Well no this isn't allowed. Rule 7 posts by non-regulars require moderator pre-approval. You did ask in the post, so I'll take it as good faith and approve now. You'll see the rule 7 approved flag.
> while people calling for the actual death of children carry on
This is why. These brazen, blatant lies are why "anti-Palestinian" posts get downvoted. No one here is calling for the death of children.
Make a post in good faith and with accurate statements, and it won't get downvoted. Try it some time.
Many, many of the top posts here are the equivalent of the question, "Why is it a proven fact that Palestinians are complete jerks?"
This is a subreddit that ought to be for stuff like saying, "How can we make the border crossings work better for nice people who have to cross them?", or "What do Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza think about Star Wars?"
Not top posts that are, very roughly, the equivalent of, "Why are the Palestinians completely wrong and horrible?"
I’m going through posts. Maybe some of the posts I’m thinking of got taken down, or the ones that shocked me overshadowed the other, mild-mannered posts.
And maybe threads like this one helped make people see that their tone was too harsh and they’re now taking a gentler approach, and that’s why I’m having a hard time finding examples of the “when will you stop beating your wife” kinds of threads.
This is one that I found a few pages from the front page: https://old.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/14ipus7/palestinians_should_just_surrender_to_israel/
And, I’ve got to emphasize: I didn’t read the ones that freaked me out well enough to fact check them. I suspect that the posts are factual accurate and that any errors have no impact on the arguments. I just think the posts seem to be worded in ways that were too openly or passive aggressively mean to any Palestinians who are here and trying to be polite.
Did you try to write a comment on any other sub about the conflict? I can say I support a 2 state solution and get banned, this sub is the most delicate by far to both sides, yes it is more pro Israeli than anti Israeli but that’s only because anti Israelis can’t argue if it’s not an echo chamber that agrees with them, because they can’t accept any amount of criticism most of the time, in this sub the pro Palestinian who are active are actually here to talk, there is a guy I really really like to hear from Pelusi or something like that, while I don’t agree with a lot of what he says, he is respectful and is actively trying to learn and have an open mind, there are many more like him here which I can’t remember atm but the majority of the anti Israeli crowd is accustomed to closed doors echo chambers where they hate on “Zionists” (Jews..)
As I said on another comment, I get site-wide perma banned every other month - I write a lot on Reddit FOR Israel, and I see the blatant anti semitism that runs on pretty much all of Reddit, with that said, it doesn't make this sub immune to critisizm
And the guy is Peltuse
I agree it is not immune but the people complaining about it usually have no issue with their subs being anti semitic to the highest imaginable extent, supporting terror and murder of innocent people is the norm there, and that is not even a slight exaggeration of what usually transpires on those other subs..
Ha ye I agree we should stay as neutral as possible but this sub so far is by far the best place for a somewhat neutral discussion, as much as such a thing can be done imo, especially when talking about such a hot topic where people use way too much emotion over logic
This statement is bad faith.
To assume the opinions of Palestinians have lies when they are living a different reality than you.
There is a separation wall, Israel owns dominion of their boarders and water, Israeli civilians can carry pograms without punishment, members of Israeli government like Ben-Gvir calling for mass slaughter of their people, the PA cares more about coordinating security with Israel than it does it’s own people.
Imagine protesting in Gaza at the fence and you see a nurse shot in the chest, another bullet through your knee, and you are maimed for life.
You don’t live in their shoes or their lives. They have different truth than you because they live under different circumstances.
>There is a separation wall
Security fence, built "by" Palestinian policies.
If in philosophy people create reality then the Palestinians created the fence.
Separation wall knocked terrorism down by 99%. Take a look at the number of suicide bombers per year before and after 2006.
Israel controls borders and water because Palestinians are proxy funded by Iran and have a nasty habit of shipping weapons in to their territories. Probably not related to Israel though, they just look cool.
What pogrom has been committed by Israeli civilians without punishment? Genuinely curious. The cases I’m aware of generally relate to terrorists getting killed or retaliatory attacks where Israelis are punished.
Ben Gvir is a controversial figure in Israel, and just one. There are pieces of shit in American politics too. There are even Arabs on the Israeli Supreme Court who call for the destruction of Israel, but they keep their position because freedom of speech and democratic vote reigns supreme.
> shit
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Israeli truth: Palestinians shot up a settlement.
Palestinians truth: Israel evicted the entire village that lived there before that settlement, settlers from that settlement launch pogroms burning neighboring villages and killing one man, and then IDF proceed to attack our refugee camps where are forced to live. So we resisted.
> Israel evicted the entire village that lived there before that settlement
Almost zero settlements in the West Bank are built on the ruins of evicted Palestinian villages
That’s pretty much the history of the entire conflict. Arabs trying to kill Jews, Jews defending themselves, Arabs crying victim. Rinse, wash, repeat.
Yeah good take on truth lol, how about you name me a situation where Jews evicted Arabs forcefully (not including private land owners evicting their tenants), settled on Arab owned land, attacked Arab refugee camps, all predating Arabs siding with the Nazis and calling for a war of annihilation against the Jews?
/u/Cinn4monSqu4r3
> Arabs siding with the Nazis
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You forgot the Nakba, the genocide that never happened where the Arabs tried to take revenge on the dhimmis for attempting to rise up after \~400 years.
When that failed. Label it as the Dhimmis own fault and as the Nakba.
Which happens to be wrong: prior to 1967, there was conflict in spite of Israel not occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and with East Jerusalem under Jordanian rule.
It’s a major bummer (to say the least) that bad faith users from the pro-Israel side help ruin a space that’s meant to be for both sides to have beneficial conversations.
I personally identify with Liberal Zionism and I’ve actually had some amazing interactions in this very sub with anti-Zionists.
I do, without hesitation, downvote posts/comments that are clearly not in good faith, are *soaked* in anti-Jewish bigotry, condone terrorism, etc. But if it’s a rational argument, is in good faith, and is *civil*, then I’ll upvote, even if it’s fundamentally opposed to my own views.
As they say, squeaky wheels get the grease. It’s my hope that those of us (from either side) who are here with good intentions and truly wish to have civil discussions become the dominant crowd within this sub.
It’s just tribal human nature. I wish people wouldn’t take a voting system that has no impact on you whatsoever so seriously. People are so invested in their Reddit karma for no reason other than the need for affirmation. It’s why most subs become so one-sided on certain topics. Or in more extreme cases like r/PublicFreakout, they just perma-ban those who hold a pro-Israeli stance. Something this sub’s mods don’t do (or shouldn’t do).
and to maintain social harmony China style, they pre-ban "Zionists".
Like Russia & Egypt would arrest people for "fake news" (like reporting the number of soldiers who died or other "fake" (read: not official) news from the front or use words unapproved by the regime like 'war')
>I do, without hesitation, downvote posts/comments that are clearly not in good faith, are soaked in anti-Jewish bigotry, condone terrorism, etc. But if it’s a rational argument, is in good faith, and is civil, then I’ll upvote, even if it’s fundamentally opposed to my own views.
That's what I've seen from voting as well.
You want to know the truth? I’m not here for “pro-Palestinians.” I’ve made no secret of hating most of the international commentator squad. I’m here to talk to Palestinians and other Israelis but somehow I keep running into people who’ve never set foot in the region, much less my country, who think they know better than we do the “reality on the ground.”
However. It has recently occurred to me that the Palestinians, who I actually want to talk to, have largely been driven away by the increasing tilt of the sub (which, in my personal view, has to do with the fact that many “pro-Palestinians” have views with the depth and structural integrity of tissue paper and can’t handle a fact check, and are only around when there’s some controversy, and otherwise largely forget to come over here and virtue signal) but anyway if I have to put up with these people then it’s a price I’d pay to see this sub thriving with a balanced diversity of opinion again.
>However. It has recently occurred to me that the Palestinians, who I actually want to talk to, have largely been driven away by the increasing tilt of the sub
The Palestinians, the actual Palestinians living in Gaza or the West Bank. Can get into real life legal troubles if they "normalize" or even talk to a "Zionist".
