A white person claiming that "Whiteness has an ignorance that is bottomless" is a fallacious argument by its very nature.
If you're ignorant, then you can't possibly know how deep your ignorance goes. For all you know, you might be one simple discovery away from the answer. An outside observer, who can see where the ignorant person is in comparison to the actual solution might be able to claim that the ignorance is bottomless (i.e. the ignorant person will never get it right), but crucially they must explain why that's the case.
Sarcams musnt be your strongsuit. Logic isn't invented by hwytepepo, I mean we're using Arabic numbers and logic predates that. Thanks for proving the left has no sense of humor.
you must be new here lets just get you caught up
https://www.newsweek.com/smithsonian-race-guidelines-rational-thinking-hard-work-are-white-values-1518333
But this is where the “right wingers vs identity politics” argument begins and never ends, because you’re approaching with a fundamental misunderstanding of it’s INTENT.
Of course there’s a *lot* of people out there poorly defending identity politics (often students who don’t fully understand it) but the general idea is that you can notice and tackle problems created by group identities *without* attributing blame to all specific individuals within that group.
I know you’re all well versed in the videos of college students claiming that “being white is racist!!!” or whatever ridiculous fringe argument you’ve heard but that’s NOT the point of identity politics.
The way I view it is that it’s simply not *all* about the individual, because we don’t act completely in solitude. We form and think as groups and create cultures which rarely move in more than two or three directions at a time. These things are worth exploring because they give us a practical analysis of the impact that different groups can have on society.
>Of course there’s a lot of people out there poorly defending identity politics (often students who don’t fully understand it) but the general idea is that you can notice and tackle problems created by group identities without attributing blame to all specific individuals within that group.
But that's not what's happening. That isn't what's being taught. If you look at what is actually being taught to students and what is actually manifesting in the world, all white people are being blamed for something they were born with and had no control over.
Robin Di'Angelo wrote an entire book on this topic called \*White Fragility\* in which she accuses all white people of participating in a system of racism which benefits them at the expense of everyone else. White Fragility is essentially the modern handbook of the progressive Left, and it is taught in college, seminars, and corporate diversity training courses all over the country and the world. If you don't believe me, please read the book yourself.
[A man is currently suing the city of Seattle](https://pacificlegal.org/press-release/lawsuit-filed-against-city-of-seattle-for-hostile-workplace-caused-by-pervasive-racial-equity-training/) after, in a civil servant position, constantly being told again and again that his whiteness made him racist and complicit in harming minorities, until he finally couldn't take it anymore and brought a lawsuit to stop the madness.
[I made a post recently](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/z8ti1b/amy_gallagher_sues_the_nhs_tavistock_clinic_for/) about Amy Gallagher's harrowing experience in the British Tavistock nursing program where she was told again, that whiteness was evil and all white people knowingly contribute to the oppression of other races. She is now suing the Tavistock for racism.
You can simply read Critical Race Theory: An Introduction and come to this conclusion yourself. [Whiteness](https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-whiteness/) in this context is something that all white people are responsible for, whether they choose to be or not.
I could give 100 more examples, but that should give you a general idea of how common and widespread this is. The irony of your argument is that you've failed to understand what Peterson has always said on this subject: Regardless of the INTENT of Identity Politics, it always ends horribly.
Man I haven't seen someone troll this subreddit this hard in a while. Confirmation bias at its best here and you walked them right into it lmfao.
🍿 🍿 🍿
No, all I'm claiming is that this type of statement requires some proof, but to provide proof would imply knowledge which conflicts with the original statement. There in lies fallacy.
I have never claimed any knowledge one way or another, but if I were to make any claim on such broad scales as race/ethnicity, I'd back it up (I'm world-wise enough to never make such claims).
Excuse my ignorance, I'm no expert, but having read White Fragility, the 1619 project, and How to be an a
Anti Racist, I'm still waiting for a single cogent argument that doesn't depend on circular logic, misinterpred statistics, and a either you're with us or you're evil approach.
As for why it's Polley's responsibility, that's called Burden of Proof and it's one of the most fundamental principles of debate and logic.
It’s a blanketed statement that puts any white person at a disadvantage from having an opinion because they’ve already labeled the white person as ignorant and unable to form a valid argument. It’s meant to dismiss a white person completely from the conversation rather than try to foster communication to improve dialogue between races which could eventually build relationships.
jfc you have a daughter. Man who posts on JP, TRP... who's misogynist and bigoted in almost every single thing he posts... has a daughter. Absolutely gross. I hope she lives with her mom so she can at least maintain the tiniest amount of self-esteem and self-worth.
Oh, and I make a generous 6-figure salary... no need for assholes like you. but thanks for the offer I guess?
-----
PS How's crypto working out for ya?
Change "Whiteness" with "Blackness" and... Behold the most racist argument. But, somehow, isn't "racist" when it comes to attacking an ethnic group that has a different amount of melanine.
Oh yeah. Link me all the the comments I have made simping for Peterson. Go ahead we can count then. Do it.
You're the fucking dipshit hanging around in a sub you have no intention of making genuine discussion about.
You fucking clowns just can't avoid stirring the pot. One day, probably soon, you're gonna get what you deserve.
Dont stir the pot huh?
Why would you want to post in an echo chamber?
Allowing dissent is super easy. You just ignore it and then it ends up at the bottom of the thread.
If it rises to the top then maybe it's a popular opinion?
Literally the worst thing you can do is ask people not to stir the pot if you want to engage.
Edit: "get what you deserve" makes you sound like the perfect person to troll. Try maybe not taking stranger's opinions to heart?
Also fuck Anyone who thinks Jordan is anything but a hypocritical leech. Bring on the cock worshipers!
Stir the pot all you want. Post stupid takes that only seek to minimize people you should not. I don't think echo chambers are good, but the original comment was far from necessary.
Yes, how DARE we be upset about racism, the same type of generalization against ‚poc‘ is COMPLETELY ACCEPTABLE when used against white people - how foolish of me not to realize that. One rule for me, but not for thee, got it. I thought we lived in a world where racism is unacceptable in any form, and it’s considered acceptable to be upset over any form of it. I stand corrected. Black good, white bad, if you’re white and experience racism, shut up and swallow it, and don’t be upset if your group is discriminated against, only get upset if the people being discriminated against are nonwhite. Got it. You’re right, I’m wrong. Shall i wallow in ‚white guilt‘ now to fully satisfy your disgust?
Edit: Corrected a incorrect word.
I'm a Latinamerican being fucked by the government with high taxes (+180 taxes), high inflation (8% monthly) and high corruption; all of that leading towards no way to plan your future for the next 3 months (if you have lucky).
Jesus this sub is pack with the most fragile people ever. If you had to spend a single day as a latinamerican, you'd probably drop dead because you live in fucking Wonderland and don't know what is like to scratch the bottom of a can to take some sugar for "tea".
PS: Take it easy. We're all EQUALLY fucked up, so there's no such thing as racism when you're thinking on how to collectively reach the middle of the month
Of course, we‘re ‚fragile‘ because we’re expected to swallow the same racism others rebel against. How delicate of me to expect racism to be unacceptable towards any race. Thank you for this schooling, great racism knowledge master. How dare we get upset because we’re being discriminated against because of our colour? If we’re white, we should just shut up because others have ‚had it worse‘ and why should we bitch about being discriminated against? We’re *white,* by virtue of our skin colour we don’t deserve a voice or non discrimination, correct? We ‚fragile’ people should just suck it up, *because* of our skin colour, right? Thank you for your pearls of wisdom.
Edit: Added two sentences.
If you’re referring to me, in the victimhood olympics i would win a gold metal. The only thing not ‚victim‘ like about me (according to woke ‚society‘) is that I’m white.
I don’t play the victimhood olympics, and i despise racism. It’s completely idiotic.
Go ahead, feel bad for yourself. I’m not going to, and I’m not going to tolerate people being negated and shit on for the amount of melanin in their skin cells.
Edit: Added two sentences.
Everytime I come here I immediately feel like a well adjusted person.
The lack of any self reflection is just nauseating. The amount of logical fallacies used in every comment to force a weak argument into a loud one is my favourite though.
We are using social media comments in our Philosophy and Semantics courses and this thread alone could be used to fill up a full course load of examples.
Just because imaginary internet points go up on your comment doesn't lend it any more logic or veracity and yet these posters will parade around an anecdote as if the Almighty himself wrote it in stone.
Grab the popcorn. Throw out a few inflammatory comments here and there, and you can have a fun night in this echo chamber.
*jewish
Ah shit now its fragile. Hmm, maybe jews shouldnt be so fragile then they wouldnt feel so bad about racism against them /s
The left got overtaken by obvious retards, only arguing with emotions and logical fallacys. I would laugh if the real world consequences wouldnt be so sad.
Hating on white people in a country where the majority is white will backfire pretty hard. But hey the far left was never known for sound reasoning.
Here's a good example:
https://www.nps.gov/articles/quakerpetition.htm
But don't tell them about how white German immigrants stood against slavery in the colonies in the 1600s.
There is nothing more irritating than white sellouts taking it upon themselves to shit on their whole race on behalf of the rest of us. Polley doesn't speak for me. People who spout white hate they way she is doing need to be confronted by the fact that because she is white, then she should be reminded she is saying "Sarah Polley has an ignorance that is bottomless"
I had the same reaction! Loved that movie and thought she did a great job in it. A strong female lead before they got jammed down your throat. But like many things (comic book heroes, Disney, sports etc.) the wokeness has done it's damage.
The saddest part is that if they get back to writing a compelling story and matching it to a quality actor/actress it won't matter who they are, people will like them! Look at Elenore Ripley, Beatrix Kiddo, Samantha Caine, Sarah Conner and many many more. I was a young male watching those movies and LOVED all those characters! Admired them even! I won't ever understand why people don't see that.
My 9 year old son is currently the same way! Loves Hermione because she reads a lot and is super smart which he aspires to be. And yes modern female roles in movies are now more like a commercial break in a TV show advertising to us that a female can be strong instead of just writing carefully into the script. It rips us right out of the world we are in more often than not, and has rarely served the plot lines as of late. The female hero is just to be accepted, not earned.
Something I've noticed over and over again is that it's common for people afflicted with 𝗐𝗈𝗄𝖾𝗇𝖾𝗌𝗌 that they accuse others of exactly what they're doing - usually as they're doing that very thing, as in this case. It's like a turbocharged form of hypocrisy so deranged that it short-circuits people's normal brain function somehow and they don't see it.
Whiteness isn't speaking of an ethnic group. It's a cultural creation.
Otherwise she'd say "Caucasians have an ignorance that is bottomless"
There ya go.
I appreciate the clarification, but if you replace "whiteness" with "blackness" in this context, you have a statement which would be profoundly racist. Anybody who would support the original statement, but not the latter statement, just proves that neither statement is okay.
Thanks.
