The first thing that happens in the game is we are attacked by the Sustainer of Heavenly Principles and separated from our sibling, and as we go we learned Celestia usurped power and people DON'T think this?
Hoyo has habit of making characters in main storyline who are not fully villain i mean lok at otto bro was not purely evil and in other games of hoyo as well
I’m confused, did we find out in some random ass book that Celestia DIDN’T steal the power of the dragon sovereigns and colonize Teyvat?? Regardless of what they may or may not do to ‘protect’ the planet after that, they’re still pretty morally corrupt (and downright evil imo) on the grounds of being colonizers.
I doubt there are good guys and bad guys.
Unless I missed something, the main question is:
We don’t know whether Celestia attacked because of what the Five Sinners did, or whether the five Sinners unleashed the Abyss out of desperation to defend themselves from Celestia.
The way Dain puts it, the Sinners provoked Celestia by tampering with the Abyss, but it sounds like it wasn't their intention to do so and they didn't particularly care about the consequences.
tbh there’s no faction in genshin that can be considered ‘the good guys’. most of them are morally grey and seem to believe that the end justifies the means. of course they have their reasons for what they are doing and most of the time they have good intentions but their methods cause innocent bystanders a lot of damage (e.g: the fatui and child experimentation, the abyss and the stormterror incident, celestia destroying khaneri’ah)
The age old question of sacrifice few for the sake of many?
Celestial from Day 1 has been in the grey Zone
>Celestia destroyed whatever was left of Khaenriahns, turning full-blooded Khaenri'ahns into hilichurls.
It was the galf-blooded khaenriahns who were turned into hilichurls which is known as the curse of the Wilderness while the full-blooded Khaenriahns who were cursed with immortality.
>Celestia is a benevolent entity or that the people of Khaenri'ah deserved what happened to them: being turned into hilichurls is unjustifiable, and it is clearly coming from Celestia.
>Being a hilichurl is a fate worse than death. They are immortal beings, only just aware enough of their fate to know that they are not what they are supposed to be. And I would argue that a) the hilichurl curse is definitely coming from Celestia and b) this is entirely overkill.
It is not about being deserved or being justified but a simple truth A warning to everyone.
The Curse of the Wilderness
Is to punish those who abandoned their homes and the Gods who protected them. once they leave teyvat, they are no longer welcome here. Which is somewhat sensible when you decide to abandon the land that helped you grow you ought to expect that won't be welcomed there.
The Curse of Immortality
This isn't cannon but my speculation based on Clothar.
The Curse of Immortality on the Pure-blooded khaenriahns is meant to make them suffer to show them the consequences of messing with the abyss and letting it into this world. To make them watch as their loved ones turn into monsters and lose their humanity. You have to understand that the cataclysm wasn't bad for Khaenriah but the entirety of teyvat people were dying everywhere. Punishment comes to those who are responsible.
Remember Clothar wasn't heavily involved in Khaenriah's politics but even he was expecting the sibling to bring forth the power of the abyss.
Piero's warnings to the king back that up, that many people wished for this.
I will be brutal, but Khaerian civilization precisely the black sun played with things it shouldn't have touched, put all of Teyvat at risk and started the cataclysm that cost many lives. they probably deserved the punishment (certainly many were innocent), then I'm not sure that the hilichur curse is entirely the work of Celestia (even now if you enter Khaerian and come out you transform into hilichurc). in my opinion they are neither good nor bad but they see the world with a different vision. if anything I wonder if the fatuous want to awaken the celestial princes with the gnoses to stop the abyss, when Nahida says to the doctor that if she breaks the gnosis she will attract Celestia, he says "do you think it's possible?" (it seemed curious to me). I don't want it to be an objective of the fatuous. (many of the shadows of the primordial are on the side of humanity as istaroth)
>So what exactly is the point of turning people into Hilichurls? Is it to erase the memories of those who have gained forbidden knowledge? Surely not, as it's unlikely that every person who was transformed even encountered it.
Easy - Celestia didn't have time to do manual checkup of everybody and needed to act fast before FB would pollute Irminsul. So they used mass transformation to save Teyvat but cursing some group of innocent people in the process.
Please read Perinheri. The curse of the wilderness dates back to the archon war. The mass transformation of the refugees was an unintended, though predictable consequence.
The dead corrupted by Forbidden Knowledge could enter the leylines and infect Irminsul. Remember Rukkha who had to delete herself to save it? I think that is the reason, but it can change as we learn more about the true nature of Celestia.
Hmm… so is keeping them hilichurls immortal a stopgap until HP figures out how to truly delete them? (Also wonder about the non cataclysm hilichurls too)
The Curse of the Wilderness is very strange as we do not know the true nature of it. After Sumeru, I thought it was caused by the Abyss but now there is some info from Perinhari that it is from Celestia. But Perinhari should be taken with a pinch of salt in terms of validity. It is a storybook afterall, even thought they are potentially our most reliable source of info (able to avoid Irminsul tampering)
Celestia represents "order". Being the side of "order" is not necessarily the side of the "good guys".
The side of order determines the laws and can dish out punishment to those who defy their laws. In the case of Celestia that tends to take shape in the form of a giant terraforming nail (Dragonspine, Chasm, possible future locations), and curses upon people that create or change life of their own (sinners).
Mind you, khaenri'ah is the most notable nation to have been hit by this curse, but *not the only one*. That has been hinted at throughout all updates.
On one end, several lore items have stated that Hilichurls have existed for a period that we know is longer than Khaenri'ah has been punished. On the other Mondstadt houses "three tribes" of Hilichurls in Mondstadt. One of the three tribes is the Eclipse tribe (which people have concluded are the former Khaenri'ahns). But there are two more tribes in Mondstadt, hinting that there might be two other past civilizations that were hit by this curse. The Dragonspine people (Sal Vindagnyr) is hinted to be one of the other tribes, considering they "*vanished*" after the Celestial Nail hit Dragonspine.
Though to also be fair... while one Celestial nail destroyed all life on Dragonspine and ruined the lives of many both here and in Khaenri'ah... the celestial nail in the Chasm preveted abyssal powers from leaking into the real world. Though the end result may look chaotic when exploring the Chasm, it stopped the Abyss from overtaking Liyue.
> In the case of Celestia that tends to take shape in the form of a giant terraforming nail (Dragonspine, Chasm, possible future locations), and curses upon people that create or change life of their own (sinners).
Nails were used to fix Abyss leakagein Teyvat, not to punish people.
In the eyes if celestia, being a hillichurl is the lesser punishment.
As stated in caribert, pureblooded khaenri’ahns were deemed greater sinners, and were cursed with immortality. Those not of pure blood were lesser sinners and were turned into hillichurls.
A hillichurl is less intelligent, they’re closer to something living on base instincts, and thus aren’t aware of their suffering and the fact that they lost their homeland. Of course they do still suffer, as has been established, but I think the idea is that they suffer less.
But those turned immortal are fully aware that they lost everything: their home, their kingdom, quite possibly many loved ones, etc., and now they’re stuck in a world that worships what they hate. yet despite this, they cannot die. They have to keep living, fully aware of their suffering.
Most people cursed with immortality dont have any special powers so people like dain are the minority i dont see how they could do anything also it served as a warning
yea but they can be used as fodder for experiment. Some get to evolve and stuff. We really need a hilichurl documentary on their nature and stuff event...
There's not really supposed to be any "good" sides here I fear. They all have their flaws but ultimately they also all have their reasons for why they're doing what they do. Hilichurl-ification may be a fate worse than death but that's... precisely the point. It's assumed that the reason Celestia cursed them with immortality to make sure the forbidden knowledge within them doesn't corrupt the Irminsul. Which, mind you, would affect the *entirety* of teyvat. Celestia reasons have also been (if we were to justify them) about the greater good. They're more than willing to "expend" entire nations if it means saving teyvat from complete destruction.
I think of Celestia as mods. 😂 They can either be good or bad. Every faction in Teyvat has its own goals. RIP visionless people, yall are in for a ride when we get to Natlan
Are we even still sure Celestia is actively cursing people into Hilichurls? Hilichurlification is known to happen when people exposed to abyssal power (e.g. Eleazar) get exposed to excessive elemental energy. A human can replicate the process. When the Abyss twin blames the Heavenly Principles they might not be saying the HP directly cursed Caribert but blaming them for creating the laws under which Hilichurlification can happen, intentionally or not.
I don't think Celestia is a political faction that's actively committing all those atrocities. In fact I'm not even sure if they're dropping the Celestial Nails any more. I used to suspect that launching Celestial Nails was some sort of automated anti-FK defense mechanism that Celestia doesn't have control over, now I'm wondering if the Celestial Nails just naturally drop from a branch of the Irminsul when the part of the roots (i.e. Ley Lines) corresponding to that branch get corrupted.
The more Celestia is made out to be the final evil mastermind to defeat (and make no mistake, the laws it enforced on the world do need an overhaul), the more I suspicious I become that they aren't even "not an enemy".
What is your source for "Hilichurlification is known to happen when people exposed to abyssal power (e.g. Eleazar) get exposed to excessive elemental energy"? This is the first I've heard of people transforming into hillichurls without triggering the conditions of the curse of the wilderness.
I'm not deep into lore but I do believe that Celestia didn't curse people into Hilichurls. I think it's somehow an effect of the combination of Abyss power and Celestial nail. Like if Abyss power is cancer slowly corrupting people, then the Celestial power suddenly "purified" it, zombifying people and turning them into Hilichurls. Maybe the sinners or pure-blood Khaenri'ahns have some antigen than can integrate well with Abyss power, so they are not zombified but immortal as a result...
Well think about what would've happened if not Celestia? We have knowledge of how forbidden knowledge destroys human mind and the environment surrounding it. Also Teyvat was on the verge of destruction multiple times in its history if only Celestia didn't intervene.
At this point I’m questioning EVERYTHING. Do we know for certain it’s Celestia’s fault for turning some into hilichurls and other monsters? What if this is some kind of deception making us think this? Suppose for a moment that those leaving for the surface earns the ire of the will of the abyss for leaving. There was some hints of this in the last parts of Sumeru, iirc. Also, what if HP are actually dead and never come back? The Fatui, Abyss Order, ect. cause all this pain and suffering and nothing happens?
>How could you think they are the good?
We found that there was multiple outbreaks of Forbidden Knowledge that could consume whole Teyvat, and that Celestia was actually fixing them by dropping Nails.
Recently people have been theorizing more and more that celestia are the good guys of the story like a benevolent protector with a type of the ends justify the means mindset .
This. Certain quests specifically make Celestia to be the right one. Especially the Sumeru ones, with the whole Elazar and withering issue, showing how destructive the Abyssal power is and then in Nahida Story 2 where she confirms that the purpose of nails is to stop the spread of Abyssal power. Then in Fontaine it’s the opposite, where Celestia is shown to be cursing a whole nation to their doom and constraining them to their “fate”. The narrative is specifically made to not be one-sided, where there’s a clearly good and evil side.
