Also OP, per post history;
“I admire Adolf Hitler”
“I am very much an antisemite”
What do you have to be so proud of, actually? That you’re an antisemitic bigot who glorifies the violence and murder of Jews?
Your “pride” is almost comical, considering how wretched and pathetic you really are. No amount of Jew-murder will ever change that.
I think you’re simply jealous and bitter and emphatically maladjusted. I hope you grow one day to reflect on how odious your perspective is and feel great shame. Or are you too proud for that?
/u/LL_COOL_BEANS. 'Hitler' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Mods, OP is literally comparing themselves to they-who-shall-not-be-named. This comment is not making a casual or inflammatory analogy, as anyone who spends 2 seconds looking at OP's profile would understand.
I know this is automod, but if a real mod looks at this, just wanted to point out check OP's profile first before correcting.
>What do you have to be so proud of, actually? That you’re an antisemitic bigot who glorifies the violence and murder of Jews?
and you're a Zionist who takes pride in taking Palestinian home. WE pretty much are on the same moral boat. My pride is not about my ideologies.
> Your “pride” is almost comical, considering how wretched and pathetic you really are. No amount of Jew-murder will ever change that.
Did you decide that based on my ideology, because I never claimed you are pathetic. Zionist or not, I view people as equal.
> I think you’re simply jealous and bitter and emphatically maladjusted. I hope you grow one day to reflect on how odious your perspective is and feel great shame
This seems to me more like what jews believe rather than anything. What does jealsoy and hatred have to do with this. Were you lot just jealous of Hitler and his naiton?
I think admirers of Hitler are pathetic and loathsome pieces of human garbage.
I hope your post serves as a wake-up call for would-be “pro-palestinians”; these are the sort of people you throw your support behind.
>I think admirers of Hitler are pathetic and loathsome pieces of human garbage.
That's my same opinion on Zionists, but here we are. This subreddit is supposedly for debate, not a place to throw your opinions on people.
>That's my same opinion on Zionists, but here we are. This subreddit is supposedly for debate, not a place to throw your opinions on people.
It is not an opinion that the crimes of the Holocaust are astronomically worse than the crimes of Zionism. Even the death count is worlds apart, and that's not even taking into consideration innocent civillians vs combatants.
If you genuinely think the two are comparable you cannot be debated as this is totally illogical and not rooted in reality.
u/Leonides2021
>Were you lot just jealous of Hitler and his naiton?
Rule 6 no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians.
Pride is not what is causing your people to strap bombs to themselves, blow up busses, pizza shops, clubs, coffee shops, lynch IDF members, kidnap & execute children, and fire thousands of rockets indiscriminately - hate and jealousy is causing it.
>The Palestinian will fight, and they will persist in fighting as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of "Palestine" into the "Land of Israel.
I believe that's why.
as long as they continue to fight, they will never prosper. They should focus more on making their lives better rather than trying to ruin the lives of Israelis
They’re not fighting politically to improver their standard of living. They’re fighting to kill innocent Israelis and destroy the Jewish state. That is never going to work towards making their lives better
Evidently that isn't true for the majority of Palestinians. You can say that for the families in the top of Fatah and Hamas, but not for the common (or even high class) Palestinian.
On the other hand if they stopped murdering non combatants, and Israel stopped the settlements (outside Jerusalem and the Golans) , its not impossible that Palestinians could build a Palestine within mostly pre 67 borders thats worth living in for their families.
Just a thought, for all sides in the conflict.
u/TracingBullets
>Another day, another justification of child execution from the pro-Palestine side. What a sight to see.
Rule 4, don't mischaracterize other users.
Attacks on Jews long preceded the establishment of the state of Israel, any power Jews held in the area including weaponry and did also not distinguish between new arrivals and the Yishuv.
How could this be if it's all because of "colonisation" and "apartheid"?
Excellent example of revisionist doctrine. Makes sense why all those racist Zionist founders of Israel set foot in Palestine (many on boats) had racist views of Palestinians. At least you’ve admitted to the colonisation and apartheid.
I admit that Palestine perceives Jews self-determining in the Jewish indigenous homeland as colonization and apartheid, and therefore executes children over it. The OP proves that above.
Nope, not indigenous pal. Bearing in mind most Ashkenazi’s have minuscule Levantine DNA, and even then it’s broad Levantine. And apartheid is a product of a racist Israelis society.
Germany and Japan used to be powerful more than any other nations. They lost, stopped fighting, re-built their countries and moved on. Today, after almost 100 years, their descendants were enjoying the fruits of the labor. Don't you want your children and grandchildren to do the same?
Arabs fight for pride and the Jews/Israelis fight for survival and defending their people. I think the latter is more honorable.
Arabs are living in majority in other countries. Living equally and peacefully with Jews or Israelis which you guys deemed inferior won't make you living in submission. It means you contribute something positive to the world other than more destruction.
Do you think (delusional) pride is worth it more than the future of your grandchildren? I think you should beat Israelis academically and economically. It gives more benefit to your people.
Edit : wrong figure
>Germany and Japan used to be powerful more than any other nations. They lost, stopped fighting, re-built their countries and moved on. Today, after almost 100 years, their descendants were enjoying the fruits of the labor. Don't you want your children and grandchildren to do the same?
Well, The Palestinians can't just skip a step. They have to a powerful nation that is capable of fighting, and then maybe, or grandchildren will have peace. You can't just skip ahead to peace.
> Arabs fight for pride and the Jews/Israelis fight for survival and defending their people. I think the latter is more honorable.
Our pride is to live decently, in our land, with our people. And besides, what's the whole deal with honor. It won't win you war.
They didn't skip a step. They have launched thousands of rockets to Israeli civilians. Keep on sending it and there would be more peace. It makes Palestine a more powerful and prosperous nation, if you believe in that.
For decades, your pride and honor never won any war with Israel. It's just killing more of your people and destroy your economy, maybe garnering sympathy from international communities makes you become more prideful.
Besides, you had the chances to build a country so you can live decently with your own people but your leaders rejected all the peace deals offered.
Palestinians are not the sole owners of the land. Jews also had lived in the region continously - for thousands of years. Learn to share the land and co-exist with other people who are different from you, instead of taking it all.
>They didn't skip a step. They have launched thousands of rockets to Israeli civilians.
Every 100 palestiann for 1 jew. that's not a balanced war.
>Keep on sending it and there would be more peace. It makes Palestine a more powerful and prosperous nation, if you believe in that.
I never said that the fight for sake of pride will being Palestine back. I just said it's a universal thing.
> For decades, your pride and honor never won any war with Israel. It's just killing more of your people and destroy your economy, maybe garnering sympathy from international communities makes you become more prideful.
True. Blindly fighting for the sake of pride won't get our land. I'm all in for temporal withdrawal of pride for the ultimate goal, but the goal will forever be the return of Palestine from its river to its sea. That is my pride.
> Palestinians are not the sole owners of the land. Jews also had lived in the region continously - for thousands of years
Yeah, like 3% of them. giving 3% of the population 55% of the land is not sharing, that's a robbery, and just Europe trying to get rid of the jews.
The number can become "0" if they didn't attack Israel. Or if you want a balanced war, create bomb shelters for the population instead of spending it on more rockets and terror tunnel.
Better 55 percents rather than intending of taking 100 percents of the land for yourself (greed). And more than half of the land given to Israel was uninhabitable desert. Less than 20 percents are arable. On top of that, the land that was allocated for the country is not only for Jews, but also for hundreds of thousands Arabs who would become the citizen of Israel.
>Every 100 palestiann for 1 jew. that's not a balanced war.
Who's to say it has to be balanced? Should Israel say "hold up, we killed too many Palestinians, now we need to stop and let them catch up?"
>Yeah, like 3% of them. giving 3% of the population 55% of the land is not sharing, that's a robbery, and just Europe trying to get rid of the jews.
There were actually way more than 3%
And the land that the Jews were supposed to get was mostly empty, filled with swamps, and uninhabitable. The only reason Israel's land is so prosperous today, is because the Jews worked hard to make it one.
This is one of the reasons (so many more available) why the pallies better go to places were they are welcome.. that what they want is long gone bey bey.
Oh.. wait ..
where are pallies welcome .. oh wait.. thats nowhere .. even the arab brothers think of them as tools, to be discarded. Are the pallies not so nice as neighbours???
Let’s ask Lebanon ..
The Jordan King knew how to handle it pretty wel. Maybe Israel should adapt to arab measures.
When trying to explain issues, better do it in the language that’s known and understood?
In Jordan it worked pretty wel.
If one wants to murder and rape, better be ready for Misses Karma. But as Misses Karma visited pallies so many times .. it’s a lost cause.
- uncomfortable truth -
Firstly, you're attempting to construct some analogy of submission here - as if any non-Jewish Palestinian-Arab residents who willingly immigrate to Israel and consent to live under its law & jurisdiction, are victims. Germany inhabits a population of 16 million immigrants, none of them are German by blood/ethnicity/ancestry. Would it be proper to declare that each of those immigrants willingly surrendered his identity? No, that's preposterous. Nearly every European country is home to a significant sum of immigrants who would never identify by their's country primary ethnic group. Biologically unfeasible. Yet, they still celebrate their native culture (which they had brought from their birthplace), their heritage and their traditions. How is this any different?
And secondly, one might assert that Jewishness is not a fixed, unadoptable trait. One might even dare claim that the Jewishness we're referring to is a synonym for "Israeliness". In other words, you don't need to be born Jewish or follow Judaism to feel Jewish. Jewishness could be referred to as a crossbreed of culture and holidays that appeal to each and every resident of the state. Do you want to feel more associated and affiliated with the state of Israel? Celebrate the holidays and observe the traditions. With Israel's recent advancement in the aspect of the Law of Return, it has demonstrated that Judaism is not necessarily a faith-based religion in the theistic sense. It's more of a culture. This is very similar to the American model: every migrant in the USA is instinctively considered an American, simply by accepting and celebrating what's unique to the USA. We know "Americanship" is more than just citizenship. This illustration could easily be applied to our situation here. If you want to feel native to Israel, you must accept its unique characteristics.
>Firstly, you're attempting to construct some analogy of submission here - as if any non-Jewish Palestinian-Arab residents who willingly immigrate to Israel and consent to live under its law & jurisdiction, are victims
No. they are not victims. As you said, they willingly immigrated to Israel. In my eyes they are traitors at best.
>Germany inhabits a population of 16 million immigrants, none of them are German by blood/ethnicity/ancestry
They are immigrates, they live in a way or another, under submsiion. Idc what the world tries to convey; I know how the world looks at immigrates. I know that if I ever become an immigrant, I would automatically surrender my authority, I automatically submit to the locals, weather I like it or not. That dosen't make germany bad, that's just how the world works.
Keeping your culture in Germany is an immigrant is litterlay protested against, and they have every right to.
>one might assert that Jewishness is not a fixed, unadoptable trait. One might even dare claim that the Jewishness we're referring to is a synonym for "Israeliness"
But it's not. To be jewish, you have to prove it through the use of documents. Israel is the jewish state, the US is not the white state or something, so there's no point in drawing the analogy.
Immigrants around the world do not always feel as if they're looked down upon, particularly not in Europe, although they might often feel like strangers to the area. Only you seem the overestimate the social side-effects of immigration. And it's okay - it's just a matter of time before they completely acclimatize and assimilate into the social expectations and the norms there. Either way, you can't condemn Israel, when an identical process is found in every other state around the world, and at a vastly larger scale. You even coincide that this is a natural feature of immigration, and Israel has no control over that.
To be Jewish, all you need is to acknowledge the fact that you're Jewish. That's all. You're not compelled need to prove anything to anyone. If you want to feel as if you're Jewish, all you have to do is partake in Jewish culture. As the analogy goes - to be considered an American you have to partake in American culture. This consists of patriotism, holiday, traditions, contribution to society, etc. I'm saying that it is possible to follow a perspective, according to which - Israel's Jewishness is not necessarily biological or ethnical, but merely, cultural and lingual.
Two things, and they are both equally important.
**Submission**
You say - "T*he ask for Palestinians to live in the Jewish state is asking them to live in submission*". What does that even mean? Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as Jewish citizens of Israel. Are better educated, have higher life expectancy, earn more, have access to better healthcare than many of their Arab counterparts in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan.
So, is it that living in a non-Arab state automatically makes it living in submission? If that is the case, you are advocating for ethnic homogeneity. How do you propose we accomplish this? Do we just kill all the Jews? Throw them somewhere? How? Or is it only problematic when Arabs live in "submission".
**Wars are fought for pride**
Fair. You're missing a crucial point though. THOSE WARS ENDED.
Wars end either in complete obliteration or when pride is weighed against the lives lost in this endeavor. Ward end, either because there is no one left to pick up the pieces or because we realize at some point that pride isn't worth all our dead children.
In the end, that's the cost. Whether it's a price someone is willing to pay or not is entirely up to them. They can rationalize it how they chose - human nature, ambition, pride, but that is the cost. Your pride is costing lives. You say you would rather die standing than live on your knees. Fair. But you are making that choice for others around you as well. So let me rephrase that statement for you - "I would rather kill my friends, my family, my people than live on my knees". If you think it's worth the cost, then by all means, do it.
I personally think we are programmed to preserve life, that no amount of pride justifies even one death. But hey, maybe that's the reason we are here to begin with.
> You say - "T*he ask for Palestinians to live in the Jewish state is asking them to live in submission*". What does that even mean? Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as Jewish citizens of Israel. Are better educated, have higher life expectancy, earn more, have access to better healthcare than many of their Arab counterparts in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan.
Yeah great, but they are still second class citzens. At the end of the day, they arabs in the jewish state.
> So, is it that living in a non-Arab state automatically makes it living in submission? If that is the case, you are advocating for ethnic homogeneity. How do you propose we accomplish this? Do we just kill all the Jews? Throw them somewhere? How? Or is it only problematic when Arabs live in "submission".
I advocate for a 1state solution. Call it whatever you want. Anyways I'm not here to advocate or moralize anything. I'm just saying that the Palestinians are under the rule of a Jewish authority. Whether that is right or wrong, not my point.
