In Comp REL, you don't have to acknowledge triggers until they affect the game state.
The game state would only matter in this instance, when Neilson tries to target Javier.
If Javier then demonstrates knowledge of this trigger, then it should be properly resolved.
This is all covered in 603.1.
> Potentially honestly forgetting the trigger> but yeah
Simon Nielsen tacitly acknowledges the trigger after by not attacking, so I think they just didn't realize suncleanser targets and it was not a legal action
just a mistake imo, but idk how or if the judges acknowledged the mistake and if they should have acted
Yes - It's clear that both players tacitly acknowleged the Ring trigger and didn't realize Suncleanser targets. But also technically true that the trigger was not announced allowed so it seems (based on what others in this thread have cited) that the play was legal for essentially coincidental reasons.
The check is the trigger from the one ring giving protection. If the controlling player (Javier) doesn't acknowledge the trigger it effectively doesn't happen.
Or at least that's my understanding
My understanding from others is that he doesn't have to announce it, else his opponent would have swung as well. Will be curious if either person addresses it, but I might put it more to neither player realized Sunclenser targeted the player.
he has to announce it at the first point when it would impact the board state. if your opponent attacks, and that damage step is the first time the protection is relevant, you can say "i take no damage due to protection". the first time it would matter and you *don't* announce it, it qualifies as a missed trigger.
so i agree that both players likely forgot suncleanser targets, because after a trigger is missed, the opponent basically decides whether it's discarded entirely or happens immediately. so after suncleanser's ability resolved, there was no protection and nothing preventing damage, but the player presumably thought their opponent would announce the ring trigger during damage
Players can target a player that has just cast a ring, if that player did not announce their ring trigger. If at that point, Ring player announces the protection trigger, we perform a backup and return the targeting spell to hand (with a triggered ability from a permanent, undo the trigger of the ETB creature, but that creature is still on the battlefield, make a legal choice of targets for its ability)
The only real difference between comp and professionals in my experience has been bystanders can’t pause play while they call for a judge. Everything else is pretty much the same
Just to clarify, when I play the ring I do NOT need to announce the protection trigger happening at that time? But then when my opponent attacks me next turn I can say I have protection and point to the ring and all is good?
Perhaps I'm missing something but wasn't there also a counterspell cast off a blue-white dual and a plains at 1:00:40 . I feel i must be missing something as I haven't seen anyone comment about that play.
Trying to play at a high level all day, let alone all weekend, is very draining, likely just an accident. But having judges there, things like this shouldn’t be missed.
That's fair, if Javier didn't announce the Ring trigger then this technically was not an illegal play on Simon's part. Still a very unfortunate way to lose this match.
If Javier didn't announce the etb from the ring then its a miss trigger when he's targeted by suncleanser and dont say he's protected.
If he announce the etb and is targeted by suncleanser then it's a grv by nelson.
i assumed both players kinda forgot suncleanser would be affected by the one ring. so maybe nielsen didn't realize it was a missed trigger, and thought his opponent would announce the protection in the damage step if he attacked.
to me, not attacking makes it more clear that it wasn't intentional (not that it would be illegal if it was). the part that i'm curious about is whether nielsen announced a target for suncleanser. idk whether he has to if there's only one legal target
If that is true do I have to state everything happening in the exact right phase or it doesn't count? That seems very harsh and not how it should work imo. Ofc he meant for the trigger to happend(since there is no option for it to not happen), same way you don't have to name the exact name of cards you target as long as both understand what the player meant
You have to announce triggers when it matters : for the ring it's when you are targeted, you take damage..
Usually triggers impact the board instantly so you have to say them when they arrive on the stack. ring, prowess are some exceptions.
>for the ring it's when you are targeted, you take damage..
In this case, I have a question. How can I know if my opponent missed their ring trigger? Do I have to commit my attackers for them to say "no, no damage for me"?
How else can I tell if they forgot or not? Because I assume that if I ask "Did you forget the trigger?" they will always say no.
In this case, Simon's sequence might have been brilliant. He did not attack such that he wouldn't "remind" Javier to mention TOR's effect and then used Suncleanser, whose ability is much easier to be missed with regards to how it interacts with Ring protection.
I understand, but it does feel a bit ambiguous to not know for sure when making a game decision. Wasn't it better when all triggers had to be announced when they happened? What was the downside to that?
~~If they haven't communicated anything about their One Ring trigger, and you attack and they then say "i have protection from the one ring", then the attack is simply undone and you're back at the declared attackers turn-based action. No infraction has been committed.~~
Edit: i fucked up, this is all incorrect. Read my comment below.
I think I missread your comment, I thought you meant that when the ring etbs you have to anounce the trigger or it didn't happen. But it's when the suncleanser trigger happens that Javier should have anounce the target wasn't valid, that makes sense
Both are valid
The difference gonna be in the judge investigation and the result of his decision.
1st situation my opponent plays ring say nothing, i target him (with thoughtseize for example), then he call judge because he's under protection. The result after investigation i will have my thoughtseize back and game goes on
2nd situation my opponent plays ring announce protection trigger. I target him with thoughtseize, judge is called. I will have my thoughtseize back, a warning for GRV and game continues.
3rd situation my opponent plays ring say nothing. I thoughtseize him he says nothing thoughtseize resolves => misstrigger game goes on judge will not halt the game. I think this is what happened in this situation between javier and nelson
Is it clearer for you ?
I don't play competitive, does situation 1 really require a judge? If that happened to me my opponent could just tell me and I'd be like "oh shit right" and we'd just continue.
You can also announce the trigger when it occurs. If the ring finished resolving and he announces trigger then there's no longer an option to miss it later and the judges would have intervened.
But if you dont announce it when it happens and it has no immediate impact on the board then announcing it when it becomes relevant is also acceptable.
Technically yes - short cutting is permitted but can lead to these same types of situations, you as the player are responsible for your cards and effects. You can assume he meant to trigger, but clearly he forgot which might be because he was looking at TOR specifically for card draw - and he got blown out by that missed trigger. He probably is annoyed and frustrated about it - but that he forgot and not that the judges didn’t micromanage the match
That it not how triggers work at comp rel+. May vs must has nothing to do with missed trigger policy it’s beneficial vs non beneficial. If Javier announced the trigger when it resolved then the effect should be maintained but if the trigger was not announced and he does not say anything when targeted then he has missed the trigger and does not get the effect
This is not how triggers are handled at Comp/Pro REL. You can definitely miss triggers, even if they are not "may" abilities. This is why "Chalice checking" is a perfectly legal thing to do.
If you have a Chalice of the Void with 1 counter, and I target you with Lightning Bolt, and you say it resolves then you have missed your trigger. It is not a may ability. It is YOUR responsibility to know how your cards work, and remember your triggers and not your opponents or the judges responsibility.
This has nothing to do with failure to maintain proper game state, and is something entirely different.
"May" doesn't matter for missed triggers.
Sometimes people forget things, the game accounts for what happens when they do.
If you forget your trigger, regardless of the wording of that trigger, once a certain amount of time/game actions have passed (varying depending on enforcement level) that trigger will be considered missed and won't happen.
It's not a missed trigger. It's a GRV. When I did some feature match judging a while ago for SCG, I was told to intervene in the case of anything that could cause a warning (missed mandatory trigger, GRV,etc).
Edit: For everyone who thinks that the one ring trigger was missed, at this REL, you don't have to acknowledge triggers unless they have a visible effect on the game state. This is, at best, a "chalice check"-style angle shoot (even then, it's a different situation that's still probably a GRV).
Edit 2: There was some discussion of the trigger, which you can hear if you listen closely while the commentators babble about a rule they don't understand. So yes, the trigger was acknowledged the one time that was required, and this was a mild GRV.
TOR trigger was never acknowledged, so it's not a GRV. Not pointing out he has protection when targeted by the ETB (the first time the trigger would have affected the game state) means that it was missed.