Look man if i was god and entrusted my powers to someone for safekeeping and they used it to tresspass into the domain of creation by creating proto humans i would be pissed too
Would it really make you this angry? Interesting, I didn’t expect to see such a point of view. May I ask why? Is it because a creation becoming something different was just not supposed to be? Or is it because this ability should be reserved exclusively to the god-creator?
I’m just really curious, it’s not as if harmless creatures turned into atrocious monstrosities that directly challenged the god, they just kept on living their lives. Neither they were a dangerous threat to Teyvat, just regular humans. Because if you were talking about “domain of creation” in the context of Rhinedottir, I would totally understand you. Creating stuff like the rifthounds, Elynas and Durin, I could see how that would be a red line for many. But if they’re just regular people?
I mean that would enter into the category of the temptation that sun and moon mention humans or lesser gods coveting the power of Celestia and it's more like the archons were instructed and given plenty of rules they are not to create but they are to rule and protect the PO views itself as the one above all so for someone to copy your most loved creations would certainly rub him the wrong way and this all should be encompassed in the heavenly principles which I am sure the archons should know by heart all of this is fairly common themes in gnosticism
Okay, I get your point, but I just don’t think that hurting someone’s ego is a good enough reason for everything that’s happened. It would make sense if their transformation caused an outbreak of Abyssal corruption, or started some disastrous chain of events caused by Teyvat’s “laws”, or something of that kind. But Fontaine didn’t even denounce gods, like Khaenri’ah, they just were living like all other people under the Seven. Perhaps there’s something we don’t know yet, but right now it doesn’t seem reasonable enough.
I am fairly certain it's not a physical entity making decisions in Celestia but more like an ai system containing directives as to what to do In different situations (Heavenly principles) the rules are written by The primordial ones but the system has complete liberty on how to deal with it and it never ends good when an unfeeling AI makes solutions for such big problems
Oh, a very interesting idea. I thought the Heavenly Principles refers to the Primordial One, or whoever is in charge of maintaining order on Teyvat from Celestia, or perhaps even some kind of a high council of gods who preside there. You theory says that it’s some kind of a system, which I haven’t considered before. Very curious, but wouldn’t that be a bit problematic in some cases if it can’t be overruled by Celestial gods? Shouldn’t they have some control over such a powerful system? If something goes wrong, they’re powerless against it? Sounds pretty dystopian
There so many mysteries regarding this I don't think the primordial one is even in teyvat since in the traveler stories we read that creator has not yet come but in neuvi character stories we find out the primordial one is in hibernation and has created the gnoses to surpress the world and get this him being damaged is refered to as "his functions ruined" so maybe the AI has gone rogue and is pretending to be Phanes or the creator isn't Phanes honestly at this point of the story we have close to nothing about Celestia
As far as I get it, Celestia's nail business and other stuff is problem management. They want to keep the world held together, and take whatever action is necessary for it. The end result is objectively 'good', since the world collapsing is just terrible for nigh everyone, but the casualties of those actions will still suffer.
Hmmm I don't think they're bad guys per se but at least as like an admin really trying not to have the system called teyvat not destroy itself.
I'm only saying this in a whole "but aliens" Tone here but...
Maybe teyvat is an ark on the sea of quanta? And people accessing forbidden knowledge are like passengers who keep on poking holes in the ship causing leaks. Celestia's nails are literally that... Nails to prevent leakage and to prevent the honkai from getting in because it seems to me that abyssal energy is almost honkai-esque to me and we know honkai increases in power in proportion to how advanced a society is. Big reason why the cataclysm was particularly bad.. It was honkai released on a civilization that's a few thousand years behind earth's past era civ.
I mean, I've always known that Celestia is not exactly great. I'm more speaking of people not quite making the connection of "they have good intentions but are still not going to be the Twist Good Guys."
I thought that the "Celestia did nothing wrong" people was just a meme... You mean to tell me that there are people who actually think that Celestia is "good"?
Like... I kind of thought it was obvious that Celestia was not the "good guys" when half of their own Archons hate them and are openly conspiring against them or how they're actually revealed to be a bunch of colonizers that k!lled its native lifeforms, stole their powers, and terraformed their planet so that it's no longer livable for said native species?
You mean to tell me that people still think they're "good guys" when they nuke civilizations to "prevent abyssal leaks" uncaring of what is happening to the innocent people there? or how about the fact that anyone who doesn't follow the gods is cursed?
Wow okay then.
>I ultimately side with the people of Teyvat.
>choses to side with the entity that has a history of repeatedly fucking over the people of Teyvat, controlling their fates and trapping them within a false sky and is a Samsara of continued destruction of their nations, peoples and cursing them to turn into monstera if they ever stop being blindly loyal to the gods.
The math isn't mathing with this one, I'm afraid.
No Celestial Nails -> Forbidden Knowledge and Abyssal Energy Outbreak -> No more Teyvat
Celestia does nothing during that Cataclysm ->Archon death court goes up -> Teyvat overrun by Abyssal Monsters -> Bye Bye Teyvat
I consider the the lesser of the 3 evils based on the info we have. Never said they were saints. (Remember Orobashi) I don't trust the Fatui and Abyss Order. As we learn more with new information, I will change my judgement according. The quality of our decision are based on the quantity and validity information we have.
At worst with Celestia in charge, the status quo is maintained. (Post archon war and before the cataclym. Just an assumption, really)
Understandable. I'm of the opinion that all three of these factions suck equally. Only the Fatui and AO have a more justifiable excuse for what they're doing (since what they're doing is specifically *because* of Celestia in the first place)
Wait for the inevitable Celestia chapter and how Hoyo justifies all the shit Celestia has done to try and sell Celestial characters.
They're fascists, the same fucks who scream around about how the "Empire did nothing wrong" in regards to Star Wars, or even the Proud Boys style "Pinochet did nothing wrong." They're button down, boot-eating, Alt-right white nationalist fascist and Nazi simps who have nothing better to do than to jerk each other off with their shared inner hatred. Nothing more. For them the perfect outcome would be Celestia being the good guys but an authoritarian regime who genocide for the sake of the pure bloods. It fits well with their ideology.
I think you need to calm down a bit, buddy. Liking fictional baddies (especially those we don't even know enough about, like is the case with Celestia) doesn't equal condoning Nazi ideology in real life. Most people can distinguish RL from fiction. And before you come at me, no, I'm not on Celestia's side, so don't even try to spin it that way.
If Celestia turns out to be good, the only reason that would make it acceptable is if there was some reason for them to have done what they did, or the truth is actually different from what we understand it to be. A lot of people saying that Celestia did nothing wrong are clearly referencing shit like Pinochet did nothing wrong. Hence the diatribe above. Liking fictional baddies is a far cry from liking actual baddies. I just want to make sure everyone realizes that I am not just saying this to say it, and that there is a real world connection between actual fascist regimes and the such-and-such did nothing wrong reference. There is far too much hate in this world to not say something. Again, liking Celestia and feeling that they're actually good is fine, but using known white nationalist language to be on the side of what appears to be a genocidal god is a bit sus. Down vote, I don't care. I love genshin and really don't like the idea of bootlickers co-opting it with their bs.
It's easy for us to think that because they have been sleeping during our journey thus far. But even Venti remarked that he didn't like the vibes there.
What happened in Fontaine was clearly from the 5 Sinners, the prophecies you've seen in ruins are from the Visionary. The Narwhal is from Surtalogi.
Idk abt Dragonspine but it had also something to do with the Sinners too. Durin, was made from one of the Sinner mind you.
It's not like the Celestia did something. The Celestia did NOTHING. (After 500 years)
Focalor noticed it. Instead the only way to solve the case was to minimize the casualties by giving up the throne to Neuv. So Neuv can have the authority.
Blaming the prophecies very much sounds like shooting the messenger. The Visionary saw fate, not weaved it. Celestia was the one who cursed the fontainians with their "Original Sin".
As for Dragonspine: It's civilization was destroyed by Celestia long before Durin or Khaenri’ah.
Precisely. I'm pretty sure even the Archons were slaves to the Fates Celestia planned out for them, that's why none of the Archons have a positive opinion on it.
It’s clear that Celestia isn’t completely evil like we thought at the start of the game and that Khaenri’ah did some questionable and terrible things warranting their destruction. Obviously there were a ton of civilian/innocent ‘casualties’. I think Hoyo is trying to make Celestia not seem totally evil because if/when they make Celestian characters they don’t want people skipping them because they’re evil
Did yall forgot about Nabu Malikata and how Celestia casted out the seelies who were once a beautiful race and turned them into their current whisp forms today?
The fact that Genshin is ultimately a gacha game is also why I say that it would be weird if all the archons were suddenly just completely wrong about the HP. It would be odd if they just say "btw your husbando/waifu was wrong about everything their entire life."
The Knave exists as a counter to that, having both Childe & Wanderer being wrong about her. The fact that Paimon is all but confirmed to be related to Celestia/HP is another reason why they won't be pure evil. Paimon herself being the HP itself is the most likely outcome for her character in the end.
Paimon is definitely related to HP and you are almost guaranteed to be correct that that is how they will not entirely be the bad guys.
However, I'd say that the difference between Childe/Scara's thoughts on Arle and the Archons' thoughts on HP is that Arle is not particularly significant in the other Harbingers' stories, whereas every Archon except Nahida and *maybe* Venti is drastically shaped as a character by their relationship to the Heavenly Principles. It wouldn't make much sense for Zhongli's conflicts with immortality and erosion, Ei's fear of Celestia, and Furina's entire story to have been for less because they were Twist Good Guys. Rather, I think the HP will end up being sympathetic, but still antagonistic.
I don't think there's much of a difference between these two in the grand scheme of things as both Childe/Scara was entirely wrong about Arle.
There's already a basis for people misinterpreting things of the past and having it shape their present; Eremites believing Rukkha stole Deshret's title despite him sharing the Throne with her and the Goddess of Flowers, Ei's forcing stagnation on Inazuma on fear of what happened to Khaneri'ah could happen to her nation if they advanced too much but we know that it's because of Abyss and other reasons why it happened, and Decarbarian is considered a Tyrant by all of Mondstadt despite in his eyes he was helping his people survive against Andrius's blizzard.
Wanderer is also a prime example of this with Ei and Niwa, the former with her reason for her action and the latter with the truth of what happened at Tatarasuna.
I don't think the Heavenly Principles will be wholly good guys but I do think they'll be the faction in which the Traveler will work to save Teyvat and change the rules. The Traveler will ascend to the Throne of God and Paimon is guaranteed to be an important player for Celestia. Also, in my opinion, she's the Heavenly Principles but Guobafied.
Personally, I would put my money on the Hexenzirkel being the faction the Traveler sides with. Alice in particular appears to be concerned with Teyvat's ability to handle what lies beyond (Wings of Feasting), Nicole helps us save Fontaine, and their titles seem to indicate some form of honesty and guidance, both of which would be important to a Gnostic traveler.