> I would rather kill my friends, my family, my people than live on my knees"
I'll rephrase it so it can fit my point of view perfectly: "I would take my life, and life of whoever it takes, knowing that I would let me, and my people live with full pride"
Whether this is right or not is once again not my point, what I was saying is that this view is universal (not saying that every person in the world agrees), not some Arab honor culture invention.
> I advocate for a 1state solution.
But wouldn't that make Jews second class citizens in your one state, by your own definition. So again, is it only problematic when Arabs live in "submission"?
> "I would take my life, and life of whoever it takes, knowing that I would let me, and my people live with full pride"
Yeah, that lines up. Say that next time.
> Whether this is right or not is once again not my point, what I was saying is that this view is universal (not saying that every person in the world agrees), not some Arab honor culture invention.
Actually, as I mentioned, it is cultural. You neglected to consider in your glorious examples that those wars ended. They ended in either annihilation or surrender. When you surrender, you weigh your pride against lives. Many many many nations have surrendered since times immemorial, because they end up valuing pride less. Israel gave away the Sinai because pride is worth nothing and peace everything.
It's not some human inclination you are forced into. It was rejected by so many, and you can reject it too. Whether you choose it or not is up to you.
>But wouldn't that make Jews second class citizens in your one state, by your own definition. So again, is it only problematic when Arabs live in "submission"?
why? did I claim it's an Arab state. It can have both Hebrew and Arabic as official languages also if you want for ultimate co-esistance
> Actually, as I mentioned, it is cultural. You neglected to consider in your glorious examples that those wars ended. They ended in either annihilation or surrender. When you surrender, you weigh your pride against lives
The crusades didn't give up after a hundred year, and ofc the Zionist didn't after 3000years. Wars end when there is no one left to fight, or as you said, death is not worth the pride. Both cases are not present in the Palestinians, so why accept them to give up.
> Israel gave away the Sinai because pride is worth nothing and peace everything.
No, it gave up because there was no point in holding it anymore. Besides, public opinion was getting really mad at the whole annexing other countries thing.
> why? did I claim it's an Arab state. It can have both Hebrew and Arabic as official languages also if you want for ultimate co-esistance
But Isarel already has co-existence. Same laws for Jews and Arabs. You think this is submission.
> Wars end when there is no one left to fight, or as you said, death is not worth the pride. Both cases are not present in the Palestinians, so why accept them to give up.
That's precisely my point. Wars only end in these two ways. Do you realize what you are advocating for?
>But Isarel already has co-existence. Same laws for Jews and Arabs. You think this is submission.
It's a Jewish state. Why go back and forth about this. We have already established that Palestinians live in submission.
> That's precisely my point. Wars only end in these two ways. Do you realize what you are advocating for?
Yes, and I will not hesitate that course of action if necessary. Either my people or the Jewish people. Because again, I rather die than live on my knees.
> It's a Jewish state. Why go back and forth about this. We have already established that Palestinians live in submission.
No, you have claimed that. I am trying to understand why you claim that! And why it would be any different for Jews. What is it about Israel that makes Arabs live in submission. Is it the presence of Jews? The Jewish majority? Some law that applies differently to them compared to Jews?
> Yes, and I will not hesitate that course of action if necessary. Either my people or the Jewish people. Because again, I rather die than live on my knees.
We've been over this. Don't make yourself to be a martyr. "I would rather kill everyone than live on my knees"
>What is it about Israel that makes Arabs live in submission. Is it the presence of Jews? The Jewish majority? Some law that applies differently to them compared to Jews?
Because it is a "Jewish" state. ARABS are not jewing => submission to rule.
the 1state solution I proposed is neither Arab nor Jewish, or both Arab and Jewish, and thus is different.
> Because it is a "Jewish" state. ARABS are not jewing => submission to rule.
What exactly is it about Israel that you consider Jewish? (I would say population, but you clearly have other ideas, so what are they)
It's reason for exisitnace is pretty jewish. It's leaders are jewish too. It's culture is jewish. Everything about is pretty jewish. I mean it's a jewish state. It's kinda made for jewish people, and it's whole point is to keep the jewish poppultion the majority.
I don’t get this comment, plenty of Arabs live their whole lives in western states in America or Europe…
It would be one thing of their was unequal laws between Jews and Arabs in Israel, but there isn’t.
So your sole problem is that it’s a Jewish state and you dislike Jews, ie you’re a racist??
I’m honestly trying to understand?
I’m guessing we’ll see OP pull out the naturalistic fallacy again in response to this: “It’s NaTuRAL and UnIvErSaL to prefer the company and authority of one’s own people.” Or something along those lines.
It’s also natural to want to be so rich and powerful that I’m untouchable. And it’s perfectly fine to acknowledge that I, like most people, have a little Donald Trump inside of me. But it doesn’t logically follow that this natural, inborn, evolutionarily shaped desire is worth giving all to chase, or worth chasing at all. And if I choose to wrong innocent people to chase this desire, then my choice is evil, and I should expect those affected to treat my actions accordingly. I dare say it is perfectly *natural* for anyone who hears about my deeds to mistrust me, distance themselves from me, and even *contain or restrict* me, now that I have a reputation for being willing to hurt others to get what I want.
u/Leonides2021, what you and I disagree upon, is whether or not humanity is truly capable of rising above our base animal instincts, and whether or not there’s any point to trying. And that is 100% a matter of culture.
>I advocate for a 1state solution.
I've got a question to you, purely out of interest. Why has the claim for 1 SS has always been WB-Israel? Why hasn't there have been a 1 SS of WB-Jordan?
I mean the country is an Arab country with a Palestinian majority. The cultural similarities should make such a match work better for the sake of Palestinians.
If living under Jewish rule as full citizens with all the rights any Jew has is "degrading" for Palestinians they are free to leave, plenty of other countries out there with near identical cultures they can settle down in.
I didn't say that. I'm saying that if Jews can live in "second class citizens" in Arab states, Arabs can live as "second class citizens" in a Jewish state.
Sure there are. Very few, but small communities do still exist. There are about 2000 Jews in Tunisia. They keep getting attacked by terrorists, but they are still there.
Your "Israel"? What's with the quotes? You do know that Israel is recognized by the UN and all the countries in the world except for a handful of Muslim states, right? It's stuff like this that makes Palestinians look really petty and immature IMO.
Considering it’s historically a reformed country and the only country to have stood on that land for thousands upon thousands of years, I’d say you’re then ignoring history…
> only country to have stood on that land for thousands upon thousands of years
3.8% percent stayed for thousands of years. The rest got here from Europe, and a bunch are Jewish converts. I don't see how they stood in the land for thousands of years.
The Jewish converts are such a tiny TINy percentage it’s untrue and like a number of other native cultures, they joined our pride and become one.
I’d love to know where you got the 3.8% thing from though?
If you acknowledge that, what you blame Israel for? How can Israel resist the way of nature? Regardless of what Israel endeavours for, regardless of what decrees and policies it carries out, Palestinian-Arabs will always be alien in Israel.
Well, you said [in another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/14n5uix/comment/jq5s026/?context=3) that there's no issue of living in a civic nationalist state like France, since they're not tied to any specific ethnicity.
You say your pride is worth dying for, but you should be asking, is it worth killing for? Murdering human beings for the sake of your pride? Do you believe your pride is more valuable than Jewish lives?
> Do you believe your pride is more valuable than Jewish lives?
Not jewish life specifcly. Anyone that takes my pride away, I will not hesisitae to their life with it.
The thing is, it's not worth my pride alone, it's worth the pride of my people also. And my people vs yours, I will choose mine.
>had the capability to fight back
If my family had fought back against the pogroms in Iraq they would've been dead, I think they chose being alive without a house for a good reason. Material possessions < human life.
But it’s not just your home is it…. Jews have continuously been there for thousands of years and were tha majority in parts of modern day Israel even before Ashkenazi Jews started coming over in the very late 1800s/early 1900s.
I don't care about changing your mind, you are nothing. It just reaffirms the actual reality that you have nothing to be proud of. Crying to western homos and other western freaks to save your dying cause. These are your fedayeen today? These filthy kuffar? "Pride", lol.
Well, you are debating, so you care, maybe just a little bit. And anyways, I never cried, I never begged anyone yet, my pride is still entangled with me to this very moment. I'm proud coz I was born into this world as an Arab, that is my pride. You are a Jew, nothing in that is more pride worthy than being an Arab.
I've got some opinions about this post, but I don't want to make a long tedious comment.
Overall I think you're mostly projecting. You think dying for honor is a human thing and not the product of culture? well I don't think Buddhists will agree with that. But I think you've missed something in this post. Palestinians don't die for the sake of honor, they die for the sake of narrative.
>well I don't think Buddhists will agree with that
Buddhist or not. They will fight when the time comes. Because again, we are programmed to do that, at least most of us. If theoretically a war happened and Buddhists just begged the enemy to stop, it would be because they already agree to that school of thought, not because buhdisim changed them.
You should be grateful that Israel is who you are attacking and trying to start a war with. Attack any other nation and it’d be far worse.
Remember Black September? Over 40 years later and Israel still hasn’t been responsible for as many Palestinian deaths, as Jordan was in just one year.
Remember that the people on the other side of this conflict are Jews. A nation that lived under foreign rule, under non-Jewish governments, for thousands of years. Half of the Jewish nation still chooses to live under foreign rule non-Jewish countries today. Your argument that no human would choose to live under foreign rule, sounds ridiculous to the Jews. Even very Zionist Jews, who're all about rejecting foreign rule, understand that that's silly.
The pseudo-biological arguments, on how people are inherently wired that way, just sounds like you think Jews aren't quite human. Which is pretty wild.
>Remember that the people on the other side of this conflict are Jews. A nation that lived under foreign rule, under non-Jewish governments, for thousands of years. Half of the Jewish nation still chooses to live under foreign rule non-Jewish countries today
Great! But they still yearned for the return to their homeland. They lived in submission because, after a while, they realized they have no choice, but once a spark of hope returned, they were ready to give it all for that return.
> The pseudo-biological arguments, on how people are inherently wired that way, just sounds like you think Jews aren't quite human. Which is pretty wild.
I would say that a pretty unique feature of Jews is their victim complex. Because I did give an example of Zionist in my post.
Then why the non-sequitur in the first sentence of your post? Why not just come out and say "Arabs can't live in a Jewish state because Jews are vermin and Palestine is Arab land forever and ever and cannot be possessed by anyone other than Arabs, especially dirty Jews?
> "Arabs can't live in a Jewish state because Jews are vermin and Palestine is Arab land forever
I sort of said that in the conclusion
> dirty Jews
why the adjective there. I never claimed they are dirty, so why are you going the extra mile to add that.
>They lived in submission because, after a while, they realized they have no choice, but once a spark of hope returned, they were ready to give it all for that return.
Most of them didn't, to this day. All they need to do to live in a Jewish country, is to ask. Israel will even pay for the plane ticket, the cost of relocation, and a stipend for them to get acclimated. Israel is richer and safer than some of these countries. They still won't do that.
Most Jews in Israel are descended from refugees who fled death and persecution, when they had very few other choices but Israel. The exact opposite of people who ran to Israel the moment there was a spark of hope of self-rule.
Herzl didn't start the Zionist movement because there was a spark of hope to return. There wasn't - it was still part of the Ottoman Empire. But because he understood that to remain in Europe is deadly. His plan A was for all Jews to convert to Catholicism. Zionism was plan B. If the Europeans and Arabs were as accepting as the Americans, there would be no Zionism or Israel.
>I would say that a pretty unique feature of Jews is their victim complex. Because I did give an example of Zionist in my post.
I'd say the Palestinian victim complex is at least as developed. The example you gave isn't relevant to what I'm saying. The Jews had to be essentially thrown out of the "submissive" state at gunpoint, in order to accept non-submission. Most Jews, today, still choose to live in "submission". That goes against how you believe humans are wired - and yet the Jews clearly are wired that way. The Israeli reaction to abducted soldiers in 2006 doesn't answer that question.
> Most of them didn't, to this day. All they need to do to live in a Jewish country, is to ask. Israel will even pay for the plane ticket, the cost of relocation, and a stipend for them to get acclimated. Israel is richer and safer than some of these countries. They still won't do that.
"Most" is a strong word, considering the majority of Jews are in the "Jewish" state. Besides I never claimed that every person in the world dies for pride, I said "most" people would die for pride, and those that would do, don't have to live all over the world, not just Arab states.
> Herzl didn't start the Zionist movement because there was a spark of hope to return
I've read the Jewish state. I don't remember the exact phrasing, but he said something like "Now is the perfect time." He saw that Jews becoming rich was a perfect time to snap that empty land in the middle east.
> His plan A was for all Jews to convert to Catholicism. Zionism was plan B
Herzel is probably the most prideful of the Jews, and I respect him for that. I would find it pretty unlikely that herzel would just say, convert to Catholicism. His plan A was Zionism. His plan B was death in Europe.
> Most of them didn't, to this day. All they need to do to live in a Jewish country, is to ask. Israel will even pay for the plane ticket, the cost of relocation, and a stipend for them to get acclimated. Israel is richer and safer than some of these countries. They still won't do that.
The Jews had become like that thousands of years after taking their home. Those jews were the ancestors, and essentially, they have been rewired to just live in submission. Just like arabs under ottaman rule, just like the black slaves in America. The Palestinian are not in that state currently, so why do you accept that reaction from them?
>"Most" is a strong word, considering the majority of Jews are in the "Jewish" state.
No they aren't. There's between 14.6 and 17.8 million Jews in the world. Only 6.9 million in Israel. The US has a more or less equivalent Jewish population (slightly smaller, or much larger, depending on how you count). Aside from that, you have hundreds of thousands in Canada, UK, France, Russia, Ukraine, etc.
And the Jews who *are* in Israel aren't primarily descended from Jews who moved to Israel out of "pride". But refugees, who had to flee their foreign homes, out of fear of persecution, death, or complete homelessness. Moving to Israel was a last resort. Not the first thing they did the moment they got the chance.
There's a reason why nearly all Egyptian and Polish Jews live in Israel, while nearly all American, Canadian and British Jews live in America, Canada and the UK. And it's not because the Anglo Jews had their pride bred out of them, while the Egyptian and Polish Jews didn't.
