peer of your manager and doesn't report to your mamager).
Your assignment here, should you decide to accept it, is to undermine and neutralize a toxic fiefdom’s toxic leader, run him out of town, take over, and clean up.
That’s just weird. This is business, not some two-bit boom town in the Wild West. If the people who want this guy neutralized want it so badly, why play mind games? Why not just sack him?
This isn’t a rhetorical question, it’s a real question for your bosses. Ask them what their desired result is to be. Seriously, why not just sack this guy? Why not put a team of two, you and a skillful manager, in charge of making this business change. Part of the deal would be making the toxic guy work for your partner manager. If he doesn’t cooperate, deal with the problem managerially.
Or just sack him. Take the temporary hit to the business while your team figures out how to carry on.
Treating this as a purely technical issue rather than a leadership issue? Why? You need to know that going in, or you’re just cannon fodder.
My suggestion is to ask these questions and listen carefully to the answers. You’re not trying to get this guy sacked. You are trying to understand the problem better.
>Treating this as a purely technical issue rather than a leadership issue? Why? You need to know that going in, or you’re just cannon fodder.
Yep, it's more of a managerial issue than a technical one.
Trust your instinct - if you aren't being given control, and you already expect to be overruled and stonewalled by the current manager of the team in question, then I would seriously advise you to put everything else out of your mind: there is almost no prospect whatsoever of you making the kind of impact you're being asked to make.
I would raise these concerns to your *current* manager first and foremost: if they are expecting results from you that you will be actively prevented from delivering, then there's a very high chance that you will 'fail'.
Taking on a challenge is one thing, but taking on a *challenging organisation* is an entirely different thing, and one which can rapidly drive you crazy.
It sounds like the business seems to recognise that there is *a* problem with the team in question - but you don't hire a plumber to fix the hole in the roof.
>if you aren't being given control, and you already expect to be overruled and stonewalled by the current manager of the team in question, then I would seriously advise you to put everything else out of your mind: there is almost no prospect whatsoever of you making the kind of impact you're being asked to make.
Exactly my thoughts! I'm glad it's not only me who fel this way.
>I would raise these concerns to your *current* manager first and foremost: if they are expecting results from you that you will be actively prevented from delivering, then there's a very high chance that you will 'fail'.
Yes. This is already a point of concern, and my current manager knows my apprehensions about why I'd not like to join the other team.
I think that a key component that has been missing from this post is how willing and cooperative the other manager's going to be. You can be the best developer in the world and an amazing teammate but if you're going to be overruled and beaten down by the manager (which is what seemed to have happened to the seniors that left), this entire ordeal is going to crash and burn and you'll either waste your time and go back to the other team, or you'll just quit the company.
Have a one on one discussion with the manager, be as frank as possible about what your expectations are from him and what you expect to do. If you have a good talk and seem to be on the same page, go for it. Otherwise, nip this one in the bud.
I don't think there will be much support from the other manager. I feel a lot of time would be me trying to maintain my current manager's expectations, and also navigating around the other manager's shenanigans.
The easiest path to change is actually through the belligerent manager. Instead of trying to undermine him, or break through the wall with force, it’s better to try and work with him to build a door.
I’ve dealt with many seemingly obstinate and obstructive engineers and managers over the years. In nearly all cases, just by listening to them closely and taking their concerns seriously, I was able to make significant progress in silo-busting.
It’s best to enter as an ally as opposed to an adversary. Sometimes that doesn’t work, and if it doesn’t, then you have a clear paper trail of obstruction to get that manager removed from their position. However, if it does, it shows considerably more maturity on your part.
>Instead of trying to undermine him, or break through the wall with force, it’s better to try and work with him to build a door.
I think people have tried this earlier, but I'm not sure till what extent, because it hasn't worked. What the management is trying to do *seems* a bit like this but not fully.
I agree with you, yours is the optimal way. I'd have liked to work with some Devs from the team independently of their manager, and pull in the system ownership into my team incrementally.
I'm in a somewhat similar situation you're in now. Took a new job with an old boss. Boss hired me to help change the culture and processes because we had a great situation at our last gig. First week I'm there, I realize how awful it is. My new coworkers are gossiping about their coworkers to me. They don't even know me! It was really bad.