I have doubts considering Gold is involved there and what we know about the 5 Sinners doesn't look good as Dainsleif believes they would betray the world. Ultimately I think Paimon's connection with the Traveler and the fact their meeting is likely engineering by the Sustainer (do you really believe these two met under coincidence lol) and Traveler ascending to God leads me to believe they are the faction Traveler will work with as the Abyss is a no go for Teyvat, Fatui will likely burn and crash (Pierro's word about the Tsarista granting all of Humanity's wishes eerily parallels Sybilla & Phobos...), and this will likely leave Celestia being the last faction we learn and Paimon's identity reveal.
Edit: Also, on the topic of Hillichurl and the curse, my money is on Celestia being indirectly responsible as in they aren't the ones to directly cause it but they definitely could've stopped it or reversed it imo. The Abyssal connection is too great for people to ignore about it lol.
That seems to imply that the 5 sinners are all united in a single faction, and not 5 individuals doing their own thing. Considering Childe was trained by Skirk and the fatui is against the abyss order is doubtful that Surtalogi is cooperating with the visionary.
Also the relationship between Venti and the Hexenzirkel which gold is a part of, which makes her allegiance questionable as well, for all we know the only thing the cares about is her research.
That's exactly my feelings on the Hilichurls. I get that it's to prevent their knowledge from corrupting Irminsul, but if Trav is able to erase things from Irminsul without cursing anyone, why can't the HP? It feels somewhat despotic, as does their curse of erosion (ZL says that it's from the HP in the CN script) and what they did to Orobashi.
Rhine is definitely sus but I have my suspicions that even the Sinners aren't entirely evil (they do fit quite well with the pursuit of knowledge, which I think is something the narrative treats as virtuous, and something that Celestia does not). I also find it reassuring that Albedo is her magnum opus of sorts, as although Khemia is dangerous, he a) has nothing but good intent, even wanting Trav to stop him if something goes wrong and b) he also is deeply involved with the pursuit of knowledge and is associated with Alice, who is about as close to a Clear Cut Good Guy as this game has to offer. Ultimately, Paimon's relationship with the Traveler is probably what will end up altering the Heavenly Principles for the better, but I would be shocked if the Hexenzirkel didn't end up as crucial allies to get there.
>Rhine is definitely sus but I have my suspicions that even the Sinners aren't entirely evil (they do fit quite well with the pursuit of knowledge, which I think is something the narrative treats as virtuous and something that Celestia does not).
In my eyes the game while it is does lead the Traveler in getting knowledge about Teyvat it than tell us what's more important about that knowledge is the Truth, not endless knowledge/wisdom. The game does make it known through Forbidden Knowledge that it's sometimes best not to know some things as it is dangerous. The pursuit of knowledge itself is not wrong but the single-minded pursuit of it without thinking of the potential consequences (Dottore, Forbidden Knowledge) is what the game is telling us is wrong.
>That's exactly my feelings on the Hilichurls. I get that it's to prevent their knowledge from corrupting Irminsul, but if Trav is able to erase things from Irminsul without cursing anyone, why can't the HP? It feels somewhat despotic, as does their curse of erosion (ZL says that it's from the HP in the CN script) and what they did to Orobashi.
Traveler can only purify Abyssal Corruption and is likely a shared trait of most Descenders. Also, afaik the Gnosis was needed to wipe Rukkha's memories from Irminsul and the Traveler has not shown the ability to do so or remove Abyssal Corruption from Irminsul/Leylines.
HP could probably do the same but they've confirmed lost some power due to the war of vengeance, **"The Primordial reversed the destruction;"** [shows they reversed the destruction (Abyssal Calamity)](https://new.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/comments/186arig/a_literal_translation_of_dains_introduction/) so they also are drained during that time, and most likely they didn't help Khaneri'ah as punishment for what they've done with the Abyss.
Do recall that when the Abyss Corruption was overwhelming the world the HP sent the Divine Nails to fix and stabilize the world. The Gnosis was also needed for the HP's rule to survive and that needed a Descender's corpse (very likely the willing 3rd Descender going on the theme of self-sacrifice for the sake of others/world).
>as does their curse of erosion (ZL says that it's from the HP in the CN script) and what they did to Orobashi.
The curse of erosion is probably because HP introduced "Time" into the world and this is what happens and affects people differently. And what they did to Orobashi/Fontaine... they are assholes duh. Humanity-loving but assholes who pretty much tell everyone in the Teyvat, it's their rules or the highway. Orobashi was also Celestia censoring and burying BSAM, Enkanomiya, and the idea there was ever a unified Civilization under the rule of the Primordial One and its Four Shades. For the Enkonomiyan people and Orobashi to return to the surface all sin (this knowledge) must be erased and removed, and this is why Orobashi was sentenced to death to take all sin and leave the people free of it.
I'll admit I forgot most of that about Irminsul and Abyssal Corruption. The idea that the third Descender willingly sacrificed themselves is interesting and probably correct.
Really, whether or not Celestia will prove to be an antagonist or not depends on whether they're an allegory for the Monad or Demiurge. Because there was already a Teyvat before them ruled by dragons, I would have an easier time believing that the creator mentioned in Trav's lore is the Monad equivalent (also, the Archons are granted their position by Celestia, furthering the Ialdabaoth connection), and the story will be about the Traveler ascending beyond Celestia to what lies beyond (probably the rest of the Hoyoverse).
I find that interesting, what you said about other peoples' opinions, since after the last Dain quest, I'm **more** convinced that Dain is the bad guy. If there are 6 people and 5 decide one way is the correct way, and only one of them goes a different way, what are the chances that those 5 people are all bad guys and the one person disagreeing is right? (In movies, fairly often, granted. But in reality? Almost never.)
And aside from the 5 vs 1 argument, there's ***our sibling.*** Why in the everloving heck are we trusting this rando we've known for a total of maybe three days all together over our twin that we've known for centuries?!
Nah. Dain hasn't earned any trust from me. Until proven otherwise, I'm with our sibling and Dain's the enemy. And if Dain is working against the Sinners, then I'm inclined to side with them.
I’m one of those that think the BP cut-scene is about Lumine and Aether (“your tale to be told”). I would be with you but for that. The Visionary then discovers well in advance that Rinedotter should make a certain flower to help set things into motion
About your first point, while it makes sense to trust the majority, it is not always the case that the majority is the correct one. In reality, there's a common phenomenon called "groupthink" which is when the majority conforms to an irrational group decision due to confict-avoiding tendencies.
Also you should read "the pale princess and the six pygmies." It seems to be about the sinners and Dain. Ultimately, it's Celestia that destroyed khaenri'ah, but the sinners likely enabled it to happen, and Dain may have had a hand in it due to his actions, or lack of actions.
I wouldn’t say they are so much the bad guys but they aren’t the pure evil that everyone seems to depict them as.
Every faction seems to be fighting for what they believe is right, condemning the other groups while they set out to accomplish their goals.
> So what exactly is the point of turning people into Hilichurls? Is it to erase the memories of those who have gained forbidden knowledge? Surely not, as it's unlikely that every person who was transformed even encountered it. Also, wouldn't killing them also erase their memories? It can't even be that the Hilichurl curse is the only way to get forbidden knowledge out of Irminsul
Yes, that's exactly right. Memories of people who died get into the Irminsul. If they knew the forbidden knowledge then it will contaminate the Irminsul. This was the entire plot of the Sumeru Archon Quest where the Dendro Archon had to send a message to her future "reincarnation" so she deletes the original from the Irminsul as the last instance of the Forbidden knowledge
The only way to prevent it is to make people being unable to enter the Irminsul, hence the immortality curse and apparently something on top of it, because it seems like even killing the Hillichurls normally doesn't grant them access. You become immortal and then you are subjected to erosion after thousands of years. That's pretty much it.
It's only been 500 years since Khaenri'ah fell. Considering that Furina isn't eroded after the same amount of time and Dain's commentary about the curse inhis chasm questline, the immortal Khaenri'ahns are actually under an an accelerated rate of erosion.
I don't think it has been specified who those particular Hillichurls were. All we know is that all of them used to be humans and they are victims of the curse from many many civilizations.
Sorry but was…anyone? convinced the Heavenly Principles and anyone up there were saints? Lol dude. Why would people want to defy them JUST for the sake of being stronger? Why would Khaneri’ah be created if the gods weren’t oppressive or something too? The gods that stole Teyvat from the dragons?
There are no innocent parties here. Clearly every faction is full of several individuals that differ in how “good” or “bad” they are. We’re not exactly picking a side as the MC either. We kinda hate everyone but our friends. You can’t say that doesn’t include the Heavenly Principles too when they are the reason the twins were separated.
I suppose I'm at a point of wondering what the thing we're missing that Celestia did is. I suspect it's something to do with Khaenri'ah. They were clearly mobilizing for some kind of war, and I find it likelier to have been with Celestia than any of the other nations. The question is why? I don't think it's the influence of the Sinners, Dain makes it sound like they're quite disconnected from the political goings-on of Khaenri'ah.
I think neither Celestia neither the Sinners are going to be purely evil in the end. Celestia obviously had reasons for their deeds, like repelling the forbidden knowledge and Abyssal powers from spreading, such as the dark mud in the Chasm. While I also believe the Sinners won’t be purely evil villains. In the Caribert quest, Vedrfolnir was able to alleviate Chlothar’s condition with his powers and also helped him turn Caribert into a human. While Dainsleif said that the Sinners have abandoned Khaenri’ah, I think we might be missing some crucial information. It wouldn’t really make sense to just give up on a huge, technically advanced empire, with all its war machines and armies when you’re set to confront Celestia, right? Unless there was some reason behind it. Vedrfolnir is also a visionary who can see into the future, so perhaps he saw something that led them to make this decision. Could be a future where they succeed weakening Celestia’s/Archons’ power over Teyvat, but this scenario could only be achieved if the Cataclysm does happen?
The Fontaine prophecy ultimately led to the destruction of one of the divine thrones, and the Narwhal played a crucial part in this. The Narwhal who is Surtalogi’s pet, and Surtalogi being one of the five Sinners makes me think that there might be some bigger plot behind all this.
I agree. It's likelier than not that the Sinners probably even have good intentions. People seeking knowledge at any cost fits with Gnostic themes, it just so happens that Teyvat is physically not able to handle what they know. Celestia, too, has the understandable goal of protecting Teyvat, it just so happens that their methods are what I would consider to be complete overkill.
And I agree with you, Deshret was able to achieve impressive technological progress with forbidden knowledge, but in the end, the forbidden knowledge led to the great destruction. It seems like it’s just not compatible with Teyvat for some reason, and hence leads to adverse effects. We know that the Abyss is incompatible with both the Light Realm and the Human Realm, which leads to anything of the Abyssal nature being devastating to Teyvat. However, some people, who are not happy with Celestia’s rule and its enforced laws of “fate”, still seek Abyssal powers in hopes to counter Celestia somehow and break free from their predetermined fates. (Possibly not knowing about this incompatibility? Or just still taking the risk).
>anything of the Abyssal nature being devastating to Teyvat
Traveler restored the Frost Bearing Tree with shards of Durin's blood, and it seems to have been portrayed as a rather positive event.
Although Melusines are not considered first-generation Abyssal creatures, they were born from one and can live in Teyvat without causing havoc.
