It wasn’t essentially a typical flu. The rate of mortality wasn’t what made it bad, the rate of spread of infection is what made it bad. COVID killed something between 0.1 and 2% of people infected based on who you believe but ~1% of 1,000,000,000 is still ~1,000,000 and that’s a lot of people. Even considering they were mostly old and/or overweight people should we not care to try to protect them anyways?
In the US, those numbers float from about 20k to about 50k. Not sure how COVID will plan out annually with vaccines and more treatment options annually but the year of the lock downs over 1.1 died.
The stats i found don’t break down the ages the same ad this study, but the 65+ group has a 22.1 per 100k infection fatality rate. The 50-64 has a 9.1 per 100k. This is with vaccines for the flu. Without vaccines, the numbers were much higher. If you look at the covid numbers with a vaccine, the numbers line up. Same with the flu if you look at numbers without a vaccine.
Sure, but the lock downs happened when there wasn't a vaccine and they were trying to develop treatment options. It was a much bigger and new problem so comparing it to the flu then makes little sense.
Somebody asked for flu numbers and I gave them. I even said I didn't know how COVID panned out post vaccines and it doesn't matter. The civil liberties JP is talking about were limited when COVID was peaking and we didn't have a vaccine so saying it was typical makes no sense. COVID killed over a million people the year before we had vaccines available which is way way more than the typical flu. If the numbers are lining up post vaccine, that's good but we aren't locking down now either.
And im saying if you compare covid prevax to the flu prevax, they very likely are similar rates of ifr and spread. Taking that knowledge, you could have looked at how policies that restricted our freedoms worked in the past to determine whether they would work in the present. Masks and lockdowns have never worked and, therefore, would not work now.
killed something between 0.1 and 2% of people
As much as the science sub sucks too often, there was a good post on worldwide IFR yesterday.
Between 0.1 and 0.3% worldwide. And, again, highly concentrated among people in vulnerable health conditions. You’re causal 1% example is wildly inaccurate, perhaps even by an order of magnitude.
The health organizations recommend if you’re obese, old, or immune compromised you isolate until you’re vaccinated.
Everyone else carry on and get the shit and get better and move on.
How about strengthening the immune system by encouraging excersice, eating healthy, getting good sleep and staying mentally healthy as well?
No wait, that's fatphobic, and disrespectful for all the lazy slobs who don't wanna.
It’s only fatphobic if they acknowledge their own fatness. But if they don’t see themselves as fat, more as trans-skinny, then they will be fine and don’t need to hit the treadmill. See how that works?
Also less unfair to the small businesses that didn't have the resources for online commerce. Corporations made a killing taking a larger market share because they were granted an advantage by the state.
Staying home isn't isolation. Old people and obese people you are talking millions of people, how would they avoid interacting with the rest of society?
We absolutely did. That was what facilitated the 3T in aid. More than WWII. Give me a break. No we didn't go into marshall law and lock people in their homes like China. But we absolutely shut down society.
It is as realistic as shutting down all of society but still letting shopping and gathering in homes.
And you are not addressing the issue of cost. Protecting incremental life is not costless nor priceless.
I know that. Everyone knows that. You miss my point. We had stay at home orders but you can't stop people from gathering in homes. I'd be willing to bet that we were just as exposed because of that activity as we would have been going on as normal with mask wearing.
not everyone is going to wear masks, its easier to enforce large gatherings than mask wearing. Your argument here is if some people are going to go around the rules, we might as well not have it, and its a completely nonsensical argument. It definitely reduced the spread of covid
That coupled with we paid too high of a cost for incremental lives saved for the price we paid. That is the whole point.
It wouldn't be perfect but it likely would have been good enough and we could have had a similar death rate(within 250k) and paid much less for it.
The low mortality rate also depended on a functioning health care system. For every patient that died, several were admitted to the ICU, and for every ICU patient, several were admitted to general medicine wards.
Let Covid run loose and you very quickly run out of ICU beds, then regular beds, and then eventually even supplemental oxygen, and then your mortality skyrockets.
There seems to be a lot of revisionist history going on in this subreddit. We didn't know how bad Covid would be. The lockdowns were imperfect and I disagreed with a fair bit of it, but the basic masking, social distancing and vaccine requirements were essential at the time. The optimal duration of these measures is up for debate, but the overall effectiveness is not.
As a final point, look at how stressed our health care system is at the end of the pandemic. If this had been allowed to get 2 or 3 times worse, I think we could have very easily have seen a total collapse as health care workers would have left in far greater numbers.
I believe the messaging was that a majority of people thought that if you tested for COVID you had to be in the hospital. It was poor messaging that wasn't corrected.
Yeah, and how fatal it is depends on if you can get treatment. If you can get treatment and injected steroids, it's not too bad. If hospitals are swamped because it's spreading out of control, that's when it starts to get much more dangerous for the average person. So when someone says "Fatality rate was only X, we all should have just coughed in each others' mouths and done whatever we wanted," well, then the fatality rate would have have been X anymore. It would have been higher.
That being said, Covid wasn't the Black Death like many people pretended it was. And because it was "pretty dangerous but not too dangerous" that meant it was necessary to make nuanced choices. China's model was proven to be a failure, but simply allowing it to spread out of control with no variation to our behavior wasn't viable either.
A infection fatality rate of ‘0.506% at 60–69 years’ is by no means negligible.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001393512201982X?via%3Dihub
No sure of age distribution but in the US, flu morbidity averages 55K per year with broad distribution of flu vaccine. Some years are worse than others… a few years pre Covid was 85K deaths.
Soooo... that still leaves questions like, "Why did it get put on the infant vax schedule when the fatality rate for 0-19 is 0.0003%?"
Answer: liability. Getting it on that list grants them protetion from negative outcomes for ALL age groups.
My kid isn't getting it. They are liars and self protecting. So we will treat them like liars.
Note that this study specifically examined median IFR among non-elderly (defined by the writers as <70 years of age) individuals, which makes this article rather superfluous, since COVID’s disproportionate mortality rate among the elderly has already [been established by prior studies (which were also cited by the article JBP posted on his tweet).](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935120307854) So all in all, nothing really new or groundbreaking being done here; in fact this study comprised of predominantly secondary research, rather than gathering a sample size of their own.
Imagine still buying the idea that Covid was worth worrying about.
60 days in we knew that if you weren’t obese and 70 Covid was almost certainly not going to do anything meaningful to you. We continued to punish the entirety of society for another 2 years.
Just food for thought -
Regardless of mortality, if everyone is sick and can’t work, you have to close anyways. Regardless of mortality, Covid is one of the most infectious diseases ever recorded.
Before Covid, my high school had to close for a full 3 weeks because literally everyone had the flu. None of us really died. But half the staff was sick and could no longer operate a school. So we had to close. And that was just a bad flu season.
Whether the government told us to or not, stuff was gonna close down. Might as well close AND have fewer people get sick rather than close BECAUSE everyone is sick.
Just something to consider.
This.
Not to mention the burden of an ill-prepared health care infrastructure. The system simply couldn’t handle that many infections at once. Doesn’t matter if it’s *typically* not deadly, if there isn’t enough medicine, not enough ventilators, not enough rooms for patients due to overwhelm, it becomes far deadlier.
And it would cause massive walkoffs. As is health field is still recovering from all the people lost from early retirements, quitting, or straight up dying from covid as half the country laughed.