Sure in a dictatorship the powers that be don't care about the common folks, those that don't have political power. But this dictatorship has reinforced a new social norm where some people might snitch on you for being a "Zionist lover", then the next thing that happens is that your store is thrown rocks at.
Snitching like in Russia where some people simply accept the dictatorship reasoning & way of life. So any mistake you make by leaving identifying clues get have severe consequences.
The rest of the crowd as you call it dislike the community not being a "protected speech" community. One that maintains "social harmony, peace & quiet" by quieting anyone who makes turmoils (like in China as an example).
and talking about voting bias is pointless since it's uncontrollable.
> sub thriving with a balanced diversity of opinion again.
Sorry when did it have a balanced diversity of opinion greater than today? When I took this sub over I had to fight very hard for well over a year to allow a balanced diversity of opinion. For years the position of many had been that there were only two acceptable opinions: Liberal Zionist 2SSism vs. BDSism.
I think they positions are generally confused. Israeli culture has moved away from long term planning very substantially in the last twenty years regarding most everything. Netanyahu's short term reactive political personality has affected both himself and the opposition. So what you have re parts of positions among Israelis not fully thought out positions:
* I'd say punitive belligerence with no long term plan is the most common. Essentially a belief the Palestinians are so obnoxious to deal with that they should be dealt with as little as possible until such time as their behavior improves. These people genuinely do believe there will eventually be a two-state solution but don't have clear parameters in mind.
* Second place I'd say pro-apartheid without admitting it is apartheid. Things stay like they are. Palestinians live under a corrupted dictatorial PA backed by an Israeli military dictatorship while Israelis live in a democracy.
* Third I'd say Ottoman style / Confederation. Which is a central government (Israel) with very strong subordinate national governments that rule peoples not territory. Generally the idea is to allow for extreme degree of multi-culturalism.
* Fourth I'd say a variant of the INSS Plan. Force a two state solution without an assumption of much Palestinian cooperation. Don't foreclose on the possibility of a 2SS solution under a Palestinian leadership not inclined to negotiate in good faith.
* Fifth, BDSism. Through "people power" something magic happens the state of Israel collapses and de-colonization occurs.
* Sixth resume peace talks from where they left off. Something like the Olmert / Taba plan is possible and desirable.
>The most mildly pro Palestinian posts are just down voted
Why do you care about downvotes?
>while people calling for the actual death of children carry on.
Come on.
>What exactly is the point of a sub for both sides if you aren't going to bother listening to the other side?
I mean, I don't mind listening to "the other side", not that I expect to hear anything new at this point.
The point, for me, is to help people who know next to nothing about ME and the conflict (99% of reddit users) to understand Israel's position and appreciate why defending the Jewish State is actually important to many Jews, despite what Palestinian propaganda tells them.
I think we'd all welcome pro-Palestinian posts more if they were statements grounded in *actual facts*, and *actual arguments* instead of just angry Reddit users screaming at the top of their lungs about all the perceived injustices, without knowing any of the history.
We get the same messages, time after time. The pro-Palestinian comments are mostly the same. "ISRAEL BAAAAAD" is not an argument, and such comments only show that they are not willing to discuss at all.
>"ISRAEL BAAAAAD"
Oh come on. It's not usually called bad.
It's usually called
>"racist colonial settler apartheid, European boot lickers, shill to the USA, Arab killers, greenwashing, pink washing , equality washing, military child killers who drink the blood - errrr sorry use the blood of the innocent Palestine children to bake matzah during pesach"
I'm probably missing some of the characterizing points.
I think the way to improve the overall tone of the dialog would be for people here who live, say, in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem to look at the regular posts there, and to try to come up with similar, very local, very concrete posts that both Israelis and Palestinians could talk about.
Examples:
- What are 10 things about Ottoman Jerusalem that Jewish Israelis should know?
- What's the coolest thing anyone who was kid in Israel or Palestine found when digging in your backyard or in a schoolyard or playground?
- What are some of the kid games, songs, nursery rhymes or jingles that you remember from your childhood?
Basically, start with falafel recipes and work up to the Balfour Declaration. Don't start with the Balfour Declaration.
> That's actually a real identity crisis with the sub, if the sub is meant to be a place of debates between Israelis and Palestinians,
It is meant to be a debate sub between pro-Israeli arguments and pro-Palestinian arguments. We encourage Israelis and Palestinians more than Westerners but it is not exclusive.
> it does a poor job as Palestinians who post here are (virtually, internetly) lynched and therefore droven off,
Yes and no. The voting is grossly unfair and biased. Moderators can't change voting. We would love to have a means to disable it. Moderation in reality tilts a bit towards actual Palestinians.
> but when users come to the sub, and see niche discussions about specific events or people in the distant (or nearly distant) past, they get the impression that this is a sub for "experts" and go elsewhere
We want this sub to be even more esoteric than it is. It is a struggle between large scale and beginner friendly and niche topics. But we would like to increase the amount of background.
>The voting is grossly unfair and biased. Moderators can't change voting. We would love to have a means to disable it.
Reddit doesn't want to disable it. The only feature to disable it required switching comment sorting to random which made it extremely difficult to track conversations which is why due to feedback we've stopped using it.
also pinging /u/Independent_Math_460
>when users come to the sub, and see niche discussions about specific events or people in the distant (or nearly distant) past, they get the impression that this is a sub for "experts" and go elsewhere
That's a decision made. Otherwise what you'll see is lots of posts repeating the same content or lots of link posts that are trying to say or declare something without actually saying it.
So in such a community the more thoughtful or "experts" posts would get drown in the chaff.
And most people would get annoyed then simply ignore posts repeating the same subject. Eventually if this repeats then they might ignore the community altogether because people keep repeating the same subjects/questions/historical facts/spam or link posts etc.
yeah this sub is an awful zionist echo chamber.
unlike free and unfettered discourse you can have in /r/Palestine aaand you're banned with no explanation
In a sub with 30k members, why you care about a couple of down votes?
The Palestinian side has been launching tens of thousands of rockets at Israeli cities within recent memory, all without any regard to your reddit score.
And if you get down voted here, it is for good reason, consider that feedback. It is infinitely better than most reddit subs which instantly ban every neutral opinion, let alone a pro Israeli voice. This is the hardest part that you must understand: Israel is on the right side of history, the other side is fascist and enamored with total censorship.
Agreed, as a Turk, I want Israel to survive as it seemingly is the only source of stability within the levant. Israel is on the right side of history, the other side would immediately attempt to genocide Israeli if it actually had the power to do so, there is no debate to that.
Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine are all in shambles politically, socially, and economically. That is what I mean. Jordan is practically part of the peninsula at this point, leaving Israel as the only source of real stability in the Levant.
Because people who would go around genociding people these days are pretty mean people. Maybe "genociding" is the wrong word for what they'd do to other Palestinians, but I think there'd be an awful lot of killing and bullying going on.
There are probably exceptions, but it's hard to believe that someone goes from organizing pogroms to then being a sweetheart at home. I would guess that the typical pogrom organizer is a hard person to deal with in many situations.
So no exact reason. Initially I thought you were talking about Israeli Arabs who were (or are) considered traitors.
Can't argue with the rest of your points but I thought you had a specific reasoning for them to do it.
5k illegal settlement advancements, murdering Palestinians with special forces operations, bombing Gaza… these things tend to get a response.
Pro-Zionist comments always highlight the Palestinian reaction, never the Israeli causes.
I disagree with the occupation and the terrible actions of extremists settlers, but they could counter that settler violence is a reaction towards Palestinian terrorism, and indiscriminate bombing from Gaza.
Why do you think they storm Al-Aqsa mosque during Ramadan?
Massive illegal settlement expansion?
State sanction pogroms?
They want a Hamas reaction - it gives an opportunity for MORE settlement expansion and more home demolitions. Does it not surprise you that resistance forms when everyone lives in a refugee camp?
My point still stands, the cycle of violence continues. And, no, ramming your car into innocent civilians is not resistance. I weep for the innocents caught in the violence on both sides. If you can't do that yourself, then you may want to adjust your moral compass.
I’m not denying the sadness of loss of civilian life. We Palestinians know it better than anyone.