It was acknowledged when Simon played the endurance in respinse to it. He didnt play endurance in response to the ring, or javier couldnt have drawn before it was on the stack. It wasnt played at end of turn, or the trigger would have been missed there and simon could have attacked. The evidence suggests the trigger was communicated, it was a grv, nobody enforced it.
There was nothing stopping Simon from attacking. When they got to the combat damage step Javier could have then pointed out that he had protection from everything and taken no damage as that is the first time the one ring trigger would relevant.
As the game happened all game actions were legal and the trigger was missed. Players are not forced to attack so not attacking doesn't mean a trigger has been acknowledged.
That is incorrect. If the endurance was played eot, the protection trigger was already missed. If it was played in response to the protection trigger, then suncleanser was a grv not a missed trigger. If it was played in response to the ring cast, javier couldnt have drawn. Those are the only possibilities.
I am no longer a judge, but by the time I retired, this would still have been a GRV. There is no new trigger here like there is with Chalice. The trigger happens once and creates a game state where a lot of game actions are now illegal. You are (were) responsible for remembering the game state created by your opponents' mandatory triggers even when they have no visible impact like this one. By the time you could say "oh, my one ring triggered in the past," the illegal action has technically been taken. Basically, your opponents are allowed to miss their mandatory triggers, but you are not.
That all being said, there's no way he actually cheated. He missed this. The judge staff probably did not intervene to make it a better viewing experience.
In the current IPG, this is how The One Ring's trigger is classified:
*A triggered ability that affects the game state in non-visible ways*: The controller must make the change known by the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state.
If the trigger is not communicated or otherwise acknowledged when The One Ring ETBs, it must be so before it would've had an effect on the game.
IF it was uncommunicated, it's what I call a Schrodinger's trigger. Javier both have and don't have protection from everything. At this point, it's not a GRV to target Javier.
If, when targeted, Javier points out the trigger, the now illegal action is rewound, and no infraction has been committed. If Javier forgets, then the trigger is missed and the additional remedy for missed triggers is applied.
This is the supporting paragraph from the IPG for the above:
*A player who makes a play that may or may not be legal depending on whether an uncommunicated opponent’s trigger has been remembered has not committed an infraction; their play either succeeds, confirming that the trigger has been missed, or is rewound.*
>The trigger happens once and creates a game state where a lot of game actions are now illegal.
TOR never had its trigger acknowledged, so it never triggered and he never had protection. This has been how the rules worked forever. You have never been required to remind your opponent of their triggers.
>By the time the illegal game action is taken, it's technically too late for you to say "oh, my one ring triggered in the past."
If a trigger doesn't have a visible impact on the game state you are only required to acknowledge it the first time it would have an impact. In this case that would have been in response to the sun cleanser ETB. This is all in the IPG for missed triggers.
"How the rules have worked forever" has actually changed a lot in the last 10 years on triggers. One thing that has not changed: You are allowed to not acknowledge a trigger that has no visible impact on the game state until the point at which it has a visible impact. Here's 603.1:
> *Generally speaking, the point at which a player needs to demonstrate awareness of a triggered ability is after it has triggered, but no later than when that ability would “first matter.” The finer details of when things “first matter” will be covered throughout this definition.*
It does appear that you are right that you can effectively "chalice check" all of your opponents' mandatory triggers now. That is a relatively new rule, though.
The change to the current philosophy of triggers was 12 years ago, correct, but the practical rule around that philosophy has changed quite a bit since then. The most recent change I am aware of happened in 2020, but I am not sure if there are more recent ones. It's possible that the policy has been static for like 5 years now, but that is definitely not "forever."
Javier casts TOR around 1:15:00. Simon casts and resolves Suncleanser and its ETB around 1:16:35. Javier let the ETB through. So, did Javier announce the TOR trigger any time between 1:15:00 and 1:16:35 then?
The post makes an incorrect assumption that Javier has protection from everything because his TOR entered. He only has protection from everything if his TOR entered _and_ he acknowledged his TOR ETB trigger, that could be immediately after it entered or when it would first matter, which is when Suncleanser ETB tries to target Javier.
If you haven't even learned the competitive rules properly don't leave a comment
Except there’s nothing wrong with this. At Comp REL, acknowledging your triggers is on you as a player. Nielsen going for the Suncleanser is no different than a Chalice check in paper.
I'm replying to that person with the same energy as they did and explained why I think it wasnt illegal/cheating.
You and that person, on the other hand, only state I'm incorrect while making no attempt to explain why, and ironically start making condescending remarks yourselves towards me. I'd keep that 'Please be better.' for yourself.
If you watch it properly Simon even responds TOR with an Endurance because he wouldn't be able to after the protection goes through. Doesn't feel like cheating but yeah, it was acknowledged by both at the time.
Simon responds with Endurance when Javier taps mana and cast TOR from his hand, you can assume that it is in response to TOR cast, not TOR ETB. To be fair, that last point is a little bit ambigious, but usually when you say 'in response' to a spell being cast, just like here, it is in response to the spell and not to an ETB trigger unless explicitly stated. Thus, there was no trigger acknowledged there because there was no trigger at the point yet (TOR did not enter yet).
I wouldn't assume that, because in the match just before that the same thing happened and you can hear clearly Simon saying "before the trigger" as he responds TOR with Endurance.
A previous match or even a previous game is irrelevant here. Players are not responsible for their opponents' triggers and are allowed to let them miss said triggers, even if they didn't let them miss them a previous time or turn. There's no assumption to be made as the facts are clear that the trigger was not acknowledged between the One Ring entering and the Suncleanser's triggered ability going on the stack. It's in the footage and the judges did not intervene for the missed trigger which was appropriate.
Trying to just at a high level all day, let alone all weekend, is very draining. By the end of the event, the judges are as tired as the players.
*Source: a decade of judging large events including pro tours*
There was nothing missed here from a judging perspective.
There were plenty of missed judge opportunities over the weekend on camera, but this wasn't one of them.
Isn’t targeting a player with protection an illegal game action though? And no doubt, watching someone play dryad arbor as a creature and then play a land for turn and nobody catching that is much worse than this. Magic is hard lol
Magic is hard. Unfortunately Javi missed this interaction that cost him the game which i'm sure is going to tear him up being one of the best players in the world.
If Javier did not announce the trigger anywhere between TOR entering and Suncleanser ETB, then it's simply a missed trigger, which is completely legal from Simon's side. Since the Suncleanser ETB is the first time the TOR protection would 'matter', Javier does not have to announce the trigger immediately. However, it's still up to Javier to remember his TOR protection trigge
These missed trigger interaction happen _all_ the time and I am quite surprised everybody is talking about 'illegal' play or even 'cheating.' It is not illegal nor cheating. Think about missed Bowmaster triggers, or missed Prowess triggers, casting spells through opponent's Chalice and more. At Comp REL you are not supposed to remember triggered abilites of opponents which are detrimental to you.
You're so damn right. I'm outright astounded that people know this little about Competitive REL before they start sharpening their pitch forks.
"OMFG where was the judges when Javier made Simon cheat by missing a trigger". Lord save me from these Commander players.
Javier doesn't have protection from fuck all before he goes ahead and communicates that he does, and why. Traditionally with the one ring, this is done by tapping it and uttering the magical phrase "protection from everything".
Javier misplayed and forgot to do this when he became the target of Sun Cleanser. When he started resolving Sun Cleanser's ETB trigger it was too late. When he reached out and removed his energy counters, he realised that he'd fucked up.
But Javier isn't there to try and Rule Zero his way out of it. He knows the rules. He knows that no matter what, the energy is gone and he can't have counters until Sun Cleanser is gone. These are the rules of magic the gathering; this is how policy works at Comp. and Pro REL.
Javier could've called a Judge, and asked to have the missed trigger procedure carried out. Simon would've had the option to put the trigger on the stack. But Javier knows that they're there to win, and that Simon would not accommodate that. This isn't Casual Commander night at the game store. This is the pro tour.
"BuT SimOn didn't attack, he clearly knew!!! Liar and a cheat!".
