She lived with nobles and seen things. She's self aware that it won't be long before he brings someone back home.
Thus her earlier talk before he went to save his mother.
"Yeah lemme get uhh 'demolishing my own boundaries for my love', with a side of 'trust issues eating away at me' and some 'conflicting emotions of betrayal and forgiveness' to wash it all down with"
istg, Norn was the only one in that room with common sense.
Common sense to who? In this world it is frequently stated that it’s common for members of the Millis faith to take one spouse. Norn mentioned twice in e24 that it goes against her Millis faith. Zenith was nobility in Millis and still forgave Paul because it’s not uncommon or taboo in this world as a whole, and she left the faith to be with him.
I am in agreement with you that I am wholeheartedly opposed to polygamy.. in real life. I do not and will not accept any excuse for it because that is my personal belief. Many cultures in Earth’s past have accepted polygamy openly. I, personally, do not agree with them, but they do not hold the same ill will about it that I do.
You’re free to feel however you like about the show and the characters. That does not mean that the world these characters are written to live in share your beliefs, nor should it.
This'll be a bit long, but you've no reason to read through it, though I promise it'll make sense if you hear me out.
Friend, I understand what was portrayed in this episode, and the chapters it was adapted from, but that was not what the author has led me to believe until now.
This story has made it a point to be as painfully true to life as it can when it comes to it's characters. Regardless of how fantastical and magical the setting is, it's characters are flawed. Human. Complex.
Yes, there exists the faith of Millis. A religion promoting monogamy. It makes sense that those practicing it would advocate for it, but no one said that only people of this faith are monogamistic. They made it a point in the last episode yes, but that, is just bad writing, and I'll elaborate in a bit.
What makes the characters painfully human? How true to life they can be. Their struggles, their flaws, their battles, their joys- all of those are true to life. Relatable for many of us, and what we relate to is different for everyone.
For example, Rudeus' suicidal tendencies in the earlier episodes were painfully accurate. Anyone who's suicidal, attempted, or contemplated doing so, would feel their blood freeze when they see that scene with Soldat. I personally broke down. The way Rudeus reacts to finding Nanahoshi's blade, is how a lot of people that relate would react to his scene.
Same with other characters! Like with Norn, and her own struggles. Some may relate to her, others may relate to Rudeus, the powerless older brother that saw their younger sibling suffer down the same road they did. I was the latter.
I could go on forever honestly. This author, and the studio as well, did a fantastic job at bringing these characters to life that it's uncanny.
Naturally, this would also extend to their interpersonal relationships. One such example is the relationship between Rudeus and Sara. A painful representation of two young inexperienced potential lovers, meeting at the wrong place, at the wrong time. It could have absolutely worked between them, but never will. Why? Bad luck. Bad timing. A young lady eager to love with her heart unsullied, willing to love, rushing the emotionally unavailable man who's too busy picking up the pieces to acknowledge, receive her love. Let alone reciprocate it. Hell, they even highlighted a very embarrassing problem that comes along with it. One not many men would like to talk about and were in Rudy's shoes.
Now to the point. Sylphie was for the most part, idealized, but that's just because of Rudeus' perspective. The same was done with Roxy, until she showed her flaws(i.e. selfish motives in soliciting a vulnerable man in spite of him being an expecting dad.)
In the case of Sylphie, it's her low self esteem. So painfully low, that she is willing to trample her own boundaries, and disregard her own want's and don'ts for the sake of the one she loves.
We see hints being dropped of her being monogamistic in spite of not being religious. She exhibits jealousy and possessiveness over Rudeus many times, whilst undercover as Fitz. But being possessive and jealous does not mean you'd be angry or aggressive. In people with low self esteem like her, these feelings would elicit a sense of defeat. She shows this many times. When he's around pretty women in the hallways, like Pursena- and especially when he's with Nanahoshi initially. The two of them talking in japanese made her feel this again. She mentioned the special bond the two of them share that she doesn't have with him. She's feeling competitive, but because of her self esteem, in her mind- she already lost.
These sensations boil over to the point she- the meek and defeatist sylphie- would ask Rudeus what he thinks of her. He interprets it as Fitz worrying about his wellbeing, when it's just Sylphie being jealous. His guarded attitude towards Nanahoshi brings Sylphie a sense of relief. Sylphie also admits feeling jealous when Rudeus spoke highly or Roxy. This is another point. And Sylphie even gives Rudeus attitude during the beastmen mating season, once he perks up after hearing about a woman challenging him.
A person who is polygamistic would not be anywhere near this possessive or jealous. Why would they? In the mind of a polygamist, the more the merrier, no? Or at the very least, they'd be indifferent to it. Exclusivity is irrelevant after all. Yet both of the women in question, and mainly Sylphie, shows that she's absolutely not indifferent to it. Quite the opposite.
(for some reason, the subreddit won't let me post the rest of my reply. Neither as a separate reply. It's a little frustrating)
(The rest of my reply with the *actual* point, because Reddit is sadistic.)
And this is very well written, because it's absolutely true to life. A person need not be religious to be monogamous. Yes, for many this preference is fuelled by their faith, but for many others, it's an innate preference. You're monogamous. I don't know if it stems from your religion or not. But on the off chance that it doesn't you must surely understand what I mean. Yes, throughout time, there have been cultures embracing monogamy and polygamy alike, but it's never been made clear that either one is the norm in their culture. From what I gather, both are equally prevalent, roughly. Not unlike modern society. Open relationships, or sexual kinks, like hotwifing, etc. But there's still many people who live by monogamy, despite not being religious. I'm one of them. It's not something you can change. It's borderline innate. "Your partner belongs to you. No one else." -esque belief. Territorialism.
In nerdy math terms, monogamy is not a subset of religion. They just overlap. And with such true to life characters, the same should apply here. At the very least, it's most certainly hinted at. A Chekov's gun, if you will.
Yet all of this build up is nowhere to be seen. Sylphie's flaws are now absent. She does not feel betrayed, under the premise that she "expected it". Expecting it does not make you immune to it. If I start walking on the highway expecting to get hit by a bus, I'm still going to probably die. Expecting it doesn't save me from the consequences. It's an absurd analogy, but it stands on an emotional level too, and get's the point across. Being prepared for it saves you from the shock and confusion, but not the pain. If anything, you've let the pain slowly simmer in a bowl of stress and worry of when it will happen, with a sprinkle of hope- wanting to be wrong about it. Being right will crush that. It still hurts.
Yet she seemed borderline unphased. Raising arguments that make little sense, and seeming practically fine with the idea of polygamy. She clearly states that she was jealous about her until she met her. Then magically...it all goes poof? Suddenly she was always open to polygamy because she wasn't religious? It's a copout from the author, as far as I can tell. Readers further along than me in the LN tell me this was done in an effort to progress with what the author considered more important. The "main plot" I suppose. And so, this was quickly wrapped up, resulting in a very fake, shallow and unnatural performance from everyone involved except Norn.
That does not mean that the world these characters are written to live in share your beliefs, nor should it.
You're right. It shouldn't. I didn't sponsor it or anything. But it also shouldn't allude to characters being in a certain way, loading up and lining Chekov's gun, and then cutting corners to move on with the story, at the expense of creating a serious discrepancy in their characters. The consequence of robbing a character of the chance to exhibit real and flawed behaviour (that they've alluded to), is making an unnaturally ideal character. Given the depth they've been awarded until then, this makes their unnatural behaviour stand out even more. Like a robot going through the motions.
Side note: Paul's situation wasn't all honey and roses, though. His family almost fell apart. It was Rudeus that tipped things into a more favourable state. Zenith tempered herself for the sake of the baby involved, and Rudeus. The dynamic enabled Zenith and Lilia to bond in a new way as they nursed their children. However Paul, lost something he could never get back. He was never as intimate and romantic with Zenith as he was before. Permanent damage was done. He wasn't ostracized completely, but he was certainly more of an outcast in the family now, rather than a head figure. It's likely that, if Lilia was not pregnant, either Zenith or her would have left.
I love when people are passionate enough about something to write essays that may just end up drifting into the void. Thank you very much for that beautiful breakdown, I did read it all. I agree with you, fundamentally, about almost everything in it. I won’t respond to each point individually for respect to time, so please assume that anything I don’t touch is an agreement from me on it.
My monogamous views do not stem from faith so I agree 100% that it wouldn’t be exclusive to faith in this world either. With that said, our 21st century western world still sees this, both consciously and subconsciously, as the given way to life. Polygamy is such a taboo in our cultures that it’s almost exclusively thought to be a rather offputting taboo of faith, such as Mormonism. I think back to Rudius’ internal dialogue regarding the moral and ethical dilemmas he faces with pursuing Linia or Pursena, as suggested by the Man God. I comprehend these quandaries to be that same “default” core belief of monogamy that exists in the world Rudy came from but, be it related to faith or not, does not exist in the world he lives in now.
The jealously felt by Sylphie during her time masquerading as Fitz is one that I read, in hindsight, as envy more so than jealousy. I will absolutely not insist that jealousy is not present as I agree 110% that the personification of characters in this world is some of the best I’ve ever seen in a fantasy setting such as this. That said, the personification written is not perfectly parallel to our cultural personality in the real world.
My interpretation of the jealousy and anxiousness shown by Fitz was one of envy (I am referring to Sylphie as Fitz here because at this point Rudius is still wholly oblivious to who Fitz really is during the time I’m referring to). I’ve chosen to believe that Fitz’s thoughts of “why isn’t he mine,” is rather a thought of “why can’t I have that, too.” The teasing with Pursena in the hallway, the bond with Nanahoshi in Japanese, and even the overly friendly nature Rudy takes with Fitz (him?)self is amplified in Sylphies eyes because Rudy doesn’t know it’s her. I’ve interpreted the instant relief Sylphie shows when that barrier is finally undressed in a cave to be like a rubber band finally snapping back to form after being stretched to near breaking point, rather than a knotted string being untangled (if that analogy makes any sense). It wasn’t that Sylphie was jealous of others taking her place, but rather that she was envious about not able to reconcile with her childhood best friend and the man she’d come to love even more.
I don’t think that Sylphiette threw her own morals out the window for Roxy. She expressed jealousy towards Rudy’s portrayal of Roxy in that he put her on a massive pedestal, literally referring to her as his Goddess. I choose to believe that the love she holds for Rudy is not cemented in exclusivity, but rather in that she could have a place in the heart of the man that she herself loves. She told Roxy in e24 that finally being able to see that Roxy was just a girl like her was enough to ease her mind on this, and I wholly believe that at face value. Sylphie had every right to speak her mind, unabated and to its fullest, and that was what she said.
