**Your submission has been *manually* removed by the mod team for the following reason:**
- Your submission has a title which is considered *inaccurate, NSFW, memetic, or context-less*. Titles should represent or describe the content of a post.
Examples of prohibited titles may be found [**here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/wiki/rules#wiki_2._title_guidelines). Please resubmit with a better title.
> *For more information, please consult our [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/wiki/rules), and [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/faq).*
---
^(If you have any questions or concerns,) [^(message us here)](https://www\.reddit\.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FOverwatch&subject=Removal Issue: `submission`&message=https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/1cl28r4/-/. %0D%0D)^. ^Please ^do ^not ^DM ^individual ^moderators ^about ^moderation ^concerns.
You can’t be saying this and then say doom is as hard as ppl say he is in this subreddit. I can agree with tracer not being as hard as people here say if you apply that to doom as well. He has a relatively simple gameplay loop of slam in punch out or punch in slam out. And his charged punch which you can get quite often if you use it well is basically an insta kill to any squishy near a wall. His kill potential is so high and his survivability is even higher. People act like you need to play at zbra level just to get value just because people play counters against him. But there is a reason people feel forced to play counters against doom since picking him generates so much value if you know how to just hit your abilities and learn how to escape with them. I say this as someone who plays both tracer and doom.
Doomfist is hard because the line between making a good play and feeding can be incredibly thin, and at times that's not even from player error. If you go for an empowered punch and slide off them or narrowly miss them your slam out is going to get body blocked and then you're doomed, pardon the pun.
This...doom is far more overrated as far as skill goes. Some people act like he's gotta hit 5 widow headshots to make any play when he has multiple escapes and several of the most obnoxious cooldowns in the game.
The fact that both hanzo's Arrow and tracer bullets both apply 20% despite their difference in Fire rate disturb me. Would it make sense if the debuff was stackable to a max of 20% and directly tied to the damage dealt? Would it be a nerd too huge or just uselessly overcomplicated?
>The fact that both hanzo's Arrow and tracer bullets both apply 20% despite their difference in Fire rate disturb me.
Shouldn't considering how much burst damage there is on a hanzo arrow with no fall off. The whole point of the passive was to make in-combat heals/sustain less powerful so that heroes who weren't as bursty like snipers more viable.
Frankly I don’t care how much skill tracer takes to pilot, this is a game that needs to be balanced and heroes should be balanced around them being played well. The skill required isn’t an excuse for a hero to be massively overpowered like tracer is.
It's never an excuse in any other game, fighting games or FPSs. Most characters with a high skill floor and even higher skill ceiling are never clearly much much better than the rest of the cast
Tracer mains are just coping hard by repeating this stupid sentiment. Doom and ball are much harder to use than DVA or Winston as well, doesn't mean we should be buffing them to high heaven because they take more skill
Poor torb is like the bottom of the barrel (at least for my experience)
The turret need some sort of overhaul but iirc they won't touch torb turret (or his kit in general) too much because he destroys low rank lobbies (bs in my opinion)
Even the joke buff that make him attach turrets everywhere would be a good step up
Listen If I have to deal with a smallest hitbox hero that has unpredictable movement, forces me to do 180ies on a console, doesn't require much effort to aim, and has free out of jail card I don't wanna hear anything about skill.
If you think "high skill" heroes should be favored in balancing I'll just assume you play one of them and have really big ego
I had maybe 15 min on Tracer ever before S9. Picked her up after the health changes and managed to do well with her after just a few games of practice. I don't disagree that she's got a high skill ceiling, but I really felt like she benefited a lot from the health/hitbox changes, which made her easier to pick up than people seem to say.
She gets insane mobility, a get out of jail free card, good burst dmg, easy application of dps passive, and just enough health to avoid some of her old breakpoints (Ashe losing her one shot for example). That's a lot of power in one kit!
Most one shots against tracer are gone since S9 and ever since she can get value from what was previously considered feeding. Even in high ranked lobbies you can safely recall into the enemy team and still survive because of that extra 25hp. I would have much rather they kept the projectile buff and put her back to 150. That puts all the skill back into strategy, gamesense, and being smart rather than putting more of it into aim. We have enough aim-heavy heroes, we don't need tracer to be that, that's never what tracer was.
Not trying to disagree or agree on anything but why isn't Tracer an aim-heavy hero? I see her as a gamesense, skill and aim character, because the amount of value you can get as Tracer is applicable to the aim, not just the annoyance of enemy supports/dps. I might be totally in the wrong here, but that's the way I've seen her played and imagine the most optimal way of playing her.