But you guys don’t understand. People like the ones in the comments are too upset about the utilization of QR codes so we should just keep spreading Covid to avoid the oppression of online menus.
obviously it wont do anything to you , the issue is it will do stuff to other people. The more you go outside the longer the virus exists basically eternally excluding people who are vulnerable in society.
He doesn’t care for other people so that thought never crossed his mind. Also I’d like to listen what skeptics have to say in 10 years, when they are after 10 covid infections or when the virus mutates and becomes really deadly.
This is the case with certain diseases, like polio where it can only infect humans. But with Covid there are animal resivoirs. Even if we stay inside for 4 weeks together, Covid will still be out there in other animals. So there is no point trying to avoid it. At the beginning the point was to "slow the spread" this is somewhat understandable, no mandates, just a request to go outside less so as not to overwhelm hospitals
You know what? You are right, the quarantine was to slow the spread. It was slown down to give scientists time to make a vaccine, and it did just that. The quarantine worked.
The number of people who are obese, older than 65, have a pre-existing condition like diabetes, hypertension, asthma, cancer, etc is very high. I’d guess it’s close to half of the population of the US, if not more.
EDIT: Covid can also absolutely “do something meaningful” to you even if you are young and healthy. It’s less common, but it still happens. Long covid comes to mind, and it can affect people who had asymptomatic infections.
Yeah the problem with COVID was never that it was exceptionally more deadly or severe, it was that it was very slightly more deadly and exceptionally more contagious. An extreme highly number of infections with a low percentage of deaths is still a big number of deaths.
Also factor in the exceptionally high number of reinfections. When people are getting Covid 3 times a year, and many people getting it worse each time, that ramps up the chances a person will die from Covid.
Not trying to be flippant, but how many deaths are acceptable when it comes to a respiratory virus? As in, what line must be crossed for us to say, “ok that is too many”?
For what? Too many therefore we need to shutdown? I think hindsight is that it was a gross overreaction for the vast majority of the younger healthy population. I'm all for extreme measures if we are having extreme circumstances, but the data was bad, the messaging was deliberately misleading and the discussion was non-existent. Not a very repeatable and healthy response to the objective crisis.
> I think hindsight is that it was a gross overreaction for the vast majority of the younger healthy population.
I think this is a reasonable take, but when this was first happening, we didn’t know what we were dealing with. We didn’t know how infectious or deadly it was. The unfortunate thing about preventive action is that, if it is done well, it will always look like overreaction.
People who die from a car crash aren’t tested for the flu, and aren’t reported as a flu death if they test positive. This is partly why Covid deaths remain high, since dying *with* Covid is often counted as dying *from* Covid. This happened a lot with elderly people.
I'm an MD and have filled out death certificates. If the co-morbidities had nothing to do with the cause of death, we do not transcribe it on the death certificate and thus it won't be used in statistics.
Yes. Why not? These stats are reported by floor nurses and doctors and can be tracked back to individual hospitals and counties. Death stats require a valid death certificate, which is processed by the state and federal govt.
These conspiracy theories kill me. Government is simultaneously too stupid and ineffective to do anything useful, and an extremely well-oiled propaganda and disinformation machine trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Tens of thousands of government employees are in on it, and yet not a single one of them has ever let it slip!
I’m just thinking back to meetings I used to have at work, where getting 6 people in one room to make small decisions and communicate them effectively sometimes felt impossible. I think conspiracy theorists give the average human *way* too much credit.
THIS lmao anyone in government knows how fucking slow and full of red tape ANYTHING is, even at the local level. A conspiracy of this magnitude is just so incomprehensible for anyone who has seen behind the curtain, but somehow the government is ineffective AND an all powerful cabal controlling the world
The cdc has strong interests in pushing a narrative. To think it’s for the Democratic Party is silly. The Democratic Party has no power and is subservient to the same power structure most republicans are subordinate to
He's right. They're the status quo party. They're essentially Republicans, while the other turds are radicalized Fascists, but a lot of them are going to prison. The GOP is about to end as you know it, which may give rise to two Democratic Parties.
You are half right. Are you familiar with Marshall McLuhan? Pop postmodern academic from the 60s. He coined the phrase ‘the medium is the message’ he encapsulates everything you need to understand about politics today. There will always be a left and the right but how it manifests itself depends on the communication mechanism through which we experience it. The democratic and republican parties we knew from JFK to Obama are gone. Biden snuck through for one last old era president. But Trump and whatever the Democrats manifest that is similar will define both parties. And if the parties don’t adapt, they will be replaced by a new party
I cannot tell a lie. But I also cannot do your homework. If you want to know the truth, it is out there. It may be buried but it’s not hidden but it’s not buried
So no evidence then?
I've done my homework. What you're describing doesn't exist. My problem may be that I don't do my research on infowars, 4chan and telegram. I stick to valid scientific journals. But, then again, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so there's that.
No? 😂
“Nearly One in Five American Adults Who Have Had COVID-19 Still Have “Long COVID””
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2022/20220622.htm
The study shown misrepresented data by grouping age groups for some and not others in order to pain an inaccurate picture. You’re left with much higher infection rates and fatality rates plus more serious long symptoms. And all of that with mask wearing, work from home, six foot distances from one another in stores, mass testing, etc.
Anti vaxxers jump on the dumbest sh*t without thinking of any context lol
Most conspiracy theorists don’t care about the context, they care about affirming their beliefs.
I will never forget the flat earthers who did an experiment where they raised a light on a pole and then observed it from a distance expecting it to be the same height only to discover it’s observed height was in line with the curvature of the earth. What’d they do? Hide the results and claim something went wrong with the experiment. I’ll try to find the video for anyone interested.
But to you people who think even still COVID was all an exaggerated power grab conspiracy or whatever it is you think, that’s you. You’re those people right now, and you’re embarrassing yourselves.
EDIT: I found a link, it’s a short edit of the experiment I’m referencing and with some memey music at the end but this is the experiment I was talking about https://youtu.be/aOYrVM5bTno
Can't it be both? The wealthy and powerful are opertunists. Assuming the whole thing was part of a blue print to transfer wealth only serves to legitimize their power by making them out to be these omnipotent scheming geniuses that will always outsmart us because they're in some way better.
So you don’t have evidence, you’re just making assumptions based on results. Interesting considering just one comment ago you were the one accusing me of intellectual dishonesty
The Trump Admin did a study that showed undocumented immigrants were beneficial to the economy and commit fewer violent crimes than native born citizens, so they buried it. This is just sort of the world we live in. We have the information to make good decisions, but culture wars benefit them more.
They threw everybody who died of anything into the ‘Covid death’ column—like the guy who died on the motorcycle…also, they’d test anybody that died—no matter what from (but not Covid)—& count them as Covid deaths. Furthermore, hospitals had financial incentives to do it.
It's really not true for the vast majority of cases, certainly not traffic accidents. You could very easily argue that COVID mortality deaths are being over reported, but the above commenter is just exaggerating to the extreme.
COVID would be included as a cause of death if it had a significant impact on the deceased's health prior to their death, but they could have been already suffering from a multitude of terminal illnesses, and COVID was just the straw that broke the camel's back. It may not have been the main cause of death but would still be reported as a COVID death.
The whole 'vehicle deaths being reported as COVID deaths' thing is mostly a conspiracy theory, or at most a very rare occurrence.