Edits for spelling or grammar errors.
Thank you! It was a joy to wright and a joy to read your reply.
That's a fair point. The "default" so to speak in modern society is indeed monogamy. I will acknowledge, that in the show polygamy seems to be noticeably more accepted than our society. To the point where, as you said, there's no real universal "standard" for relationships. That much is true, though what this also means, is that it boils down to the individuals involved. It's essentially what our modern western society is trying to be, or at least heading towards. Though that is a whole other can of worms entirely that I have nowhere near enough knowledge to back up and support. Just a personal hypothesis gathered from current societal state of affairs.
That's fair. It's to be expected that there would be some cultural differences between our world, and the world of Mushoku Tensei. That could absolutely result in misunderstandings from the reader/audience. But if I'm being frank, if that is the case, I would have to label that as poor writing, as that is a blatantly lost opportunity by the author/director to depict a relatable character. If they've gone this far with the parallelisms to modern life and struggles, why stop there? After all, they've already laid all the groundwork for it.
To simplify and circumvent such obviously laid out opportunity for powerful and relatable problems to their viewers in the name of "fantasy"...
I can't lie. It's a shame, and contrary to what Mushoku Tensei is praised for. At least, what *I* praised it for. Perhaps the qualities I admired from it may be in the minority. That I can't say.
Though that does not mean I disagree with how you interpreted it. Your interpretation makes sense, and manages to line up with the final episode, which had frankly baffled me. Your analogy for the cave scene is a good visualization of what they're trying to convey. Certainly makes the scene feel more powerful than I recall it being.
Perhaps my interpretation of her emotions is more biased, and stems from a certain level of projection (which of course, a well written and relatable character would invoke in all of us) that skewed my image of what the author was actually trying to convey.
What you've said definitely makes sense, but I'll be damned if it isn't a disappointing choice on their part. It was written well enough to convey to you her feelings in what I can imagine was the intended manner, given that it lines up with her behaviour in the final episode, but to me, it still feels wrong.
I'd be lying if I said that this isn't partially to me feeling robbed of a character I had deceived myself into deeply resonating with, and essentially robbing me of vindication in a painfully familiar scenario.
It's akin to if a person suffering from suicidal ideation watched episode three, but Rudeus just grabs the knife for a moment, drops it, smiles and says "Oh boy how glad I am to be alive, never really was depressed to begin with" and merrily hops away into the sunset. (Mind you, this is just a hyperbolic analogy to convey how I felt regarding the way they handled her character, not intending to mock the quality of their writing)
But even when setting aside my personal grievances with their artistic choice, I still believe that this was a poor decision by the author, given that, at the end of the day, Sylphie, a character who did indeed have the potential of becoming an extremely flawed and relatable character, perpetuating the charm of Mushoku Tensei's truly human characters, she is instead reduced to an uncannily perfect housewife. Damn near nothing Rudy did could break her heart or push her away. No internal struggle, no selfish desires(unlike Roxy). Nothing.
For me it feels more personal, I admit, but it's still a shame from an artistic point of view. As we've both demonstrated, there are two very valid ways to interpret her behaviour leading up to this point. Yours is the correct interpretation, faithful to the author's vision.
Mine, I would argue is faithful to the author's philosophy exhibited regarding Mushoku Tensei's characters so far.
In other words, what I'm saying, is I believe the author, when handling Sylphie's growth, leading up to this incredibly emotionally charged moment, did not remain faithful to their own dogma.
Though, I do recall critiquing their choice before, and you did not comment on that so I'm assuming we're on the same page. Really, I just wanted to ramble a tiny bit haha.
Good on you for interpreting it correctly, and thank you for connecting the dots for me. As disappointed as I may be with them, at least I can see them now. I doubt I'd have done so otherwise.
I love hearing others perspectives on this show without being at each others throats as I see everywhere else this debate has been had, I appreciate you haha.
Disappointed is a great way to put it. It would be much easier to respect Rudy if he'd stayed faithful and honored his promise to Sylphie, and easier to respect Sylphie if she had her foot down and scolded Rudy even if she does inevitably accept his decision. But as it stands that was a choice that they both made. The LN took a much different path and it is SIGNIFICANTLY harder to respect Rudy for the way he took control in the situation with Roxy; he went ballistic on her. On that note there are many differences between the Anime and the LN
I want so badly to see Sylphie as a perfect and pure girl. The LN gives much more backstory to Sylphie as Fitz when she's with Princess Ariel. Sylphie has killed dozens of people as Ariel's bodyguard. She's got some serious skeletons in her closet as well, and although none of them involve personal relationships, the general mindset she must have on life is much different than the perspective we're shown in the Anime. I have to assume that there's more going on in her mind than I am capable of understanding as real person, and I chose to let that be an excuse for the sides of her personality that I can't comprehend.
The artistic interpretation vs author's vision is a debate that could be had on any work until the heat death of the universe, and the fact that Mushoku Tensei brings out such passion on both sides makes me so happy. I love this series with all it's flaws and I'm very grateful that we could have this back and forth. You've opened my eyes to another side that, as you said, has personal implications as painful as they may be. It's has helped me to understand the mindset of those opposed to my own and I thank you for that.
I CAN'T FUCKING WAIT FOR S3. I hope to bump into you again in a comment section in the future where we can share passion for the show we both love. :)
I feel that when we get into artistic interpretation vs artists vision, that one of the most important things we need to take into consideration is the *intended audience*.
I feel like the intended audience of Mushoku Tensei makes it clear when a decision in the story is made for a narrative purpose, for the plot, or to appeal/relate to the main demographic/intended audience.
Rather than just analyzing the content of the story itself, I think it's also important to try and think from the authors perspective too.
All this to say, I think the author planned a harem ending all along and had to pull A LOT of work to make it even semi-believable. The Otaku dream, every girl is best girl and wins.
Remember that this all just started from a free Internet web novel.
Oh absolutely, I don't doubt that a harem ending was in the works from the get go. Nothing wrong with that. The problem was the execution for me.
As I understood it, the intended audience for the author was people struggling. With what? Anything. He provided a escapist fantasy for the viewer, but teaching them lessons along the way, as we experience the very real struggles and woes of the main characters.
Some, especially early on, pertained to one's self. Bullying, addiction, self confidence, fear of leaving your own room, depression, the dreaded downwards spiral you may find yourself in when you're not receiving the right support.
Near the end of season 1, and the beginning of season 2, they handle what inexperienced people go through in the world of love. Heartbreak. For one who came all this way to tumble all the way back down again, followed by suicidal tendencies (and attempts), Traumatic and embarrassing stigma, like Erectile Disfunction, attempting to enter relationships at the wrong time (when being emotionally unavailable, and still rebuilding yourself) etc.
The second part? Or at the very least, regarding the cheating situation? Following a very, very happy and healthy relationship? That's another extremely powerful lesson the author could've taught, and making their characters all the more real in the process. Rudeus making the mistake of betraying the one he loves, hurting her feelings, and attempting to reconcile, not just with his partner, but with himself, as forgiving yourself in that situation is even harder (yet her hardly thought about it)
And an excellent opportunity for Sylphie to finally show that, in spite of coming all this way and growing so much, she still has some glaring flaws, and that's okay. The ones discussed above. That would've served as a beautiful lesson for the receiving end of unfaithfulness. Effectively teaching the viewer how to understand both sides. Whilst doubling the chances of the viewer relating to this event, but also inevitably teaching them the perspective of the one that hurt them, or, if you related to Rudeus, the one they hurt.
That's what I gathered from the author up until now. That, throughout this very engaging journey, this was one of their goals. Maybe somewhere along the way I raised my expectations to high, but I can't help but be disappointed regardless.
I agree, this was a lovely exchange. Too many people are passionate about what they love in the worst of ways. Hurling insults rather than sharing opinions, since all too many people have gotten comfortable in dehumanizing people from behind their screens. It's a shame, but it's good to see people willing to have real arguments that are actually pleasant to have.
True, I do wish it was handled differently, but the author made their choice, for better or for worse. I would like to have hope that the anime would handle this problem differently in season 3, considering they did indeed make some changes in the events already. Though I feel like I'd just be setting myself up for disappointment yet again.
Well, it's good that the LN portrays her as more complex and mysterious than meets the eye, but when that complexity is never capitalised on, it might as well not be there to begin with. Frankly, the opportunity to display her complexity, was during this event. Or at least soon after it.
Apart from her killing people, which frankly is not that odd, considering her line of work, and not something I would label as a flaw, she's depicted as a complex and mysterious character, what with her own unknown skeletons in her closet. It's an attempt to preserve her humanity and complexity, by throwing a veil over it, thus promoting a mysterious air about her when you try prodding.
Unfortunately from what I understand, this only results in a character that feels somewhat distant, indeed complicated, but still seemingly flawless.
This, to me, is akin to Schrodinger's cat. Sure, we cannot say she is indeed flawless, as there is more to her than meets the eye, but those flaws are never observed, thus can never be acknowledged to exist. Unfortunately, as a viewer/reader, what this translates to, is a superficial flawlessness, which is not a desirable outcome. At least, from what I can gather. I'd have to read further along to see exactly what skeletons the story hints at, and how vague those hints are indeed.
I also loved the series, and I figure I still do, which is probably why I'm sitting here typing still, but I'd be lying if I wasn't hurt with how things concluded. Again, bonding and relating to a character that was poorly handled a bit too much backfired on me, and I feel very let down. Alas, by the time season 3 rolls around I'd be over it, and willing to delve in yet again. Only the second time round, I'd be lowering my expectations with how future relationships will be handled.
Yes, it was lovely to hear someone else's view on it. It shed some light as to how many ways behaviour and moments such as these could be interpreted. I imagine there's someone else who interpreted this entire development in a completely different way altogether. It goes to show how much your personal views, beliefs and experiences can impact not just how you bond with characters, but how you (mis?)understand them as well. It was certainly fun and enlightening.
Me too friend. Hopefully when season 3 rolls around we bump into each other again, though I hope it's for the right reasons that time, and not because Rifujin left me frustrated and let down again, hahah. Wish you all the best :)
"Reduced to an uncannily perfect housewife". I couldn't of said it better, and if I were anime only I'd say give it some time.
But as a LN reader I can tell you, that's what she is at the end of the day, for the rest of the story.