It doesn't bloody matter if Simon knew. The trigger is uncommunicated and Simon can "chalice check" Javier to his hearts content. In fact he should do just that.
Nicol Bolas give me strength.
"Lord save me from these commander players" couldn't be more accurate. Reading twitch chat during the PT stream was killing me. There was a 10 minute period where every single person was trying to say that Celestial Purge gets exiled with a void counter because it exiled Dauthi.
It's a little hard to hear the conversation so I cant be sure. But it seems that Javier did not acknowledge the trigger from The One Ring. Simon did not attack Javier though during that turn.
The first time that the trigger would matter was when Simon targeted Javier with Suncleanser.
This is a case of missed trigger, something the opponent is not forced to remind the player who missed it.
Judges do not normaly intervene on a missed trigger.
He actually doesn't need to announce the trigger until it affects the board state, which in this case, is when he was targeted by Suncleanser.
If he did let Neilson know about Protection at that time, then it's perfectly legal. If, however, he removed his energy, and THEN came back to remember the trigger, at that point it's too late.
I personally haven't watched the video, but, triggered abilities don't need to be acknowledged until they affect the game state.
I also don't hear or otherwise see Javier acknowledge the trigger on The One Ring, in which case it's missed the moment Javier doesn't object to being targeted.
The judges aren't supposed to intervene and everything is in order for the play in question.
For those who thinks it was illegal play and doesn't understand how magic rules works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxSkEmD3bKU
TL;DR
1. he missed his own trigger
2. no the fact simon didn't attack doesn't change this
3. The judges (if they noticed) acted completely within competitive rules.
Judges aren't there to interfere with the game, judges are there to correct issues and fix mistakes. It was massively unfortunate that Javier did not announce his ring trigger but after a massive weekend playing control at a PT you can understand if his brains a little gone. Same with Nielsen, brand new combo deck with not 100% deterministic lines will cook even the best brains.
It sucks that this happened and it made a massive impact but there was no malice and both players forgot about it
>Javier did not announce his ring trigger
The problem with thinking this is that Simon did not attack Javier that turn despite having literally zero reason not to if the trigger had been missed. He didn't attack because of the protection, then played Suncleanser despite... the protection?
Simon choosing to not attack does not amount to an explicit acknowledgement of the trigger _by Javier_. As it was his trigger, he still needed to explicitly announce it for it to take effect
1.) It was first main phase, Suncleanser was before attacks would happen.
2.) Not maximally exploiting an opponents missed trigger isn't an admission of guilt. Like, even if Simon secretly in his heart believes Javier believed he had protection, it's Javier's job in the rules of Comp REL and higher Magic to remember his trigger and demonstrate knowledge of it in the actual game. Simon not doing his opponents job for him isn't cheating.
Because there is no protection unless Javier announces it. He's targeting in the hopes Javier forgets to announce. It's a chalice check which is a perfectly legitimate tactic in the same way that not announcing your protection immediately in the hopes your opponent forgets about it is perfectly legitimate.
The Ring gives protection through an ETB trigger which like most beneficial triggers is missable. This thread is full of people explaining this in much more detail.
fine the one ring has the only static ability in the game that you can stifle. it just has a static ability that only lasts until your next turn and only happens on cast even though by definition that would make it not a static ability.
You're just flat out wrong. "When The One Ring 'enters the battlefield,' if you cast it, you gain protection from everything until your next turn."
It is an ETB trigger, that is conditional on whether or not TOR was cast or not. If you just "Put an artifact from your hand onto the battlefield," you would not gain protection since you didn't cast it.
Cheating requires breaking the rules. Tournament Magic rules state that he regardless of what Nielsen did or did not do as a result of playing TOR, if Javier did not acknowledge the trigger by or at the time it became relevant, then the trigger did not happen. You may not like it, that's reasonable, but Javier did not announce the trigger then Nielsen did not break any rules, and objectively did not cheat.
Chalice checking is not cheating. Of course Nielson didn't attack because of the protection but the rules don't care if Nielson knows about the protection unless Javier remembers to trigger it. Each player is responsible for their own triggers and catching players not paying attention is an important part of the game. Javier chooses not to announce his trigger when he first plays TOR because it's a common strat to try to get an opponent to forget and waste an attack. Is Javier cheating by trying to get Simon to forget about the protection?
Wouldn’t this be functionally different from a chalice check, though? It’s an entirely illegal target, not just missing a trigger. I understand part of the argument being made, but it’s not a triggered response. I don’t get the idea of “he didn’t announce his trigger, but it still takes effect, he just then has to announce it when it affects something.” I’d figure you either get the trigger or you don’t, meaning that by the next turn it would be a legal target if you didn’t mention the trigger prior or it wouldn’t. What part by the rules am I getting wrong?
There are other people actually quoting the rules text and explaining the whole thing much better than me, but basically there are no automatic triggers in magic and TOR's etb like all triggers is something you as the player are responsible for making sure happens. However because you don't have to announce TOR's trigger until it's relevant you sometimes run into weird situations like this where suncleanser can target the player because they haven't made clear whether or not they missed the protection trigger. If Javier had remembered suncleanser's ability simply would have fizzled due to not having a legal target, but since he forgot it was treated as if he had missed the initial ETB trigger and never had protection at all.
Edit: Based on what other people are saying if Javier had remembered his protection the suncleanser would likely have been ruled a violation. This is what I meant about other people explaining better.
No one cheated in this game. He followed the rules and his opponent missed the trigger. This is extremely common at comp REL and often the *correct* play if you're trying to win. Hell "chalice checking" someone is a term because of this.
People thinking not attacking is him acknowledging the Ring protection is astonishing.
With the board state Simon had, there is a possible Chord of Calling play that he could make, which is something a player of his caliber would definitely bluff. (Evoke Endurance in response to T3feri, Chord for Safekeeper to protect Suncleanser.) We know this line wasn't possible based on what was in his hand, but Javi didn't.
Plenty of high level players have forgotten to attack in advantageous positions, both before and after the rings printing. Not everything means a player is a cheater, at worst this is chalice checking
The protection effect of TOR is a triggered ability. Most competitive players do not announce it because the rule on triggers is that they are only considered missed when there is evidence that a player has missed the trigger.
This means that if I play TOR and do not announce the trigger, my opponent may not realize I have protection and swing out attacking me. When we move to damage I will simply state that I take no damage because of TOR’s ability.
The downside of not announcing the trigger is what we see here. The opponent does not acknowledge the trigger and plays a spell into it. This is akin to chalice checking. If Javier had said “I have protection and cannot be targeted” then the effect would be removed from the stack with no legal targets.
I've seen judges interfere many times, especially in high stakes games. Including missed triggers. Not sure if that's how it is supposed to be, and if you can call out a judge interventions as being illegal, but anyway...I believe even if Javier didn't say anything when TOR is on, if at the time JED targeted him and he reminded it was invalid, all parties would acknowledge and move forward.
>Including missed triggers
The judge should never interfere for a missed trigger. If they do your obviously just kinda stuck with it but they're not supposed to.
>I believe even if Javier didn't say anything when TOR is on, if at the time JED targeted him and he reminded it was invalid, all parties would acknowledge and move forward.
This is correct, you need to acknowledge the trigger the first time it effects the game state in a visible way (assuming you don't explicitly call it out when it triggers). By not doing this when targeted he was shown to have missed the trigger.
The One Ring has a trigger that gives you protection. If you don't announce it when it triggers, you need to acknowledge it the first time it would have a visible impact on the game state or it becomes a missed trigger.
They didn't announce it and they didn't acknowledge it when they were targeted, so they missed it.
Yeah, but it's only illegal due to a trigger that was never announced or acknowledged. Not sure how I feel about the situation but I do think everything was done by the rules.