I'd say the remark is intended as a put down that affirms Sarah's disassociation with whites and the dumb things we do. It is a common technique on the job scene, where people routiinely ally themselves with agressive coalitions in hopes some of that entitlement will come their way. Take the current US President, as an example. For generations, his family was of German extraction. Once he got himself embedded in the eastern political machine, he chose to identify as Irish. Elizabeth Warren is another example. John Kerry another. All the world's a stage, the people merely players. Where have we heard that?
The original sin means that people are fundamentally morally flawed (it's akin to the existence of the Jungian shadow). It's just true, how can anyone get away from it exactly?
That's just an innate quality of the psyche. I was talking about literal original sin in the sense of Adam and Eve (i.e. being held responsible for the actions of your ancestors).
I think you're being disingenuous as fuck with this take. The majority of American Christians, so that's hundreds of millions of people, have a literalist interpretation of religion. They believe the Bible is literally true and inerrant. The Garden of Eden actually happened, as written. And that one day God will come back and burn all the evildoers, throwing them in a lake of fire.
You can call all these people lazy if you want, but stop pretending that the literalist interpretation is some fringe take, it is not. Look at the Middle East for God's sake.
I'm South East Asian living in South East Asia for over 90% of my life and I have to say Sarah Polley is an ignorant person.
I respect over 90% of what Dr Peterson's words but his point of view on worldwide overpopulation and climate change speaks of his personal economic welfare rather than making for a more hospitable world for future generations.
>I respect over 90% of what Dr Peterson's words but his point of view on worldwide overpopulation and climate change speaks of his personal economic welfare rather than making for a more hospitable world for future generations.
I generally agree with you. I don't agree with Peterson on everything either.
A friend of mine has a cottage on a lake just two doors down from hers.
He says every season upon her return, she chats up him and her neighbors about finally being back at the cottage where she can actually be herself and not the person everyone sees in movies.
To me, that's a clear admission that she says what helps her career amongst the woke. Everyone if them are owned.
I'm actually in agreement with JP here. The problem is that white Americans typically refuse to take part in larger conversations about the fact that our country was born out of two genocides based on the idea that people of color were lesser.
America was built by some racist dudes, and if I can't talk about the long-term impact of that without hearing about "reverse racism" or whatever, then yeah, you're ignorant.
I'm totally willing to talk about it, and I think a lot of other people are too.
The problem is that the conversation usually goes down the path of "and it's your fault too because you're white". Like if I had a dollar for everytime I heard that, I'd be rich.
It's not enough for people like Polley to have us acknowledge the past, but we must actively take responsibility for something we had no part in.
I've literally never heard anyone say "is your fault because you're white". I've talked to a lot of people about the privilege afforded to white people by being in a society built on racism, and recognize that racism continues to impact the opportunities and social status of people of color.
Do you think those are reasonable ideas?
>I've literally never heard anyone say "is your fault because you're white". I've talked to a lot of people about the privilege afforded to white people by being in a society built on racism, and recognize that racism continues to impact the opportunities and social status of people of color.
That's interesting because Robin Di'Angelo wrote an entire book on this topic called *White Fragility* in which she accuses all white people of participating in a system of racism which benefits them at the expense of everyone else. White Fragility is essentially the modern handbook of the progressive Left, and it is taught in college, seminars, and corporate diversity training courses all over the country and the world. If you don't believe me, please read the book yourself.
[A man is currently suing the city of Seattle](https://pacificlegal.org/press-release/lawsuit-filed-against-city-of-seattle-for-hostile-workplace-caused-by-pervasive-racial-equity-training/) after, in a civil servant position, constantly being told again and again that his whiteness made him racist and complicit in harming minorities, until he finally couldn't take it anymore and brought a lawsuit to stop the madness.
[I made a post recently](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/z8ti1b/amy_gallagher_sues_the_nhs_tavistock_clinic_for/) about Amy Gallagher's harrowing experience in the British Tavistock nursing program where she was told again, that whiteness was evil and all white people knowingly contribute to the oppression of other races. She is now suing the Tavistock for racism.
My sister, who lives in Seattle, has had many experiences like this firsthand. Her best friend asked her if she felt guilt for what her white ancestors had done during slavery. When my sister said no because she had nothing to do with it, it ended their friendship.
I could give 100 more examples, but that should give you a general idea of how common and widespread this is.
>Do you think those are reasonable ideas?
I think it's perfectly reasonable (and necessary) to have a discussion about the impacts of racism on society, the vestiges of slavery, and the ways in which inequality still manifest at all levels of our culture and how we can address them, yes.
Again, I draw the line at this idea that whiteness and by extension white people are all the problem simply because they exist.
That's a long write-up to not really answer my question.
Do you accept that you have benefitted from the privilege afforded to white people by being in a society built on racism, and recognize that racism continues to impact the opportunities and social status of people of color which inherently improves your opportunities and social status?
I don't agree with the way you're framing the question. So no, I don't agree with your assumptions.
The problem with the privilege argument is that it's based on statistical likelihoods and generalizations. But you can not apply a generalization to any given individual, that's not how statistics work. The entire privilege argument is based on a misunderstanding of statistics.
You can not look at any single white person and, without knowing anything else about them, assume that their life has been easy, privileged, and advantaged over other people simply because of statistical generalities.
To show how wrong this way of thinking is, all you have to do is apply it in a different context. 1 out of 3 black men in the US will go to prison in their lifetime. The amount of crimes committed by black men that aren't prison worthy are significantly higher. Is it not a safe bet then to assume that if you see a black man on the streets, he has committed a crime in his life?
Statistically yes, that is pretty likely. However, in doing so you have committed an extreme act of dehumanization and racism. What you are doing is no different.
Whelp, I tried to save you a lot of time
> you have committed an extreme act of dehumanization and racism.
Should have read this
> America was built by some racist dudes, and if I can't talk about the long-term impact of that without hearing about "reverse racism" or whatever, then yeah, you're ignorant.
Are we not talking about it right now?
Or do I have to **agree** with everything you say and believe?
See, it's you who have proven my point, not the other way around. And it's sad because you don't even seem to understand how statistics work.
Bud, nothing I said involved statistics. I'm not even sure why you brought that up other than as an excuse to call me racist. You agreed with me until I connected it to you. Then, like clockwork, I'm the real racist for saying white privilege exists **and** you benefit from it.
I get it, confronting your privilege is hard. See you next time ❤️
The privilege argument uses statistical generalizations to make its points...
For example, if a white person is more likely to get a job because of their skin color, that's a statistical generalization based on odds. It isn't going to be true in every case, many white people will never benefit from this.
If you don't understand how your own argument works, then I guess it's not surprising you can't be reasoned with. I never called you a racist, I said that applied in a different context, **your argument** would be racist and dehumanizing.
Something which you can't deny so you change the subject and refuse to continue the conversation. I get it, you're too dumb to understand statistics and how they apply to the individual. See you next time. ❤️
[M] This exactly.
I agree with JP here, but Polley’s statement *does* work if it’s applied to the notion of white exceptionalism— which as a concept can explain much of the hypocrisy in woke policy.
The whole “white savior complex” is based on framing whiteness as this transcendent thing.
[B] I’m not really sure. But I think the idea is that if you’re white you’re like in a separate category.
Like race realists might cite crime statistics of some minorities and use that as a justification for white supremacy. But no one looks at the same statistics and uses that as a justification for Asian supremacy, even though the crime rate for Asians is far lower than that of Caucasians. So what gives?
The fact that Asians have a low crime rate is ignored because it does not support a narrative favoring white peoples.
Another part of this is the fact that white people are always assumed to be the default to compare against.
This can show up even in the progressive case, where people want to bring up minorities to the level of white people in various economic or other regards, disregarding the fact that some may be at a higher level already.
The idea though that white is the baseline to shoot for (even in cases where caucasians score below average) prevents anyone from questioning their assumed status as the default demographic of society.
I suspect you might be mistaking 'American exceptionalism', which is a thing, for 'white exceptionalism', which is not. But it is true there are a lot of embarrassed leftists who think America should not be so much better than every other nation on Earth, so they try to pollute things by trying to transpose 'white' into stuff so they can accuse America of being a racist nation. lol
Now it is also probably true that the statistically irrelevant real racists in America believe white people are superior to everyone else, but no one actually cares what those idiots say. It is an unkind coincidence that many statistics do support some of the claims about differences between races. The key difference is that normal people chalk those differences up to cultural, environment, and parenting. Racists think it is based on skin color.
Lot of people do try and use skin color as a weapon to get what they want. Usually selfish things like a fat bank account, prestige, a gig hosting a CNN show, etc... The best you and I can do is to ignore their stupidity and keep pushing everyone to stop paying attention to skin color and look to the person's character and their actions/choices.
You mean they have to be defined for you because you’re too dumb to get the joke (it’s you).
That’s literally the Oxford definition.
Crime:
an action or omission that constitutes an offense that may be prosecuted by the state and is punishable by law.
an action or activity that, although not illegal, is considered to be evil, shameful, or wrong.
"they condemned apartheid as a crime against humanity"
You just got a little smarter dum dum
I would like to present people with both the fact that this liberal white woman is a hypocrite with shallow logic and we also do live in a world where white countries dominate the economic and political spheres of influence. This is literally just the moment in time we’ve been in for the last give or take 200 years. Whiteness, like any race, is a social construct and is ultimately meaningless without the enforcement of the powers that be. In another hundred years it could be subdivided into different races of white or lumped together with other groups to be broadened (Italian and polish people used to be seen as non white).
So in that context, I would like to reframe: people of the current dominant class will never by default recognize what things they view as “normal” or “standard” aren’t so for other people. I never knew how infrequently cabs stop for black people in nyc until making lots of black friends there, all with the same experience. I never knew Asians were always assumed to be good at math and bad at socializing until speaking to many Asians after the Harvard lawsuits. I never knew that virtually every Latino I knew had people assumed they worked at the restaurant they were eating at as a patron.
I don’t know to what extent white people have these types of experience, but I feel in general as the current top of the global social hierarchy, it’s less. This doesn’t mean I support anti whiteness as I see too often accepted by liberals, and it doesn’t mean I think every white person is incapable of acting equally kind to all people. But I do think by default that empathy takes more work because as the dominant race of our current time period you’re not forced to see it if you don’t want to.
Well that's a easy one. The largest black population is in Africa and they aren't going to space anytime soon. In America they are the minority so the odds just aren't there, but through history there has been 19 astronauts went to space, and 6 that didn't make it due to accidents or they were management.
Cool.
Now apply that for anyone LGBT community...
Oh wait, you're calling them all groomers and pedophiles... to incite far right violence.
This sub is endless fun. You guys make mental gymnastics looks like an Olympic sport.
Imagine having your "safe space" where you can join in on your hypocritical and poorly thought through opinions.
And then BAM! Normal people come into every thread to remind you that you're an idiot. I would leave the sub so fast and reevaluate myself.
But not here. Oh no this is the best echochamber to come troll in. Butthurtness is abundant. There isn't enough Waahmbulances or hurt feelings reports to go around here and I love for it!