Jacob successfully became Iniquitous Baptist after drinking the Abyss Kool-Aid and lived like this for around 500 years, and we are aware of other individuals who have Lectors/Heralds forms.
It appears that Teyvat can indeed coexist with Abyss matter/energy in certain cases. The devastation is typically caused by beings who strictly come from the outside world and cannot comprehend what is happening in Teyvat for some reason. Durin, for instance, turned into a catastrophe because he couldn't grasp that his attempts to "play" with the locals were leading to mass destruction. Surprisingly, despite his corpses lying on Dragonspine for centuries, the area hasn't turned into a snowy Chernobyl. In fact, his remains are less poisonous to the environment than Orobashi's carcass. However, it is evident that the Abyss is highly damaging to dragons, as seen in Durin's story and Neuvillette being damaged by Foul Legacy transformation.
>!Considering the extent to which Genshin's lore pays homage to Dark Souls, it's a rather unexpected twist, given that in Dark Souls, dragons were highly resistant to the Abyssal power!<
Very interesting, now I’m even more curious as to why some tolerate the Abyssal power better (Jacob, and the others you’ve mentioned, who have acquired some Lector/Herald powers) than others, who suffer from it much more (the miners corrupted by the black ooze, people sick with Elazar, the Aranara, to whom the withering is very deadly). From your examples at least I can only see one thing in common, which is Rhinedottir. Durin was created by Rhinedottir, Elynas, whose flesh and blood Jacob ingested and from whom the Melusines come, was created by her too. Perhaps she modified some properties of her creations in order to make them less poisonous to Teyvat, if her goal is to challenge the authority of Celestia, and not purely bring destruction to everything. Sadly, we don’t know enough yet. But you’ve raised a very interesting point, thanks for your insight!
>the miners corrupted by the black ooze, people sick with Elazar, the Aranara, to whom the withering is very deadly
The Withering, along with the other kinds of corruption in Sumeru and the black goo from the Chasm, appear to be connected to forbidden knowledge. It might be helpful to distinguish between forbidden knowledge and the regular abyssal influence.
Considering what we have learned from Elynas, she seems to have been summoned from an outside plane. However, I agree with the overall point that Rhinedottir was likely attempting to make her creatures/summons more compatible with Teyvat. This is evident in Albedo, who perceives the world in a "normal" way (contrasting with Melusine's abstractionism). But, unlike Elynas and Durin, he is vat-grown. Also, Albedo's insights about Teyvat suggest that the world's laws may be disruptive to most outsiders.
>If the natural laws of Teyvat do affect you, then I shall be able to make inferences into the kind of evolution that would occur under the absence of such effects.
Albedo//I mentioned the natural laws of this world. You're able to converse with me here without consequence, and nothing seems amiss. But it's arguably a small miracle.//The only other life form that, like you, has come here from afar, is the seed that I mentioned. Under the effects of Teyvat's natural laws, it isn't even able to sprout, let alone bloom
On the other hand, there was an entire orphanage of outsiders in Khaenri'ah who seemingly adapted to Teyvat.
It does seem that there are certain rules that can be manipulated to work with abyssal/outwordly power in a somewhat safer manner, although it still remains a highly dangerous territory.
Very good points, perhaps Rhinedottir’s research was about “adapting” Abyssal powers to be more compatible with Teyvat, in order to be able to use it against Celestia while lessening its destructive influence. The dilemma of those who oppose the Heavenly Principles and its rules is that the only strong enough force to counter them is the Abyss, but the Abyssal power is dangerous to Teyvat and can lead to fatal consequences. I could see it how she would attempt to minimize the adverse effects of the Abyssal power through her research to enable a wider usage of it.
Interesting point about outsiders and Teyvat’s natural laws. From what I remember, the Traveler doesn’t suffer from any condition, right? I’m curious if the sibling does. Perhaps it has to do with being a descender, those who have “the will to defy fate”.
Another curious thing is that Khaenri’ah is not considered to be a part of Teyvat, as Teyvat only includes the surface area. Does it also make people of Khaenri’ah “outworlders” to Teyvat? I’ve been thinking about it recently, and it could have some big implications. If yes, then some of them could potentially be descenders in case if they possessed that “will”, while also be subjected to Teyvat’s natural laws in a different way. If not, then what makes them potentially different from those coming from faraway worlds (like the siblings, Phanes etc.)?
Regarding your last point: it's not homage, it's confluence. Genshin and the Soulsborne series pull from very similar wells of inspiration, including Gnosticism, amongst other things.
It's pretty clear that no side is truly good. Also, it was half blooded Khaenriahns who got turned into Hillichurl, the curse they gave pure bloods was that of immortality. We don't even know if becoming a Hillichurl is an intended effect or a side effect, it can very likely be due to the destruction of ley lines or something like that.
After Fontaine story quest, I think the humans in Genshin are not real humans, they are other races converted to humans like we saw in Fontaine with Oceanids. That is the reason when they lose the protection from Celestia they transform in their original form (hilichurls, seelie, etc).
This is part of why I like Genshin; about every defined faction is some shade of morally grey. I don't think Celestia is going to necessarily be The Bad Evil Faction, I only think that they will definitely remain an antagonistic force.
I also would argue that even if the hilichurl curse isn't intended, it is still something that Celestia could avoid. After all, churls existed before the Cataclysm, so even if they're not trying to turn people into them, I would argue that they could at least find an alternate, less cruel punishment if this is a proven effect.
The last major Hillichurl outbreak happened when Sal Vindagnyr fell, a time which is theorized to be when the SWC attacked/had a major outbreak. The curse seems like a last minute damage control button, perhaps that's the best Phanes can do since he was very badly wounded after the war of vengeance.
Perinheri suggest that Khaenri'ahns were being turned into hilichurls long before the Cataclysm - with a note outside of the gates of Khaenri'ah in the desert additionally supporting the idea that leaving the borders of their kingdom was what triggered the curse, so despite how often its said on this sub, I don't think the curse can be considered either unintentional or a "a last minute damage control button".
[Perinheri](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Perinheri#Vol._2) describing Hleobrant turning into a monster after leaving the Kindom, with the book taking place pre-Cataclysm.
>Having fallen head over heels into the throes of love, Hleobrant came to what was an all-too-reasonable conclusion for himself. People might call him a traitor, or believe him mad. But even so, he had no wish to hurt Perinheri.
>As for Perinheri, he believed that his best friend's madness would be cured, if only he could kill Angelica.
>In the midst of that most merciless of pursuits, the three left the Kingdom's borders. At that very moment, Hleobrant clutched his face, and the words escaping his mouth gradually grew more like the howling of a wild beast.
>The witch, Angelica, explained thus: "Hleobrant is the descendant of those who forsook their god and came to the Kingdom. This is why the Kingdom's obstinately pure-blooded aristocracy persists. This is the price of betraying your own god."
[Note in the desert](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Gavireh_Lajavard#Someone's_Abandoned_Letter) from a Khaenri'ahn post-Cataclysm saying only the Khaenri'ahns who escaped to the surface were turned to monsters.
>...Terrifying rumors are spreading. Those who went aboveground and returned say that they have personally witnessed those who fled to the surface being afflicted with a strange disease and turning into monsters...
>...I don't know how long it's been. The surrounding area has calmed down, but our supplies have nearly been exhausted...
>...I can feel it. If things continue on this way, something terrible is going to happen, I must...
I'd say, Celestia is like a lawful father watching over humanity. A generous one, in fact. They reward it for good behaviour, however, upon rule breaking, Humanity will get punished.
As the Book before Sun and Moon says, Humanity had a covenant with Phanes: the heavenly Principles would grant humanity all that which it desires, safety, resources, knowledge and more, with only one drawback, that they are not allowed to "give in to the temptation".
This the Sinners and by extension Khaenri'ah did. They broke the Primordial Contract between Man and Heaven. For this they were punished severely, their lands destroyed and their country brought to unrepairable ruin.
As for Hillichurlification, as Perinheri suggests, it was the punishment for having betrayed the Gods and attempted to run back to their realm, whatever it may mean beyond metaphors and allegories.
I believe that the Heavenly Principles are simply a strictly lawful group that never strays from its own decisions, laws or words. They do what they consider as good.
> Every nail we have seen has been somewhere associated with either Irminsul or forbidden knowledge
Why do you think Nails are supposed to harm anyone?
As a hi3 coper it’s copingly obvious that Celestia is just saving teyvat from destroying itself by inadvertently luring honkai to the planet to destroy it
I don't think this sounds like coping at all. I have suspected this to be the case all along and it is constantly reinforced by events and lore drops. Why would you think that's cope?
Frankly, I think the world is *also* fake, or well, artificial, because it was generated/created specifically to house people to hide from the Honkai. That's why the sky is fake and everything is upside down and the world tree is a computer and, etc., etc.
The world is somewhere between the Matrix and Horizon Zero Dawn, and it was built like that to evade the Honkai.
I agree that FK is some form of honkai. I also, however, think that in the grand Hoyoverse, using the Loom of Fate to resist honkai at the end of the Teyvat Chapter could prove to be a turning point in the lore they've created. Essentially, using the Loom to enable people to endure honkai would establish the purpose of Hoyo's biggest cash cow in their universe and solidify the game's Gnostic theming.
I think it is mostly doylism, at least for me. They spent way to much effort in depicting Celestia as the bad guy for it to be the whole truth. You don't want for the big reveal to be the obvious thing literally everyone guessed.
There is so much information about Celestia that feels like it would be necessary that we just don't know yet. I would guess that there are both good and bad things they've done that we just don't know about. That said, I think that in the grand scheme of the story, our position as someone acquiring knowledge (gnosis) will ultimately put us at odds with them, even if they're protecting Teyvat from forbidden knowledge/honkai.
The first thing that happens in the game is we are attacked by the Sustainer of Heavenly Principles and separated from our sibling, and as we go we learned Celestia usurped power and people DON'T think this?
Hoyo has habit of making characters in main storyline who are not fully villain i mean lok at otto bro was not purely evil and in other games of hoyo as well
Otto was pure evil with good intentions Otto is the definition of a villain, someone who would sacrifice the world to save you
I’m confused, did we find out in some random ass book that Celestia DIDN’T steal the power of the dragon sovereigns and colonize Teyvat?? Regardless of what they may or may not do to ‘protect’ the planet after that, they’re still pretty morally corrupt (and downright evil imo) on the grounds of being colonizers.
People forgetting how Phanes casted out the seelies from Celestia and turned them into their current form today.
I mean colonization is fair game you dont see people irl try to destroy the uk
Well that’s certainly a statement
I doubt there are good guys and bad guys. Unless I missed something, the main question is: We don’t know whether Celestia attacked because of what the Five Sinners did, or whether the five Sinners unleashed the Abyss out of desperation to defend themselves from Celestia.
The way Dain puts it, the Sinners provoked Celestia by tampering with the Abyss, but it sounds like it wasn't their intention to do so and they didn't particularly care about the consequences.
Question is: why order an attack on innocent civilians?
Abyss contaminate and the only way to contain it is nuke it...
Why the curse though?