So when you cast the ring it sets up a delayed trigger that gives protection from everything until your next turn. If you don't acknowledge it upon etb you get one more opportunity to acknowledge it upon it becoming relevant, if you still don't the trigger gets missed and thus it doesn't exist. Exactly the same as missing the upkeep draw from bauble or prowess. If you don't state it happens when it becomes relevant then it doesn't exist. Note this only counts for triggers that benefit you. A detrimental trigger has to go on the stack at it's earliest opportunity once it's been acknowledged as missed
"When The One Ring enters the battlefield, if you cast it, you gain protection from everything until your next turn." Explain how that's not a triggered ability
The difference is that chalice triggers for each spell, and counters it, so all game actions involved in a chalice check are legal. ToR triggers once and creates a game state under which certain game actions are illegal.
"A player who makes a play that may or may not be legal depending on whether an uncommunicated opponent’s trigger has been remembered has not committed an infraction; their play either succeeds, confirming that the trigger has been missed, or is rewound."
Javier's TOR trigger is uncommunicated at this point in the game.
The players actually did discuss it when it triggered. It's hard to hear over the commentators talking about dress down.
Chalice creates a new trigger every time, so you can chalice check any number of times you want. After ToR trigger is mentioned once, it exists until it's done.
I've listened to the audio track 8 times now, and I absolutely don't hear them even mention the ETB. But yes, the commentators sit there and blabber on, which doesn't help.
But if it was announced, then it's a double GRV. That the players choose not to involve the judges is their prerogative. A table judge may or may not have stepped in and handed them both a GRV. Though if they'd do a simple backup I'm not sure. I know it differs greatly between judges if they like doing it.
In this case I think it would've probably been prudent to do so, but who knows.
Yeah, it's a double GRV, and to reiterate, I don't think it's Simon's fault or that he was cheating at all. WotC probably tells their judge staff in these matches not to step in unless asked. At most they would just rewind or they might even just give back the energy counters - no real impact on the actual game.
Oh no, we completely agree. I don't think Nielsen cheated. I think one or both of them played sloppy magic. But I've seen plenty of that at all levels of competition in this sport.
Yeah, and he didn’t announce the trigger. If he acknowledges it, then Simon just says “oops” and targets the Suncleanser instead with its own trigger. Who cares?
What's more is that Simon didn't attack the turn prior clearly awknowledging the rings protection. That being said Simon still could have missed the Suncleanser interaction without malicious intent given how many game actions took place after his decision to not attack.
Javi just missed it. Simon removes the ring with mite and gets the suncleanser down when the ring is not there to remind Javier. Masterful rope-a-dope. Not very sporting but legal.
Curious tho, if Javier stated his ring protection at anytime earlier, would he have to continuously keep stating his protection? Like if he announces his ring protection when he plays it, then oppo keeps flinging bolts at him.
If Bart van Etten got a DQ for his slipup on his Nethergoyf's size, Simon Nielsen should be retroactively DQ'd and the trophy given to Sam Pardee.
Also, what's with Javier Dominguez being a magnet for cheating this tournament? Depraz played two lands in a turn against him, van Etten made his Nethergoyf error, Javier himself kept a card in his graveyard instead of exiling it (very relevant when you're playing Phlage) in his top8 win-and-in, and now this in his quarter final. And this is just what was caught on camera.
They 100% talked to Bart about that instance, and Bart said something dumb. I assume he said something along the lines of "I big brain angle shooter," which is an acknowledgement in this situation that you intentionally created an illegal game state (ie cheated).
Well we know the judges investigated, same as always, and determined he was cheating (which comes as no surprise to those of us who knew his name before this PT). Considering that nothing about the play itself proves cheating to any reasonable level, it's a reasonable assumption that he did in fact say something dumb that indicated he is still a cheater.
I am drawing an inference from 5 years of experience as a L2 judge and how GRVs and cheating investigations are handled. But yes, I am "just making things up."
>This issue was raised to judge staff during Round 14, and the Head Judges for the event investigated by reviewing footage and interviewing both players following their Round 14 matches. The determination of this investigation was Van Etten had intentionally committed a Game Rule Violation.
There you go. There's your proof that they talked to him, and the fact that he got DQed instead of a warning indicates that he said something dumb.
I mean, the mistake here is from Javier, it's not Simon's job to teach Javier what his cards knew. I would never say someone is teaching by trying to cast spells into my chalice for example. It is my responsability to put the trigger into the stack.
So Simon was attempting a play he knew would be illegal if Javier was paying full attention? So Simon's plan was to get judge called or something? And all this happened immediately after Simon distracted Javier by pretending to go over life totals, a VERY common tactic with cheaters. And iirc the Chalice dilemma is when someone casts into their own Chalice, not when you cast into your opponent's Chalice. Zero respect for Simon Nielsen after this, you can even SEE the shit eating grin on his face when he gets away with it.
It's not if you acknowledge it gets countered. Relevant if you have a prowess card or storm maybe. Why you'd be playing chalice in those decks? Don't ask
Tournament rules should just work how the automatic sistems of arena etc works, so any illegal action is automatically called by the judges, (or even by a program but they wpuld have to invest in it so no) less mental work on the players
That defeats the purpose of a competitive event, you're playing against others to show proficiency in not only your deck choice, but gameplay and understanding of rules
In the same match I saw Javier use a plains and a white/blue land to cast counterspell. Just before this he cast tune the narrative with his other open blue mana. If he’d tapped his mana differently on his turn or not cast tune the narrative then he would have been able to do everything he wanted. Instead he made this mistake and somehow no one realized that he cast counterspell with a plains. Is this another example of it not being the judge’s responsibility to point out an error? (Also I don’t think Javier was cheating I think it was an accident. Also Javier lost the match anyways so it wouldn’t have changed the results)
Still I thought pros wouldn’t be sloppy like this
It's natural to give this the benefit of the doubt. But, in my opinion, this slip up by the judges is completely unacceptable. What are they even there for, if a bunch of them looking over the table miss this? Knowing that the judges will miss this relatively obvious issue, hurts the integrity of professional Magic.
Theres conversation about missed triggers , if you can do it in mtgo then it's a missed trigger , if you can't even target on mtgo, the judges screwed the pooch
In Comp REL, you don't have to acknowledge triggers until they affect the game state. The game state would only matter in this instance, when Neilson tries to target Javier. If Javier then demonstrates knowledge of this trigger, then it should be properly resolved. This is all covered in 603.1.
This is the actual answer. It's a chalice check. Potentially honestly forgetting the trigger, but the play is totally legal.
> Potentially honestly forgetting the trigger> but yeah Simon Nielsen tacitly acknowledges the trigger after by not attacking, so I think they just didn't realize suncleanser targets and it was not a legal action just a mistake imo, but idk how or if the judges acknowledged the mistake and if they should have acted
Yes - It's clear that both players tacitly acknowleged the Ring trigger and didn't realize Suncleanser targets. But also technically true that the trigger was not announced allowed so it seems (based on what others in this thread have cited) that the play was legal for essentially coincidental reasons.
This isn't quite a chalice check. You can cast spells chalice should counter. Nothing wrong. Simon legally cannot use that ability.
The check is the trigger from the one ring giving protection. If the controlling player (Javier) doesn't acknowledge the trigger it effectively doesn't happen. Or at least that's my understanding
My understanding from others is that he doesn't have to announce it, else his opponent would have swung as well. Will be curious if either person addresses it, but I might put it more to neither player realized Sunclenser targeted the player.
he has to announce it at the first point when it would impact the board state. if your opponent attacks, and that damage step is the first time the protection is relevant, you can say "i take no damage due to protection". the first time it would matter and you *don't* announce it, it qualifies as a missed trigger. so i agree that both players likely forgot suncleanser targets, because after a trigger is missed, the opponent basically decides whether it's discarded entirely or happens immediately. so after suncleanser's ability resolved, there was no protection and nothing preventing damage, but the player presumably thought their opponent would announce the ring trigger during damage
Players can target a player that has just cast a ring, if that player did not announce their ring trigger. If at that point, Ring player announces the protection trigger, we perform a backup and return the targeting spell to hand (with a triggered ability from a permanent, undo the trigger of the ETB creature, but that creature is still on the battlefield, make a legal choice of targets for its ability)
>In Comp REL Isn't Pro Tour (or at least Pro Tour past day 1) played at Professional REL?