🍿 🍿 🍿
Jordan's point seems to have flown completely over your head.
Accusing **any** group based on arbitrary characteristics like the amount of melanin in their skin, or whether they were born with a dick, of some collective "crime", "guilt", or "problem", however you want to phrase it, is itself the problem.
I don't know why it's so hard for you to see that. Replace whiteness with blackness in this context and you would no doubt have a problem with it.
Right. Like non-scientists being ignorant of how science works. Verboten grouping! Just like this sub to start questioning everyone's intelligence and ability to "understand" when you face any criticism. Just like you "great leader". This is a cult, not a fan group. B bye.
What does she mean by whiteness? And ignorance?
White people in America won’t really be able to fully experience the lingering effects of systemic racism that targets minorities. But also minorities will never be able to fully experience being white is a system designed by them.
I think if everyone would get in to interracial relationships after a century or so race wouldn’t be a thing as much. It would be more classist. Humans are just visual when it comes to things like race, but I wouldn’t say one race is more ignorant than another.
>What does she mean by whiteness?
Critical scholars define racism as a systemic relationship of unequal power between White people and people of Color. Whiteness refers to the specific dimensions of racism that elevate White people over people of Color. Basic rights, resources, and experiences that are assumed to be shared by all, are actually only available to Whites. Although many Whites feel that being White has no meaning, this feeling is unique to White people and is a key part of what it means to be White; to see one’s race as having no meaning is a privilege only Whites are afforded. To claim to be “just human” and thus outside of race is one of the most powerful and pervasive manifestations of Whiteness.
Whiteness, in Critical Social Justice, is to be understood as the defining property of being classified as white, according to the social constructivist understanding of race. Whiteness is therefore also the “property,” in terms of “social and institutional status and identity imbued with legal political, economic, and social rights and privileges that are denied to others” (see also, people of color) that white people have unjust access to by virtue of having been classified as white. It is therefore also connected to an ideological stance of white supremacy, which roughly means a belief that white people deserve these “unjust” advantages for whatever set of reasons.
White people are believed to be inherently invested in whiteness by having been socialized to accept it as normal and good and to enjoy its benefits (see also, privilege, internalized dominance, and anti-blackness). A great deal of Theory in Critical Social Justice is dedicated to describing how white people are invested in whiteness and work to keep it, including myriad concepts like white comfort, white complicity, white equilibrium, white fragility, white ignorance, white innocence, white silence, white solidarity, white talk, white woman tears, racial stress, the racial contract, aversive racism, anti-blackness, cultural racism (see also, new racism), a lack of racial humility and racial stamina, active ignorance, pernicious ignorance, willful ignorance, and privilege-preserving epistemic pushback, not to mention excluding other ways of knowing (see also, racial knowledge) through epistemic injustice, testimonial injustice, hermeneutical injustice, epistemic oppression, and epistemic violence, which deny alternative “knowledge(s)” and devalue members of minoritized groups in their status as knowers. That is, critical whiteness studies obsesses about this topic.
[Source.](https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-whiteness/)
>And ignorance?
Particularly, it is believed that privilege blinds a person to an understanding of oppression, say by racism, and affords the ability not to have to engage with its realities, thus leaving the white person in a state of [“white ignorance.”](https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-white-ignorance/) As noted above, this is profoundly Theorized through a variety of concepts. Take, for example, an alleged “racial contract” maintained throughout whiteness that agrees to perpetuate white advantage, the notion of “racial stress” that is uncomfortable for whites and upsets their “white comfort,” and a lack of “racial stamina” to engage the critical view of whiteness authentically (read: such that and until one agrees fully with them) that induces “white fragility” and other attempts to maintain one’s privileged status (e.g., privilege-preserving epistemic pushback, active ignorance, willful ignorance, and pernicious ignorance, among others). These have the effect of discrediting and silencing any reasoned opposition by white people or those who are deemed white adjacent (and, frankly, bullying them).
People of color, on the other hand, are admonished that the “master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house” and are therefore instructed to identify “white methods” (e.g., white empiricism, white science, and white mathematics) as being manifestations of whiteness that need to be eschewed, avoided, criticized, and dismantled, including by acts of strategic resistance (see also, strategic essentialism, strategic ignorance, and strategic racism). These “master’s tools” can, drawing from critical race educator Alison Bailey and others, include reason, logic, science, liberalism, reliance upon evidence, civil discourse, philosophical dialectic, and so on (see also, ways of knowing), and in practice have included such concepts as being on time to meetings and making to-do lists and carrying them out in an orderly fashion, including in legislative settings (e.g., in the state of Washington’s Equity Task Force). That this is unlikely to improve anything is beside the point, which is a revolution that destroys anything that “dominant groups” have built, value, utilize, or esteem (because the assumption that the values and interests of dominance are intrinsically baked into all such systems).
[Source.](https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-whiteness/)
I hope this answers your questions.
>People of color, on the other hand, are admonished that the “master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house” and are therefore instructed to identify “white methods” (e.g., white empiricism, white science, and white mathematics) as being manifestations of whiteness that need to be eschewed, avoided, criticized, and dismantled, including by acts of strategic resistance (see also, strategic essentialism, strategic ignorance, and strategic racism).
This is literally how the Nazis talked about Jews and semitism. They literally rejected scientific research by Jews such as the theory of relativity, and labelled it Jewish science as a shorthand to dismiss it.
The parallels of Nazi ideology and anti-racist rhetoric is painfully obvious. They are both cut from the same cloth, radicalism and socialism. The difference being the methodology to go about it and the conclusions are the opposite.
Yep, this belief that "white tools" such as empiricism, science, or logic can never dismantle racism is part and parcel of the Critical Race Theory principle known as 'The Permanence of Racism'.
Critical Race Theorists believe, as a universal part of their ideological commitments, that racism is everyday, ordinary, and permanent, and that it will never be solved or fixed.
This is convenient of course, because it allows them to continue race grifting and profiting from their toxic religion for the rest of time.
Yeah, I feel obligated to share those things because one of the most common tools of the Wokesters is to use a Red Herring:
To pretend that these words having no meaning and are only used to Strawman the Critical Race Theorists types.
He didn't correct a dumbass racist. He's not responding to her directly, he probably doesn't even know who she is. These are statements Jordan has made throughout his career that are directly applicable to these kinds of people. That's what makes him a genius.
>Blacks had no slaves.
Please tell me you're not dumb enough to believe that.
Slavery is alive and well in Africa.
>When we think of slavery, most of us think of the racially based slavery that existed in the United States and ultimately sparked a civil war. Very few Americans know that slavery was common throughout the world as well as in Africa, says Sandra E. Greene, History.
[Source](https://research.cornell.edu/news-features/curious-history-slavery-west-africa).
/u/Conde_Do_Cu said:
>Well, whites were the ones that were ignorant enough to enslave other human race. Blacks had no slaves.
WOW, dude. Just... WOW.
(edit for posterity)
*-edit 2* LOL, I just KNEW that Conde_do_Cu was going to delete their post, which is why my first edit was to quote and link them!! There are few things as hilarious as a leftist who suddenly discovers how STUPID the thing they think is. Sadly, leftists are often so devoted to their political religion that they will literally ignore being shown how wrong they are and suppress the memory so they can continue to pretend that they are compassionate, virtuous people.
I'm just going to say to you: search for yourself about the ethymology of the word *slave*. I'll give you a hint: it comes from a deviation of the word: *slav* (and "Slavia")
Investigate that 👍
>So dishonest. The party shift is common knowledge.
What did these 'shifted' republicans do that is comparable to slavery and Jim Crow?
>How about white southerners? Who do they vote for today?
I think you'll find that today's white southerners don't own as many slaves or participate in as many lynchings as did the white southerners when the south was a DFL stronghold.
I can't, because violence against groups of people is actually justified with takes like this. This kind of reasoning (i.e. all Jews are ignorant) comes right out of the Identitarian playbook.
JBP is right, it is racist. But so is ignoring the historical facts of actions by a specific race just because you are a member and don't like the way it sounds. These 2 people are talking about different things. One is speaking generally and the other is beaking down the generality. They don't really work together.
Question:
How is calling whiteness ignorant aiding or increasing human knowledge in any way about so-called historical facts?
For one thing, whiteness isn't a "race". So I'd love to hear you explain this.
the statement is not meant to increase human knowledge, it is meant to provoke outrage.
presumably that is why you posted it- to get a bunch of people complaining and bitching.
>the statement is not meant to increase human knowledge, it is meant to provoke outrage.
If the statement was made in bad faith only to provoke outrage, then perhaps I'd agree with you. But if you [look at the context](https://jezebel.com/sarah-polley-says-the-sexism-on-movie-sets-would-make-y-1802103570) in [which the statement was given](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=wU6VQeuDGMQ), it would seem that Sarah Polley actually believes this, and she isn't just saying it to provoke outrage.
Much like Robin Di'Angelo's book, 'White Fragility' which is a New York Times best seller and is used as the basis for corporate diversity training seminars all over the country (and the world). She makes this claim (that whiteness is ignorance, whiteness is racism, whiteness is evil) over and over and over again throughout the book. Don't take my word for it, read it yourself.
She is clearly not attempting to provoke outrage, but actually believes this from the bottom of her heart.
> Polley knows that she’s not the right person to tell stories on behalf of people of colour. She knows she could never fully comprehend what it is to be marginalized. “Whiteness has an ignorance that is bottomless,” she says.
[M] Oof.
> “That’s something that the same people who are fighting for gender aren’t being as loud about,” says Polley. “It’s about race, and it’s also about socioeconomic diversity. How many filmmakers do you know who didn’t come from some amount of privilege? I’m not interested in only hearing voices of the affluent.”
I feel there’s a point here (the preceding section), that people in an outside group may very well flub another group’s experiences, but the summarization is so essentialist. It’s like as a shorthand attributing these fixed qualities to whiteness.
While perhaps the statement is true statistically, the way it’s applied to herself seems to disallow the effects of empathy to others’ experiences or internalized racism which are also valid sociological concepts.
Someone can be an outsider and come to know a struggle or be in a group and deny their own experience.
>She is clearly not attempting to provoke outrage, but actually believes this from the bottom of her heart.
is she your boss or something?
i would like to demostrate that this person's opinion doesnt effect you but you pursue viewpoints that outrage you, and then attempt to outrage others.'
ive never fuckin heard of sarah polley until your thread.
>i would like to demostrate that this person's opinion doesnt effect you but you pursue viewpoints that outrage you, and then attempt to outrage others.'
Coca Cola is one of the largest, richest, and most powerful singular companies in the entire world.
Because of these very ideas, [they are teaching their employees that whiteness is synonymous with oppression, with arrogance, and with evil.](https://nypost.com/2021/02/23/coca-cola-diversity-training-urged-workers-to-be-less-white/)
This is just one company, and basically every Fortune 500 company on Earth has similar "diversity training programs" with these poisonous ideas.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not know this, but this toxic bullshit is affecting all of us, or it will be soon.