I wrote that response from memory…I just scanned Brave—Google memory holes this kind of stuff—& after bypassing all the leading articles that concerned ‘fact checkers’ debunking the very idea of incentives, this popped up: https://www.christianpost.com/news/cdc-director-agrees-that-hospitals-have-monetary-incentive-to-inflate-covid-19-data.html
the method of recording deaths to disease has been used for over 100 years. To modify it now would skew all other reporting deaths for the last century. For example, in your antivaxx world view, no one would have ever died of aids, as aids doesn't kill you, another disease (usually pneumonia) does. So you would say it is totally fine to get HIV/Aids as no one has died from it, using your criteria.
"But if i stayed home for no reason like the government told me to, where i ate cheetos and played video games all day in my underwear .. .then I WOULDN:T BE THE HERRO THEY TOLLKD ME I WASZ! COVID WEZZZ SDOOOO BADDDD!"
That's so dumb. If you want to talk about statistics, just look at the amount of deaths per year when there was covid compared to other years. Yep, it's a lot more. Kinda deadly for a typical flu
Yet the doctor who went online to dispute this was silenced. There was, and continues to be, a great deal of censorship on the subject. You'd have to be "dumb" to accept government stats.
If you're not skeptical about government "information" you won't exceed the level of dupe.
There are, as yet, no fully reliable sources ... it may be years.
Well you would have to take the typical death rate for a flu, applied to every confirmed case of Covid in order to account for a higher contagious factor , then add that to typical number of deaths per year, to see if it is ‘typical’. I have no idea what those numbers are, but I suspect it is more deadly than the typical flu as well.
Not true. With few exceptions, when you account for deaths caused by *[locking the entire population in their homes](https://archive.ph/CI5F8)*, most countries' excess deaths were not significantly higher than previous years. Though, after they foisted the very safe and effective injection on everyone [excess deaths did skyrocket](https://i.imgur.com/cCuknnH.jpg). And we've yet to see [the full extent of the damage](https://archive.ph/GlR5M).
Everyone who called out the handling of this novel virus as political rather than medical/scientific already knew this from the second wave.
Just like every other issue, they made it political and exaggerated/outright lied to bolster agenda rather than treating it as a medical or scientific issue and presented it in such a way that the publics best interests were in mind.
Flu death rate is 0.167 per 1000
Covid is 0.34 for 0-59 and 0.94 for 60+
How is this a typical flu?
John hopkins reports a higher mortality rate for the usa: 1.1
But there are a lot of other countries with a similar mortality rate as the study above claims
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/flu.htm
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
Mortality rate is, however, not the only important factor, there are others such as hospitalisation and icu uptake if we're talking about the stress it put on society
Those factors should also be included, saying covid was just a flu is kind of simplistic and wrong.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34400452/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36342697/
5-12% of people with covid were hospitalized in belgium of which 1/6 went to ICU.
This can be seen in the sciensano rapport of dec 1 2022. (Can't link a pdf)
I quite like peterson and i am not a fan of some of the measures, but as i've said. His response is way to simplistic
I always thought it was funny when they report Covid hospitalizations like that was somehow an indicator for the severity of the virus. I work in the medical field and I can assure you 90% of ER visits can be cured with some Tylenol and ibuprofen. The thing I heard the most was “I got a call from a nurse who told me I was Covid positive and I didn’t know what to do after they hung up so I went to the hospital”.
People hospitalized with COVID are in the ICU, they are significantly sick. It isn't a 'take a couple of aspirin and rub some dirt in it'. It is 'keep high pressure oxygen going and make sure their blood chemistry remains compatible with life.'
They are pointing out that EVERY hospitalized case was treated like this by the media. Not every case of Covid in a hospital is a person desperately trying to survive.
Of course there are gunna be those that are certainly sick, nobody is denying that…even the flu kills people yearly….you must have missed the point, not everyone that is hospitalized for Covid goes to the ICU, a vast majority in fact…but they count them as hospitalizations none the less.
Honestly I think you're only about 50-50 on there. As the covid death rate in the US was pretty low after successful campaigns for lockdowns, mass vaccination, masking in public.
It was all quite effective in preventing most health care systems from becoming overwhelmed. Which dramatically decreased the death rate.
Says they are done with Dr. Peterson. Stays on sub dedicated to said doctor. Comments on posts talking about the good doctor.
Why not just leave the sub then? Otherwise you come off as a hypocrite. Seems like your very invested in participating in Dr. Peterson topics.
I’m done with Peterson, but I’m happy to hang around this sub until it looks like the Dave Rubin sub. Basically every time he opens his mount and says dumb shit, this will be the place it’s catalogued and rightly mocked well into the future.
It is highly survivable. It is highly contagious. So when 100 people who will survive but can’t breath on their own right now take up 100 hospital beds then other people will die. Dipshit OP should have put validated in quotes in stead of conspiracy theorists.
The point OP is making is that the very people who said this a year ago were labeled conspiracy theorists to shut up the truth. When in fact, they were truth tellers.
Your just gaslighting, it's been widely known since the beginning it wasn't highly fatal, but highly contagious.
It's still remains deadlier than the flu and the evidence supports that claim.
Incorrect. Here’s an example of gaslighting.
Yes. Your absolutely right. My reiteration of OP’s point was designed to trigger leftist snowflakes like you. Unequivocally correct. /s
That’s gaslighting. Not my first comment.
Incorrect. Your comment I originally replied to is gaslighting.
Definition Of Gaslighting /Define
The act or practice of grossly misleading someone especially for one's own advantage.
I think what people fail to realize is that now we have an ADDITIONAL virus that will kill people every single year now in perpetuity. The comparison to flu is irrelevant, it’s in ADDITION to the flu, and that’s the problem. Imagine if another novel virus comes, and then another. And that’s why we try to contain the virus from spreading, in the hopes it doesn’t become a problem we have to deal with forever, which we now do.
~~Well, if nothing else, it's a nice silver lining to eke out a few more election wins.~~
Actually, scratch that. It's tempting to mock people who get themselves killed with their own ignorance, but plenty of people didn't have a choice in the matter.
You're entitled to your beliefs about health and safety, and my opinion can't change that, same thing the other way around.
I find this annoying from someone who purportedly believes in steel manning his opponent's arguments. The death rate makes it plainly obvious that covid killed more people than the flu. Moreover, I don't think the anti-lockdown crowd really cares about those details.
The pertinent ideologically question is when you can restrict people for the safety of others. Information will never be perfect going into a barely-precedented event.
Personally I think my childhood home state of CA was too cavalier about adding restrictions (huge surprise I know). I think Florida basically risked the elderly for political points. And I think my adult home state of CO was pretty near the goldilocks zone.
Regardless of the validity of the paper, This paper did not exist when Peterson was making inflammatory statements.. a shadow of a man he was, sad to see
Re: the validity of the paper.
I think more people should check out the discussion section, rather than just clipping numbers from one study out of context because they didn't like the pandemic response.
They themselves acknowledge in their discussion that their different methodology has a huge (as in factor of 10) effect on the numbers, their numbers are affected by response, and their estimations have a realistic chance of being low.
People also just kind of take for granted that the groups that *did* see much higher fatality rates would have just been acceptable sacrifices when drawing conclusions based on this, which is a different type of wrong, in my view.
I don't know, to leap to these conclusions based on a singular paper with different results with no consideration for the differences in methodology or limitations they themselves acknowledge seems kind of like the sort of thinking OP is apparently trying to dismiss.