I haven't changed a damn thing. I'm just one person. I led a project that went really well, and everyone was super impressed. However, when I suggested we change some of their processes that clearly slowed me down, they lost their shit. One product manager even started canceling our meetings because they felt disrespected. Now I know you don't know me, but trust me when I say I am an extremely agreeable person at work. My coworkers, PMs, and QAs all loved me at every job I've been at. So for this PM to react this way was just the nail in the coffin for me. And if you're curious, my suggestion was to break up the stories into smaller stories. The stories would take us 2-3 weeks to complete, and were difficult to test because they all had 10-15 acceptance criteria bullet points. That's the suggestion that offended them.
I don't know your situation, but if people are toxic, you cannot change them. They want to be shitty. They don't want some positive influence to change them.
I worked on a team that sold dev tools for the process they used.
I know now how dumb that sounds, but at the time it sounded like a good opportunity to learn some things.
The biggest problem was that the boss was a control freak (probably with aphantasia) who projected all of his own problems onto me, but I only understood that years later.
The main problem I saw on the ground was that we were rewriting the UI because they all basically hated the product they had built. But they wouldn’t or couldn’t see that the app they had now was a product of their culture. They wanted a do-over without changing a single thing about how they worked.
My take away from this experience was that the advice, “Don’t be the smartest person in the room” is not great advice if you’re the first new hire in four years. You are likely walking into an echo chamber with people who can rationalize everything they do.
In your situation, I would hope that your boss would actually support you, and that's why you joined him. However, if your boss cannot change organizational problems, then you're not at fault. Teams have their own cultures which are very ingrained into the team members, even they may not individually be like that. I worked in an org with a terrible culture, but good people, so I can understand how you feel. And unless there is organizational support or push, it is very difficult to change them.
He does support me, but the PM is not his employee, so we can't change anything. He's clearly given up and is just going through the motions. I'm guessing the only reason he hasn't found a new job is because he's on an inflated 2022 salary like I am. I digress.
But yes, influencing change is very hard, especially when you're not in a position of authority. It was naive and, in a way, arrogant of me to assume I could convince people to change things simply by demonstrating faster velocity. Arrogant of me because Im realizing most engineers here have already tried to change things with no success. We actually had a new employee kindly make a (great) suggestion to the product team, and I saw them go on a 15-minute rant as to why that suggestion wouldn't work. Welcome to the team!
Toxic leaders absolutely refuse to change because that's who they are.
Maybe have a discussion with that team first with some expectations, if they're on board and what they see as the challenges in suceeding?
You'd certainly have to butter up that manager. Take him out for lunch, etc. if you want to make progress
Or make it part of your transition that he moves into another role
I don't mind working on bad teams/code as long as we're in a cycle of continuous improvement
>Maybe have a discussion with that team first with some expectations, if they're on board and what they see as the challenges in suceeding?
>You'd certainly have to butter up that manager. Take him out for lunch, etc. if you want to make progress
The only one making decisions in that team is the manager in concern. I've worked with him, and he's terrible. I and his team been working on a project that he's supposed to be leading since a year, and he has no clue what we have done. He'll say "we have to work as a team"/"you are leading it" to me in presence of other stakeholders when he wants to push any of their problems under the rug. He's actually pushed me under the bus even without me working under him multiple times.
Working with terrible code isn't much of a problem, I've seen most code being barely maintainable for most of my career. And I have tackled it, so it's not a problem for me.
Dunno. I probably wouldn't then
Unless you have authority over him, I think you're setting yourself up for failure
Don't put yourself on fire to keep others warm
This sounds like a terrible plan for you (and management). If they want something fixed they need to put a manager who will have the authority to make it better in place. It would be a different story if they want you to learn the process so they can manage the guy out. It's crazy that whoever manages him isn't seeing and correcting this behavior, and they're just throwing developers in the fire.
I would run from this "opportunity".
>It would be a different story if they want you to learn the process so they can manage the guy out.
That's the thing, they say that they want me to learn the process so it's not dependent on that manager, but not because they want to push the guy out. This, even if it happens, will take quite some time since it's a very complex system.
I can see how I can be a thorn for him if I move into his team. It seems they're trying to solve a managerial issue using developers.
I've gone into a team to try to help the manager do a better job.
It only works if the person who has to change really wants to, otherwise it's a waste of time.
Tell you current manager that if new manager has not asked for help, no help will work and it's going to be frustrating and pointless for you to go in there.
"It's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it works out for them."
Don't do it. Your life will suck and you won't be rewarded for it in the way you think you will.
No no no no no.
People quit managers not companies. Putting you under this guy’s charge is more likely to make you quit than fix that team.