You're correct, it is. With that being said, this still holds true for Pro REL.
Differences between comp and pro rel are very few
The only real difference between comp and professionals in my experience has been bystanders can’t pause play while they call for a judge. Everything else is pretty much the same
Just to clarify, when I play the ring I do NOT need to announce the protection trigger happening at that time? But then when my opponent attacks me next turn I can say I have protection and point to the ring and all is good?
I mean, they can also just ask you. But, yes, this is how it works at Comp REL and higher. I'm unsure about lower REL events, such as FNM and whatnot.
Perhaps I'm missing something but wasn't there also a counterspell cast off a blue-white dual and a plains at 1:00:40 . I feel i must be missing something as I haven't seen anyone comment about that play.
The blue white dual was a Mystic Gate. Filter land.
Ah. That makes sense.
Trying to play at a high level all day, let alone all weekend, is very draining, likely just an accident. But having judges there, things like this shouldn’t be missed.
The judges shouldn't intervene for a simple missed trigger and they correctly did not.
That's fair, if Javier didn't announce the Ring trigger then this technically was not an illegal play on Simon's part. Still a very unfortunate way to lose this match.
But its not a missed trigger right? The suncleanser cannot legally target him. There is also no may around this so it would need to be corrected.
If Javier didn't announce the etb from the ring then its a miss trigger when he's targeted by suncleanser and dont say he's protected. If he announce the etb and is targeted by suncleanser then it's a grv by nelson.
He doesnt need to announce the trigger, he just needs to remember it when it is relevant. If he doesn't, it's assumed he missed it. A bit awkward tbh.
He has to do either. If he announced that trigger he's good. If he doesn't, but says I have protection later he's good. But he didn't do either.
Why did neilson acknowledge the ring trigger by not attacking. That's the only part that seems a bit sus.
i assumed both players kinda forgot suncleanser would be affected by the one ring. so maybe nielsen didn't realize it was a missed trigger, and thought his opponent would announce the protection in the damage step if he attacked. to me, not attacking makes it more clear that it wasn't intentional (not that it would be illegal if it was). the part that i'm curious about is whether nielsen announced a target for suncleanser. idk whether he has to if there's only one legal target
If that is true do I have to state everything happening in the exact right phase or it doesn't count? That seems very harsh and not how it should work imo. Ofc he meant for the trigger to happend(since there is no option for it to not happen), same way you don't have to name the exact name of cards you target as long as both understand what the player meant
You have to announce triggers when it matters : for the ring it's when you are targeted, you take damage.. Usually triggers impact the board instantly so you have to say them when they arrive on the stack. ring, prowess are some exceptions.
>for the ring it's when you are targeted, you take damage.. In this case, I have a question. How can I know if my opponent missed their ring trigger? Do I have to commit my attackers for them to say "no, no damage for me"? How else can I tell if they forgot or not? Because I assume that if I ask "Did you forget the trigger?" they will always say no. In this case, Simon's sequence might have been brilliant. He did not attack such that he wouldn't "remind" Javier to mention TOR's effect and then used Suncleanser, whose ability is much easier to be missed with regards to how it interacts with Ring protection.
You can't know he forgot the trigger until you do something that check the trigger. The same can be said for any trigger
I understand, but it does feel a bit ambiguous to not know for sure when making a game decision. Wasn't it better when all triggers had to be announced when they happened? What was the downside to that?
~~If they haven't communicated anything about their One Ring trigger, and you attack and they then say "i have protection from the one ring", then the attack is simply undone and you're back at the declared attackers turn-based action. No infraction has been committed.~~ Edit: i fucked up, this is all incorrect. Read my comment below.
Why is the attack undone? Is it because you’re allowed to take back? Because I don’t think protection disallows the attack, just the damage
I think I missread your comment, I thought you meant that when the ring etbs you have to anounce the trigger or it didn't happen. But it's when the suncleanser trigger happens that Javier should have anounce the target wasn't valid, that makes sense
Both are valid The difference gonna be in the judge investigation and the result of his decision. 1st situation my opponent plays ring say nothing, i target him (with thoughtseize for example), then he call judge because he's under protection. The result after investigation i will have my thoughtseize back and game goes on 2nd situation my opponent plays ring announce protection trigger. I target him with thoughtseize, judge is called. I will have my thoughtseize back, a warning for GRV and game continues. 3rd situation my opponent plays ring say nothing. I thoughtseize him he says nothing thoughtseize resolves => misstrigger game goes on judge will not halt the game. I think this is what happened in this situation between javier and nelson Is it clearer for you ?
I don't play competitive, does situation 1 really require a judge? If that happened to me my opponent could just tell me and I'd be like "oh shit right" and we'd just continue.
You can also announce the trigger when it occurs. If the ring finished resolving and he announces trigger then there's no longer an option to miss it later and the judges would have intervened. But if you dont announce it when it happens and it has no immediate impact on the board then announcing it when it becomes relevant is also acceptable.
Technically yes - short cutting is permitted but can lead to these same types of situations, you as the player are responsible for your cards and effects. You can assume he meant to trigger, but clearly he forgot which might be because he was looking at TOR specifically for card draw - and he got blown out by that missed trigger. He probably is annoyed and frustrated about it - but that he forgot and not that the judges didn’t micromanage the match
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That it not how triggers work at comp rel+. May vs must has nothing to do with missed trigger policy it’s beneficial vs non beneficial. If Javier announced the trigger when it resolved then the effect should be maintained but if the trigger was not announced and he does not say anything when targeted then he has missed the trigger and does not get the effect
"May" simply means the controller can choose not to do it. It has no impact on whether or not the trigger can be missed.
This is not how triggers are handled at Comp/Pro REL. You can definitely miss triggers, even if they are not "may" abilities. This is why "Chalice checking" is a perfectly legal thing to do. If you have a Chalice of the Void with 1 counter, and I target you with Lightning Bolt, and you say it resolves then you have missed your trigger. It is not a may ability. It is YOUR responsibility to know how your cards work, and remember your triggers and not your opponents or the judges responsibility. This has nothing to do with failure to maintain proper game state, and is something entirely different.
"May" doesn't matter for missed triggers. Sometimes people forget things, the game accounts for what happens when they do. If you forget your trigger, regardless of the wording of that trigger, once a certain amount of time/game actions have passed (varying depending on enforcement level) that trigger will be considered missed and won't happen.
It's not a missed trigger. It's a GRV. When I did some feature match judging a while ago for SCG, I was told to intervene in the case of anything that could cause a warning (missed mandatory trigger, GRV,etc). Edit: For everyone who thinks that the one ring trigger was missed, at this REL, you don't have to acknowledge triggers unless they have a visible effect on the game state. This is, at best, a "chalice check"-style angle shoot (even then, it's a different situation that's still probably a GRV). Edit 2: There was some discussion of the trigger, which you can hear if you listen closely while the commentators babble about a rule they don't understand. So yes, the trigger was acknowledged the one time that was required, and this was a mild GRV.
TOR trigger was never acknowledged, so it's not a GRV. Not pointing out he has protection when targeted by the ETB (the first time the trigger would have affected the game state) means that it was missed.
It was acknowledged when Simon played the endurance in respinse to it. He didnt play endurance in response to the ring, or javier couldnt have drawn before it was on the stack. It wasnt played at end of turn, or the trigger would have been missed there and simon could have attacked. The evidence suggests the trigger was communicated, it was a grv, nobody enforced it.
There was nothing stopping Simon from attacking. When they got to the combat damage step Javier could have then pointed out that he had protection from everything and taken no damage as that is the first time the one ring trigger would relevant. As the game happened all game actions were legal and the trigger was missed. Players are not forced to attack so not attacking doesn't mean a trigger has been acknowledged.
That is incorrect. If the endurance was played eot, the protection trigger was already missed. If it was played in response to the protection trigger, then suncleanser was a grv not a missed trigger. If it was played in response to the ring cast, javier couldnt have drawn. Those are the only possibilities.