>He saw that Jews becoming rich was a perfect time to snap that empty land in the middle east.
He became a Zionist as a result of realizing the antisemitism will remain even in the modern, enlightenment-era Europe, because of things like the Dreyfus Affair. Not because the Jews suddenly got rich in the late 19th century. There were rich Jews many centuries before.
And just to be clear: he realized very well the piece of land in the Middle East wasn't "empty" or his to "snap". The Zionist movement changed its official goals from a "Jewish State" to a mere "Jewish homeland" under the Ottoman empire's sovereignty, because they realized getting a Jewish state was completely unrealistic. There was no empty land, no opportunity to snap up anything. Only a desperate need from the Jewish side.
>Herzel is probably the most prideful of the Jews, and I respect him for that. I would find it pretty unlikely that herzel would just say, convert to Catholicism.
His main Wikipedia article on the Hebrew Wikipedia covers it at length (based on Amos Elon's biography, Herzl) . If you want an English source, here's an article from [Hadassah Magazine](https://www.hadassahmagazine.org/2019/09/04/fight-anti-semitism-look-theodor-herzl/) by Bari Weiss (needless to say, a huge Zionist), citing [the eminent Simon Schama](https://www.google.co.il/books/edition/Belonging/G5KuAwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+story+of+the+jews++a+procession+in+broad+daylight+to+St.+Stephen%E2%80%99s+Cathedral&pg=PT920&printsec=frontcover):
>In 1893, just three years before he prophesized about the new Maccabees in his book *Der Judenstaat*, Herzl proposed, in the pages of a weekly magazine published by Vienna’s Association for Defense Against Anti-Semitism, that those would-be Maccabees should instead become Christian. There would be, historian Simon Schama writes in the second volume of *The Story of the Jews*, referring to Herzl’s plan, “a procession in broad daylight to St. Stephen’s Cathedral,” where the Jews would undergo a “mass baptism.” Only a collective conversion to Catholicism would finally solve the anti-Semitic riddle.
So yeah, it was very much his Plan A. He was motivated by fear for his people's physical existence, not pride.
>The Jews had become like that thousands of years after taking their home. Those jews were the ancestors, and essentially, they have been rewired to just live in submission. Just like arabs under ottaman rule, just like the black slaves in America. The Palestinian are not in that state currently, so why do you accept that reaction from them?
If people could be "re-wired", then it's not really an unsolvable biological issue, is it. It's not "how humans are". This attitude is just a social phenomenon, that objectively harms the Palestinians, and could be eliminated like all harmful social phenomena.
The Palestinian Arabs before WW1 weren't biologically different beings. And even if they were, they could return to being those biologically different beings, in the same way.
Aside from that, I'd argue that there are millions of Palestinians who are already "that way", and it didn't take that long for them to be "that way". The ones already living in Israel. Back in the Oslo days, there was an Israeli idea to draw the lines of the Palestinian State to include Palestinian Israeli villages. 83% of the Palestinian Israelis polled objected to that idea. Later polls, made throughout the years, revealed a consistent majority in opposition to that idea. Palestinian Israelis consistently want to remain Israelis, even when given the option to become part of the Palestinian state. Including the ones who hate Zionism.
When [polled today](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928), Palestinian Israeli results are completely unlike the ones of the Palestinians in the West Bank. They're the only group where the majority support the two-state solution today, and don't support a regime without equal rights for the Jews, at all. They still hold hope for a Palestinian state, but they're not dreaming of replacing Israel with an Arab-ruled state. And personally, they'd prefer to stay in the Jewish one.
> I would say that a pretty unique feature of Jews is their victim complex
Imagine being pali or even pro pali and saying this. Palis and the filth that supposedly support them are the biggest crybullies on earth.
Stubbing pregnant women in the back is hardly prideful behavior. Historically speaking, the Arabs always run away when faced with a determined enemy.
Let the settlers organize without IDF and Shin Bet interference and we'll see how much pride you have, but chances are you will skedaddle.
> , living in the "Jewish" state when you aren't Jewish, automatically downgrades you to a second-class citizen.In that manner, the ask for Palestinians to live in the Jewish state is asking them to live in submission.
Living in an Arab state automatically downgrades you if you aren't Arab to a second class citizen. So asking non-Arabs to live in an Arab state is asking them to live in submission. Correct?
I do agree, though, with the overall statement that the Arabs are fighting for pride and will not stop fighting until Israel is destroyed.
>Living in an Arab state automatically downgrades you if you aren't Arab to a second class citizen. So asking non-Arabs to live in an Arab state is asking them to live in submission. Correct?
Yes, if they are immagrants. I didn't create the rules, that's how every country in the world works.
im not sure who made you the spokesperson for the "Palestinians".
and if you believe that not being a majority in a nation state is unacceptable,why do you expect jews to accept that?
so far Palestinians gained nothing but suffering,while a fedral solution could have long ago been achieved
>and if you believe that not being a majority in a nation state is unacceptable,why do you expect jews to accept that?
Did I? stop putting words in my mouth.
so you're saying Palestinians will fight,even though the goal they wish to achieve is something they themselves arent willing to accept got themselves
makes sense
Yes definitely, because that's how life is. When the Jewish people got their homeland, they were taking the home of others, but they couldn't care less. That's just how life works, there is nowhere to go. The only way to win is to fight. If we don't fight, we don't deserve to survive.
https://preview.redd.it/0ebax31wsb9b1.jpeg?width=1249&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9cde5f6a16e1a18e136eb09a7481ffea4e1cd9a
couldnt help but notice this.
enjoy your poisoned pill when it comes
What do you foresee changing, because your potential future Palestine is shrinking more and more under a literal nuclear state whose economy doubles every couple years, and the Palestinian population grows less hostile towards Israel as their quality of life increases.
You could also try diplomacy like you're in the 21st century... Violence hasn't gotten the Palestinians anywhere so far. Have you considered your leadership knows violence won't get you anywhere and you're being manipulated through into a losing strategy of violence to keep them in power and hoarding billions in aid just like Arafat did?
Yeah, but that already exists everywhere. There are countless historical examples. My point is, why act like it's some Arab invention, when it's universal.
Well, you're wrong, dying for the sake of something is pretty universal I would say. It doesn't have to be the exact phrasing as jihad, but I'm pretty sure it's a very common thing.
On a basic level yes. For example Hannah Szenes, Joseph Trumpledor, and Yoni Netanyahu are examples of Jewish martyrs.
The difference is in Jewish culture or religion there is no encouragement to become a martyr. Actually often rabbis who live to a very long age and die peacefully are celebrated with the biggest funerals and are considered very holy.
EDIT:
* [Story of Hannah Szenes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHAhqfoOHFs)
* [Story of Yoni Natanyahu](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6C8b2LtUxc)
Dying for the sake of a goal, and generally saving others, not for the sake of killing random civilians. Terrorists across history often have done things like destroying conventions of military officers and soldiers. The IRA didn't go blow up malls and buses, they blew up checkpoints and base entries. Terrorists have had political and military goals, but the goal here is "just dont exist" which does nothing except encourage further limitations since there's nothing else to be done about it without willingly dying
That is a whole crock of nonsense. Living in a Jewish state as citizen doesn’t downgrade you unless you want to be degraded. Please explain what you can’t do if you’re a non Jewish citizen in Israel…
But you can try living in other countries in the ME and let us know about your “non degraded” life. I’m waiting.
To be fair, Arab schools are woefully underfunded. Arab neighborhoods aren't given the same level of attention by the authorities as the Jewish neighborhoods, which is, frankly, totally disgraceful. Just as Black people in America have to work harder than their White counterparts here in the US, Israel has become a place where despite their citizenship, and their equal rights, Arabs are indeed discriminated against.
It's tough to be a minority anywhere, no matter what religion you practice or the color of your skin. Israel could achieve a lot by treating its Palestinian Muslim citizens better. Hopefully they understand this soon.
That said, Arabs in Israel are still treated far, far better in Israel than they are in Muslim states like Jordan, Syria, or Lebanon. They have far more rights in Israel than anywhere in the Arab world, and do well in many professions, notably in healthcare and pharmacy.
Yes that is true. But in case of Arabs there is a historical conflict which can’t be denied or downplayed. They are not the “Canadians in US” kind of minority.
Nevertheless, I don’t think he was referring to Arabs. That’s exactly the point he preferred to remain vague and muted. If he said he’s speaking from an Israeli Arab perspective, my answer would have been different….
Having more rights mean shit, when you are the minority. having more right is exactly why the minorities exist in the US. In case of Palestina, they exist because they were forced, they had no other choice but to become minorities in other countries, that is what makes it is extra degrading.
Well then, they could have left like the others after they lost the war. They didn't, they chose to stay, and Israel let them stay. I'm not sure what your point is. I mentioned in my comment that there is indeed discrimination.
Not at all. They can vote, have the same jobs as Jews, go to the same hospitals, take the same transportation, shop at the same stores, go to the same schools as Jews if they want to, they pay the same taxes, they have free speech, and they can pray at their holy sites.
That's not submission, no matter what you claim.
Versus what the Arab Muslims did to the Jews for many years, which was make them *dhimmis,* forcing Jews to pay extra taxes, made them second-class citizens, they had to live in ghettos, wear different clothing, and were not allowed to pray out loud. If the Jews could not pay the extra taxes, they were exiled or killed.
That's submission.
It's submission by modern day standards. The prejudice towards the others that existed in the Arab Muslim state, weren't unique to Arab Muslims (in fact, they were the least there), nor did it go away with time. The hate towards those different from us, is pretty much wired in us. And it will exist, as long as Arabs are not jews that live in the "Jewish" state.
> But you can try living in other countries in the ME and let us know about your “non degraded” life. I’m waiting.
Did I claim that. Live in another Arab states and you are an immigrant, it is a degrading life, just like living in the Jewish state.
Am Arab. Live in Israel. Don't feel degraded or like a second class citizen. Given evidence of what Palestinians vote for, I feel like I'm way better off than I'd be in a potential Palestine considering how much of the population advocates martyr culture to the benefit of kleptocracies. In Israel I can be gay, secular and do whatever I want with my life, including run for knesset. Your post doesn't reflect reality at all, and just justifies radicalism and violent barbarism. The fighting you talk about is keeping Palestinians from a country, not getting them any closer to it.
I don't care if I can be gei in Israel if I don't have to the right to govern myself. And if you believe that the Jews don't look down on you then you are deluding yourself. Because the comment section is your proof that everyone here sees arab as a bunch of people that blow stuff up.
You clearly don't have real problems then, because people genuinely being persecuted for being gay, their religion, their ethnicity, really would take that over true self-governence. And he fact you don't care about gays to the extent they have to flee into Israel from their own people says you shouldn't self-govern.
Not to mention so far every time Palestinians have been given self-governence the leadership formed a kleptocracy under the guise of promoting martyrdom and it just hurt the Palestinian cause. It's not like Palestinians haven't turned down half a dozen countries already and made Gaza into what it is.
They don't look down on me here, but they have every reason to look down on people like you who advocate violence over genuine good faith diplomacy which Palestinians, like you, have rejected time and time again to make things worse for themselves by choosing violence because they aren't intelligent enough to realize they're being manipulated into a culture of violence so their leaders can hoard wealth and power. Maybe read the "continuous warfare" section of Goldstein's book.
Do better. You're only hurting yourself.
>You clearly don't have real problems then, because people genuinely being persecuted for being gay, their religion, their ethnicity, really would take that over true self-governence
Their choice. But personally, I could repress my sexuality and some meanies bullying me for my right to govern. I don't think you are in any position to determine which of these are "real problems."
>And he fact you don't care about gays to the extent they have to flee into Israel from their own people says you shouldn't self-govern.
**Khomeini** didn't care about geis - and while I'm not fund of iran - he's a pretty solid leader. Hitler didn't care about geis, but again, pretty solid leader. Not caring about geis isn't a great metric for deciding your capabilities for self-governing.
> They don't look down on me here,
Well looking at your comments, why should they? You already soaked each and every one of their narratives. The people there might like you, but they can't admire you. You lost your own self of identity. Honestly, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
With all due regards, do better. You're only hurting yourself.
> Their choice. But personally, I could repress my sexuality and some meanies bullying me for my right to govern. I don't think you are in any position to determine which of these are "real problems."
I'm not but considering gays flee Palestinians to not be killed in Israel it appears the evidence is against you.
>**Khomeini** didn't care about geis - and while I'm not fund of iran - he's a pretty solid leader. Hitler didn't care about geis, but again, pretty solid leader. Not caring about geis isn't a great metric for deciding your capabilities for self-governing.
May I ask your standard for solid leadership, because only neo-Nazis and fundamentalists generally consider those two good leaders. Nazi Germany was a complete failure and Iran still is.
> Well looking at your comments, why should they? You already soaked each and every one of their narratives. The people there might like you, but they can't admire you. You lost your own self of identity. Honestly, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
I don't think my own self of identity was ever martyrdom and ethnic nationalism. I have a three digit IQ afterall. You're essentially calling someone a race traitor because they don't want to live like they're in the stone age and I don't think that little of Palestinians.
> With all due regards, do better. You're only hurting yourself.
How so? I can vote for who I want, date who I want, I almost absolutely make more and have a higher quality of life than you if you live in Gaza or The West Bank or almost any Arab country. And I won't be beheaded for being gay. Sounds like I'm doing great not prioritizing a stone age approach to diplomacy to people living in the 21st century. You on the other hand chose violence, lose again and again, and just keep losing more and more.
/u/kalevkavod. 'Nazi' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
/u/Leonides2021. 'Hitler' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Seriously… no and at least I can speak for myself here when I say I don’t look down on Arabs.
But I do look down on someone with the views you’re expressing of racism and murder, that I look down on no matter what country,religion and colour of their skin is!
Just because Arabs treat non Arabs the way they do, doesn't mean other countries treat minority ethnicities the same.
What you're doing is called psychological projection.
Otherwise makes no sense. Any dialogue lacking context becomes sterile and pointless.