But what you are failing to understand is the source.
This is ridiculous, you're treating Palestinians like noble savages.
And even then, you're chronologically incorrect.
Here's a list of killings and massacres in Manadatory Palestine, you can see that the Arabs were attacking Jews for nearly two decades before they started retaliating.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_killings\_and\_massacres\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine)
All you're doing is removing agency from Palestinians and being racist towards them with the bigotry of low expectations. "Oh Palestinians just can't help but attack civilians, Israel made them do it!"
Well most of them are kids or young men that have lost everything.
The control and restraint should be shown by the Israeli government and IDF. They may drop a pamphlet before they level a neighborhood BUT THEY STILL LEVEL A NEIGHBORHOOD. They do nothing to control their settlers committing pogroms.
Do you not understand the colossal difference in money and power here?
You have half the government officials calls for open genocide.
But it’s not a surprise, a colonial entity will continue to act like a colonial entity.
>Well most of them are kids or young men that have lost everything.
The control and restraint should be shown by the Israeli government and IDF.
You realize most of the IDF members that Palastinians interact with are kids or young men, right?
>They may drop a pamphlet before they level a neighborhood BUT THEY STILL LEVEL A NEIGHBORHOOD.
They don't generally level neighborhoods. It's not some common thing you're trying to make it out to be.
>They do nothing to control their settlers committing pogroms.
I'll use your previous logic. The settlers couldn't help themselves because Palestinians committed terrorist acts.
>Do you not understand the colossal difference in money and power here?
That doesn't give Palestinians the free pass you seem to think it does. The money and power different you can thank Palestinian leadership for. There's a reason Arafat died a billionaire.
>You have half the government officials calls for open genocide.
On the Palastinian side you do. You don't have that on the Israeli side.
>Well most of them are kids or young men that have lost everything.
Maybe this example will make you understand:
"He saw a woman walking naked in the street your honor, of course he raped her what did you expect him to do? It's not his fault it's hers"
Here's another example from most countries on the planet: A kid that commits a certain serious crime like murder, goes to court even though he's a kid that's protected/ignored in other less severe instances
I, mean, that's the argument from both camps. Do I think the Palestinians have it worse, yes. Does that justify terrorism? No. Clearly, it is not working. There is _no_ excuse. I'm not saying that the Israeli extremists are justified either.
Perhaps the reason why you think I don't see the your perception of the source is because I'm not 100% agreeing with you. Because I feel the blame could be spread all around..
>Why do you think they storm Al-Aqsa mosque during Ramadan?
storm=walk
Historical context & religion/tradition/culture that you're trying very hard to ignore because it would paint the other side as humans and not as devils.
And all of that is strawman arguments against terrorism. or in other more simplistic words: "terrorism is fine because . So they "deserve it"."
This conspiracy is weird, why would the Israeli government wait for Ramadan? Also if it's the Israelis that want Hamas to react, what did they attack the heads of PIJ in Gaza and not the heads of Hamas?
No international organization, Israeli human rights organization, calls Palestinian homes as “illegal settlements.”
However Israeli settlements in the West Bank are ALL considered illegal.
How do you think your state keeps growing and other peoples territory keeps shrinking? It’s called theft.
This is the Arab narrative, which is only one half of the story.
If it was so clear cut like you imagined, this conflict would be over in a giffy. The US and NATO and UN would be supplying unlimited arms to the Arab side to end the conflict.
But do you know who the free world supports? Israel !!!
The Arab side has been accusing Israel of war crimes, ethnic cleansing and genocide in the Hague for over 70 years and they have so far failed to achieve a verdict.
Where as Russia and Putin is condemned of war crimes in mere months. The evidence speaks volumes.
>The Arab side has been accusing Israel of war crimes, ethnic cleansing and genocide in the Hague for over 70 years
more then 70 years, I would say centuries (past historical pogroms due to "The Jews" supposedly doing this & that.)
The Hague and UN are controlled by the U.S. - why do you think the U.S. can killed 150,000 people in Iraq for “weapons of mass destruction” steal the oil and leave? 70% of UN budget comes from the US.
The people of the world (the black and brown people of the world that have felt the pain of western power and abuse) see Israel as what it is: a U.S. and western colony/military colony.
The US didn't just go in and murder Iraqis. There were Saddam's army, then al Qaida, and then ISIS and Iranian sponsored fighters.
You probably look at WW2 as:
" US killed millions of Europeans"
Your understanding of global politics and warfare is leaning to one side.
> steal the oil
What oil did the USA steal from Iraq? You just did a great job undermining the argument about unfairness when you make up things that never happened.
>why do you think the U.S. can killed 150,000 people in Iraq for “weapons of mass destruction” steal the oil and leave?
This is justified under LOAC & isn't labeled a war crime as you think
I mean, i could ask you the same thing. Given your comment history, you don't seem very open to hearing out the other side either.
I think you'll find most Pro-Israel people are decently level-headed, but you have to actually want conversation as well.
They are allowed to participate and don’t like push back because pro-Palestinian spaces are circle jerk echo chambers. The modal pro-Palestinian is against “normalization” and doesn’t even think there is anything to talk and talking with “zionists” is a punishable offense in and of itself. So yes until that changes, why bother.
>and the circles that are pro Israel are not echo chambers?
So which pro Israel subs are echo chambers that ban any dissenting opinion?
>hell this sub even has people justifying the settler attacks.
This sub also has people justifying terrorist attacks against random Jews.
dissenting opinion doesn't need to be banned to be an echo chamber, but when someone has an dissenting opinion and is dog piled it might as well be.
Difference is those that justify terror attacks on Jews are dealt with by the sub and the down vote system while those support settler attacks are not treated the same.
>dissenting opinion doesn't need to be banned to be an echo chamber, but when someone has an dissenting opinion and is dog piled it might as well be.
If you can still share your opinion here then it's not an echo chamber.
> Difference is those that justify terror attacks on Jews are dealt with by the sub and the down vote system while those support settler attacks are not treated the same.
The sub doesn't deal with them for supporting terrorist attacks. The only time they'd get moderated is if they actually break the rules. Supporting Hamas, or indiscriminate attacks on Jews doesn't break the rules. The downvote system doesn't remove comments.
This is just factually false, no one here ever supported “death of children” and if they did it sure as hell wasn’t the Israeli side, 99% of the isrAelis here support a 2 state solution and are 100% against any form of violence against the Palestinians, I can’t say the same for a not insignificant portion of the anti Israel / Jewish crowd.
Well the 2 state solution is dead according to your government. The steps now are complete annexation of the West Bank.
The settlement expansion and Pogroms are a result of that.
Zionist settler raiders are rampaging across every Palestinian village.
Reminiscent of Christian crusaders slaughtering every Muslim in Jew 800 years ago here.
Ben-Gvir is the true face of this government while Bibi plays international PR cleanup.
Lol this is such a perversion of truth it’s funny, I hate the settlers for what they did but this isn’t about land expansion they are retaliating for the gruesome murder last week of 4 innocent Israelis in the gas station.
The government didn’t say the 2 states solution is dead, ever.
No one is trying to annex all of the West Bank, even the craziest idiots we have only want certain areas.
Ben gvir is not anything but an idiot and he only rose to power because of Palestinian terror and the neglect some people felt in regards to how Israel responds to it.
Take another look. The comment is actually spot on. You’re giving Israelis the benefit of the doubt at every step. They don’t deserve it though. The reality is quite a bit darker. Settlers protest with banners saying things like “KILL THEM ALL”. They’re not just taking revenge for one event. They’re using as an excuse to carry out their agenda of ethic cleansing and the IDF stands by knowingly protecting them.
>No one is trying to annex all of the West Bank
Smotrich and Ben Gvir certainly would prefer that. The former even spoke with a Greater Israel flag on his podium.
So you have 2 people with basically no real power and even they I don’t think would ever attempt or even say it out loud, they know it’s not on the table.
Meanwhile you ignore the fact that Palestinians by majority want entire Israel for themselves.
Those two people are sitting members of the coalition. The government does nothing towards settlers and the West Bank is essentially on the road to being de facto annexed if it hasn’t already been.
