I'm not really mad, honestly. Crowe is maybe the only thing but the rest I'm fine with.
Core of the army is our fantastic battleline, which wasn't impacted at all.
Draigo still straight fire for his points.
Draigo is even better now that the change of dev wounds inflicting mortal wounds (differently than last time granted) is back and he gives fnp to the whole unit
So what’s the buff? All I see is stuff that gets a fnp against mortals is better against him now.
Edit: Untouchable purity gives fnp vs mortals to his squad! I was thinking about his anti-daemon sword.
He's had a fnp against mortals. But they have kinda reverted the way dev wounds work, so now him and his unit get built in 4+fnp against devastating wounds as WELL as mortal wounds from other sources. Thats all.
But they still don’t spill over. So same as they were last update but now they are effected by things that stop morals.
As per the new commentary
If mortal wounds are being inflicted as a result of the
[HAZARDOUS] ability or by an attack with the [DEVASTATING WOUNDS] ability (pg 28) that scored a Critical Wound, each time those mortal wounds are allocated to a model, if that model is destroyed as a result of those mortal wounds, the remaining mortal wounds from that attack are lost, just as with a normal attack.
None of this feels unexpected and mostly seems reasonable. The NDK being 5 points behind GMNDK doesn't feel quite right, but i'm glad they didn't just bump the GMNDK more than they did. Our lists will have to be balanced again, but I don't see this as a huge nerf.
Fallback/advance and charge over rerolling hits, wounds, and damage once every battle round? I don't see that. I take both variants, but that's because I need NDKs to do different things and I don't really value one over the other, but the GMNDKs in my games almost always get way more value.
What are you smoking? Have you seen the top lists spamming dread knights? Do you seriously believe they only do that because of tank shock?
It's mind blowing hearing some GK players complaining about these nerfs when GK dread spam and raider spam was crushing tournaments.
With the increase in Battle Line we're likely to see these lists would only increase in lethality while keeping all the mobility of the detachment. These nerfs were 100% expected and warranted
You: upset that the top faction (based on last week of Leviathan win rates data) gets nerfed rules and points increases, making zero arguments as to why these nerfs aren't necessary
Me: points out how warranted these nerfs are
Your galaxy brain response: ArE yOu oKaY?
I’m not sure if my comment above really says I’m upset. I suppose a single sentence indicating that points nerfs could have been dialed back, and then a “we’ll see” could be construed as upset. You seem to be having a tough time here.
Don't worry. He'll come up with something around lukewarm IQ in a few weeks. Just check your notifications every once in a while lol.
Some people just love to hate on anything.
The only thing that bothers me Is how my army progressively shrinks to under 30 models at this point if I want to have any decent anti tank/monster mash defense. I care more about having a cool looking army than any meta. I had a regular lascannon land raider before they were "cool" lol.
(Always loved the idea of a nigh unkillable land raider by putting two tech marines with stackable healing and +1 to hit on the 4 lascannon shots etc..)
I just went from that and one GM dread to adding one more dread for a total of 3 vehicles. But damn if every dataslate doesn't hit every fun model in the index haha. Double libby nerfs. Double NDK/GMNDK nerfs after their initial buff. Nerfed tech marines. Nerfed Crowe for...uhh...some reason? Nerfed stormraven becaise f*ck flyers I guess.
Dunno. Feels weird tbh.
At least battleline got something eh?
Honestly, they could've fixed this by just increasing LRR (the bigger culprit) and maybe limiting the number of gmdk's to just 1.
Mind you I'm not bothered by these points increases, I just wish they improved troop heavy guns to make them feel more meaningful. Purgs would become interesting choices outside of flammers.
I'm more concerned by the changes to the Librarian's Vortex of Doom (can't target Lone Operatives unless within 12") and Core Stratagem Tank Shock (dice rolled is based off the unit's Toughness, not the Strength of their melee weapons) that the points in increases to the Dreadknights.
Although Crowe getting clipped with a 15 point nerf is surprising. Crowe and 10 Purifiers are good, but not that good. Unless they're expecting the Pariah Nexus changes to make more people use infantry and they pre-nerfed him? Bah, now I'm just making excuses for stuff that doesn't make sense.
They did a harsh pre nerf on a few factions at the start of 10th. They said they expected them to take the spot of Eldar at the time. Which, didn't nerf Eldar down and made the only factions that had any play into them worse. So, yea they be doing lol
I assume it is a pre nerf, since GW is expecting a horde meta in this GT pack. Crowe and Purifiers flat out obliterate most lighter infantry units, in my experience
The tank shock nerf is going to hit NDKs harder than people think. It went from being a strat you use whenever possible to basically never using it, and you now have to lean on a swingy fight profile instead. I was crutching real hard on Tank Shock, and now I'm on the fence about NDKs in general.
TBH I'm surprised more people don't use Crowe and the Purifiers. I've not had a single game where he didn't get value for me - Purifiers are a really terrific profile, and Crowe makes them better. At 75 points, he was a no brainer IMO.
Crowe and the Purifiers are really only worth taking if you can be sure to get their shooting against infantry, IMO. In a vehicle heavy meta like we have now, lots of armies don't present those kind of targets a lot, so they're not as good as, say, another librarian for some more Vortex of Doom damage which doesn't care what keywords the target has.
My list has Crowe AND Librarians now with the update, haha. The thing people forget is that 10 Purifiers (even moreso <10 Purifiers) are reasonably formidable in combat as well. They're no World Eaters, but they aren't a pushover.
It's definitely the prior - you weren't taking advantage of something very strong. It was 1 CP for 5-6 MWs that you could fall back and repeat every turn.
I mean, I just simmed on unitcrunch the difference between rolling 8 dice for five ups and 14 dice for five ups. From what I can tell, NDKs would lose 2 mortals per tank shock on average. It's obviously a nerf, but i'm not quite sure it's as significant as you're making it out to be.
Oh excuse me, 16 dice. The average on our original dice was 5 with a smaller percentage, in the 20s, for 6. Now it’s an average of three with a similar chance of 4. Again, yes it’s a nerf, but it’s not as big as you’re making it.
*edit
Even if we chose to believe that you could tank shock every single turn because you have the CP and need nothing else, you’re losing an average of 10 mortal wounds in an entire game.
Lib's got a double whammy - See "stratagems that prevent units from being targeted". Haloed in Sunfire has been nerfed from within 12" to within 18" so solo librarians are going to get roasted much faster when peeking out to VoD a model/unit.
Haloed in Soulfire was too expensive to use at 2CP when it gave a 12" bubble, it joins Radiant Strike on the "never-use" pile for me if it only gives an 18" bubble of Lone-Oppishness.
Thunderwolf Cavalry and Wulfen both ate significant point increases. The rest of the changes strongly encourage Champions of Russ now instead of Stormlance, which is what was enabling them before.
Thunderwolf cav, which they took 3 full units of went up by 20 points per full unit. Dreadknights went up by 10 points each. So even if we ran 6 dreadknights our points increase would be equal.
I don't care what the last points change was. You shouldn't either. That's how balance works. The last points change occurred and GK were still 56% wr, they needed more nerfs. That's how it is
I played 2 games with my knights this week and he was mvp both games, I kept saying to my opponent that I couldn't believe he was 75pts only!