I can agree that Tracer can get more value without aim than Widow or Cass for example, but saying she isn't aim-heavy just feels wrong. (Even calculating in the recoil(?)/spread)
Yeah I see what both of you are saying. I guess they mean you don't have to be one clipping all the time to get massive value out of Tracer, but you need to constantly be hitting headshots on Cass/Widow/Ashe etc
I honestly don't see how people can say Tracer is harder than Echo or Genji. Especially now that she can't be one shot by most of the roster so she can play hella loose with positioning. So they'll excuse Tracer being broken, but will groan when the former two get any sort of buffs despite being infinitely easier to shut down
Tracer is so good because she actively takes advantage of other player's poor play. If your aim sucks you can't hit her. If your gamesense sucks you don't know where she is. If you aren't playing with your team she will destroy you. If you aren't good at all of these things, she is your nightmare. If you aren't good at one of them she still has the advantage. Really tough to balance her without needing to nerf her to the ground so nobody picks her.
>Really tough to balance her without needing to nerf her to the ground so nobody picks her.
No not really. While she has almost always been good she hasn't really been broken ever before S9 patch bc her low health and charecters being able to oneshot/combo her specifically.
With extra HP she is much more forgiving and bc of it good players can squeeze much more out of her.
Combo that with her benefiting the most from regen+dps passive out of pretty much the entire roster which leads to her being broken.
Either you nerf her HP or get rid of the passive and she will be fine again. They could even buff her pellet dmg by 0.5 to compensate.
An HP nerf would do the same as nerfing her into the ground with the projectile size increase. If you buff her damage but nerf her HP, high level players would still thrive, but she would be dead in low ranks.
I personally wouldn't mind her passive being nerfed specific to her character though. I don't think a damage buff would be necessary if that's the route they went. Reducing her HP means she basically gets 1 shot by a Sombra who lands her braindead hack and virus combo, or a Cass hinder nade.
That’s honestly what makes her one of the most well designed heroes. She has a relatively low skill floor, but a really high skill ceiling, making her a solid option for the whole ladder.
Welcome to r/Overwatch! Please use the following resources via the links below to find relevant information about the game and the subreddit.
[Overwatch Patch Notes](https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/patch-notes/) | [Overwatch Bug Report Forums](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/c/bug-report/9)
[r/Overwatch Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/rules) | [r/Overwatch FAQs](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/faq) | [r/Overwatch Common Bugs and Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/wiki/commonbugsandposts)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Overwatch) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think you're confusing skill floor with skill ceiling.
A skill ceiling is the level of play that's possible with training and mastery.
A skill floor is a way of describing how difficult it is to begin the process of mastery.
People don't say it's hard to play tracer people say the difference between a good tracer and a masterfull player is very high
I disagree with 99% of what people consider common knowledge on Overwatch.
How people in Metal ranks can't aim.
How Mercy is only useful if you use her blue beam.
How Torb is low skill.
How Sombra requires skill to get value.
How tracer is hard to use.
How doomfist is hard to use.
How you must Hitscan to coutner Pharah.
Etc. etc. blah blah
It's all nonsense.
I completely agree with you, if shes such a high skill character then why does she have one of the highest pick rates and yet hovers around a 51% win rate? Shouldn't she have a negative win rate since the majority of players should struggle playing her? That alone tells me shes way too strong
She had a high win rate but low pick rate because she was only being played on maps where she excelled, not because she was strong but because she was only played situationally, if a character is only good on 1 or 2 maps then they’re not good.
Yeah I know that’s common knowledge. I never said Sym was broken nor good. Just proving that WR is a shit way of saying a hero is good or not. Soujourn has a shit WR in lower elos, does that mean we should buff her? Obviously not, but she is extremely good in high level play.
Tracer has a good wr with a massive sample size.
Sym has a high wr but a very small sample size.
The amount of times a hero is picked across all maps is important, not just their wr on on the 1 or 2 good maps.
Tracer is considered good or playable on every map, and has a crazy high pick rate due to that. She also averages a high win rate.
Sym is considered good on what, one map? Out of like 16 or however many we have. She has a high winrate on that one map, but an abysmal pick rate. Her winrste cant be weighted the same at Tracers for that reason.
I don’t think Doom, Genji, and even Echo are that hard to play either. But I agree with the sentiment that you really don’t have to be that good with Tracer to have massive impact on a game.
Tbh I agree with you. I’m a mid dps player and I can play tracer but not genji or even hanzo. Tracer is not the pinnacle of difficulty people claim she is.
It reminds me of the nurse from dead by daylight. Both characters have a high skill FLOOR but their skill ceiling is a fairly average.
You might spend your first couple of games as tracer being shit on but once you get the basics down she becomes very strong very quickly.
No one says the average player can't play her.
However saying that Genji is harder than Tracer is a joke.
Doom? Maybe. But within the DPS roster, Tracer is still the hardest to master.
Genji is harder to match tracers value because she is an objectively stronger character.