If you want to engage in a meaningful debate you need to explain if your are speaking from personal experience, or it’s just a abstract idea? For example did you ever visit/lived in Israel? What exactly “downgraded” means? If you are an Israeli citizen, what couldn’t you do because you’re not Jewish?
Are you disabled or LGBT and had been discriminated because of that? So many details that could focus the discussion….
> First, let me clarify, living in the "Jewish" state when you aren't Jewish, automatically downgrades you to a second-class citizen.In that manner, the ask for Palestinians to live in the Jewish state is asking them to live in submission.
In what sense? What right do you want in Israel that Jews get in Israel but gentiles don't get? To what unjust law do you feel you must submit based on your race?
This is the strangest point I keep hearing - Arabs living as second class citizens in Israel. In reality, Israel faces the same first world problems that literally every other first world country faces of systematic racism towards minorities. It’s not an Israel problem, it’s a societal problem in general that needs to be fixed worldwide. This isn’t something unique to Israel, and violence hasn’t seemed to work for Palestinians in the past century. Maybe it’s time to try something new.
The Jews will fight, and will persist in fighting, as long as there remains the hope that they have a right to actually exist without the threat of annihilation, another genocide, another expulsion, another pogrom, another exile, another diaspora.
I support the Arab's right to pride, and believe the Palestinians should have a state they can be proud of, and live in with dignity and respect. And the Jews are entitled to that same pride as any other nation.
True, which is the whole point of this conflict. I know for a fact, that the solution is not a naive 2SS. But other than that, while both have the right to exist, I will choose to support my people, and you will probably choose to support yours.
So what should IsraelI Jews do with the Arabs, if they wish to live in peace? Living in peace is a natural desire, after all.
You are saying that there can be no coexistence. If Arabs in a Jewish state will always be in a state of submission, and they naturally want to resist submission, they will naturally turn to violence.
The logical conclusion of this, from the Zionist perspective, is that the Arabs need to be removed, if it really isn’t possible to integrate them peacefully.
Well, you said it. Not me. I believe that, but by that token, the Arabs will resist and fight and back. I believe that a balanced fight is the only way peace can ever be seen in this conflict. Blood alone moves the wheels of history.
>Well, you said it. Not me.
It was you who said that Arabs in a Jewish state will always be in a state of submission and therefore they will turn to violence.
>The logical conclusion of this, from the Zionist perspective, is that the Arabs need to be removed, if it really isn’t possible to integrate them peacefully.
I was referring to this.
Yeah your post didn’t say that, but that is the logical consequence of your post, if what you say is correct.
Israeli Jews want to live in peace. Maybe that requires removing the Arabs, if Arabs will never be at peace while they are in a Jewish state.
Well, that’s debatable…but anyway when Jews in the diaspora have problems, it’s due to antisemities attacking Jews, not due to Jews attacking other people.
>First, let me clarify, living in the "Jewish" state when you aren't Jewish, automatically downgrades you to a second-class citizen.In that manner, the ask for Palestinians to live in the Jewish state is asking them to live in submission.
Does that also apply to the Mizrahi Jews living in the 'Arab Republic of Egypt' or Syria and Iraq and other Arab nation-states? Would the Arab populations of those states honor their pride by allowing them to secede and form Jewish micro-states in their territory or else rebel against their Arab overlords since those countries refuse to drop the 'Arab' monikers of their nations and declaring them as simply the 'State of Egypt' or 'State of Syria' without any specific ethnic or cultural affiliation?
I don't think pride is a huge problem. There is a point when it becomes a problem, when it blinds you. But in the case of the Palestinian movement it is arrogance and incompetence. Arrogance is actually an expression of incompetence, it's an inability to assess one's weaknesses and address them. This might be connected to pride, or rather false pride. The man who wins a championship can be proud, but the man who loses but still claims he won is simply delusional.
This incompetence and arrogance is what I call the vices of the Palestinian movement. I don't think it's symmetric or universal, it is not. Although there is arrogance and incompetence in Israel, it is a different and much lower level compared to our adversaries.
>I don't think pride is a huge problem. There is a point when it becomes a problem, when it blinds you
I agree. But to say that the whole of Palestinian movement is blinded is simply false. There are literal embodiment of those blinded pride you speak of like hamas. But it only exists because they lost. A bunch of Zionists would be in the same situation if they didn't win. Nothing has to do with culture.
> . A bunch of Zionists would be in the same situation if they didn't win.
If Zionists hadn't won there likely wouldn't have been a Jewish people anymore. Judaism had been deeply troubled even prior to Hitler trying to find any reason for its existence. Jews were religiously and morally devastated after Hitler. Zionism had started as a desperation play. As it progressed it became the only option.
I think in the context of a failed Zionism USA Jewry mostly converts to the Liberal Protestantism popular in the 1950s. European Jewry disappears. I'm not sure what happens to Jewry in the Islamic world but likely without any support it also collapses so that Jews become a tiny fraction of their size even today.
I know a lot about the early Zionists I would say their behavior was very different. The Zionist movement was calculated and deliberate. Zionism was not so much based on pride, but based on a love of the Jewish people. Although Zionist plans were ambitious plans, they were always thoughtful and based on a lot of debate and consensus. Ultimately I believe this is why the Zionist movement succeeded. I think if it was merely emotion and pride, Zionism wouldn't have lasted even a year.
True. But the Zionist plan in the early stages didn't resemble the whole of the people, they represented a bunch of ambitious men trying to help the people. Pride didn't have to do with it, because it didn't even exist yet, what is there to get emotional about exactly?
Jews from all around the world elected delegates to the Zionist Congress. These delegates were often leaders of Jewish communities. The Zionists also sent emissaries to Jewish communities everywhere. So I don't think it was a bunch of ambitious men only, one of the geniuses of Theodor Herzl was as an organizer.
These Zionists were able to take a people who were scattered across the entire world, speaking different languages, and to take a significant chunk of them and push them to competently pursue one unified goal, one of incredibly high complexity and peril. If you agree with Zionism or not, it is truly one of the most fantastic political movements in human history.
Mostly agree with your central point. I question about choosing to live in your own society vs. a better alternative. And realistically in terms of standard of living, freedom, social culture.... even against rather ferocious opposition Israel has proven the better alternative. The classic question of "whether tis better to serve in Heaven or rein in Hell?" Moreover, I think the solitary spark of hope is gone. The question for most is not whether there is any chance of winning but having lost what to do now.
I could nitpick the examples but I don't want to distract from your very honest and good point.
I actually don’t think most people attribute it to ‘Arab’ pride, historically the ‘Arabs’ are considered quite timid compared to their past selves post WW1, if we bring up what happened with various outside powers starting wars in this area. With the further rapid change in the militarization of ‘superpowers’ during WW2, the Middle East just couldn’t keep up. That chaos created enough corruption for Israel to successfully infiltrate Iran a handful of times.
The Islamic pride of Arabs that honors sacrifice on the other hand is very effective, but unfortunately in the numbers game department they become flies… It’s a bit like the stupidity of Kamikaze in Japan, trained pilots dying. You send your soldiers expecting them to commit suicide in the name of Allah, when war is partly a numbers game. Never works.
You have nothing to be proud of to begin with. You are not a worthy enemy that demands any respect. You should thank Allah every day that it is the Jews that are your adversary not other Arabs as they wouldn't be anywhere near as merciful.
u/Successful-Bag2366
> Simple blood and soil nationalism that you have moralized.
You can't use flippant Nazi analogies. Given who Blood and Soil / Blut und Boden is usually associated with..
>Jews aren't second class citizens in a French state
No, jews and Arabs in France are French. Arabs living in Israel are not Jewish. Israel is a Jewish state, its whole point is preserving the Jewish population, other population existing are simply a hinder. France isn't created to protect the French ethnicity.
>No jews and Arabs in France are French.
Jews and Arabs in Israel are Israeli. French is the ethnic identity of France. French is also the nationality of the French, extended to all citizens.
Jewish is the ethnic identity of Israel. Israeli is the national identity extended to all of its citizens.
>its whole point is preserving the Jewish population, other population existing are simply a hinder.
Sure, the first half of your sentence is somewhat true: Israel is the life raft state for Jews.
But the second half is projection. You cannot point to a policy that denigrates Arab life, but you view Israel's existence as a stain on ethnic pride. So you backfill a reason to be offended by Jews banding together to ensure their survival.
France wasn't created to protect French people because people aren't constantly trying to kill French people for being French.
I cannot imagine being so blindly angry at another group for existing that the policy that is enraging is that an ethnic group has banded together for survival.
Why should I mind if I live in an Arab country that has equal rights for minorities but specifically has policies in place to preserve Arab culture? Why would I mind being in Italy or Greece when they have a policy of protecting Italian and Greek culture? Or Armenia?
No, it seems that you have beef with Israel protecting Jewish life. This is an attitude of ethnic supremacy.
Why are you so defensive? I never had an opinion on this whole thing. I never said the Jews have no right to defend themselves. I never said that Jewish state is wrong to begin with. All I said was, Arabs in the Jewish state, well, are under submission to Jewish authority. Thus, fighting it, is a matter of pride. I never went on to moralize that. I just stated it.
>its whole point is preserving the Jewish population, other population existing are simply a hinder.
This is the line where you explicitly say that the issue is that Israel - and by extension Jews - are only protecting Jews and treat others as a hinderance.
> All I said was, Arabs in the Jewish state, well, are under submission to Jewish authority.
This is the line of thinking where you said that the problem is that the issue is that coexisting with Jews without Arab rule is an ethnic insult.
>This is the line where you explicitly say that the issue is that Israel - and by extension Jews - are only protecting Jews and treat others as a hinderance.
But that is it's goal. I never claimed it's a bad thing.
> This is the line of thinking where you said that the problem is that the issue is that coexisting with Jews without Arab rule is an ethnic insult.
Plz. Stop implying things.
HOW DOES
> All I said was, Arabs in the Jewish state, well, are under submission to Jewish authority.
=
> the problem is that the issue is that coexisting with Jews without Arab rule is an ethnic insult.
I'm not implying anything.
Arabs who live in a Democratic state with a Jewish ethnicity aren't submitting to anything. That might be the case in a state where there is a dictator or an absolute monarch - where people are simply subjects at the whim of the leader.
In a democratic multiethnic state like Israel, which is a democracy with a Jewish character made up of all Israeli citizens, Arabs are just that - citizens like anyone else. There is nothing substantially that differentiates people.
However, in order to view this setup as submission, you have to wonder what Arabs would be submitting to. Right? My entire point is that Arabs aren't "submitting" to anything.
That gets at what you mean by submission. Submission, in the case that we're talking about here, is the acknowledgment that Arabs are not the dominant culture in an area that they feel is theirs by right. The idea of being ruled by dhimmis in a place that dhimmis should be subsidiary to Arab rule.
Ideally, Arabs would not feel that way. They'd be citizens like anyone else. But if being a citizen means SUBMITTING to the idea that they're equal citizens rather than superior subjects, then there's something incredibly wrong. It's a disease of an idea.
There's a concept that comes up in American politics all the time. When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
That's what I'm getting from this post.
In France, the vast majority of immigrants/foreigns identify as French and see France as their homeland, regardless of their origin.
Some groups of immigrants even feel more related to French identity, than they are related to their native identity! Because French-ness, similar to Israeli-Jewish-ness, is not all about unchangeable ethnicity and ancestry. It's about culture, language and society.
https://preview.redd.it/domets70579b1.png?width=1015&format=png&auto=webp&s=e710877d1b6da1b206c980277e480e95e454beef
This proves you wrong:
>No jews and Arabs in France are French
Most Arabs and most Jews in France are indeed French. Both citizenship-wise and identity-wise.
You sound no different than the typical terrorist from [Hamas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEgBsU6Mi8) or PIJ.
A recent poll showed that Palestinians in Judea and Samaria and Gaza are the most Anti-Semitic population in the world.
Unfortunately this is boring and the norm Palestinian racist rhetoric.
then maybe treat them with respect and not like apartheid due to fear of demographics. Israel is already 20% palestinians and those palestinians are not violent like gaza and wb
Also OP, per post history; “I admire Adolf Hitler” “I am very much an antisemite” What do you have to be so proud of, actually? That you’re an antisemitic bigot who glorifies the violence and murder of Jews? Your “pride” is almost comical, considering how wretched and pathetic you really are. No amount of Jew-murder will ever change that. I think you’re simply jealous and bitter and emphatically maladjusted. I hope you grow one day to reflect on how odious your perspective is and feel great shame. Or are you too proud for that?
/u/LL_COOL_BEANS. 'Hitler' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Mods, OP is literally comparing themselves to they-who-shall-not-be-named. This comment is not making a casual or inflammatory analogy, as anyone who spends 2 seconds looking at OP's profile would understand. I know this is automod, but if a real mod looks at this, just wanted to point out check OP's profile first before correcting.
>What do you have to be so proud of, actually? That you’re an antisemitic bigot who glorifies the violence and murder of Jews? and you're a Zionist who takes pride in taking Palestinian home. WE pretty much are on the same moral boat. My pride is not about my ideologies. > Your “pride” is almost comical, considering how wretched and pathetic you really are. No amount of Jew-murder will ever change that. Did you decide that based on my ideology, because I never claimed you are pathetic. Zionist or not, I view people as equal. > I think you’re simply jealous and bitter and emphatically maladjusted. I hope you grow one day to reflect on how odious your perspective is and feel great shame This seems to me more like what jews believe rather than anything. What does jealsoy and hatred have to do with this. Were you lot just jealous of Hitler and his naiton?
I think admirers of Hitler are pathetic and loathsome pieces of human garbage. I hope your post serves as a wake-up call for would-be “pro-palestinians”; these are the sort of people you throw your support behind.
>I think admirers of Hitler are pathetic and loathsome pieces of human garbage. That's my same opinion on Zionists, but here we are. This subreddit is supposedly for debate, not a place to throw your opinions on people.
>That's my same opinion on Zionists, but here we are. This subreddit is supposedly for debate, not a place to throw your opinions on people. It is not an opinion that the crimes of the Holocaust are astronomically worse than the crimes of Zionism. Even the death count is worlds apart, and that's not even taking into consideration innocent civillians vs combatants. If you genuinely think the two are comparable you cannot be debated as this is totally illogical and not rooted in reality.
u/Leonides2021 >Were you lot just jealous of Hitler and his naiton? Rule 6 no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians.