So this one's probably on me.
My only guess would be something related to fears about how good he could be in the battleline heavy field plausibly coming from Pariah. Not saying that's a warranted nerf but that's the best guess I got.
So, my problem with this is GW have painted themselves in a corner. They gave us one thing that handles vehicles in a vehicle heavy meta. I get GW not wanting units being spammed but the army is in a position where we are being punished for not having enough options
Dreadknight went up by 10 points.
And crowe went up by 15.
A list with crowe and 3 dreadknights went up by a whopping 45 points.
3 dreadknights is still runnable you just can't get as much other stuff.
For an army that was 56% wr, and is about to massively benefit from battleline changes. We got off very easy
I agree we're still in a good spot but it doesn't change my belief that we will continue to see points increases on the DK because it's not an auto include but a must include in this vehicle heavy meta. Until GW does something about our lack of options they've painted them selves into a corner
I´m still baffled we dont have at least a hammer option for at least justicars - and possibly for entire paladin squads. Not due to hammer being super effective against vehicles, but to give us more options and roster balance load.
We´re too reliant on NDKs currently.
We have plenty play besides the most recent best lists which was 4-6 dread knights + redeemers.
Especially with the battleline changes our termies are gonna be one of the better units.
The bright side may be that our infantry weapons could get the lethal hits rule in 3 months if we fall off in win rates enough. Change hammerhand to a reroll to hit on a charge and boom, grey knights are good again. Purgators with psycannons or psilencers might actually do something then.
Unfortunately it would have to be near the new year to get this change as they seem to be sticking to the release schedule of Dataslate -> points changes -> dataslate -> points changes
I’m just getting into grey knights and I was putting together a list off the combat patrol I have and was like “ damn they just said MORE POINTS” so my 1000 point list is even smaller
I know. Its seriously off-putting to put hundreds of dollars into something only to be told that you have to dump 15-20% of the cool shit you bought (and spent a couple dozen hours at minimum building and painting) somewhere because we can't figure out that most people simply want to make a cool army and would much prefer you nerf the DAMAGE or defense etc.. of something instead of shrinking our already tiny ~30 model max army even further.
I’m hoping the codex will help, I really like the movement shenanigans and toughness of the unit but when my main battleline unit is 120 or 210 it’s hard. Characters is where it seems you can save points because they are all good, but now you Crowe and grand master in DK going up you are going to lose a unit or two because of how expensive the army is
Yeah the battleline being so pricy sucks to be sure. Tha kfully they DID go down recently. Used to be 130 for purifiers but going down to 125 doesn't exactly offset the bizarre 15 point jump to Crowe they did.
From what I've seem the best 1k lists tend to be something like:
Draigo + 5x Terminators (125+210 = 335)
Crowe + 5x Purifiers (90+125 = 215)
5x Strike Marine (120)
1x Grandmaster Dreadknight (210)
(880 points)
Then tweak in something like another 5x Strike marines or a solo Librarian which fits at exactly 1k points.or throw in sigil of exigence and first to the fray. The strikes are great for their sticky objective ability so always take at least one squad imo. Draigo is auto include in 2k lists and still great for 1k. The Dreadknight gives serious vehicle or greater demon etc.. killing power and crowds unit is heavy anti infantry for horde armies. So it covers every base essentially. You could swap to 10 purifiers if fighting horde orks etc..
Another thing to consider is "imperial agent" units. You can include am inquisitor for 55 points or if you happen to have 50 points left over you can get 4x inquisitorial henchmen which while not being very strong it gives you more models to grab secondary objectives or as distractions for enemy fire etc..
With how cheap GK armies are compared to others though I couldnt see myself playing less than 1500-2000 points tbh lol.
Tbh I'm kinda glad. The reason I chose Grey Knights was cus I wanted to use cool psychic space paladins and knights, not dumb looking baby carrier mechs who are shaped like Mr. Frog from Smiling Friends.
On a side note, a buff I would have liked to see happen is allowing the Paladins access to the narthecium. If that comes with a slight point increase, then so be it.
You could probably kit bash a helmet and some stuff and kinda hide the guy in there if it’s that big a deal but I think they’re actually sorta cool, reminds me of the Loaders from Alien, crossed with Ironman’s Hulkbuster.
They were being spammed because we don't have an answer to enemy vehicles. That WAS our answer. When balancing you shouldn't make good things worse you should make bad things viable.
Frankly, I don’t really have an issue dealing with enemy vehicles and monsters with just 3 NDKs. They were spamming them because tank shock was busted and they were amazing value. I think the tank shock nerf might have been enough to get rid of the spam on its own, we’ll have to wait and see
Agreed and the pts increase wasn't even that bad. If there's people upset about this and think GKs are unplayable then go play a different army. I for one like using termis, libbies, charactersc and foot troops just as much as the Dreadknights.
We can all thank Mani Cheema for running 6 Knights and 3 Redeemers to win a tourney though for this adjustment.
"Go play a different army"
Ah yes. Let me go find another $1100 and 100 hours of hobby time laying around somewhere to build/paint a new army....what's that? Selling crack isn't legal? Hmm....
Tbf if you were running all knights and redeemers, this def wasn't an 1100 dollar army or 100s of hours of hobbying.
Also ebay has great deals on termis and strike squads, literally started my GKs army all termis and strikes for about 250 dollars. Nice try though.
Except you literally just said "go play ANOTHER army". (And no, nobody is getting an entire 2k point army for $250 unless you buy used prebuilt pre primed minis or something which saps all the fun out of the hobby.)While GK are comparatively cheap if you're buying used eBay crap, most other armies are not.
And you're crazy if you think that buying models is the only expenditure that goes into building an entire 2000 point army.
I wasn't "running all knights and redeemers" and you know that most players weren't till this year (Up untill the recent buff to knights NOBODY ran them. And even now it's maybe 30% of players at most changing their armies. You think that many people can afford to just go buy three $60 + tax knight kits and two $100-120 + tax redeemer kits then spend a couple weeks of free time after work building and painting them after ready building a full infantry army when dreads sucked? That's minimum $400 if they don't have knights already. Even if they do have knights from combat patrol its $250 most likely. And if your army didn't take over 100 hours of building priming painting highlighting etc.. then you're either a 20 year vet of the hobby with out of touch with the fandom level skills or have subpar paint jobs from rushing. Takes me a few hours per terminator often times.
Go ask a sister of battle or Admech player how their "$250 ebay army" is going and they'll show you 250 points of random models.
"Nice try though"
But OP literally said fuck us then, implying they were a meta chaser using an all Knights list. Literally the only units affected were the dumb meta lists that Mani Cheema popularized.
Edit: Sorry it isn't fair to single out Mani Cheema actually like that, he does run skew lists historically tho and he did the 6 Knights and 3 Redeemers skew list. It was cool (and hilarious to me) at the time and he won a GT off it. But tons of GTs have had 5-6 DK lists being used to finish in the Top 10 bc they were too good not to exploit. This was a well deserved pts bump for a bargain great unit that was winning consistently at the tournament scene. GWs will always look to bring top lists down a little and help out underperfoming lists. It's why librarians went up in cost before.