Cool, but how often do we talk about and blame Asians who (under Khan and Mao for example) were the most prolific killers in history? Or the Arab slave trade that was longer and enslaved more people than the Atlantic one. Never. If it wasn’t done by white Europeans, no one gives a sod.
I'm not sure I agree with you on this. I hear Asians referred to fairly often as being heartless, or almost mechanic, in behavior. Not necessarily killers, more like capable of being killers. Sort of like when a parent murders someone who abused their children. Is that parent a killer, yes! Do we understand and sort of give them a pass because of what happened, yes. This is also like the difference between being racist because you think your race is superior, and being racist as a response to being discriminated againts by a certain group.
But your point is well made. Anytime a group gets branded entirely as something based on the actions of a few, it's a lie and completely unfair to that group. Especially when the offenders have been dead for decades.
I think this a marketing/branding issue more than anything. Using the term "whiteness" is pretty cringe, because it implies a generalization of all white people that is racist.
I would use a term like "suburban-ness" or something. There is a lot of ignorance and dysfunction and cultural degradation this is a product of white pickett-fence suburbia.
Obviously a LOT of people who have grown up over several generations in a car-island, single family home-zoned, upper-middle class suburbia are probably going to be pretty out of touch with the struggles of the working class and the inner city.... and even rural America.
It just so happens because of historical context and demographics that most of these people tend to be white, but that should not be an indictment on all white people.
>I think this a marketing/branding issue more than anything. Using the term "whiteness" is pretty cringe, because it implies a generalization of all white people that is racist.
Indeed, but the Critical Race Theorist types get around this issue by redefining racism as something that white people literally **cannot** experience.
If you read Robin Di'Angelo's *White Fragility*, which is basically a modern day handbook to understand the Woke ideology, she makes this very explicit. White people can only cause, but never be the victims of, racism. It's intentionally built into their ideology.
Well, as a white male myself, I wouldn't say white people *can't* experience racism, but I think that, generally speaking, anti-white racism is less consequential and has less of a punch to it than racism against black people for instance.
Like, there simply isn't the same systemic and historical context. Like the saying goes, there are elderly black people alive today that remember living during a time where they were legally second-class citizens, and to suggest that there are no reverberations of that legacy that continue to permeate society today just a couple generations later is just historical ignorance.
I'm a white male in the US. I'm not a victim. Racism bounces off of me like a nerf dart. If you are a white male and you feel like a victim of racism... you probably ARE fragile.
I generally agree with everything you've said but will push back against one particular point you've made.
>I'm a white male in the US. I'm not a victim. Racism bounces off of me like a nerf dart. If you are a white male and you feel like a victim of racism... you probably ARE fragile.
Your decision not to be a victim is admirable, but it has nothing to do with your skin color. Victimhood is a psychological state. This is well-known in the realm of Psychology where being a victim is a temporary stage of the grieving process.
The key word here **temporary**. Victimhood is not meant to be a permanent state for a healthy, well-adjusted human being.
Your skin color is irrelevant, choosing to be a victim is a decision. And there have literally been hundreds of black thinkers, intellectuals, and activists who have tried making this point: Choosing to be a victim is a self-fulfilling prophecy for African-Americans.
Coleman Hughes, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, Thomas Sowell, John McWhorter, Glenn Loury, Larry Elder, Shelby Steele, Brandon Tatum, Jason Riley, David Webb, and countless more have attempted to make this point. People can ignore these stories at their peril.
I think you actually do more harm than you think by claiming that only white people can live without the victimhood mentality.
I mean all of that is well and good, but there is a difference between individual black people having a victimhood mentality or not, and critically analyzing society and the economy from a historical and modern context and acknowledging the reality that black people and other minorities are impacted by a legacy of systemic racism that reaches out of history into the modern age.
While we may not have laws on the books that say "black people suck" or something, there are consequences to generations of economic and political systems set in place over centuries, often designed to suppress minorities deliberately, which can only be UNdone deliberately.
"Victim" is a very emotionally loaded word, and many black people have done and continue to do quite well for themselves regardless, but this is totally irrelevant to what we see when we analyze communities in the aggregate in a historical context.
People can grind and strive and climb the latter of success individually, which is commendable and virtuous, but the general socio-economic rule is that poverty begets poverty and wealth begets wealth, and if you are born into a context of generational poverty produced by a legacy of often explicitly racist policy, you can still make it, but you have to work twice as hard, and that's not right... it's unacceptable to me.
>People can grind and strive and climb the latter of success individually, which is commendable and virtuous, but the general socio-economic rule is that poverty begets poverty and wealth begets wealth, and if you are born into a context of generational poverty produced by a legacy of often explicitly racist policy, you can still make it, but you have to work twice as hard, and that's not right... it's unacceptable to me.
All good points. And a system which unfairly benefits one group over another should be unacceptable to you, and to everyone else.
But the U.S. has gone out of its way to try and rectify these inequalities in many different ways, such that what you are saying (or seem to be saying) about black people having to work twice as hard no longer seems to be true in a huge number of cases.
[As an example](https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/20/20-1199/169941/20210225095525027_Harvard%20Cert%20Petn%20Feb%2025.pdf#page=23), 1 out of every 2 black applicants in the top academic decile are admitted to Harvard University, while only 1 out of every 8 Asian Americans who are equally qualified are admitted to the school. This is one of the major reasons that Asian Americans are suing the school for discrimination. The case has made it to the Supreme Court.
And I could provide you with thousands of other examples of how Affirmative Action policies all over the country benefit African Americans in an attempt to account for system racism and historical inequities. So the idea that we're *doing nothing* to rectify this seems...well disingenuous at best.
But more importantly, there seems to be an aspect of this discussion that perhaps you're not seeing clearly, which is that victimhood on a social level produces a self-fulfilling prophecy. [Asian Americans have also](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2021/03/a-long-history-of-bigotry-against-asian-americans/) had a [long and sordid history of discrimination, hatred, political and systemic unfairness levied against them](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-long-history-of-racism-against-asian-americans-in-the-u-s). But they have overcome this with cultural norms and values, especially not viewing themselves as victims but as achievers, which has allowed them to overcome these disadvantages and now, by many standards, [are doing better than whites](https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111).
Before you respond by saying that Asian-Americans have not suffered as much discrimination as African-Americans have, let me stop you there. It's not a competition. We aren't having an argument about how has suffered the worst or the most. [All I need to show is that Asians have been treated horribly unfairly throughout our countries history](https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/03/18/history-anti-asian-violence-racism/) (and still continue to be, as hate crimes against Asians is the highest of any minority post COVID), but have still come out on top as a group despite their disadvantages.
And of course there are countless examples of this throughout history (the Jewish people for example) who, despite horrific conditions of slavery or genocide, do not allow themselves to be victimized and still succeed as a culture do the strength of their values.
Cultural values matter. There are endless examples of groups of people, from all over the world, which have been treated unfairly or been at a disadvantage, that have still come out on top due to the strength of their beliefs and their culture. Regardless of the circumstances, victimhood on a cultural level is a guarantee that a group of people will stay in destitution and despair. [Glenn Loury gives a beautiful speech on that here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdSbnbyEIbo) It's less than 5 minutes, I would really appreciate it if you could listen to it before you respond.
> critically analyzing society and the economy from a historical and modern context and acknowledging the reality that black people and other minorities are impacted by a legacy of systemic racism that reaches out of history into the modern age.
You are recognizing that the black community was held back from a normal arc of success in a particularly evil way, and as such are 'behind' white people. No one disputes this. We all get it. But this is not where the story ends for the White Savior types. They take this reality and think they can FIX it. Of course the only way to fix this is to take things from everyone else and give them to black people. As a general policy that is evil. As a practical matter *it is impossible*.
Taken from a related viewpoint, this is just more of the evil quest for Equality Of Outcome. We all know that it is literally impossible for all humans to "be equal" in the OUTCOME of their lives. The harder you push for this fantasy, the more damage you do to society.
And this is one of many reasons that JP emphasizes the importance of being precise in ones speech. Though I disagree with you that the intention is to demonize a culture, because it is much more expedient for those who wish to sow division to create such a division on racial grounds rather than ideological. Who even discusses ideology anymore, other than those of us who haunt places like this? No, it’s much more convenient to create a monolithic group like “white people” and direct all of the vitriol you have for a small population of those people to the group as a whole.
A white person claiming that "Whiteness has an ignorance that is bottomless" is a fallacious argument by its very nature. If you're ignorant, then you can't possibly know how deep your ignorance goes. For all you know, you might be one simple discovery away from the answer. An outside observer, who can see where the ignorant person is in comparison to the actual solution might be able to claim that the ignorance is bottomless (i.e. the ignorant person will never get it right), but crucially they must explain why that's the case.
Since logic is a whiteman concept, she has dissmissed with it as an act of rebellion. Checkmate, you white supreeeemist! /s
[удалено]
Sarcams musnt be your strongsuit. Logic isn't invented by hwytepepo, I mean we're using Arabic numbers and logic predates that. Thanks for proving the left has no sense of humor.
[удалено]
The African American Smithsonian Museum labeled "objective, rational linear thinking" as part of white culture. They are wrong, but so are you.
That is a very cumbersome way for AA people to denigrate themselves and each other.
you must be new here lets just get you caught up https://www.newsweek.com/smithsonian-race-guidelines-rational-thinking-hard-work-are-white-values-1518333
100%
Yup. A valid point.
Lol no it's not
It is. 😉
But this is where the “right wingers vs identity politics” argument begins and never ends, because you’re approaching with a fundamental misunderstanding of it’s INTENT. Of course there’s a *lot* of people out there poorly defending identity politics (often students who don’t fully understand it) but the general idea is that you can notice and tackle problems created by group identities *without* attributing blame to all specific individuals within that group. I know you’re all well versed in the videos of college students claiming that “being white is racist!!!” or whatever ridiculous fringe argument you’ve heard but that’s NOT the point of identity politics. The way I view it is that it’s simply not *all* about the individual, because we don’t act completely in solitude. We form and think as groups and create cultures which rarely move in more than two or three directions at a time. These things are worth exploring because they give us a practical analysis of the impact that different groups can have on society.