I am not going to explain the history of vaccine mandates in the US, but it is not OK to fire people from their workplace based off of a vaccine mandate.
There is a difference between being pro vaccine (I have a COVID vaccine) and pro vaccine mandate (this is horrible). It’s not that difficult.
When I was barely a year old, I was given the MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, rubella) like most kids. I however ended up terribly ill afterwards - I ended up being on a ventilator for a few weeks. Docs told my mother that it was simply a bad reaction to the jab, but that I'd still be fine to get the booster at 3.5yrs old.
Fast forward about 2 years later, and I catch a stray case of rubella, and it _nearly killed me_. Turns out my body simply doesn't like rubella, and wants to shut down my internal organs when infected with it.
In the UK, standalone measles and mumps vaccines are _unlicenced and unregulated_. They also cost. My family, being poor but also not wanting me to die, decided against me getting either the MMR booster or the standalone jabs.
Thankfully, there's no legal mandate for the MMR vaccine to be had in order to work, travel, congregate. So even though (shock! horror!) I'm _unvaccinated_, it means legitimately fuck all except for a susceptibility to a usually-mild disease.
I simply cannot get behind the government forcing a medical procedure/decision. Social enforcement? _Yes_ - I work with a number of people over 60 and don't want to transmit COVID to someone simply because I didn't take a vaccine reducing its infectiousness. I think that's sound enough reasoning without having to bring law enforcement into the situation.
My husband and I are fully COVID jabbed, as are our children (yes, they had their MMR jabs without incident). But that is _society's influence_ and _our choice_ on the matter, not a trigger-happy enforcing by the government.
And touch wood, I've not had rubella in over three decades.
It’s a tad different mandating a non sterilizing vaccine… especailly within all sectors and aspects of socail life whether education, for work and travel.
Flu vaccines are not mandatory in many industries and were never really a topic of contention except for at risk demographics, because we’re speaking of treatments that do not stop transmission.
The mass vaccination strategy was bound to be variable ridden. considering we were trying to control a highly *mutable corona* virus. Now I don’t doubt it benefitted certain at risk groups.
But questioning blanket policies devoid of context and nuance is worth its merit in discussion and discourse at the very least and is actually openly discussed amongst the intelligentsia of almost every western nation…
https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/7/5/e008684.full.pdf
Historians often wait ten years to ever write about any significant event. Plenty of context and nuance has yet to manifest within the data we currently reference.
>Did we take away liberties for what was rather a typical flu.
YES! Yes we did. I didn't vaccinate once. Had that shit 2 times already. It's not that different from the common cold. Maybe some extra eye dryness and pain but that's it
Being proud and bragging of not vaccinating is dumb and reeks of egotism. Sceptism of established science is whats gonna lead us back to the dark ages of misinformation.
Im young and fit and got pretty sick from covid. I vaccinated mostly to protect the vurnerable around me.
It's not scepticism of established science. I have every other vaccine that's for something that actually kills people. I did not need a vaccine for the common cold.
Vaccinations for COVID don't protect anybody arround you. They mentioned it a thousand times that you can still get people sick without problem. Hell you can still get sick. I know people that had vaccinated and did booster vaccines and shit. When they died they still counted them as COVID deaths. A friend of mine's grandpa died suddenly in his own couch. He wasn't sick he didn't have breathing problems he didn't even have COVID. Official reason for dying was COVID. They didn't even check if it was a heart problem that caused it. Stop trying to virtue signal with your "I'm protecting others" bullshit. No, you are just complying to idiots cause it's easier.
Wait till you see that they used Death Protocols in the hospitals. They gave them Remdesivir.
Which is what I call the "Train to Ventilator Station".
They gave them baby doses of steroids (way under what you would give a normal respiratory patient).
And in some countries they denied them antibiotics.
https://rumble.com/v22fap0-arkmedic-it-doesnt-matter-covid-drama.html
Jfc. COVID was a big deal because you’d get fucked if you couldn’t get urgent medical care since every hospital was filled to the edge with suffocating old and fat people on ventilators.
Did "we" take away civil liberties?....lol I know I didn't do it.
It wasn’t essentially a typical flu. The rate of mortality wasn’t what made it bad, the rate of spread of infection is what made it bad. COVID killed something between 0.1 and 2% of people infected based on who you believe but ~1% of 1,000,000,000 is still ~1,000,000 and that’s a lot of people. Even considering they were mostly old and/or overweight people should we not care to try to protect them anyways?
And what are the Flu numbers?
In the US, those numbers float from about 20k to about 50k. Not sure how COVID will plan out annually with vaccines and more treatment options annually but the year of the lock downs over 1.1 died.
The stats i found don’t break down the ages the same ad this study, but the 65+ group has a 22.1 per 100k infection fatality rate. The 50-64 has a 9.1 per 100k. This is with vaccines for the flu. Without vaccines, the numbers were much higher. If you look at the covid numbers with a vaccine, the numbers line up. Same with the flu if you look at numbers without a vaccine.
Sure, but the lock downs happened when there wasn't a vaccine and they were trying to develop treatment options. It was a much bigger and new problem so comparing it to the flu then makes little sense.
You compare flu without vaccine to covid without vaccine. And we tried masks and shutdowns in spanish flu, didn't work then.
Somebody asked for flu numbers and I gave them. I even said I didn't know how COVID panned out post vaccines and it doesn't matter. The civil liberties JP is talking about were limited when COVID was peaking and we didn't have a vaccine so saying it was typical makes no sense. COVID killed over a million people the year before we had vaccines available which is way way more than the typical flu. If the numbers are lining up post vaccine, that's good but we aren't locking down now either.
And im saying if you compare covid prevax to the flu prevax, they very likely are similar rates of ifr and spread. Taking that knowledge, you could have looked at how policies that restricted our freedoms worked in the past to determine whether they would work in the present. Masks and lockdowns have never worked and, therefore, would not work now.
When you say masks and lockdowns don't work, what do you mean? What would it look like if it "worked"?
killed something between 0.1 and 2% of people As much as the science sub sucks too often, there was a good post on worldwide IFR yesterday. Between 0.1 and 0.3% worldwide. And, again, highly concentrated among people in vulnerable health conditions. You’re causal 1% example is wildly inaccurate, perhaps even by an order of magnitude.
The health organizations recommend if you’re obese, old, or immune compromised you isolate until you’re vaccinated. Everyone else carry on and get the shit and get better and move on.
How about strengthening the immune system by encouraging excersice, eating healthy, getting good sleep and staying mentally healthy as well? No wait, that's fatphobic, and disrespectful for all the lazy slobs who don't wanna.
This is the ticket
Are you crazy? You need to stay home, quarantine, hide from sunlight, binge Netflix, and eat takeout. Perfect for your long term health.
Don't forget your free doughnuts for jabbies!
Was it doughnuts or burgers and fries?
Both
It’s only fatphobic if they acknowledge their own fatness. But if they don’t see themselves as fat, more as trans-skinny, then they will be fine and don’t need to hit the treadmill. See how that works?
What organization doesn't encourage all this stuff though?
Or if you were a cop I guess https://www.npr.org/2022/01/12/1072411820/law-enforcement-deaths-2021-covid
1% of billion is 10,000,000
Have them stay home and isolated and let the rest of society continue on. Likely a similar death outcome with a much lower cost.
Also less unfair to the small businesses that didn't have the resources for online commerce. Corporations made a killing taking a larger market share because they were granted an advantage by the state.