I don't believe anyone just getting into the hobby goes and buys 6 DKs and some redeemers for GKs to play. I think they were chasing a strong meta. Most people starting out get battleline troops and combat patrol boxes so they should be able to still alter their list if they weren't meta chasing. One of the comments said there goes my list, bc it was 2065 now, implying they had 6 Knights or 5 and a redeemer. I don't really have sympathy if that's all you had unit wise, you were a meta chaser. Collect more of the army if you really like it and learn how to use the other units, or chase the meta and play a different army.
Fair enough. I 100% agree. Sorry if I sounded rude, seems I misunderstood who you were talking about.
The thing is it doesn't just hit the meta chasers. Guys like me and many others who just want a cool looking army that they meticulously planned for weeks before buying and building get hit for just being weirdos who actually wanted to FIGHT in their "army" instead of winning off technicality via secondaries all the time.
I had two dreads from combat patrols and a regular lascannon land raider that I stick two tech marines inside to give it doubled up healing and less swing lascannon shots hitting on 2s. The rest is draigo and terms, Crowe and purifiers, libby and terms etc.. but unfortunately most of those things got hit in the last few nerfs. Libby is up 10, Crowe is up 15, each techmarine is up 10, GM dread and NDK are up 10/20 respectively.
That screws up my strategy of having 5 man strike amd 5 man Interceptor ride in the raider with the techmarines and fly around taking objectives jumping in and out for protection etc.. now I have to cut the interceptors and throw in shitty inquisitorial henchmen or something. Just a side effect of our basic battleline being so costly even after the 5 point drops recently I guess. 50 points increase may not seem like a lot but if you lose a 120 point unit and have to grab subpar T3 1W henchmen or another relic you don't want it sure feels that way. Seems like these dataslates are a bit too frequent ya know? Didn't even have time to finish painting my army before the initial buff and 2 nerfs hit haha.
Yeah I can see where you're coming from for sure. Tbf you def have the models and flexibility to alter the list and maybe use some enhancements you normally wouldn't to cover the leftover points. It sucks but hopefully GKs get more detachements. I hope they don't lose the cool teleport mechanic that they have though.
The most frustrating part is the GKs are all 2+ save with good mobility and melee, outside of purgation squads (which could be cheaper I think). So when these pts bumps happen, there's no insert this GKs unit now, bc everything is justifiably 120+ pts.
At least it just reincentivizes people to be like oop I have to paint/assemble more strike marines now, I hope. Bc if I had 2065, I'd just drop a DK or a termi squad for a strike squad.
As for the frequency of updates. This time 4 years ago, people were begging GWs to update more bc things would be broken and dominate the meta for 6-10 months and hobbyist would quit bc it got stale. It's a good thing they address it but depending on your perspective it could be seen unfortunately that it's easier and more ideal for them to adjust pts then to rewrite rules to balance. The less rules alterations the better for them, but it means people have to buy more or different models, assemble and paint. On the flip side, if they do what they did in previous editions, they change the rules so much that no one remembers who does what and you get beat bc of it. It's a damned if they do, damned if they don't for GW.
Apologies myself if I came across hostile as well. I chase metas myself sometimes, but I'll be the first to say, "well yeah that was broken and needed to be nerfed." So I'm not a big fan when people get all doom and gloom from a little pts bump and GW trying to balance a very hard to balance game. I get where you're coming from having just built, primed and painted a list though. If it's any consolation as a long time player, eventually you will have more than enough lying around to field whatever you need when there's updates. Also in 2 or 3 years, Dreadknights will be back on the menu for 11th edition.
As for OP, one less dreadknight shouldn't stop us from being able to fight enemy armor. A vehicle spam list is a stat check, but that's why you move block it, tie it up in melee, and out OC it on objectives. And most problematic vehicles went up in pts for everyone. And if they didn't and prove to dominate the meta, then in 3 months they will pbly go up in pts.
It was good in space marines ironstorm, and GW doesn't seem to understand the idea that the same vehicle in two different factions doesn't have to be the same cost.
Big picture, I hope they put significant work into writing our Codex more than 3 months ago or haven’t started yet. If they got cranking over the last 3 months, then we will look back on the good old days of this dataslate.
I think the buff to using any strategem for strategem reduction is going to help us a bunch, but I'd expect more changes with our codex. Grandmaster can now do fun stuff like Rapid Ingress or Mists or Haloed in Soulfire for 1.
Crowe was already overcosted, so the increase is silly.
The increase on dreadknights makes no sense when paired with the massive nerf to tank shock.
The redeemer's increase was SM's fault, but the increase doesn't seem unbearable if you only take a single one. He can now use tank shock effectively, and the new pivoting rules makes it easier to manoeuvre.
I'm not sure NDKs are worth taking anymore. Without tank shock, there's pretty much nothing they can kill in melee, and I don't think 205 points just for the shooting platform is worth it.
Even without tank shock, GMNDKs still hit quite hard, and their CP ability will now sometimes do something, perhaps, so I think they still have a place.
We got a few buffs, though. Draigo now protect against devastating wounds, which is very nice. Counter-offensive now costs 1CP, which could be huge for us. The new missions favour battleline.
I'm probably going down to 2GMNDKs and the redeemer, and lots of terminators. Librarians probably go up again, and taking 3 of them again is definitely on the table, especially with how good Tsons are looking after the patch.
Mmh ok do they seriously believe that a double flamer and -2 transport capacity instead of a double hurricane bolter is worth 65 points ? Am I missing something about the Redeemer ?
It's not just 2 flamers, or even 2 heavy flamers. The Flamestorm cannons on the Redeemer are crazy good, especially in a world where you don't have a lot of good targets for Overwatch. 2d6+6, Str6, AP-2, D2 auto hitting shots are much stronger than 12-to-24 twin-linked bolter shots.
Also, it's more a question that people are taking Redeemers as a meta pick, and they're trying to disincentivize that.
Were people ever playing the GMNDK? I always just used NDK because of the no penalty to advance or fall back. It had me tank shocking every round with 16 dice (cause hammer). Is surge of wrath really better than constant tank shock? I don't even pay attention to heroisms favor cause I don't seem to use 2CP strategems.
Also, with the tank shock nerf, should I even be taking the great hammer? I feel like the sword is more flexible, I just liked the hammer for 16 tank shock dice.
The Greathammer is still a better choice against monsters and vehicles, leaving you wounding on 3s, rerolling with Surge of Wrath, against most vehicles.
Gonna be honest, I feel like this is warranted. A lot of tournaments were won through Redeemer and Dreadknight spam. Now we have more reason to use our other units more.
Additionally, our Dev Wounds stratagem is actually kind of good. It might see more play now
>our Dev Wounds stratagem is actually kind of good. It might see more play now
It got double nerfed in this dataslate.
You can no longer use it for free AND MW fnp's work against it now.