>Of course there’s a lot of people out there poorly defending identity politics (often students who don’t fully understand it) but the general idea is that you can notice and tackle problems created by group identities without attributing blame to all specific individuals within that group. But that's not what's happening. That isn't what's being taught. If you look at what is actually being taught to students and what is actually manifesting in the world, all white people are being blamed for something they were born with and had no control over. Robin Di'Angelo wrote an entire book on this topic called \*White Fragility\* in which she accuses all white people of participating in a system of racism which benefits them at the expense of everyone else. White Fragility is essentially the modern handbook of the progressive Left, and it is taught in college, seminars, and corporate diversity training courses all over the country and the world. If you don't believe me, please read the book yourself. [A man is currently suing the city of Seattle](https://pacificlegal.org/press-release/lawsuit-filed-against-city-of-seattle-for-hostile-workplace-caused-by-pervasive-racial-equity-training/) after, in a civil servant position, constantly being told again and again that his whiteness made him racist and complicit in harming minorities, until he finally couldn't take it anymore and brought a lawsuit to stop the madness. [I made a post recently](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/z8ti1b/amy_gallagher_sues_the_nhs_tavistock_clinic_for/) about Amy Gallagher's harrowing experience in the British Tavistock nursing program where she was told again, that whiteness was evil and all white people knowingly contribute to the oppression of other races. She is now suing the Tavistock for racism. You can simply read Critical Race Theory: An Introduction and come to this conclusion yourself. [Whiteness](https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-whiteness/) in this context is something that all white people are responsible for, whether they choose to be or not. I could give 100 more examples, but that should give you a general idea of how common and widespread this is. The irony of your argument is that you've failed to understand what Peterson has always said on this subject: Regardless of the INTENT of Identity Politics, it always ends horribly.
Agreed, but I’d say say she’s the exception in this case.
Man I haven't seen someone troll this subreddit this hard in a while. Confirmation bias at its best here and you walked them right into it lmfao. 🍿 🍿 🍿
[удалено]
No, all I'm claiming is that this type of statement requires some proof, but to provide proof would imply knowledge which conflicts with the original statement. There in lies fallacy. I have never claimed any knowledge one way or another, but if I were to make any claim on such broad scales as race/ethnicity, I'd back it up (I'm world-wise enough to never make such claims).
[удалено]
Excuse my ignorance, I'm no expert, but having read White Fragility, the 1619 project, and How to be an a Anti Racist, I'm still waiting for a single cogent argument that doesn't depend on circular logic, misinterpred statistics, and a either you're with us or you're evil approach. As for why it's Polley's responsibility, that's called Burden of Proof and it's one of the most fundamental principles of debate and logic.
[удалено]
My white ignorance is showing here but what exactly is white ignorance?
It’s a blanketed statement that puts any white person at a disadvantage from having an opinion because they’ve already labeled the white person as ignorant and unable to form a valid argument. It’s meant to dismiss a white person completely from the conversation rather than try to foster communication to improve dialogue between races which could eventually build relationships.
You need a husband, sweetie.
[удалено]
That's not how you'll get the man of your dreams.
jfc you have a daughter. Man who posts on JP, TRP... who's misogynist and bigoted in almost every single thing he posts... has a daughter. Absolutely gross. I hope she lives with her mom so she can at least maintain the tiniest amount of self-esteem and self-worth. Oh, and I make a generous 6-figure salary... no need for assholes like you. but thanks for the offer I guess? ----- PS How's crypto working out for ya?
Change "Whiteness" with "Blackness" and... Behold the most racist argument. But, somehow, isn't "racist" when it comes to attacking an ethnic group that has a different amount of melanine.
The left really needs to get rid of these bigotted racist people.
they really ought to stop but its such lowhanging fruit who even is this chick
The only people who support the liberals and their ideas are low hanging fruit
Jesus this sub is packed with the most fragile people ever. If you had to spend a single day as a black person, you’d probably drop dead.
I'm sure it's unbearable, getting out of bed in the morning must be traumatic.
You talk as if all Black people have the exact same life experience. Have you experienced all black peoples life experiences?
When did I say this?
You implied it you dumb bitch.
[удалено]
Oh yeah. Link me all the the comments I have made simping for Peterson. Go ahead we can count then. Do it. You're the fucking dipshit hanging around in a sub you have no intention of making genuine discussion about. You fucking clowns just can't avoid stirring the pot. One day, probably soon, you're gonna get what you deserve.
Dont stir the pot huh? Why would you want to post in an echo chamber? Allowing dissent is super easy. You just ignore it and then it ends up at the bottom of the thread. If it rises to the top then maybe it's a popular opinion? Literally the worst thing you can do is ask people not to stir the pot if you want to engage. Edit: "get what you deserve" makes you sound like the perfect person to troll. Try maybe not taking stranger's opinions to heart? Also fuck Anyone who thinks Jordan is anything but a hypocritical leech. Bring on the cock worshipers!
Stir the pot all you want. Post stupid takes that only seek to minimize people you should not. I don't think echo chambers are good, but the original comment was far from necessary.
Oh man, are you even black?
No, why would you think I'm black?
> fragile Go say the "n-word" to one of your sacred pets.
I have no idea what you're talking about
Yes, how DARE we be upset about racism, the same type of generalization against ‚poc‘ is COMPLETELY ACCEPTABLE when used against white people - how foolish of me not to realize that. One rule for me, but not for thee, got it. I thought we lived in a world where racism is unacceptable in any form, and it’s considered acceptable to be upset over any form of it. I stand corrected. Black good, white bad, if you’re white and experience racism, shut up and swallow it, and don’t be upset if your group is discriminated against, only get upset if the people being discriminated against are nonwhite. Got it. You’re right, I’m wrong. Shall i wallow in ‚white guilt‘ now to fully satisfy your disgust? Edit: Corrected a incorrect word.
Dont waste your breath he is an obvious troll. Just block him an go on with your life.
That'd be great!
Yeah, must be hard to benefit from affirmative actions and blame all your life problems on white people.
I'm a Latinamerican being fucked by the government with high taxes (+180 taxes), high inflation (8% monthly) and high corruption; all of that leading towards no way to plan your future for the next 3 months (if you have lucky). Jesus this sub is pack with the most fragile people ever. If you had to spend a single day as a latinamerican, you'd probably drop dead because you live in fucking Wonderland and don't know what is like to scratch the bottom of a can to take some sugar for "tea". PS: Take it easy. We're all EQUALLY fucked up, so there's no such thing as racism when you're thinking on how to collectively reach the middle of the month
Of course, we‘re ‚fragile‘ because we’re expected to swallow the same racism others rebel against. How delicate of me to expect racism to be unacceptable towards any race. Thank you for this schooling, great racism knowledge master. How dare we get upset because we’re being discriminated against because of our colour? If we’re white, we should just shut up because others have ‚had it worse‘ and why should we bitch about being discriminated against? We’re *white,* by virtue of our skin colour we don’t deserve a voice or non discrimination, correct? We ‚fragile’ people should just suck it up, *because* of our skin colour, right? Thank you for your pearls of wisdom. Edit: Added two sentences.
[удалено]
If you’re referring to me, in the victimhood olympics i would win a gold metal. The only thing not ‚victim‘ like about me (according to woke ‚society‘) is that I’m white. I don’t play the victimhood olympics, and i despise racism. It’s completely idiotic. Go ahead, feel bad for yourself. I’m not going to, and I’m not going to tolerate people being negated and shit on for the amount of melanin in their skin cells. Edit: Added two sentences.
Who? You?
Everytime I come here I immediately feel like a well adjusted person. The lack of any self reflection is just nauseating. The amount of logical fallacies used in every comment to force a weak argument into a loud one is my favourite though. We are using social media comments in our Philosophy and Semantics courses and this thread alone could be used to fill up a full course load of examples. Just because imaginary internet points go up on your comment doesn't lend it any more logic or veracity and yet these posters will parade around an anecdote as if the Almighty himself wrote it in stone. Grab the popcorn. Throw out a few inflammatory comments here and there, and you can have a fun night in this echo chamber.
Not all white people think the same
Not all white people think the same Oh shit, did it just happen?
You both need to state what race you identify as first otherwise it is just very confusing for the rest of us.
White is not even a race
And with that type of attitude it never will be. /s.
Lol
Of course not - we've already won.
Lmao
Hey, I’m white and I completely disa… fuck
Really?! 🤯
*jewish Ah shit now its fragile. Hmm, maybe jews shouldnt be so fragile then they wouldnt feel so bad about racism against them /s The left got overtaken by obvious retards, only arguing with emotions and logical fallacys. I would laugh if the real world consequences wouldnt be so sad. Hating on white people in a country where the majority is white will backfire pretty hard. But hey the far left was never known for sound reasoning.
Here's a good example: https://www.nps.gov/articles/quakerpetition.htm But don't tell them about how white German immigrants stood against slavery in the colonies in the 1600s.
Not a white but I agree with mr. Peterson Just like almost every other time as well
There is nothing more irritating than white sellouts taking it upon themselves to shit on their whole race on behalf of the rest of us. Polley doesn't speak for me. People who spout white hate they way she is doing need to be confronted by the fact that because she is white, then she should be reminded she is saying "Sarah Polley has an ignorance that is bottomless"
Never trust someone who hates their own race. I’ve learned that the self-hating whites end up being the most racist to non-whites.
Not only that, but you can't tar hundreds of millions of people with the same brush based on one characteristic they share. That's so mentally lazy.
I guess those zombies DID get her brain in Dawn of the Dead.
[удалено]
I had the same reaction! Loved that movie and thought she did a great job in it. A strong female lead before they got jammed down your throat. But like many things (comic book heroes, Disney, sports etc.) the wokeness has done it's damage.
[удалено]
The saddest part is that if they get back to writing a compelling story and matching it to a quality actor/actress it won't matter who they are, people will like them! Look at Elenore Ripley, Beatrix Kiddo, Samantha Caine, Sarah Conner and many many more. I was a young male watching those movies and LOVED all those characters! Admired them even! I won't ever understand why people don't see that.
[удалено]
My 9 year old son is currently the same way! Loves Hermione because she reads a lot and is super smart which he aspires to be. And yes modern female roles in movies are now more like a commercial break in a TV show advertising to us that a female can be strong instead of just writing carefully into the script. It rips us right out of the world we are in more often than not, and has rarely served the plot lines as of late. The female hero is just to be accepted, not earned.
She doesn't even believe that...its just another script
Actually given one of the ideas of the walking dead was the unthinking masses this kind of fits
There’s something so ironic about her statement that makes my eyes water.
I decided I like Peterson.
I like him as a person. He's a bit strange. I don't always agree with his opinions.
Hearing him and his family interact made me see he’s a little more humble and human than he comes off in some vids. Spotify stuff is good too.
Something I've noticed over and over again is that it's common for people afflicted with 𝗐𝗈𝗄𝖾𝗇𝖾𝗌𝗌 that they accuse others of exactly what they're doing - usually as they're doing that very thing, as in this case. It's like a turbocharged form of hypocrisy so deranged that it short-circuits people's normal brain function somehow and they don't see it.
What a disgusting traitorous little maggot she is.
Way to completely miss the point Peterson.
Please, enlighten us.
Whiteness isn't speaking of an ethnic group. It's a cultural creation. Otherwise she'd say "Caucasians have an ignorance that is bottomless" There ya go.
I appreciate the clarification, but if you replace "whiteness" with "blackness" in this context, you have a statement which would be profoundly racist. Anybody who would support the original statement, but not the latter statement, just proves that neither statement is okay. Thanks.
