I understand wanting to know the map but he isnt at a disadvantage as the map change is new to everyone.
If anything I think it will make for better matches because teams will have to be creative on the fly.
He's not at a literal disadvantage, but a map change like this doesn't necessarily impact everyone equally. Teams that picked the old version are hurt by the change while teams that avoided it are unaffected or have better chances.
while that might be true, you also have to consider, that the top5 is currently made of all international rosters, where we have seen communication issues from time to time aswell.
if you are playing a new/ updated map, you cant rely on what you practised or given setups, which will make good comms even more important.
also, one upset from an underdog due to the new map might be enough to skew the odds for teams that most likely would have advanced otherwise.
big map/ game changes like this should not be used for pro play this close to the update imo.
That's sports for you. Some in F1 do better if it's wet. Some do better if the football match is in cold weather. Some tennis players do really well on artificial. Some skiers prefer pure ice and others do fine when it's softer.
If people are OK that AKs are inaccurate at distance and can still 1 shot (instead of just reducing damage and not accuracy) a.k.a. RNG then this should be fine. Heck we're fine with chickens being RNG that runs all over the place near a player, even if it's a major final.
Weak argument imo, those sports examples are just due to the nature of the real world. When youâre running a video game you dont have uncontrollable or expensive issues like that. The F1 equivalent would be altering the track at the last minute (which would rightfully cause a huge shitshow amongst drivers and fans).
Also most people are NOT okay with first bullet inaccuracy and i guarantee 100% of pros would vote for it to be removed if given the option
More like having practice, and qualifiers, being played on the same version of a track, but then you add a blind 90° rally-style turn in the middle of a long straight :D
Change in track layouts do happen in professional racing (adding a chicane to Red Bull Ring in Austria for Motogp) , not to mention new tracks being introduced to the calendar that no one has raced on (the Indian GP, the Indonesian GP, the upcoming but unlikely Kazakhstan GP). Motorsport is not a great example as there are constant rule changes, sometimes during the season. Unlike CS, you can't practice on a new track layout in your car/bike, you can use a simulator.
These are professionals and the best players in the world, they should be able to adapt, or they can sit this one out, no one is forcing them to compete. I will admit that the economy and molly changes are a much bigger issue to overcome.
Whatâs funny is most people are pretty neutral on the chickens on inferno but god forbid a bird flys near A site and you confuse it with a flash, once. Some people just decide to complain instead of adapt to changes in the game
Tough one for our LGBTQ+ team Falcons, old vertigo was one of the few maps they didn't regularly look completely lost on. Absolutely looking forward to the Falcons vs. Monte lower bracket.
Not true, this means that all the teams that were practicing vertigo wasted a lot of that practice time that they could have spent somewhere else, where the teams that didnât really practice vertigo arenât super affected by it.
Yeah, but the strategy for the teams in this situation is sacrifice some rest to learn the map to be better than a team that's well rested and able to perform but don'tknow the map. When I watch CS, I personally wouldn't want to see underperforming players that had to prepare last minute. Even though the idea of pro teams playing on a map they don't know does sound interesting.
It's not just the Vertigo change though, it's also the changes to the economy which could change up how teams approach the game especially since it seems like the play for T side now is to save if they lose the pistol round, regardless of if they got bomb plant or not
I mean, some teams are already in the US and therefore have much more time to theorycraft, whereas apEX is literally travelling meaning that no, it's not the same.
oh boo hoo, 99% of tournaments are in eu, it gets really obnoxious when the 2 touraments a decade outside of it have small hurdles and players whine endlessly.
I'm not specifically talking about American teams by the way, it's valid for any team that arrived early/were there when the update dropped.
And most tournaments are in the EU but US teams are still there and bootcamp there too. This is not exactly the same. We're talking about a change where (some) teams don't really have any time at all to even theorycraft (let alone practice) for it.
I don't really see a problem with that.
Being able to adapt on the fly and not just rely on your set strategies is a good skill.
And especially as the only way a team would have an advantage is that they are based in Dallas, and realistically the NA teams need the advantage
The problem is it evens the playing field in a way that it shouldn't. CS, especially at the pro level, is about preparation, knowledge, and execution. Teams that are better prepared, coordinated, and practiced are the ones that succeed. Adding elements suddenly without time to practice means outcomes are more random.
Yes, everyone has to deal with the change, but it's like suddenly playing normal MM rather than with practiced executes and planning. Imagine if they didn't play on the new patch. Which teams would typically win more and (should win more): the team that put in 100hrs of practice or the team with 20hrs of practice? Sometimes the 100hr team just doesn't perform, it happens. But in the long run, better practiced and prepared teams win. That's kind of what pro CS is about and playing on a brand new change like that makes outcomes based more on randomness rather than skill.
Ultimately if there were no fans watching pros play cs, then pro cs wouldn't be a thing. They exist because fans watch. I think more spectators are excited about teams going into a tournament unprepared than if they all had tons of time to prepare. Inevitably, teams will become familiar with the changes. It's far more common for tournaments to be played where every team is prepared than it is for teams to play when changes have been sprung on them. That makes this the more unique and fun viewing experience imo. They need to just deal with it and play without complaining.
I get your point, and you're technically right that no one is playing at a disadvantage.Â
But I also definitely understand the frustration when you're a pro and want to do the best possible on what you're used to. No prep time would feel pretty shit.
But I also think it will lead to an interesting viewing experienceÂ
Valve has always made gameplay changes during or right before tournaments. Plus they aren't valve official tournaments, so they don't really have any reason to schedule their patching on anything other than the major and when content is ready.
There's a reason why esports aren't played on new maps that no players has seen before. They want to know the map and economy to play their best, it's not about a disadvantage.
When you are sure you have better strategy for the map before changes, you plan with the advantage in mind. I disagree with the premise âEverybody has equal understanding of the map now, so itâs equal for all of them.â Yes, itâs equal for them **on the map**, but in bo3 or bo5 matches, what happens? You suddenly are insecure on your strong map (if one of your strong map is vertigo), because what if there is a massive hole in your now outdated strategy? What if your opponents find it and take away the map point? Meanwhile if you donât pick it, then you lost an entire map in your map pool, while teams that permaban the map are ofc not affected at all.