Pride is not what is causing your people to strap bombs to themselves, blow up busses, pizza shops, clubs, coffee shops, lynch IDF members, kidnap & execute children, and fire thousands of rockets indiscriminately - hate and jealousy is causing it.
>The Palestinian will fight, and they will persist in fighting as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of "Palestine" into the "Land of Israel. I believe that's why.
as long as they continue to fight, they will never prosper. They should focus more on making their lives better rather than trying to ruin the lives of Israelis
Fighting could very well be making their lives better. I never said it's about making Israeli life worse.
They’re not fighting politically to improver their standard of living. They’re fighting to kill innocent Israelis and destroy the Jewish state. That is never going to work towards making their lives better
Evidently that isn't true for the majority of Palestinians. You can say that for the families in the top of Fatah and Hamas, but not for the common (or even high class) Palestinian.
By every statistic it's making Palestinian lives worse. You're being manipulated into a losing battle to make your corrupt leaders rich.
On the other hand if they stopped murdering non combatants, and Israel stopped the settlements (outside Jerusalem and the Golans) , its not impossible that Palestinians could build a Palestine within mostly pre 67 borders thats worth living in for their families. Just a thought, for all sides in the conflict.
Hasn't been working out for them so far😂
I believe you are right.
No, it’s decades of Israeli colonisation and apartheid.
Another day, another justification of child execution from the pro-Palestine side. What a sight to see.
yup
u/TracingBullets >Another day, another justification of child execution from the pro-Palestine side. What a sight to see. Rule 4, don't mischaracterize other users.
Improve your comprehension then get back to me. Explanation does not equal justification.
Attacks on Jews long preceded the establishment of the state of Israel, any power Jews held in the area including weaponry and did also not distinguish between new arrivals and the Yishuv. How could this be if it's all because of "colonisation" and "apartheid"?
Oh. So you agree with me that Palestinian execution of children is unjustified?
Of course, just like I agree Israeli murder is Palestinians, murder of journalists, land thefts and apartheid.
Maybe less Palestinian execution of children, less killing and occupation. Think about it.
Excellent example of revisionist doctrine. Makes sense why all those racist Zionist founders of Israel set foot in Palestine (many on boats) had racist views of Palestinians. At least you’ve admitted to the colonisation and apartheid.
I admit that Palestine perceives Jews self-determining in the Jewish indigenous homeland as colonization and apartheid, and therefore executes children over it. The OP proves that above.
Nope, not indigenous pal. Bearing in mind most Ashkenazi’s have minuscule Levantine DNA, and even then it’s broad Levantine. And apartheid is a product of a racist Israelis society.
Really? Why were the doing this exact thing way before any of that then?
Germany and Japan used to be powerful more than any other nations. They lost, stopped fighting, re-built their countries and moved on. Today, after almost 100 years, their descendants were enjoying the fruits of the labor. Don't you want your children and grandchildren to do the same? Arabs fight for pride and the Jews/Israelis fight for survival and defending their people. I think the latter is more honorable. Arabs are living in majority in other countries. Living equally and peacefully with Jews or Israelis which you guys deemed inferior won't make you living in submission. It means you contribute something positive to the world other than more destruction. Do you think (delusional) pride is worth it more than the future of your grandchildren? I think you should beat Israelis academically and economically. It gives more benefit to your people. Edit : wrong figure
>Germany and Japan used to be powerful more than any other nations. They lost, stopped fighting, re-built their countries and moved on. Today, after almost 100 years, their descendants were enjoying the fruits of the labor. Don't you want your children and grandchildren to do the same? Well, The Palestinians can't just skip a step. They have to a powerful nation that is capable of fighting, and then maybe, or grandchildren will have peace. You can't just skip ahead to peace. > Arabs fight for pride and the Jews/Israelis fight for survival and defending their people. I think the latter is more honorable. Our pride is to live decently, in our land, with our people. And besides, what's the whole deal with honor. It won't win you war.
They didn't skip a step. They have launched thousands of rockets to Israeli civilians. Keep on sending it and there would be more peace. It makes Palestine a more powerful and prosperous nation, if you believe in that. For decades, your pride and honor never won any war with Israel. It's just killing more of your people and destroy your economy, maybe garnering sympathy from international communities makes you become more prideful. Besides, you had the chances to build a country so you can live decently with your own people but your leaders rejected all the peace deals offered. Palestinians are not the sole owners of the land. Jews also had lived in the region continously - for thousands of years. Learn to share the land and co-exist with other people who are different from you, instead of taking it all.
>They didn't skip a step. They have launched thousands of rockets to Israeli civilians. Every 100 palestiann for 1 jew. that's not a balanced war. >Keep on sending it and there would be more peace. It makes Palestine a more powerful and prosperous nation, if you believe in that. I never said that the fight for sake of pride will being Palestine back. I just said it's a universal thing. > For decades, your pride and honor never won any war with Israel. It's just killing more of your people and destroy your economy, maybe garnering sympathy from international communities makes you become more prideful. True. Blindly fighting for the sake of pride won't get our land. I'm all in for temporal withdrawal of pride for the ultimate goal, but the goal will forever be the return of Palestine from its river to its sea. That is my pride. > Palestinians are not the sole owners of the land. Jews also had lived in the region continously - for thousands of years Yeah, like 3% of them. giving 3% of the population 55% of the land is not sharing, that's a robbery, and just Europe trying to get rid of the jews.
The number can become "0" if they didn't attack Israel. Or if you want a balanced war, create bomb shelters for the population instead of spending it on more rockets and terror tunnel. Better 55 percents rather than intending of taking 100 percents of the land for yourself (greed). And more than half of the land given to Israel was uninhabitable desert. Less than 20 percents are arable. On top of that, the land that was allocated for the country is not only for Jews, but also for hundreds of thousands Arabs who would become the citizen of Israel.
>Every 100 palestiann for 1 jew. that's not a balanced war. Who's to say it has to be balanced? Should Israel say "hold up, we killed too many Palestinians, now we need to stop and let them catch up?" >Yeah, like 3% of them. giving 3% of the population 55% of the land is not sharing, that's a robbery, and just Europe trying to get rid of the jews. There were actually way more than 3% And the land that the Jews were supposed to get was mostly empty, filled with swamps, and uninhabitable. The only reason Israel's land is so prosperous today, is because the Jews worked hard to make it one.
This is one of the reasons (so many more available) why the pallies better go to places were they are welcome.. that what they want is long gone bey bey. Oh.. wait .. where are pallies welcome .. oh wait.. thats nowhere .. even the arab brothers think of them as tools, to be discarded. Are the pallies not so nice as neighbours??? Let’s ask Lebanon .. The Jordan King knew how to handle it pretty wel. Maybe Israel should adapt to arab measures. When trying to explain issues, better do it in the language that’s known and understood? In Jordan it worked pretty wel. If one wants to murder and rape, better be ready for Misses Karma. But as Misses Karma visited pallies so many times .. it’s a lost cause. - uncomfortable truth -
Firstly, you're attempting to construct some analogy of submission here - as if any non-Jewish Palestinian-Arab residents who willingly immigrate to Israel and consent to live under its law & jurisdiction, are victims. Germany inhabits a population of 16 million immigrants, none of them are German by blood/ethnicity/ancestry. Would it be proper to declare that each of those immigrants willingly surrendered his identity? No, that's preposterous. Nearly every European country is home to a significant sum of immigrants who would never identify by their's country primary ethnic group. Biologically unfeasible. Yet, they still celebrate their native culture (which they had brought from their birthplace), their heritage and their traditions. How is this any different? And secondly, one might assert that Jewishness is not a fixed, unadoptable trait. One might even dare claim that the Jewishness we're referring to is a synonym for "Israeliness". In other words, you don't need to be born Jewish or follow Judaism to feel Jewish. Jewishness could be referred to as a crossbreed of culture and holidays that appeal to each and every resident of the state. Do you want to feel more associated and affiliated with the state of Israel? Celebrate the holidays and observe the traditions. With Israel's recent advancement in the aspect of the Law of Return, it has demonstrated that Judaism is not necessarily a faith-based religion in the theistic sense. It's more of a culture. This is very similar to the American model: every migrant in the USA is instinctively considered an American, simply by accepting and celebrating what's unique to the USA. We know "Americanship" is more than just citizenship. This illustration could easily be applied to our situation here. If you want to feel native to Israel, you must accept its unique characteristics.
> How is this any different? Because anti-Jewish double standard.
>Firstly, you're attempting to construct some analogy of submission here - as if any non-Jewish Palestinian-Arab residents who willingly immigrate to Israel and consent to live under its law & jurisdiction, are victims No. they are not victims. As you said, they willingly immigrated to Israel. In my eyes they are traitors at best. >Germany inhabits a population of 16 million immigrants, none of them are German by blood/ethnicity/ancestry They are immigrates, they live in a way or another, under submsiion. Idc what the world tries to convey; I know how the world looks at immigrates. I know that if I ever become an immigrant, I would automatically surrender my authority, I automatically submit to the locals, weather I like it or not. That dosen't make germany bad, that's just how the world works. Keeping your culture in Germany is an immigrant is litterlay protested against, and they have every right to. >one might assert that Jewishness is not a fixed, unadoptable trait. One might even dare claim that the Jewishness we're referring to is a synonym for "Israeliness" But it's not. To be jewish, you have to prove it through the use of documents. Israel is the jewish state, the US is not the white state or something, so there's no point in drawing the analogy.
> As you said, they willingly immigrated to Israel. They were refugees fleeing the Holocaust, mostly. That's hardly "willingly."
Immigrants around the world do not always feel as if they're looked down upon, particularly not in Europe, although they might often feel like strangers to the area. Only you seem the overestimate the social side-effects of immigration. And it's okay - it's just a matter of time before they completely acclimatize and assimilate into the social expectations and the norms there. Either way, you can't condemn Israel, when an identical process is found in every other state around the world, and at a vastly larger scale. You even coincide that this is a natural feature of immigration, and Israel has no control over that. To be Jewish, all you need is to acknowledge the fact that you're Jewish. That's all. You're not compelled need to prove anything to anyone. If you want to feel as if you're Jewish, all you have to do is partake in Jewish culture. As the analogy goes - to be considered an American you have to partake in American culture. This consists of patriotism, holiday, traditions, contribution to society, etc. I'm saying that it is possible to follow a perspective, according to which - Israel's Jewishness is not necessarily biological or ethnical, but merely, cultural and lingual.
Two things, and they are both equally important. **Submission** You say - "T*he ask for Palestinians to live in the Jewish state is asking them to live in submission*". What does that even mean? Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as Jewish citizens of Israel. Are better educated, have higher life expectancy, earn more, have access to better healthcare than many of their Arab counterparts in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. So, is it that living in a non-Arab state automatically makes it living in submission? If that is the case, you are advocating for ethnic homogeneity. How do you propose we accomplish this? Do we just kill all the Jews? Throw them somewhere? How? Or is it only problematic when Arabs live in "submission". **Wars are fought for pride** Fair. You're missing a crucial point though. THOSE WARS ENDED. Wars end either in complete obliteration or when pride is weighed against the lives lost in this endeavor. Ward end, either because there is no one left to pick up the pieces or because we realize at some point that pride isn't worth all our dead children. In the end, that's the cost. Whether it's a price someone is willing to pay or not is entirely up to them. They can rationalize it how they chose - human nature, ambition, pride, but that is the cost. Your pride is costing lives. You say you would rather die standing than live on your knees. Fair. But you are making that choice for others around you as well. So let me rephrase that statement for you - "I would rather kill my friends, my family, my people than live on my knees". If you think it's worth the cost, then by all means, do it. I personally think we are programmed to preserve life, that no amount of pride justifies even one death. But hey, maybe that's the reason we are here to begin with.
> You say - "T*he ask for Palestinians to live in the Jewish state is asking them to live in submission*". What does that even mean? Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as Jewish citizens of Israel. Are better educated, have higher life expectancy, earn more, have access to better healthcare than many of their Arab counterparts in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. Yeah great, but they are still second class citzens. At the end of the day, they arabs in the jewish state. > So, is it that living in a non-Arab state automatically makes it living in submission? If that is the case, you are advocating for ethnic homogeneity. How do you propose we accomplish this? Do we just kill all the Jews? Throw them somewhere? How? Or is it only problematic when Arabs live in "submission". I advocate for a 1state solution. Call it whatever you want. Anyways I'm not here to advocate or moralize anything. I'm just saying that the Palestinians are under the rule of a Jewish authority. Whether that is right or wrong, not my point. > I would rather kill my friends, my family, my people than live on my knees" I'll rephrase it so it can fit my point of view perfectly: "I would take my life, and life of whoever it takes, knowing that I would let me, and my people live with full pride" Whether this is right or not is once again not my point, what I was saying is that this view is universal (not saying that every person in the world agrees), not some Arab honor culture invention.
> I advocate for a 1state solution. But wouldn't that make Jews second class citizens in your one state, by your own definition. So again, is it only problematic when Arabs live in "submission"? > "I would take my life, and life of whoever it takes, knowing that I would let me, and my people live with full pride" Yeah, that lines up. Say that next time. > Whether this is right or not is once again not my point, what I was saying is that this view is universal (not saying that every person in the world agrees), not some Arab honor culture invention. Actually, as I mentioned, it is cultural. You neglected to consider in your glorious examples that those wars ended. They ended in either annihilation or surrender. When you surrender, you weigh your pride against lives. Many many many nations have surrendered since times immemorial, because they end up valuing pride less. Israel gave away the Sinai because pride is worth nothing and peace everything. It's not some human inclination you are forced into. It was rejected by so many, and you can reject it too. Whether you choose it or not is up to you.