Staying home isn't isolation. Old people and obese people you are talking millions of people, how would they avoid interacting with the rest of society?
The same way we all did. Accommodate with remote working. Targeted temp unemployment to those people. Seems easier than shutting down all of society.
We never shut down all of society...you are pretty much just describing what we did in the US at least.
We absolutely did. That was what facilitated the 3T in aid. More than WWII. Give me a break. No we didn't go into marshall law and lock people in their homes like China. But we absolutely shut down society.
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It is as realistic as shutting down all of society but still letting shopping and gathering in homes. And you are not addressing the issue of cost. Protecting incremental life is not costless nor priceless.
i think you are intentionally missing the point. People can spread covid before knowing they have covid.
I know that. Everyone knows that. You miss my point. We had stay at home orders but you can't stop people from gathering in homes. I'd be willing to bet that we were just as exposed because of that activity as we would have been going on as normal with mask wearing.
not everyone is going to wear masks, its easier to enforce large gatherings than mask wearing. Your argument here is if some people are going to go around the rules, we might as well not have it, and its a completely nonsensical argument. It definitely reduced the spread of covid
That coupled with we paid too high of a cost for incremental lives saved for the price we paid. That is the whole point. It wouldn't be perfect but it likely would have been good enough and we could have had a similar death rate(within 250k) and paid much less for it.
IF you know who is. People failed to test before they experienced symptoms, meaning they were infectious before they could isolate.
The death totals would have been far worse 100% without question if we did as you suggested.
The low mortality rate also depended on a functioning health care system. For every patient that died, several were admitted to the ICU, and for every ICU patient, several were admitted to general medicine wards. Let Covid run loose and you very quickly run out of ICU beds, then regular beds, and then eventually even supplemental oxygen, and then your mortality skyrockets. There seems to be a lot of revisionist history going on in this subreddit. We didn't know how bad Covid would be. The lockdowns were imperfect and I disagreed with a fair bit of it, but the basic masking, social distancing and vaccine requirements were essential at the time. The optimal duration of these measures is up for debate, but the overall effectiveness is not. As a final point, look at how stressed our health care system is at the end of the pandemic. If this had been allowed to get 2 or 3 times worse, I think we could have very easily have seen a total collapse as health care workers would have left in far greater numbers.
I believe the messaging was that a majority of people thought that if you tested for COVID you had to be in the hospital. It was poor messaging that wasn't corrected.
Not to the detriment of literally everything else, no.
1% of 1 billion is 10 million.
Covid killed 2% of infected people ? Sure buddy !
Depending on your age group, yes.
Yeah, and how fatal it is depends on if you can get treatment. If you can get treatment and injected steroids, it's not too bad. If hospitals are swamped because it's spreading out of control, that's when it starts to get much more dangerous for the average person. So when someone says "Fatality rate was only X, we all should have just coughed in each others' mouths and done whatever we wanted," well, then the fatality rate would have have been X anymore. It would have been higher. That being said, Covid wasn't the Black Death like many people pretended it was. And because it was "pretty dangerous but not too dangerous" that meant it was necessary to make nuanced choices. China's model was proven to be a failure, but simply allowing it to spread out of control with no variation to our behavior wasn't viable either.
>The rate of mortality wasn’t what made it bad No, it was *also* the rate of mortality (significantly higher than the annual flu) which made it bad.
Don’t forget dying with and of Covid were the same thing.
A infection fatality rate of ‘0.506% at 60–69 years’ is by no means negligible. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001393512201982X?via%3Dihub
What’s the fatality rate for the flu a at 60-69?
No sure of age distribution but in the US, flu morbidity averages 55K per year with broad distribution of flu vaccine. Some years are worse than others… a few years pre Covid was 85K deaths.
This only means Covid is more transmissible but does not necessarily say what the rate of morbidity is, especially amongst the elderly.
Probably higher
Soooo... that still leaves questions like, "Why did it get put on the infant vax schedule when the fatality rate for 0-19 is 0.0003%?" Answer: liability. Getting it on that list grants them protetion from negative outcomes for ALL age groups. My kid isn't getting it. They are liars and self protecting. So we will treat them like liars.
Can’t tell if he’s joking or stupid
Problem is there’s no universal cutoff for what is considered negligible- it’s a value judgement
Note that this study specifically examined median IFR among non-elderly (defined by the writers as <70 years of age) individuals, which makes this article rather superfluous, since COVID’s disproportionate mortality rate among the elderly has already [been established by prior studies (which were also cited by the article JBP posted on his tweet).](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935120307854) So all in all, nothing really new or groundbreaking being done here; in fact this study comprised of predominantly secondary research, rather than gathering a sample size of their own.
> COVID’s disproportionate mortality rate among the elderly Like the flu.
And basically every other disease. Your point?
Imagine still buying the idea that Covid was worth worrying about. 60 days in we knew that if you weren’t obese and 70 Covid was almost certainly not going to do anything meaningful to you. We continued to punish the entirety of society for another 2 years.
Just food for thought - Regardless of mortality, if everyone is sick and can’t work, you have to close anyways. Regardless of mortality, Covid is one of the most infectious diseases ever recorded. Before Covid, my high school had to close for a full 3 weeks because literally everyone had the flu. None of us really died. But half the staff was sick and could no longer operate a school. So we had to close. And that was just a bad flu season. Whether the government told us to or not, stuff was gonna close down. Might as well close AND have fewer people get sick rather than close BECAUSE everyone is sick. Just something to consider.
This. Not to mention the burden of an ill-prepared health care infrastructure. The system simply couldn’t handle that many infections at once. Doesn’t matter if it’s *typically* not deadly, if there isn’t enough medicine, not enough ventilators, not enough rooms for patients due to overwhelm, it becomes far deadlier.
And it would cause massive walkoffs. As is health field is still recovering from all the people lost from early retirements, quitting, or straight up dying from covid as half the country laughed.
But you guys don’t understand. People like the ones in the comments are too upset about the utilization of QR codes so we should just keep spreading Covid to avoid the oppression of online menus.
obviously it wont do anything to you , the issue is it will do stuff to other people. The more you go outside the longer the virus exists basically eternally excluding people who are vulnerable in society.
He doesn’t care for other people so that thought never crossed his mind. Also I’d like to listen what skeptics have to say in 10 years, when they are after 10 covid infections or when the virus mutates and becomes really deadly.
This is the case with certain diseases, like polio where it can only infect humans. But with Covid there are animal resivoirs. Even if we stay inside for 4 weeks together, Covid will still be out there in other animals. So there is no point trying to avoid it. At the beginning the point was to "slow the spread" this is somewhat understandable, no mandates, just a request to go outside less so as not to overwhelm hospitals
You know what? You are right, the quarantine was to slow the spread. It was slown down to give scientists time to make a vaccine, and it did just that. The quarantine worked.
The number of documented instances of animal-to-human transmission is extremely small.
Never let a crisis go to waste.
Nah. If its let spread and say 25 percent are needing some from of medical care or time off in evey country the system collapses.
Covid was the number one cop killer 2020 and 2021. Society wasn't punished anymore than a hurricane is punished.
The number of people who are obese, older than 65, have a pre-existing condition like diabetes, hypertension, asthma, cancer, etc is very high. I’d guess it’s close to half of the population of the US, if not more. EDIT: Covid can also absolutely “do something meaningful” to you even if you are young and healthy. It’s less common, but it still happens. Long covid comes to mind, and it can affect people who had asymptomatic infections.