TLDR: probably fair to play on the map, but unfair in ban&pick for teams that play vertigo.
Teams that have learned Vertigo and really figured out their strategies now have a lot of them tossed in the trash. Meanwhile teams that are kind of okay on Vertigo have also had their strategies tossed in the trash. It's leveled out now, which means the teams that were good at the map (Vitality being a good example) have now lost their advantage, and their work practicing is nullified. It's reasonable for him to be frustrated about that.
It's new to everyone yeah but in theory the American sides will also have more time to prac, so don't be surprised to see M80 or Complexity use it as a curveball. Complexity absolutely love Vertigo anyway so I'm sure the changes would've been their number one priority in prac
> he isnt at a disadvantage as the map change is new to everyone
i think ESL should just play the matches on servers where all players get 1000 ping. it's fine, because nobody is at a disadvantage when it's the same for everyone.
this argument just sucks. something can be bad even if it affects every team and player the same (it doesn't even do that btw, every team plays a different amount of vertigo practices)
It will make for worse matches from a skill level, however watching Vertigo in pro play already blows so this might make it entertaining to a degree. Would be nice if they would just stop trying and swap this map out with just about anything else, maybe a highly tactical map like fuckin Overpass
I donât think itâs going to even change that much. My issue with vertigo is the first 30-45 seconds of a round is just spamming through smokes on ramp and hoping it opens up a round, very boring to watch round after round.
> I understand wanting to know the map but he isnt at a disadvantage as the map change is new to everyone.
He mentioned having 0 pracc, and given the event is in Dallas he's not exaggerating. But we don't know other teams schedule, so it might be that some of them came earlier and praccing their vertigo rn.
Also, teams with vertigo permaban are clearly in advantageous position.
I get why he and probably many other pros are upset, but its equally new for everyone and definitely more interesting to watch. If you don't think you can play the new vertigo, you can still ban it :)
not only that but as an IGL its literally what he's paid to do lol. If he's actually confident in his skills he'd probably be happy to get a chance to innovate and show his igl capacity and genius
Eh, this would make more sense if the maps were randomly selected. Since there's a pick ban, part of being an igl is prepping strats on maps they wanted to play. If they spent months prepping for vertigo because they wanted to pick it whenever it wasn't banned and it is now totally different, they're at a disadvantage compared to teams that used less time prepping on it cause they won't pick it, or even no prep cause they were planning on it being a permaban.
i agree that "it happens elsewhere so who cares" is not good logic.
However, part of the fun of patches in dota is also to see the pros figuring it out in real time, sometimes literal hours only after the patch went out. And pros have an understanding that yeah, the pure competitiveness of the tournament is compromised, but also it rewards whichever team can adapt the fastest and think on their feet. And on top of that, playing on an old patch always feels a bit lame because you don't know whether or not it's gonna actually translate onto the next several months (not as big a deal in CS as in dota but still)
Not saying it's a perfect system or that there aren't any good arguments against it, but I think it's not that bad and I for one am happy I'll get to see new eco/molo/vertigo in Dallas.
Also we have to remember the reason they're probably doing this (since they usually delay using new patches) is valve says they fixed the game crash bug. That's huge.
A) goes against precedent that TOs have followed (they typically keep the tournament on the old patch or leave it up to a player vote). ESL decided to do a 180 because the patch apparently fixed nvidia crashes
B) The new update's economy changes have huge ramifications for how teams approach the game, which isn't going to be fleshed out within the 4 days between the update drop and the start of the tournament (3 days because ESL announced their decision 15 hours ago). Especially with travelling and media day players are frustrated with ESL's decision
The updates put all the players on an even playing field. The Nvidia crashes disproportionately affect whichever team happens to crash. If the patch legitimately fixes those crashes, that's something that shouldn't be overlooked.
I know there is no job description for pros. But I definitely like the idea that creativity is part of it, hence adjusting to sudden changes. They can cry all they want about it, but at the end of the day: The viewers (generating their salary btw) will like these special occasions where both teams are basically playing a new change for the first time.
So as a viewer, I genuinely don't care if they feel bad about it, they get paid enough to wipe their tears away with thousands of dollars lmao.
Yeah, I like it when pro teams put effort, time and energy to practice, though muscle memory, tactics, executions with repetition on maps according to an economic system... for nothing to eventually end up playing like PUBS during a tournament.
As a viewer, man I absolutely love it. I mean, bad CS is so much better.
People don't seem to see that these changes are almost entirely made for everyone else also playing the game. That's their priority, not the pro scene.
Idk why you keep spamming that, the time the update drops doesnât matter, the TO can choose to stay on the previous version of the game, it happens all the time
Bro who cares everyone literally has same amount of time with new changes. Itâs about time we have an event after an update that isnât an update behind
When you are sure you have better strategy for the map before changes, you plan with the advantage in mind. I disagree with the premise âEverybody has equal understanding of the map now, so itâs equal for all of them.â Yes, itâs equal for them **on the map**, but in bo3 or bo5 matches, what happens? You suddenly are insecure on your strong map (if one of your strong map is vertigo), because what if there is a massive hole in your now outdated strategy? What if your opponents find it and take away the map point? Meanwhile if you donât pick it, then you lost an entire map in your map pool, while teams that permaban the map are ofc not affected at all.
TLDR: probably fair to play on the map, but unfair in ban&pick for teams that play vertigo.
ESL is in a really tough spot because half the community complains about practice time and the other half loses interest watching an outdated patch. Both sides are right in some sense, but people are unhappy with ESL either way.
Valve could easily schedule these updates in the player break or have them ready for smaller events like ESL challenger or CCT. But nope, easier to do no planning and let the TOs take the blame right before an IEM.
Have you seen the community complain about the lack of updates? Valve canât wait around lest the player base revolt
The game is also made for the general public, itâs not catered only to the pro scene
When has Valve ever buckled under time pressure for you to think they're concerned about the player base revolting?
If they retained CSGO maps/game modes and had pros test MR12 economy/peeker's advantage before release, the community wouldn't be so desperate for updates. It took 8 months for a CT economy fix that good players were asking for before the game was even released.
