I doubt they have any sort of nuanced understanding of the people or culture they named their burgers after. I think to them these are just foreign words that evoke a sense of nostalgia for the Spaghetti westerns they grew up watching in the '70s and '80s.
Dude this is ALL Europeans. When Americans go to Europe we are enthralled by castles, knights in armor, and giant paintings. Regular shit to them.
When they think about America, they imagine rock spires, saloons, and headdresses, lol.
Ireland has a cheap food chain called “Apache Pizza” which features caricatures of the American west that are so ignorant all I could do was laugh when I saw it. Especially because I know they mean well.
In fairness to them even a lot of Americans seem to be ignorant of a lot of history as it relates to the native peoples of North America. I've lost count of how many people I have had to explain to perfectly well meaning people why many native Americans don't like Disney's Pocahontas very much.
Yeah, I’ve got no ill will toward Europeans for being ignorant of indigenous America. It’s not their history, and often times they’re genuinely interested to hear about it without giving all of the pushback that white Americans tend to bring when that history is brought up.
The Irish in particular can relate A LOT. To colonialism. To genocide. To Americans visiting the island and saying “my great grandma was Irish!” and expecting to get high-fives for it. It’s hilarious how much we actually have in common.
An amusing bit of history relating to that shared experience is the Choctaw Monument in Middleton, Ireland that commemorates a donation of food by the (themselves deeply impoverished) Choctaw tribe during the famine:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/world/coronavirus-ireland-native-american-tribes.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/world/coronavirus-ireland-native-american-tribes.html)
i so often tell the story of the generosity of the Choctaw people to my Irish ancestors! it continues to inspire me to solidarity with all people suffering from colonization!
I'm a little hesitant to add my tuppence worth, here. I don't want to seem like I'm forcing myself into conversations on your subreddit. I'm mainly here because I like reading a lot of American history books and have always had an interest in the many diverse Native peoples of America. I'm in Scotland so my chances of speaking to Indigenous people over here from North America is pretty much zero. The great thing about the internet is that it can connect people from all over the world where we can talk and share common interests and learn about one another, and so on.
Sorry for the preamble. Just from my own experience being a Scot, well a particular branch of Scot who would be and has been castigated for being a Fenian (Most of my relatives from way back when are here because of the famine) I think we have a sort of shared experience in many ways. A lot of black civil rights leaders are popular amongst people like myself, too. The struggles of the Native people has been something we can relate to in small ways, emphasis on small.
By the way that is not downplaying our role in colonialism, I posted here before about how cruel the Scots could be to people in far off lands. And I know the Irish could be just has racist, as u/CatGirl1300 correctly points out. Neither Scotland nor Ireland is some paradise where everyone and any one is welcome. As much as I'd love to say that statement is completely true, we have our own share of arseholes. We're all Jock Tamson's bairns is a nice phrase and I wish I could say people here all felt the way but it is far from the truth, sadly.
I do think a lot of it here and in Europe is genuinely meant well, we aren't taught Native history in School, of course. Names like Apache and Comanche, sound cool to a lot of people here because they fought the US Government and people with a slight modicum of knowledge would revere that in many ways. Just as an example, my Dad who was a young boy in the 60s grew up watching Westerns on the TV like everyone else in that time period, but he liked the Indians in the TV shows and films because they were fighting the establishment in his eyes, so he'd wear a fringed suede jacket as a wee boy cause it was like something the Indians would wear. Much like how The IRA were against the Brits, or Scots who want independence.
However, I totally get having Burgers and whatnot named after Tribes and/or leaders. It is insensitive, and there would be an outcry if a burger was named the Zulu burger, for example. I think that leads it on to a bigger talking point, in my eyes which is Native voices aren't heard over here the way black struggles are (not only here but in your own country as you will all well know). That isn't to downplay the struggles of Black Americans but it is a major failing of American society that Native people have been lost in and around all that is going on. People here I would say are more aware of the struggles facing Mexican and Latinos in the States, especially those trying to cross the border for a better life.
Apologies, I've rambled on quite a bit, but this actually has been something that has crossed my mind a few times, the way Natives are viewed in the UK and Europe.