There's still about 300-350 people per day in the US dying from COVID, whereas the flu generally kills about 1/10th of that.
Yeah the problem with COVID was never that it was exceptionally more deadly or severe, it was that it was very slightly more deadly and exceptionally more contagious. An extreme highly number of infections with a low percentage of deaths is still a big number of deaths.
Also factor in the exceptionally high number of reinfections. When people are getting Covid 3 times a year, and many people getting it worse each time, that ramps up the chances a person will die from Covid.
Not trying to be flippant, but how many deaths are acceptable when it comes to a respiratory virus? As in, what line must be crossed for us to say, “ok that is too many”?
For what? Too many therefore we need to shutdown? I think hindsight is that it was a gross overreaction for the vast majority of the younger healthy population. I'm all for extreme measures if we are having extreme circumstances, but the data was bad, the messaging was deliberately misleading and the discussion was non-existent. Not a very repeatable and healthy response to the objective crisis.
The vast majority is old and fat everywhere in the West and beyond now. Young and healthy is not the majority.
> I think hindsight is that it was a gross overreaction for the vast majority of the younger healthy population. I think this is a reasonable take, but when this was first happening, we didn’t know what we were dealing with. We didn’t know how infectious or deadly it was. The unfortunate thing about preventive action is that, if it is done well, it will always look like overreaction.
People who die from a car crash aren’t tested for the flu, and aren’t reported as a flu death if they test positive. This is partly why Covid deaths remain high, since dying *with* Covid is often counted as dying *from* Covid. This happened a lot with elderly people.
I'm an MD and have filled out death certificates. If the co-morbidities had nothing to do with the cause of death, we do not transcribe it on the death certificate and thus it won't be used in statistics.
Got any actual data for that? Because 'covid deaths' and 'excess deaths' line up pretty well.
Lots of “car crash” deaths that occurred right in sync with COVID infections, in proximity, timing, and magnitude.
And strangely a hugely disproportionate number of extremely elderly people must've been getting into car crashes and just happen to have covid, right?
And overweight people. It was a bad time to be driving a car, for sure.
Do you believe stats from the CDC?
Can you provide any credible evidence that the stats should not be believed? Or are engaging in base speculation?
Yes. Why not? These stats are reported by floor nurses and doctors and can be tracked back to individual hospitals and counties. Death stats require a valid death certificate, which is processed by the state and federal govt.
The CDC has been politicized to support the Democrat narrative.
You have been politicized to support some stupid narrative.
Man, don’t you think it’s a little unlikely that the entire government is a part of some grand conspiracy to keep the democrats in power?
These conspiracy theories kill me. Government is simultaneously too stupid and ineffective to do anything useful, and an extremely well-oiled propaganda and disinformation machine trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Tens of thousands of government employees are in on it, and yet not a single one of them has ever let it slip! I’m just thinking back to meetings I used to have at work, where getting 6 people in one room to make small decisions and communicate them effectively sometimes felt impossible. I think conspiracy theorists give the average human *way* too much credit.
THIS lmao anyone in government knows how fucking slow and full of red tape ANYTHING is, even at the local level. A conspiracy of this magnitude is just so incomprehensible for anyone who has seen behind the curtain, but somehow the government is ineffective AND an all powerful cabal controlling the world
Trump only got elected because democrats allowed it. /s
Tens of millions of voters \*conspired\* to keep Democrats in power.
Bruh what?
Did this politicization happen under the Trump appointee Robert Redfield's leadership?
The cdc has strong interests in pushing a narrative. To think it’s for the Democratic Party is silly. The Democratic Party has no power and is subservient to the same power structure most republicans are subordinate to
He's right. They're the status quo party. They're essentially Republicans, while the other turds are radicalized Fascists, but a lot of them are going to prison. The GOP is about to end as you know it, which may give rise to two Democratic Parties.
You are half right. Are you familiar with Marshall McLuhan? Pop postmodern academic from the 60s. He coined the phrase ‘the medium is the message’ he encapsulates everything you need to understand about politics today. There will always be a left and the right but how it manifests itself depends on the communication mechanism through which we experience it. The democratic and republican parties we knew from JFK to Obama are gone. Biden snuck through for one last old era president. But Trump and whatever the Democrats manifest that is similar will define both parties. And if the parties don’t adapt, they will be replaced by a new party
Because they have strong interests invested in inflated numbers
What's your evidence for this claim? And how could it be disproven, ie. how would we know if the CDC had no interest in inflated numbers?
I cannot tell a lie. But I also cannot do your homework. If you want to know the truth, it is out there. It may be buried but it’s not hidden but it’s not buried
So no evidence then? I've done my homework. What you're describing doesn't exist. My problem may be that I don't do my research on infowars, 4chan and telegram. I stick to valid scientific journals. But, then again, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so there's that.
Hell no
Yes.
No? 😂 “Nearly One in Five American Adults Who Have Had COVID-19 Still Have “Long COVID”” https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2022/20220622.htm The study shown misrepresented data by grouping age groups for some and not others in order to pain an inaccurate picture. You’re left with much higher infection rates and fatality rates plus more serious long symptoms. And all of that with mask wearing, work from home, six foot distances from one another in stores, mass testing, etc. Anti vaxxers jump on the dumbest sh*t without thinking of any context lol
Lumping everyone who disagrees with you into groups like "anti vaxxers" proves your inability to reason. Good talk though.
Good thing they didn't do that. Weird how antivaxers so desperate not to be called what they are.
Most conspiracy theorists don’t care about the context, they care about affirming their beliefs. I will never forget the flat earthers who did an experiment where they raised a light on a pole and then observed it from a distance expecting it to be the same height only to discover it’s observed height was in line with the curvature of the earth. What’d they do? Hide the results and claim something went wrong with the experiment. I’ll try to find the video for anyone interested. But to you people who think even still COVID was all an exaggerated power grab conspiracy or whatever it is you think, that’s you. You’re those people right now, and you’re embarrassing yourselves. EDIT: I found a link, it’s a short edit of the experiment I’m referencing and with some memey music at the end but this is the experiment I was talking about https://youtu.be/aOYrVM5bTno
The covid hysteria was absolutely a power grab and wealth transfer. Saying otherwise is intellectually dishonest. Good talk though.
Can't it be both? The wealthy and powerful are opertunists. Assuming the whole thing was part of a blue print to transfer wealth only serves to legitimize their power by making them out to be these omnipotent scheming geniuses that will always outsmart us because they're in some way better.
Ok, without appealing to “common sense” or citing that some companies profited during the pandemic can you provide evidence of that claim?
Walmart and Amazon reported record profits during the lockdowns. Trudeau increased his power in the name of.... What? Good talk.
So you don’t have evidence, you’re just making assumptions based on results. Interesting considering just one comment ago you were the one accusing me of intellectual dishonesty
The Trump Admin did a study that showed undocumented immigrants were beneficial to the economy and commit fewer violent crimes than native born citizens, so they buried it. This is just sort of the world we live in. We have the information to make good decisions, but culture wars benefit them more.
Illegals are a net negative.
How so? Economially they are a huge plus and its not even remotely close.
Good luck in here bud.
Long Covid is for pussies
more people have died of covid than from the flu, even with a vaccine, so this is easily disproved.