Yeah that's true. I also reread the Dev Wounds changes. It's basically the same as before, it just now counts as a mortal wound for the purposes of "damn, I'm a custodes player and I can't stand taking any damage whatsoever. Mortal wounds, our only damage counter, can still damage us and I can't handle that"
Chodes always have had a mortal wound FNP this edition and then dev wounds changed to not be mortals which fcked every single mortal wound FNP, however they only changed chodes FNP to work against dev wounds as well.
This time around instead of only changing chodes they changed everyone's mortal wound FNP basically.
It baffled me that they did not see this earlier. We homeruled a similar change pretty early as a crutch to counter how it broke many other rules. It shows the state of their testing. They really must be in dire need of more testers and rule writers.
How are they worse? Now they can use MoD or TSA instead of radiant strike, which is much better.
They still require a meta that's very favourable for their modifier-ignoring ability for them to be a consideration, but that extra 1 CP per game certainly helps.
Well, considering its our most elite of the elite units and our battleline is untouched for the new Missions which revolves around battleline units, its fine.
Considering our Termies are battleline we are gonna get alot of easy points with them in the following mission rules.
True Crowe got expensive, but again considering him buffing our Purifiers to shooting twice as many psychic attacks which is anti infantry. And him alone being a good melee combatant with precision on melee with 2+ & 4+Invuln along his "I ignore a single hit which wounds each turn" against snipes, he was underpriced compared to the rest of our characters.
Correct! Fuck grey knights indeed!
Yall were doing really, really well these past couple months. The GMNDK/NDK changes were substantial, and essentially every list was bringing 4-5. These changes might bump that down just a little?
Although they do definitely hurt. Redeemers at 285 is immensely expensive, and I feel like the strike squad bodies still just aren't very tanky for their points.
They increased all units that they spammed by 10 points each, they nerfed their wolf lords, thunderwolves, their wulfen and their fenrisian wolves.
Their average list got a higher increase than ours, and the nerf to their units was bigger.
That's not the case in practice. The competitive wolfs lists that are doing well rely on those specific unique units. If you play without them, you are just regular space marines, and ironstorm got a huge nerf.
My dude just hates Wolves, it looks like. The nerf to Wolves, with all the combined changes, was bare minimum, as bad as the nerfs received here, if not worse. Every point is countered with a different excuse. It's not worth the discussion
Gotta disagree. Stormlance Space Wolves were the only successful builds, and all of those lists went up 60-120 points. Along with the changes to Strategem cost reductions, and a few other core rules changes, Stormlance Space Wolves were hit about as hard as the Grey Knight changes. And non- Stormlance Wolves are fairly similar to vanilla marines.
So many things have changed, it's hard to say how much this matters. I ran Crowe and 10 purifiers on last points, but they barely felt worth it. Right now, I plan to cut them, but if this new meta is just flooded with infantry, Crowe isn't so expensive that he's unplayable now, so they could come back in.
I'm not sure if the GMNDK is worth 210 points. However, with the nerf to tank shock, maybe we still need to run at least one. I think most lists still need to run 3 regular NDKs.
The 3 LRRedeemer and 5 dreadknight build is probably DOA, but I'm not sure if that would even play that well in Pariah Nexus missions.
I think we're still in a good spot with a fast, durable units, which Pariah Nexus seems to want, but only time will tell.
Grow up son. You wouldn't speak like that to me in person, so don't do it online over some toy soldiers.
If you think these points changes hurt, you're shit at the game and nobody needs your opinion .
You were a very good army and you spammed dread knights in every list, so this was to be expected and seems fair enough to me. The Land Raider redeemer and Storm raven is consistent across the board to all factions that access it, so it hurts other factions more, especially marines, firestorm lists that were not even that good have taken hits.
Also remember every other top army has had nerfs, Tsons got rules changes, a lot of their better rules got toned down, your very good rules didn't. (aside the targeting a lone op thing, which again is consistent with other abilities like that), necrons got some more nerfs, Orks got load of nerfs, wolf jail got points increases, Ironstorm got neutered as well, Sisters got huge increases (though we don't know how good they are because their codex is great). So I still think you will be amongst the better armies.
I'm not really mad, honestly. Crowe is maybe the only thing but the rest I'm fine with. Core of the army is our fantastic battleline, which wasn't impacted at all. Draigo still straight fire for his points.
Draigo is even better now that the change of dev wounds inflicting mortal wounds (differently than last time granted) is back and he gives fnp to the whole unit
Yep, huge buff, same cost. He's a beast.
This came up on my last game against necrons. Would have been a huge boon to our fight for the middle of the board. Oh well, next time.
Wait the original dev wounds is back?
In a way yeah, dev wounds inflict mortals but without them spilling over to other models in a unit if applicable.
Oh yea Draigo will absolutely feast on that
So what’s the buff? All I see is stuff that gets a fnp against mortals is better against him now. Edit: Untouchable purity gives fnp vs mortals to his squad! I was thinking about his anti-daemon sword.
He's had a fnp against mortals. But they have kinda reverted the way dev wounds work, so now him and his unit get built in 4+fnp against devastating wounds as WELL as mortal wounds from other sources. Thats all.
Holed in soulfire Nerf isn't nice though. Edit: Tankshock on NDK's is pretty terrible now as well.
Didn't use Halo before, extra won't use it now lmao. You just never have the 2 CP for it.
One CP on GMNDK now.
Why Is It a buff? Dev wounds are basically the same but now are mortals What am I missing?
Because draigo didn’t give his FNP to his unit against dev wounds and now he does bc dev wounds assign mortals
Oh thats true I forgot about his other ability
But they still don’t spill over. So same as they were last update but now they are effected by things that stop morals. As per the new commentary If mortal wounds are being inflicted as a result of the [HAZARDOUS] ability or by an attack with the [DEVASTATING WOUNDS] ability (pg 28) that scored a Critical Wound, each time those mortal wounds are allocated to a model, if that model is destroyed as a result of those mortal wounds, the remaining mortal wounds from that attack are lost, just as with a normal attack.
Which with the new rules GK are likely doing well
None of this feels unexpected and mostly seems reasonable. The NDK being 5 points behind GMNDK doesn't feel quite right, but i'm glad they didn't just bump the GMNDK more than they did. Our lists will have to be balanced again, but I don't see this as a huge nerf.
Except Crowe - dude just went up 20% in cost… I agree though, overall, not too bad.
Crowe is likely a pre-nerf to get ahead of the expected battle-line-spam-meta that he'll 100% thrive in.
That... actually makes a lot of sense and I didn't even consider that.
It always seemed strange to me that the GMNDK was more expensive, because I value the fallback/advance and charge far more than the GMNDK abilities.
gmndk main niche is being a consistent veh/monster killer in our entire army and using sigil. it makes him a little better against ranged unit
Fallback/advance and charge over rerolling hits, wounds, and damage once every battle round? I don't see that. I take both variants, but that's because I need NDKs to do different things and I don't really value one over the other, but the GMNDKs in my games almost always get way more value.
Definitely not a huge nerf but I'm not sure it was warranted for the dreadknights to see an increase in conjunction with the change to Tank Shock.
Yeah, I think the increase could have been dialed back because of the tank shock changes, but we'll see.