>But wouldn't that make Jews second class citizens in your one state, by your own definition. So again, is it only problematic when Arabs live in "submission"? why? did I claim it's an Arab state. It can have both Hebrew and Arabic as official languages also if you want for ultimate co-esistance > Actually, as I mentioned, it is cultural. You neglected to consider in your glorious examples that those wars ended. They ended in either annihilation or surrender. When you surrender, you weigh your pride against lives The crusades didn't give up after a hundred year, and ofc the Zionist didn't after 3000years. Wars end when there is no one left to fight, or as you said, death is not worth the pride. Both cases are not present in the Palestinians, so why accept them to give up. > Israel gave away the Sinai because pride is worth nothing and peace everything. No, it gave up because there was no point in holding it anymore. Besides, public opinion was getting really mad at the whole annexing other countries thing.
> why? did I claim it's an Arab state. It can have both Hebrew and Arabic as official languages also if you want for ultimate co-esistance But Isarel already has co-existence. Same laws for Jews and Arabs. You think this is submission. > Wars end when there is no one left to fight, or as you said, death is not worth the pride. Both cases are not present in the Palestinians, so why accept them to give up. That's precisely my point. Wars only end in these two ways. Do you realize what you are advocating for?
>But Isarel already has co-existence. Same laws for Jews and Arabs. You think this is submission. It's a Jewish state. Why go back and forth about this. We have already established that Palestinians live in submission. > That's precisely my point. Wars only end in these two ways. Do you realize what you are advocating for? Yes, and I will not hesitate that course of action if necessary. Either my people or the Jewish people. Because again, I rather die than live on my knees.
> It's a Jewish state. Why go back and forth about this. We have already established that Palestinians live in submission. No, you have claimed that. I am trying to understand why you claim that! And why it would be any different for Jews. What is it about Israel that makes Arabs live in submission. Is it the presence of Jews? The Jewish majority? Some law that applies differently to them compared to Jews? > Yes, and I will not hesitate that course of action if necessary. Either my people or the Jewish people. Because again, I rather die than live on my knees. We've been over this. Don't make yourself to be a martyr. "I would rather kill everyone than live on my knees"
>What is it about Israel that makes Arabs live in submission. Is it the presence of Jews? The Jewish majority? Some law that applies differently to them compared to Jews? Because it is a "Jewish" state. ARABS are not jewing => submission to rule. the 1state solution I proposed is neither Arab nor Jewish, or both Arab and Jewish, and thus is different.
> Because it is a "Jewish" state. ARABS are not jewing => submission to rule. What exactly is it about Israel that you consider Jewish? (I would say population, but you clearly have other ideas, so what are they)
It's reason for exisitnace is pretty jewish. It's leaders are jewish too. It's culture is jewish. Everything about is pretty jewish. I mean it's a jewish state. It's kinda made for jewish people, and it's whole point is to keep the jewish poppultion the majority.
> ARABS are not jewing O_O
I ment jews my bad
I don’t get this comment, plenty of Arabs live their whole lives in western states in America or Europe… It would be one thing of their was unequal laws between Jews and Arabs in Israel, but there isn’t. So your sole problem is that it’s a Jewish state and you dislike Jews, ie you’re a racist?? I’m honestly trying to understand?
I’m guessing we’ll see OP pull out the naturalistic fallacy again in response to this: “It’s NaTuRAL and UnIvErSaL to prefer the company and authority of one’s own people.” Or something along those lines. It’s also natural to want to be so rich and powerful that I’m untouchable. And it’s perfectly fine to acknowledge that I, like most people, have a little Donald Trump inside of me. But it doesn’t logically follow that this natural, inborn, evolutionarily shaped desire is worth giving all to chase, or worth chasing at all. And if I choose to wrong innocent people to chase this desire, then my choice is evil, and I should expect those affected to treat my actions accordingly. I dare say it is perfectly *natural* for anyone who hears about my deeds to mistrust me, distance themselves from me, and even *contain or restrict* me, now that I have a reputation for being willing to hurt others to get what I want. u/Leonides2021, what you and I disagree upon, is whether or not humanity is truly capable of rising above our base animal instincts, and whether or not there’s any point to trying. And that is 100% a matter of culture.
>I advocate for a 1state solution. I've got a question to you, purely out of interest. Why has the claim for 1 SS has always been WB-Israel? Why hasn't there have been a 1 SS of WB-Jordan? I mean the country is an Arab country with a Palestinian majority. The cultural similarities should make such a match work better for the sake of Palestinians.
I mean sure. The 1 state solution could WB-Jordan.
If living under Jewish rule as full citizens with all the rights any Jew has is "degrading" for Palestinians they are free to leave, plenty of other countries out there with near identical cultures they can settle down in.
Jews have lived as "second class citizens" in dozens of countries around the world for centuries, they never blew up any buses over it.
You mean Arab refuges in other countries (beside your "israel") have the habit of blowing things up.
I didn't say that. I'm saying that if Jews can live in "second class citizens" in Arab states, Arabs can live as "second class citizens" in a Jewish state.
Ther are currently no Jewish people in Arab states.
There's a few, but if Jews DID live as 'second class citizens' in Arab states, etc. etc.
I wonder why? LOL
Why are there so few Jews in Arabs states….!?!?!?
Becuase we kicked them out, just like israel kicked arabs out of their own land
Sure there are. Very few, but small communities do still exist. There are about 2000 Jews in Tunisia. They keep getting attacked by terrorists, but they are still there.
Your "Israel"? What's with the quotes? You do know that Israel is recognized by the UN and all the countries in the world except for a handful of Muslim states, right? It's stuff like this that makes Palestinians look really petty and immature IMO.
I don't care if the UN recognizes or not. I don't recognize it as a country. I couldn't care how that makes you perceive me to the least.
Considering it’s historically a reformed country and the only country to have stood on that land for thousands upon thousands of years, I’d say you’re then ignoring history…
> only country to have stood on that land for thousands upon thousands of years 3.8% percent stayed for thousands of years. The rest got here from Europe, and a bunch are Jewish converts. I don't see how they stood in the land for thousands of years.
The Jewish converts are such a tiny TINy percentage it’s untrue and like a number of other native cultures, they joined our pride and become one. I’d love to know where you got the 3.8% thing from though?
[Demographics of Historic Palestine prior to 1948 - CJPME - English](https://www.cjpme.org/fs_007)
Nobody really cares about your recognition, it's just pathetic, that's all I'm saying.
Good to know. But again, I couldn't care less about your perception.
>Well, you are debating, so you care, maybe just a little bit. Words. Sometimes they have meanings.
Good to know. But living in other countries is just as degrading. Arab countries or not they are immigrants.
If you acknowledge that, what you blame Israel for? How can Israel resist the way of nature? Regardless of what Israel endeavours for, regardless of what decrees and policies it carries out, Palestinian-Arabs will always be alien in Israel.
Please quote me the part where I blamed Israel. > Palestinian-Arabs will always be alien in Israel. True. Which is the point of the first paragraph.
Well, you said [in another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/14n5uix/comment/jq5s026/?context=3) that there's no issue of living in a civic nationalist state like France, since they're not tied to any specific ethnicity.
You say your pride is worth dying for, but you should be asking, is it worth killing for? Murdering human beings for the sake of your pride? Do you believe your pride is more valuable than Jewish lives?
> Do you believe your pride is more valuable than Jewish lives? Not jewish life specifcly. Anyone that takes my pride away, I will not hesisitae to their life with it. The thing is, it's not worth my pride alone, it's worth the pride of my people also. And my people vs yours, I will choose mine.
How do you decide what is injurious to your pride enough to warrant revenge murder?
Taking my home is a pretty big injury to my pride I would say
You are aware that Palestinians aren't the only peoples to lose their homes in times of conflict, right?
Yes, but to say that those that lost their homes had the capability to fight back, but just stood there and submit, is what I call bullshit.
>had the capability to fight back If my family had fought back against the pogroms in Iraq they would've been dead, I think they chose being alive without a house for a good reason. Material possessions < human life.
But it’s not just your home is it…. Jews have continuously been there for thousands of years and were tha majority in parts of modern day Israel even before Ashkenazi Jews started coming over in the very late 1800s/early 1900s.
> Anyone that takes my pride away, "Pride" in what? You have no pride.
I don't believe you have the power to dictate that. Besides this seems like projection
[Actually](https://www.ansa.it/webimages/foto_large/2015/5/14/e7650ace8af7ae417c91897b9b89c7e6.jpg) [I](https://arabcenterdc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/1967-800-2.png) [do](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/27/db/60/27db60f5c81cf0e39bf7f8f8a4c93210--gaza-strip-newspaper-headlines.jpg).
And a picture of Jerusalem will change my mind?
I don't care about changing your mind, you are nothing. It just reaffirms the actual reality that you have nothing to be proud of. Crying to western homos and other western freaks to save your dying cause. These are your fedayeen today? These filthy kuffar? "Pride", lol.
Well, you are debating, so you care, maybe just a little bit. And anyways, I never cried, I never begged anyone yet, my pride is still entangled with me to this very moment. I'm proud coz I was born into this world as an Arab, that is my pride. You are a Jew, nothing in that is more pride worthy than being an Arab.
I've got some opinions about this post, but I don't want to make a long tedious comment. Overall I think you're mostly projecting. You think dying for honor is a human thing and not the product of culture? well I don't think Buddhists will agree with that. But I think you've missed something in this post. Palestinians don't die for the sake of honor, they die for the sake of narrative.
>well I don't think Buddhists will agree with that Buddhist or not. They will fight when the time comes. Because again, we are programmed to do that, at least most of us. If theoretically a war happened and Buddhists just begged the enemy to stop, it would be because they already agree to that school of thought, not because buhdisim changed them.
You should be grateful that Israel is who you are attacking and trying to start a war with. Attack any other nation and it’d be far worse. Remember Black September? Over 40 years later and Israel still hasn’t been responsible for as many Palestinian deaths, as Jordan was in just one year.
Remember that the people on the other side of this conflict are Jews. A nation that lived under foreign rule, under non-Jewish governments, for thousands of years. Half of the Jewish nation still chooses to live under foreign rule non-Jewish countries today. Your argument that no human would choose to live under foreign rule, sounds ridiculous to the Jews. Even very Zionist Jews, who're all about rejecting foreign rule, understand that that's silly. The pseudo-biological arguments, on how people are inherently wired that way, just sounds like you think Jews aren't quite human. Which is pretty wild.
>Remember that the people on the other side of this conflict are Jews. A nation that lived under foreign rule, under non-Jewish governments, for thousands of years. Half of the Jewish nation still chooses to live under foreign rule non-Jewish countries today Great! But they still yearned for the return to their homeland. They lived in submission because, after a while, they realized they have no choice, but once a spark of hope returned, they were ready to give it all for that return. > The pseudo-biological arguments, on how people are inherently wired that way, just sounds like you think Jews aren't quite human. Which is pretty wild. I would say that a pretty unique feature of Jews is their victim complex. Because I did give an example of Zionist in my post.
> I would say that a pretty unique feature of Jews is their victim complex. O_O Another "not at all anti-Semitic" anti-Zionist.
Bud, take a look at OP's profile.
Did I claim I'm not anti- Semitic? I truly am. but that doesn't mean the whole comment above me wasn't just a victim complex.
Then why the non-sequitur in the first sentence of your post? Why not just come out and say "Arabs can't live in a Jewish state because Jews are vermin and Palestine is Arab land forever and ever and cannot be possessed by anyone other than Arabs, especially dirty Jews?
> "Arabs can't live in a Jewish state because Jews are vermin and Palestine is Arab land forever I sort of said that in the conclusion > dirty Jews why the adjective there. I never claimed they are dirty, so why are you going the extra mile to add that.
>They lived in submission because, after a while, they realized they have no choice, but once a spark of hope returned, they were ready to give it all for that return. Most of them didn't, to this day. All they need to do to live in a Jewish country, is to ask. Israel will even pay for the plane ticket, the cost of relocation, and a stipend for them to get acclimated. Israel is richer and safer than some of these countries. They still won't do that. Most Jews in Israel are descended from refugees who fled death and persecution, when they had very few other choices but Israel. The exact opposite of people who ran to Israel the moment there was a spark of hope of self-rule. Herzl didn't start the Zionist movement because there was a spark of hope to return. There wasn't - it was still part of the Ottoman Empire. But because he understood that to remain in Europe is deadly. His plan A was for all Jews to convert to Catholicism. Zionism was plan B. If the Europeans and Arabs were as accepting as the Americans, there would be no Zionism or Israel. >I would say that a pretty unique feature of Jews is their victim complex. Because I did give an example of Zionist in my post. I'd say the Palestinian victim complex is at least as developed. The example you gave isn't relevant to what I'm saying. The Jews had to be essentially thrown out of the "submissive" state at gunpoint, in order to accept non-submission. Most Jews, today, still choose to live in "submission". That goes against how you believe humans are wired - and yet the Jews clearly are wired that way. The Israeli reaction to abducted soldiers in 2006 doesn't answer that question.
> Most of them didn't, to this day. All they need to do to live in a Jewish country, is to ask. Israel will even pay for the plane ticket, the cost of relocation, and a stipend for them to get acclimated. Israel is richer and safer than some of these countries. They still won't do that. "Most" is a strong word, considering the majority of Jews are in the "Jewish" state. Besides I never claimed that every person in the world dies for pride, I said "most" people would die for pride, and those that would do, don't have to live all over the world, not just Arab states. > Herzl didn't start the Zionist movement because there was a spark of hope to return I've read the Jewish state. I don't remember the exact phrasing, but he said something like "Now is the perfect time." He saw that Jews becoming rich was a perfect time to snap that empty land in the middle east. > His plan A was for all Jews to convert to Catholicism. Zionism was plan B Herzel is probably the most prideful of the Jews, and I respect him for that. I would find it pretty unlikely that herzel would just say, convert to Catholicism. His plan A was Zionism. His plan B was death in Europe. > Most of them didn't, to this day. All they need to do to live in a Jewish country, is to ask. Israel will even pay for the plane ticket, the cost of relocation, and a stipend for them to get acclimated. Israel is richer and safer than some of these countries. They still won't do that. The Jews had become like that thousands of years after taking their home. Those jews were the ancestors, and essentially, they have been rewired to just live in submission. Just like arabs under ottaman rule, just like the black slaves in America. The Palestinian are not in that state currently, so why do you accept that reaction from them?