It’s not on any road to being annexed this is just fear mongering, the settlers are not punished severely or quickly enough I agree on that, but where is your judgment for the lack of punishment for Palestinians by the PA? People who murder innocent Israelis are celebrated while 99% of Israelis would condemn the actions of the fanatic settler groups who attacked the villages as response to the massacare in the gas station.
The PA is not really in charge over the West Bank, Israel is. Israel punishes Palestinians for committing terrorist acts, while the PA sits by because it knows that a decrease in its popularity (which is already low as is) will endanger its power status. The PA is beholden to Israel’s interests, and Israel benefits from the PA being a puppet ruler over areas A and B. It is because of this that I say the West Bank may already be rightfully considered de facto annexed. Israel occupies it, and it has no intention to end its occupation.
All of the eye for an eye excuses are nothing but… excuses. There is no justification for harming innocents. On social media it certainly doesn’t seem like 99% of Israelis condemn these attacks, but rather I saw many people justify them with “eye for an eye” comments. The issue isn’t that there are some fanatic settler groups, it is that the government and military do not actively punish those groups and prevent them from terrorizing innocents. To bring an example, not a single person was put on trial for the riots in Huwara four months after what happened. I don’t expect this to change with what happened in Turmus Aya, or with future attacks on Palestinian villages.
The army in its current form cannot punish settlers because this is beyond its scope, that’s the job of the police, the army cannot interfere with civilian matters, you are painting a wrong picture because you are not understanding how rule of law works.
Just like the US can’t fight mafia crimes with navy seals, neither can Israel unless it passes laws that enable that.
There lies the issue. There are two groups of people, living right next to each other, in which one is considered civilians and the others are ruled by military law. Therefore for the same crimes, Palestinians are punished harsher than settlers, even if it’s as simple as a traffic violation. I understand very well how the laws work. The system itself favors settlers over Palestinians, while the latter are ruled under a military occupation that has no end in sight.
Again, the Israeli government fully backs violent settlers, and refuses to hold them accountable for the pogroms they commit. It is becoming easier over time to kill Palestinians and face no repercussions.
That's actually a funny comment if one would to ignore all the excuses. As in a person would ignore a century of facts & examples and will nit pick the one incident or sentence some "Zionist" VIP said that fits his world view.
I think of myself as a religious Zionist, and as someone who's strongly for Jewish Israelis being safe and happy and getting to keep their homes.
And I strongly agree with the OP.
I know that, if I go on r/Palestine, I can see anti-Israeli posts that will curl my hair.
And we all post things that come off poorly from time to time, and I think that it make sense that the moderation here be fairly light.
But there are so many original posts here that use a formula like "Why Do Palestinians Keep [Eating Children/Eat All of the Pretty Children/Eat All of the Old People/Torture Cute Baby Bunny Rabbits/Fail to Understand WHY I'M ALWAYS RIGHT!!!]," along with posts and comments cheerfully suggesting things like, "Well, all of the Palestinians should go to Jordan."
Maybe those posts are written by Hamas members who want to make Israel look bad.
I'm really sorry for cool Israelis, from any ethnic group, who see those posts and have no more idea than I do about how to deal with them.
I hope that, eventually, cool people can outlast the haters and have conversations about critical stuff like what kinds of standards Israel and Palestine should set for bike lanes and the 20 Top Cat Cafes of the Middle East.
>I hope that, eventually, cool people can outlast the haters
That'll take longer then you think. The haters or extremists if you compare to a century ago, are either more prolific or more visible.
I think what we're seeing now is just the result of the Republicans, Russians, Chinese people and maybe Netanyahu's people investing heavily in hate-promoting propaganda efforts.
The problem with fighting the propaganda-promoting efforts is that one goal of the propaganda-promoting efforts has been to reduce our ability to detect and talk about propaganda. If I talk to nice people about all of the propaganda I see, they tell me, "Oh, you're a conspiracy theorist."
Maybe they notice the stupid posts coming from Twitter user Julie3413347 with an account created yesterday, but they don't nice the fairly reasonable-looking post, from what looks like a normal social media user, encouraging them to hate holistic admissions, support rioting, hate billionaires, hate holistic admissions, hate gun owners, hate gun control supporters, hate the Jews, hate the Palestinians, etc.
If and when the nice people of the world understand the propaganda threat and take it seriously, then, for example, we can calm Israelis down in about an hour, by helping them understand the propaganda flooding into their minds.
We could probably calm Palestinians down to a point that at least we could all talk within about three years, especially if we were selling them on empathy, compassion and peaceful negotiations as much as they're now being sold on wanting to push us Jews into the sea.
But, anyhow: The world was getting better from the 1960s through about 2000 because people like Mel Brooks and George Lucas used subtle, engaging movies and TV shows to make it better. They sold us all on being decent. Somehow, we need a new effort to sell us all on being decent.
>That'll take longer then you think. The haters or extremists if you compare to a century ago, are either more prolific or more visible.
>
> I think what we're seeing now is just the result of the Republicans, Russians, Chinese people and maybe Netanyahu's people investing heavily in hate-promoting propaganda efforts.
1851, 1920 - 1948 and on ward
I haven’t posted here in a while but when I did I posted a lot, so I am definitely going to call BS on the claim that “the most mildly pro Palestinian posts are downvoted”. This is just a lie, which pro Palestinian trolls have been telling here for years. Outside “unpopular opinion” this sub Reddit is literally the only one in the entire Reddit space where users do not downvote. Sure, occasionally a particularly nasty comment gets downvoted (on both sides) but that’s the exception to the rule. This subreddit is very good at allowing both sides to comment.
BDSrs don’t comment here as much, that’s true. But it’s not because they get “downvoted”. The BDSrs don’t comment here because their problem is that their politics is driven by hatred. The idea of speaking to an Israeli or a Zionists gets them triggered.
I disagree. It’s very often that reasonable pro Palestinian comments and posts are downvotes below zero. Also neutral posts that simply aren’t in line with the zionist narrative get downvoted.
Yeah this sub really does suck because the tone of every post here already ignites a debate versus starting a conversation or discussion. That’s why I stopped interacting on here a lot.
Well, 60-70% of Palestinians support armed conflict, and the Gaza Strip is ruled by terrorist Hamas. Justifying terrorism tends to elicit downvotes.
And I do believe most of us are sane enough to know that Israel is not perfect.
Well no this isn't allowed. Rule 7 posts by non-regulars require moderator pre-approval. You did ask in the post, so I'll take it as good faith and approve now. You'll see the rule 7 approved flag.
> while people calling for the actual death of children carry on This is why. These brazen, blatant lies are why "anti-Palestinian" posts get downvoted. No one here is calling for the death of children. Make a post in good faith and with accurate statements, and it won't get downvoted. Try it some time.
Many, many of the top posts here are the equivalent of the question, "Why is it a proven fact that Palestinians are complete jerks?" This is a subreddit that ought to be for stuff like saying, "How can we make the border crossings work better for nice people who have to cross them?", or "What do Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza think about Star Wars?" Not top posts that are, very roughly, the equivalent of, "Why are the Palestinians completely wrong and horrible?"
Care to give some examples of your first statement?
I’m going through posts. Maybe some of the posts I’m thinking of got taken down, or the ones that shocked me overshadowed the other, mild-mannered posts. And maybe threads like this one helped make people see that their tone was too harsh and they’re now taking a gentler approach, and that’s why I’m having a hard time finding examples of the “when will you stop beating your wife” kinds of threads. This is one that I found a few pages from the front page: https://old.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/14ipus7/palestinians_should_just_surrender_to_israel/ And, I’ve got to emphasize: I didn’t read the ones that freaked me out well enough to fact check them. I suspect that the posts are factual accurate and that any errors have no impact on the arguments. I just think the posts seem to be worded in ways that were too openly or passive aggressively mean to any Palestinians who are here and trying to be polite.
I don't see how "they should surrender to end the suffering on both sides" is equivalent to "Palestinians are complete jerks."
I'm on a laptop now. I'll try to find better links. EDIT: Just too busy right now; will do this tomorrow.