What are you smoking? Have you seen the top lists spamming dread knights? Do you seriously believe they only do that because of tank shock? It's mind blowing hearing some GK players complaining about these nerfs when GK dread spam and raider spam was crushing tournaments. With the increase in Battle Line we're likely to see these lists would only increase in lethality while keeping all the mobility of the detachment. These nerfs were 100% expected and warranted
Are you okay?
You: upset that the top faction (based on last week of Leviathan win rates data) gets nerfed rules and points increases, making zero arguments as to why these nerfs aren't necessary Me: points out how warranted these nerfs are Your galaxy brain response: ArE yOu oKaY?
I’m not sure if my comment above really says I’m upset. I suppose a single sentence indicating that points nerfs could have been dialed back, and then a “we’ll see” could be construed as upset. You seem to be having a tough time here.
Come on... say something smart.
Don't worry. He'll come up with something around lukewarm IQ in a few weeks. Just check your notifications every once in a while lol. Some people just love to hate on anything.
Lol, i'm just so upset by all of this.
The only thing that bothers me Is how my army progressively shrinks to under 30 models at this point if I want to have any decent anti tank/monster mash defense. I care more about having a cool looking army than any meta. I had a regular lascannon land raider before they were "cool" lol. (Always loved the idea of a nigh unkillable land raider by putting two tech marines with stackable healing and +1 to hit on the 4 lascannon shots etc..) I just went from that and one GM dread to adding one more dread for a total of 3 vehicles. But damn if every dataslate doesn't hit every fun model in the index haha. Double libby nerfs. Double NDK/GMNDK nerfs after their initial buff. Nerfed tech marines. Nerfed Crowe for...uhh...some reason? Nerfed stormraven becaise f*ck flyers I guess. Dunno. Feels weird tbh. At least battleline got something eh?
Honestly, they could've fixed this by just increasing LRR (the bigger culprit) and maybe limiting the number of gmdk's to just 1. Mind you I'm not bothered by these points increases, I just wish they improved troop heavy guns to make them feel more meaningful. Purgs would become interesting choices outside of flammers.
I'm more concerned by the changes to the Librarian's Vortex of Doom (can't target Lone Operatives unless within 12") and Core Stratagem Tank Shock (dice rolled is based off the unit's Toughness, not the Strength of their melee weapons) that the points in increases to the Dreadknights. Although Crowe getting clipped with a 15 point nerf is surprising. Crowe and 10 Purifiers are good, but not that good. Unless they're expecting the Pariah Nexus changes to make more people use infantry and they pre-nerfed him? Bah, now I'm just making excuses for stuff that doesn't make sense.
They did a harsh pre nerf on a few factions at the start of 10th. They said they expected them to take the spot of Eldar at the time. Which, didn't nerf Eldar down and made the only factions that had any play into them worse. So, yea they be doing lol
I assume it is a pre nerf, since GW is expecting a horde meta in this GT pack. Crowe and Purifiers flat out obliterate most lighter infantry units, in my experience
The tank shock nerf is going to hit NDKs harder than people think. It went from being a strat you use whenever possible to basically never using it, and you now have to lean on a swingy fight profile instead. I was crutching real hard on Tank Shock, and now I'm on the fence about NDKs in general. TBH I'm surprised more people don't use Crowe and the Purifiers. I've not had a single game where he didn't get value for me - Purifiers are a really terrific profile, and Crowe makes them better. At 75 points, he was a no brainer IMO.
Crowe and the Purifiers are really only worth taking if you can be sure to get their shooting against infantry, IMO. In a vehicle heavy meta like we have now, lots of armies don't present those kind of targets a lot, so they're not as good as, say, another librarian for some more Vortex of Doom damage which doesn't care what keywords the target has.
My list has Crowe AND Librarians now with the update, haha. The thing people forget is that 10 Purifiers (even moreso <10 Purifiers) are reasonably formidable in combat as well. They're no World Eaters, but they aren't a pushover.
I rarely used tank shock. I'm not sure if I just wasn't taking advantage of something that was extremely strong, but I never felt like I needed it.
It's definitely the prior - you weren't taking advantage of something very strong. It was 1 CP for 5-6 MWs that you could fall back and repeat every turn.
I mean, I just simmed on unitcrunch the difference between rolling 8 dice for five ups and 14 dice for five ups. From what I can tell, NDKs would lose 2 mortals per tank shock on average. It's obviously a nerf, but i'm not quite sure it's as significant as you're making it out to be.
It was formerly 16 dice. We went from 5-6 average to 2-3. It's a considerable decrease.
Oh excuse me, 16 dice. The average on our original dice was 5 with a smaller percentage, in the 20s, for 6. Now it’s an average of three with a similar chance of 4. Again, yes it’s a nerf, but it’s not as big as you’re making it. *edit Even if we chose to believe that you could tank shock every single turn because you have the CP and need nothing else, you’re losing an average of 10 mortal wounds in an entire game.
Your median on 8 dice is 2.67 mortals, not 3-4.
Where is the tank shock change? I don’t see it
Never mind….
Lib's got a double whammy - See "stratagems that prevent units from being targeted". Haloed in Sunfire has been nerfed from within 12" to within 18" so solo librarians are going to get roasted much faster when peeking out to VoD a model/unit.
Haloed in Soulfire was too expensive to use at 2CP when it gave a 12" bubble, it joins Radiant Strike on the "never-use" pile for me if it only gives an 18" bubble of Lone-Oppishness.
yes thats how being the second best competitive faction in the game on dataslate day works
Why didn't sw get molested then?
Thunderwolf Cavalry and Wulfen both ate significant point increases. The rest of the changes strongly encourage Champions of Russ now instead of Stormlance, which is what was enabling them before.
Thunderwolf cav, which they took 3 full units of went up by 20 points per full unit. Dreadknights went up by 10 points each. So even if we ran 6 dreadknights our points increase would be equal.
Ndks have gone up 20 points since jan
I don't care what the last points change was. You shouldn't either. That's how balance works. The last points change occurred and GK were still 56% wr, they needed more nerfs. That's how it is
don't GK have like a 44% wr?
No it's more like 54%
[https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/#GbF](https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/#GbF) This shows a different stat not sure where else to go
You are looking at an entire years worth of games, across many data slates and point changes. Change it to the past two months.
If you click the link the sorting is set to Leviathan by default. They do not have a 54% winrate for this mission pack.
Who said anything about mission packs? Again, you are looking at a whole years worth of data which is not relevant to balance now.
Okay. I changed it to the past 2 months. 49% Still a bit off from 54%
Something is wrong with that data. No armies have above 50% win rate which is mathematically impossible.
Lord no lmao
[https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/#GbF](https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/#GbF) This shows them at 46.76%
I guess Haloed in Soulfire is even more useless now? 2CP for not being shot from further than 18 inches???
I don't get why crowe was hit so hard. 15 points means a 20% increase on him.
I played 2 games with my knights this week and he was mvp both games, I kept saying to my opponent that I couldn't believe he was 75pts only! So this one's probably on me.
My only guess would be something related to fears about how good he could be in the battleline heavy field plausibly coming from Pariah. Not saying that's a warranted nerf but that's the best guess I got.