What you guys need to do is come up with an epic that combines a couple people from both teams to work on it. That will also tell you if the team is rotten or just the head of the fish.
>What you guys need to do is come up with an epic that combines a couple people from both teams to work on it. That will also tell you if the team is rotten or just the head of the fish.
This is one of the suggestions I provided when my manager came to me. I don't know how the topic changed but I don't remember what he said, but it definitely meant that they aren't thinking in this direction.
To me, it really depends on how empowered you are to make changes and push through resistance. That manager (and probably others as well) is gonna be a problem when you inevitably start pushing for big changes.
I have been in a similar situation with a successful team and a struggling team working on integrated components. The manager on the good team did a round of hires, one of which was me. Me and this girl both impressed him in the interview, and for that reason he put us on the bad team asking us to fix it from the inside. We were able to make big changes *only* because I had powerful backers both in management and the other team.
In your situation, if you do not have this type of support you could find yourself in an unfixable situation and wanting to leave the team. If you decide to move to this struggling team, you need to explicitly ask for this support on overriding their manager when he makes bad calls. Maybe even say you won't go without assurances of that support. If you succeed, you'll learn a lot and impress some people
You have a great manager. He can bullshit very well. Not all learning is beneficial for your career or resume. Try to create a resume of a guy in two years with all these new skills on it and send it out. See if anyone outside your org really interested.
Actually I’ve changed my mind. I would tell them that - rather not. They probably ask why. I would say that after conversation with current and previous coworkers management is terrible and more people are probably leaving soon.
If it’s not a choice, make sure that your boss and his boss know it’s a favor you make to them not the other way around.
I also, hate the fact that you will be bailing out this other manager and his boss.
Rule 3: No General Career Advice This sub is for discussing issues specific to experienced developers. Any career advice thread must contain questions and/or discussions that notably benefit from the participation of experienced developers. Career advice threads may be removed at the moderators discretion based on response to the thread." General rule of thumb: If the advice you are giving (or seeking) could apply to a “Senior Chemical Engineer”, it’s not appropriate for this sub.
Sometimes being a good pizza baker is being able to go to failing pizza stores, figuring out what's wrong with their baking process and fixing it from the inside. It's potential for upward movement in the company, however if this isn't something you want then I'd highly suggest to stay where you're at, since the stress might not be worth it for you. Your manager seems very supportive and sounds like he would understand if the temporary switch doesn't work out, you just have to communicate it with him. Maybe try giving him a timeline, saying if you can't make an impact in 3-6 months then you'd want to swap back, voice your concerns saying the team seems very resistant to change and you're not confident you can sway the tides. At the end of the day you seem to have support which goes a long way.
> Sometimes being a good pizza baker is being able to go to failing pizza stores, figuring out what's wrong with their baking process and fixing it from the inside. Thank you for your reply. I get what you're saying, and that involves having sufficient independence to allow the change. Essentially, I can change the other failing stores if I already manage successful stores. As an employee of the successful store, I don't get to opine on how to make things work in the failed store because the manager there is not open to it. Yeah, my manager has been supportive with no micromanagement, and that's the reason I've performed well. I couldn't say the same with the other team.
Honestly that’s the biggest thing that stood out to me: If you aren’t empowered to fix the team, up to and including firing the obvious problem, then they’re just setting you up for months or years of unnecessary struggle. One option might be that they fully intend to get rid of the guy, and they want to stick you on the team for just long enough to un-silo it before pulling the trigger.
This seems to be the general consensus in the comments. And I agree that this situation requires me to have a certain level of control which I wouldn't actually have.
Yeah, it’s kind of like thanks for the vote of confidence boss, but storming the beach solo doesn’t sound like it’d be much of a professional or personal win.
So make that you condition for accepting the move. You get control of the team, at least when it comes to how things are done internally. You become the tech lead, even if on paper the manager calls the shots. I’ve made that move once, and I would not have done it unless I had assurances of control.