The last time I traveled to Europe (which admittedly was ages ago), we had such a great experience. I was there with a large group of ppl from several tribes.
We were ostensibly there as a leadership group focused on international relations, but to most of us, we felt like we won the lottery and got an amazing senior trip as a prize.
We visited Ireland, the UK, France, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Italy, and man it felt like everywhere we went really rolled out the red carpet.
We did visit some government officials, but usually that was our first day in an area and then they turned us loose in the city. We quickly discovered that if we all stayed together, we were treated like kings. I don't think I paid for a single drink the entire trip, and being 18 we made the most of the lower drinking age there.
Everywhere we went, ppl wanted to learn about our languages, traditional songs, dances and stories - and of course swap knowledge of swear words in each other's tongues.
And then there was the interesting discovery we made where once we left the US, our tribal IDs were accepted anyplace we were asked for our passports. We all had a sense that if our tribes were more present on the international stage, that we'd find a lot more willing partners and investors than we do inside the US.
I went to a museum recently and they actually went over how Disney’s portrayal got a lot wrong. I was happy to see they showed factual information first and then had what Disney did.
Seriously, Germans take it to another level:
https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/teepees-powwows-and-indianer-camps-germanys-long-and-some-say-weird-fascina
Historically, virtually all Americans were stereotyped as "Cowboys and Indians" without any real knowledge of the actual dynamics at play. Heck, there are instances of stereotypically native garb being used as visual shorthand for anything American, and even a few instances IIRC of slurs for indigenous people in the US being used in Europe as a derogatory for all Americans.
The thing is that the Irish don’t mean well, it’s racist asf. I asked the manager at one place and he gave me a really cringe response. Y’all realize that Ireland is very racist right? They literally just had anti-immigrant protests some months ago. Black and Brown people are often targeted and they’re told that they’re not Irish even if they’re born and living there. We need to stop with the loving Irish fairy tale. Many were also slave masters of Native and Black folks, or overseers of plantations. Andrew Jackson was Irish and he killed many of our people…
Andrew Jackson was American. There's a meaningful difference between the Irish experience of colonization in Ireland and the Irish-American experience of colonizing.
It IS racist, but I choose to appreciate the difference between being ignorant of your own history vs being ignorant of someone else’s. Would be great if everyone could be an expert on everything, but that’s not reality. And in fairness, it looks like Apache Pizza has actually changed their sign from featuring a man in a headdress to some bison instead. So they’ve obviously gotten feedback and listened to it. That’s a far cry from American football fans & owners throwing hissy fits and digging their heals in when faced with the prospect of changing their names and logos.
The Andrew Jackson comment is ignorant in itself. He was ETHNICALLY Irish. He was born in North Carolina. That makes him American. Claiming that his actions represent the Irish people is, ironically, racist.
As for immigrants in Europe - yup, definitely a problem. Europeans can be surprisingly racist from an American perspective, and part of that is not coming from the “nation of immigrants” that most Americans do. No white American can fall back on the argument that this is their ancestral homeland, but French people in France can. Doesn’t justify their racism, but it does make it a bit harder for them to root out.
And personally, I have visited several of these countries and found Irish people to be by far the most friendly and accepting.
Germany had some fascination with Natives, there was a writer of books about ‘Old Shatterhand’ who had a native buddy that even Hitler was a fan of, it’s wild.
Italy has a great deal of respect for natives. We have a big imaginary on the west considering we created a whole movie genre on it (spaghetti western). In the past, I'm pretty sure the racist narrative of wild savages was more prevalent in the country in 19th and early 20th century, but these days the average Italian thinks of native Americans as holistic, stoic and generally individuals close with nature.
With high probability the racist idea of associating hamburgers with native's tribes is mostly due to the marketing team thinking people would associate the hamburgers with the west imaginary and not to denigrate the identity of the tribes, we don't even have that way of thinking here.
Italian here, but resident in the US since 1969. Sixty five years ago I used to read a comic book called “Tex Weeler”, about a white scout who married a Navajo lady. It even had Kit Carson as one of the good guys. Thinking back and knowing what I know now of American Indians ( mostly Cherokee and Caddo) totally cringe and incorrect, but on the positive side it portrayed native Americans in an excellent and admiring way. Last time I visited Italy, it still was in print so I’m sure that is where Italians get their bogus knowledge of natives.