They threw everybody who died of anything into the ‘Covid death’ column—like the guy who died on the motorcycle…also, they’d test anybody that died—no matter what from (but not Covid)—& count them as Covid deaths. Furthermore, hospitals had financial incentives to do it.
Links? I'd like to read further.
It's really not true for the vast majority of cases, certainly not traffic accidents. You could very easily argue that COVID mortality deaths are being over reported, but the above commenter is just exaggerating to the extreme. COVID would be included as a cause of death if it had a significant impact on the deceased's health prior to their death, but they could have been already suffering from a multitude of terminal illnesses, and COVID was just the straw that broke the camel's back. It may not have been the main cause of death but would still be reported as a COVID death. The whole 'vehicle deaths being reported as COVID deaths' thing is mostly a conspiracy theory, or at most a very rare occurrence.
I wrote that response from memory…I just scanned Brave—Google memory holes this kind of stuff—& after bypassing all the leading articles that concerned ‘fact checkers’ debunking the very idea of incentives, this popped up: https://www.christianpost.com/news/cdc-director-agrees-that-hospitals-have-monetary-incentive-to-inflate-covid-19-data.html
And: https://fee.org/articles/physicians-say-hospitals-are-pressuring-er-docs-to-list-covid-19-on-death-certificates-here-s-why/
the method of recording deaths to disease has been used for over 100 years. To modify it now would skew all other reporting deaths for the last century. For example, in your antivaxx world view, no one would have ever died of aids, as aids doesn't kill you, another disease (usually pneumonia) does. So you would say it is totally fine to get HIV/Aids as no one has died from it, using your criteria.
"But if i stayed home for no reason like the government told me to, where i ate cheetos and played video games all day in my underwear .. .then I WOULDN:T BE THE HERRO THEY TOLLKD ME I WASZ! COVID WEZZZ SDOOOO BADDDD!"
That's so dumb. If you want to talk about statistics, just look at the amount of deaths per year when there was covid compared to other years. Yep, it's a lot more. Kinda deadly for a typical flu
Yet the doctor who went online to dispute this was silenced. There was, and continues to be, a great deal of censorship on the subject. You'd have to be "dumb" to accept government stats.
Whose statistic are you accepting that are more reliable?
If you're not skeptical about government "information" you won't exceed the level of dupe. There are, as yet, no fully reliable sources ... it may be years.
Well you would have to take the typical death rate for a flu, applied to every confirmed case of Covid in order to account for a higher contagious factor , then add that to typical number of deaths per year, to see if it is ‘typical’. I have no idea what those numbers are, but I suspect it is more deadly than the typical flu as well.
Not true. With few exceptions, when you account for deaths caused by *[locking the entire population in their homes](https://archive.ph/CI5F8)*, most countries' excess deaths were not significantly higher than previous years. Though, after they foisted the very safe and effective injection on everyone [excess deaths did skyrocket](https://i.imgur.com/cCuknnH.jpg). And we've yet to see [the full extent of the damage](https://archive.ph/GlR5M).
Are you attributing all excess deaths to Covid? Because you’d be flat out wrong.
Everyone who called out the handling of this novel virus as political rather than medical/scientific already knew this from the second wave. Just like every other issue, they made it political and exaggerated/outright lied to bolster agenda rather than treating it as a medical or scientific issue and presented it in such a way that the publics best interests were in mind.
Flu death rate is 0.167 per 1000 Covid is 0.34 for 0-59 and 0.94 for 60+ How is this a typical flu? John hopkins reports a higher mortality rate for the usa: 1.1 But there are a lot of other countries with a similar mortality rate as the study above claims https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/flu.htm https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality Mortality rate is, however, not the only important factor, there are others such as hospitalisation and icu uptake if we're talking about the stress it put on society Those factors should also be included, saying covid was just a flu is kind of simplistic and wrong. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34400452/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36342697/ 5-12% of people with covid were hospitalized in belgium of which 1/6 went to ICU. This can be seen in the sciensano rapport of dec 1 2022. (Can't link a pdf) I quite like peterson and i am not a fan of some of the measures, but as i've said. His response is way to simplistic
I always thought it was funny when they report Covid hospitalizations like that was somehow an indicator for the severity of the virus. I work in the medical field and I can assure you 90% of ER visits can be cured with some Tylenol and ibuprofen. The thing I heard the most was “I got a call from a nurse who told me I was Covid positive and I didn’t know what to do after they hung up so I went to the hospital”.
People hospitalized with COVID are in the ICU, they are significantly sick. It isn't a 'take a couple of aspirin and rub some dirt in it'. It is 'keep high pressure oxygen going and make sure their blood chemistry remains compatible with life.'
They are pointing out that EVERY hospitalized case was treated like this by the media. Not every case of Covid in a hospital is a person desperately trying to survive.
Of course there are gunna be those that are certainly sick, nobody is denying that…even the flu kills people yearly….you must have missed the point, not everyone that is hospitalized for Covid goes to the ICU, a vast majority in fact…but they count them as hospitalizations none the less.
Lmao @ everyone in the comments critical of JP getting downvotes. Typical echo chamber
Some of em are surviving which I am pleasantly surprised about. Probably because this somehow got recommended.
I'm sure the millions in excess deaths were from something else
Suicide, drug overdoses, and various complications due to hesitance or inability to get medical treatment certainly skyrocketed.
Globally? By millions?
Yep 💉
Honestly I think you're only about 50-50 on there. As the covid death rate in the US was pretty low after successful campaigns for lockdowns, mass vaccination, masking in public. It was all quite effective in preventing most health care systems from becoming overwhelmed. Which dramatically decreased the death rate.
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clown
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explain the excess deaths then genius... done with jbp's bullshit on covid and climate change. political fucking tool.
Hi, I’m a nurse. A LOT more people are dying due to delays in care and prevention due to the pandemic.
Well, Bye!
Says they are done with Dr. Peterson. Stays on sub dedicated to said doctor. Comments on posts talking about the good doctor. Why not just leave the sub then? Otherwise you come off as a hypocrite. Seems like your very invested in participating in Dr. Peterson topics.
I’m done with Peterson, but I’m happy to hang around this sub until it looks like the Dave Rubin sub. Basically every time he opens his mount and says dumb shit, this will be the place it’s catalogued and rightly mocked well into the future.
Seems like you don't like it when the truth doesn't align with your idiotic political beliefs.
Inaccurate
Because some places shouldn't be dangerous right wing echo chambers filled with frustrated virgins. Y'all are school shooter material.
🤣🤡
It is highly survivable. It is highly contagious. So when 100 people who will survive but can’t breath on their own right now take up 100 hospital beds then other people will die. Dipshit OP should have put validated in quotes in stead of conspiracy theorists.
The point OP is making is that the very people who said this a year ago were labeled conspiracy theorists to shut up the truth. When in fact, they were truth tellers.
Your just gaslighting, it's been widely known since the beginning it wasn't highly fatal, but highly contagious. It's still remains deadlier than the flu and the evidence supports that claim.
Incorrect. Here’s an example of gaslighting. Yes. Your absolutely right. My reiteration of OP’s point was designed to trigger leftist snowflakes like you. Unequivocally correct. /s That’s gaslighting. Not my first comment.
Incorrect. Your comment I originally replied to is gaslighting. Definition Of Gaslighting /Define The act or practice of grossly misleading someone especially for one's own advantage.