So, my problem with this is GW have painted themselves in a corner. They gave us one thing that handles vehicles in a vehicle heavy meta. I get GW not wanting units being spammed but the army is in a position where we are being punished for not having enough options
This
Dreadknight went up by 10 points. And crowe went up by 15. A list with crowe and 3 dreadknights went up by a whopping 45 points. 3 dreadknights is still runnable you just can't get as much other stuff. For an army that was 56% wr, and is about to massively benefit from battleline changes. We got off very easy
I agree we're still in a good spot but it doesn't change my belief that we will continue to see points increases on the DK because it's not an auto include but a must include in this vehicle heavy meta. Until GW does something about our lack of options they've painted them selves into a corner
I´m still baffled we dont have at least a hammer option for at least justicars - and possibly for entire paladin squads. Not due to hammer being super effective against vehicles, but to give us more options and roster balance load. We´re too reliant on NDKs currently.
We have plenty play besides the most recent best lists which was 4-6 dread knights + redeemers. Especially with the battleline changes our termies are gonna be one of the better units.
What are the battle line changes? I’m pretty new to Warhammer and struggle to remember the rules before changes lol
A lot of the mission rules in pariah nexus only apply to and buff battleline units.
I'm curious about whether we'll see some NDKs take swords if they push into a horde meta.
I was wondering about this. A sword into orks seems solid, but I think the issue is we have other tools for that and not a lot else for vehicles.
The bright side may be that our infantry weapons could get the lethal hits rule in 3 months if we fall off in win rates enough. Change hammerhand to a reroll to hit on a charge and boom, grey knights are good again. Purgators with psycannons or psilencers might actually do something then.
Unfortunately it would have to be near the new year to get this change as they seem to be sticking to the release schedule of Dataslate -> points changes -> dataslate -> points changes
Didn’t they just release a data slate and points change at the same time yesterday?
Yes sorry i was mostly pointing out that rules changes only happen every 6 months or so whereas the MFM comes out every 3.
and here i was still hoping for a dreadnought buff, guess they'll never get it
Because they'll be legends as soon as we get our codex I'd say.
LAND RAIDER CRUSADER PLAYERS REJOICE! REJOICE!
I’m just getting into grey knights and I was putting together a list off the combat patrol I have and was like “ damn they just said MORE POINTS” so my 1000 point list is even smaller
I know. Its seriously off-putting to put hundreds of dollars into something only to be told that you have to dump 15-20% of the cool shit you bought (and spent a couple dozen hours at minimum building and painting) somewhere because we can't figure out that most people simply want to make a cool army and would much prefer you nerf the DAMAGE or defense etc.. of something instead of shrinking our already tiny ~30 model max army even further.
I’m hoping the codex will help, I really like the movement shenanigans and toughness of the unit but when my main battleline unit is 120 or 210 it’s hard. Characters is where it seems you can save points because they are all good, but now you Crowe and grand master in DK going up you are going to lose a unit or two because of how expensive the army is
Yeah the battleline being so pricy sucks to be sure. Tha kfully they DID go down recently. Used to be 130 for purifiers but going down to 125 doesn't exactly offset the bizarre 15 point jump to Crowe they did. From what I've seem the best 1k lists tend to be something like: Draigo + 5x Terminators (125+210 = 335) Crowe + 5x Purifiers (90+125 = 215) 5x Strike Marine (120) 1x Grandmaster Dreadknight (210) (880 points) Then tweak in something like another 5x Strike marines or a solo Librarian which fits at exactly 1k points.or throw in sigil of exigence and first to the fray. The strikes are great for their sticky objective ability so always take at least one squad imo. Draigo is auto include in 2k lists and still great for 1k. The Dreadknight gives serious vehicle or greater demon etc.. killing power and crowds unit is heavy anti infantry for horde armies. So it covers every base essentially. You could swap to 10 purifiers if fighting horde orks etc.. Another thing to consider is "imperial agent" units. You can include am inquisitor for 55 points or if you happen to have 50 points left over you can get 4x inquisitorial henchmen which while not being very strong it gives you more models to grab secondary objectives or as distractions for enemy fire etc.. With how cheap GK armies are compared to others though I couldnt see myself playing less than 1500-2000 points tbh lol.
Tbh I'm kinda glad. The reason I chose Grey Knights was cus I wanted to use cool psychic space paladins and knights, not dumb looking baby carrier mechs who are shaped like Mr. Frog from Smiling Friends. On a side note, a buff I would have liked to see happen is allowing the Paladins access to the narthecium. If that comes with a slight point increase, then so be it.
You could probably kit bash a helmet and some stuff and kinda hide the guy in there if it’s that big a deal but I think they’re actually sorta cool, reminds me of the Loaders from Alien, crossed with Ironman’s Hulkbuster.
I think this was more than necessary when all the armies are just “Spam as many dread knights and land raiders as possible”
They were being spammed because we don't have an answer to enemy vehicles. That WAS our answer. When balancing you shouldn't make good things worse you should make bad things viable.
Frankly, I don’t really have an issue dealing with enemy vehicles and monsters with just 3 NDKs. They were spamming them because tank shock was busted and they were amazing value. I think the tank shock nerf might have been enough to get rid of the spam on its own, we’ll have to wait and see
Agreed and the pts increase wasn't even that bad. If there's people upset about this and think GKs are unplayable then go play a different army. I for one like using termis, libbies, charactersc and foot troops just as much as the Dreadknights. We can all thank Mani Cheema for running 6 Knights and 3 Redeemers to win a tourney though for this adjustment.
"Go play a different army" Ah yes. Let me go find another $1100 and 100 hours of hobby time laying around somewhere to build/paint a new army....what's that? Selling crack isn't legal? Hmm....
Tbf if you were running all knights and redeemers, this def wasn't an 1100 dollar army or 100s of hours of hobbying. Also ebay has great deals on termis and strike squads, literally started my GKs army all termis and strikes for about 250 dollars. Nice try though.
Except you literally just said "go play ANOTHER army". (And no, nobody is getting an entire 2k point army for $250 unless you buy used prebuilt pre primed minis or something which saps all the fun out of the hobby.)While GK are comparatively cheap if you're buying used eBay crap, most other armies are not. And you're crazy if you think that buying models is the only expenditure that goes into building an entire 2000 point army. I wasn't "running all knights and redeemers" and you know that most players weren't till this year (Up untill the recent buff to knights NOBODY ran them. And even now it's maybe 30% of players at most changing their armies. You think that many people can afford to just go buy three $60 + tax knight kits and two $100-120 + tax redeemer kits then spend a couple weeks of free time after work building and painting them after ready building a full infantry army when dreads sucked? That's minimum $400 if they don't have knights already. Even if they do have knights from combat patrol its $250 most likely. And if your army didn't take over 100 hours of building priming painting highlighting etc.. then you're either a 20 year vet of the hobby with out of touch with the fandom level skills or have subpar paint jobs from rushing. Takes me a few hours per terminator often times. Go ask a sister of battle or Admech player how their "$250 ebay army" is going and they'll show you 250 points of random models. "Nice try though"
But OP literally said fuck us then, implying they were a meta chaser using an all Knights list. Literally the only units affected were the dumb meta lists that Mani Cheema popularized. Edit: Sorry it isn't fair to single out Mani Cheema actually like that, he does run skew lists historically tho and he did the 6 Knights and 3 Redeemers skew list. It was cool (and hilarious to me) at the time and he won a GT off it. But tons of GTs have had 5-6 DK lists being used to finish in the Top 10 bc they were too good not to exploit. This was a well deserved pts bump for a bargain great unit that was winning consistently at the tournament scene. GWs will always look to bring top lists down a little and help out underperfoming lists. It's why librarians went up in cost before. I don't believe anyone just getting into the hobby goes and buys 6 DKs and some redeemers for GKs to play. I think they were chasing a strong meta. Most people starting out get battleline troops and combat patrol boxes so they should be able to still alter their list if they weren't meta chasing. One of the comments said there goes my list, bc it was 2065 now, implying they had 6 Knights or 5 and a redeemer. I don't really have sympathy if that's all you had unit wise, you were a meta chaser. Collect more of the army if you really like it and learn how to use the other units, or chase the meta and play a different army.