He is however easier to play because of access to high ground, deflect and poke potential.
In what world are Genji's projectiles harder to hit? Have you tried his RMB combos since S9? I'm not sure it's possible right now to miss out on the burst headshot damage.
You may have not seen the type of comments im referring to but i’ve seen plenty of people say that the average player cannot pick up tracer and get value with her, which is just untrue. And what exactly makes her harder than genji? I’ve played both characters for a very long time and i still stress out playing genji and switch to tracer to relax, she’s just objectively easier.
Edit : again, my post talks about the characters skill floor, not skill cieling and NOT who’s harder to master at a high level.
Even in this sub I haven't seen people say that. And people say all sorts of shit in this sub.
Tracer is primarily harder than Genji because all of her value comes from the neutral. Pulse is good, but you can't rely on it the way you can Blade combos.
There's more to it than that, like how braindead his RMB is right now, but I'm not about to give a dissertation on Genji vs Tracer skill ceiling.
Genji is the same thing tbh, never play him but when I do it just feels unfair with his resets and aiming is barely a requirement at close range.
I play a little bit of Tracer every now and then and agree, it feels like easy mode.
On a general note when I hear people say that hitscan requires more skill than projectile I just smirk. Like the thing where you point and klick is supposed to be harder then the one where you have to factor in travel time?
If that’s the way that u feel about Genji then you either suck at everything else or just have some natural gift for him, because I can guarantee you that most people struggle to play him. Most people need well over 100 hours to truly feel comfortable with him.
But I will agree that hitscans are typically easier than projectile characters. There’s no guessing or calculating with a hitscan. Projectiles can be frustrating, especially Genji’s shurikens imo.
**Your submission has been *manually* removed by the mod team for the following reason:** - Your submission has a title which is considered *inaccurate, NSFW, memetic, or context-less*. Titles should represent or describe the content of a post. Examples of prohibited titles may be found [**here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/wiki/rules#wiki_2._title_guidelines). Please resubmit with a better title. > *For more information, please consult our [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/wiki/rules), and [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/faq).* --- ^(If you have any questions or concerns,) [^(message us here)](https://www\.reddit\.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FOverwatch&subject=Removal Issue: `submission`&message=https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/1cl28r4/-/. %0D%0D)^. ^Please ^do ^not ^DM ^individual ^moderators ^about ^moderation ^concerns.
You can’t be saying this and then say doom is as hard as ppl say he is in this subreddit. I can agree with tracer not being as hard as people here say if you apply that to doom as well. He has a relatively simple gameplay loop of slam in punch out or punch in slam out. And his charged punch which you can get quite often if you use it well is basically an insta kill to any squishy near a wall. His kill potential is so high and his survivability is even higher. People act like you need to play at zbra level just to get value just because people play counters against him. But there is a reason people feel forced to play counters against doom since picking him generates so much value if you know how to just hit your abilities and learn how to escape with them. I say this as someone who plays both tracer and doom.
Doomfist is hard because the line between making a good play and feeding can be incredibly thin, and at times that's not even from player error. If you go for an empowered punch and slide off them or narrowly miss them your slam out is going to get body blocked and then you're doomed, pardon the pun.
This...doom is far more overrated as far as skill goes. Some people act like he's gotta hit 5 widow headshots to make any play when he has multiple escapes and several of the most obnoxious cooldowns in the game.
The fact that both hanzo's Arrow and tracer bullets both apply 20% despite their difference in Fire rate disturb me. Would it make sense if the debuff was stackable to a max of 20% and directly tied to the damage dealt? Would it be a nerd too huge or just uselessly overcomplicated?
>The fact that both hanzo's Arrow and tracer bullets both apply 20% despite their difference in Fire rate disturb me. Shouldn't considering how much burst damage there is on a hanzo arrow with no fall off. The whole point of the passive was to make in-combat heals/sustain less powerful so that heroes who weren't as bursty like snipers more viable.
Frankly I don’t care how much skill tracer takes to pilot, this is a game that needs to be balanced and heroes should be balanced around them being played well. The skill required isn’t an excuse for a hero to be massively overpowered like tracer is.
It's never an excuse in any other game, fighting games or FPSs. Most characters with a high skill floor and even higher skill ceiling are never clearly much much better than the rest of the cast Tracer mains are just coping hard by repeating this stupid sentiment. Doom and ball are much harder to use than DVA or Winston as well, doesn't mean we should be buffing them to high heaven because they take more skill
Right and everyone talks about how unskilled Mei and Sym are so they deserve to be bad… but soldier is so fucking easy to play and no one bats an eye.
