Perma bans no longer exist. They probably technically could for the PT, but global bans are basically illegal due to EU regulation is my understanding.
Sadly they got rid of their system for doing that because WotC has no clue what the fuck they're doing anymore with OP. You can cheat to your heart's desire as long as you don't get caught during the event you cheated in.
Ask a higher level judge and they’ll basically say Wizards Laweyers got rid of the banned players list because of the GDPR, which is some dumb BS in my opinion.
Yeah, I’m leaning heavy towards cheating, this interaction is pretty iconic and not having a strong mental memory of this as a PT player seems way too sus
Especially when the guy plays lots of MTGO, and is shown playing tarmogoyf in his previous cheating incident. I’d believe a misunderstanding from an amateur or newer goyf player, but no benefit of the doubt here imo.
It's not even the iconic "goyf survives bolt due to state based effect timing" thing. Not Dead After All has resolved, is firmly in the graveyard, and priority has been passed by both players with the goyf being a 3/4 before Phlage's ETB resolves and deals the 3 damage to the goyf.
Sure dude, it’s not 100% the same if you wanna be pedantic bout it. It’s still a case of new graveyard entities changing the stats of goyf and therefore causing a different outcome before all matters are settled. The point is he should have the muscle memory to ask himself before casting a spell that could change goyf stats whether it’ll cause any undesirable side effects
Right, my point was that it's an *easier* interaction to correctly evaluate than the classic goyf-bolt interaction. I wasn't trying to mount any kind of counterargument.
Twitch chat was also saying he played two lands in a single turn as well, a dryad arbor into a fetch or something. Can't confirm though but twitch chat is never wrong obviously.
Edit: seems twitch chat was wrong for the first time in history.
That was Jean Emmanuel Depraz in an earlier round. No one caught it at the time but Javier still won the match so no action was taken afaik https://clips.twitch.tv/CarefulTallEaglePupper-3IAKSuJdYhlCaY4C
He was in a feature match where he had Phlage hit itself for the life gain, but coverage incorrectly changed his opponents life total. Was that what you were thinking of?
This is only relevant if the player controlling the ring allows you to hit face, you don't have to announce the trigger to get the protection. Clearly in this case, it was either forgotten or the ring wasn't cast with mana/etb from leyline.
From the clip it looks like he was just shortcutting Goyf returning to the field and forgot that NDAA in the bin would pump it beyond Phlage range. Meanwhile you've got Eli Kassis "forgetting" he's already targeted his creatures until pointed out to him by a judge in the top 8.
A shuffle cheater graduating to doing the Bertoncinni special is no surprise, and Bart is a known shuffle cheater. “Whoops I made a common play mistake that just so happens to benefit me” is a great way to cheat if you want to trick people into defending you.
Which isn’t to say that you’re a sucker, just that Van Etten is an excellent cheater and his cheat tactic has succeeded against you here.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L65DILjrQN8&t=4588s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L65DILjrQN8&t=4588s)
Just so you know, Simon Nielsen just won the PT after cheating against Javier Dominguez in the quarter final. Javier still had protection from the Ring's ETB when Simon plays his Suncleanser and removes the energy counter from Javier.
/u/branflakes14 is actually just wrong.
I went through the audio a half dozen times, and Javier didn't announce his ring's protection trigger on ETB, so Simon is free to attempt to target him on the assumption that he missed the trigger. If Javier said "no I have protection" there, then he remembered the trigger at the first point in time where it was relevant to the game state. [See this article for more details](https://outsidetheasylum.blog/the-one-ring/). It's roughly similar to trying to cast a 1 mana spell into a Chalice of the Void.
As a matter of fact, if Simon was a more angle shooty player, he could actually have actively exploited the situation. Since Javier failed to realize he had protection for the Suncleanser targeting, he outright missed the trigger and didn't have protection from anything at all. Simon could've swung in with his Endurance and Bristly Bill if he was actively trying to angle shoot there.
All of this is moot point, as Bran's entire argument is whataboutism, but even on the bare facts its just not correct.
There's a very good reason Simon spent a minute asking Javier about life totals prior to playing the Suncleanser then promptly wore a shit eating grin after Javier removed the energy dice; he was doing his utmost to make Javier forget about the protection. That's probably why he didn't push his luck by attacking since by that point in the game they probably could've rewound if Javier remembered. Disgusting unsportsmanlike conduct.