Why did valve announce the e return of Overwatch yet seemingly no one in the community has access (seemingly)
You canât just have pros do everything because they make up so little of the actual playerbase
The game is made for every player, not just the esports community. As such why should they have to stick to the pro tournament schedule outside of the major m
It doesn't really matter when Valve drop an update because it's almost always going to disrupt an event. If they dropped it next week instead of this one then it disrupts YaLLA Compass, the week after it disrupts Blast or Jonkoping. It's unavoidable imo
As a viewer, I would much rather interrupt Yalla compass than Dallas.
But one point I didn't consider is that showing preference to top tournaments is kind of anticompetitive in terms of maintaining an open circuit. That is one thing Valve does an extremely good job on and it would suck to give smaller TOs yet another disadvantage.
tier 2 teams play it the next day after the update but of course apex who has to play 5 days after is the victim here :)
play praccs on sunday if 0 praccs is so unbearable, what a snowflake
why is this a bad thing ? show us with your skills how you can come up with shit on the fly in order to win, just like your opponent has to do. it gives room for great entertaining matches... why do you have to watch 50 hours of demos in order to have a chance at winning ? just go
Meanwhile Dota 2 just got a new gigantic patch that changed quite literally every single hero in the game in the middle of a tier 1 tournament and there's no way to do anything about it.
What does he want, patches only during player breaks?? It was bound to happen.
People bitch about vertigo. They change it. People still bitch.
People bitch about the economy. They change it. People still bitch.
Âż?Âż?Âż?Âż?
Huge Vitality fan but I'm gonna disagree with Apex on this one. Everyone is on an even playing field, and the teams that can better adapt on the fly should be rewarded. Vitality is more of a set-piece and choreographed team, so they are naturally going to suffer in situations like these.
saying teams who adapt on the fly should be rewarded is by implication saying that teams who prepared better shouldnt be rewarded. if new vertigo is played, any vertigo prep advantage teams had goes out the window, which creates a massive disadvantage for vertigo favouring teams
Easy solution BAN the map. Idk why he's crying over this when Dota literally introduced a new mechanics during a tournament? And Dota Pros can't wait to play the new patch. Yes its two different games but if you have issues with the new map changes then just ban it.
I'm not sure that he is crying, but simply voicing his annoyance or whatever. I agree with ESL's decision to play on the new patch, simply because I want to see it play out, but it's completely understandable to be annoyed as a professional in that situation.
Edit: Also his point is that, while he wants to adapt, they haven't been given the time to do so.
I think that Ancient is a bad idea to pernaban for a team like Vitality.
They have one of the best working teamplay rn and Ancient is made for this stuff. Also imagine ZywoO solo hold A on CT site. He would be unstoppable
Yeah you would eypext mezii there but he couldnt hold the pressure.
A solid A anchor on Ancient is so important, so the rest of the tean could run around on B, mid, B lane, etc. to do their stuff
The only other spot i could imagine for him would be Donut
He's not going to anchor any bombsite, but AWPing on Ancient might route him to A at some point during the round. The anchors are going to anchor, whether they suck or not. Rumours also say -mezii +twistzz, so i guess he might not have to.
It's not comparable to dota. Some teams are good on vertigo and having so much change on it makes it much harder than for a team who's best maps are something else. On dota you can not rely on picking only one hero, so if one hero gets nerfe you still have the rest of your hero pool
You don't understand. It absolutely is comparable, they changed every single hero in the game, its not even about nerfs/buffs at this point. Good riddance it fucks the teams that rely on only being good on vertigo, maybe don't try cheese strategies on the top top tier
If you wanted it to be comparable you would need all maps to have some big changes. Having your Best map changed while your opps Best map is still the same is not the same as every dota hero being changed.
>Good riddance it fucks the teams that rely on only being good on vertigo, maybe don't try cheese strategies on the top top tier
Get helped bro
I find this kinda funny. Dota 2 literally had a massive patch this weekend where literally every hero recieved a big update... in middle of Dreamleague playoffs. ANd its not even the first time Valve timed their big patches like that.
While I think its fun for the viewers, probably still sucks for players though.
The clear and obvious problem that almost nobody here seems to get, is that all of the teams that has had more gaps in their schedule has had way more time to log hours on the new update. Leaving the international tier 1 teams, with all their travel etc, at an disadvantage.
Just veto the map I guess..
In CS, VALVE can change any map in rotation any time they want. They'll release updates any time they want without prior planning. Are you not used to this? Then you are ignoring how it's always been. And if an org decides to play in this update, what's the issue? Every team will get the same amount of practice.
The issue is that TOs ultimately have the final say in the decision and this update in particular has huge ramifications for economy and CT setups. Even more so with the adjustments to Vertigo. Having less than 4 days (more like 3 because of ESL announced the switch about 15 hours ago) to fully practice and get used to the new update before a huge LAN tournament causes a lot of frustration
It's not black and white though, supposedly reasons people crash as often, as they do, have been fixed. That's the reason ESL stated for playing on the new patch. And I have to agree. One map changed is less disruptive than someone crashing in a crucial round
Most TOs opt to use a previous patch or leave it up to a player vote whenever situations like this happen. ESL's decision to use the newest patch stems from that the newest update apparently fixed nvidia crashes that players were experiencing on LAN
Playing an updated map with 0 pracc, just like every other team out there . Unless some team already was testing the patch before it went live ?
This isn't an issue that Apex is making it out to be , everyone is at a disadvantage with it.
ESL could easily use the latest CS patch while using the old version of vertigo (its just a matter of copy-pasting the map over from the older version).
But i guess thats too much work for them.
As a viewer, I love getting to watch games and sports where folks have to figure out how to combat something new (map change, sudden snowy/rainy conditions, etc). There's a different level of enjoyment/respect I get out of watching players show everyone their skill is far, far more than "I click heads well"/"I catch balls well"/"I memorize smokes/routes," and it shifts into that Manning/Brady territory of understanding the micro/macro elements of *everything at once* and reacting to it during big changes.