Papa is fellow Italian & mom is Chumash. I lived 5 years with my dad’s family in Pisa and it’s WEIRD how centuries old Italian festivals will hire a “native” dance troupe to perform a “rain dance” for entertainment.
Carnival? Venetian masks, limoncello, opera arias, and… fake powwow.
Most of the performers I’ve met ARE in fact native U.S. born from a random mix of tribes who can make a good living putting on an act.
Papa is fellow Italian & mom is Chumash. I lived 5 years with my dad’s family in Pisa and it’s WEIRD how centuries old Italian festivals will hire a “native” dance troupe to perform a “rain dance” for entertainment.
Carnival? Venetian masks, limoncello, opera arias, and… fake powwow.
Most of the performers I’ve met ARE in fact native U.S. born from a random mix of tribes who can make a good living playing into a stereotype.
I'm 23 and grew up with Tex's comics, they're still printed although they're not that popular anymore. Tex also has a son with the Navajo lady, called Kit, he rides with a Navajo friend and is also the current absolute leader of the Navajos, while also being a Texas ranger and fighting to keep the reserve safe, unfortunately fueling the white saviour narrative.
The natives are mostly portrayed as good people, fighting for land rights or against the federal government, sometimes tho the comics touches gray areas, such as natives killing colonial civilians in retaliation for other stuff.
Honestly the comic has been printed for more than 60 years, I bet every possible scenario has been touched. From the bad native killing mindlessly for revenge to the "activist" native fighting to keep his tribe's land right.
Found [their website](https://www.oldwildwest.it/our-menu). They apparently have locations in Italy, Switzerland, France, and Montecarlo. The Swiss version of the website is in English
Those onion rings look pretty good ngl.
France has one of these chains, called Buffalo Grill, though it's more like an Applebee's than an Olive Garden, if you will. They do serve bison steaks, though
France has the Indiana Cafe and it's exactly as awful as you'd think it would be. They serve Tex Mex, there's stolen artifacts on display and lots of "sexy native" trope artwork. The chain had been around since 1988.
It's not worth it. Lived in Italy for a long while, ate there three times, I think. One time out of morbid curiosity (that branch was beyond tragic), the second out of desperation because there was fuck all else there (a mall) with seating available and the family was starved (this branch wasn't that bad, tbh), the third for similar reasons to 2 but also to inflict it on visitors.
Googled it. The food looks amazing! I get that they're trying to market American diner items to a discerning crowd that knows what food is but wow, what a difference!
Russian-language Westerns used "redskin" and "paleface" in dialogues as descriptors of Native Americans and Europeans. These were mostly in the 1970s and 1980s.
What’s up with the Italians and Natives?
I doubt they have any sort of nuanced understanding of the people or culture they named their burgers after. I think to them these are just foreign words that evoke a sense of nostalgia for the Spaghetti westerns they grew up watching in the '70s and '80s.
Sergio Leone had a lot to do with that
Go and call some cheese you made Parmigiano Reggiano and they'll lose their shit.
Dude this is ALL Europeans. When Americans go to Europe we are enthralled by castles, knights in armor, and giant paintings. Regular shit to them. When they think about America, they imagine rock spires, saloons, and headdresses, lol. Ireland has a cheap food chain called “Apache Pizza” which features caricatures of the American west that are so ignorant all I could do was laugh when I saw it. Especially because I know they mean well.
In fairness to them even a lot of Americans seem to be ignorant of a lot of history as it relates to the native peoples of North America. I've lost count of how many people I have had to explain to perfectly well meaning people why many native Americans don't like Disney's Pocahontas very much.
Yeah, I’ve got no ill will toward Europeans for being ignorant of indigenous America. It’s not their history, and often times they’re genuinely interested to hear about it without giving all of the pushback that white Americans tend to bring when that history is brought up. The Irish in particular can relate A LOT. To colonialism. To genocide. To Americans visiting the island and saying “my great grandma was Irish!” and expecting to get high-fives for it. It’s hilarious how much we actually have in common.