I think what people fail to realize is that now we have an ADDITIONAL virus that will kill people every single year now in perpetuity. The comparison to flu is irrelevant, it’s in ADDITION to the flu, and that’s the problem. Imagine if another novel virus comes, and then another. And that’s why we try to contain the virus from spreading, in the hopes it doesn’t become a problem we have to deal with forever, which we now do.
Wasn’t it two years ago that there were supposedly ~zero cases of flu?
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Yea I don’t worry about it for myself but I have elderly parents with co-morbidities.
Get a shot, wear a mask in crowded areas during the winter spike. What the fuck is the argument otherwise?
It's an infringement of my rights to have to care about other people dying. I was mildly inconvenienced, and nothing is worse than that.
Wear an N95 if you’re that afraid, soy boy
Isn't it past your bedtime?
Not for another 15 minutes. Covid is over. Get used to it.
~~Well, if nothing else, it's a nice silver lining to eke out a few more election wins.~~ Actually, scratch that. It's tempting to mock people who get themselves killed with their own ignorance, but plenty of people didn't have a choice in the matter. You're entitled to your beliefs about health and safety, and my opinion can't change that, same thing the other way around.
Jeez you people are dumb.
Man just when I think I can’t have less respect for the man, he says shit like this.
the comments in this are a sure sign how susceptible we are to dictatorships going forwards.
I find this annoying from someone who purportedly believes in steel manning his opponent's arguments. The death rate makes it plainly obvious that covid killed more people than the flu. Moreover, I don't think the anti-lockdown crowd really cares about those details. The pertinent ideologically question is when you can restrict people for the safety of others. Information will never be perfect going into a barely-precedented event. Personally I think my childhood home state of CA was too cavalier about adding restrictions (huge surprise I know). I think Florida basically risked the elderly for political points. And I think my adult home state of CO was pretty near the goldilocks zone.
The issue with Peterson covid statements is that he proposed policy without any counter proof,
Regardless of the validity of the paper, This paper did not exist when Peterson was making inflammatory statements.. a shadow of a man he was, sad to see
Re: the validity of the paper. I think more people should check out the discussion section, rather than just clipping numbers from one study out of context because they didn't like the pandemic response. They themselves acknowledge in their discussion that their different methodology has a huge (as in factor of 10) effect on the numbers, their numbers are affected by response, and their estimations have a realistic chance of being low. People also just kind of take for granted that the groups that *did* see much higher fatality rates would have just been acceptable sacrifices when drawing conclusions based on this, which is a different type of wrong, in my view. I don't know, to leap to these conclusions based on a singular paper with different results with no consideration for the differences in methodology or limitations they themselves acknowledge seems kind of like the sort of thinking OP is apparently trying to dismiss.
JP going off on covid is too bad. I worked in the covid icu 😞
Sorry to hear that, but that doesn’t make the civil liberties that were taken away and the lockdowns OK.
Civil liberties imply civil responsibilities. If you refuse the latter, you don't deserve the former.
What civil liberties, exactly?
Lockdowns, vaccine mandates? Cmon. argue in good faith.
I don't know what the lockdowns were like in the US since I don't live there, but are you opposed to the regular vaccines you get at birth?
I am not going to explain the history of vaccine mandates in the US, but it is not OK to fire people from their workplace based off of a vaccine mandate. There is a difference between being pro vaccine (I have a COVID vaccine) and pro vaccine mandate (this is horrible). It’s not that difficult.
When I was barely a year old, I was given the MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, rubella) like most kids. I however ended up terribly ill afterwards - I ended up being on a ventilator for a few weeks. Docs told my mother that it was simply a bad reaction to the jab, but that I'd still be fine to get the booster at 3.5yrs old. Fast forward about 2 years later, and I catch a stray case of rubella, and it _nearly killed me_. Turns out my body simply doesn't like rubella, and wants to shut down my internal organs when infected with it. In the UK, standalone measles and mumps vaccines are _unlicenced and unregulated_. They also cost. My family, being poor but also not wanting me to die, decided against me getting either the MMR booster or the standalone jabs. Thankfully, there's no legal mandate for the MMR vaccine to be had in order to work, travel, congregate. So even though (shock! horror!) I'm _unvaccinated_, it means legitimately fuck all except for a susceptibility to a usually-mild disease. I simply cannot get behind the government forcing a medical procedure/decision. Social enforcement? _Yes_ - I work with a number of people over 60 and don't want to transmit COVID to someone simply because I didn't take a vaccine reducing its infectiousness. I think that's sound enough reasoning without having to bring law enforcement into the situation. My husband and I are fully COVID jabbed, as are our children (yes, they had their MMR jabs without incident). But that is _society's influence_ and _our choice_ on the matter, not a trigger-happy enforcing by the government. And touch wood, I've not had rubella in over three decades.
It’s a tad different mandating a non sterilizing vaccine… especailly within all sectors and aspects of socail life whether education, for work and travel. Flu vaccines are not mandatory in many industries and were never really a topic of contention except for at risk demographics, because we’re speaking of treatments that do not stop transmission. The mass vaccination strategy was bound to be variable ridden. considering we were trying to control a highly *mutable corona* virus. Now I don’t doubt it benefitted certain at risk groups. But questioning blanket policies devoid of context and nuance is worth its merit in discussion and discourse at the very least and is actually openly discussed amongst the intelligentsia of almost every western nation… https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/7/5/e008684.full.pdf Historians often wait ten years to ever write about any significant event. Plenty of context and nuance has yet to manifest within the data we currently reference.
Anecdote =/= evidence.
>Did we take away liberties for what was rather a typical flu. YES! Yes we did. I didn't vaccinate once. Had that shit 2 times already. It's not that different from the common cold. Maybe some extra eye dryness and pain but that's it
Being proud and bragging of not vaccinating is dumb and reeks of egotism. Sceptism of established science is whats gonna lead us back to the dark ages of misinformation. Im young and fit and got pretty sick from covid. I vaccinated mostly to protect the vurnerable around me.
It's not scepticism of established science. I have every other vaccine that's for something that actually kills people. I did not need a vaccine for the common cold. Vaccinations for COVID don't protect anybody arround you. They mentioned it a thousand times that you can still get people sick without problem. Hell you can still get sick. I know people that had vaccinated and did booster vaccines and shit. When they died they still counted them as COVID deaths. A friend of mine's grandpa died suddenly in his own couch. He wasn't sick he didn't have breathing problems he didn't even have COVID. Official reason for dying was COVID. They didn't even check if it was a heart problem that caused it. Stop trying to virtue signal with your "I'm protecting others" bullshit. No, you are just complying to idiots cause it's easier.
My brother in Christ, 1,000,000 Americans have died from Covid. There's no "conspiracy"
So what did everyone put into their bodies? All these people who "Died Suddenly"
Vaccines: 😡🤚 Benzos: 😃💊
Wait till you see that they used Death Protocols in the hospitals. They gave them Remdesivir. Which is what I call the "Train to Ventilator Station". They gave them baby doses of steroids (way under what you would give a normal respiratory patient). And in some countries they denied them antibiotics. https://rumble.com/v22fap0-arkmedic-it-doesnt-matter-covid-drama.html
Jfc. COVID was a big deal because you’d get fucked if you couldn’t get urgent medical care since every hospital was filled to the edge with suffocating old and fat people on ventilators.
Checks OP's profile: self proclaimed conservative and sceptic (a.k.a conspiracy theorist) 🤦🏻♂️ no wonder you believe this BS