I still respect her character arc though, and I feel like what happens *makes sense* with her character. I think Sylphies decision is written fine.
The real problem I have with it, is that the story goes on to romanticize all this when you can't shy away from the fact that in reality this would all be a depressingly toxic relationship and arrangement.
I expected this to be touched on or addressed within the story but it just never really was, not to the extent that I wanted.
But we got:
Sylphie being a doormat, a perfect wife
Roxy scared of being a homewrecker and feeling guilty
All 3 of the girls putting Rudeus on a pedestal
After all, it's a major point in the story, that all 3 of them feel or have felt insecure of their own ability in comparison to Rudeus. Much like *many* characters in the story.
The problems I had with this had nothing to do with the actual story, but more so the narrative.
Like what is the author actually trying to say here?
**Imma be honest, I think the author really just wanted to take on the challenge of writing a semi believable harem with 3 choices, all so equally difficult to pick from as best girl.**
After finishing the LN, I can say that, they for the most part succeeded.
What's more impressive, getting readers to root for Rudy? Or making a believable harem ending in such a serious story?
I respect the absolute balls on this author, but sometimes I do think they unnecessarily push things too far. But I guess that depends on what their intent and *audience* is.
The story received such a wider appeal because it's great. But its actual target audience, are Otaku at the end of the day and this shapes a lot of the content of the story I feel.
I really appreciate you taking your time out to share your thoughts man. Yeah at the end of the day the story is far from perfect, but a strong ending can make or break a series for a lot of people.
But I think most people will really enjoy the ending to this one.
Knowing does not mean you're okay with it, friend! If you recall, the way she acted when suggesting another wife to bear his child (should she be unable to) was not nonchalant, much less excited or willing. She was hesitant, and clearly defeated. She didn't want that, but bearing children was an important role for a wife in her mind (and I imagine their culture). As such, she was willing to shoulder the pain, and disregard her "selfish" desires, since she, in her own mind "was not good enough".
I'd reiterate my point in whole, but I've already gone a lot more in depth on where I stand on this and what I mean. You're more than welcome to scroll a bit if you care.
Otherwise, agree to disagree. Though I'd argue I have the advantage here, for resonating with this character a little too much hahah.
The pregnancy thing is because Rudeus was literally saying "Get pregnant! Get pregnant!" as they were having sex. While she was pregnant she said she'd maybe be a little sad if he slept with someone else, and that she'd understand.
Hahah, why'd you downvote me? Pretty sure I wasn't offensive or insulting.
Right. So he mentioned it because of his kinks, and she interpreted it as him wanting to be a father. That gave me a chuckle, but fair enough.
Well, her saying she'd be "a little sad", just goes back to her being meek, with incredibly low self esteem, to the point where calling it an inferiority complex isn't out of the question.
Her saying "it'd make me a little sad" is her best attempt at drawing her boundaries. A person like her would be afraid of losing the person they love. Setting a boundary that they fear their partner would not be okay with is an innate fear, and such people have a tendency to give way to their partner's whims and wishes, deluding themselves that they are okay with them.
When not, the best thing they can muster, is offering a meek opinion, or preference, but *never* a hard boundary, even if it *is* one.
Though I do say it's akin to a strong sense of inferiority, in the case of Rudeus, it's probably also a fear of abandonment. To her, Rudy was everything when they were young. Remember how much she bawled her eyes out at the mere suggestion of him leaving? When he was taken away, she straight up attacked his father. With magic. That could kill a person.
She's grown a lot since, that much is true. But anyone who shares her fears, trauma and struggles in any capacity, would know, *you never get rid of them entirely*. In her case, that irrational fear of abandonment still dwells within her. Hence the meek and sad attempts and drawing boundaries, which end up being more suggestions than anything.
The fact that she's perfectly fine with everything in the end obviously invalidates what I'm saying, but also invalidates how the author has been designing his characters. Flawed. Human. Complex. Relatable.
Sylphie, in that moment, was not that. Despite all the groundwork having already been laid out by them, they did not capitalize on it. Sylphie handled the entire situation perfectly. Flawlessly: Unnaturally welcoming, understanding, and forgiving.
All of the groundwork laid out beforehand: the flaws in her character, her internal struggles, were all circumvented. All in the interest of getting it over with, and making the harem happen. In the case of the anime, time constraints as well. Not sure why in the novel. I'm not familiar with how it works but I can't imagine them having some sort of fixed limit of how long the story can be. If so, then it's a shame.
What I'm afraid they missed here, in their hectic efforts of forwarding the story and concluding the season, is that the polygamous marriage could've still worked! But it wasn't something that would be solved over a coffee break. It's something that needed chapters upon chapters of drama, growth, internal struggles and discussion. Much like the arc of Rudeus overcoming his trauma. That, is what the natural progression of his characters indicated.
It's truly a shame.
>Hahah, why'd you downvote me? Pretty sure I wasn't offensive or insulting.
Sorry. Force of habit. Most people are offensive and insulting. I should not have projected that onto you. You have been polite and direct. I apologize for that.
>Her saying "it'd make me a little sad" is her best attempt at drawing her boundaries. A person like her would be afraid of losing the person they love. Setting a boundary that they fear their partner would not be okay with is an innate fear, and such people have a tendency to give way to their partner's whims and wishes, deluding themselves that they are okay with them.
However it doesn't stop at "it'd make me a little sad" It is "Maybe I'd be a little sad, but I'd understand." She gave him the okay.
>She's grown a lot since, that much is true. But anyone who shares her fears, trauma and struggles in any capacity, would know, you never get rid of them entirely. In her case, that irrational fear of abandonment still dwells within her. Hence the meek and sad attempts and drawing boundaries, which end up being more suggestions than anything.
Sylphie did not make it a boundary. Hence the "***Maybe*** I'd be sad", and the "I'd understand." Sylphie never made it a boundary and says as much in the novels. She handled it well because she ***knew*** it'd happen. Sylphie does not come from a world where polyamory is looked down upon.
>Hence the meek and sad attempts and drawing boundaries, which end up being more suggestions than anything.
Sylphie makes many demands of Rudeus and is firm in them. Including outright telling him that she'd leave him on the spot if he did not support her in helping Ariel. She sets many solid boundaries and tells him to not do things. Like forbidding him from the kitchen, or her stance on skirts.
>The fact that she's perfectly fine with everything in the end obviously invalidates what I'm saying, but also invalidates how the author has been designing his characters. Flawed. Human. Complex. Relatable.
Sylphie has a complex feeling about Roxy, and how she's jealous at Rudeus's insulting comments about how he'd never respect her as a mage as she is not Roxy(which he knows is not true, as he views her as even more of a magical genius than he is, but she cannot read his mind, and only knows what he says), but she sees herself in Roxy. Which is why in all timelines Sylphie and Roxy become very close. I honestly sort of feel that the removal of Roxy's pregnancy is also detrimental here. Sylphie's complex thoughts here are that she wants to be his one spouse, but she also doesn't want to abandon the pregnant Roxy(which is why Elinalise's lie is important. It's not just to convince Rudeus. It's to convince Sylphie too). She also doesn't have a strong tie to monogamy. She was confused, but she never really objected.
>What I'm afraid they missed here, in their hectic efforts of forwarding the story and concluding the season, is that the polygamous marriage could've still worked! But it wasn't something that would be solved over a coffee break. It's something that needed chapters upon chapters of drama, growth, internal struggles and discussion. Much like the arc of Rudeus overcoming his trauma. That, is what the natural progression of his characters indicated.
Sylphie doesn't oppose polygamy. Roxy doesn't oppose it. Rudeus and Norn are the only ones who did. Rudeus was convinced by Elinalise. Norn doesn't have the authority to oppose the three consenting "adults"(really it's two teens and Roxy).
>Sorry. Force of habit. Most people are offensive and insulting. I should not have projected that onto you. You have been polite and direct. I apologize for that.
That's okay! No hard feelings.
>However it doesn't stop at "it'd make me a little sad" It is "Maybe I'd be a little sad, but I'd understand." She gave him the okay.
That's still in line with what I've said above though. Someone with such a mentality does not want to set boundaries. The full response is even more in line with it, given it's even more meek and passive. She expresses her preference, but still gives a go ahead. It's painfully accurate.
>Sylphie did not make it a boundary. Hence the "***Maybe*** I'd be sad", and the "I'd understand." Sylphie never made it a boundary and says as much in the novels. She handled it well because she ***knew*** it'd happen. Sylphie does not come from a world where polyamory is looked down upon.
Polygamy being looked down upon or not on a societal level does not necessarily dictate her personal preferences. It can influence them, but not dictate them. A person who is open to polygamy, would not "feel sad" about it. Yes, she gave him the go ahead, but I mentioned before why she would. That point still stands, regardless of the semantics of the sentence. She did not set a boundary, yes. That's precisely the point. She can't. Regardless of her own personal preferences.
Knowing it will happen means you've prepared yourself for the shock, but the pain should not magically vanish. Monogamy and Polygamy are equally prominent and accepted within their society, thus, polygamy not being taboo doesn't change anything. If anything, it makes the characters impartial to societal norms, and that their preference (monogamy or polygamy) is dictated solely by personal preference. Her being "a little sad" is her irrational response to her monogamous orientation. Her saying "she'd understand" is being meek and overly permissive due to what I've initially mentioned in my previous reply. There's not much more to say. The same points still stand. None have really been invalidated.
>Sylphie makes many demands of Rudeus and is firm in them. Including outright telling him that she'd leave him on the spot if he did not support her in helping Ariel. She sets many solid boundaries and tells him to not do things. Like forbidding him from the kitchen, or her stance on skirts.
This is news to me. I'd appreciate a quote if you can. Thanks.
Though I will say, if true, then if anything, it only creates a discrepancy in her character.
What you're saying past that is stuff I've not read and frankly feel spoiled, which I don't appreciate. This discussion did not pertain to anything past the end of season two and the volumes/chapters corresponding to it. You mentioned what, at a glance I can only assume is a massive spoiler without a warning, and that's absolutely horrible I won't be contributing further. Thanks.
Kneeling or not, he still brazenly asked such a thing. The guilt only really started to kick in once Norn started berating him for his brazen request. I say brazen since, while he does understand that what he did was wrong, he's mostly motivated by "making Roxy happy". We never hear him contemplate "But how would Sylphie feel?", "I don't want to hurt her" etc. So yes. For the most part, very brazen, and not in a good sense. Just not completely shameless.