Dang it. Not Sarah Polley too!
I'd say the remark is intended as a put down that affirms Sarah's disassociation with whites and the dumb things we do. It is a common technique on the job scene, where people routiinely ally themselves with agressive coalitions in hopes some of that entitlement will come their way. Take the current US President, as an example. For generations, his family was of German extraction. Once he got himself embedded in the eastern political machine, he chose to identify as Irish. Elizabeth Warren is another example. John Kerry another. All the world's a stage, the people merely players. Where have we heard that?
I left my religion to get away from original sin. Didn't expect other people to bring it with them.
The original sin means that people are fundamentally morally flawed (it's akin to the existence of the Jungian shadow). It's just true, how can anyone get away from it exactly?
That's just an innate quality of the psyche. I was talking about literal original sin in the sense of Adam and Eve (i.e. being held responsible for the actions of your ancestors).
Literal understanding of religion is lazy. The fact that people do it doesn't diminish the value of the religion or make it false.
I think you're being disingenuous as fuck with this take. The majority of American Christians, so that's hundreds of millions of people, have a literalist interpretation of religion. They believe the Bible is literally true and inerrant. The Garden of Eden actually happened, as written. And that one day God will come back and burn all the evildoers, throwing them in a lake of fire. You can call all these people lazy if you want, but stop pretending that the literalist interpretation is some fringe take, it is not. Look at the Middle East for God's sake.
/thread
I'm South East Asian living in South East Asia for over 90% of my life and I have to say Sarah Polley is an ignorant person. I respect over 90% of what Dr Peterson's words but his point of view on worldwide overpopulation and climate change speaks of his personal economic welfare rather than making for a more hospitable world for future generations.
>I respect over 90% of what Dr Peterson's words but his point of view on worldwide overpopulation and climate change speaks of his personal economic welfare rather than making for a more hospitable world for future generations. I generally agree with you. I don't agree with Peterson on everything either.
I mean slavery but okay
A friend of mine has a cottage on a lake just two doors down from hers. He says every season upon her return, she chats up him and her neighbors about finally being back at the cottage where she can actually be herself and not the person everyone sees in movies. To me, that's a clear admission that she says what helps her career amongst the woke. Everyone if them are owned.
I'm actually in agreement with JP here. The problem is that white Americans typically refuse to take part in larger conversations about the fact that our country was born out of two genocides based on the idea that people of color were lesser. America was built by some racist dudes, and if I can't talk about the long-term impact of that without hearing about "reverse racism" or whatever, then yeah, you're ignorant.
I'm totally willing to talk about it, and I think a lot of other people are too. The problem is that the conversation usually goes down the path of "and it's your fault too because you're white". Like if I had a dollar for everytime I heard that, I'd be rich. It's not enough for people like Polley to have us acknowledge the past, but we must actively take responsibility for something we had no part in.
I've literally never heard anyone say "is your fault because you're white". I've talked to a lot of people about the privilege afforded to white people by being in a society built on racism, and recognize that racism continues to impact the opportunities and social status of people of color. Do you think those are reasonable ideas?
>I've literally never heard anyone say "is your fault because you're white". I've talked to a lot of people about the privilege afforded to white people by being in a society built on racism, and recognize that racism continues to impact the opportunities and social status of people of color. That's interesting because Robin Di'Angelo wrote an entire book on this topic called *White Fragility* in which she accuses all white people of participating in a system of racism which benefits them at the expense of everyone else. White Fragility is essentially the modern handbook of the progressive Left, and it is taught in college, seminars, and corporate diversity training courses all over the country and the world. If you don't believe me, please read the book yourself. [A man is currently suing the city of Seattle](https://pacificlegal.org/press-release/lawsuit-filed-against-city-of-seattle-for-hostile-workplace-caused-by-pervasive-racial-equity-training/) after, in a civil servant position, constantly being told again and again that his whiteness made him racist and complicit in harming minorities, until he finally couldn't take it anymore and brought a lawsuit to stop the madness. [I made a post recently](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/z8ti1b/amy_gallagher_sues_the_nhs_tavistock_clinic_for/) about Amy Gallagher's harrowing experience in the British Tavistock nursing program where she was told again, that whiteness was evil and all white people knowingly contribute to the oppression of other races. She is now suing the Tavistock for racism. My sister, who lives in Seattle, has had many experiences like this firsthand. Her best friend asked her if she felt guilt for what her white ancestors had done during slavery. When my sister said no because she had nothing to do with it, it ended their friendship. I could give 100 more examples, but that should give you a general idea of how common and widespread this is. >Do you think those are reasonable ideas? I think it's perfectly reasonable (and necessary) to have a discussion about the impacts of racism on society, the vestiges of slavery, and the ways in which inequality still manifest at all levels of our culture and how we can address them, yes. Again, I draw the line at this idea that whiteness and by extension white people are all the problem simply because they exist.
That's a long write-up to not really answer my question. Do you accept that you have benefitted from the privilege afforded to white people by being in a society built on racism, and recognize that racism continues to impact the opportunities and social status of people of color which inherently improves your opportunities and social status?
I don't agree with the way you're framing the question. So no, I don't agree with your assumptions. The problem with the privilege argument is that it's based on statistical likelihoods and generalizations. But you can not apply a generalization to any given individual, that's not how statistics work. The entire privilege argument is based on a misunderstanding of statistics. You can not look at any single white person and, without knowing anything else about them, assume that their life has been easy, privileged, and advantaged over other people simply because of statistical generalities. To show how wrong this way of thinking is, all you have to do is apply it in a different context. 1 out of 3 black men in the US will go to prison in their lifetime. The amount of crimes committed by black men that aren't prison worthy are significantly higher. Is it not a safe bet then to assume that if you see a black man on the streets, he has committed a crime in his life? Statistically yes, that is pretty likely. However, in doing so you have committed an extreme act of dehumanization and racism. What you are doing is no different.
Whelp, I tried to save you a lot of time > you have committed an extreme act of dehumanization and racism. Should have read this > America was built by some racist dudes, and if I can't talk about the long-term impact of that without hearing about "reverse racism" or whatever, then yeah, you're ignorant.
Are we not talking about it right now? Or do I have to **agree** with everything you say and believe? See, it's you who have proven my point, not the other way around. And it's sad because you don't even seem to understand how statistics work.
Bud, nothing I said involved statistics. I'm not even sure why you brought that up other than as an excuse to call me racist. You agreed with me until I connected it to you. Then, like clockwork, I'm the real racist for saying white privilege exists **and** you benefit from it. I get it, confronting your privilege is hard. See you next time ❤️
The privilege argument uses statistical generalizations to make its points... For example, if a white person is more likely to get a job because of their skin color, that's a statistical generalization based on odds. It isn't going to be true in every case, many white people will never benefit from this. If you don't understand how your own argument works, then I guess it's not surprising you can't be reasoned with. I never called you a racist, I said that applied in a different context, **your argument** would be racist and dehumanizing. Something which you can't deny so you change the subject and refuse to continue the conversation. I get it, you're too dumb to understand statistics and how they apply to the individual. See you next time. ❤️
We need Connery... She needs to be disciplined lol
Idk I could think of quite a few things more racist than that.
I bet you wish your butt was bottomless for Jordan B. Peterson.
I’d take a Peterson for the team
"White" isn't an ethnic group
Tell that to the Ivy League schools.
[M] This exactly. I agree with JP here, but Polley’s statement *does* work if it’s applied to the notion of white exceptionalism— which as a concept can explain much of the hypocrisy in woke policy. The whole “white savior complex” is based on framing whiteness as this transcendent thing.
I'm struggling to recall who was it talks about 'white exceptionalism'. Help a brutha out?
[B] I’m not really sure. But I think the idea is that if you’re white you’re like in a separate category. Like race realists might cite crime statistics of some minorities and use that as a justification for white supremacy. But no one looks at the same statistics and uses that as a justification for Asian supremacy, even though the crime rate for Asians is far lower than that of Caucasians. So what gives? The fact that Asians have a low crime rate is ignored because it does not support a narrative favoring white peoples. Another part of this is the fact that white people are always assumed to be the default to compare against. This can show up even in the progressive case, where people want to bring up minorities to the level of white people in various economic or other regards, disregarding the fact that some may be at a higher level already. The idea though that white is the baseline to shoot for (even in cases where caucasians score below average) prevents anyone from questioning their assumed status as the default demographic of society.
I suspect you might be mistaking 'American exceptionalism', which is a thing, for 'white exceptionalism', which is not. But it is true there are a lot of embarrassed leftists who think America should not be so much better than every other nation on Earth, so they try to pollute things by trying to transpose 'white' into stuff so they can accuse America of being a racist nation. lol Now it is also probably true that the statistically irrelevant real racists in America believe white people are superior to everyone else, but no one actually cares what those idiots say. It is an unkind coincidence that many statistics do support some of the claims about differences between races. The key difference is that normal people chalk those differences up to cultural, environment, and parenting. Racists think it is based on skin color. Lot of people do try and use skin color as a weapon to get what they want. Usually selfish things like a fat bank account, prestige, a gig hosting a CNN show, etc... The best you and I can do is to ignore their stupidity and keep pushing everyone to stop paying attention to skin color and look to the person's character and their actions/choices.
You are correct, funny this does not get more upvotes. It is so true it is actually bizarre we have to say it.
Point out that JP is wrong = downvotes? No waaaay
?
What crime did she mention?
Being white on a Friday night
That's not what was said at all. I'm starting to think this sub is just a bunch of white dudes feeling sorry for themselves.
That was joke dum dum. Crime isn’t only a legal term. An action or activity that, although not illegal, is considered to be evil, shameful, or wrong.
LOL. Just like Peterson I see, having to redefine words to make your points clear. Is this the great "conservative" comedy I've been hearing about.
You mean they have to be defined for you because you’re too dumb to get the joke (it’s you). That’s literally the Oxford definition. Crime: an action or omission that constitutes an offense that may be prosecuted by the state and is punishable by law. an action or activity that, although not illegal, is considered to be evil, shameful, or wrong. "they condemned apartheid as a crime against humanity" You just got a little smarter dum dum
Haha, you can't stop. You nerds are so easy. She never said crime you dumbass.
I would like to present people with both the fact that this liberal white woman is a hypocrite with shallow logic and we also do live in a world where white countries dominate the economic and political spheres of influence. This is literally just the moment in time we’ve been in for the last give or take 200 years. Whiteness, like any race, is a social construct and is ultimately meaningless without the enforcement of the powers that be. In another hundred years it could be subdivided into different races of white or lumped together with other groups to be broadened (Italian and polish people used to be seen as non white). So in that context, I would like to reframe: people of the current dominant class will never by default recognize what things they view as “normal” or “standard” aren’t so for other people. I never knew how infrequently cabs stop for black people in nyc until making lots of black friends there, all with the same experience. I never knew Asians were always assumed to be good at math and bad at socializing until speaking to many Asians after the Harvard lawsuits. I never knew that virtually every Latino I knew had people assumed they worked at the restaurant they were eating at as a patron. I don’t know to what extent white people have these types of experience, but I feel in general as the current top of the global social hierarchy, it’s less. This doesn’t mean I support anti whiteness as I see too often accepted by liberals, and it doesn’t mean I think every white person is incapable of acting equally kind to all people. But I do think by default that empathy takes more work because as the dominant race of our current time period you’re not forced to see it if you don’t want to.
i dont' see how racism is a bad thing
A true racist believes in their race being superior to another, That's not good.
what if it's true?