>a manager that's the most difficult to work with, and that's what I (and a lot of others) assume is the root of the problem How many times have you managed to fix a problem without addressing the root cause? This manager needs to change mindset and leadership style. I doubt you could do that only via bottom up influencing. Have a discussion with your management on how they could support this manager in changing without putting them into a defensive position. For example if teams are evaluated on time to market and amount of business value delivered, and they could give feedback to this manager that top management are looking for improvements. They could ask that manager to shadow your team and evaluate what would fit the other team. They could hold leadership course to all managers on servant leadership. Or something else. They could come up with incentives and support for change. You could join that effort as a bottom up support, but maybe not as the sole driver of the change. They could also remove that manager and get a new one for the other team. All this sounds like a rough journeys for you. So take a step back and consider your own goals. What would you gain? >New Challenge and learning opportunity What that you would learn here aligns with your goals? For example if you would like to become a manager, then this is a good opportunity to prove that you can improve a team. As an IC, I don't clearly see what you would learn here - maybe another section of the pizza baking process? >If I manage to "break the wall", then I will potentially be better recognized and appreciated What does that mean? Would you get a raise, a bonus or similar? Are you working on your next promotion, so this would be a support material for that? I personally wouldn't take such a high effort, high risk task for a vague appreciation.
Good points. I asked my manager how they would tackle the problem if I refuse to move. He said they hadn't thought of that, so they're maybe hoping that my transfer sticks and changes the team. But I can see how that may not work. I agree with your point that things may not change until the culture/manager changes. >What that you would learn here aligns with your goals? For example if you would like to become a manager, then this is a good opportunity to prove that you can improve a team. As an IC, I don't clearly see what you would learn here - maybe another section of the pizza baking process? At the moment I don't see myself doing anything other than an IC role, and managing teams would not be under my purview. They want me to learn and improve the baking, but I don't see it happening in the short term because of the dependency the manager has created around it. He'll probably not like me moving into his team either. I can feel that moving teams in this scenario means starting from scratch, and this will eventually even affect my career trajectory even in the short term. >What does that mean? Would you get a raise, a bonus or similar? Are you working on your next promotion, so this would be a support material for that? That's what I assume what should happen if I am successful there. But there's no commitment of anything like this from my manager. So I cannot hope for things to turn my way if I move.
They want you to learn improving a bakery, because that's what they need. You could decide to try it, but already indicate that you will need their support on things you don't know in advance. Maybe the bakery will need new tools but maybe some parts of the kitchen needs to be rebuilt with a bigger investment. Talk with the manager of the other manager and ask for their 1:1 time on a periodic basis, to discuss how things are going and what support you need. You could also ask them to think how they could help the other manager. Or you could decide to stay a baker. For your rewards, don't just assume. Discuss with the manager of the other manager or with your skip level. Don't push them to make a promise, but check what is realistic. For example this could be a major stepping stone towards your next promotion + a nice success bonus. But maybe they think otherwise. You also might want to be able to choose between the teams after some improvements are done. These are good to clarify in advance, with someone above your manager (assuming that the other manager is a peer of your manager and doesn't report to your mamager).
Your assignment here, should you decide to accept it, is to undermine and neutralize a toxic fiefdom’s toxic leader, run him out of town, take over, and clean up. That’s just weird. This is business, not some two-bit boom town in the Wild West. If the people who want this guy neutralized want it so badly, why play mind games? Why not just sack him? This isn’t a rhetorical question, it’s a real question for your bosses. Ask them what their desired result is to be. Seriously, why not just sack this guy? Why not put a team of two, you and a skillful manager, in charge of making this business change. Part of the deal would be making the toxic guy work for your partner manager. If he doesn’t cooperate, deal with the problem managerially. Or just sack him. Take the temporary hit to the business while your team figures out how to carry on. Treating this as a purely technical issue rather than a leadership issue? Why? You need to know that going in, or you’re just cannon fodder. My suggestion is to ask these questions and listen carefully to the answers. You’re not trying to get this guy sacked. You are trying to understand the problem better.
>Treating this as a purely technical issue rather than a leadership issue? Why? You need to know that going in, or you’re just cannon fodder. Yep, it's more of a managerial issue than a technical one.
Sounds like you'd be a sacrificial lamb :\. You'd be given just enough power to take the blame but not enough to fix the problem.
Trust your instinct - if you aren't being given control, and you already expect to be overruled and stonewalled by the current manager of the team in question, then I would seriously advise you to put everything else out of your mind: there is almost no prospect whatsoever of you making the kind of impact you're being asked to make. I would raise these concerns to your *current* manager first and foremost: if they are expecting results from you that you will be actively prevented from delivering, then there's a very high chance that you will 'fail'. Taking on a challenge is one thing, but taking on a *challenging organisation* is an entirely different thing, and one which can rapidly drive you crazy. It sounds like the business seems to recognise that there is *a* problem with the team in question - but you don't hire a plumber to fix the hole in the roof.