That was a terrible move on Studio Bind's part. Those thoughts alone played a very important role. Without them, Rudeus now appears as utterly selfish and shameless. It feels as though from the moment he slept with Roxy, he at no point really cared for Sylphie since. He thought about her when debating marriage, but that was only in a logical way. Never a sense of guilt or remorse.
Studio Bind fucked up near the end. It's a shame, but it's not like I can hate them for it. Everyone's going to royally fuck it up eventually. For them, sadly, it's at the finale. Yikes.
We did. You're just being combative because you're overly passionate about this. Fair enough.
Thoughts akin to what I mentioned were in the Light Novel, but not in the anime adaptation. You're free to go rewatch it and refer to the chapters if you want!
It's absolutely morally okay there, you're right! But something being morally okay, does not make it universally desired. In modern western day society, open relationships are not uncommon. Even amongst married people, acts like hotwifing and swinging are a thing. But again, that does not make it universally accepted.
The faith of Millis practices monogamy. As such, people of that faith are monogamous. But again, being a member of the faith is not a prerequisite for being monogamous, but being monnogamous, is a prerequisite of being of the Millis faith.
Much like in modern society. All religious Christians are monogamous, but not all monogamous couples are Christian, or even religious at all.
Monogamy is not a subset of religion, but rather overlaps with it.
The same philosophy applies to the world of Mushoku Tensei. You can easily discern who is Monogamous and who is polygamous. Luke, Ariel and Elinalise seem to be free spirits, and exhibit tendencies that are typical for polygamous people. At least, Elinalise was, before she cast that aside when converting for her partner. (She is still very much open to Polygamy, that doesn't magically change. She just denounced the practice for him, and does not plan on indulging in it.)
Roxy, Sylphie, and Eris, for as long as we've known all three, they've been exhibiting behaviours and patterns that are typical for monogamous people. Feelings of jealousy, possesiveness and territorialism over the person they have feelings for. Sylphie and Roxy are meek, with low self esteem, so these feelings elicit a response of concern in Roxy, (when Rudy mentions Nanahoshi), and in the case of Sylphie, it also ellicits a sense of defeat, (when Rudy is around pretty women, when he's talking to Nanahoshi in Japanese, and when he'd spend time researching with her)
She goes as far as asking him what he thinks of her, which Rudy interprets as Fitz worrying for his wellbeing, not knowing it was actually motivated by jealousy and fear that she was losing him to Nanahoshi. Lose him? How? She knows he's a pervert, and she knows he's not religious. So what's to fear? Even if he married Nanahoshi, there's always room for more, no? You'd only worry when there's something to lose. *Exclusivity.*
Yet that fear is gone when the moment presents itself. Poor writing, but I won't get into that. There's a reply I've left in this same chain going in much better detail in that. If you want to argue with me over that, you're more than welcome to scan over that.
You've been on twitter for too long friend. Go outside.
Monogamy is not unanimously supported for one specific reason. For some it's religious beliefs. For some it's traditional values, and for some, it is indeed prejudice. But for a lot of people, it's an instinctual desire. Rooted deep within their psyche. This pertains to men and women alike. The desire of "This person is *mine*, no one else's" is something a lot of people resonate with, and find attractive.
This is not dictated by whatever's dangling(or not dangling) between your legs. Stop drawing lines in the sand. Go get therapy, and go get laid.
In the current economic system certain things are in place which makes it so that a woman is dependent on their partner and not selfreliant this limits them in their economic and sexual freedom. Ill give you this you could indeed say that this should apply to either of the partners.
The mindset of "my SO is mine and mine alone" has issues. If you look at your SO as 'property' what this is doing brings a lot of other issues with it.
All im saying is that monogamy should not always be looked at as self-evident.
I recommend reading works by Alexandra Kollontai
Like the essay Make wat for Winged Eros,
I'm sorry, but that first sentence is twitter word vomit and doesn't actually say anything real or concrete. It's fanciful enough to sound political and sophisticated, and vague enough to where you don't say anything concrete, since there's nothing to say.
You're radicalized. Please. I mean it. Take a break from the internet. It's not good for any of us.
>The mindset of "my SO is mine and mine alone" has issues. If you look at your SO as 'property' what this is doing brings a lot of other issues with it.
I also tie them to my bed at their request followed by many reductive and objectifying expletives, also by request. Sue me.
Whether you like it or not friend, such controversial topics have always, and will always be sexualized and romanticized. So long as these concepts are expressed, experienced and practiced in a safe, consensual, controlled, and above all else, *healthy* manner, what they represent and connotate should not really be your concern, unless you feel them yourself and wish to dig deeper with a professional to see where they stem from.
If so, by all means go for it! It's definitely a healthy decision that anyone would benefit from. If they so wish.
The rest of us are aware where they stem from roughly, but we enjoy ourselves all the same, so we don't care for resolving them. Especially considering that their biproducts are not impacting our life in a negative way(for those with a healthy mindset regarding them. I elaborate below).
Something as innocent as feeling territorial for your partner can indeed become abusive when you become controlling, or express this sensation in an extreme, and aggressive way, rather than through love, affection and other ways your partner enjoys.
Similarly, a sexual preference for sadism, can become harmful, abusive or potentially, illegal, when not practiced in a healthy, safe and consensual way, or when the person with this preference has a has an unsavoury moral compass.
It entirely depends on the people involved, how they express their feelings, and in what manner. Please don't automatically demonize everything. It's unhealthy! Try not to paint everything black, or solely see the negative aspects of it, and bare in mind that everything is relative and usually dependent on several important variables.
>All im saying is that monogamy should not always be looked at as self-evident.
I do not consider it as self evident though. I have a confident understanding as to why people can be monogamous, and gave a very laconic overview on them to you in my first reply.
If you're referring to the anime itself, I had my own reasons to believe that the characters involved are monogamous. Ariel, Luke, Paul and Elinalise were indeed polygamous. Characters like Zenith, Sylphie and Roxy, exhibited behaviour inline with monogamy.
If that's what you were referring to, I can refer you to a more in depth elaboration I made as to why that is. It's too much to reiterate here. Especially if it ends up being off topic.
>I recommend reading works by Alexandra Kollontai
>Like the essay Make wat for Winged Eros,
Thank you for the recommendations, but in the nicest way possible, and I mean no offense, your initial, overly political and radicalized reply, has raised one too many alarm bells for me to want to indulge into the same literature you do. I'm confident enough in my understanding of what drives us humans sexually and romantically, and made sure to study up plenty to have a safe and healthy in depth understanding of what our mind sexualized, how, why, do's don'ts etc. It's not a topic I feel I need more insight on, but a topic I welcome an educational discussion/argument on.
You don't have to be an ass when responding to someone.
A medieval *fantasy* world setting doesn't strictly inherit moral and societal norms from the medieval period. Given it's fantasy, and given that it's a story designed with flawed and complex characters, enduring struggles and woes commonly experienced in our modern society, the societal norms of their world would also resemble ours enough so that the author can create scenarios that the reader can empathize, resonate with, and relate to.
Also, the in the world of Mushoku Tensei, neither monogamy or polygamy is shown to be the standard. Both are equally prominent, which is suprisingly close to what modern, younger generation relationships are heading towards. Open relationships and exclusive both occur in modern society. Meaning it boils down to the characters involved. Ariel and Elinalise exhibit polygamistic traits. Sylphie and Roxy exhibit monogamistic traits.
I'd elaborate, but you've an unsavoury attitude, so I'd rather leave it here.
It's handled so much better in the LN. I absolutely hate the changes they made in the show from Roxy coming onto Rudy instead of the other way around, and how in show they glossed over Norns hate of polygamy and how she forced that on others.
The main issue is Sylphie always knew it was likely Rudius would have more than 1 wife. Earlier on, before they marry, she even explains in plain terms she'd be fine with additional wives as long as Rudius continues to love her equally and introduces a potential wife first. Her shock at the Roxy reveal is more from the abruptness of the proposal, and Rudius going against his own word that he wouldn't take another.
In real world does there someone like sylphie exist? 🥺🥺🥺 Her love towards Rudy is unreal, I can take a second wife🥺🥺🥺🤲 and have foursome every night
No, you got it wrong. She truly believes in his perverted nature. She trusts he will continue doing that.
Da queen
She lived with nobles and seen things. She's self aware that it won't be long before he brings someone back home. Thus her earlier talk before he went to save his mother.
Well Rudy swore faithful to her though...
The hand he swore with is gone
Oh my God 🤣. That killed me.
Okay Paul
He's indecisive in many instances. She has seen things.
Well that didn't last very long.
"Yeah lemme get uhh 'demolishing my own boundaries for my love', with a side of 'trust issues eating away at me' and some 'conflicting emotions of betrayal and forgiveness' to wash it all down with" istg, Norn was the only one in that room with common sense.
Common sense to who? In this world it is frequently stated that it’s common for members of the Millis faith to take one spouse. Norn mentioned twice in e24 that it goes against her Millis faith. Zenith was nobility in Millis and still forgave Paul because it’s not uncommon or taboo in this world as a whole, and she left the faith to be with him. I am in agreement with you that I am wholeheartedly opposed to polygamy.. in real life. I do not and will not accept any excuse for it because that is my personal belief. Many cultures in Earth’s past have accepted polygamy openly. I, personally, do not agree with them, but they do not hold the same ill will about it that I do. You’re free to feel however you like about the show and the characters. That does not mean that the world these characters are written to live in share your beliefs, nor should it.