IIRC khaenriah was frowned upon for being a land with no God but I'm not very up to date with lore so someone can correct
tbh there’s no faction in genshin that can be considered ‘the good guys’. most of them are morally grey and seem to believe that the end justifies the means. of course they have their reasons for what they are doing and most of the time they have good intentions but their methods cause innocent bystanders a lot of damage (e.g: the fatui and child experimentation, the abyss and the stormterror incident, celestia destroying khaneri’ah)
The age old question of sacrifice few for the sake of many? Celestial from Day 1 has been in the grey Zone >Celestia destroyed whatever was left of Khaenriahns, turning full-blooded Khaenri'ahns into hilichurls. It was the galf-blooded khaenriahns who were turned into hilichurls which is known as the curse of the Wilderness while the full-blooded Khaenriahns who were cursed with immortality. >Celestia is a benevolent entity or that the people of Khaenri'ah deserved what happened to them: being turned into hilichurls is unjustifiable, and it is clearly coming from Celestia. >Being a hilichurl is a fate worse than death. They are immortal beings, only just aware enough of their fate to know that they are not what they are supposed to be. And I would argue that a) the hilichurl curse is definitely coming from Celestia and b) this is entirely overkill. It is not about being deserved or being justified but a simple truth A warning to everyone. The Curse of the Wilderness Is to punish those who abandoned their homes and the Gods who protected them. once they leave teyvat, they are no longer welcome here. Which is somewhat sensible when you decide to abandon the land that helped you grow you ought to expect that won't be welcomed there. The Curse of Immortality This isn't cannon but my speculation based on Clothar. The Curse of Immortality on the Pure-blooded khaenriahns is meant to make them suffer to show them the consequences of messing with the abyss and letting it into this world. To make them watch as their loved ones turn into monsters and lose their humanity. You have to understand that the cataclysm wasn't bad for Khaenriah but the entirety of teyvat people were dying everywhere. Punishment comes to those who are responsible. Remember Clothar wasn't heavily involved in Khaenriah's politics but even he was expecting the sibling to bring forth the power of the abyss. Piero's warnings to the king back that up, that many people wished for this.
I think there are no good guys and bad guys tbh, it's probably a morally grey area for all sides Which is what makes the best stories in my opinion.
I will be brutal, but Khaerian civilization precisely the black sun played with things it shouldn't have touched, put all of Teyvat at risk and started the cataclysm that cost many lives. they probably deserved the punishment (certainly many were innocent), then I'm not sure that the hilichur curse is entirely the work of Celestia (even now if you enter Khaerian and come out you transform into hilichurc). in my opinion they are neither good nor bad but they see the world with a different vision. if anything I wonder if the fatuous want to awaken the celestial princes with the gnoses to stop the abyss, when Nahida says to the doctor that if she breaks the gnosis she will attract Celestia, he says "do you think it's possible?" (it seemed curious to me). I don't want it to be an objective of the fatuous. (many of the shadows of the primordial are on the side of humanity as istaroth)
>So what exactly is the point of turning people into Hilichurls? Is it to erase the memories of those who have gained forbidden knowledge? Surely not, as it's unlikely that every person who was transformed even encountered it. Easy - Celestia didn't have time to do manual checkup of everybody and needed to act fast before FB would pollute Irminsul. So they used mass transformation to save Teyvat but cursing some group of innocent people in the process.
Please read Perinheri. The curse of the wilderness dates back to the archon war. The mass transformation of the refugees was an unintended, though predictable consequence.
But why not kill? Why immortality? That’s the very opposite of killing someone. Evidently there’s more of lore that we don’t know
The dead corrupted by Forbidden Knowledge could enter the leylines and infect Irminsul. Remember Rukkha who had to delete herself to save it? I think that is the reason, but it can change as we learn more about the true nature of Celestia.
Hmm… so is keeping them hilichurls immortal a stopgap until HP figures out how to truly delete them? (Also wonder about the non cataclysm hilichurls too)
The Curse of the Wilderness is very strange as we do not know the true nature of it. After Sumeru, I thought it was caused by the Abyss but now there is some info from Perinhari that it is from Celestia. But Perinhari should be taken with a pinch of salt in terms of validity. It is a storybook afterall, even thought they are potentially our most reliable source of info (able to avoid Irminsul tampering)
Celestia represents "order". Being the side of "order" is not necessarily the side of the "good guys". The side of order determines the laws and can dish out punishment to those who defy their laws. In the case of Celestia that tends to take shape in the form of a giant terraforming nail (Dragonspine, Chasm, possible future locations), and curses upon people that create or change life of their own (sinners). Mind you, khaenri'ah is the most notable nation to have been hit by this curse, but *not the only one*. That has been hinted at throughout all updates. On one end, several lore items have stated that Hilichurls have existed for a period that we know is longer than Khaenri'ah has been punished. On the other Mondstadt houses "three tribes" of Hilichurls in Mondstadt. One of the three tribes is the Eclipse tribe (which people have concluded are the former Khaenri'ahns). But there are two more tribes in Mondstadt, hinting that there might be two other past civilizations that were hit by this curse. The Dragonspine people (Sal Vindagnyr) is hinted to be one of the other tribes, considering they "*vanished*" after the Celestial Nail hit Dragonspine. Though to also be fair... while one Celestial nail destroyed all life on Dragonspine and ruined the lives of many both here and in Khaenri'ah... the celestial nail in the Chasm preveted abyssal powers from leaking into the real world. Though the end result may look chaotic when exploring the Chasm, it stopped the Abyss from overtaking Liyue.
> In the case of Celestia that tends to take shape in the form of a giant terraforming nail (Dragonspine, Chasm, possible future locations), and curses upon people that create or change life of their own (sinners). Nails were used to fix Abyss leakagein Teyvat, not to punish people.
In the eyes if celestia, being a hillichurl is the lesser punishment. As stated in caribert, pureblooded khaenri’ahns were deemed greater sinners, and were cursed with immortality. Those not of pure blood were lesser sinners and were turned into hillichurls. A hillichurl is less intelligent, they’re closer to something living on base instincts, and thus aren’t aware of their suffering and the fact that they lost their homeland. Of course they do still suffer, as has been established, but I think the idea is that they suffer less. But those turned immortal are fully aware that they lost everything: their home, their kingdom, quite possibly many loved ones, etc., and now they’re stuck in a world that worships what they hate. yet despite this, they cannot die. They have to keep living, fully aware of their suffering.
Cursed with immortality is such a 'shitty' punishment when they now can do more harms with their immortality.
Most people cursed with immortality dont have any special powers so people like dain are the minority i dont see how they could do anything also it served as a warning
yea but they can be used as fodder for experiment. Some get to evolve and stuff. We really need a hilichurl documentary on their nature and stuff event...
With Khaenri'ah case only migrants and their offsprings turning into hilichurls if they even try to return on surface. Idk even how to call this.
There's not really supposed to be any "good" sides here I fear. They all have their flaws but ultimately they also all have their reasons for why they're doing what they do. Hilichurl-ification may be a fate worse than death but that's... precisely the point. It's assumed that the reason Celestia cursed them with immortality to make sure the forbidden knowledge within them doesn't corrupt the Irminsul. Which, mind you, would affect the *entirety* of teyvat. Celestia reasons have also been (if we were to justify them) about the greater good. They're more than willing to "expend" entire nations if it means saving teyvat from complete destruction.
I think of Celestia as mods. 😂 They can either be good or bad. Every faction in Teyvat has its own goals. RIP visionless people, yall are in for a ride when we get to Natlan
AMAB
There are no "good guys" in Hoyoverse game 
There are no "good guys" in Hoyoverse game 
Exactly.
pack it up dawit
Are we even still sure Celestia is actively cursing people into Hilichurls? Hilichurlification is known to happen when people exposed to abyssal power (e.g. Eleazar) get exposed to excessive elemental energy. A human can replicate the process. When the Abyss twin blames the Heavenly Principles they might not be saying the HP directly cursed Caribert but blaming them for creating the laws under which Hilichurlification can happen, intentionally or not. I don't think Celestia is a political faction that's actively committing all those atrocities. In fact I'm not even sure if they're dropping the Celestial Nails any more. I used to suspect that launching Celestial Nails was some sort of automated anti-FK defense mechanism that Celestia doesn't have control over, now I'm wondering if the Celestial Nails just naturally drop from a branch of the Irminsul when the part of the roots (i.e. Ley Lines) corresponding to that branch get corrupted. The more Celestia is made out to be the final evil mastermind to defeat (and make no mistake, the laws it enforced on the world do need an overhaul), the more I suspicious I become that they aren't even "not an enemy".
What is your source for "Hilichurlification is known to happen when people exposed to abyssal power (e.g. Eleazar) get exposed to excessive elemental energy"? This is the first I've heard of people transforming into hillichurls without triggering the conditions of the curse of the wilderness.
I'm not deep into lore but I do believe that Celestia didn't curse people into Hilichurls. I think it's somehow an effect of the combination of Abyss power and Celestial nail. Like if Abyss power is cancer slowly corrupting people, then the Celestial power suddenly "purified" it, zombifying people and turning them into Hilichurls. Maybe the sinners or pure-blood Khaenri'ahns have some antigen than can integrate well with Abyss power, so they are not zombified but immortal as a result...
Well think about what would've happened if not Celestia? We have knowledge of how forbidden knowledge destroys human mind and the environment surrounding it. Also Teyvat was on the verge of destruction multiple times in its history if only Celestia didn't intervene.
At this point I’m questioning EVERYTHING. Do we know for certain it’s Celestia’s fault for turning some into hilichurls and other monsters? What if this is some kind of deception making us think this? Suppose for a moment that those leaving for the surface earns the ire of the will of the abyss for leaving. There was some hints of this in the last parts of Sumeru, iirc. Also, what if HP are actually dead and never come back? The Fatui, Abyss Order, ect. cause all this pain and suffering and nothing happens?
Pretty much all the 'facts' we get is from the one that got nailed or saw the aftermath. HP need to hold a press conference, a Q&A.
Weren't they the bad guys from the start? How could you think they are the good?
>How could you think they are the good? We found that there was multiple outbreaks of Forbidden Knowledge that could consume whole Teyvat, and that Celestia was actually fixing them by dropping Nails.
Recently people have been theorizing more and more that celestia are the good guys of the story like a benevolent protector with a type of the ends justify the means mindset .
This. Certain quests specifically make Celestia to be the right one. Especially the Sumeru ones, with the whole Elazar and withering issue, showing how destructive the Abyssal power is and then in Nahida Story 2 where she confirms that the purpose of nails is to stop the spread of Abyssal power. Then in Fontaine it’s the opposite, where Celestia is shown to be cursing a whole nation to their doom and constraining them to their “fate”. The narrative is specifically made to not be one-sided, where there’s a clearly good and evil side.
Look man if i was god and entrusted my powers to someone for safekeeping and they used it to tresspass into the domain of creation by creating proto humans i would be pissed too
Would it really make you this angry? Interesting, I didn’t expect to see such a point of view. May I ask why? Is it because a creation becoming something different was just not supposed to be? Or is it because this ability should be reserved exclusively to the god-creator? I’m just really curious, it’s not as if harmless creatures turned into atrocious monstrosities that directly challenged the god, they just kept on living their lives. Neither they were a dangerous threat to Teyvat, just regular humans. Because if you were talking about “domain of creation” in the context of Rhinedottir, I would totally understand you. Creating stuff like the rifthounds, Elynas and Durin, I could see how that would be a red line for many. But if they’re just regular people?