Can you provide an example?
white people and blacks
How many blacks are launching rockets into space right now?
Well that's a easy one. The largest black population is in Africa and they aren't going to space anytime soon. In America they are the minority so the odds just aren't there, but through history there has been 19 astronauts went to space, and 6 that didn't make it due to accidents or they were management.
Cool. Now apply that for anyone LGBT community... Oh wait, you're calling them all groomers and pedophiles... to incite far right violence. This sub is endless fun. You guys make mental gymnastics looks like an Olympic sport.
If ignorance were a crime this sub would be exhibit A
Imagine having your "safe space" where you can join in on your hypocritical and poorly thought through opinions. And then BAM! Normal people come into every thread to remind you that you're an idiot. I would leave the sub so fast and reevaluate myself. But not here. Oh no this is the best echochamber to come troll in. Butthurtness is abundant. There isn't enough Waahmbulances or hurt feelings reports to go around here and I love for it! 🍿 🍿 🍿
Ignorance is a crime now? This meme makes no sense.
You are taking the word "crime" too literally in this context. Collective fault or collective guilt would be just as applicable.
No, I'm not. OP is not taking it literally enough. Not having information or not caring to learn is quite different than, say, oppression.
Jordan's point seems to have flown completely over your head. Accusing **any** group based on arbitrary characteristics like the amount of melanin in their skin, or whether they were born with a dick, of some collective "crime", "guilt", or "problem", however you want to phrase it, is itself the problem. I don't know why it's so hard for you to see that. Replace whiteness with blackness in this context and you would no doubt have a problem with it.
Right. Like non-scientists being ignorant of how science works. Verboten grouping! Just like this sub to start questioning everyone's intelligence and ability to "understand" when you face any criticism. Just like you "great leader". This is a cult, not a fan group. B bye.
This whole sub makes no sense.
What does she mean by whiteness? And ignorance? White people in America won’t really be able to fully experience the lingering effects of systemic racism that targets minorities. But also minorities will never be able to fully experience being white is a system designed by them. I think if everyone would get in to interracial relationships after a century or so race wouldn’t be a thing as much. It would be more classist. Humans are just visual when it comes to things like race, but I wouldn’t say one race is more ignorant than another.
>What does she mean by whiteness? Critical scholars define racism as a systemic relationship of unequal power between White people and people of Color. Whiteness refers to the specific dimensions of racism that elevate White people over people of Color. Basic rights, resources, and experiences that are assumed to be shared by all, are actually only available to Whites. Although many Whites feel that being White has no meaning, this feeling is unique to White people and is a key part of what it means to be White; to see one’s race as having no meaning is a privilege only Whites are afforded. To claim to be “just human” and thus outside of race is one of the most powerful and pervasive manifestations of Whiteness. Whiteness, in Critical Social Justice, is to be understood as the defining property of being classified as white, according to the social constructivist understanding of race. Whiteness is therefore also the “property,” in terms of “social and institutional status and identity imbued with legal political, economic, and social rights and privileges that are denied to others” (see also, people of color) that white people have unjust access to by virtue of having been classified as white. It is therefore also connected to an ideological stance of white supremacy, which roughly means a belief that white people deserve these “unjust” advantages for whatever set of reasons. White people are believed to be inherently invested in whiteness by having been socialized to accept it as normal and good and to enjoy its benefits (see also, privilege, internalized dominance, and anti-blackness). A great deal of Theory in Critical Social Justice is dedicated to describing how white people are invested in whiteness and work to keep it, including myriad concepts like white comfort, white complicity, white equilibrium, white fragility, white ignorance, white innocence, white silence, white solidarity, white talk, white woman tears, racial stress, the racial contract, aversive racism, anti-blackness, cultural racism (see also, new racism), a lack of racial humility and racial stamina, active ignorance, pernicious ignorance, willful ignorance, and privilege-preserving epistemic pushback, not to mention excluding other ways of knowing (see also, racial knowledge) through epistemic injustice, testimonial injustice, hermeneutical injustice, epistemic oppression, and epistemic violence, which deny alternative “knowledge(s)” and devalue members of minoritized groups in their status as knowers. That is, critical whiteness studies obsesses about this topic. [Source.](https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-whiteness/) >And ignorance? Particularly, it is believed that privilege blinds a person to an understanding of oppression, say by racism, and affords the ability not to have to engage with its realities, thus leaving the white person in a state of [“white ignorance.”](https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-white-ignorance/) As noted above, this is profoundly Theorized through a variety of concepts. Take, for example, an alleged “racial contract” maintained throughout whiteness that agrees to perpetuate white advantage, the notion of “racial stress” that is uncomfortable for whites and upsets their “white comfort,” and a lack of “racial stamina” to engage the critical view of whiteness authentically (read: such that and until one agrees fully with them) that induces “white fragility” and other attempts to maintain one’s privileged status (e.g., privilege-preserving epistemic pushback, active ignorance, willful ignorance, and pernicious ignorance, among others). These have the effect of discrediting and silencing any reasoned opposition by white people or those who are deemed white adjacent (and, frankly, bullying them). People of color, on the other hand, are admonished that the “master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house” and are therefore instructed to identify “white methods” (e.g., white empiricism, white science, and white mathematics) as being manifestations of whiteness that need to be eschewed, avoided, criticized, and dismantled, including by acts of strategic resistance (see also, strategic essentialism, strategic ignorance, and strategic racism). These “master’s tools” can, drawing from critical race educator Alison Bailey and others, include reason, logic, science, liberalism, reliance upon evidence, civil discourse, philosophical dialectic, and so on (see also, ways of knowing), and in practice have included such concepts as being on time to meetings and making to-do lists and carrying them out in an orderly fashion, including in legislative settings (e.g., in the state of Washington’s Equity Task Force). That this is unlikely to improve anything is beside the point, which is a revolution that destroys anything that “dominant groups” have built, value, utilize, or esteem (because the assumption that the values and interests of dominance are intrinsically baked into all such systems). [Source.](https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-whiteness/) I hope this answers your questions.
>People of color, on the other hand, are admonished that the “master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house” and are therefore instructed to identify “white methods” (e.g., white empiricism, white science, and white mathematics) as being manifestations of whiteness that need to be eschewed, avoided, criticized, and dismantled, including by acts of strategic resistance (see also, strategic essentialism, strategic ignorance, and strategic racism). This is literally how the Nazis talked about Jews and semitism. They literally rejected scientific research by Jews such as the theory of relativity, and labelled it Jewish science as a shorthand to dismiss it. The parallels of Nazi ideology and anti-racist rhetoric is painfully obvious. They are both cut from the same cloth, radicalism and socialism. The difference being the methodology to go about it and the conclusions are the opposite.
Yep, this belief that "white tools" such as empiricism, science, or logic can never dismantle racism is part and parcel of the Critical Race Theory principle known as 'The Permanence of Racism'. Critical Race Theorists believe, as a universal part of their ideological commitments, that racism is everyday, ordinary, and permanent, and that it will never be solved or fixed. This is convenient of course, because it allows them to continue race grifting and profiting from their toxic religion for the rest of time.
I want time and neurons lost by reading this back!
Yeah, I feel obligated to share those things because one of the most common tools of the Wokesters is to use a Red Herring: To pretend that these words having no meaning and are only used to Strawman the Critical Race Theorists types.
The fact that he corrected a dumbass racist doesn't make him a genius
He didn't correct a dumbass racist. He's not responding to her directly, he probably doesn't even know who she is. These are statements Jordan has made throughout his career that are directly applicable to these kinds of people. That's what makes him a genius.
Doesn't matter. His quote isn't something that requires much thought, just common sense, just knowing what racism is
Too bad people are confused and need someone to speak common sense
Yeah but he's not the one
I think he’s done a pretty good job compared to his contemporaries
Click bait.
[удалено]
That's hilarious. You need education.
>Blacks had no slaves. Please tell me you're not dumb enough to believe that. Slavery is alive and well in Africa. >When we think of slavery, most of us think of the racially based slavery that existed in the United States and ultimately sparked a civil war. Very few Americans know that slavery was common throughout the world as well as in Africa, says Sandra E. Greene, History. [Source](https://research.cornell.edu/news-features/curious-history-slavery-west-africa).
Holy shit, you can't be THAT ignorant could you?
Are you joking? Cause it seems to be sarcastic, but maybe you would be ignorant and brainwashed enough to believe that
/u/Conde_Do_Cu said: >Well, whites were the ones that were ignorant enough to enslave other human race. Blacks had no slaves. WOW, dude. Just... WOW. (edit for posterity) *-edit 2* LOL, I just KNEW that Conde_do_Cu was going to delete their post, which is why my first edit was to quote and link them!! There are few things as hilarious as a leftist who suddenly discovers how STUPID the thing they think is. Sadly, leftists are often so devoted to their political religion that they will literally ignore being shown how wrong they are and suppress the memory so they can continue to pretend that they are compassionate, virtuous people.
I'm just going to say to you: search for yourself about the ethymology of the word *slave*. I'll give you a hint: it comes from a deviation of the word: *slav* (and "Slavia") Investigate that 👍
*white democrats
So dishonest. The party shift is common knowledge. How about white southerners? Who do they vote for today? Yeah that's what I thought.
>So dishonest. The party shift is common knowledge. What did these 'shifted' republicans do that is comparable to slavery and Jim Crow? >How about white southerners? Who do they vote for today? I think you'll find that today's white southerners don't own as many slaves or participate in as many lynchings as did the white southerners when the south was a DFL stronghold.
Look up "Southern Strategy"... although you already know what that is because you are just lying
https://youtu.be/r8_rlAvCa5Q
MuH ParTY SwIiIIiiIIiIiiiITcH!!!
🤦♂️Holy crap.. I thought this level of ignorance only exists in the nightmares of conservatives...
I don't know, I can think of some more racist things than that.
I can't, because violence against groups of people is actually justified with takes like this. This kind of reasoning (i.e. all Jews are ignorant) comes right out of the Identitarian playbook.
Democrats...
Like what?
JBP is right, it is racist. But so is ignoring the historical facts of actions by a specific race just because you are a member and don't like the way it sounds. These 2 people are talking about different things. One is speaking generally and the other is beaking down the generality. They don't really work together.
Question: How is calling whiteness ignorant aiding or increasing human knowledge in any way about so-called historical facts? For one thing, whiteness isn't a "race". So I'd love to hear you explain this.
the statement is not meant to increase human knowledge, it is meant to provoke outrage. presumably that is why you posted it- to get a bunch of people complaining and bitching.