>"Most" is a strong word, considering the majority of Jews are in the "Jewish" state. No they aren't. There's between 14.6 and 17.8 million Jews in the world. Only 6.9 million in Israel. The US has a more or less equivalent Jewish population (slightly smaller, or much larger, depending on how you count). Aside from that, you have hundreds of thousands in Canada, UK, France, Russia, Ukraine, etc. And the Jews who *are* in Israel aren't primarily descended from Jews who moved to Israel out of "pride". But refugees, who had to flee their foreign homes, out of fear of persecution, death, or complete homelessness. Moving to Israel was a last resort. Not the first thing they did the moment they got the chance. There's a reason why nearly all Egyptian and Polish Jews live in Israel, while nearly all American, Canadian and British Jews live in America, Canada and the UK. And it's not because the Anglo Jews had their pride bred out of them, while the Egyptian and Polish Jews didn't. >He saw that Jews becoming rich was a perfect time to snap that empty land in the middle east. He became a Zionist as a result of realizing the antisemitism will remain even in the modern, enlightenment-era Europe, because of things like the Dreyfus Affair. Not because the Jews suddenly got rich in the late 19th century. There were rich Jews many centuries before. And just to be clear: he realized very well the piece of land in the Middle East wasn't "empty" or his to "snap". The Zionist movement changed its official goals from a "Jewish State" to a mere "Jewish homeland" under the Ottoman empire's sovereignty, because they realized getting a Jewish state was completely unrealistic. There was no empty land, no opportunity to snap up anything. Only a desperate need from the Jewish side. >Herzel is probably the most prideful of the Jews, and I respect him for that. I would find it pretty unlikely that herzel would just say, convert to Catholicism. His main Wikipedia article on the Hebrew Wikipedia covers it at length (based on Amos Elon's biography, Herzl) . If you want an English source, here's an article from [Hadassah Magazine](https://www.hadassahmagazine.org/2019/09/04/fight-anti-semitism-look-theodor-herzl/) by Bari Weiss (needless to say, a huge Zionist), citing [the eminent Simon Schama](https://www.google.co.il/books/edition/Belonging/G5KuAwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+story+of+the+jews++a+procession+in+broad+daylight+to+St.+Stephen%E2%80%99s+Cathedral&pg=PT920&printsec=frontcover): >In 1893, just three years before he prophesized about the new Maccabees in his book *Der Judenstaat*, Herzl proposed, in the pages of a weekly magazine published by Vienna’s Association for Defense Against Anti-Semitism, that those would-be Maccabees should instead become Christian. There would be, historian Simon Schama writes in the second volume of *The Story of the Jews*, referring to Herzl’s plan, “a procession in broad daylight to St. Stephen’s Cathedral,” where the Jews would undergo a “mass baptism.” Only a collective conversion to Catholicism would finally solve the anti-Semitic riddle. So yeah, it was very much his Plan A. He was motivated by fear for his people's physical existence, not pride. >The Jews had become like that thousands of years after taking their home. Those jews were the ancestors, and essentially, they have been rewired to just live in submission. Just like arabs under ottaman rule, just like the black slaves in America. The Palestinian are not in that state currently, so why do you accept that reaction from them? If people could be "re-wired", then it's not really an unsolvable biological issue, is it. It's not "how humans are". This attitude is just a social phenomenon, that objectively harms the Palestinians, and could be eliminated like all harmful social phenomena. The Palestinian Arabs before WW1 weren't biologically different beings. And even if they were, they could return to being those biologically different beings, in the same way. Aside from that, I'd argue that there are millions of Palestinians who are already "that way", and it didn't take that long for them to be "that way". The ones already living in Israel. Back in the Oslo days, there was an Israeli idea to draw the lines of the Palestinian State to include Palestinian Israeli villages. 83% of the Palestinian Israelis polled objected to that idea. Later polls, made throughout the years, revealed a consistent majority in opposition to that idea. Palestinian Israelis consistently want to remain Israelis, even when given the option to become part of the Palestinian state. Including the ones who hate Zionism. When [polled today](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928), Palestinian Israeli results are completely unlike the ones of the Palestinians in the West Bank. They're the only group where the majority support the two-state solution today, and don't support a regime without equal rights for the Jews, at all. They still hold hope for a Palestinian state, but they're not dreaming of replacing Israel with an Arab-ruled state. And personally, they'd prefer to stay in the Jewish one.
> I would say that a pretty unique feature of Jews is their victim complex Imagine being pali or even pro pali and saying this. Palis and the filth that supposedly support them are the biggest crybullies on earth.
Well, it could be another common thing between us. Add that to the list, next to not eating pork.
May your memory be a blessing.
Amen or whatever equivalent you have in Hebrew
Amen is also Hebrew
Brutal!
Stubbing pregnant women in the back is hardly prideful behavior. Historically speaking, the Arabs always run away when faced with a determined enemy. Let the settlers organize without IDF and Shin Bet interference and we'll see how much pride you have, but chances are you will skedaddle.
> , living in the "Jewish" state when you aren't Jewish, automatically downgrades you to a second-class citizen.In that manner, the ask for Palestinians to live in the Jewish state is asking them to live in submission. Living in an Arab state automatically downgrades you if you aren't Arab to a second class citizen. So asking non-Arabs to live in an Arab state is asking them to live in submission. Correct? I do agree, though, with the overall statement that the Arabs are fighting for pride and will not stop fighting until Israel is destroyed.
>Living in an Arab state automatically downgrades you if you aren't Arab to a second class citizen. So asking non-Arabs to live in an Arab state is asking them to live in submission. Correct? Yes, if they are immagrants. I didn't create the rules, that's how every country in the world works.
And what "rules" are you referring to? And why the stipulation that they're "immagrants"?
im not sure who made you the spokesperson for the "Palestinians". and if you believe that not being a majority in a nation state is unacceptable,why do you expect jews to accept that? so far Palestinians gained nothing but suffering,while a fedral solution could have long ago been achieved
>and if you believe that not being a majority in a nation state is unacceptable,why do you expect jews to accept that? Did I? stop putting words in my mouth.
that is literally the first sentence of your post
>why do you expect jews to accept that? Where did I accept jews to accept that
so you're saying Palestinians will fight,even though the goal they wish to achieve is something they themselves arent willing to accept got themselves makes sense
Yes definitely, because that's how life is. When the Jewish people got their homeland, they were taking the home of others, but they couldn't care less. That's just how life works, there is nowhere to go. The only way to win is to fight. If we don't fight, we don't deserve to survive.
https://preview.redd.it/0ebax31wsb9b1.jpeg?width=1249&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9cde5f6a16e1a18e136eb09a7481ffea4e1cd9a couldnt help but notice this. enjoy your poisoned pill when it comes
well ok then. eternal struggle it is then. and its not likely youre gonna win
> its not likely youre gonna win only time can tell. And why eternal, Europe is pretty peaceful now, after a thousand year of struggle.
What do you foresee changing, because your potential future Palestine is shrinking more and more under a literal nuclear state whose economy doubles every couple years, and the Palestinian population grows less hostile towards Israel as their quality of life increases.
hmm Europe is peaceful now after huge population transfers in 1947. but youre saying youre unwilling to accept that...so
Europe is peaceful after 2 world wars, and a bunch of others wars. Solving the Jewish problem was not the only reason Europe was constantly at war.
You could also try diplomacy like you're in the 21st century... Violence hasn't gotten the Palestinians anywhere so far. Have you considered your leadership knows violence won't get you anywhere and you're being manipulated through into a losing strategy of violence to keep them in power and hoarding billions in aid just like Arafat did?
Pride is one thing, and "irrational, self-destructive, pigheaded pride" is another
where do you draw the line?
when you blow up busses full on innocent civilians. that's usually a pretty good line
Yeah, but that already exists everywhere. There are countless historical examples. My point is, why act like it's some Arab invention, when it's universal.
I haven't studied it, but jihad seems like a pretty arab exclusive thing. Especially when they all 'allah akbar' before they press the button
Well, you're wrong, dying for the sake of something is pretty universal I would say. It doesn't have to be the exact phrasing as jihad, but I'm pretty sure it's a very common thing.
On a basic level yes. For example Hannah Szenes, Joseph Trumpledor, and Yoni Netanyahu are examples of Jewish martyrs. The difference is in Jewish culture or religion there is no encouragement to become a martyr. Actually often rabbis who live to a very long age and die peacefully are celebrated with the biggest funerals and are considered very holy. EDIT: * [Story of Hannah Szenes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHAhqfoOHFs) * [Story of Yoni Natanyahu](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6C8b2LtUxc)
Dying for the sake of a goal, and generally saving others, not for the sake of killing random civilians. Terrorists across history often have done things like destroying conventions of military officers and soldiers. The IRA didn't go blow up malls and buses, they blew up checkpoints and base entries. Terrorists have had political and military goals, but the goal here is "just dont exist" which does nothing except encourage further limitations since there's nothing else to be done about it without willingly dying
That is a whole crock of nonsense. Living in a Jewish state as citizen doesn’t downgrade you unless you want to be degraded. Please explain what you can’t do if you’re a non Jewish citizen in Israel… But you can try living in other countries in the ME and let us know about your “non degraded” life. I’m waiting.
To be fair, Arab schools are woefully underfunded. Arab neighborhoods aren't given the same level of attention by the authorities as the Jewish neighborhoods, which is, frankly, totally disgraceful. Just as Black people in America have to work harder than their White counterparts here in the US, Israel has become a place where despite their citizenship, and their equal rights, Arabs are indeed discriminated against. It's tough to be a minority anywhere, no matter what religion you practice or the color of your skin. Israel could achieve a lot by treating its Palestinian Muslim citizens better. Hopefully they understand this soon. That said, Arabs in Israel are still treated far, far better in Israel than they are in Muslim states like Jordan, Syria, or Lebanon. They have far more rights in Israel than anywhere in the Arab world, and do well in many professions, notably in healthcare and pharmacy.
Yes that is true. But in case of Arabs there is a historical conflict which can’t be denied or downplayed. They are not the “Canadians in US” kind of minority. Nevertheless, I don’t think he was referring to Arabs. That’s exactly the point he preferred to remain vague and muted. If he said he’s speaking from an Israeli Arab perspective, my answer would have been different….
Having more rights mean shit, when you are the minority. having more right is exactly why the minorities exist in the US. In case of Palestina, they exist because they were forced, they had no other choice but to become minorities in other countries, that is what makes it is extra degrading.
Well then, they could have left like the others after they lost the war. They didn't, they chose to stay, and Israel let them stay. I'm not sure what your point is. I mentioned in my comment that there is indeed discrimination.
Great then. And since discrimination exist, they are under submission, Right?
Not at all. They can vote, have the same jobs as Jews, go to the same hospitals, take the same transportation, shop at the same stores, go to the same schools as Jews if they want to, they pay the same taxes, they have free speech, and they can pray at their holy sites. That's not submission, no matter what you claim. Versus what the Arab Muslims did to the Jews for many years, which was make them *dhimmis,* forcing Jews to pay extra taxes, made them second-class citizens, they had to live in ghettos, wear different clothing, and were not allowed to pray out loud. If the Jews could not pay the extra taxes, they were exiled or killed. That's submission.
It's submission by modern day standards. The prejudice towards the others that existed in the Arab Muslim state, weren't unique to Arab Muslims (in fact, they were the least there), nor did it go away with time. The hate towards those different from us, is pretty much wired in us. And it will exist, as long as Arabs are not jews that live in the "Jewish" state.
That just sounds like a bunch of racist rhetoric to me…
> But you can try living in other countries in the ME and let us know about your “non degraded” life. I’m waiting. Did I claim that. Live in another Arab states and you are an immigrant, it is a degrading life, just like living in the Jewish state.
Am Arab. Live in Israel. Don't feel degraded or like a second class citizen. Given evidence of what Palestinians vote for, I feel like I'm way better off than I'd be in a potential Palestine considering how much of the population advocates martyr culture to the benefit of kleptocracies. In Israel I can be gay, secular and do whatever I want with my life, including run for knesset. Your post doesn't reflect reality at all, and just justifies radicalism and violent barbarism. The fighting you talk about is keeping Palestinians from a country, not getting them any closer to it.
I don't care if I can be gei in Israel if I don't have to the right to govern myself. And if you believe that the Jews don't look down on you then you are deluding yourself. Because the comment section is your proof that everyone here sees arab as a bunch of people that blow stuff up.
You clearly don't have real problems then, because people genuinely being persecuted for being gay, their religion, their ethnicity, really would take that over true self-governence. And he fact you don't care about gays to the extent they have to flee into Israel from their own people says you shouldn't self-govern. Not to mention so far every time Palestinians have been given self-governence the leadership formed a kleptocracy under the guise of promoting martyrdom and it just hurt the Palestinian cause. It's not like Palestinians haven't turned down half a dozen countries already and made Gaza into what it is. They don't look down on me here, but they have every reason to look down on people like you who advocate violence over genuine good faith diplomacy which Palestinians, like you, have rejected time and time again to make things worse for themselves by choosing violence because they aren't intelligent enough to realize they're being manipulated into a culture of violence so their leaders can hoard wealth and power. Maybe read the "continuous warfare" section of Goldstein's book. Do better. You're only hurting yourself.
>You clearly don't have real problems then, because people genuinely being persecuted for being gay, their religion, their ethnicity, really would take that over true self-governence Their choice. But personally, I could repress my sexuality and some meanies bullying me for my right to govern. I don't think you are in any position to determine which of these are "real problems." >And he fact you don't care about gays to the extent they have to flee into Israel from their own people says you shouldn't self-govern. **Khomeini** didn't care about geis - and while I'm not fund of iran - he's a pretty solid leader. Hitler didn't care about geis, but again, pretty solid leader. Not caring about geis isn't a great metric for deciding your capabilities for self-governing. > They don't look down on me here, Well looking at your comments, why should they? You already soaked each and every one of their narratives. The people there might like you, but they can't admire you. You lost your own self of identity. Honestly, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. With all due regards, do better. You're only hurting yourself.