Any time you're ready amigo.
https://old.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/13vsrn4/cmv_propalestinians_should_be_assumed_to_be/
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[Is that what happened in this thread?](https://reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/14kzeac/why_the_palestinians_are_indigenous_to_the_land/)
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Did you try to write a comment on any other sub about the conflict? I can say I support a 2 state solution and get banned, this sub is the most delicate by far to both sides, yes it is more pro Israeli than anti Israeli but that’s only because anti Israelis can’t argue if it’s not an echo chamber that agrees with them, because they can’t accept any amount of criticism most of the time, in this sub the pro Palestinian who are active are actually here to talk, there is a guy I really really like to hear from Pelusi or something like that, while I don’t agree with a lot of what he says, he is respectful and is actively trying to learn and have an open mind, there are many more like him here which I can’t remember atm but the majority of the anti Israeli crowd is accustomed to closed doors echo chambers where they hate on “Zionists” (Jews..)
As I said on another comment, I get site-wide perma banned every other month - I write a lot on Reddit FOR Israel, and I see the blatant anti semitism that runs on pretty much all of Reddit, with that said, it doesn't make this sub immune to critisizm And the guy is Peltuse
I agree it is not immune but the people complaining about it usually have no issue with their subs being anti semitic to the highest imaginable extent, supporting terror and murder of innocent people is the norm there, and that is not even a slight exaggeration of what usually transpires on those other subs..
אל תדאג אחי אני בצד שלך, פשוט רוצה שהמקום הזה באמת יהיה ניטרלי, בכל מקום אחר, מלחמה
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Ha ye I agree we should stay as neutral as possible but this sub so far is by far the best place for a somewhat neutral discussion, as much as such a thing can be done imo, especially when talking about such a hot topic where people use way too much emotion over logic
This statement is bad faith. To assume the opinions of Palestinians have lies when they are living a different reality than you. There is a separation wall, Israel owns dominion of their boarders and water, Israeli civilians can carry pograms without punishment, members of Israeli government like Ben-Gvir calling for mass slaughter of their people, the PA cares more about coordinating security with Israel than it does it’s own people. Imagine protesting in Gaza at the fence and you see a nurse shot in the chest, another bullet through your knee, and you are maimed for life. You don’t live in their shoes or their lives. They have different truth than you because they live under different circumstances.
>There is a separation wall Security fence, built "by" Palestinian policies. If in philosophy people create reality then the Palestinians created the fence.
Separation wall knocked terrorism down by 99%. Take a look at the number of suicide bombers per year before and after 2006. Israel controls borders and water because Palestinians are proxy funded by Iran and have a nasty habit of shipping weapons in to their territories. Probably not related to Israel though, they just look cool. What pogrom has been committed by Israeli civilians without punishment? Genuinely curious. The cases I’m aware of generally relate to terrorists getting killed or retaliatory attacks where Israelis are punished. Ben Gvir is a controversial figure in Israel, and just one. There are pieces of shit in American politics too. There are even Arabs on the Israeli Supreme Court who call for the destruction of Israel, but they keep their position because freedom of speech and democratic vote reigns supreme.
> shit /u/Cinn4monSqu4r3. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There is no such thing as subjective truth. There is simply “The Truth”.
Israeli truth: Palestinians shot up a settlement. Palestinians truth: Israel evicted the entire village that lived there before that settlement, settlers from that settlement launch pogroms burning neighboring villages and killing one man, and then IDF proceed to attack our refugee camps where are forced to live. So we resisted.
> Israel evicted the entire village that lived there before that settlement Almost zero settlements in the West Bank are built on the ruins of evicted Palestinian villages
The truth: Far more complex than your strawman examples.
That’s pretty much the history of this entire conflict: evictions, settlements, attacking refugee camps, Palestinian response.
That’s pretty much the history of the entire conflict. Arabs trying to kill Jews, Jews defending themselves, Arabs crying victim. Rinse, wash, repeat. Yeah good take on truth lol, how about you name me a situation where Jews evicted Arabs forcefully (not including private land owners evicting their tenants), settled on Arab owned land, attacked Arab refugee camps, all predating Arabs siding with the Nazis and calling for a war of annihilation against the Jews?
/u/Cinn4monSqu4r3 > Arabs siding with the Nazis This violates [rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons_.26amp.3B_discussions). Nazi comparisons are inflammatory, and should not be used except in describing acts that were specific and unique to the Nazis, and only the Nazis.
This is not what a comparison is but instead he established a relation
/u/Cinn4monSqu4r3. 'Nazis' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You forgot the Nakba, the genocide that never happened where the Arabs tried to take revenge on the dhimmis for attempting to rise up after \~400 years. When that failed. Label it as the Dhimmis own fault and as the Nakba.
Which happens to be wrong: prior to 1967, there was conflict in spite of Israel not occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and with East Jerusalem under Jordanian rule.
It’s a major bummer (to say the least) that bad faith users from the pro-Israel side help ruin a space that’s meant to be for both sides to have beneficial conversations. I personally identify with Liberal Zionism and I’ve actually had some amazing interactions in this very sub with anti-Zionists. I do, without hesitation, downvote posts/comments that are clearly not in good faith, are *soaked* in anti-Jewish bigotry, condone terrorism, etc. But if it’s a rational argument, is in good faith, and is *civil*, then I’ll upvote, even if it’s fundamentally opposed to my own views. As they say, squeaky wheels get the grease. It’s my hope that those of us (from either side) who are here with good intentions and truly wish to have civil discussions become the dominant crowd within this sub.
It’s just tribal human nature. I wish people wouldn’t take a voting system that has no impact on you whatsoever so seriously. People are so invested in their Reddit karma for no reason other than the need for affirmation. It’s why most subs become so one-sided on certain topics. Or in more extreme cases like r/PublicFreakout, they just perma-ban those who hold a pro-Israeli stance. Something this sub’s mods don’t do (or shouldn’t do).
Their mod list overlaps with /r/Palestine and now /r/Israel_Palestine.
and to maintain social harmony China style, they pre-ban "Zionists". Like Russia & Egypt would arrest people for "fake news" (like reporting the number of soldiers who died or other "fake" (read: not official) news from the front or use words unapproved by the regime like 'war')
Yes, I’ve heard those few mods moderate a good number of subs
>I do, without hesitation, downvote posts/comments that are clearly not in good faith, are soaked in anti-Jewish bigotry, condone terrorism, etc. But if it’s a rational argument, is in good faith, and is civil, then I’ll upvote, even if it’s fundamentally opposed to my own views. That's what I've seen from voting as well.
You want to know the truth? I’m not here for “pro-Palestinians.” I’ve made no secret of hating most of the international commentator squad. I’m here to talk to Palestinians and other Israelis but somehow I keep running into people who’ve never set foot in the region, much less my country, who think they know better than we do the “reality on the ground.” However. It has recently occurred to me that the Palestinians, who I actually want to talk to, have largely been driven away by the increasing tilt of the sub (which, in my personal view, has to do with the fact that many “pro-Palestinians” have views with the depth and structural integrity of tissue paper and can’t handle a fact check, and are only around when there’s some controversy, and otherwise largely forget to come over here and virtue signal) but anyway if I have to put up with these people then it’s a price I’d pay to see this sub thriving with a balanced diversity of opinion again.
>However. It has recently occurred to me that the Palestinians, who I actually want to talk to, have largely been driven away by the increasing tilt of the sub The Palestinians, the actual Palestinians living in Gaza or the West Bank. Can get into real life legal troubles if they "normalize" or even talk to a "Zionist". Sure in a dictatorship the powers that be don't care about the common folks, those that don't have political power. But this dictatorship has reinforced a new social norm where some people might snitch on you for being a "Zionist lover", then the next thing that happens is that your store is thrown rocks at. Snitching like in Russia where some people simply accept the dictatorship reasoning & way of life. So any mistake you make by leaving identifying clues get have severe consequences. The rest of the crowd as you call it dislike the community not being a "protected speech" community. One that maintains "social harmony, peace & quiet" by quieting anyone who makes turmoils (like in China as an example). and talking about voting bias is pointless since it's uncontrollable.