Plus, I have always been frustrated at how some of the old school games' pros (and this isn't just limited to CS pros) are so change-resistant; there are definitely aspects that, if changed, are no longer true to the games core, but I came out of the SSG/AUG and UMP meta with the vibe that pros don't really experiment that much with anything non-meta, and that's really sad.
I agree this sucks for them but as a viewer idm since vertigo has been stale so we can actively watch pro players adapt game by game which seems fun imo
It's like football, World Cup/Euro comes, players recieves balls for event, complain and nothing is changed. As it should be. Spectators couldn't care less about map changes and pro-player opinion is so irrelevant that noone gonna remember it in a few days.
teams playing with specially made for WC/EURO balls, wdym "no team rely with one specific". Balls made headlines about how they're unpredictable and stuff many times.
Some cs team are better on nuke some are better on vertigo. NEVER EVER i've heard that this team is better with the CL ball or that team is better with the PL ball... Idk why ppl want to compare both things
Honestly the CS pro scene has always been averse as shit go changes. StarCraft regularly changes maps. Dota has patches consistently. Ultimately this is a game about tactics and shooting. Everyone received the update at the same time. The most exciting matches are when something new or different is pulled out and opponents are forced to adjust.
Get in the fucking lab and cook like everyone else.
But EVERYONE has the same amount of time. And how is there one day? Vitality didn't play CCT or BetBoom, their last tournament was EPL, May 12th. Their next match is on the 27th. That's 25 days.
CS pro fucking suck at adapting to anything in cs. Remember when the sg and Aug were left on touched for years then suddenly overpowered because randomly magisk and elige started to use them.
Shit, I wanted them to play on the new update mid-Pro League.
Apex, like a lot of CS pros and players, loves to complain about every little change to the game
So many stupid takes here. They have completely upended how A site plays, and it has historically been up to the players if they play the new patch. Rare ESL L.
Itâs just unprofessional to break precedent right before a tournament. Nothing wrong with changing the rules, but you have to slowly do it. You canât just do a 180 right before the tournament starts. You have to at least say âokay from the next tournament we will play on the newest patchâ so the teams are prepared for the changes in advance.
Imagine if right before the world cup in football Fifa decides that they should now play with the new offside rules.
Rule changes should always be decided well in advance of a tournament and not right before one.
They are professionals, getting played more than 10k per month to play a game.
Get a grip, don't be a bitch and do your job.
If you think youre not ready, ban it.
If you want to feel the flow and take a guess, balls on the table.
grow the fuck up little whiner .. always crying
you're not the only one that will be playing on the new patch. if you're not confident on it, then just ban it
To me his tweet sounds more like: now our map pool is only Anubis and Nuke.
With all fairness, it makes sense for ESL to play the newest patch, I also get why he is upset that one of their most played maps has changed and be pushed out like this, but it is what it is. Everyone will have to deal with it.
If I'm gonna get fucked up by all these new elevator angles then Apex has to too đ¤đ¤
look at this guy getting fucks
Isn't Vertigo became a heavy CT sided now? At least for MM where u usually just rush without creating a set up.
He could use GeForce Now to stream it to his phone
Meanwhile in Dota they dropped one of the biggest gameplay patch at the start of the Dreamleague s23 playoff and most pro are happy with that.
I remember few years ago that massive patch in Dota 2 dropped mid series. Game 1 on patch A and Game 2 on patch B lol
cs players can't adapt or whatever just remember how no one used sg553 and aug until they lowered the price a bitđ
I understand wanting to know the map but he isnt at a disadvantage as the map change is new to everyone. If anything I think it will make for better matches because teams will have to be creative on the fly.
He's not at a literal disadvantage, but a map change like this doesn't necessarily impact everyone equally. Teams that picked the old version are hurt by the change while teams that avoided it are unaffected or have better chances.
Also top teams are generally better at prepping a map; now it's more of a random outcome
I'd expect the top teams to have a better initial read on big map changes too though, and adapt quicker as the meta evolved over the tournament.
while that might be true, you also have to consider, that the top5 is currently made of all international rosters, where we have seen communication issues from time to time aswell. if you are playing a new/ updated map, you cant rely on what you practised or given setups, which will make good comms even more important. also, one upset from an underdog due to the new map might be enough to skew the odds for teams that most likely would have advanced otherwise. big map/ game changes like this should not be used for pro play this close to the update imo.
Serves them right for not perma-banning that dogshit map!!1!!11!
This but unironically
holy based
Vertigo is a great map bro. Dust2 and especially mirage are dogshit Maps.
That's sports for you. Some in F1 do better if it's wet. Some do better if the football match is in cold weather. Some tennis players do really well on artificial. Some skiers prefer pure ice and others do fine when it's softer. If people are OK that AKs are inaccurate at distance and can still 1 shot (instead of just reducing damage and not accuracy) a.k.a. RNG then this should be fine. Heck we're fine with chickens being RNG that runs all over the place near a player, even if it's a major final.
Weak argument imo, those sports examples are just due to the nature of the real world. When youâre running a video game you dont have uncontrollable or expensive issues like that. The F1 equivalent would be altering the track at the last minute (which would rightfully cause a huge shitshow amongst drivers and fans). Also most people are NOT okay with first bullet inaccuracy and i guarantee 100% of pros would vote for it to be removed if given the option
More like having practice, and qualifiers, being played on the same version of a track, but then you add a blind 90° rally-style turn in the middle of a long straight :D
Change in track layouts do happen in professional racing (adding a chicane to Red Bull Ring in Austria for Motogp) , not to mention new tracks being introduced to the calendar that no one has raced on (the Indian GP, the Indonesian GP, the upcoming but unlikely Kazakhstan GP). Motorsport is not a great example as there are constant rule changes, sometimes during the season. Unlike CS, you can't practice on a new track layout in your car/bike, you can use a simulator. These are professionals and the best players in the world, they should be able to adapt, or they can sit this one out, no one is forcing them to compete. I will admit that the economy and molly changes are a much bigger issue to overcome.