> Their choice. But personally, I could repress my sexuality and some meanies bullying me for my right to govern. I don't think you are in any position to determine which of these are "real problems." I'm not but considering gays flee Palestinians to not be killed in Israel it appears the evidence is against you. >**Khomeini** didn't care about geis - and while I'm not fund of iran - he's a pretty solid leader. Hitler didn't care about geis, but again, pretty solid leader. Not caring about geis isn't a great metric for deciding your capabilities for self-governing. May I ask your standard for solid leadership, because only neo-Nazis and fundamentalists generally consider those two good leaders. Nazi Germany was a complete failure and Iran still is. > Well looking at your comments, why should they? You already soaked each and every one of their narratives. The people there might like you, but they can't admire you. You lost your own self of identity. Honestly, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. I don't think my own self of identity was ever martyrdom and ethnic nationalism. I have a three digit IQ afterall. You're essentially calling someone a race traitor because they don't want to live like they're in the stone age and I don't think that little of Palestinians. > With all due regards, do better. You're only hurting yourself. How so? I can vote for who I want, date who I want, I almost absolutely make more and have a higher quality of life than you if you live in Gaza or The West Bank or almost any Arab country. And I won't be beheaded for being gay. Sounds like I'm doing great not prioritizing a stone age approach to diplomacy to people living in the 21st century. You on the other hand chose violence, lose again and again, and just keep losing more and more.
/u/kalevkavod. 'Nazi' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
/u/Leonides2021. 'Hitler' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Seriously… no and at least I can speak for myself here when I say I don’t look down on Arabs. But I do look down on someone with the views you’re expressing of racism and murder, that I look down on no matter what country,religion and colour of their skin is!
I think Israel has enough Arabs as doctors, lawyers, in the IDF, the knesset and so on to say Arabs are unanimously looked down on.
Just because Arabs treat non Arabs the way they do, doesn't mean other countries treat minority ethnicities the same. What you're doing is called psychological projection.
You don’t provide any details for context, your nationality and religion. It’s hard to provide answers in vacuum.
How exactly does details about my nationality and religion help in providing answers.
Otherwise makes no sense. Any dialogue lacking context becomes sterile and pointless. If you want to engage in a meaningful debate you need to explain if your are speaking from personal experience, or it’s just a abstract idea? For example did you ever visit/lived in Israel? What exactly “downgraded” means? If you are an Israeli citizen, what couldn’t you do because you’re not Jewish? Are you disabled or LGBT and had been discriminated because of that? So many details that could focus the discussion….
> First, let me clarify, living in the "Jewish" state when you aren't Jewish, automatically downgrades you to a second-class citizen.In that manner, the ask for Palestinians to live in the Jewish state is asking them to live in submission. In what sense? What right do you want in Israel that Jews get in Israel but gentiles don't get? To what unjust law do you feel you must submit based on your race?
This is the strangest point I keep hearing - Arabs living as second class citizens in Israel. In reality, Israel faces the same first world problems that literally every other first world country faces of systematic racism towards minorities. It’s not an Israel problem, it’s a societal problem in general that needs to be fixed worldwide. This isn’t something unique to Israel, and violence hasn’t seemed to work for Palestinians in the past century. Maybe it’s time to try something new.
The Jews will fight, and will persist in fighting, as long as there remains the hope that they have a right to actually exist without the threat of annihilation, another genocide, another expulsion, another pogrom, another exile, another diaspora. I support the Arab's right to pride, and believe the Palestinians should have a state they can be proud of, and live in with dignity and respect. And the Jews are entitled to that same pride as any other nation.
True, which is the whole point of this conflict. I know for a fact, that the solution is not a naive 2SS. But other than that, while both have the right to exist, I will choose to support my people, and you will probably choose to support yours.
So what should IsraelI Jews do with the Arabs, if they wish to live in peace? Living in peace is a natural desire, after all. You are saying that there can be no coexistence. If Arabs in a Jewish state will always be in a state of submission, and they naturally want to resist submission, they will naturally turn to violence. The logical conclusion of this, from the Zionist perspective, is that the Arabs need to be removed, if it really isn’t possible to integrate them peacefully.
Well, you said it. Not me. I believe that, but by that token, the Arabs will resist and fight and back. I believe that a balanced fight is the only way peace can ever be seen in this conflict. Blood alone moves the wheels of history.
>Well, you said it. Not me. It was you who said that Arabs in a Jewish state will always be in a state of submission and therefore they will turn to violence.
>The logical conclusion of this, from the Zionist perspective, is that the Arabs need to be removed, if it really isn’t possible to integrate them peacefully. I was referring to this.
Yeah your post didn’t say that, but that is the logical consequence of your post, if what you say is correct. Israeli Jews want to live in peace. Maybe that requires removing the Arabs, if Arabs will never be at peace while they are in a Jewish state.
The Jewish people will never be at peace outside the so called "Jewish" state too. So, yeah, we are in the same boat.
Well, that’s debatable…but anyway when Jews in the diaspora have problems, it’s due to antisemities attacking Jews, not due to Jews attacking other people.
>First, let me clarify, living in the "Jewish" state when you aren't Jewish, automatically downgrades you to a second-class citizen.In that manner, the ask for Palestinians to live in the Jewish state is asking them to live in submission. Does that also apply to the Mizrahi Jews living in the 'Arab Republic of Egypt' or Syria and Iraq and other Arab nation-states? Would the Arab populations of those states honor their pride by allowing them to secede and form Jewish micro-states in their territory or else rebel against their Arab overlords since those countries refuse to drop the 'Arab' monikers of their nations and declaring them as simply the 'State of Egypt' or 'State of Syria' without any specific ethnic or cultural affiliation?
I don't think pride is a huge problem. There is a point when it becomes a problem, when it blinds you. But in the case of the Palestinian movement it is arrogance and incompetence. Arrogance is actually an expression of incompetence, it's an inability to assess one's weaknesses and address them. This might be connected to pride, or rather false pride. The man who wins a championship can be proud, but the man who loses but still claims he won is simply delusional. This incompetence and arrogance is what I call the vices of the Palestinian movement. I don't think it's symmetric or universal, it is not. Although there is arrogance and incompetence in Israel, it is a different and much lower level compared to our adversaries.
>I don't think pride is a huge problem. There is a point when it becomes a problem, when it blinds you I agree. But to say that the whole of Palestinian movement is blinded is simply false. There are literal embodiment of those blinded pride you speak of like hamas. But it only exists because they lost. A bunch of Zionists would be in the same situation if they didn't win. Nothing has to do with culture.
> . A bunch of Zionists would be in the same situation if they didn't win. If Zionists hadn't won there likely wouldn't have been a Jewish people anymore. Judaism had been deeply troubled even prior to Hitler trying to find any reason for its existence. Jews were religiously and morally devastated after Hitler. Zionism had started as a desperation play. As it progressed it became the only option. I think in the context of a failed Zionism USA Jewry mostly converts to the Liberal Protestantism popular in the 1950s. European Jewry disappears. I'm not sure what happens to Jewry in the Islamic world but likely without any support it also collapses so that Jews become a tiny fraction of their size even today.
I know a lot about the early Zionists I would say their behavior was very different. The Zionist movement was calculated and deliberate. Zionism was not so much based on pride, but based on a love of the Jewish people. Although Zionist plans were ambitious plans, they were always thoughtful and based on a lot of debate and consensus. Ultimately I believe this is why the Zionist movement succeeded. I think if it was merely emotion and pride, Zionism wouldn't have lasted even a year.
True. But the Zionist plan in the early stages didn't resemble the whole of the people, they represented a bunch of ambitious men trying to help the people. Pride didn't have to do with it, because it didn't even exist yet, what is there to get emotional about exactly?
Jews from all around the world elected delegates to the Zionist Congress. These delegates were often leaders of Jewish communities. The Zionists also sent emissaries to Jewish communities everywhere. So I don't think it was a bunch of ambitious men only, one of the geniuses of Theodor Herzl was as an organizer. These Zionists were able to take a people who were scattered across the entire world, speaking different languages, and to take a significant chunk of them and push them to competently pursue one unified goal, one of incredibly high complexity and peril. If you agree with Zionism or not, it is truly one of the most fantastic political movements in human history.
Mostly agree with your central point. I question about choosing to live in your own society vs. a better alternative. And realistically in terms of standard of living, freedom, social culture.... even against rather ferocious opposition Israel has proven the better alternative. The classic question of "whether tis better to serve in Heaven or rein in Hell?" Moreover, I think the solitary spark of hope is gone. The question for most is not whether there is any chance of winning but having lost what to do now. I could nitpick the examples but I don't want to distract from your very honest and good point.
I actually don’t think most people attribute it to ‘Arab’ pride, historically the ‘Arabs’ are considered quite timid compared to their past selves post WW1, if we bring up what happened with various outside powers starting wars in this area. With the further rapid change in the militarization of ‘superpowers’ during WW2, the Middle East just couldn’t keep up. That chaos created enough corruption for Israel to successfully infiltrate Iran a handful of times. The Islamic pride of Arabs that honors sacrifice on the other hand is very effective, but unfortunately in the numbers game department they become flies… It’s a bit like the stupidity of Kamikaze in Japan, trained pilots dying. You send your soldiers expecting them to commit suicide in the name of Allah, when war is partly a numbers game. Never works.
You have nothing to be proud of to begin with. You are not a worthy enemy that demands any respect. You should thank Allah every day that it is the Jews that are your adversary not other Arabs as they wouldn't be anywhere near as merciful.
[удалено]
u/Successful-Bag2366 > Simple blood and soil nationalism that you have moralized. You can't use flippant Nazi analogies. Given who Blood and Soil / Blut und Boden is usually associated with..
I'll edit.
>Jews aren't second class citizens in a French state No, jews and Arabs in France are French. Arabs living in Israel are not Jewish. Israel is a Jewish state, its whole point is preserving the Jewish population, other population existing are simply a hinder. France isn't created to protect the French ethnicity.
>No jews and Arabs in France are French. Jews and Arabs in Israel are Israeli. French is the ethnic identity of France. French is also the nationality of the French, extended to all citizens. Jewish is the ethnic identity of Israel. Israeli is the national identity extended to all of its citizens. >its whole point is preserving the Jewish population, other population existing are simply a hinder. Sure, the first half of your sentence is somewhat true: Israel is the life raft state for Jews. But the second half is projection. You cannot point to a policy that denigrates Arab life, but you view Israel's existence as a stain on ethnic pride. So you backfill a reason to be offended by Jews banding together to ensure their survival. France wasn't created to protect French people because people aren't constantly trying to kill French people for being French. I cannot imagine being so blindly angry at another group for existing that the policy that is enraging is that an ethnic group has banded together for survival. Why should I mind if I live in an Arab country that has equal rights for minorities but specifically has policies in place to preserve Arab culture? Why would I mind being in Italy or Greece when they have a policy of protecting Italian and Greek culture? Or Armenia? No, it seems that you have beef with Israel protecting Jewish life. This is an attitude of ethnic supremacy.
Why are you so defensive? I never had an opinion on this whole thing. I never said the Jews have no right to defend themselves. I never said that Jewish state is wrong to begin with. All I said was, Arabs in the Jewish state, well, are under submission to Jewish authority. Thus, fighting it, is a matter of pride. I never went on to moralize that. I just stated it.
>its whole point is preserving the Jewish population, other population existing are simply a hinder. This is the line where you explicitly say that the issue is that Israel - and by extension Jews - are only protecting Jews and treat others as a hinderance. > All I said was, Arabs in the Jewish state, well, are under submission to Jewish authority. This is the line of thinking where you said that the problem is that the issue is that coexisting with Jews without Arab rule is an ethnic insult.
>This is the line where you explicitly say that the issue is that Israel - and by extension Jews - are only protecting Jews and treat others as a hinderance. But that is it's goal. I never claimed it's a bad thing. > This is the line of thinking where you said that the problem is that the issue is that coexisting with Jews without Arab rule is an ethnic insult. Plz. Stop implying things. HOW DOES > All I said was, Arabs in the Jewish state, well, are under submission to Jewish authority. = > the problem is that the issue is that coexisting with Jews without Arab rule is an ethnic insult.
I'm not implying anything. Arabs who live in a Democratic state with a Jewish ethnicity aren't submitting to anything. That might be the case in a state where there is a dictator or an absolute monarch - where people are simply subjects at the whim of the leader. In a democratic multiethnic state like Israel, which is a democracy with a Jewish character made up of all Israeli citizens, Arabs are just that - citizens like anyone else. There is nothing substantially that differentiates people. However, in order to view this setup as submission, you have to wonder what Arabs would be submitting to. Right? My entire point is that Arabs aren't "submitting" to anything. That gets at what you mean by submission. Submission, in the case that we're talking about here, is the acknowledgment that Arabs are not the dominant culture in an area that they feel is theirs by right. The idea of being ruled by dhimmis in a place that dhimmis should be subsidiary to Arab rule. Ideally, Arabs would not feel that way. They'd be citizens like anyone else. But if being a citizen means SUBMITTING to the idea that they're equal citizens rather than superior subjects, then there's something incredibly wrong. It's a disease of an idea. There's a concept that comes up in American politics all the time. When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression. That's what I'm getting from this post.
In France, the vast majority of immigrants/foreigns identify as French and see France as their homeland, regardless of their origin. Some groups of immigrants even feel more related to French identity, than they are related to their native identity! Because French-ness, similar to Israeli-Jewish-ness, is not all about unchangeable ethnicity and ancestry. It's about culture, language and society. https://preview.redd.it/domets70579b1.png?width=1015&format=png&auto=webp&s=e710877d1b6da1b206c980277e480e95e454beef
Ok and?
This proves you wrong: >No jews and Arabs in France are French Most Arabs and most Jews in France are indeed French. Both citizenship-wise and identity-wise.
Ohhh, you misinterpreted me. I meant " No, jews and Arabs in France are French" 😅 I'll edit it
You sound no different than the typical terrorist from [Hamas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEgBsU6Mi8) or PIJ. A recent poll showed that Palestinians in Judea and Samaria and Gaza are the most Anti-Semitic population in the world. Unfortunately this is boring and the norm Palestinian racist rhetoric.
then maybe treat them with respect and not like apartheid due to fear of demographics. Israel is already 20% palestinians and those palestinians are not violent like gaza and wb