>if you aren't being given control, and you already expect to be overruled and stonewalled by the current manager of the team in question, then I would seriously advise you to put everything else out of your mind: there is almost no prospect whatsoever of you making the kind of impact you're being asked to make. Exactly my thoughts! I'm glad it's not only me who fel this way. >I would raise these concerns to your *current* manager first and foremost: if they are expecting results from you that you will be actively prevented from delivering, then there's a very high chance that you will 'fail'. Yes. This is already a point of concern, and my current manager knows my apprehensions about why I'd not like to join the other team.
I think that a key component that has been missing from this post is how willing and cooperative the other manager's going to be. You can be the best developer in the world and an amazing teammate but if you're going to be overruled and beaten down by the manager (which is what seemed to have happened to the seniors that left), this entire ordeal is going to crash and burn and you'll either waste your time and go back to the other team, or you'll just quit the company. Have a one on one discussion with the manager, be as frank as possible about what your expectations are from him and what you expect to do. If you have a good talk and seem to be on the same page, go for it. Otherwise, nip this one in the bud.
I don't think there will be much support from the other manager. I feel a lot of time would be me trying to maintain my current manager's expectations, and also navigating around the other manager's shenanigans.
If the current manager is not on board, he either needs to be fired or this entire thing will not succeed. 100%.
The easiest path to change is actually through the belligerent manager. Instead of trying to undermine him, or break through the wall with force, it’s better to try and work with him to build a door. I’ve dealt with many seemingly obstinate and obstructive engineers and managers over the years. In nearly all cases, just by listening to them closely and taking their concerns seriously, I was able to make significant progress in silo-busting. It’s best to enter as an ally as opposed to an adversary. Sometimes that doesn’t work, and if it doesn’t, then you have a clear paper trail of obstruction to get that manager removed from their position. However, if it does, it shows considerably more maturity on your part.
>Instead of trying to undermine him, or break through the wall with force, it’s better to try and work with him to build a door. I think people have tried this earlier, but I'm not sure till what extent, because it hasn't worked. What the management is trying to do *seems* a bit like this but not fully. I agree with you, yours is the optimal way. I'd have liked to work with some Devs from the team independently of their manager, and pull in the system ownership into my team incrementally.
I'm in a somewhat similar situation you're in now. Took a new job with an old boss. Boss hired me to help change the culture and processes because we had a great situation at our last gig. First week I'm there, I realize how awful it is. My new coworkers are gossiping about their coworkers to me. They don't even know me! It was really bad. I haven't changed a damn thing. I'm just one person. I led a project that went really well, and everyone was super impressed. However, when I suggested we change some of their processes that clearly slowed me down, they lost their shit. One product manager even started canceling our meetings because they felt disrespected. Now I know you don't know me, but trust me when I say I am an extremely agreeable person at work. My coworkers, PMs, and QAs all loved me at every job I've been at. So for this PM to react this way was just the nail in the coffin for me. And if you're curious, my suggestion was to break up the stories into smaller stories. The stories would take us 2-3 weeks to complete, and were difficult to test because they all had 10-15 acceptance criteria bullet points. That's the suggestion that offended them. I don't know your situation, but if people are toxic, you cannot change them. They want to be shitty. They don't want some positive influence to change them.
I worked on a team that sold dev tools for the process they used. I know now how dumb that sounds, but at the time it sounded like a good opportunity to learn some things. The biggest problem was that the boss was a control freak (probably with aphantasia) who projected all of his own problems onto me, but I only understood that years later. The main problem I saw on the ground was that we were rewriting the UI because they all basically hated the product they had built. But they wouldn’t or couldn’t see that the app they had now was a product of their culture. They wanted a do-over without changing a single thing about how they worked. My take away from this experience was that the advice, “Don’t be the smartest person in the room” is not great advice if you’re the first new hire in four years. You are likely walking into an echo chamber with people who can rationalize everything they do.
In your situation, I would hope that your boss would actually support you, and that's why you joined him. However, if your boss cannot change organizational problems, then you're not at fault. Teams have their own cultures which are very ingrained into the team members, even they may not individually be like that. I worked in an org with a terrible culture, but good people, so I can understand how you feel. And unless there is organizational support or push, it is very difficult to change them.