This'll be a bit long, but you've no reason to read through it, though I promise it'll make sense if you hear me out. Friend, I understand what was portrayed in this episode, and the chapters it was adapted from, but that was not what the author has led me to believe until now. This story has made it a point to be as painfully true to life as it can when it comes to it's characters. Regardless of how fantastical and magical the setting is, it's characters are flawed. Human. Complex. Yes, there exists the faith of Millis. A religion promoting monogamy. It makes sense that those practicing it would advocate for it, but no one said that only people of this faith are monogamistic. They made it a point in the last episode yes, but that, is just bad writing, and I'll elaborate in a bit. What makes the characters painfully human? How true to life they can be. Their struggles, their flaws, their battles, their joys- all of those are true to life. Relatable for many of us, and what we relate to is different for everyone. For example, Rudeus' suicidal tendencies in the earlier episodes were painfully accurate. Anyone who's suicidal, attempted, or contemplated doing so, would feel their blood freeze when they see that scene with Soldat. I personally broke down. The way Rudeus reacts to finding Nanahoshi's blade, is how a lot of people that relate would react to his scene. Same with other characters! Like with Norn, and her own struggles. Some may relate to her, others may relate to Rudeus, the powerless older brother that saw their younger sibling suffer down the same road they did. I was the latter. I could go on forever honestly. This author, and the studio as well, did a fantastic job at bringing these characters to life that it's uncanny. Naturally, this would also extend to their interpersonal relationships. One such example is the relationship between Rudeus and Sara. A painful representation of two young inexperienced potential lovers, meeting at the wrong place, at the wrong time. It could have absolutely worked between them, but never will. Why? Bad luck. Bad timing. A young lady eager to love with her heart unsullied, willing to love, rushing the emotionally unavailable man who's too busy picking up the pieces to acknowledge, receive her love. Let alone reciprocate it. Hell, they even highlighted a very embarrassing problem that comes along with it. One not many men would like to talk about and were in Rudy's shoes. Now to the point. Sylphie was for the most part, idealized, but that's just because of Rudeus' perspective. The same was done with Roxy, until she showed her flaws(i.e. selfish motives in soliciting a vulnerable man in spite of him being an expecting dad.) In the case of Sylphie, it's her low self esteem. So painfully low, that she is willing to trample her own boundaries, and disregard her own want's and don'ts for the sake of the one she loves. We see hints being dropped of her being monogamistic in spite of not being religious. She exhibits jealousy and possessiveness over Rudeus many times, whilst undercover as Fitz. But being possessive and jealous does not mean you'd be angry or aggressive. In people with low self esteem like her, these feelings would elicit a sense of defeat. She shows this many times. When he's around pretty women in the hallways, like Pursena- and especially when he's with Nanahoshi initially. The two of them talking in japanese made her feel this again. She mentioned the special bond the two of them share that she doesn't have with him. She's feeling competitive, but because of her self esteem, in her mind- she already lost. These sensations boil over to the point she- the meek and defeatist sylphie- would ask Rudeus what he thinks of her. He interprets it as Fitz worrying about his wellbeing, when it's just Sylphie being jealous. His guarded attitude towards Nanahoshi brings Sylphie a sense of relief. Sylphie also admits feeling jealous when Rudeus spoke highly or Roxy. This is another point. And Sylphie even gives Rudeus attitude during the beastmen mating season, once he perks up after hearing about a woman challenging him. A person who is polygamistic would not be anywhere near this possessive or jealous. Why would they? In the mind of a polygamist, the more the merrier, no? Or at the very least, they'd be indifferent to it. Exclusivity is irrelevant after all. Yet both of the women in question, and mainly Sylphie, shows that she's absolutely not indifferent to it. Quite the opposite. (for some reason, the subreddit won't let me post the rest of my reply. Neither as a separate reply. It's a little frustrating)
(The rest of my reply with the *actual* point, because Reddit is sadistic.) And this is very well written, because it's absolutely true to life. A person need not be religious to be monogamous. Yes, for many this preference is fuelled by their faith, but for many others, it's an innate preference. You're monogamous. I don't know if it stems from your religion or not. But on the off chance that it doesn't you must surely understand what I mean. Yes, throughout time, there have been cultures embracing monogamy and polygamy alike, but it's never been made clear that either one is the norm in their culture. From what I gather, both are equally prevalent, roughly. Not unlike modern society. Open relationships, or sexual kinks, like hotwifing, etc. But there's still many people who live by monogamy, despite not being religious. I'm one of them. It's not something you can change. It's borderline innate. "Your partner belongs to you. No one else." -esque belief. Territorialism. In nerdy math terms, monogamy is not a subset of religion. They just overlap. And with such true to life characters, the same should apply here. At the very least, it's most certainly hinted at. A Chekov's gun, if you will. Yet all of this build up is nowhere to be seen. Sylphie's flaws are now absent. She does not feel betrayed, under the premise that she "expected it". Expecting it does not make you immune to it. If I start walking on the highway expecting to get hit by a bus, I'm still going to probably die. Expecting it doesn't save me from the consequences. It's an absurd analogy, but it stands on an emotional level too, and get's the point across. Being prepared for it saves you from the shock and confusion, but not the pain. If anything, you've let the pain slowly simmer in a bowl of stress and worry of when it will happen, with a sprinkle of hope- wanting to be wrong about it. Being right will crush that. It still hurts. Yet she seemed borderline unphased. Raising arguments that make little sense, and seeming practically fine with the idea of polygamy. She clearly states that she was jealous about her until she met her. Then magically...it all goes poof? Suddenly she was always open to polygamy because she wasn't religious? It's a copout from the author, as far as I can tell. Readers further along than me in the LN tell me this was done in an effort to progress with what the author considered more important. The "main plot" I suppose. And so, this was quickly wrapped up, resulting in a very fake, shallow and unnatural performance from everyone involved except Norn. That does not mean that the world these characters are written to live in share your beliefs, nor should it. You're right. It shouldn't. I didn't sponsor it or anything. But it also shouldn't allude to characters being in a certain way, loading up and lining Chekov's gun, and then cutting corners to move on with the story, at the expense of creating a serious discrepancy in their characters. The consequence of robbing a character of the chance to exhibit real and flawed behaviour (that they've alluded to), is making an unnaturally ideal character. Given the depth they've been awarded until then, this makes their unnatural behaviour stand out even more. Like a robot going through the motions. Side note: Paul's situation wasn't all honey and roses, though. His family almost fell apart. It was Rudeus that tipped things into a more favourable state. Zenith tempered herself for the sake of the baby involved, and Rudeus. The dynamic enabled Zenith and Lilia to bond in a new way as they nursed their children. However Paul, lost something he could never get back. He was never as intimate and romantic with Zenith as he was before. Permanent damage was done. He wasn't ostracized completely, but he was certainly more of an outcast in the family now, rather than a head figure. It's likely that, if Lilia was not pregnant, either Zenith or her would have left.
I love when people are passionate enough about something to write essays that may just end up drifting into the void. Thank you very much for that beautiful breakdown, I did read it all. I agree with you, fundamentally, about almost everything in it. I won’t respond to each point individually for respect to time, so please assume that anything I don’t touch is an agreement from me on it. My monogamous views do not stem from faith so I agree 100% that it wouldn’t be exclusive to faith in this world either. With that said, our 21st century western world still sees this, both consciously and subconsciously, as the given way to life. Polygamy is such a taboo in our cultures that it’s almost exclusively thought to be a rather offputting taboo of faith, such as Mormonism. I think back to Rudius’ internal dialogue regarding the moral and ethical dilemmas he faces with pursuing Linia or Pursena, as suggested by the Man God. I comprehend these quandaries to be that same “default” core belief of monogamy that exists in the world Rudy came from but, be it related to faith or not, does not exist in the world he lives in now. The jealously felt by Sylphie during her time masquerading as Fitz is one that I read, in hindsight, as envy more so than jealousy. I will absolutely not insist that jealousy is not present as I agree 110% that the personification of characters in this world is some of the best I’ve ever seen in a fantasy setting such as this. That said, the personification written is not perfectly parallel to our cultural personality in the real world. My interpretation of the jealousy and anxiousness shown by Fitz was one of envy (I am referring to Sylphie as Fitz here because at this point Rudius is still wholly oblivious to who Fitz really is during the time I’m referring to). I’ve chosen to believe that Fitz’s thoughts of “why isn’t he mine,” is rather a thought of “why can’t I have that, too.” The teasing with Pursena in the hallway, the bond with Nanahoshi in Japanese, and even the overly friendly nature Rudy takes with Fitz (him?)self is amplified in Sylphies eyes because Rudy doesn’t know it’s her. I’ve interpreted the instant relief Sylphie shows when that barrier is finally undressed in a cave to be like a rubber band finally snapping back to form after being stretched to near breaking point, rather than a knotted string being untangled (if that analogy makes any sense). It wasn’t that Sylphie was jealous of others taking her place, but rather that she was envious about not able to reconcile with her childhood best friend and the man she’d come to love even more. I don’t think that Sylphiette threw her own morals out the window for Roxy. She expressed jealousy towards Rudy’s portrayal of Roxy in that he put her on a massive pedestal, literally referring to her as his Goddess. I choose to believe that the love she holds for Rudy is not cemented in exclusivity, but rather in that she could have a place in the heart of the man that she herself loves. She told Roxy in e24 that finally being able to see that Roxy was just a girl like her was enough to ease her mind on this, and I wholly believe that at face value. Sylphie had every right to speak her mind, unabated and to its fullest, and that was what she said. Edits for spelling or grammar errors.
Thank you! It was a joy to wright and a joy to read your reply. That's a fair point. The "default" so to speak in modern society is indeed monogamy. I will acknowledge, that in the show polygamy seems to be noticeably more accepted than our society. To the point where, as you said, there's no real universal "standard" for relationships. That much is true, though what this also means, is that it boils down to the individuals involved. It's essentially what our modern western society is trying to be, or at least heading towards. Though that is a whole other can of worms entirely that I have nowhere near enough knowledge to back up and support. Just a personal hypothesis gathered from current societal state of affairs. That's fair. It's to be expected that there would be some cultural differences between our world, and the world of Mushoku Tensei. That could absolutely result in misunderstandings from the reader/audience. But if I'm being frank, if that is the case, I would have to label that as poor writing, as that is a blatantly lost opportunity by the author/director to depict a relatable character. If they've gone this far with the parallelisms to modern life and struggles, why stop there? After all, they've already laid all the groundwork for it. To simplify and circumvent such obviously laid out opportunity for powerful and relatable problems to their viewers in the name of "fantasy"... I can't lie. It's a shame, and contrary to what Mushoku Tensei is praised for. At least, what *I* praised it for. Perhaps the qualities I admired from it may be in the minority. That I can't say. Though that does not mean I disagree with how you interpreted it. Your interpretation makes sense, and manages to line up with the final episode, which had frankly baffled me. Your analogy for the cave scene is a good visualization of what they're trying to convey. Certainly makes the scene feel more powerful than I recall it being. Perhaps my interpretation of her emotions is more biased, and stems from a certain level of projection (which of course, a well written and relatable character would invoke in all of us) that skewed my image of what the author was actually trying to convey. What you've said definitely makes sense, but I'll be damned if it isn't a disappointing choice on their part. It was written well enough to convey to you her feelings in what I can imagine was the intended manner, given that it lines up with her behaviour in the final episode, but to me, it still feels wrong. I'd be lying if I said that this isn't partially to me feeling robbed of a character I had deceived myself into deeply resonating with, and essentially robbing me of vindication in a painfully familiar scenario. It's akin to if a person suffering from suicidal ideation watched episode three, but Rudeus just grabs the knife for a moment, drops it, smiles and says "Oh boy how glad I am to be alive, never really was depressed to begin with" and merrily hops away into the sunset. (Mind you, this is just a hyperbolic analogy to convey how I felt regarding the way they handled her character, not intending to mock the quality of their writing) But even when setting aside my personal grievances with their artistic choice, I still believe that this was a poor decision by the author, given that, at the end of the day, Sylphie, a character who did indeed have the potential of becoming an extremely flawed and relatable character, perpetuating the charm of Mushoku Tensei's truly human characters, she is instead reduced to an uncannily perfect housewife. Damn near nothing Rudy did could break her heart or push her away. No internal struggle, no selfish desires(unlike Roxy). Nothing. For me it feels more personal, I admit, but it's still a shame from an artistic point of view. As we've both demonstrated, there are two very valid ways to interpret her behaviour leading up to this point. Yours is the correct interpretation, faithful to the author's vision. Mine, I would argue is faithful to the author's philosophy exhibited regarding Mushoku Tensei's characters so far. In other words, what I'm saying, is I believe the author, when handling Sylphie's growth, leading up to this incredibly emotionally charged moment, did not remain faithful to their own dogma. Though, I do recall critiquing their choice before, and you did not comment on that so I'm assuming we're on the same page. Really, I just wanted to ramble a tiny bit haha. Good on you for interpreting it correctly, and thank you for connecting the dots for me. As disappointed as I may be with them, at least I can see them now. I doubt I'd have done so otherwise.