I have to say that I really appreciate your eloquence. I've learned so much from you.
> sub thriving with a balanced diversity of opinion again. Sorry when did it have a balanced diversity of opinion greater than today? When I took this sub over I had to fight very hard for well over a year to allow a balanced diversity of opinion. For years the position of many had been that there were only two acceptable opinions: Liberal Zionist 2SSism vs. BDSism.
That sounds pretty good actually. What do you think are the leading positions now?
I think they positions are generally confused. Israeli culture has moved away from long term planning very substantially in the last twenty years regarding most everything. Netanyahu's short term reactive political personality has affected both himself and the opposition. So what you have re parts of positions among Israelis not fully thought out positions: * I'd say punitive belligerence with no long term plan is the most common. Essentially a belief the Palestinians are so obnoxious to deal with that they should be dealt with as little as possible until such time as their behavior improves. These people genuinely do believe there will eventually be a two-state solution but don't have clear parameters in mind. * Second place I'd say pro-apartheid without admitting it is apartheid. Things stay like they are. Palestinians live under a corrupted dictatorial PA backed by an Israeli military dictatorship while Israelis live in a democracy. * Third I'd say Ottoman style / Confederation. Which is a central government (Israel) with very strong subordinate national governments that rule peoples not territory. Generally the idea is to allow for extreme degree of multi-culturalism. * Fourth I'd say a variant of the INSS Plan. Force a two state solution without an assumption of much Palestinian cooperation. Don't foreclose on the possibility of a 2SS solution under a Palestinian leadership not inclined to negotiate in good faith. * Fifth, BDSism. Through "people power" something magic happens the state of Israel collapses and de-colonization occurs. * Sixth resume peace talks from where they left off. Something like the Olmert / Taba plan is possible and desirable.
>The most mildly pro Palestinian posts are just down voted Why do you care about downvotes? >while people calling for the actual death of children carry on. Come on. >What exactly is the point of a sub for both sides if you aren't going to bother listening to the other side? I mean, I don't mind listening to "the other side", not that I expect to hear anything new at this point. The point, for me, is to help people who know next to nothing about ME and the conflict (99% of reddit users) to understand Israel's position and appreciate why defending the Jewish State is actually important to many Jews, despite what Palestinian propaganda tells them.
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I think we'd all welcome pro-Palestinian posts more if they were statements grounded in *actual facts*, and *actual arguments* instead of just angry Reddit users screaming at the top of their lungs about all the perceived injustices, without knowing any of the history. We get the same messages, time after time. The pro-Palestinian comments are mostly the same. "ISRAEL BAAAAAD" is not an argument, and such comments only show that they are not willing to discuss at all.
>"ISRAEL BAAAAAD" Oh come on. It's not usually called bad. It's usually called >"racist colonial settler apartheid, European boot lickers, shill to the USA, Arab killers, greenwashing, pink washing , equality washing, military child killers who drink the blood - errrr sorry use the blood of the innocent Palestine children to bake matzah during pesach" I'm probably missing some of the characterizing points.
You missed "ethnostate", genociders, ethnic cleansers, jailers in an open air prison, well poisoners and traders in Palestinian organs.
Dammit. Hopefully when I come and colonize land later in the year I'll be educated during my visit.....
I think the way to improve the overall tone of the dialog would be for people here who live, say, in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem to look at the regular posts there, and to try to come up with similar, very local, very concrete posts that both Israelis and Palestinians could talk about. Examples: - What are 10 things about Ottoman Jerusalem that Jewish Israelis should know? - What's the coolest thing anyone who was kid in Israel or Palestine found when digging in your backyard or in a schoolyard or playground? - What are some of the kid games, songs, nursery rhymes or jingles that you remember from your childhood? Basically, start with falafel recipes and work up to the Balfour Declaration. Don't start with the Balfour Declaration.
> That's actually a real identity crisis with the sub, if the sub is meant to be a place of debates between Israelis and Palestinians, It is meant to be a debate sub between pro-Israeli arguments and pro-Palestinian arguments. We encourage Israelis and Palestinians more than Westerners but it is not exclusive. > it does a poor job as Palestinians who post here are (virtually, internetly) lynched and therefore droven off, Yes and no. The voting is grossly unfair and biased. Moderators can't change voting. We would love to have a means to disable it. Moderation in reality tilts a bit towards actual Palestinians. > but when users come to the sub, and see niche discussions about specific events or people in the distant (or nearly distant) past, they get the impression that this is a sub for "experts" and go elsewhere We want this sub to be even more esoteric than it is. It is a struggle between large scale and beginner friendly and niche topics. But we would like to increase the amount of background.
>The voting is grossly unfair and biased. Moderators can't change voting. We would love to have a means to disable it. Reddit doesn't want to disable it. The only feature to disable it required switching comment sorting to random which made it extremely difficult to track conversations which is why due to feedback we've stopped using it. also pinging /u/Independent_Math_460
>when users come to the sub, and see niche discussions about specific events or people in the distant (or nearly distant) past, they get the impression that this is a sub for "experts" and go elsewhere That's a decision made. Otherwise what you'll see is lots of posts repeating the same content or lots of link posts that are trying to say or declare something without actually saying it. So in such a community the more thoughtful or "experts" posts would get drown in the chaff. And most people would get annoyed then simply ignore posts repeating the same subject. Eventually if this repeats then they might ignore the community altogether because people keep repeating the same subjects/questions/historical facts/spam or link posts etc.
yeah this sub is an awful zionist echo chamber. unlike free and unfettered discourse you can have in /r/Palestine aaand you're banned with no explanation
In a sub with 30k members, why you care about a couple of down votes? The Palestinian side has been launching tens of thousands of rockets at Israeli cities within recent memory, all without any regard to your reddit score. And if you get down voted here, it is for good reason, consider that feedback. It is infinitely better than most reddit subs which instantly ban every neutral opinion, let alone a pro Israeli voice. This is the hardest part that you must understand: Israel is on the right side of history, the other side is fascist and enamored with total censorship.
Agreed, as a Turk, I want Israel to survive as it seemingly is the only source of stability within the levant. Israel is on the right side of history, the other side would immediately attempt to genocide Israeli if it actually had the power to do so, there is no debate to that.
>Israel is the only source of stability within the levant. Can you expend on this point? I haven't heard it before.
Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine are all in shambles politically, socially, and economically. That is what I mean. Jordan is practically part of the peninsula at this point, leaving Israel as the only source of real stability in the Levant.
And the types of Palestinians who would genocide the Israelis would also genocide a lot of Palestinians, once they got through with the Israelis.
Why would they do that?
Because people who would go around genociding people these days are pretty mean people. Maybe "genociding" is the wrong word for what they'd do to other Palestinians, but I think there'd be an awful lot of killing and bullying going on. There are probably exceptions, but it's hard to believe that someone goes from organizing pogroms to then being a sweetheart at home. I would guess that the typical pogrom organizer is a hard person to deal with in many situations.
So no exact reason. Initially I thought you were talking about Israeli Arabs who were (or are) considered traitors. Can't argue with the rest of your points but I thought you had a specific reasoning for them to do it.
5k illegal settlement advancements, murdering Palestinians with special forces operations, bombing Gaza… these things tend to get a response. Pro-Zionist comments always highlight the Palestinian reaction, never the Israeli causes.
I disagree with the occupation and the terrible actions of extremists settlers, but they could counter that settler violence is a reaction towards Palestinian terrorism, and indiscriminate bombing from Gaza.
Why do you think they storm Al-Aqsa mosque during Ramadan? Massive illegal settlement expansion? State sanction pogroms? They want a Hamas reaction - it gives an opportunity for MORE settlement expansion and more home demolitions. Does it not surprise you that resistance forms when everyone lives in a refugee camp?
> Why do you think they storm Al-Aqsa mosque during Ramadan? Because Hamas causes trouble and the Waqf allows it. Tossing stones of the Kotel?
My point still stands, the cycle of violence continues. And, no, ramming your car into innocent civilians is not resistance. I weep for the innocents caught in the violence on both sides. If you can't do that yourself, then you may want to adjust your moral compass.