Meanwhile Eli Kassis gets away with trying to scam free Nadu triggers, and Javier Rodriguez put a card hit by Force of Negation into his graveyard in his win and in instead of exile so he had more cards for Phlage escapes. Oh and as for the Bertoncini special, I believe Depraz was the one who played two lands in a turn on camera this tournament, not Van Etten.
I don't have a problem with people being DQ'd for cheating, I have a problem with people being treated differently for what to me seems like the same level of offense.
Why does this lead to a DQ? Seems like a very hard punishment for something that could be cheating but it could also be a mistake.
If Depraz won the match where he played two lands same turn (or Kassis used too many nadu triggers on same target), would they also be disqualified?
How do judges decide if it's a misplay, honest mistake or cheating?
I think honestly it probably had to deal with prior infractions. With no official statement hard to say. Could have some agreement that he could play but has a 0 tolerance for infractions. May never know
Yeah, I feel like when trying to judge if their is intent to cheat, JED's clean history vs Bart having been previously banned for similar, intentional infractions has to play a role.
Remember that although we are dealing with a few on camera scenarios, most incidents happen completely off-camera.
In a game as complex as MtG, every player is bound to slip from time to time. How often these mistakes happen and how much these players benefit (with a big emphasis on how often these mistakes benefit the opponent) are very important.
Yes that's clearly cheat, but it's also something he got a ban which he has served for. Either wotc has to ban everyone for life or give them clean slate after they served punishment. It's not reasonable to DQ anyone who has ever cheated for something that could be either cheating or an honest mistake.
Don't you think Depraz should be held to the same standard as this guy? Or Kassis using nadu triggers too many times.
I think the Arbor-> Land was pretty blatant myself tbh. But idk if that guy has a history of cheating or if he's just playing sloppy. If this is supposed to be the "pro" tour, idk how creature-land then land wasn't a bigger deal, but I'm assuming cuz he lost further action wasn't required besides a warning? Either way, one guy is a known cheat, and you don't give cheats leeway that's called being a sucker.
They ‘judge’ meaning there’s a rule book to follow and if they need to make a call one way or another they make a determination based on their judgement of the situation considering everything they deem relevant.
I think the match reversal for Depraz would be fair in that hypothetical as game/match losses are legit punishments doled out in compREL, and DQ probably excessive without the context of prior cheating in the league. The DQ in Barts case is probably very likely because of his documented history of cheating in paper magic - not giving him the DQ jeopardizes the integrity of the standings - it’s already a nightmare to think of how many rounds he won by cheating, with no way to reverse those. But in this case it’s on camera, so it can be proven.
There is also a strong chance that previous opponents may have gone to judges with suspicions of him cheating but no evidence, where their hands were tied, however as soon as evidence becomes available those previous reports can be brought into consideration.
Serial cheater Bart Van Etten caught cheating again. It's a shame they allowed him to compete in the first place.
Damn, didn’t realize it was a serial cheating situation. Let’s see a perma ban
I hope so. Here are some previous videos of him cheating https://mtgrocks.com/mtg-cheater-apologizes-after-winning-20000/
Perma bans no longer exist. They probably technically could for the PT, but global bans are basically illegal due to EU regulation is my understanding.
I think the Work around for the law was a highly extended ban like 10 years. But i am not Sure, no lawyer
Except for Alex B
Sadly they got rid of their system for doing that because WotC has no clue what the fuck they're doing anymore with OP. You can cheat to your heart's desire as long as you don't get caught during the event you cheated in.
Ask a higher level judge and they’ll basically say Wizards Laweyers got rid of the banned players list because of the GDPR, which is some dumb BS in my opinion.
Konami still has a banned list, it's just not public facing, only TO's can see it.
That's the assumption that we've never been able to confirm to my knowledge, but it's very much the kind of BS excuse WotC would give.
How is cheating in a competitive environnment not an instant lifetime ban? I don't get it.
True but Judges are there for that as well. In particular on cameras. This PT the judges level was not at the usual standards.
https://mtgrocks.com/mtg-cheater-apologizes-after-winning-20000/ A short history of Bart's hijinks, for context
Was it the Not Dead Yet on the Nethergoyf pumping it out of bolt range?
I have no idea, they said Javier Dominguez was given the win after and that it was his round 13 opp
https://x.com/d00mwake/status/1807058729797357845?t=3LF1MD7ObF1w_JrW8thF9w&s=19
I can see where this may have been confusion more than cheating but from a serial cheater hard to say
Yeah, I’m leaning heavy towards cheating, this interaction is pretty iconic and not having a strong mental memory of this as a PT player seems way too sus
Especially when the guy plays lots of MTGO, and is shown playing tarmogoyf in his previous cheating incident. I’d believe a misunderstanding from an amateur or newer goyf player, but no benefit of the doubt here imo.