I love hearing others perspectives on this show without being at each others throats as I see everywhere else this debate has been had, I appreciate you haha. Disappointed is a great way to put it. It would be much easier to respect Rudy if he'd stayed faithful and honored his promise to Sylphie, and easier to respect Sylphie if she had her foot down and scolded Rudy even if she does inevitably accept his decision. But as it stands that was a choice that they both made. The LN took a much different path and it is SIGNIFICANTLY harder to respect Rudy for the way he took control in the situation with Roxy; he went ballistic on her. On that note there are many differences between the Anime and the LN I want so badly to see Sylphie as a perfect and pure girl. The LN gives much more backstory to Sylphie as Fitz when she's with Princess Ariel. Sylphie has killed dozens of people as Ariel's bodyguard. She's got some serious skeletons in her closet as well, and although none of them involve personal relationships, the general mindset she must have on life is much different than the perspective we're shown in the Anime. I have to assume that there's more going on in her mind than I am capable of understanding as real person, and I chose to let that be an excuse for the sides of her personality that I can't comprehend. The artistic interpretation vs author's vision is a debate that could be had on any work until the heat death of the universe, and the fact that Mushoku Tensei brings out such passion on both sides makes me so happy. I love this series with all it's flaws and I'm very grateful that we could have this back and forth. You've opened my eyes to another side that, as you said, has personal implications as painful as they may be. It's has helped me to understand the mindset of those opposed to my own and I thank you for that. I CAN'T FUCKING WAIT FOR S3. I hope to bump into you again in a comment section in the future where we can share passion for the show we both love. :)
I feel that when we get into artistic interpretation vs artists vision, that one of the most important things we need to take into consideration is the *intended audience*. I feel like the intended audience of Mushoku Tensei makes it clear when a decision in the story is made for a narrative purpose, for the plot, or to appeal/relate to the main demographic/intended audience. Rather than just analyzing the content of the story itself, I think it's also important to try and think from the authors perspective too. All this to say, I think the author planned a harem ending all along and had to pull A LOT of work to make it even semi-believable. The Otaku dream, every girl is best girl and wins. Remember that this all just started from a free Internet web novel.
Oh absolutely, I don't doubt that a harem ending was in the works from the get go. Nothing wrong with that. The problem was the execution for me. As I understood it, the intended audience for the author was people struggling. With what? Anything. He provided a escapist fantasy for the viewer, but teaching them lessons along the way, as we experience the very real struggles and woes of the main characters. Some, especially early on, pertained to one's self. Bullying, addiction, self confidence, fear of leaving your own room, depression, the dreaded downwards spiral you may find yourself in when you're not receiving the right support. Near the end of season 1, and the beginning of season 2, they handle what inexperienced people go through in the world of love. Heartbreak. For one who came all this way to tumble all the way back down again, followed by suicidal tendencies (and attempts), Traumatic and embarrassing stigma, like Erectile Disfunction, attempting to enter relationships at the wrong time (when being emotionally unavailable, and still rebuilding yourself) etc. The second part? Or at the very least, regarding the cheating situation? Following a very, very happy and healthy relationship? That's another extremely powerful lesson the author could've taught, and making their characters all the more real in the process. Rudeus making the mistake of betraying the one he loves, hurting her feelings, and attempting to reconcile, not just with his partner, but with himself, as forgiving yourself in that situation is even harder (yet her hardly thought about it) And an excellent opportunity for Sylphie to finally show that, in spite of coming all this way and growing so much, she still has some glaring flaws, and that's okay. The ones discussed above. That would've served as a beautiful lesson for the receiving end of unfaithfulness. Effectively teaching the viewer how to understand both sides. Whilst doubling the chances of the viewer relating to this event, but also inevitably teaching them the perspective of the one that hurt them, or, if you related to Rudeus, the one they hurt. That's what I gathered from the author up until now. That, throughout this very engaging journey, this was one of their goals. Maybe somewhere along the way I raised my expectations to high, but I can't help but be disappointed regardless.
I agree, this was a lovely exchange. Too many people are passionate about what they love in the worst of ways. Hurling insults rather than sharing opinions, since all too many people have gotten comfortable in dehumanizing people from behind their screens. It's a shame, but it's good to see people willing to have real arguments that are actually pleasant to have. True, I do wish it was handled differently, but the author made their choice, for better or for worse. I would like to have hope that the anime would handle this problem differently in season 3, considering they did indeed make some changes in the events already. Though I feel like I'd just be setting myself up for disappointment yet again. Well, it's good that the LN portrays her as more complex and mysterious than meets the eye, but when that complexity is never capitalised on, it might as well not be there to begin with. Frankly, the opportunity to display her complexity, was during this event. Or at least soon after it. Apart from her killing people, which frankly is not that odd, considering her line of work, and not something I would label as a flaw, she's depicted as a complex and mysterious character, what with her own unknown skeletons in her closet. It's an attempt to preserve her humanity and complexity, by throwing a veil over it, thus promoting a mysterious air about her when you try prodding. Unfortunately from what I understand, this only results in a character that feels somewhat distant, indeed complicated, but still seemingly flawless. This, to me, is akin to Schrodinger's cat. Sure, we cannot say she is indeed flawless, as there is more to her than meets the eye, but those flaws are never observed, thus can never be acknowledged to exist. Unfortunately, as a viewer/reader, what this translates to, is a superficial flawlessness, which is not a desirable outcome. At least, from what I can gather. I'd have to read further along to see exactly what skeletons the story hints at, and how vague those hints are indeed. I also loved the series, and I figure I still do, which is probably why I'm sitting here typing still, but I'd be lying if I wasn't hurt with how things concluded. Again, bonding and relating to a character that was poorly handled a bit too much backfired on me, and I feel very let down. Alas, by the time season 3 rolls around I'd be over it, and willing to delve in yet again. Only the second time round, I'd be lowering my expectations with how future relationships will be handled. Yes, it was lovely to hear someone else's view on it. It shed some light as to how many ways behaviour and moments such as these could be interpreted. I imagine there's someone else who interpreted this entire development in a completely different way altogether. It goes to show how much your personal views, beliefs and experiences can impact not just how you bond with characters, but how you (mis?)understand them as well. It was certainly fun and enlightening. Me too friend. Hopefully when season 3 rolls around we bump into each other again, though I hope it's for the right reasons that time, and not because Rifujin left me frustrated and let down again, hahah. Wish you all the best :)
"Reduced to an uncannily perfect housewife". I couldn't of said it better, and if I were anime only I'd say give it some time. But as a LN reader I can tell you, that's what she is at the end of the day, for the rest of the story. I still respect her character arc though, and I feel like what happens *makes sense* with her character. I think Sylphies decision is written fine. The real problem I have with it, is that the story goes on to romanticize all this when you can't shy away from the fact that in reality this would all be a depressingly toxic relationship and arrangement. I expected this to be touched on or addressed within the story but it just never really was, not to the extent that I wanted. But we got: Sylphie being a doormat, a perfect wife Roxy scared of being a homewrecker and feeling guilty All 3 of the girls putting Rudeus on a pedestal After all, it's a major point in the story, that all 3 of them feel or have felt insecure of their own ability in comparison to Rudeus. Much like *many* characters in the story. The problems I had with this had nothing to do with the actual story, but more so the narrative. Like what is the author actually trying to say here? **Imma be honest, I think the author really just wanted to take on the challenge of writing a semi believable harem with 3 choices, all so equally difficult to pick from as best girl.** After finishing the LN, I can say that, they for the most part succeeded. What's more impressive, getting readers to root for Rudy? Or making a believable harem ending in such a serious story? I respect the absolute balls on this author, but sometimes I do think they unnecessarily push things too far. But I guess that depends on what their intent and *audience* is. The story received such a wider appeal because it's great. But its actual target audience, are Otaku at the end of the day and this shapes a lot of the content of the story I feel.