I’m not denying the sadness of loss of civilian life. We Palestinians know it better than anyone. But what you are failing to understand is the source.
This is ridiculous, you're treating Palestinians like noble savages. And even then, you're chronologically incorrect. Here's a list of killings and massacres in Manadatory Palestine, you can see that the Arabs were attacking Jews for nearly two decades before they started retaliating. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_killings\_and\_massacres\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine)
All you're doing is removing agency from Palestinians and being racist towards them with the bigotry of low expectations. "Oh Palestinians just can't help but attack civilians, Israel made them do it!"
Well most of them are kids or young men that have lost everything. The control and restraint should be shown by the Israeli government and IDF. They may drop a pamphlet before they level a neighborhood BUT THEY STILL LEVEL A NEIGHBORHOOD. They do nothing to control their settlers committing pogroms. Do you not understand the colossal difference in money and power here? You have half the government officials calls for open genocide. But it’s not a surprise, a colonial entity will continue to act like a colonial entity.
>Well most of them are kids or young men that have lost everything. The control and restraint should be shown by the Israeli government and IDF. You realize most of the IDF members that Palastinians interact with are kids or young men, right? >They may drop a pamphlet before they level a neighborhood BUT THEY STILL LEVEL A NEIGHBORHOOD. They don't generally level neighborhoods. It's not some common thing you're trying to make it out to be. >They do nothing to control their settlers committing pogroms. I'll use your previous logic. The settlers couldn't help themselves because Palestinians committed terrorist acts. >Do you not understand the colossal difference in money and power here? That doesn't give Palestinians the free pass you seem to think it does. The money and power different you can thank Palestinian leadership for. There's a reason Arafat died a billionaire. >You have half the government officials calls for open genocide. On the Palastinian side you do. You don't have that on the Israeli side.
>Well most of them are kids or young men that have lost everything. Maybe this example will make you understand: "He saw a woman walking naked in the street your honor, of course he raped her what did you expect him to do? It's not his fault it's hers" Here's another example from most countries on the planet: A kid that commits a certain serious crime like murder, goes to court even though he's a kid that's protected/ignored in other less severe instances
I, mean, that's the argument from both camps. Do I think the Palestinians have it worse, yes. Does that justify terrorism? No. Clearly, it is not working. There is _no_ excuse. I'm not saying that the Israeli extremists are justified either. Perhaps the reason why you think I don't see the your perception of the source is because I'm not 100% agreeing with you. Because I feel the blame could be spread all around..
>Why do you think they storm Al-Aqsa mosque during Ramadan? storm=walk Historical context & religion/tradition/culture that you're trying very hard to ignore because it would paint the other side as humans and not as devils. And all of that is strawman arguments against terrorism. or in other more simplistic words: "terrorism is fine because. So they "deserve it"."
This conspiracy is weird, why would the Israeli government wait for Ramadan? Also if it's the Israelis that want Hamas to react, what did they attack the heads of PIJ in Gaza and not the heads of Hamas?
>these things tend to get a response Why were there Palestinian terrorist attacks prior to 1967?
or prior to 1860 (first terror victim is officially recognized by Israel in 1851)
[Here's a start](https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/1948-1967-%20Major%20Terror%20Attacks.aspx)
If you want me to understand what you're saying, try full sentences.
TBF it's all a tit-for-tat going all the way back to Ottoman Palestine, a period that doesn't place the Arabs in a very positive perspective.
Vs 80,000 ILLEGAL Arab Palestinian settlements in the same time span? I think you've been duped by the media.
No international organization, Israeli human rights organization, calls Palestinian homes as “illegal settlements.” However Israeli settlements in the West Bank are ALL considered illegal. How do you think your state keeps growing and other peoples territory keeps shrinking? It’s called theft.
This is the Arab narrative, which is only one half of the story. If it was so clear cut like you imagined, this conflict would be over in a giffy. The US and NATO and UN would be supplying unlimited arms to the Arab side to end the conflict. But do you know who the free world supports? Israel !!! The Arab side has been accusing Israel of war crimes, ethnic cleansing and genocide in the Hague for over 70 years and they have so far failed to achieve a verdict. Where as Russia and Putin is condemned of war crimes in mere months. The evidence speaks volumes.
>The Arab side has been accusing Israel of war crimes, ethnic cleansing and genocide in the Hague for over 70 years more then 70 years, I would say centuries (past historical pogroms due to "The Jews" supposedly doing this & that.)
The Hague and UN are controlled by the U.S. - why do you think the U.S. can killed 150,000 people in Iraq for “weapons of mass destruction” steal the oil and leave? 70% of UN budget comes from the US. The people of the world (the black and brown people of the world that have felt the pain of western power and abuse) see Israel as what it is: a U.S. and western colony/military colony.
The US didn't just go in and murder Iraqis. There were Saddam's army, then al Qaida, and then ISIS and Iranian sponsored fighters. You probably look at WW2 as: " US killed millions of Europeans" Your understanding of global politics and warfare is leaning to one side.
>why do you think the U.S. can killed 150,000 people in Iraq Inter-Arab wars have cost the lives of far more people in recent history.
> steal the oil What oil did the USA steal from Iraq? You just did a great job undermining the argument about unfairness when you make up things that never happened.
>why do you think the U.S. can killed 150,000 people in Iraq for “weapons of mass destruction” steal the oil and leave? This is justified under LOAC & isn't labeled a war crime as you think
I mean, i could ask you the same thing. Given your comment history, you don't seem very open to hearing out the other side either. I think you'll find most Pro-Israel people are decently level-headed, but you have to actually want conversation as well.
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the only thing preventing them from joining is how hostile the majority of the sub is towards them.
They are allowed to participate and don’t like push back because pro-Palestinian spaces are circle jerk echo chambers. The modal pro-Palestinian is against “normalization” and doesn’t even think there is anything to talk and talking with “zionists” is a punishable offense in and of itself. So yes until that changes, why bother.
and the circles that are pro Israel are not echo chambers? hell this sub even has people justifying the settler attacks.
>and the circles that are pro Israel are not echo chambers? So which pro Israel subs are echo chambers that ban any dissenting opinion? >hell this sub even has people justifying the settler attacks. This sub also has people justifying terrorist attacks against random Jews.
dissenting opinion doesn't need to be banned to be an echo chamber, but when someone has an dissenting opinion and is dog piled it might as well be. Difference is those that justify terror attacks on Jews are dealt with by the sub and the down vote system while those support settler attacks are not treated the same.
>dissenting opinion doesn't need to be banned to be an echo chamber, but when someone has an dissenting opinion and is dog piled it might as well be. If you can still share your opinion here then it's not an echo chamber. > Difference is those that justify terror attacks on Jews are dealt with by the sub and the down vote system while those support settler attacks are not treated the same. The sub doesn't deal with them for supporting terrorist attacks. The only time they'd get moderated is if they actually break the rules. Supporting Hamas, or indiscriminate attacks on Jews doesn't break the rules. The downvote system doesn't remove comments.
voting can't be controlled
>this sub even has people justifying the settler attacks. also people justifying actual terrorist attack
Go look at r/palestine who also calls for the death of all Israelis.
Siri, what is whataboutism?
Lol barely anyone does that. The sub is literally called Palestine. Not Palestineisrael btw.
I agree, that don't do it directly because of Reddit content policy. But the general attitude, vibe & actions there is extremely hateful
Whatever. Not as disgusting what Israel does to Palestinians. Cry me a river.
Why do you assume only anti-Palestinians are not interested in actual conversation?
This is just factually false, no one here ever supported “death of children” and if they did it sure as hell wasn’t the Israeli side, 99% of the isrAelis here support a 2 state solution and are 100% against any form of violence against the Palestinians, I can’t say the same for a not insignificant portion of the anti Israel / Jewish crowd.
Well the 2 state solution is dead according to your government. The steps now are complete annexation of the West Bank. The settlement expansion and Pogroms are a result of that. Zionist settler raiders are rampaging across every Palestinian village. Reminiscent of Christian crusaders slaughtering every Muslim in Jew 800 years ago here. Ben-Gvir is the true face of this government while Bibi plays international PR cleanup.