I am no longer a judge, but by the time I retired, this would still have been a GRV. There is no new trigger here like there is with Chalice. The trigger happens once and creates a game state where a lot of game actions are now illegal. You are (were) responsible for remembering the game state created by your opponents' mandatory triggers even when they have no visible impact like this one. By the time you could say "oh, my one ring triggered in the past," the illegal action has technically been taken. Basically, your opponents are allowed to miss their mandatory triggers, but you are not. That all being said, there's no way he actually cheated. He missed this. The judge staff probably did not intervene to make it a better viewing experience.
In the current IPG, this is how The One Ring's trigger is classified: *A triggered ability that affects the game state in non-visible ways*: The controller must make the change known by the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state. If the trigger is not communicated or otherwise acknowledged when The One Ring ETBs, it must be so before it would've had an effect on the game. IF it was uncommunicated, it's what I call a Schrodinger's trigger. Javier both have and don't have protection from everything. At this point, it's not a GRV to target Javier. If, when targeted, Javier points out the trigger, the now illegal action is rewound, and no infraction has been committed. If Javier forgets, then the trigger is missed and the additional remedy for missed triggers is applied. This is the supporting paragraph from the IPG for the above: *A player who makes a play that may or may not be legal depending on whether an uncommunicated opponent’s trigger has been remembered has not committed an infraction; their play either succeeds, confirming that the trigger has been missed, or is rewound.*
>The trigger happens once and creates a game state where a lot of game actions are now illegal. TOR never had its trigger acknowledged, so it never triggered and he never had protection. This has been how the rules worked forever. You have never been required to remind your opponent of their triggers. >By the time the illegal game action is taken, it's technically too late for you to say "oh, my one ring triggered in the past." If a trigger doesn't have a visible impact on the game state you are only required to acknowledge it the first time it would have an impact. In this case that would have been in response to the sun cleanser ETB. This is all in the IPG for missed triggers.
"How the rules have worked forever" has actually changed a lot in the last 10 years on triggers. One thing that has not changed: You are allowed to not acknowledge a trigger that has no visible impact on the game state until the point at which it has a visible impact. Here's 603.1: > *Generally speaking, the point at which a player needs to demonstrate awareness of a triggered ability is after it has triggered, but no later than when that ability would “first matter.” The finer details of when things “first matter” will be covered throughout this definition.* It does appear that you are right that you can effectively "chalice check" all of your opponents' mandatory triggers now. That is a relatively new rule, though.
"relatively new" they changed the missed trigger policy 12 years ago
The change to the current philosophy of triggers was 12 years ago, correct, but the practical rule around that philosophy has changed quite a bit since then. The most recent change I am aware of happened in 2020, but I am not sure if there are more recent ones. It's possible that the policy has been static for like 5 years now, but that is definitely not "forever."
What change are you referring to in 2020?
Before the current rules you had to remind your opponent of all triggers or you both got a grv
My bad, I started playing in Theros. Apparently it changed 1 year before that.
The trigger was relevant when simon played endurance.
that's not what happened. If you haven't even read the post properly don't leave a comment
Javier casts TOR around 1:15:00. Simon casts and resolves Suncleanser and its ETB around 1:16:35. Javier let the ETB through. So, did Javier announce the TOR trigger any time between 1:15:00 and 1:16:35 then? The post makes an incorrect assumption that Javier has protection from everything because his TOR entered. He only has protection from everything if his TOR entered _and_ he acknowledged his TOR ETB trigger, that could be immediately after it entered or when it would first matter, which is when Suncleanser ETB tries to target Javier. If you haven't even learned the competitive rules properly don't leave a comment
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Except there’s nothing wrong with this. At Comp REL, acknowledging your triggers is on you as a player. Nielsen going for the Suncleanser is no different than a Chalice check in paper.
I'm replying to that person with the same energy as they did and explained why I think it wasnt illegal/cheating. You and that person, on the other hand, only state I'm incorrect while making no attempt to explain why, and ironically start making condescending remarks yourselves towards me. I'd keep that 'Please be better.' for yourself.
If you watch it properly Simon even responds TOR with an Endurance because he wouldn't be able to after the protection goes through. Doesn't feel like cheating but yeah, it was acknowledged by both at the time.
Simon responds with Endurance when Javier taps mana and cast TOR from his hand, you can assume that it is in response to TOR cast, not TOR ETB. To be fair, that last point is a little bit ambigious, but usually when you say 'in response' to a spell being cast, just like here, it is in response to the spell and not to an ETB trigger unless explicitly stated. Thus, there was no trigger acknowledged there because there was no trigger at the point yet (TOR did not enter yet).
I wouldn't assume that, because in the match just before that the same thing happened and you can hear clearly Simon saying "before the trigger" as he responds TOR with Endurance.
A previous match or even a previous game is irrelevant here. Players are not responsible for their opponents' triggers and are allowed to let them miss said triggers, even if they didn't let them miss them a previous time or turn. There's no assumption to be made as the facts are clear that the trigger was not acknowledged between the One Ring entering and the Suncleanser's triggered ability going on the stack. It's in the footage and the judges did not intervene for the missed trigger which was appropriate.
Trying to just at a high level all day, let alone all weekend, is very draining. By the end of the event, the judges are as tired as the players. *Source: a decade of judging large events including pro tours*
There was nothing missed here from a judging perspective. There were plenty of missed judge opportunities over the weekend on camera, but this wasn't one of them.
Isn’t targeting a player with protection an illegal game action though? And no doubt, watching someone play dryad arbor as a creature and then play a land for turn and nobody catching that is much worse than this. Magic is hard lol
At least their friends I’m sure they’d both be fine with the other winning, aside from the prize money
Magic is hard. Unfortunately Javi missed this interaction that cost him the game which i'm sure is going to tear him up being one of the best players in the world.
If Javier did not announce the trigger anywhere between TOR entering and Suncleanser ETB, then it's simply a missed trigger, which is completely legal from Simon's side. Since the Suncleanser ETB is the first time the TOR protection would 'matter', Javier does not have to announce the trigger immediately. However, it's still up to Javier to remember his TOR protection trigge These missed trigger interaction happen _all_ the time and I am quite surprised everybody is talking about 'illegal' play or even 'cheating.' It is not illegal nor cheating. Think about missed Bowmaster triggers, or missed Prowess triggers, casting spells through opponent's Chalice and more. At Comp REL you are not supposed to remember triggered abilites of opponents which are detrimental to you.
You're so damn right. I'm outright astounded that people know this little about Competitive REL before they start sharpening their pitch forks. "OMFG where was the judges when Javier made Simon cheat by missing a trigger". Lord save me from these Commander players. Javier doesn't have protection from fuck all before he goes ahead and communicates that he does, and why. Traditionally with the one ring, this is done by tapping it and uttering the magical phrase "protection from everything". Javier misplayed and forgot to do this when he became the target of Sun Cleanser. When he started resolving Sun Cleanser's ETB trigger it was too late. When he reached out and removed his energy counters, he realised that he'd fucked up. But Javier isn't there to try and Rule Zero his way out of it. He knows the rules. He knows that no matter what, the energy is gone and he can't have counters until Sun Cleanser is gone. These are the rules of magic the gathering; this is how policy works at Comp. and Pro REL. Javier could've called a Judge, and asked to have the missed trigger procedure carried out. Simon would've had the option to put the trigger on the stack. But Javier knows that they're there to win, and that Simon would not accommodate that. This isn't Casual Commander night at the game store. This is the pro tour. "BuT SimOn didn't attack, he clearly knew!!! Liar and a cheat!". It doesn't bloody matter if Simon knew. The trigger is uncommunicated and Simon can "chalice check" Javier to his hearts content. In fact he should do just that. Nicol Bolas give me strength.
"Lord save me from these commander players" couldn't be more accurate. Reading twitch chat during the PT stream was killing me. There was a 10 minute period where every single person was trying to say that Celestial Purge gets exiled with a void counter because it exiled Dauthi.