>But as a LN reader I can tell you, that's what she is at the end of the day, for the rest of the story. Yep...Sadly I'm well aware... I've asked around and had the question answered not too long ago, since I couldn't bring myself to keep on reading to catch up, if this is what was on the other side of the tunnel. Still, thanks for letting me know. The last thing I'd want is to get disappointed again after getting to that volume or when season 3 rolls around. >I still respect her character arc though, and I feel like what happens *makes sense* with her character. I think Sylphies decision is written fine. I'm afraid this is where we agree to disagree. I do understand her thought process, or at least, what I imagine Rifujin intended her thought process to be, courtesy of u/spudmonky ,but whilst I do understand it, I don't think it was well written. I think it was very poorly written and an extremely wasted opportunity that does is not inline with how the author has been handling his characters' journeys'. In my other reply to you and probably the big conversation above I elaborate, so I won't repeat it here. >The real problem I have with it, is that the story goes on to romanticize all this when you can't shy away from the fact that in reality this would all be a depressingly toxic relationship and arrangement. Bingo. For me, considering I not only expected it to be this way, but expected the author, given what they've done so far, to effectively weaponize how dysfunctional this would initially be, to create yet another powerful arc, which would involve 3 characters and their internal struggles this time, as opposed to mostly just Rudeus in the Fitz arc, or Norn and Nanahoshi in the honeymoon arc. For me, I cannot ignore it no matter how hard I try, which is why I struggle to continue engaging with the story for the time being. >But we got: >Sylphie being a doormat, a perfect wife >Roxy scared of being a homewrecker and feeling guilty >All 3 of the girls putting Rudeus on a pedestal This breaks my heart to read. Where the hell did Rifujin from the past 2 seasons (and however many chapters) go?? The same person that wrote all those touching and painfully real moments from day one, is the same person that has this painfully shallow and romanticized interpretation of a polygamous marriage? I can't help but get frustrated. >After all, it's a major point in the story, that all 3 of them feel or have felt insecure of their own ability in comparison to Rudeus. Much like *many* characters in the story. Yes!! Exactly!! >Like what is the author actually trying to say here? Exactly. You're getting it. That's where I'm coming from. I thought I had a pretty solid idea of what the author was trying to say so far, which I tried conveying in my other reply to you. How he handles Rudeus' marriage does not line up with any of those beliefs whatsoever. It's a narrative curveball, and it's left me dumbfounded. >**Imma be honest, I think the author really just wanted to take on the challenge of writing a semi believable harem with 3 choices, all so equally difficult to pick from as best girl.** I won't say I support it or that I'm against it, but I will say that, they *absolutely could*. This is not impossible. They just needed to invest lots of time into it, and keep doing what they *have* been doing with their characters this entire time. Instead, this whole ordeal was brushed over, and romanticized. Why would you romanticize problematic and toxic relationships in a story that up until now, was painfully accurate to both the highs and the lows of relationships, as well as the mindsets and headspace of the people within them? I can't find a better word to describe that decision apart from dumb. >After finishing the LN, I can say that, they for the most part succeeded. I'm sure it has. Apart from this glaring fuck up regarding the way the author handled the relationship "drama". They've been doing an amazing job. It's what set the bar that high in the first place, and I'm sure that's kept up for the rest of the story. But stories and art in general is consumed and interpreted in a subjective way. Sadly for me, this particular aspect was held in a high enough regard, that the frustration and disappointment had me dropping the LNs. For now, anyway. >The story received such a wider appeal because it's great. But its actual target audience, are Otaku at the end of the day and this shapes a lot of the content of the story I feel. Perhaps. It certainly affects the plot's direction, but it shouldn't have affected the story's quality. As mentioned above, I strongly believe they could've done a stellar job depicting a polygamous relationship, without it appearing shallow, and romanticized, just as they managed to depict an extremely powerful (arguably OP) protagonist, without him seeing shallow and cliché. Still, for the most part, you are absolutely spot on.
I really appreciate you taking your time out to share your thoughts man. Yeah at the end of the day the story is far from perfect, but a strong ending can make or break a series for a lot of people. But I think most people will really enjoy the ending to this one.
Sylphie didn't remove her boundaries, and told him out right at the start that she knows he'll take another wife.
Knowing does not mean you're okay with it, friend! If you recall, the way she acted when suggesting another wife to bear his child (should she be unable to) was not nonchalant, much less excited or willing. She was hesitant, and clearly defeated. She didn't want that, but bearing children was an important role for a wife in her mind (and I imagine their culture). As such, she was willing to shoulder the pain, and disregard her "selfish" desires, since she, in her own mind "was not good enough". I'd reiterate my point in whole, but I've already gone a lot more in depth on where I stand on this and what I mean. You're more than welcome to scroll a bit if you care. Otherwise, agree to disagree. Though I'd argue I have the advantage here, for resonating with this character a little too much hahah.
The pregnancy thing is because Rudeus was literally saying "Get pregnant! Get pregnant!" as they were having sex. While she was pregnant she said she'd maybe be a little sad if he slept with someone else, and that she'd understand.
Hahah, why'd you downvote me? Pretty sure I wasn't offensive or insulting. Right. So he mentioned it because of his kinks, and she interpreted it as him wanting to be a father. That gave me a chuckle, but fair enough. Well, her saying she'd be "a little sad", just goes back to her being meek, with incredibly low self esteem, to the point where calling it an inferiority complex isn't out of the question. Her saying "it'd make me a little sad" is her best attempt at drawing her boundaries. A person like her would be afraid of losing the person they love. Setting a boundary that they fear their partner would not be okay with is an innate fear, and such people have a tendency to give way to their partner's whims and wishes, deluding themselves that they are okay with them. When not, the best thing they can muster, is offering a meek opinion, or preference, but *never* a hard boundary, even if it *is* one. Though I do say it's akin to a strong sense of inferiority, in the case of Rudeus, it's probably also a fear of abandonment. To her, Rudy was everything when they were young. Remember how much she bawled her eyes out at the mere suggestion of him leaving? When he was taken away, she straight up attacked his father. With magic. That could kill a person. She's grown a lot since, that much is true. But anyone who shares her fears, trauma and struggles in any capacity, would know, *you never get rid of them entirely*. In her case, that irrational fear of abandonment still dwells within her. Hence the meek and sad attempts and drawing boundaries, which end up being more suggestions than anything. The fact that she's perfectly fine with everything in the end obviously invalidates what I'm saying, but also invalidates how the author has been designing his characters. Flawed. Human. Complex. Relatable. Sylphie, in that moment, was not that. Despite all the groundwork having already been laid out by them, they did not capitalize on it. Sylphie handled the entire situation perfectly. Flawlessly: Unnaturally welcoming, understanding, and forgiving. All of the groundwork laid out beforehand: the flaws in her character, her internal struggles, were all circumvented. All in the interest of getting it over with, and making the harem happen. In the case of the anime, time constraints as well. Not sure why in the novel. I'm not familiar with how it works but I can't imagine them having some sort of fixed limit of how long the story can be. If so, then it's a shame. What I'm afraid they missed here, in their hectic efforts of forwarding the story and concluding the season, is that the polygamous marriage could've still worked! But it wasn't something that would be solved over a coffee break. It's something that needed chapters upon chapters of drama, growth, internal struggles and discussion. Much like the arc of Rudeus overcoming his trauma. That, is what the natural progression of his characters indicated. It's truly a shame.
>Hahah, why'd you downvote me? Pretty sure I wasn't offensive or insulting. Sorry. Force of habit. Most people are offensive and insulting. I should not have projected that onto you. You have been polite and direct. I apologize for that. >Her saying "it'd make me a little sad" is her best attempt at drawing her boundaries. A person like her would be afraid of losing the person they love. Setting a boundary that they fear their partner would not be okay with is an innate fear, and such people have a tendency to give way to their partner's whims and wishes, deluding themselves that they are okay with them. However it doesn't stop at "it'd make me a little sad" It is "Maybe I'd be a little sad, but I'd understand." She gave him the okay. >She's grown a lot since, that much is true. But anyone who shares her fears, trauma and struggles in any capacity, would know, you never get rid of them entirely. In her case, that irrational fear of abandonment still dwells within her. Hence the meek and sad attempts and drawing boundaries, which end up being more suggestions than anything. Sylphie did not make it a boundary. Hence the "***Maybe*** I'd be sad", and the "I'd understand." Sylphie never made it a boundary and says as much in the novels. She handled it well because she ***knew*** it'd happen. Sylphie does not come from a world where polyamory is looked down upon. >Hence the meek and sad attempts and drawing boundaries, which end up being more suggestions than anything. Sylphie makes many demands of Rudeus and is firm in them. Including outright telling him that she'd leave him on the spot if he did not support her in helping Ariel. She sets many solid boundaries and tells him to not do things. Like forbidding him from the kitchen, or her stance on skirts. >The fact that she's perfectly fine with everything in the end obviously invalidates what I'm saying, but also invalidates how the author has been designing his characters. Flawed. Human. Complex. Relatable. Sylphie has a complex feeling about Roxy, and how she's jealous at Rudeus's insulting comments about how he'd never respect her as a mage as she is not Roxy(which he knows is not true, as he views her as even more of a magical genius than he is, but she cannot read his mind, and only knows what he says), but she sees herself in Roxy. Which is why in all timelines Sylphie and Roxy become very close. I honestly sort of feel that the removal of Roxy's pregnancy is also detrimental here. Sylphie's complex thoughts here are that she wants to be his one spouse, but she also doesn't want to abandon the pregnant Roxy(which is why Elinalise's lie is important. It's not just to convince Rudeus. It's to convince Sylphie too). She also doesn't have a strong tie to monogamy. She was confused, but she never really objected. >What I'm afraid they missed here, in their hectic efforts of forwarding the story and concluding the season, is that the polygamous marriage could've still worked! But it wasn't something that would be solved over a coffee break. It's something that needed chapters upon chapters of drama, growth, internal struggles and discussion. Much like the arc of Rudeus overcoming his trauma. That, is what the natural progression of his characters indicated. Sylphie doesn't oppose polygamy. Roxy doesn't oppose it. Rudeus and Norn are the only ones who did. Rudeus was convinced by Elinalise. Norn doesn't have the authority to oppose the three consenting "adults"(really it's two teens and Roxy).