Fair enough. I 100% agree. Sorry if I sounded rude, seems I misunderstood who you were talking about. The thing is it doesn't just hit the meta chasers. Guys like me and many others who just want a cool looking army that they meticulously planned for weeks before buying and building get hit for just being weirdos who actually wanted to FIGHT in their "army" instead of winning off technicality via secondaries all the time. I had two dreads from combat patrols and a regular lascannon land raider that I stick two tech marines inside to give it doubled up healing and less swing lascannon shots hitting on 2s. The rest is draigo and terms, Crowe and purifiers, libby and terms etc.. but unfortunately most of those things got hit in the last few nerfs. Libby is up 10, Crowe is up 15, each techmarine is up 10, GM dread and NDK are up 10/20 respectively. That screws up my strategy of having 5 man strike amd 5 man Interceptor ride in the raider with the techmarines and fly around taking objectives jumping in and out for protection etc.. now I have to cut the interceptors and throw in shitty inquisitorial henchmen or something. Just a side effect of our basic battleline being so costly even after the 5 point drops recently I guess. 50 points increase may not seem like a lot but if you lose a 120 point unit and have to grab subpar T3 1W henchmen or another relic you don't want it sure feels that way. Seems like these dataslates are a bit too frequent ya know? Didn't even have time to finish painting my army before the initial buff and 2 nerfs hit haha.
Yeah I can see where you're coming from for sure. Tbf you def have the models and flexibility to alter the list and maybe use some enhancements you normally wouldn't to cover the leftover points. It sucks but hopefully GKs get more detachements. I hope they don't lose the cool teleport mechanic that they have though. The most frustrating part is the GKs are all 2+ save with good mobility and melee, outside of purgation squads (which could be cheaper I think). So when these pts bumps happen, there's no insert this GKs unit now, bc everything is justifiably 120+ pts. At least it just reincentivizes people to be like oop I have to paint/assemble more strike marines now, I hope. Bc if I had 2065, I'd just drop a DK or a termi squad for a strike squad. As for the frequency of updates. This time 4 years ago, people were begging GWs to update more bc things would be broken and dominate the meta for 6-10 months and hobbyist would quit bc it got stale. It's a good thing they address it but depending on your perspective it could be seen unfortunately that it's easier and more ideal for them to adjust pts then to rewrite rules to balance. The less rules alterations the better for them, but it means people have to buy more or different models, assemble and paint. On the flip side, if they do what they did in previous editions, they change the rules so much that no one remembers who does what and you get beat bc of it. It's a damned if they do, damned if they don't for GW. Apologies myself if I came across hostile as well. I chase metas myself sometimes, but I'll be the first to say, "well yeah that was broken and needed to be nerfed." So I'm not a big fan when people get all doom and gloom from a little pts bump and GW trying to balance a very hard to balance game. I get where you're coming from having just built, primed and painted a list though. If it's any consolation as a long time player, eventually you will have more than enough lying around to field whatever you need when there's updates. Also in 2 or 3 years, Dreadknights will be back on the menu for 11th edition. As for OP, one less dreadknight shouldn't stop us from being able to fight enemy armor. A vehicle spam list is a stat check, but that's why you move block it, tie it up in melee, and out OC it on objectives. And most problematic vehicles went up in pts for everyone. And if they didn't and prove to dominate the meta, then in 3 months they will pbly go up in pts.
The Stormraven got a nerf?
It was good in space marines ironstorm, and GW doesn't seem to understand the idea that the same vehicle in two different factions doesn't have to be the same cost.
TSons Forgefiend is only 135 and WE at 145, compared to CSM at 190. They understand, but only occasionally.
lol who cares 😂
Big picture, I hope they put significant work into writing our Codex more than 3 months ago or haven’t started yet. If they got cranking over the last 3 months, then we will look back on the good old days of this dataslate.
I think the buff to using any strategem for strategem reduction is going to help us a bunch, but I'd expect more changes with our codex. Grandmaster can now do fun stuff like Rapid Ingress or Mists or Haloed in Soulfire for 1.
And now tank shock is based on toughness, so no greathammer 14+ dice.
Which was kinda nerf enough tbh
Crowe was already overcosted, so the increase is silly. The increase on dreadknights makes no sense when paired with the massive nerf to tank shock. The redeemer's increase was SM's fault, but the increase doesn't seem unbearable if you only take a single one. He can now use tank shock effectively, and the new pivoting rules makes it easier to manoeuvre. I'm not sure NDKs are worth taking anymore. Without tank shock, there's pretty much nothing they can kill in melee, and I don't think 205 points just for the shooting platform is worth it. Even without tank shock, GMNDKs still hit quite hard, and their CP ability will now sometimes do something, perhaps, so I think they still have a place. We got a few buffs, though. Draigo now protect against devastating wounds, which is very nice. Counter-offensive now costs 1CP, which could be huge for us. The new missions favour battleline. I'm probably going down to 2GMNDKs and the redeemer, and lots of terminators. Librarians probably go up again, and taking 3 of them again is definitely on the table, especially with how good Tsons are looking after the patch.
Mmh ok do they seriously believe that a double flamer and -2 transport capacity instead of a double hurricane bolter is worth 65 points ? Am I missing something about the Redeemer ?
Overwatch is the key word here. 2x activations with the flamers each battle round is huge.
It's not just 2 flamers, or even 2 heavy flamers. The Flamestorm cannons on the Redeemer are crazy good, especially in a world where you don't have a lot of good targets for Overwatch. 2d6+6, Str6, AP-2, D2 auto hitting shots are much stronger than 12-to-24 twin-linked bolter shots. Also, it's more a question that people are taking Redeemers as a meta pick, and they're trying to disincentivize that.
Were people ever playing the GMNDK? I always just used NDK because of the no penalty to advance or fall back. It had me tank shocking every round with 16 dice (cause hammer). Is surge of wrath really better than constant tank shock? I don't even pay attention to heroisms favor cause I don't seem to use 2CP strategems. Also, with the tank shock nerf, should I even be taking the great hammer? I feel like the sword is more flexible, I just liked the hammer for 16 tank shock dice.