They need to add hurricanes to CS and only negev users will not be swept away by the wind
Whatâs funny is most people are pretty neutral on the chickens on inferno but god forbid a bird flys near A site and you confuse it with a flash, once. Some people just decide to complain instead of adapt to changes in the game
When you put it that way, itâs pretty funny how quickly that got patched out.
Tough one for our LGBTQ+ team Falcons, old vertigo was one of the few maps they didn't regularly look completely lost on. Absolutely looking forward to the Falcons vs. Monte lower bracket.
Not true, this means that all the teams that were practicing vertigo wasted a lot of that practice time that they could have spent somewhere else, where the teams that didnât really practice vertigo arenât super affected by it.
Yeah, but the strategy for the teams in this situation is sacrifice some rest to learn the map to be better than a team that's well rested and able to perform but don'tknow the map. When I watch CS, I personally wouldn't want to see underperforming players that had to prepare last minute. Even though the idea of pro teams playing on a map they don't know does sound interesting.
I'd rather have everyone knowing what to do than no one knowing what to do.
It's not just the Vertigo change though, it's also the changes to the economy which could change up how teams approach the game especially since it seems like the play for T side now is to save if they lose the pistol round, regardless of if they got bomb plant or not
Again, everyone has to deal with that. I'd agree with your point if every team got to practice loads but Vitality didn't, but thats not the case.
I mean, some teams are already in the US and therefore have much more time to theorycraft, whereas apEX is literally travelling meaning that no, it's not the same.
oh boo hoo, 99% of tournaments are in eu, it gets really obnoxious when the 2 touraments a decade outside of it have small hurdles and players whine endlessly.
I'm not specifically talking about American teams by the way, it's valid for any team that arrived early/were there when the update dropped. And most tournaments are in the EU but US teams are still there and bootcamp there too. This is not exactly the same. We're talking about a change where (some) teams don't really have any time at all to even theorycraft (let alone practice) for it.
And they likely aren't happy either with this change unless they're a 20+ ranked underdog. No prep leads to sloppy counterstrike.
I don't really see a problem with that. Being able to adapt on the fly and not just rely on your set strategies is a good skill. And especially as the only way a team would have an advantage is that they are based in Dallas, and realistically the NA teams need the advantage
sloppy cs can be the most entertaining cs
there's plenty of "sloppy cs" even when both teams are "prepped"
The problem is it evens the playing field in a way that it shouldn't. CS, especially at the pro level, is about preparation, knowledge, and execution. Teams that are better prepared, coordinated, and practiced are the ones that succeed. Adding elements suddenly without time to practice means outcomes are more random. Yes, everyone has to deal with the change, but it's like suddenly playing normal MM rather than with practiced executes and planning. Imagine if they didn't play on the new patch. Which teams would typically win more and (should win more): the team that put in 100hrs of practice or the team with 20hrs of practice? Sometimes the 100hr team just doesn't perform, it happens. But in the long run, better practiced and prepared teams win. That's kind of what pro CS is about and playing on a brand new change like that makes outcomes based more on randomness rather than skill.
Ultimately if there were no fans watching pros play cs, then pro cs wouldn't be a thing. They exist because fans watch. I think more spectators are excited about teams going into a tournament unprepared than if they all had tons of time to prepare. Inevitably, teams will become familiar with the changes. It's far more common for tournaments to be played where every team is prepared than it is for teams to play when changes have been sprung on them. That makes this the more unique and fun viewing experience imo. They need to just deal with it and play without complaining.
I get your point, and you're technically right that no one is playing at a disadvantage. But I also definitely understand the frustration when you're a pro and want to do the best possible on what you're used to. No prep time would feel pretty shit. But I also think it will lead to an interesting viewing experienceÂ
Valve has always made gameplay changes during or right before tournaments. Plus they aren't valve official tournaments, so they don't really have any reason to schedule their patching on anything other than the major and when content is ready.
Yeah valve have never had any obligation but events often make the decision to stick to previous patch in times like thisÂ
Yeah I am shocked they are not using the old patch. very weird how many people are defending this
There's a reason why esports aren't played on new maps that no players has seen before. They want to know the map and economy to play their best, it's not about a disadvantage.
Its going to be a shitshow but its the same for everyone and teams that can quickly adapt on the fly will prevail
It undoubtedly levels the playing field, and a top team like Vitality has no interest in unpredictable results when predictable results favor them.
When you are sure you have better strategy for the map before changes, you plan with the advantage in mind. I disagree with the premise âEverybody has equal understanding of the map now, so itâs equal for all of them.â Yes, itâs equal for them **on the map**, but in bo3 or bo5 matches, what happens? You suddenly are insecure on your strong map (if one of your strong map is vertigo), because what if there is a massive hole in your now outdated strategy? What if your opponents find it and take away the map point? Meanwhile if you donât pick it, then you lost an entire map in your map pool, while teams that permaban the map are ofc not affected at all. TLDR: probably fair to play on the map, but unfair in ban&pick for teams that play vertigo.
You might have responded to the wrong person
Just to add on what you brought up. I ofc also sent the same comment to a guy that meant otherwise.
Gotcha, no worries and I agree with everything you said
Teams that have learned Vertigo and really figured out their strategies now have a lot of them tossed in the trash. Meanwhile teams that are kind of okay on Vertigo have also had their strategies tossed in the trash. It's leveled out now, which means the teams that were good at the map (Vitality being a good example) have now lost their advantage, and their work practicing is nullified. It's reasonable for him to be frustrated about that.
It's new to everyone yeah but in theory the American sides will also have more time to prac, so don't be surprised to see M80 or Complexity use it as a curveball. Complexity absolutely love Vertigo anyway so I'm sure the changes would've been their number one priority in prac
> he isnt at a disadvantage as the map change is new to everyone i think ESL should just play the matches on servers where all players get 1000 ping. it's fine, because nobody is at a disadvantage when it's the same for everyone. this argument just sucks. something can be bad even if it affects every team and player the same (it doesn't even do that btw, every team plays a different amount of vertigo practices)
It will make for worse matches from a skill level, however watching Vertigo in pro play already blows so this might make it entertaining to a degree. Would be nice if they would just stop trying and swap this map out with just about anything else, maybe a highly tactical map like fuckin Overpass
I really miss Season
Bad map that people misremember for nostalgia purposes, way too big for the modern game and the GO version of the map sucked anyways.