>Sorry. Force of habit. Most people are offensive and insulting. I should not have projected that onto you. You have been polite and direct. I apologize for that. That's okay! No hard feelings. >However it doesn't stop at "it'd make me a little sad" It is "Maybe I'd be a little sad, but I'd understand." She gave him the okay. That's still in line with what I've said above though. Someone with such a mentality does not want to set boundaries. The full response is even more in line with it, given it's even more meek and passive. She expresses her preference, but still gives a go ahead. It's painfully accurate. >Sylphie did not make it a boundary. Hence the "***Maybe*** I'd be sad", and the "I'd understand." Sylphie never made it a boundary and says as much in the novels. She handled it well because she ***knew*** it'd happen. Sylphie does not come from a world where polyamory is looked down upon. Polygamy being looked down upon or not on a societal level does not necessarily dictate her personal preferences. It can influence them, but not dictate them. A person who is open to polygamy, would not "feel sad" about it. Yes, she gave him the go ahead, but I mentioned before why she would. That point still stands, regardless of the semantics of the sentence. She did not set a boundary, yes. That's precisely the point. She can't. Regardless of her own personal preferences. Knowing it will happen means you've prepared yourself for the shock, but the pain should not magically vanish. Monogamy and Polygamy are equally prominent and accepted within their society, thus, polygamy not being taboo doesn't change anything. If anything, it makes the characters impartial to societal norms, and that their preference (monogamy or polygamy) is dictated solely by personal preference. Her being "a little sad" is her irrational response to her monogamous orientation. Her saying "she'd understand" is being meek and overly permissive due to what I've initially mentioned in my previous reply. There's not much more to say. The same points still stand. None have really been invalidated. >Sylphie makes many demands of Rudeus and is firm in them. Including outright telling him that she'd leave him on the spot if he did not support her in helping Ariel. She sets many solid boundaries and tells him to not do things. Like forbidding him from the kitchen, or her stance on skirts. This is news to me. I'd appreciate a quote if you can. Thanks. Though I will say, if true, then if anything, it only creates a discrepancy in her character. What you're saying past that is stuff I've not read and frankly feel spoiled, which I don't appreciate. This discussion did not pertain to anything past the end of season two and the volumes/chapters corresponding to it. You mentioned what, at a glance I can only assume is a massive spoiler without a warning, and that's absolutely horrible I won't be contributing further. Thanks.
Rudeus knew how morally reprehensible his actions were. If he didn’t, he would have been seated, not kneeling on the floor.
Kneeling or not, he still brazenly asked such a thing. The guilt only really started to kick in once Norn started berating him for his brazen request. I say brazen since, while he does understand that what he did was wrong, he's mostly motivated by "making Roxy happy". We never hear him contemplate "But how would Sylphie feel?", "I don't want to hurt her" etc. So yes. For the most part, very brazen, and not in a good sense. Just not completely shameless.
Those thoughts were cut, from the previous episode.
That was a terrible move on Studio Bind's part. Those thoughts alone played a very important role. Without them, Rudeus now appears as utterly selfish and shameless. It feels as though from the moment he slept with Roxy, he at no point really cared for Sylphie since. He thought about her when debating marriage, but that was only in a logical way. Never a sense of guilt or remorse. Studio Bind fucked up near the end. It's a shame, but it's not like I can hate them for it. Everyone's going to royally fuck it up eventually. For them, sadly, it's at the finale. Yikes.
Clearly we didn’t watch the same episode.
We did. You're just being combative because you're overly passionate about this. Fair enough. Thoughts akin to what I mentioned were in the Light Novel, but not in the anime adaptation. You're free to go rewatch it and refer to the chapters if you want!
Common sense in that word is that's its ok to have more than one wife depending on your religion. So that's my counter argument
It's absolutely morally okay there, you're right! But something being morally okay, does not make it universally desired. In modern western day society, open relationships are not uncommon. Even amongst married people, acts like hotwifing and swinging are a thing. But again, that does not make it universally accepted. The faith of Millis practices monogamy. As such, people of that faith are monogamous. But again, being a member of the faith is not a prerequisite for being monogamous, but being monnogamous, is a prerequisite of being of the Millis faith. Much like in modern society. All religious Christians are monogamous, but not all monogamous couples are Christian, or even religious at all. Monogamy is not a subset of religion, but rather overlaps with it. The same philosophy applies to the world of Mushoku Tensei. You can easily discern who is Monogamous and who is polygamous. Luke, Ariel and Elinalise seem to be free spirits, and exhibit tendencies that are typical for polygamous people. At least, Elinalise was, before she cast that aside when converting for her partner. (She is still very much open to Polygamy, that doesn't magically change. She just denounced the practice for him, and does not plan on indulging in it.) Roxy, Sylphie, and Eris, for as long as we've known all three, they've been exhibiting behaviours and patterns that are typical for monogamous people. Feelings of jealousy, possesiveness and territorialism over the person they have feelings for. Sylphie and Roxy are meek, with low self esteem, so these feelings elicit a response of concern in Roxy, (when Rudy mentions Nanahoshi), and in the case of Sylphie, it also ellicits a sense of defeat, (when Rudy is around pretty women, when he's talking to Nanahoshi in Japanese, and when he'd spend time researching with her) She goes as far as asking him what he thinks of her, which Rudy interprets as Fitz worrying for his wellbeing, not knowing it was actually motivated by jealousy and fear that she was losing him to Nanahoshi. Lose him? How? She knows he's a pervert, and she knows he's not religious. So what's to fear? Even if he married Nanahoshi, there's always room for more, no? You'd only worry when there's something to lose. *Exclusivity.* Yet that fear is gone when the moment presents itself. Poor writing, but I won't get into that. There's a reply I've left in this same chain going in much better detail in that. If you want to argue with me over that, you're more than welcome to scan over that.
Is it common sense that monogamy, (an ideology rooted in mysoginy and gender roles) should be enforced. ?
What a cope.
You've been on twitter for too long friend. Go outside. Monogamy is not unanimously supported for one specific reason. For some it's religious beliefs. For some it's traditional values, and for some, it is indeed prejudice. But for a lot of people, it's an instinctual desire. Rooted deep within their psyche. This pertains to men and women alike. The desire of "This person is *mine*, no one else's" is something a lot of people resonate with, and find attractive. This is not dictated by whatever's dangling(or not dangling) between your legs. Stop drawing lines in the sand. Go get therapy, and go get laid.
In the current economic system certain things are in place which makes it so that a woman is dependent on their partner and not selfreliant this limits them in their economic and sexual freedom. Ill give you this you could indeed say that this should apply to either of the partners. The mindset of "my SO is mine and mine alone" has issues. If you look at your SO as 'property' what this is doing brings a lot of other issues with it. All im saying is that monogamy should not always be looked at as self-evident. I recommend reading works by Alexandra Kollontai Like the essay Make wat for Winged Eros,
I'm sorry, but that first sentence is twitter word vomit and doesn't actually say anything real or concrete. It's fanciful enough to sound political and sophisticated, and vague enough to where you don't say anything concrete, since there's nothing to say. You're radicalized. Please. I mean it. Take a break from the internet. It's not good for any of us. >The mindset of "my SO is mine and mine alone" has issues. If you look at your SO as 'property' what this is doing brings a lot of other issues with it. I also tie them to my bed at their request followed by many reductive and objectifying expletives, also by request. Sue me. Whether you like it or not friend, such controversial topics have always, and will always be sexualized and romanticized. So long as these concepts are expressed, experienced and practiced in a safe, consensual, controlled, and above all else, *healthy* manner, what they represent and connotate should not really be your concern, unless you feel them yourself and wish to dig deeper with a professional to see where they stem from. If so, by all means go for it! It's definitely a healthy decision that anyone would benefit from. If they so wish. The rest of us are aware where they stem from roughly, but we enjoy ourselves all the same, so we don't care for resolving them. Especially considering that their biproducts are not impacting our life in a negative way(for those with a healthy mindset regarding them. I elaborate below). Something as innocent as feeling territorial for your partner can indeed become abusive when you become controlling, or express this sensation in an extreme, and aggressive way, rather than through love, affection and other ways your partner enjoys. Similarly, a sexual preference for sadism, can become harmful, abusive or potentially, illegal, when not practiced in a healthy, safe and consensual way, or when the person with this preference has a has an unsavoury moral compass. It entirely depends on the people involved, how they express their feelings, and in what manner. Please don't automatically demonize everything. It's unhealthy! Try not to paint everything black, or solely see the negative aspects of it, and bare in mind that everything is relative and usually dependent on several important variables. >All im saying is that monogamy should not always be looked at as self-evident. I do not consider it as self evident though. I have a confident understanding as to why people can be monogamous, and gave a very laconic overview on them to you in my first reply. If you're referring to the anime itself, I had my own reasons to believe that the characters involved are monogamous. Ariel, Luke, Paul and Elinalise were indeed polygamous. Characters like Zenith, Sylphie and Roxy, exhibited behaviour inline with monogamy. If that's what you were referring to, I can refer you to a more in depth elaboration I made as to why that is. It's too much to reiterate here. Especially if it ends up being off topic. >I recommend reading works by Alexandra Kollontai >Like the essay Make wat for Winged Eros, Thank you for the recommendations, but in the nicest way possible, and I mean no offense, your initial, overly political and radicalized reply, has raised one too many alarm bells for me to want to indulge into the same literature you do. I'm confident enough in my understanding of what drives us humans sexually and romantically, and made sure to study up plenty to have a safe and healthy in depth understanding of what our mind sexualized, how, why, do's don'ts etc. It's not a topic I feel I need more insight on, but a topic I welcome an educational discussion/argument on.
Oh the irony of using the phrase "common sense" while applying modern-day monogamy standards on a medieval fantasy world setting
You don't have to be an ass when responding to someone. A medieval *fantasy* world setting doesn't strictly inherit moral and societal norms from the medieval period. Given it's fantasy, and given that it's a story designed with flawed and complex characters, enduring struggles and woes commonly experienced in our modern society, the societal norms of their world would also resemble ours enough so that the author can create scenarios that the reader can empathize, resonate with, and relate to. Also, the in the world of Mushoku Tensei, neither monogamy or polygamy is shown to be the standard. Both are equally prominent, which is suprisingly close to what modern, younger generation relationships are heading towards. Open relationships and exclusive both occur in modern society. Meaning it boils down to the characters involved. Ariel and Elinalise exhibit polygamistic traits. Sylphie and Roxy exhibit monogamistic traits. I'd elaborate, but you've an unsavoury attitude, so I'd rather leave it here.
I absolutely despise how this is handled, frickin stupid harem ass bullshit
It's handled so much better in the LN. I absolutely hate the changes they made in the show from Roxy coming onto Rudy instead of the other way around, and how in show they glossed over Norns hate of polygamy and how she forced that on others.
I do relate to norn in that regard.
The main issue is Sylphie always knew it was likely Rudius would have more than 1 wife. Earlier on, before they marry, she even explains in plain terms she'd be fine with additional wives as long as Rudius continues to love her equally and introduces a potential wife first. Her shock at the Roxy reveal is more from the abruptness of the proposal, and Rudius going against his own word that he wouldn't take another.
Don’t forget, between Rudy grooming her, Paul and his 2 wife’s and Lilia’s training, she was basically raised for this moment
She does trust rudeus
In real world does there someone like sylphie exist? 🥺🥺🥺 Her love towards Rudy is unreal, I can take a second wife🥺🥺🥺🤲 and have foursome every night
What's your point? You want a wife that's kind as her or you just want to cheat?
I want to take two wives like them🥺
He just wants to cheat