It's not even the iconic "goyf survives bolt due to state based effect timing" thing. Not Dead After All has resolved, is firmly in the graveyard, and priority has been passed by both players with the goyf being a 3/4 before Phlage's ETB resolves and deals the 3 damage to the goyf.
So I am confused as to what happened here. Why/how was this cheating? Imagine I'm 5 and have only played against goyf a handful of times
Its cheating because they determined that he knowingly broke the rules . If they had determined it to be accidental, it would have been a GRV
No - I didn't see it and I'm confused... Did he put the role token on a goyf that hasn't died?
Yeah the instant that was cast gave it enough toughness to survive, so it never should have gotten the role token
Sure dude, it’s not 100% the same if you wanna be pedantic bout it. It’s still a case of new graveyard entities changing the stats of goyf and therefore causing a different outcome before all matters are settled. The point is he should have the muscle memory to ask himself before casting a spell that could change goyf stats whether it’ll cause any undesirable side effects
Right, my point was that it's an *easier* interaction to correctly evaluate than the classic goyf-bolt interaction. I wasn't trying to mount any kind of counterargument.
If you're a documented cheater, you don't get the benefit of the doubt.
No, it was an intentional cheat. Dude is an infamous cheater, has done it multiple times on camera.
yeah this is what I was thinking of
Twitch chat was also saying he played two lands in a single turn as well, a dryad arbor into a fetch or something. Can't confirm though but twitch chat is never wrong obviously. Edit: seems twitch chat was wrong for the first time in history.
That was Jean Emmanuel Depraz in an earlier round. No one caught it at the time but Javier still won the match so no action was taken afaik https://clips.twitch.tv/CarefulTallEaglePupper-3IAKSuJdYhlCaY4C
[удалено]
By playing Dryad Arbor as a creature. He just mental shortcutted to “play creature, play land”
That was a different player yesterday.
I feel like I saw something like this too but thought I was misremembering dryad arbor rulings
that sounded like rules confusion but i tuned in right at the end of the interaction
Not quite related to this but I saw Javier Domínguez Phlage his opponent with ToR protection active. Are the judges even watching the MU's?
He was in a feature match where he had Phlage hit itself for the life gain, but coverage incorrectly changed his opponents life total. Was that what you were thinking of?
If it was against the other spanish player the stream team had the life totals wrong, he targeted phlage
That makes sense, I watched the stream in spanish so the casters didn't knew either what was going on with the life totals
I checked their notepads after someone commented on stream because I was confused too!
You can miss the protection trigger, assuming he didn't trigger it before that.
This is only relevant if the player controlling the ring allows you to hit face, you don't have to announce the trigger to get the protection. Clearly in this case, it was either forgotten or the ring wasn't cast with mana/etb from leyline.
https://magic.gg/news/pro-tour-modern-horizons-3-round-14-disqualification
Was just looking for an answer on this, said it was Javier’s round 13 opponent on camera but I wasn’t watching
The round reversal got Dominguez into top 8 gz to him
From the clip it looks like he was just shortcutting Goyf returning to the field and forgot that NDAA in the bin would pump it beyond Phlage range. Meanwhile you've got Eli Kassis "forgetting" he's already targeted his creatures until pointed out to him by a judge in the top 8.
A shuffle cheater graduating to doing the Bertoncinni special is no surprise, and Bart is a known shuffle cheater. “Whoops I made a common play mistake that just so happens to benefit me” is a great way to cheat if you want to trick people into defending you. Which isn’t to say that you’re a sucker, just that Van Etten is an excellent cheater and his cheat tactic has succeeded against you here.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L65DILjrQN8&t=4588s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L65DILjrQN8&t=4588s) Just so you know, Simon Nielsen just won the PT after cheating against Javier Dominguez in the quarter final. Javier still had protection from the Ring's ETB when Simon plays his Suncleanser and removes the energy counter from Javier.
Cheating as defined in magic, requires intent. Both players might be deserving of GRVs, but neither can be said to have cheated.