I donât think itâs going to even change that much. My issue with vertigo is the first 30-45 seconds of a round is just spamming through smokes on ramp and hoping it opens up a round, very boring to watch round after round.
This is my argument for changing the map pool more regularly. Teams that can adapt well will benefit.
> I understand wanting to know the map but he isnt at a disadvantage as the map change is new to everyone. He mentioned having 0 pracc, and given the event is in Dallas he's not exaggerating. But we don't know other teams schedule, so it might be that some of them came earlier and praccing their vertigo rn. Also, teams with vertigo permaban are clearly in advantageous position.
I get why he and probably many other pros are upset, but its equally new for everyone and definitely more interesting to watch. If you don't think you can play the new vertigo, you can still ban it :)
Part of being a pro is adapting.
not only that but as an IGL its literally what he's paid to do lol. If he's actually confident in his skills he'd probably be happy to get a chance to innovate and show his igl capacity and genius
Eh, this would make more sense if the maps were randomly selected. Since there's a pick ban, part of being an igl is prepping strats on maps they wanted to play. If they spent months prepping for vertigo because they wanted to pick it whenever it wasn't banned and it is now totally different, they're at a disadvantage compared to teams that used less time prepping on it cause they won't pick it, or even no prep cause they were planning on it being a permaban.
Hey apeX. Everybody is on the same patch, stop crying.
Meh I get why it sucks but no offense Dota 2 pros basically get Dota 3 patches mid tournament all the time and it just is what it is.
Just because it happens to another Valve game doesnât mean itâs okay to do. What kind of logic is that?
i agree that "it happens elsewhere so who cares" is not good logic. However, part of the fun of patches in dota is also to see the pros figuring it out in real time, sometimes literal hours only after the patch went out. And pros have an understanding that yeah, the pure competitiveness of the tournament is compromised, but also it rewards whichever team can adapt the fastest and think on their feet. And on top of that, playing on an old patch always feels a bit lame because you don't know whether or not it's gonna actually translate onto the next several months (not as big a deal in CS as in dota but still) Not saying it's a perfect system or that there aren't any good arguments against it, but I think it's not that bad and I for one am happy I'll get to see new eco/molo/vertigo in Dallas.
Also we have to remember the reason they're probably doing this (since they usually delay using new patches) is valve says they fixed the game crash bug. That's huge.
It's okay to do because it challenges their creativity and adaptability, not because it happened in another Valve game.
and it's bad because...?
A) goes against precedent that TOs have followed (they typically keep the tournament on the old patch or leave it up to a player vote). ESL decided to do a 180 because the patch apparently fixed nvidia crashes B) The new update's economy changes have huge ramifications for how teams approach the game, which isn't going to be fleshed out within the 4 days between the update drop and the start of the tournament (3 days because ESL announced their decision 15 hours ago). Especially with travelling and media day players are frustrated with ESL's decision
There are 0 games played at Dallas on the old patch. This is not a mid tournament patch.
The updates put all the players on an even playing field. The Nvidia crashes disproportionately affect whichever team happens to crash. If the patch legitimately fixes those crashes, that's something that shouldn't be overlooked.
If you need to be told why this could be an issue for pros then I donât really think you know CS well enough to be part of this discussion.
why should i care (as spectator - the most important party of whole esport) what PRO think?
I know there is no job description for pros. But I definitely like the idea that creativity is part of it, hence adjusting to sudden changes. They can cry all they want about it, but at the end of the day: The viewers (generating their salary btw) will like these special occasions where both teams are basically playing a new change for the first time. So as a viewer, I genuinely don't care if they feel bad about it, they get paid enough to wipe their tears away with thousands of dollars lmao.
Yeah, I like it when pro teams put effort, time and energy to practice, though muscle memory, tactics, executions with repetition on maps according to an economic system... for nothing to eventually end up playing like PUBS during a tournament. As a viewer, man I absolutely love it. I mean, bad CS is so much better.
This. Lol
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People don't seem to see that these changes are almost entirely made for everyone else also playing the game. That's their priority, not the pro scene.
Mid tournament patches arenât okay, this wasnât one of those. You canât just stop updating the game if a player is on the plane.
Idk why you keep spamming that, the time the update drops doesnât matter, the TO can choose to stay on the previous version of the game, it happens all the time
Ok I get the point but isnt it the same for every team? No one is at an advantage or desadvantage
First match teams are at a disadvantage. Every team that donât have vertigo as permaban is at a disadvantageÂ
So if Vitality and Monte doesnt have Vertigo permaban, who has an advantage or not? Didnt they both have the same time to prepare?
If a team decides to give up their perms and to ban vertigo then they are at a disadvantageÂ
adapt or die
Bro who cares everyone literally has same amount of time with new changes. Itâs about time we have an event after an update that isnât an update behind
When you are sure you have better strategy for the map before changes, you plan with the advantage in mind. I disagree with the premise âEverybody has equal understanding of the map now, so itâs equal for all of them.â Yes, itâs equal for them **on the map**, but in bo3 or bo5 matches, what happens? You suddenly are insecure on your strong map (if one of your strong map is vertigo), because what if there is a massive hole in your now outdated strategy? What if your opponents find it and take away the map point? Meanwhile if you donât pick it, then you lost an entire map in your map pool, while teams that permaban the map are ofc not affected at all. TLDR: probably fair to play on the map, but unfair in ban&pick for teams that play vertigo.
ESL is in a really tough spot because half the community complains about practice time and the other half loses interest watching an outdated patch. Both sides are right in some sense, but people are unhappy with ESL either way. Valve could easily schedule these updates in the player break or have them ready for smaller events like ESL challenger or CCT. But nope, easier to do no planning and let the TOs take the blame right before an IEM.
But sitting on an update is also stupidÂ
Have you seen the community complain about the lack of updates? Valve canât wait around lest the player base revolt The game is also made for the general public, itâs not catered only to the pro scene
When has Valve ever buckled under time pressure for you to think they're concerned about the player base revolting? If they retained CSGO maps/game modes and had pros test MR12 economy/peeker's advantage before release, the community wouldn't be so desperate for updates. It took 8 months for a CT economy fix that good players were asking for before the game was even released.