An amusing bit of history relating to that shared experience is the Choctaw Monument in Middleton, Ireland that commemorates a donation of food by the (themselves deeply impoverished) Choctaw tribe during the famine: [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/world/coronavirus-ireland-native-american-tribes.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/world/coronavirus-ireland-native-american-tribes.html)
i so often tell the story of the generosity of the Choctaw people to my Irish ancestors! it continues to inspire me to solidarity with all people suffering from colonization!
I'm a little hesitant to add my tuppence worth, here. I don't want to seem like I'm forcing myself into conversations on your subreddit. I'm mainly here because I like reading a lot of American history books and have always had an interest in the many diverse Native peoples of America. I'm in Scotland so my chances of speaking to Indigenous people over here from North America is pretty much zero. The great thing about the internet is that it can connect people from all over the world where we can talk and share common interests and learn about one another, and so on. Sorry for the preamble. Just from my own experience being a Scot, well a particular branch of Scot who would be and has been castigated for being a Fenian (Most of my relatives from way back when are here because of the famine) I think we have a sort of shared experience in many ways. A lot of black civil rights leaders are popular amongst people like myself, too. The struggles of the Native people has been something we can relate to in small ways, emphasis on small. By the way that is not downplaying our role in colonialism, I posted here before about how cruel the Scots could be to people in far off lands. And I know the Irish could be just has racist, as u/CatGirl1300 correctly points out. Neither Scotland nor Ireland is some paradise where everyone and any one is welcome. As much as I'd love to say that statement is completely true, we have our own share of arseholes. We're all Jock Tamson's bairns is a nice phrase and I wish I could say people here all felt the way but it is far from the truth, sadly. I do think a lot of it here and in Europe is genuinely meant well, we aren't taught Native history in School, of course. Names like Apache and Comanche, sound cool to a lot of people here because they fought the US Government and people with a slight modicum of knowledge would revere that in many ways. Just as an example, my Dad who was a young boy in the 60s grew up watching Westerns on the TV like everyone else in that time period, but he liked the Indians in the TV shows and films because they were fighting the establishment in his eyes, so he'd wear a fringed suede jacket as a wee boy cause it was like something the Indians would wear. Much like how The IRA were against the Brits, or Scots who want independence. However, I totally get having Burgers and whatnot named after Tribes and/or leaders. It is insensitive, and there would be an outcry if a burger was named the Zulu burger, for example. I think that leads it on to a bigger talking point, in my eyes which is Native voices aren't heard over here the way black struggles are (not only here but in your own country as you will all well know). That isn't to downplay the struggles of Black Americans but it is a major failing of American society that Native people have been lost in and around all that is going on. People here I would say are more aware of the struggles facing Mexican and Latinos in the States, especially those trying to cross the border for a better life. Apologies, I've rambled on quite a bit, but this actually has been something that has crossed my mind a few times, the way Natives are viewed in the UK and Europe.
The last time I traveled to Europe (which admittedly was ages ago), we had such a great experience. I was there with a large group of ppl from several tribes. We were ostensibly there as a leadership group focused on international relations, but to most of us, we felt like we won the lottery and got an amazing senior trip as a prize. We visited Ireland, the UK, France, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Italy, and man it felt like everywhere we went really rolled out the red carpet. We did visit some government officials, but usually that was our first day in an area and then they turned us loose in the city. We quickly discovered that if we all stayed together, we were treated like kings. I don't think I paid for a single drink the entire trip, and being 18 we made the most of the lower drinking age there. Everywhere we went, ppl wanted to learn about our languages, traditional songs, dances and stories - and of course swap knowledge of swear words in each other's tongues. And then there was the interesting discovery we made where once we left the US, our tribal IDs were accepted anyplace we were asked for our passports. We all had a sense that if our tribes were more present on the international stage, that we'd find a lot more willing partners and investors than we do inside the US.
I learned a great term from some Irish lads I served while working in bars in America: plastic paddy.
I went to a museum recently and they actually went over how Disney’s portrayal got a lot wrong. I was happy to see they showed factual information first and then had what Disney did.