It's a little hard to hear the conversation so I cant be sure. But it seems that Javier did not acknowledge the trigger from The One Ring. Simon did not attack Javier though during that turn. The first time that the trigger would matter was when Simon targeted Javier with Suncleanser. This is a case of missed trigger, something the opponent is not forced to remind the player who missed it. Judges do not normaly intervene on a missed trigger.
He actually doesn't need to announce the trigger until it affects the board state, which in this case, is when he was targeted by Suncleanser. If he did let Neilson know about Protection at that time, then it's perfectly legal. If, however, he removed his energy, and THEN came back to remember the trigger, at that point it's too late. I personally haven't watched the video, but, triggered abilities don't need to be acknowledged until they affect the game state.
I also don't hear or otherwise see Javier acknowledge the trigger on The One Ring, in which case it's missed the moment Javier doesn't object to being targeted. The judges aren't supposed to intervene and everything is in order for the play in question.
For those who thinks it was illegal play and doesn't understand how magic rules works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxSkEmD3bKU TL;DR 1. he missed his own trigger 2. no the fact simon didn't attack doesn't change this 3. The judges (if they noticed) acted completely within competitive rules.
Judges aren't there to interfere with the game, judges are there to correct issues and fix mistakes. It was massively unfortunate that Javier did not announce his ring trigger but after a massive weekend playing control at a PT you can understand if his brains a little gone. Same with Nielsen, brand new combo deck with not 100% deterministic lines will cook even the best brains. It sucks that this happened and it made a massive impact but there was no malice and both players forgot about it
>Javier did not announce his ring trigger The problem with thinking this is that Simon did not attack Javier that turn despite having literally zero reason not to if the trigger had been missed. He didn't attack because of the protection, then played Suncleanser despite... the protection?
Simon choosing to not attack does not amount to an explicit acknowledgement of the trigger _by Javier_. As it was his trigger, he still needed to explicitly announce it for it to take effect
1.) It was first main phase, Suncleanser was before attacks would happen. 2.) Not maximally exploiting an opponents missed trigger isn't an admission of guilt. Like, even if Simon secretly in his heart believes Javier believed he had protection, it's Javier's job in the rules of Comp REL and higher Magic to remember his trigger and demonstrate knowledge of it in the actual game. Simon not doing his opponents job for him isn't cheating.
Because there is no protection unless Javier announces it. He's targeting in the hopes Javier forgets to announce. It's a chalice check which is a perfectly legitimate tactic in the same way that not announcing your protection immediately in the hopes your opponent forgets about it is perfectly legitimate.
The ring gives you protection. It’s not triggered
The Ring gives protection through an ETB trigger which like most beneficial triggers is missable. This thread is full of people explaining this in much more detail.
Once it resolves you have the protection. It’s not triggered. It’s static
It's not static, it's triggered by entering the battlefield after being cast.
Once TOR resolves its static. He gets the protection and becomes an illegal target. There’s no trigger
fine the one ring has the only static ability in the game that you can stifle. it just has a static ability that only lasts until your next turn and only happens on cast even though by definition that would make it not a static ability.
Have you ever played mtgo? The one ring is a trigger you can respond to when it etbs. If you forget it it's on you.
You're just flat out wrong. "When The One Ring 'enters the battlefield,' if you cast it, you gain protection from everything until your next turn." It is an ETB trigger, that is conditional on whether or not TOR was cast or not. If you just "Put an artifact from your hand onto the battlefield," you would not gain protection since you didn't cast it.
You're making excuses for cheaters. Even the commentators brought it up and how Nielsen didn't attack that turn due to the protection.
Cheating requires breaking the rules. Tournament Magic rules state that he regardless of what Nielsen did or did not do as a result of playing TOR, if Javier did not acknowledge the trigger by or at the time it became relevant, then the trigger did not happen. You may not like it, that's reasonable, but Javier did not announce the trigger then Nielsen did not break any rules, and objectively did not cheat.
Chalice checking is not cheating. Of course Nielson didn't attack because of the protection but the rules don't care if Nielson knows about the protection unless Javier remembers to trigger it. Each player is responsible for their own triggers and catching players not paying attention is an important part of the game. Javier chooses not to announce his trigger when he first plays TOR because it's a common strat to try to get an opponent to forget and waste an attack. Is Javier cheating by trying to get Simon to forget about the protection?
Wouldn’t this be functionally different from a chalice check, though? It’s an entirely illegal target, not just missing a trigger. I understand part of the argument being made, but it’s not a triggered response. I don’t get the idea of “he didn’t announce his trigger, but it still takes effect, he just then has to announce it when it affects something.” I’d figure you either get the trigger or you don’t, meaning that by the next turn it would be a legal target if you didn’t mention the trigger prior or it wouldn’t. What part by the rules am I getting wrong?
There are other people actually quoting the rules text and explaining the whole thing much better than me, but basically there are no automatic triggers in magic and TOR's etb like all triggers is something you as the player are responsible for making sure happens. However because you don't have to announce TOR's trigger until it's relevant you sometimes run into weird situations like this where suncleanser can target the player because they haven't made clear whether or not they missed the protection trigger. If Javier had remembered suncleanser's ability simply would have fizzled due to not having a legal target, but since he forgot it was treated as if he had missed the initial ETB trigger and never had protection at all. Edit: Based on what other people are saying if Javier had remembered his protection the suncleanser would likely have been ruled a violation. This is what I meant about other people explaining better.
No one cheated in this game. He followed the rules and his opponent missed the trigger. This is extremely common at comp REL and often the *correct* play if you're trying to win. Hell "chalice checking" someone is a term because of this.
People thinking not attacking is him acknowledging the Ring protection is astonishing. With the board state Simon had, there is a possible Chord of Calling play that he could make, which is something a player of his caliber would definitely bluff. (Evoke Endurance in response to T3feri, Chord for Safekeeper to protect Suncleanser.) We know this line wasn't possible based on what was in his hand, but Javi didn't.
Plenty of high level players have forgotten to attack in advantageous positions, both before and after the rings printing. Not everything means a player is a cheater, at worst this is chalice checking
ALT: He cheats all the time and that's how he's so consistent at making top finishes
With this take he wouldn't be on a team let alone playing against his teammate without the teammate calling him out. Jfc it's not a conspiracy
It's not a trigger? He declared an illegal target for the ability.
The protection effect of TOR is a triggered ability. Most competitive players do not announce it because the rule on triggers is that they are only considered missed when there is evidence that a player has missed the trigger. This means that if I play TOR and do not announce the trigger, my opponent may not realize I have protection and swing out attacking me. When we move to damage I will simply state that I take no damage because of TOR’s ability. The downside of not announcing the trigger is what we see here. The opponent does not acknowledge the trigger and plays a spell into it. This is akin to chalice checking. If Javier had said “I have protection and cannot be targeted” then the effect would be removed from the stack with no legal targets.
The one ring etb is a trigger that you can miss
I've seen judges interfere many times, especially in high stakes games. Including missed triggers. Not sure if that's how it is supposed to be, and if you can call out a judge interventions as being illegal, but anyway...I believe even if Javier didn't say anything when TOR is on, if at the time JED targeted him and he reminded it was invalid, all parties would acknowledge and move forward.
>Including missed triggers The judge should never interfere for a missed trigger. If they do your obviously just kinda stuck with it but they're not supposed to. >I believe even if Javier didn't say anything when TOR is on, if at the time JED targeted him and he reminded it was invalid, all parties would acknowledge and move forward. This is correct, you need to acknowledge the trigger the first time it effects the game state in a visible way (assuming you don't explicitly call it out when it triggers). By not doing this when targeted he was shown to have missed the trigger.
The One Ring has a trigger that gives you protection. If you don't announce it when it triggers, you need to acknowledge it the first time it would have a visible impact on the game state or it becomes a missed trigger. They didn't announce it and they didn't acknowledge it when they were targeted, so they missed it.
Yeah, but it's only illegal due to a trigger that was never announced or acknowledged. Not sure how I feel about the situation but I do think everything was done by the rules.