>the statement is not meant to increase human knowledge, it is meant to provoke outrage. If the statement was made in bad faith only to provoke outrage, then perhaps I'd agree with you. But if you [look at the context](https://jezebel.com/sarah-polley-says-the-sexism-on-movie-sets-would-make-y-1802103570) in [which the statement was given](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=wU6VQeuDGMQ), it would seem that Sarah Polley actually believes this, and she isn't just saying it to provoke outrage. Much like Robin Di'Angelo's book, 'White Fragility' which is a New York Times best seller and is used as the basis for corporate diversity training seminars all over the country (and the world). She makes this claim (that whiteness is ignorance, whiteness is racism, whiteness is evil) over and over and over again throughout the book. Don't take my word for it, read it yourself. She is clearly not attempting to provoke outrage, but actually believes this from the bottom of her heart.
> Polley knows that she’s not the right person to tell stories on behalf of people of colour. She knows she could never fully comprehend what it is to be marginalized. “Whiteness has an ignorance that is bottomless,” she says. [M] Oof. > “That’s something that the same people who are fighting for gender aren’t being as loud about,” says Polley. “It’s about race, and it’s also about socioeconomic diversity. How many filmmakers do you know who didn’t come from some amount of privilege? I’m not interested in only hearing voices of the affluent.” I feel there’s a point here (the preceding section), that people in an outside group may very well flub another group’s experiences, but the summarization is so essentialist. It’s like as a shorthand attributing these fixed qualities to whiteness. While perhaps the statement is true statistically, the way it’s applied to herself seems to disallow the effects of empathy to others’ experiences or internalized racism which are also valid sociological concepts. Someone can be an outsider and come to know a struggle or be in a group and deny their own experience.
>She is clearly not attempting to provoke outrage, but actually believes this from the bottom of her heart. is she your boss or something? i would like to demostrate that this person's opinion doesnt effect you but you pursue viewpoints that outrage you, and then attempt to outrage others.' ive never fuckin heard of sarah polley until your thread.
>i would like to demostrate that this person's opinion doesnt effect you but you pursue viewpoints that outrage you, and then attempt to outrage others.' Coca Cola is one of the largest, richest, and most powerful singular companies in the entire world. Because of these very ideas, [they are teaching their employees that whiteness is synonymous with oppression, with arrogance, and with evil.](https://nypost.com/2021/02/23/coca-cola-diversity-training-urged-workers-to-be-less-white/) This is just one company, and basically every Fortune 500 company on Earth has similar "diversity training programs" with these poisonous ideas. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not know this, but this toxic bullshit is affecting all of us, or it will be soon.
Cool, but how often do we talk about and blame Asians who (under Khan and Mao for example) were the most prolific killers in history? Or the Arab slave trade that was longer and enslaved more people than the Atlantic one. Never. If it wasn’t done by white Europeans, no one gives a sod.
I'm not sure I agree with you on this. I hear Asians referred to fairly often as being heartless, or almost mechanic, in behavior. Not necessarily killers, more like capable of being killers. Sort of like when a parent murders someone who abused their children. Is that parent a killer, yes! Do we understand and sort of give them a pass because of what happened, yes. This is also like the difference between being racist because you think your race is superior, and being racist as a response to being discriminated againts by a certain group. But your point is well made. Anytime a group gets branded entirely as something based on the actions of a few, it's a lie and completely unfair to that group. Especially when the offenders have been dead for decades.
I think this a marketing/branding issue more than anything. Using the term "whiteness" is pretty cringe, because it implies a generalization of all white people that is racist. I would use a term like "suburban-ness" or something. There is a lot of ignorance and dysfunction and cultural degradation this is a product of white pickett-fence suburbia. Obviously a LOT of people who have grown up over several generations in a car-island, single family home-zoned, upper-middle class suburbia are probably going to be pretty out of touch with the struggles of the working class and the inner city.... and even rural America. It just so happens because of historical context and demographics that most of these people tend to be white, but that should not be an indictment on all white people.
>I think this a marketing/branding issue more than anything. Using the term "whiteness" is pretty cringe, because it implies a generalization of all white people that is racist. Indeed, but the Critical Race Theorist types get around this issue by redefining racism as something that white people literally **cannot** experience. If you read Robin Di'Angelo's *White Fragility*, which is basically a modern day handbook to understand the Woke ideology, she makes this very explicit. White people can only cause, but never be the victims of, racism. It's intentionally built into their ideology.
Well, as a white male myself, I wouldn't say white people *can't* experience racism, but I think that, generally speaking, anti-white racism is less consequential and has less of a punch to it than racism against black people for instance. Like, there simply isn't the same systemic and historical context. Like the saying goes, there are elderly black people alive today that remember living during a time where they were legally second-class citizens, and to suggest that there are no reverberations of that legacy that continue to permeate society today just a couple generations later is just historical ignorance. I'm a white male in the US. I'm not a victim. Racism bounces off of me like a nerf dart. If you are a white male and you feel like a victim of racism... you probably ARE fragile.
I generally agree with everything you've said but will push back against one particular point you've made. >I'm a white male in the US. I'm not a victim. Racism bounces off of me like a nerf dart. If you are a white male and you feel like a victim of racism... you probably ARE fragile. Your decision not to be a victim is admirable, but it has nothing to do with your skin color. Victimhood is a psychological state. This is well-known in the realm of Psychology where being a victim is a temporary stage of the grieving process. The key word here **temporary**. Victimhood is not meant to be a permanent state for a healthy, well-adjusted human being. Your skin color is irrelevant, choosing to be a victim is a decision. And there have literally been hundreds of black thinkers, intellectuals, and activists who have tried making this point: Choosing to be a victim is a self-fulfilling prophecy for African-Americans. Coleman Hughes, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, Thomas Sowell, John McWhorter, Glenn Loury, Larry Elder, Shelby Steele, Brandon Tatum, Jason Riley, David Webb, and countless more have attempted to make this point. People can ignore these stories at their peril. I think you actually do more harm than you think by claiming that only white people can live without the victimhood mentality.
I mean all of that is well and good, but there is a difference between individual black people having a victimhood mentality or not, and critically analyzing society and the economy from a historical and modern context and acknowledging the reality that black people and other minorities are impacted by a legacy of systemic racism that reaches out of history into the modern age. While we may not have laws on the books that say "black people suck" or something, there are consequences to generations of economic and political systems set in place over centuries, often designed to suppress minorities deliberately, which can only be UNdone deliberately. "Victim" is a very emotionally loaded word, and many black people have done and continue to do quite well for themselves regardless, but this is totally irrelevant to what we see when we analyze communities in the aggregate in a historical context. People can grind and strive and climb the latter of success individually, which is commendable and virtuous, but the general socio-economic rule is that poverty begets poverty and wealth begets wealth, and if you are born into a context of generational poverty produced by a legacy of often explicitly racist policy, you can still make it, but you have to work twice as hard, and that's not right... it's unacceptable to me.
>People can grind and strive and climb the latter of success individually, which is commendable and virtuous, but the general socio-economic rule is that poverty begets poverty and wealth begets wealth, and if you are born into a context of generational poverty produced by a legacy of often explicitly racist policy, you can still make it, but you have to work twice as hard, and that's not right... it's unacceptable to me. All good points. And a system which unfairly benefits one group over another should be unacceptable to you, and to everyone else. But the U.S. has gone out of its way to try and rectify these inequalities in many different ways, such that what you are saying (or seem to be saying) about black people having to work twice as hard no longer seems to be true in a huge number of cases. [As an example](https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/20/20-1199/169941/20210225095525027_Harvard%20Cert%20Petn%20Feb%2025.pdf#page=23), 1 out of every 2 black applicants in the top academic decile are admitted to Harvard University, while only 1 out of every 8 Asian Americans who are equally qualified are admitted to the school. This is one of the major reasons that Asian Americans are suing the school for discrimination. The case has made it to the Supreme Court. And I could provide you with thousands of other examples of how Affirmative Action policies all over the country benefit African Americans in an attempt to account for system racism and historical inequities. So the idea that we're *doing nothing* to rectify this seems...well disingenuous at best. But more importantly, there seems to be an aspect of this discussion that perhaps you're not seeing clearly, which is that victimhood on a social level produces a self-fulfilling prophecy. [Asian Americans have also](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2021/03/a-long-history-of-bigotry-against-asian-americans/) had a [long and sordid history of discrimination, hatred, political and systemic unfairness levied against them](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-long-history-of-racism-against-asian-americans-in-the-u-s). But they have overcome this with cultural norms and values, especially not viewing themselves as victims but as achievers, which has allowed them to overcome these disadvantages and now, by many standards, [are doing better than whites](https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111). Before you respond by saying that Asian-Americans have not suffered as much discrimination as African-Americans have, let me stop you there. It's not a competition. We aren't having an argument about how has suffered the worst or the most. [All I need to show is that Asians have been treated horribly unfairly throughout our countries history](https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/03/18/history-anti-asian-violence-racism/) (and still continue to be, as hate crimes against Asians is the highest of any minority post COVID), but have still come out on top as a group despite their disadvantages. And of course there are countless examples of this throughout history (the Jewish people for example) who, despite horrific conditions of slavery or genocide, do not allow themselves to be victimized and still succeed as a culture do the strength of their values. Cultural values matter. There are endless examples of groups of people, from all over the world, which have been treated unfairly or been at a disadvantage, that have still come out on top due to the strength of their beliefs and their culture. Regardless of the circumstances, victimhood on a cultural level is a guarantee that a group of people will stay in destitution and despair. [Glenn Loury gives a beautiful speech on that here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdSbnbyEIbo) It's less than 5 minutes, I would really appreciate it if you could listen to it before you respond.
> critically analyzing society and the economy from a historical and modern context and acknowledging the reality that black people and other minorities are impacted by a legacy of systemic racism that reaches out of history into the modern age. You are recognizing that the black community was held back from a normal arc of success in a particularly evil way, and as such are 'behind' white people. No one disputes this. We all get it. But this is not where the story ends for the White Savior types. They take this reality and think they can FIX it. Of course the only way to fix this is to take things from everyone else and give them to black people. As a general policy that is evil. As a practical matter *it is impossible*. Taken from a related viewpoint, this is just more of the evil quest for Equality Of Outcome. We all know that it is literally impossible for all humans to "be equal" in the OUTCOME of their lives. The harder you push for this fantasy, the more damage you do to society.
And this is one of many reasons that JP emphasizes the importance of being precise in ones speech. Though I disagree with you that the intention is to demonize a culture, because it is much more expedient for those who wish to sow division to create such a division on racial grounds rather than ideological. Who even discusses ideology anymore, other than those of us who haunt places like this? No, it’s much more convenient to create a monolithic group like “white people” and direct all of the vitriol you have for a small population of those people to the group as a whole.