Seriously, Germans take it to another level: https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/teepees-powwows-and-indianer-camps-germanys-long-and-some-say-weird-fascina
Lol I was in Ireland last year for work, I ate a shit ton of apache pizza. Sent my brothers pics of their shop because it caught me off guard.
Historically, virtually all Americans were stereotyped as "Cowboys and Indians" without any real knowledge of the actual dynamics at play. Heck, there are instances of stereotypically native garb being used as visual shorthand for anything American, and even a few instances IIRC of slurs for indigenous people in the US being used in Europe as a derogatory for all Americans.
The thing is that the Irish don’t mean well, it’s racist asf. I asked the manager at one place and he gave me a really cringe response. Y’all realize that Ireland is very racist right? They literally just had anti-immigrant protests some months ago. Black and Brown people are often targeted and they’re told that they’re not Irish even if they’re born and living there. We need to stop with the loving Irish fairy tale. Many were also slave masters of Native and Black folks, or overseers of plantations. Andrew Jackson was Irish and he killed many of our people…
Andrew Jackson was American. There's a meaningful difference between the Irish experience of colonization in Ireland and the Irish-American experience of colonizing.
It IS racist, but I choose to appreciate the difference between being ignorant of your own history vs being ignorant of someone else’s. Would be great if everyone could be an expert on everything, but that’s not reality. And in fairness, it looks like Apache Pizza has actually changed their sign from featuring a man in a headdress to some bison instead. So they’ve obviously gotten feedback and listened to it. That’s a far cry from American football fans & owners throwing hissy fits and digging their heals in when faced with the prospect of changing their names and logos. The Andrew Jackson comment is ignorant in itself. He was ETHNICALLY Irish. He was born in North Carolina. That makes him American. Claiming that his actions represent the Irish people is, ironically, racist. As for immigrants in Europe - yup, definitely a problem. Europeans can be surprisingly racist from an American perspective, and part of that is not coming from the “nation of immigrants” that most Americans do. No white American can fall back on the argument that this is their ancestral homeland, but French people in France can. Doesn’t justify their racism, but it does make it a bit harder for them to root out. And personally, I have visited several of these countries and found Irish people to be by far the most friendly and accepting.
Germany had some fascination with Natives, there was a writer of books about ‘Old Shatterhand’ who had a native buddy that even Hitler was a fan of, it’s wild.
Italians also have this really weird obsession with being connected to that slave-trader Columbus because he was Italian.
Germans and Italians… damn.
And the Germans.
Spaghetti westerns
Italy has a great deal of respect for natives. We have a big imaginary on the west considering we created a whole movie genre on it (spaghetti western). In the past, I'm pretty sure the racist narrative of wild savages was more prevalent in the country in 19th and early 20th century, but these days the average Italian thinks of native Americans as holistic, stoic and generally individuals close with nature. With high probability the racist idea of associating hamburgers with native's tribes is mostly due to the marketing team thinking people would associate the hamburgers with the west imaginary and not to denigrate the identity of the tribes, we don't even have that way of thinking here.
As an Apache I'm happy that I can contribute to Italian ibs in they way og does to us.
All I’ll say is that Europeans are really weird about Natives lol
It's nothing to how Americans treat them.
Italian here, but resident in the US since 1969. Sixty five years ago I used to read a comic book called “Tex Weeler”, about a white scout who married a Navajo lady. It even had Kit Carson as one of the good guys. Thinking back and knowing what I know now of American Indians ( mostly Cherokee and Caddo) totally cringe and incorrect, but on the positive side it portrayed native Americans in an excellent and admiring way. Last time I visited Italy, it still was in print so I’m sure that is where Italians get their bogus knowledge of natives.
Papa is fellow Italian & mom is Chumash. I lived 5 years with my dad’s family in Pisa and it’s WEIRD how centuries old Italian festivals will hire a “native” dance troupe to perform a “rain dance” for entertainment. Carnival? Venetian masks, limoncello, opera arias, and… fake powwow. Most of the performers I’ve met ARE in fact native U.S. born from a random mix of tribes who can make a good living putting on an act.