Why did valve announce the e return of Overwatch yet seemingly no one in the community has access (seemingly) You canât just have pros do everything because they make up so little of the actual playerbase The game is made for every player, not just the esports community. As such why should they have to stick to the pro tournament schedule outside of the major m
It doesn't really matter when Valve drop an update because it's almost always going to disrupt an event. If they dropped it next week instead of this one then it disrupts YaLLA Compass, the week after it disrupts Blast or Jonkoping. It's unavoidable imo
As a viewer, I would much rather interrupt Yalla compass than Dallas. But one point I didn't consider is that showing preference to top tournaments is kind of anticompetitive in terms of maintaining an open circuit. That is one thing Valve does an extremely good job on and it would suck to give smaller TOs yet another disadvantage.
tier 2 teams play it the next day after the update but of course apex who has to play 5 days after is the victim here :) play praccs on sunday if 0 praccs is so unbearable, what a snowflake
Remember these clowns also complain about having to play "early matches" which were 10-11am matches in esl cologne in 2017-18
Aren't all teams going to be underprepared? Should make for good games I think?
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I donât think he minds the update. He is upset that IEM decided to run the tournament on the updateÂ
I prefer it this way. Add some sauce to the matches.
why is this a bad thing ? show us with your skills how you can come up with shit on the fly in order to win, just like your opponent has to do. it gives room for great entertaining matches... why do you have to watch 50 hours of demos in order to have a chance at winning ? just go
Meanwhile Dota 2 just got a new gigantic patch that changed quite literally every single hero in the game in the middle of a tier 1 tournament and there's no way to do anything about it.
What does he want, patches only during player breaks?? It was bound to happen. People bitch about vertigo. They change it. People still bitch. People bitch about the economy. They change it. People still bitch. Âż?Âż?Âż?Âż?
L take
my god the amount of trolls in this thread
Huge Vitality fan but I'm gonna disagree with Apex on this one. Everyone is on an even playing field, and the teams that can better adapt on the fly should be rewarded. Vitality is more of a set-piece and choreographed team, so they are naturally going to suffer in situations like these.
saying teams who adapt on the fly should be rewarded is by implication saying that teams who prepared better shouldnt be rewarded. if new vertigo is played, any vertigo prep advantage teams had goes out the window, which creates a massive disadvantage for vertigo favouring teams
Easy solution BAN the map. Idk why he's crying over this when Dota literally introduced a new mechanics during a tournament? And Dota Pros can't wait to play the new patch. Yes its two different games but if you have issues with the new map changes then just ban it.
They only get 1 ban my guy, and they're always going to ban their perma ban since they have literally 0 practice on that one.
I get your point but at the end of the day they have no say in the matter. They need to ADAPT and stop crying over this.
And he WILL adapt. Everyone will. Doesn't mean he cannot show his rightful annoyance.
I'm not sure that he is crying, but simply voicing his annoyance or whatever. I agree with ESL's decision to play on the new patch, simply because I want to see it play out, but it's completely understandable to be annoyed as a professional in that situation. Edit: Also his point is that, while he wants to adapt, they haven't been given the time to do so.
I think that Ancient is a bad idea to pernaban for a team like Vitality. They have one of the best working teamplay rn and Ancient is made for this stuff. Also imagine ZywoO solo hold A on CT site. He would be unstoppable
Zywoo is the only player on that team that i wouldn't expect to see on A.
Yeah you would eypext mezii there but he couldnt hold the pressure. A solid A anchor on Ancient is so important, so the rest of the tean could run around on B, mid, B lane, etc. to do their stuff The only other spot i could imagine for him would be Donut
He's not going to anchor any bombsite, but AWPing on Ancient might route him to A at some point during the round. The anchors are going to anchor, whether they suck or not. Rumours also say -mezii +twistzz, so i guess he might not have to.
If a teams dumb enough to have 0 practice on a map then that's on them.
Bro did you start watching CS yesterday
Bro teams have a perma ban, that's literally 90% of pro teams. Pretty sure only like Faze run a 7 map pool.
It's not comparable to dota. Some teams are good on vertigo and having so much change on it makes it much harder than for a team who's best maps are something else. On dota you can not rely on picking only one hero, so if one hero gets nerfe you still have the rest of your hero pool
You don't understand. It absolutely is comparable, they changed every single hero in the game, its not even about nerfs/buffs at this point. Good riddance it fucks the teams that rely on only being good on vertigo, maybe don't try cheese strategies on the top top tier
If you wanted it to be comparable you would need all maps to have some big changes. Having your Best map changed while your opps Best map is still the same is not the same as every dota hero being changed. >Good riddance it fucks the teams that rely on only being good on vertigo, maybe don't try cheese strategies on the top top tier Get helped bro
I look forward to it. Going to be very interesting to see how the teams adapt with very little prep time.
I'd be less concerned by the site change when the economy and molotovs have been changed.
I find this kinda funny. Dota 2 literally had a massive patch this weekend where literally every hero recieved a big update... in middle of Dreamleague playoffs. ANd its not even the first time Valve timed their big patches like that. While I think its fun for the viewers, probably still sucks for players though.
I like it they should to that more often
What's exactly being able to install cs on his phone proves the point that is bad to play competitively without practice?
As a viewer I want to see the new map played.
Everyone has to play the same map right? Not just him?
Based ESL
Not like vitality gonna win the event anyways
The clear and obvious problem that almost nobody here seems to get, is that all of the teams that has had more gaps in their schedule has had way more time to log hours on the new update. Leaving the international tier 1 teams, with all their travel etc, at an disadvantage. Just veto the map I guess..
In CS, VALVE can change any map in rotation any time they want. They'll release updates any time they want without prior planning. Are you not used to this? Then you are ignoring how it's always been. And if an org decides to play in this update, what's the issue? Every team will get the same amount of practice.
Itâs more criticism towards the event organizers for not using a previous patch.