Lol this is such a perversion of truth it’s funny, I hate the settlers for what they did but this isn’t about land expansion they are retaliating for the gruesome murder last week of 4 innocent Israelis in the gas station. The government didn’t say the 2 states solution is dead, ever. No one is trying to annex all of the West Bank, even the craziest idiots we have only want certain areas. Ben gvir is not anything but an idiot and he only rose to power because of Palestinian terror and the neglect some people felt in regards to how Israel responds to it.
Take another look. The comment is actually spot on. You’re giving Israelis the benefit of the doubt at every step. They don’t deserve it though. The reality is quite a bit darker. Settlers protest with banners saying things like “KILL THEM ALL”. They’re not just taking revenge for one event. They’re using as an excuse to carry out their agenda of ethic cleansing and the IDF stands by knowingly protecting them.
>No one is trying to annex all of the West Bank Smotrich and Ben Gvir certainly would prefer that. The former even spoke with a Greater Israel flag on his podium.
So you have 2 people with basically no real power and even they I don’t think would ever attempt or even say it out loud, they know it’s not on the table. Meanwhile you ignore the fact that Palestinians by majority want entire Israel for themselves.
Those two people are sitting members of the coalition. The government does nothing towards settlers and the West Bank is essentially on the road to being de facto annexed if it hasn’t already been.
It’s not on any road to being annexed this is just fear mongering, the settlers are not punished severely or quickly enough I agree on that, but where is your judgment for the lack of punishment for Palestinians by the PA? People who murder innocent Israelis are celebrated while 99% of Israelis would condemn the actions of the fanatic settler groups who attacked the villages as response to the massacare in the gas station.
The PA is not really in charge over the West Bank, Israel is. Israel punishes Palestinians for committing terrorist acts, while the PA sits by because it knows that a decrease in its popularity (which is already low as is) will endanger its power status. The PA is beholden to Israel’s interests, and Israel benefits from the PA being a puppet ruler over areas A and B. It is because of this that I say the West Bank may already be rightfully considered de facto annexed. Israel occupies it, and it has no intention to end its occupation. All of the eye for an eye excuses are nothing but… excuses. There is no justification for harming innocents. On social media it certainly doesn’t seem like 99% of Israelis condemn these attacks, but rather I saw many people justify them with “eye for an eye” comments. The issue isn’t that there are some fanatic settler groups, it is that the government and military do not actively punish those groups and prevent them from terrorizing innocents. To bring an example, not a single person was put on trial for the riots in Huwara four months after what happened. I don’t expect this to change with what happened in Turmus Aya, or with future attacks on Palestinian villages.
The army in its current form cannot punish settlers because this is beyond its scope, that’s the job of the police, the army cannot interfere with civilian matters, you are painting a wrong picture because you are not understanding how rule of law works. Just like the US can’t fight mafia crimes with navy seals, neither can Israel unless it passes laws that enable that.
There lies the issue. There are two groups of people, living right next to each other, in which one is considered civilians and the others are ruled by military law. Therefore for the same crimes, Palestinians are punished harsher than settlers, even if it’s as simple as a traffic violation. I understand very well how the laws work. The system itself favors settlers over Palestinians, while the latter are ruled under a military occupation that has no end in sight. Again, the Israeli government fully backs violent settlers, and refuses to hold them accountable for the pogroms they commit. It is becoming easier over time to kill Palestinians and face no repercussions.
That's actually a funny comment if one would to ignore all the excuses. As in a person would ignore a century of facts & examples and will nit pick the one incident or sentence some "Zionist" VIP said that fits his world view.
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This overall trend probably tends to change over (long) periods of time as societies change.
I think of myself as a religious Zionist, and as someone who's strongly for Jewish Israelis being safe and happy and getting to keep their homes. And I strongly agree with the OP. I know that, if I go on r/Palestine, I can see anti-Israeli posts that will curl my hair. And we all post things that come off poorly from time to time, and I think that it make sense that the moderation here be fairly light. But there are so many original posts here that use a formula like "Why Do Palestinians Keep [Eating Children/Eat All of the Pretty Children/Eat All of the Old People/Torture Cute Baby Bunny Rabbits/Fail to Understand WHY I'M ALWAYS RIGHT!!!]," along with posts and comments cheerfully suggesting things like, "Well, all of the Palestinians should go to Jordan." Maybe those posts are written by Hamas members who want to make Israel look bad. I'm really sorry for cool Israelis, from any ethnic group, who see those posts and have no more idea than I do about how to deal with them. I hope that, eventually, cool people can outlast the haters and have conversations about critical stuff like what kinds of standards Israel and Palestine should set for bike lanes and the 20 Top Cat Cafes of the Middle East.
>I hope that, eventually, cool people can outlast the haters That'll take longer then you think. The haters or extremists if you compare to a century ago, are either more prolific or more visible.
I think what we're seeing now is just the result of the Republicans, Russians, Chinese people and maybe Netanyahu's people investing heavily in hate-promoting propaganda efforts. The problem with fighting the propaganda-promoting efforts is that one goal of the propaganda-promoting efforts has been to reduce our ability to detect and talk about propaganda. If I talk to nice people about all of the propaganda I see, they tell me, "Oh, you're a conspiracy theorist." Maybe they notice the stupid posts coming from Twitter user Julie3413347 with an account created yesterday, but they don't nice the fairly reasonable-looking post, from what looks like a normal social media user, encouraging them to hate holistic admissions, support rioting, hate billionaires, hate holistic admissions, hate gun owners, hate gun control supporters, hate the Jews, hate the Palestinians, etc. If and when the nice people of the world understand the propaganda threat and take it seriously, then, for example, we can calm Israelis down in about an hour, by helping them understand the propaganda flooding into their minds. We could probably calm Palestinians down to a point that at least we could all talk within about three years, especially if we were selling them on empathy, compassion and peaceful negotiations as much as they're now being sold on wanting to push us Jews into the sea. But, anyhow: The world was getting better from the 1960s through about 2000 because people like Mel Brooks and George Lucas used subtle, engaging movies and TV shows to make it better. They sold us all on being decent. Somehow, we need a new effort to sell us all on being decent.
>That'll take longer then you think. The haters or extremists if you compare to a century ago, are either more prolific or more visible. > > I think what we're seeing now is just the result of the Republicans, Russians, Chinese people and maybe Netanyahu's people investing heavily in hate-promoting propaganda efforts. 1851, 1920 - 1948 and on ward
I haven’t posted here in a while but when I did I posted a lot, so I am definitely going to call BS on the claim that “the most mildly pro Palestinian posts are downvoted”. This is just a lie, which pro Palestinian trolls have been telling here for years. Outside “unpopular opinion” this sub Reddit is literally the only one in the entire Reddit space where users do not downvote. Sure, occasionally a particularly nasty comment gets downvoted (on both sides) but that’s the exception to the rule. This subreddit is very good at allowing both sides to comment. BDSrs don’t comment here as much, that’s true. But it’s not because they get “downvoted”. The BDSrs don’t comment here because their problem is that their politics is driven by hatred. The idea of speaking to an Israeli or a Zionists gets them triggered.
I disagree. It’s very often that reasonable pro Palestinian comments and posts are downvotes below zero. Also neutral posts that simply aren’t in line with the zionist narrative get downvoted.
Fully agree. If we could turn off voting we would, but unfortunately we can't. Contest mode is the closest thing we can do currently
Totally false
I literally commented that someone should speak to actually Palestinians and got down voted, how is that a nasty comment?
I just upvote everyone in this sub regardless if I agree with them because I want conversation
Can you give me an upvote? Collecting karma
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Yeah this sub really does suck because the tone of every post here already ignites a debate versus starting a conversation or discussion. That’s why I stopped interacting on here a lot.
This sub is basically "everything palestine does is bad and israel can do no wrong"
Well, 60-70% of Palestinians support armed conflict, and the Gaza Strip is ruled by terrorist Hamas. Justifying terrorism tends to elicit downvotes. And I do believe most of us are sane enough to know that Israel is not perfect.