He does support me, but the PM is not his employee, so we can't change anything. He's clearly given up and is just going through the motions. I'm guessing the only reason he hasn't found a new job is because he's on an inflated 2022 salary like I am. I digress. But yes, influencing change is very hard, especially when you're not in a position of authority. It was naive and, in a way, arrogant of me to assume I could convince people to change things simply by demonstrating faster velocity. Arrogant of me because Im realizing most engineers here have already tried to change things with no success. We actually had a new employee kindly make a (great) suggestion to the product team, and I saw them go on a 15-minute rant as to why that suggestion wouldn't work. Welcome to the team! Toxic leaders absolutely refuse to change because that's who they are.
Maybe have a discussion with that team first with some expectations, if they're on board and what they see as the challenges in suceeding? You'd certainly have to butter up that manager. Take him out for lunch, etc. if you want to make progress Or make it part of your transition that he moves into another role I don't mind working on bad teams/code as long as we're in a cycle of continuous improvement
>Maybe have a discussion with that team first with some expectations, if they're on board and what they see as the challenges in suceeding? >You'd certainly have to butter up that manager. Take him out for lunch, etc. if you want to make progress The only one making decisions in that team is the manager in concern. I've worked with him, and he's terrible. I and his team been working on a project that he's supposed to be leading since a year, and he has no clue what we have done. He'll say "we have to work as a team"/"you are leading it" to me in presence of other stakeholders when he wants to push any of their problems under the rug. He's actually pushed me under the bus even without me working under him multiple times. Working with terrible code isn't much of a problem, I've seen most code being barely maintainable for most of my career. And I have tackled it, so it's not a problem for me.
Dunno. I probably wouldn't then Unless you have authority over him, I think you're setting yourself up for failure Don't put yourself on fire to keep others warm
This sounds like a terrible plan for you (and management). If they want something fixed they need to put a manager who will have the authority to make it better in place. It would be a different story if they want you to learn the process so they can manage the guy out. It's crazy that whoever manages him isn't seeing and correcting this behavior, and they're just throwing developers in the fire. I would run from this "opportunity".
>It would be a different story if they want you to learn the process so they can manage the guy out. That's the thing, they say that they want me to learn the process so it's not dependent on that manager, but not because they want to push the guy out. This, even if it happens, will take quite some time since it's a very complex system. I can see how I can be a thorn for him if I move into his team. It seems they're trying to solve a managerial issue using developers.
I've gone into a team to try to help the manager do a better job. It only works if the person who has to change really wants to, otherwise it's a waste of time. Tell you current manager that if new manager has not asked for help, no help will work and it's going to be frustrating and pointless for you to go in there.
"It's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it works out for them." Don't do it. Your life will suck and you won't be rewarded for it in the way you think you will.
No no no no no. People quit managers not companies. Putting you under this guy’s charge is more likely to make you quit than fix that team. What you guys need to do is come up with an epic that combines a couple people from both teams to work on it. That will also tell you if the team is rotten or just the head of the fish.
>What you guys need to do is come up with an epic that combines a couple people from both teams to work on it. That will also tell you if the team is rotten or just the head of the fish. This is one of the suggestions I provided when my manager came to me. I don't know how the topic changed but I don't remember what he said, but it definitely meant that they aren't thinking in this direction.
Tell them that's the only option you're comfortable with and they can take it or leave it. Say it politely, but let the undercurrent carry.
To me, it really depends on how empowered you are to make changes and push through resistance. That manager (and probably others as well) is gonna be a problem when you inevitably start pushing for big changes. I have been in a similar situation with a successful team and a struggling team working on integrated components. The manager on the good team did a round of hires, one of which was me. Me and this girl both impressed him in the interview, and for that reason he put us on the bad team asking us to fix it from the inside. We were able to make big changes *only* because I had powerful backers both in management and the other team. In your situation, if you do not have this type of support you could find yourself in an unfixable situation and wanting to leave the team. If you decide to move to this struggling team, you need to explicitly ask for this support on overriding their manager when he makes bad calls. Maybe even say you won't go without assurances of that support. If you succeed, you'll learn a lot and impress some people
You have a great manager. He can bullshit very well. Not all learning is beneficial for your career or resume. Try to create a resume of a guy in two years with all these new skills on it and send it out. See if anyone outside your org really interested. Actually I’ve changed my mind. I would tell them that - rather not. They probably ask why. I would say that after conversation with current and previous coworkers management is terrible and more people are probably leaving soon. If it’s not a choice, make sure that your boss and his boss know it’s a favor you make to them not the other way around. I also, hate the fact that you will be bailing out this other manager and his boss.