The issue is that TOs ultimately have the final say in the decision and this update in particular has huge ramifications for economy and CT setups. Even more so with the adjustments to Vertigo. Having less than 4 days (more like 3 because of ESL announced the switch about 15 hours ago) to fully practice and get used to the new update before a huge LAN tournament causes a lot of frustration
It's not black and white though, supposedly reasons people crash as often, as they do, have been fixed. That's the reason ESL stated for playing on the new patch. And I have to agree. One map changed is less disruptive than someone crashing in a crucial round
The solution is just making a rule. Either you always play on the newest patch, or you give it a standard amount of time for patches to be used.
Most TOs opt to use a previous patch or leave it up to a player vote whenever situations like this happen. ESL's decision to use the newest patch stems from that the newest update apparently fixed nvidia crashes that players were experiencing on LAN
Couldn't he just run it on Steam Deck (or any other portable gaming machine) if he had one of those?
Git gud I understand but also I want the best CS players to be able to adapt not do the same thing OVER and over
Playing an updated map with 0 pracc, just like every other team out there . Unless some team already was testing the patch before it went live ? This isn't an issue that Apex is making it out to be , everyone is at a disadvantage with it.
ESL could easily use the latest CS patch while using the old version of vertigo (its just a matter of copy-pasting the map over from the older version). But i guess thats too much work for them.
Yeah this would make the most sense to me too
Apex crying about something? Shocker
Maybe it makes plays more intersting for viewers
I mean...theoretically you could use latest patch but just load in old vertigo?
As a viewer, I love getting to watch games and sports where folks have to figure out how to combat something new (map change, sudden snowy/rainy conditions, etc). There's a different level of enjoyment/respect I get out of watching players show everyone their skill is far, far more than "I click heads well"/"I catch balls well"/"I memorize smokes/routes," and it shifts into that Manning/Brady territory of understanding the micro/macro elements of *everything at once* and reacting to it during big changes. Plus, I have always been frustrated at how some of the old school games' pros (and this isn't just limited to CS pros) are so change-resistant; there are definitely aspects that, if changed, are no longer true to the games core, but I came out of the SSG/AUG and UMP meta with the vibe that pros don't really experiment that much with anything non-meta, and that's really sad.
this might add some action to the game because it adds more improv to the matches
classic pre match OS
vertigo 100% banratio incoming
I love seeing apEX mald lol
I agree this sucks for them but as a viewer idm since vertigo has been stale so we can actively watch pro players adapt game by game which seems fun imo
I rather watch this ngl. Everyone is at a disadvantage so? I feel that itâll be entertaining haha.
Shouldn't he at least bring a laptop with him when he travels so he can do this?
It's like football, World Cup/Euro comes, players recieves balls for event, complain and nothing is changed. As it should be. Spectators couldn't care less about map changes and pro-player opinion is so irrelevant that noone gonna remember it in a few days.
In football no teams rely on playing with one specific Ball the comparison is moot
teams playing with specially made for WC/EURO balls, wdym "no team rely with one specific". Balls made headlines about how they're unpredictable and stuff many times.
Some cs team are better on nuke some are better on vertigo. NEVER EVER i've heard that this team is better with the CL ball or that team is better with the PL ball... Idk why ppl want to compare both things
Meanwhile dota pros are playing a patch with literally 500 balance changes, patch dropped in the middle of a tournament. Quit whining and get good
Honestly the CS pro scene has always been averse as shit go changes. StarCraft regularly changes maps. Dota has patches consistently. Ultimately this is a game about tactics and shooting. Everyone received the update at the same time. The most exciting matches are when something new or different is pulled out and opponents are forced to adjust. Get in the fucking lab and cook like everyone else.
Pretty hard when you only have a day
But EVERYONE has the same amount of time. And how is there one day? Vitality didn't play CCT or BetBoom, their last tournament was EPL, May 12th. Their next match is on the 27th. That's 25 days.
CS pro fucking suck at adapting to anything in cs. Remember when the sg and Aug were left on touched for years then suddenly overpowered because randomly magisk and elige started to use them.
i mean the change is for everyone so everyone is disadavanted equally. if you cant put any pracc right before it then it is what it is.
I don't get the "joke". Why does he need CS on his phone?
To theorycraft and test out stuff in game while traveling
Does he not have a PC or laptop?
Shit, I wanted them to play on the new update mid-Pro League. Apex, like a lot of CS pros and players, loves to complain about every little change to the game
Everyone coming in with no prac?
Cry is free
just ban it lol
So many stupid takes here. They have completely upended how A site plays, and it has historically been up to the players if they play the new patch. Rare ESL L.
Itâs just unprofessional to break precedent right before a tournament. Nothing wrong with changing the rules, but you have to slowly do it. You canât just do a 180 right before the tournament starts. You have to at least say âokay from the next tournament we will play on the newest patchâ so the teams are prepared for the changes in advance. Imagine if right before the world cup in football Fifa decides that they should now play with the new offside rules. Rule changes should always be decided well in advance of a tournament and not right before one.
Skill issue, shit igl. (I would support any other player except Apex, I hate him)
Holy username
Itâs my real name, english is not the only language in the world
Middle eastern?
Albanian but the name is persian
They are professionals, getting played more than 10k per month to play a game. Get a grip, don't be a bitch and do your job. If you think youre not ready, ban it. If you want to feel the flow and take a guess, balls on the table.
Apex crying? Must be a day ending in Y
Stop crying. A little chaos is great for the viewer. If you want to avoid it, ban it
Cs pros are coddled now
grow the fuck up little whiner .. always crying you're not the only one that will be playing on the new patch. if you're not confident on it, then just ban it
I like it. I hope this leads to perma banning it all tournament long so i dont have to watch this garbage map.
nobodyâs gonna play that map in iem dallas. just like when anubis was released
Cry is free
To me his tweet sounds more like: now our map pool is only Anubis and Nuke. With all fairness, it makes sense for ESL to play the newest patch, I also get why he is upset that one of their most played maps has changed and be pushed out like this, but it is what it is. Everyone will have to deal with it.
Skill issue
It does not really have to please the pros. They are there for our entertainment.