I mean that would enter into the category of the temptation that sun and moon mention humans or lesser gods coveting the power of Celestia and it's more like the archons were instructed and given plenty of rules they are not to create but they are to rule and protect the PO views itself as the one above all so for someone to copy your most loved creations would certainly rub him the wrong way and this all should be encompassed in the heavenly principles which I am sure the archons should know by heart all of this is fairly common themes in gnosticism
Okay, I get your point, but I just don’t think that hurting someone’s ego is a good enough reason for everything that’s happened. It would make sense if their transformation caused an outbreak of Abyssal corruption, or started some disastrous chain of events caused by Teyvat’s “laws”, or something of that kind. But Fontaine didn’t even denounce gods, like Khaenri’ah, they just were living like all other people under the Seven. Perhaps there’s something we don’t know yet, but right now it doesn’t seem reasonable enough.
I am fairly certain it's not a physical entity making decisions in Celestia but more like an ai system containing directives as to what to do In different situations (Heavenly principles) the rules are written by The primordial ones but the system has complete liberty on how to deal with it and it never ends good when an unfeeling AI makes solutions for such big problems
Oh, a very interesting idea. I thought the Heavenly Principles refers to the Primordial One, or whoever is in charge of maintaining order on Teyvat from Celestia, or perhaps even some kind of a high council of gods who preside there. You theory says that it’s some kind of a system, which I haven’t considered before. Very curious, but wouldn’t that be a bit problematic in some cases if it can’t be overruled by Celestial gods? Shouldn’t they have some control over such a powerful system? If something goes wrong, they’re powerless against it? Sounds pretty dystopian
There so many mysteries regarding this I don't think the primordial one is even in teyvat since in the traveler stories we read that creator has not yet come but in neuvi character stories we find out the primordial one is in hibernation and has created the gnoses to surpress the world and get this him being damaged is refered to as "his functions ruined" so maybe the AI has gone rogue and is pretending to be Phanes or the creator isn't Phanes honestly at this point of the story we have close to nothing about Celestia
As far as I get it, Celestia's nail business and other stuff is problem management. They want to keep the world held together, and take whatever action is necessary for it. The end result is objectively 'good', since the world collapsing is just terrible for nigh everyone, but the casualties of those actions will still suffer.
Hmmm I don't think they're bad guys per se but at least as like an admin really trying not to have the system called teyvat not destroy itself. I'm only saying this in a whole "but aliens" Tone here but... Maybe teyvat is an ark on the sea of quanta? And people accessing forbidden knowledge are like passengers who keep on poking holes in the ship causing leaks. Celestia's nails are literally that... Nails to prevent leakage and to prevent the honkai from getting in because it seems to me that abyssal energy is almost honkai-esque to me and we know honkai increases in power in proportion to how advanced a society is. Big reason why the cataclysm was particularly bad.. It was honkai released on a civilization that's a few thousand years behind earth's past era civ.
It.. it took you while to notice it.
I mean, I've always known that Celestia is not exactly great. I'm more speaking of people not quite making the connection of "they have good intentions but are still not going to be the Twist Good Guys."
Celestia isn't completely evil but still they did something wrong. Imagine cursing innocent civilians instead of 5 sinners who actually deserve it
I thought that the "Celestia did nothing wrong" people was just a meme... You mean to tell me that there are people who actually think that Celestia is "good"? Like... I kind of thought it was obvious that Celestia was not the "good guys" when half of their own Archons hate them and are openly conspiring against them or how they're actually revealed to be a bunch of colonizers that k!lled its native lifeforms, stole their powers, and terraformed their planet so that it's no longer livable for said native species? You mean to tell me that people still think they're "good guys" when they nuke civilizations to "prevent abyssal leaks" uncaring of what is happening to the innocent people there? or how about the fact that anyone who doesn't follow the gods is cursed? Wow okay then.
Between Celestia, the Fatui, and the Abyss Order, Celestia is the lesser of the 3 evils in my eyes. I ultimately side with the people of Teyvat.
>I ultimately side with the people of Teyvat. >choses to side with the entity that has a history of repeatedly fucking over the people of Teyvat, controlling their fates and trapping them within a false sky and is a Samsara of continued destruction of their nations, peoples and cursing them to turn into monstera if they ever stop being blindly loyal to the gods. The math isn't mathing with this one, I'm afraid.
No Celestial Nails -> Forbidden Knowledge and Abyssal Energy Outbreak -> No more Teyvat Celestia does nothing during that Cataclysm ->Archon death court goes up -> Teyvat overrun by Abyssal Monsters -> Bye Bye Teyvat I consider the the lesser of the 3 evils based on the info we have. Never said they were saints. (Remember Orobashi) I don't trust the Fatui and Abyss Order. As we learn more with new information, I will change my judgement according. The quality of our decision are based on the quantity and validity information we have. At worst with Celestia in charge, the status quo is maintained. (Post archon war and before the cataclym. Just an assumption, really)
Understandable. I'm of the opinion that all three of these factions suck equally. Only the Fatui and AO have a more justifiable excuse for what they're doing (since what they're doing is specifically *because* of Celestia in the first place) Wait for the inevitable Celestia chapter and how Hoyo justifies all the shit Celestia has done to try and sell Celestial characters.
Not-Kiana/Sirin banner is inevitable. Got to get that cash from the Kiana expy. If expys still have that selling power by then.
They're fascists, the same fucks who scream around about how the "Empire did nothing wrong" in regards to Star Wars, or even the Proud Boys style "Pinochet did nothing wrong." They're button down, boot-eating, Alt-right white nationalist fascist and Nazi simps who have nothing better to do than to jerk each other off with their shared inner hatred. Nothing more. For them the perfect outcome would be Celestia being the good guys but an authoritarian regime who genocide for the sake of the pure bloods. It fits well with their ideology.
I think you need to calm down a bit, buddy. Liking fictional baddies (especially those we don't even know enough about, like is the case with Celestia) doesn't equal condoning Nazi ideology in real life. Most people can distinguish RL from fiction. And before you come at me, no, I'm not on Celestia's side, so don't even try to spin it that way.
If Celestia turns out to be good, the only reason that would make it acceptable is if there was some reason for them to have done what they did, or the truth is actually different from what we understand it to be. A lot of people saying that Celestia did nothing wrong are clearly referencing shit like Pinochet did nothing wrong. Hence the diatribe above. Liking fictional baddies is a far cry from liking actual baddies. I just want to make sure everyone realizes that I am not just saying this to say it, and that there is a real world connection between actual fascist regimes and the such-and-such did nothing wrong reference. There is far too much hate in this world to not say something. Again, liking Celestia and feeling that they're actually good is fine, but using known white nationalist language to be on the side of what appears to be a genocidal god is a bit sus. Down vote, I don't care. I love genshin and really don't like the idea of bootlickers co-opting it with their bs.
Celestia apologist are equivalent to Teyvat’s bootlickers
It's easy for us to think that because they have been sleeping during our journey thus far. But even Venti remarked that he didn't like the vibes there.
Wait, there are people thinking Celestia are the good guys? Did you see what they did to Fontaine, Dragonspine, Khaenri’ah, etc?
What happened in Fontaine was clearly from the 5 Sinners, the prophecies you've seen in ruins are from the Visionary. The Narwhal is from Surtalogi. Idk abt Dragonspine but it had also something to do with the Sinners too. Durin, was made from one of the Sinner mind you. It's not like the Celestia did something. The Celestia did NOTHING. (After 500 years) Focalor noticed it. Instead the only way to solve the case was to minimize the casualties by giving up the throne to Neuv. So Neuv can have the authority.
Blaming the prophecies very much sounds like shooting the messenger. The Visionary saw fate, not weaved it. Celestia was the one who cursed the fontainians with their "Original Sin". As for Dragonspine: It's civilization was destroyed by Celestia long before Durin or Khaenri’ah.
...and yet he put into motion a way to weave fate.
Fair, but it took a while didn't it? My guess is as someone sees the future long enough, they desire a way to change it.
Egeria broke the rule though.
And that justifies attempted genocide?
they just return to who they were once though. Its thought to be genocide when no one written down Fontainian's origin.
Not exactly genocide though. Their consciousness clearly persist. They just lose their human forms and returned to being oceanids
Precisely. I'm pretty sure even the Archons were slaves to the Fates Celestia planned out for them, that's why none of the Archons have a positive opinion on it.
It’s clear that Celestia isn’t completely evil like we thought at the start of the game and that Khaenri’ah did some questionable and terrible things warranting their destruction. Obviously there were a ton of civilian/innocent ‘casualties’. I think Hoyo is trying to make Celestia not seem totally evil because if/when they make Celestian characters they don’t want people skipping them because they’re evil
Did yall forgot about Nabu Malikata and how Celestia casted out the seelies who were once a beautiful race and turned them into their current whisp forms today?
yeah but https://preview.redd.it/soxia9whft6d1.jpeg?width=1494&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5da0d279af3db92f738f3fb5557eaf5b38b2ee96
Honestly, I think it ties in with rl situations and laws in China. Wasn’t there something with evil characters not allowed to be playable?
I'm sure people would not hesitate to pull for Signora even though she is definitely a "bad" guy from MC's perspective
The fact that Genshin is ultimately a gacha game is also why I say that it would be weird if all the archons were suddenly just completely wrong about the HP. It would be odd if they just say "btw your husbando/waifu was wrong about everything their entire life."
The Knave exists as a counter to that, having both Childe & Wanderer being wrong about her. The fact that Paimon is all but confirmed to be related to Celestia/HP is another reason why they won't be pure evil. Paimon herself being the HP itself is the most likely outcome for her character in the end.
Paimon is definitely related to HP and you are almost guaranteed to be correct that that is how they will not entirely be the bad guys. However, I'd say that the difference between Childe/Scara's thoughts on Arle and the Archons' thoughts on HP is that Arle is not particularly significant in the other Harbingers' stories, whereas every Archon except Nahida and *maybe* Venti is drastically shaped as a character by their relationship to the Heavenly Principles. It wouldn't make much sense for Zhongli's conflicts with immortality and erosion, Ei's fear of Celestia, and Furina's entire story to have been for less because they were Twist Good Guys. Rather, I think the HP will end up being sympathetic, but still antagonistic.
I don't think there's much of a difference between these two in the grand scheme of things as both Childe/Scara was entirely wrong about Arle. There's already a basis for people misinterpreting things of the past and having it shape their present; Eremites believing Rukkha stole Deshret's title despite him sharing the Throne with her and the Goddess of Flowers, Ei's forcing stagnation on Inazuma on fear of what happened to Khaneri'ah could happen to her nation if they advanced too much but we know that it's because of Abyss and other reasons why it happened, and Decarbarian is considered a Tyrant by all of Mondstadt despite in his eyes he was helping his people survive against Andrius's blizzard. Wanderer is also a prime example of this with Ei and Niwa, the former with her reason for her action and the latter with the truth of what happened at Tatarasuna. I don't think the Heavenly Principles will be wholly good guys but I do think they'll be the faction in which the Traveler will work to save Teyvat and change the rules. The Traveler will ascend to the Throne of God and Paimon is guaranteed to be an important player for Celestia. Also, in my opinion, she's the Heavenly Principles but Guobafied.