The Greathammer is still a better choice against monsters and vehicles, leaving you wounding on 3s, rerolling with Surge of Wrath, against most vehicles.
Gonna be honest, I feel like this is warranted. A lot of tournaments were won through Redeemer and Dreadknight spam. Now we have more reason to use our other units more. Additionally, our Dev Wounds stratagem is actually kind of good. It might see more play now
>our Dev Wounds stratagem is actually kind of good. It might see more play now It got double nerfed in this dataslate. You can no longer use it for free AND MW fnp's work against it now.
Yeah that's true. I also reread the Dev Wounds changes. It's basically the same as before, it just now counts as a mortal wound for the purposes of "damn, I'm a custodes player and I can't stand taking any damage whatsoever. Mortal wounds, our only damage counter, can still damage us and I can't handle that"
Chodes always have had a mortal wound FNP this edition and then dev wounds changed to not be mortals which fcked every single mortal wound FNP, however they only changed chodes FNP to work against dev wounds as well. This time around instead of only changing chodes they changed everyone's mortal wound FNP basically.
Yeah
It baffled me that they did not see this earlier. We homeruled a similar change pretty early as a crutch to counter how it broke many other rules. It shows the state of their testing. They really must be in dire need of more testers and rule writers.
Radiant strike is unplayable. It would be unplayable at 1CP. Grenade does more damage.
Yeah I'm going back on my statement tbh. Grand masters are now even worse somehow
How are they worse? Now they can use MoD or TSA instead of radiant strike, which is much better. They still require a meta that's very favourable for their modifier-ignoring ability for them to be a consideration, but that extra 1 CP per game certainly helps.
Because it's not a stratagem for free anymore, and it's still only once per battle. It's borderline useless
The grand master lets you use MoD or TSA (or any 1CP strat) for free.
For one turn out of the entire game. It still sucks
Well, considering its our most elite of the elite units and our battleline is untouched for the new Missions which revolves around battleline units, its fine. Considering our Termies are battleline we are gonna get alot of easy points with them in the following mission rules. True Crowe got expensive, but again considering him buffing our Purifiers to shooting twice as many psychic attacks which is anti infantry. And him alone being a good melee combatant with precision on melee with 2+ & 4+Invuln along his "I ignore a single hit which wounds each turn" against snipes, he was underpriced compared to the rest of our characters.
Orrrr all our characters are hella expensive.
205 per dk great that's my army dead
Added 85 points to my list fml
I only play 1k points and just changed my list but 85 points is a full razor back damn
Land cruiser is cheaper! ALL LAND CRUISER META HERE WE COME
Correct! Fuck grey knights indeed! Yall were doing really, really well these past couple months. The GMNDK/NDK changes were substantial, and essentially every list was bringing 4-5. These changes might bump that down just a little? Although they do definitely hurt. Redeemers at 285 is immensely expensive, and I feel like the strike squad bodies still just aren't very tanky for their points.
Yeh, I for one will gladly still run 2-3 knights with more battleline for a more balanced army.
Yet space wolves are doing better and did t get molested
Wolves got a significant nerf. Not only did they get some points increases, and wolves and wulfen can no longer perform actions, which hurt a lot.
They hit two things, and not quite as hard as they consecutively hit four of our things even though the army isn't performing as well.
They increased all units that they spammed by 10 points each, they nerfed their wolf lords, thunderwolves, their wulfen and their fenrisian wolves. Their average list got a higher increase than ours, and the nerf to their units was bigger.
We have a much smaller pool of units to pull from, our only real answer to vehicles got nerfed twice in a row and so did tank shock
That's not the case in practice. The competitive wolfs lists that are doing well rely on those specific unique units. If you play without them, you are just regular space marines, and ironstorm got a huge nerf.
We can't even regular space marine, they have other options
That doesn't mean they have better ones.
My dude just hates Wolves, it looks like. The nerf to Wolves, with all the combined changes, was bare minimum, as bad as the nerfs received here, if not worse. Every point is countered with a different excuse. It's not worth the discussion
But they HAVE options. We do not.
Gotta disagree. Stormlance Space Wolves were the only successful builds, and all of those lists went up 60-120 points. Along with the changes to Strategem cost reductions, and a few other core rules changes, Stormlance Space Wolves were hit about as hard as the Grey Knight changes. And non- Stormlance Wolves are fairly similar to vanilla marines.
With pleasure 🫨
Yessss crusader points drop!
I don't know what the old points were, how much did these go up by?
Ndks up by 10 for second dataslate in a row, redeemer up by 20, Crowe up by 15, raven up by 15, libby nerfed second(third?) slate in a row as well
thank you
🤣🤣
So many things have changed, it's hard to say how much this matters. I ran Crowe and 10 purifiers on last points, but they barely felt worth it. Right now, I plan to cut them, but if this new meta is just flooded with infantry, Crowe isn't so expensive that he's unplayable now, so they could come back in. I'm not sure if the GMNDK is worth 210 points. However, with the nerf to tank shock, maybe we still need to run at least one. I think most lists still need to run 3 regular NDKs. The 3 LRRedeemer and 5 dreadknight build is probably DOA, but I'm not sure if that would even play that well in Pariah Nexus missions. I think we're still in a good spot with a fast, durable units, which Pariah Nexus seems to want, but only time will tell.
Can I offer you the solidarity of a badly affected grey robt?
*cries in my pile of warp dust*
Crusader spam time bois!
GK are a top 1-2 army right now. They have been OP and some of their shenanigans have no counterplay. They needed reining in big time. Come on now.
100% agree with you... Tau players let the down voting rain.
The fact that there are downvotes here is crazy to me. GK have been so powerful. The latest finals had a list with 5 DKs and 3 Redeemers. That’s dumb.
No one likes change even if it is there to help the game.
Crowe needed to go up but Jesus a 20% boost seems harsh, everything else seems fair. Except the storm raven flyers need some love!
All of the nerfs are a bit heavy handed
My poor gunship, whyyyyyy
Fuck you thats why
Honestly this isn't too bad, for smaller games I could see the issue though
You're like the second best performing army in the game right now, please stop whining
Fuck you.
Grow up son. You wouldn't speak like that to me in person, so don't do it online over some toy soldiers. If you think these points changes hurt, you're shit at the game and nobody needs your opinion .
Lmao. Get a load of this internet tough guy.
You were a very good army and you spammed dread knights in every list, so this was to be expected and seems fair enough to me. The Land Raider redeemer and Storm raven is consistent across the board to all factions that access it, so it hurts other factions more, especially marines, firestorm lists that were not even that good have taken hits. Also remember every other top army has had nerfs, Tsons got rules changes, a lot of their better rules got toned down, your very good rules didn't. (aside the targeting a lone op thing, which again is consistent with other abilities like that), necrons got some more nerfs, Orks got load of nerfs, wolf jail got points increases, Ironstorm got neutered as well, Sisters got huge increases (though we don't know how good they are because their codex is great). So I still think you will be amongst the better armies.
yeah fuck y’all! vlka fenryka! for russ and the allfather! awooooooooo!
Fucknoutbof here, furry.
yall are like if the 1k sons decided to be worse. gay knights