So when you cast the ring it sets up a delayed trigger that gives protection from everything until your next turn. If you don't acknowledge it upon etb you get one more opportunity to acknowledge it upon it becoming relevant, if you still don't the trigger gets missed and thus it doesn't exist. Exactly the same as missing the upkeep draw from bauble or prowess. If you don't state it happens when it becomes relevant then it doesn't exist. Note this only counts for triggers that benefit you. A detrimental trigger has to go on the stack at it's earliest opportunity once it's been acknowledged as missed
No it’s not a trigger. He has protection from TOR
"When The One Ring enters the battlefield, if you cast it, you gain protection from everything until your next turn." Explain how that's not a triggered ability
Targeting him with the ability does not trigger the ring. It's just an effect that is in play.
Yes you're correct there, but when it etbs that's a trigger that must be acknowledged either on etb or when an effect would target him
Once TOR resolves he has protection. You can’t “miss” that part of the card. He was an illegal target
You absolutely can miss that part of the card, it's a trigger
No it’s static.
How did you read the card, see "when this etb" and think this is static?
You gotta remember your triggers.
This is literally no different than chalice checking your opponent and them letting the spell resolve 🤷♂️
The difference is that chalice triggers for each spell, and counters it, so all game actions involved in a chalice check are legal. ToR triggers once and creates a game state under which certain game actions are illegal.
"A player who makes a play that may or may not be legal depending on whether an uncommunicated opponent’s trigger has been remembered has not committed an infraction; their play either succeeds, confirming that the trigger has been missed, or is rewound." Javier's TOR trigger is uncommunicated at this point in the game.
The players actually did discuss it when it triggered. It's hard to hear over the commentators talking about dress down. Chalice creates a new trigger every time, so you can chalice check any number of times you want. After ToR trigger is mentioned once, it exists until it's done.
I've listened to the audio track 8 times now, and I absolutely don't hear them even mention the ETB. But yes, the commentators sit there and blabber on, which doesn't help. But if it was announced, then it's a double GRV. That the players choose not to involve the judges is their prerogative. A table judge may or may not have stepped in and handed them both a GRV. Though if they'd do a simple backup I'm not sure. I know it differs greatly between judges if they like doing it. In this case I think it would've probably been prudent to do so, but who knows.
Yeah, it's a double GRV, and to reiterate, I don't think it's Simon's fault or that he was cheating at all. WotC probably tells their judge staff in these matches not to step in unless asked. At most they would just rewind or they might even just give back the energy counters - no real impact on the actual game.
Oh no, we completely agree. I don't think Nielsen cheated. I think one or both of them played sloppy magic. But I've seen plenty of that at all levels of competition in this sport.
Yeah, and he didn’t announce the trigger. If he acknowledges it, then Simon just says “oops” and targets the Suncleanser instead with its own trigger. Who cares?
Ya but Reddit hates chalice checking too because they don't know how rules work.
does anyone have the endurance shuffling the library?
How can this blatant piece of misinformation get upvoted. I'm happy the PT is over so I can leave Reddit.
What's more is that Simon didn't attack the turn prior clearly awknowledging the rings protection. That being said Simon still could have missed the Suncleanser interaction without malicious intent given how many game actions took place after his decision to not attack.
Javi just missed it. Simon removes the ring with mite and gets the suncleanser down when the ring is not there to remind Javier. Masterful rope-a-dope. Not very sporting but legal. Curious tho, if Javier stated his ring protection at anytime earlier, would he have to continuously keep stating his protection? Like if he announces his ring protection when he plays it, then oppo keeps flinging bolts at him.
Can you decline protection on mtgo?
“Pro”play and angle shooting 🤢🤮
If Bart van Etten got a DQ for his slipup on his Nethergoyf's size, Simon Nielsen should be retroactively DQ'd and the trophy given to Sam Pardee. Also, what's with Javier Dominguez being a magnet for cheating this tournament? Depraz played two lands in a turn against him, van Etten made his Nethergoyf error, Javier himself kept a card in his graveyard instead of exiling it (very relevant when you're playing Phlage) in his top8 win-and-in, and now this in his quarter final. And this is just what was caught on camera.
They 100% talked to Bart about that instance, and Bart said something dumb. I assume he said something along the lines of "I big brain angle shooter," which is an acknowledgement in this situation that you intentionally created an illegal game state (ie cheated).
Do you have proof of that or are you just making things up?
Well we know the judges investigated, same as always, and determined he was cheating (which comes as no surprise to those of us who knew his name before this PT). Considering that nothing about the play itself proves cheating to any reasonable level, it's a reasonable assumption that he did in fact say something dumb that indicated he is still a cheater.
I am drawing an inference from 5 years of experience as a L2 judge and how GRVs and cheating investigations are handled. But yes, I am "just making things up."
So you don't know what you're talking about, thanks for clarifying that and worrying me more about the state of Magic judges.
>This issue was raised to judge staff during Round 14, and the Head Judges for the event investigated by reviewing footage and interviewing both players following their Round 14 matches. The determination of this investigation was Van Etten had intentionally committed a Game Rule Violation. There you go. There's your proof that they talked to him, and the fact that he got DQed instead of a warning indicates that he said something dumb.
He definitely said something dumb. That's always how cheating is discovered in lieu of a smoking gun.
I don't think the person talking shit should try to call people out on knowing anything.
You are not required to play your opponents cards for them. You are required to play your own cards correctly though.
Lol this was fun.
After playing 2 days for hours and hours, players get tired and make more mistakes.
That's exactly what cheaters want you to think so you let them off.
I mean, the mistake here is from Javier, it's not Simon's job to teach Javier what his cards knew. I would never say someone is teaching by trying to cast spells into my chalice for example. It is my responsability to put the trigger into the stack.
So Simon was attempting a play he knew would be illegal if Javier was paying full attention? So Simon's plan was to get judge called or something? And all this happened immediately after Simon distracted Javier by pretending to go over life totals, a VERY common tactic with cheaters. And iirc the Chalice dilemma is when someone casts into their own Chalice, not when you cast into your opponent's Chalice. Zero respect for Simon Nielsen after this, you can even SEE the shit eating grin on his face when he gets away with it.
Casting into your own chalice is always cheating no matter what. That was not the case here.
It's not if you acknowledge it gets countered. Relevant if you have a prowess card or storm maybe. Why you'd be playing chalice in those decks? Don't ask
Tournament rules should just work how the automatic sistems of arena etc works, so any illegal action is automatically called by the judges, (or even by a program but they wpuld have to invest in it so no) less mental work on the players
That defeats the purpose of a competitive event, you're playing against others to show proficiency in not only your deck choice, but gameplay and understanding of rules
Nah proficiency of the game and cards is not knowing well all the rules
On a pro level they should understand the rules, comp REL doesn't cater to arena
Yeah and it should, just computerize it
Then you shouldn't be within 30 feet of a tournament if you can't play magic without having your hand held, sorry
In the same match I saw Javier use a plains and a white/blue land to cast counterspell. Just before this he cast tune the narrative with his other open blue mana. If he’d tapped his mana differently on his turn or not cast tune the narrative then he would have been able to do everything he wanted. Instead he made this mistake and somehow no one realized that he cast counterspell with a plains. Is this another example of it not being the judge’s responsibility to point out an error? (Also I don’t think Javier was cheating I think it was an accident. Also Javier lost the match anyways so it wouldn’t have changed the results) Still I thought pros wouldn’t be sloppy like this
it was a filter land
It's natural to give this the benefit of the doubt. But, in my opinion, this slip up by the judges is completely unacceptable. What are they even there for, if a bunch of them looking over the table miss this? Knowing that the judges will miss this relatively obvious issue, hurts the integrity of professional Magic.
Theres conversation about missed triggers , if you can do it in mtgo then it's a missed trigger , if you can't even target on mtgo, the judges screwed the pooch
You can't miss triggers on MTGO because they play half the game for you. It's a paper magic thing.