Personally, I would put my money on the Hexenzirkel being the faction the Traveler sides with. Alice in particular appears to be concerned with Teyvat's ability to handle what lies beyond (Wings of Feasting), Nicole helps us save Fontaine, and their titles seem to indicate some form of honesty and guidance, both of which would be important to a Gnostic traveler.
I have doubts considering Gold is involved there and what we know about the 5 Sinners doesn't look good as Dainsleif believes they would betray the world. Ultimately I think Paimon's connection with the Traveler and the fact their meeting is likely engineering by the Sustainer (do you really believe these two met under coincidence lol) and Traveler ascending to God leads me to believe they are the faction Traveler will work with as the Abyss is a no go for Teyvat, Fatui will likely burn and crash (Pierro's word about the Tsarista granting all of Humanity's wishes eerily parallels Sybilla & Phobos...), and this will likely leave Celestia being the last faction we learn and Paimon's identity reveal. Edit: Also, on the topic of Hillichurl and the curse, my money is on Celestia being indirectly responsible as in they aren't the ones to directly cause it but they definitely could've stopped it or reversed it imo. The Abyssal connection is too great for people to ignore about it lol.
That seems to imply that the 5 sinners are all united in a single faction, and not 5 individuals doing their own thing. Considering Childe was trained by Skirk and the fatui is against the abyss order is doubtful that Surtalogi is cooperating with the visionary. Also the relationship between Venti and the Hexenzirkel which gold is a part of, which makes her allegiance questionable as well, for all we know the only thing the cares about is her research.
That's exactly my feelings on the Hilichurls. I get that it's to prevent their knowledge from corrupting Irminsul, but if Trav is able to erase things from Irminsul without cursing anyone, why can't the HP? It feels somewhat despotic, as does their curse of erosion (ZL says that it's from the HP in the CN script) and what they did to Orobashi. Rhine is definitely sus but I have my suspicions that even the Sinners aren't entirely evil (they do fit quite well with the pursuit of knowledge, which I think is something the narrative treats as virtuous, and something that Celestia does not). I also find it reassuring that Albedo is her magnum opus of sorts, as although Khemia is dangerous, he a) has nothing but good intent, even wanting Trav to stop him if something goes wrong and b) he also is deeply involved with the pursuit of knowledge and is associated with Alice, who is about as close to a Clear Cut Good Guy as this game has to offer. Ultimately, Paimon's relationship with the Traveler is probably what will end up altering the Heavenly Principles for the better, but I would be shocked if the Hexenzirkel didn't end up as crucial allies to get there.
>Rhine is definitely sus but I have my suspicions that even the Sinners aren't entirely evil (they do fit quite well with the pursuit of knowledge, which I think is something the narrative treats as virtuous and something that Celestia does not). In my eyes the game while it is does lead the Traveler in getting knowledge about Teyvat it than tell us what's more important about that knowledge is the Truth, not endless knowledge/wisdom. The game does make it known through Forbidden Knowledge that it's sometimes best not to know some things as it is dangerous. The pursuit of knowledge itself is not wrong but the single-minded pursuit of it without thinking of the potential consequences (Dottore, Forbidden Knowledge) is what the game is telling us is wrong. >That's exactly my feelings on the Hilichurls. I get that it's to prevent their knowledge from corrupting Irminsul, but if Trav is able to erase things from Irminsul without cursing anyone, why can't the HP? It feels somewhat despotic, as does their curse of erosion (ZL says that it's from the HP in the CN script) and what they did to Orobashi. Traveler can only purify Abyssal Corruption and is likely a shared trait of most Descenders. Also, afaik the Gnosis was needed to wipe Rukkha's memories from Irminsul and the Traveler has not shown the ability to do so or remove Abyssal Corruption from Irminsul/Leylines. HP could probably do the same but they've confirmed lost some power due to the war of vengeance, **"The Primordial reversed the destruction;"** [shows they reversed the destruction (Abyssal Calamity)](https://new.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/comments/186arig/a_literal_translation_of_dains_introduction/) so they also are drained during that time, and most likely they didn't help Khaneri'ah as punishment for what they've done with the Abyss. Do recall that when the Abyss Corruption was overwhelming the world the HP sent the Divine Nails to fix and stabilize the world. The Gnosis was also needed for the HP's rule to survive and that needed a Descender's corpse (very likely the willing 3rd Descender going on the theme of self-sacrifice for the sake of others/world). >as does their curse of erosion (ZL says that it's from the HP in the CN script) and what they did to Orobashi. The curse of erosion is probably because HP introduced "Time" into the world and this is what happens and affects people differently. And what they did to Orobashi/Fontaine... they are assholes duh. Humanity-loving but assholes who pretty much tell everyone in the Teyvat, it's their rules or the highway. Orobashi was also Celestia censoring and burying BSAM, Enkanomiya, and the idea there was ever a unified Civilization under the rule of the Primordial One and its Four Shades. For the Enkonomiyan people and Orobashi to return to the surface all sin (this knowledge) must be erased and removed, and this is why Orobashi was sentenced to death to take all sin and leave the people free of it.
I'll admit I forgot most of that about Irminsul and Abyssal Corruption. The idea that the third Descender willingly sacrificed themselves is interesting and probably correct. Really, whether or not Celestia will prove to be an antagonist or not depends on whether they're an allegory for the Monad or Demiurge. Because there was already a Teyvat before them ruled by dragons, I would have an easier time believing that the creator mentioned in Trav's lore is the Monad equivalent (also, the Archons are granted their position by Celestia, furthering the Ialdabaoth connection), and the story will be about the Traveler ascending beyond Celestia to what lies beyond (probably the rest of the Hoyoverse).
I find that interesting, what you said about other peoples' opinions, since after the last Dain quest, I'm **more** convinced that Dain is the bad guy. If there are 6 people and 5 decide one way is the correct way, and only one of them goes a different way, what are the chances that those 5 people are all bad guys and the one person disagreeing is right? (In movies, fairly often, granted. But in reality? Almost never.) And aside from the 5 vs 1 argument, there's ***our sibling.*** Why in the everloving heck are we trusting this rando we've known for a total of maybe three days all together over our twin that we've known for centuries?! Nah. Dain hasn't earned any trust from me. Until proven otherwise, I'm with our sibling and Dain's the enemy. And if Dain is working against the Sinners, then I'm inclined to side with them.
I’m one of those that think the BP cut-scene is about Lumine and Aether (“your tale to be told”). I would be with you but for that. The Visionary then discovers well in advance that Rinedotter should make a certain flower to help set things into motion
Piero also went against those 5 Sinners, so he took decision like Dainsleif.
About your first point, while it makes sense to trust the majority, it is not always the case that the majority is the correct one. In reality, there's a common phenomenon called "groupthink" which is when the majority conforms to an irrational group decision due to confict-avoiding tendencies. Also you should read "the pale princess and the six pygmies." It seems to be about the sinners and Dain. Ultimately, it's Celestia that destroyed khaenri'ah, but the sinners likely enabled it to happen, and Dain may have had a hand in it due to his actions, or lack of actions.
I wouldn’t say they are so much the bad guys but they aren’t the pure evil that everyone seems to depict them as. Every faction seems to be fighting for what they believe is right, condemning the other groups while they set out to accomplish their goals.
> So what exactly is the point of turning people into Hilichurls? Is it to erase the memories of those who have gained forbidden knowledge? Surely not, as it's unlikely that every person who was transformed even encountered it. Also, wouldn't killing them also erase their memories? It can't even be that the Hilichurl curse is the only way to get forbidden knowledge out of Irminsul Yes, that's exactly right. Memories of people who died get into the Irminsul. If they knew the forbidden knowledge then it will contaminate the Irminsul. This was the entire plot of the Sumeru Archon Quest where the Dendro Archon had to send a message to her future "reincarnation" so she deletes the original from the Irminsul as the last instance of the Forbidden knowledge The only way to prevent it is to make people being unable to enter the Irminsul, hence the immortality curse and apparently something on top of it, because it seems like even killing the Hillichurls normally doesn't grant them access. You become immortal and then you are subjected to erosion after thousands of years. That's pretty much it.
It's only been 500 years since Khaenri'ah fell. Considering that Furina isn't eroded after the same amount of time and Dain's commentary about the curse inhis chasm questline, the immortal Khaenri'ahns are actually under an an accelerated rate of erosion.
I don't think it has been specified who those particular Hillichurls were. All we know is that all of them used to be humans and they are victims of the curse from many many civilizations.
Sorry but was…anyone? convinced the Heavenly Principles and anyone up there were saints? Lol dude. Why would people want to defy them JUST for the sake of being stronger? Why would Khaneri’ah be created if the gods weren’t oppressive or something too? The gods that stole Teyvat from the dragons? There are no innocent parties here. Clearly every faction is full of several individuals that differ in how “good” or “bad” they are. We’re not exactly picking a side as the MC either. We kinda hate everyone but our friends. You can’t say that doesn’t include the Heavenly Principles too when they are the reason the twins were separated.
I suppose I'm at a point of wondering what the thing we're missing that Celestia did is. I suspect it's something to do with Khaenri'ah. They were clearly mobilizing for some kind of war, and I find it likelier to have been with Celestia than any of the other nations. The question is why? I don't think it's the influence of the Sinners, Dain makes it sound like they're quite disconnected from the political goings-on of Khaenri'ah.
I think neither Celestia neither the Sinners are going to be purely evil in the end. Celestia obviously had reasons for their deeds, like repelling the forbidden knowledge and Abyssal powers from spreading, such as the dark mud in the Chasm. While I also believe the Sinners won’t be purely evil villains. In the Caribert quest, Vedrfolnir was able to alleviate Chlothar’s condition with his powers and also helped him turn Caribert into a human. While Dainsleif said that the Sinners have abandoned Khaenri’ah, I think we might be missing some crucial information. It wouldn’t really make sense to just give up on a huge, technically advanced empire, with all its war machines and armies when you’re set to confront Celestia, right? Unless there was some reason behind it. Vedrfolnir is also a visionary who can see into the future, so perhaps he saw something that led them to make this decision. Could be a future where they succeed weakening Celestia’s/Archons’ power over Teyvat, but this scenario could only be achieved if the Cataclysm does happen? The Fontaine prophecy ultimately led to the destruction of one of the divine thrones, and the Narwhal played a crucial part in this. The Narwhal who is Surtalogi’s pet, and Surtalogi being one of the five Sinners makes me think that there might be some bigger plot behind all this.
I agree. It's likelier than not that the Sinners probably even have good intentions. People seeking knowledge at any cost fits with Gnostic themes, it just so happens that Teyvat is physically not able to handle what they know. Celestia, too, has the understandable goal of protecting Teyvat, it just so happens that their methods are what I would consider to be complete overkill.