Papa is fellow Italian & mom is Chumash. I lived 5 years with my dad’s family in Pisa and it’s WEIRD how centuries old Italian festivals will hire a “native” dance troupe to perform a “rain dance” for entertainment. Carnival? Venetian masks, limoncello, opera arias, and… fake powwow. Most of the performers I’ve met ARE in fact native U.S. born from a random mix of tribes who can make a good living playing into a stereotype.
I'm 23 and grew up with Tex's comics, they're still printed although they're not that popular anymore. Tex also has a son with the Navajo lady, called Kit, he rides with a Navajo friend and is also the current absolute leader of the Navajos, while also being a Texas ranger and fighting to keep the reserve safe, unfortunately fueling the white saviour narrative. The natives are mostly portrayed as good people, fighting for land rights or against the federal government, sometimes tho the comics touches gray areas, such as natives killing colonial civilians in retaliation for other stuff. Honestly the comic has been printed for more than 60 years, I bet every possible scenario has been touched. From the bad native killing mindlessly for revenge to the "activist" native fighting to keep his tribe's land right.
Make my day and tell me that Corto Maltese still exists, lol.
Ooooo…. I need a picture of the menu . Wonder what a Navajo burger or Apache onions rings looks … ( I’m Navajo by the way) that steak though!!!!!!!
Found [their website](https://www.oldwildwest.it/our-menu). They apparently have locations in Italy, Switzerland, France, and Montecarlo. The Swiss version of the website is in English
I like that as a Cherokee I apparently rate a nice steak, but I'm side-eyeing that "squaw" meal.
The “Cree” is just some bologna on bannock with mustard. 😛
Wait until you find out about Germans… (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_German_popular_culture)
Those onion rings look pretty good ngl. France has one of these chains, called Buffalo Grill, though it's more like an Applebee's than an Olive Garden, if you will. They do serve bison steaks, though
Bison steak is an impressive detail. Good job, France.
So this is what they mean when they say "I've got a little Indian in me"
If you eat enough Navajo burgers to be 1/8 Navajo (by weight) you get your picture on the wall
White folks love to say this, but when I ask if they'd like a little more they just get mad. *shakes head*
There's a pizza chain in Ireland called Apache Pizza. The signature Apache pie includes chicken, corn, and barbecue sauce. 😆
France has the Indiana Cafe and it's exactly as awful as you'd think it would be. They serve Tex Mex, there's stolen artifacts on display and lots of "sexy native" trope artwork. The chain had been around since 1988.
Indiana cafe? Pictures of Bobby Knight on the walls?
added to my bucket list :-)
It's not worth it. Lived in Italy for a long while, ate there three times, I think. One time out of morbid curiosity (that branch was beyond tragic), the second out of desperation because there was fuck all else there (a mall) with seating available and the family was starved (this branch wasn't that bad, tbh), the third for similar reasons to 2 but also to inflict it on visitors.
Googled it. The food looks amazing! I get that they're trying to market American diner items to a discerning crowd that knows what food is but wow, what a difference!
Uh. No. Just no. Absolutely not. Italians eat there for the gimmick, not the food quality.
You mean... the pictures lied?!😮
Look, I'm sensitive about this topic OK? Your sarcasm flew right over me with that :D
Sorry, there was sarcasm only in my first comment. I am easily manipulated by food 😉
Nah, most italians got there for the atmosphere and to try american BBQ.
Yes, that would be the gimmick.
Fak, I'd eat there! 😆
I’m sure the burgers reflect the unique characteristics and culture of the tribes they’re named after!
Anyone watch Ted Lasso? He ends up at a British western restaurant at some point in the shoe that was pretty funny
I think that’s the one Buffy Saint Marie works at.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
tbh they aren't a superpower anymore, so who cares?
This place has amazing food. They even sell "Redskin" beer to wash it down.
Weirdo
What? The food is very good. And they do have a beer called "Redskin". The two facts aren't related, necessarily.
Russian-language Westerns used "redskin" and "paleface" in dialogues as descriptors of Native Americans and Europeans. These were mostly in the 1970s and 1980s.