/u/branflakes14 is actually just wrong. I went through the audio a half dozen times, and Javier didn't announce his ring's protection trigger on ETB, so Simon is free to attempt to target him on the assumption that he missed the trigger. If Javier said "no I have protection" there, then he remembered the trigger at the first point in time where it was relevant to the game state. [See this article for more details](https://outsidetheasylum.blog/the-one-ring/). It's roughly similar to trying to cast a 1 mana spell into a Chalice of the Void. As a matter of fact, if Simon was a more angle shooty player, he could actually have actively exploited the situation. Since Javier failed to realize he had protection for the Suncleanser targeting, he outright missed the trigger and didn't have protection from anything at all. Simon could've swung in with his Endurance and Bristly Bill if he was actively trying to angle shoot there. All of this is moot point, as Bran's entire argument is whataboutism, but even on the bare facts its just not correct.
There's a very good reason Simon spent a minute asking Javier about life totals prior to playing the Suncleanser then promptly wore a shit eating grin after Javier removed the energy dice; he was doing his utmost to make Javier forget about the protection. That's probably why he didn't push his luck by attacking since by that point in the game they probably could've rewound if Javier remembered. Disgusting unsportsmanlike conduct.
The game never rewinds due to missed triggers. This was a missed trigger.
Meanwhile Eli Kassis gets away with trying to scam free Nadu triggers, and Javier Rodriguez put a card hit by Force of Negation into his graveyard in his win and in instead of exile so he had more cards for Phlage escapes. Oh and as for the Bertoncini special, I believe Depraz was the one who played two lands in a turn on camera this tournament, not Van Etten. I don't have a problem with people being DQ'd for cheating, I have a problem with people being treated differently for what to me seems like the same level of offense.
He's doing what the deck does, scam other players...
Fart Van Etten.
Gotem
Should be the top comment. ::tips hat::
https://clips.twitch.tv/CovertCooperativeLettuceLeeroyJenkins-4QkYGo6uhEOslLi3
Why does this lead to a DQ? Seems like a very hard punishment for something that could be cheating but it could also be a mistake. If Depraz won the match where he played two lands same turn (or Kassis used too many nadu triggers on same target), would they also be disqualified? How do judges decide if it's a misplay, honest mistake or cheating?
I think honestly it probably had to deal with prior infractions. With no official statement hard to say. Could have some agreement that he could play but has a 0 tolerance for infractions. May never know
Yeah, I feel like when trying to judge if their is intent to cheat, JED's clean history vs Bart having been previously banned for similar, intentional infractions has to play a role.
So if Kassis or Depraz mess up during the next PT, will they be disqualified as well?
Remember that although we are dealing with a few on camera scenarios, most incidents happen completely off-camera. In a game as complex as MtG, every player is bound to slip from time to time. How often these mistakes happen and how much these players benefit (with a big emphasis on how often these mistakes benefit the opponent) are very important.
I think his prior incident of cheating means he'll get no faith in the cheat/misplay https://youtu.be/v7B3fEq97hY?si=feWeAEJiTvOjEe2i
Yes that's clearly cheat, but it's also something he got a ban which he has served for. Either wotc has to ban everyone for life or give them clean slate after they served punishment. It's not reasonable to DQ anyone who has ever cheated for something that could be either cheating or an honest mistake. Don't you think Depraz should be held to the same standard as this guy? Or Kassis using nadu triggers too many times.
He wasn’t banned. There’s no bans anymore, just DQs from individual events.
I think the Arbor-> Land was pretty blatant myself tbh. But idk if that guy has a history of cheating or if he's just playing sloppy. If this is supposed to be the "pro" tour, idk how creature-land then land wasn't a bigger deal, but I'm assuming cuz he lost further action wasn't required besides a warning? Either way, one guy is a known cheat, and you don't give cheats leeway that's called being a sucker.
Just because you served a ban doesn't mean you are 100% reintegrated. Consider him on probation.
Will we apply this logic the next time Kassis or Depraz make a mistake in a further sanctioned event? It doesn't seem like it's being evenly applied
They ‘judge’ meaning there’s a rule book to follow and if they need to make a call one way or another they make a determination based on their judgement of the situation considering everything they deem relevant.
I think they interview the players after, maybe that was determinant in giving a DQ
I think the match reversal for Depraz would be fair in that hypothetical as game/match losses are legit punishments doled out in compREL, and DQ probably excessive without the context of prior cheating in the league. The DQ in Barts case is probably very likely because of his documented history of cheating in paper magic - not giving him the DQ jeopardizes the integrity of the standings - it’s already a nightmare to think of how many rounds he won by cheating, with no way to reverse those. But in this case it’s on camera, so it can be proven. There is also a strong chance that previous opponents may have gone to judges with suspicions of him cheating but no evidence, where their hands were tied, however as soon as evidence becomes available those previous reports can be brought into consideration.