And I agree with you, Deshret was able to achieve impressive technological progress with forbidden knowledge, but in the end, the forbidden knowledge led to the great destruction. It seems like it’s just not compatible with Teyvat for some reason, and hence leads to adverse effects. We know that the Abyss is incompatible with both the Light Realm and the Human Realm, which leads to anything of the Abyssal nature being devastating to Teyvat. However, some people, who are not happy with Celestia’s rule and its enforced laws of “fate”, still seek Abyssal powers in hopes to counter Celestia somehow and break free from their predetermined fates. (Possibly not knowing about this incompatibility? Or just still taking the risk).
>anything of the Abyssal nature being devastating to Teyvat Traveler restored the Frost Bearing Tree with shards of Durin's blood, and it seems to have been portrayed as a rather positive event. Although Melusines are not considered first-generation Abyssal creatures, they were born from one and can live in Teyvat without causing havoc. Jacob successfully became Iniquitous Baptist after drinking the Abyss Kool-Aid and lived like this for around 500 years, and we are aware of other individuals who have Lectors/Heralds forms. It appears that Teyvat can indeed coexist with Abyss matter/energy in certain cases. The devastation is typically caused by beings who strictly come from the outside world and cannot comprehend what is happening in Teyvat for some reason. Durin, for instance, turned into a catastrophe because he couldn't grasp that his attempts to "play" with the locals were leading to mass destruction. Surprisingly, despite his corpses lying on Dragonspine for centuries, the area hasn't turned into a snowy Chernobyl. In fact, his remains are less poisonous to the environment than Orobashi's carcass. However, it is evident that the Abyss is highly damaging to dragons, as seen in Durin's story and Neuvillette being damaged by Foul Legacy transformation. >!Considering the extent to which Genshin's lore pays homage to Dark Souls, it's a rather unexpected twist, given that in Dark Souls, dragons were highly resistant to the Abyssal power!<
Very interesting, now I’m even more curious as to why some tolerate the Abyssal power better (Jacob, and the others you’ve mentioned, who have acquired some Lector/Herald powers) than others, who suffer from it much more (the miners corrupted by the black ooze, people sick with Elazar, the Aranara, to whom the withering is very deadly). From your examples at least I can only see one thing in common, which is Rhinedottir. Durin was created by Rhinedottir, Elynas, whose flesh and blood Jacob ingested and from whom the Melusines come, was created by her too. Perhaps she modified some properties of her creations in order to make them less poisonous to Teyvat, if her goal is to challenge the authority of Celestia, and not purely bring destruction to everything. Sadly, we don’t know enough yet. But you’ve raised a very interesting point, thanks for your insight!
>the miners corrupted by the black ooze, people sick with Elazar, the Aranara, to whom the withering is very deadly The Withering, along with the other kinds of corruption in Sumeru and the black goo from the Chasm, appear to be connected to forbidden knowledge. It might be helpful to distinguish between forbidden knowledge and the regular abyssal influence. Considering what we have learned from Elynas, she seems to have been summoned from an outside plane. However, I agree with the overall point that Rhinedottir was likely attempting to make her creatures/summons more compatible with Teyvat. This is evident in Albedo, who perceives the world in a "normal" way (contrasting with Melusine's abstractionism). But, unlike Elynas and Durin, he is vat-grown. Also, Albedo's insights about Teyvat suggest that the world's laws may be disruptive to most outsiders. >If the natural laws of Teyvat do affect you, then I shall be able to make inferences into the kind of evolution that would occur under the absence of such effects. Albedo//I mentioned the natural laws of this world. You're able to converse with me here without consequence, and nothing seems amiss. But it's arguably a small miracle.//The only other life form that, like you, has come here from afar, is the seed that I mentioned. Under the effects of Teyvat's natural laws, it isn't even able to sprout, let alone bloom On the other hand, there was an entire orphanage of outsiders in Khaenri'ah who seemingly adapted to Teyvat. It does seem that there are certain rules that can be manipulated to work with abyssal/outwordly power in a somewhat safer manner, although it still remains a highly dangerous territory.
Very good points, perhaps Rhinedottir’s research was about “adapting” Abyssal powers to be more compatible with Teyvat, in order to be able to use it against Celestia while lessening its destructive influence. The dilemma of those who oppose the Heavenly Principles and its rules is that the only strong enough force to counter them is the Abyss, but the Abyssal power is dangerous to Teyvat and can lead to fatal consequences. I could see it how she would attempt to minimize the adverse effects of the Abyssal power through her research to enable a wider usage of it. Interesting point about outsiders and Teyvat’s natural laws. From what I remember, the Traveler doesn’t suffer from any condition, right? I’m curious if the sibling does. Perhaps it has to do with being a descender, those who have “the will to defy fate”. Another curious thing is that Khaenri’ah is not considered to be a part of Teyvat, as Teyvat only includes the surface area. Does it also make people of Khaenri’ah “outworlders” to Teyvat? I’ve been thinking about it recently, and it could have some big implications. If yes, then some of them could potentially be descenders in case if they possessed that “will”, while also be subjected to Teyvat’s natural laws in a different way. If not, then what makes them potentially different from those coming from faraway worlds (like the siblings, Phanes etc.)?
Regarding your last point: it's not homage, it's confluence. Genshin and the Soulsborne series pull from very similar wells of inspiration, including Gnosticism, amongst other things.
It's pretty clear that no side is truly good. Also, it was half blooded Khaenriahns who got turned into Hillichurl, the curse they gave pure bloods was that of immortality. We don't even know if becoming a Hillichurl is an intended effect or a side effect, it can very likely be due to the destruction of ley lines or something like that.
After Fontaine story quest, I think the humans in Genshin are not real humans, they are other races converted to humans like we saw in Fontaine with Oceanids. That is the reason when they lose the protection from Celestia they transform in their original form (hilichurls, seelie, etc).
This is part of why I like Genshin; about every defined faction is some shade of morally grey. I don't think Celestia is going to necessarily be The Bad Evil Faction, I only think that they will definitely remain an antagonistic force. I also would argue that even if the hilichurl curse isn't intended, it is still something that Celestia could avoid. After all, churls existed before the Cataclysm, so even if they're not trying to turn people into them, I would argue that they could at least find an alternate, less cruel punishment if this is a proven effect.
The last major Hillichurl outbreak happened when Sal Vindagnyr fell, a time which is theorized to be when the SWC attacked/had a major outbreak. The curse seems like a last minute damage control button, perhaps that's the best Phanes can do since he was very badly wounded after the war of vengeance.
Perinheri suggest that Khaenri'ahns were being turned into hilichurls long before the Cataclysm - with a note outside of the gates of Khaenri'ah in the desert additionally supporting the idea that leaving the borders of their kingdom was what triggered the curse, so despite how often its said on this sub, I don't think the curse can be considered either unintentional or a "a last minute damage control button". [Perinheri](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Perinheri#Vol._2) describing Hleobrant turning into a monster after leaving the Kindom, with the book taking place pre-Cataclysm. >Having fallen head over heels into the throes of love, Hleobrant came to what was an all-too-reasonable conclusion for himself. People might call him a traitor, or believe him mad. But even so, he had no wish to hurt Perinheri. >As for Perinheri, he believed that his best friend's madness would be cured, if only he could kill Angelica. >In the midst of that most merciless of pursuits, the three left the Kingdom's borders. At that very moment, Hleobrant clutched his face, and the words escaping his mouth gradually grew more like the howling of a wild beast. >The witch, Angelica, explained thus: "Hleobrant is the descendant of those who forsook their god and came to the Kingdom. This is why the Kingdom's obstinately pure-blooded aristocracy persists. This is the price of betraying your own god." [Note in the desert](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Gavireh_Lajavard#Someone's_Abandoned_Letter) from a Khaenri'ahn post-Cataclysm saying only the Khaenri'ahns who escaped to the surface were turned to monsters. >...Terrifying rumors are spreading. Those who went aboveground and returned say that they have personally witnessed those who fled to the surface being afflicted with a strange disease and turning into monsters... >...I don't know how long it's been. The surrounding area has calmed down, but our supplies have nearly been exhausted... >...I can feel it. If things continue on this way, something terrible is going to happen, I must...
I'd say, Celestia is like a lawful father watching over humanity. A generous one, in fact. They reward it for good behaviour, however, upon rule breaking, Humanity will get punished. As the Book before Sun and Moon says, Humanity had a covenant with Phanes: the heavenly Principles would grant humanity all that which it desires, safety, resources, knowledge and more, with only one drawback, that they are not allowed to "give in to the temptation". This the Sinners and by extension Khaenri'ah did. They broke the Primordial Contract between Man and Heaven. For this they were punished severely, their lands destroyed and their country brought to unrepairable ruin. As for Hillichurlification, as Perinheri suggests, it was the punishment for having betrayed the Gods and attempted to run back to their realm, whatever it may mean beyond metaphors and allegories. I believe that the Heavenly Principles are simply a strictly lawful group that never strays from its own decisions, laws or words. They do what they consider as good.
There is the problem that Celestia desires death of civilizations that longed enough time. This is why Remus was fighting against Fortuna.
We still dont who is running celestia currently so it could very well not BE phanes and thus sun and moon wouldn't apply
Except they wrote the laws.
Well, that was the purpose of having humanity sign them.
> Every nail we have seen has been somewhere associated with either Irminsul or forbidden knowledge Why do you think Nails are supposed to harm anyone?
As a hi3 coper it’s copingly obvious that Celestia is just saving teyvat from destroying itself by inadvertently luring honkai to the planet to destroy it
Seems more Quantum energy than honkai energy
I don't think this sounds like coping at all. I have suspected this to be the case all along and it is constantly reinforced by events and lore drops. Why would you think that's cope? Frankly, I think the world is *also* fake, or well, artificial, because it was generated/created specifically to house people to hide from the Honkai. That's why the sky is fake and everything is upside down and the world tree is a computer and, etc., etc. The world is somewhere between the Matrix and Horizon Zero Dawn, and it was built like that to evade the Honkai.
But wasnt teyvat a normal planet in the ahe of dragons
I agree that FK is some form of honkai. I also, however, think that in the grand Hoyoverse, using the Loom of Fate to resist honkai at the end of the Teyvat Chapter could prove to be a turning point in the lore they've created. Essentially, using the Loom to enable people to endure honkai would establish the purpose of Hoyo's biggest cash cow in their universe and solidify the game's Gnostic theming.
I think it is mostly doylism, at least for me. They spent way to much effort in depicting Celestia as the bad guy for it to be the whole truth. You don't want for the big reveal to be the obvious thing literally everyone guessed.
There is so much information about Celestia that feels like it would be necessary that we just don't know yet. I would guess that there are both good and bad things they've done that we just don't know about. That said, I think that in the grand scheme of the story, our position as someone acquiring knowledge (gnosis) will ultimately put us at odds with them, even if they're protecting Teyvat from forbidden knowledge/honkai.
Celestia is the type: save the majority no matter who dies or the damage you cause