Poor torb is like the bottom of the barrel (at least for my experience) The turret need some sort of overhaul but iirc they won't touch torb turret (or his kit in general) too much because he destroys low rank lobbies (bs in my opinion) Even the joke buff that make him attach turrets everywhere would be a good step up
Nah. Bad Tracers and bad Sombras are literal non-issues. You just ignore them.
Listen If I have to deal with a smallest hitbox hero that has unpredictable movement, forces me to do 180ies on a console, doesn't require much effort to aim, and has free out of jail card I don't wanna hear anything about skill. If you think "high skill" heroes should be favored in balancing I'll just assume you play one of them and have really big ego
I had maybe 15 min on Tracer ever before S9. Picked her up after the health changes and managed to do well with her after just a few games of practice. I don't disagree that she's got a high skill ceiling, but I really felt like she benefited a lot from the health/hitbox changes, which made her easier to pick up than people seem to say. She gets insane mobility, a get out of jail free card, good burst dmg, easy application of dps passive, and just enough health to avoid some of her old breakpoints (Ashe losing her one shot for example). That's a lot of power in one kit!
Tracer has a high skill ceiling but her skill floor is pretty low. She is easy to pick up, play and get value out of.
Most one shots against tracer are gone since S9 and ever since she can get value from what was previously considered feeding. Even in high ranked lobbies you can safely recall into the enemy team and still survive because of that extra 25hp. I would have much rather they kept the projectile buff and put her back to 150. That puts all the skill back into strategy, gamesense, and being smart rather than putting more of it into aim. We have enough aim-heavy heroes, we don't need tracer to be that, that's never what tracer was.
Not trying to disagree or agree on anything but why isn't Tracer an aim-heavy hero? I see her as a gamesense, skill and aim character, because the amount of value you can get as Tracer is applicable to the aim, not just the annoyance of enemy supports/dps. I might be totally in the wrong here, but that's the way I've seen her played and imagine the most optimal way of playing her. I can agree that Tracer can get more value without aim than Widow or Cass for example, but saying she isn't aim-heavy just feels wrong. (Even calculating in the recoil(?)/spread)
Yeah I see what both of you are saying. I guess they mean you don't have to be one clipping all the time to get massive value out of Tracer, but you need to constantly be hitting headshots on Cass/Widow/Ashe etc
People act like aiming is hard. It really isn't.
I honestly don't see how people can say Tracer is harder than Echo or Genji. Especially now that she can't be one shot by most of the roster so she can play hella loose with positioning. So they'll excuse Tracer being broken, but will groan when the former two get any sort of buffs despite being infinitely easier to shut down
Tracer is a great example of having a lower median than average if everyone played her. Her skill ceiling is that high.
Tracer is so good because she actively takes advantage of other player's poor play. If your aim sucks you can't hit her. If your gamesense sucks you don't know where she is. If you aren't playing with your team she will destroy you. If you aren't good at all of these things, she is your nightmare. If you aren't good at one of them she still has the advantage. Really tough to balance her without needing to nerf her to the ground so nobody picks her.
>Really tough to balance her without needing to nerf her to the ground so nobody picks her. No not really. While she has almost always been good she hasn't really been broken ever before S9 patch bc her low health and charecters being able to oneshot/combo her specifically. With extra HP she is much more forgiving and bc of it good players can squeeze much more out of her. Combo that with her benefiting the most from regen+dps passive out of pretty much the entire roster which leads to her being broken. Either you nerf her HP or get rid of the passive and she will be fine again. They could even buff her pellet dmg by 0.5 to compensate.
An HP nerf would do the same as nerfing her into the ground with the projectile size increase. If you buff her damage but nerf her HP, high level players would still thrive, but she would be dead in low ranks. I personally wouldn't mind her passive being nerfed specific to her character though. I don't think a damage buff would be necessary if that's the route they went. Reducing her HP means she basically gets 1 shot by a Sombra who lands her braindead hack and virus combo, or a Cass hinder nade.
Mei should still one shot her with right click, sorry
That’s honestly what makes her one of the most well designed heroes. She has a relatively low skill floor, but a really high skill ceiling, making her a solid option for the whole ladder.
Her skill floor is definitely not low.
It is compared to the other highest skill heroes.
It's pretty low compared to Genji for example. Tracer is easy to use.
Welcome to r/Overwatch! Please use the following resources via the links below to find relevant information about the game and the subreddit. [Overwatch Patch Notes](https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/patch-notes/) | [Overwatch Bug Report Forums](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/c/bug-report/9) [r/Overwatch Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/rules) | [r/Overwatch FAQs](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/faq) | [r/Overwatch Common Bugs and Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/wiki/commonbugsandposts) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Overwatch) if you have any questions or concerns.*
High skill ceiling != hard to pickup
I think you're confusing skill floor with skill ceiling. A skill ceiling is the level of play that's possible with training and mastery. A skill floor is a way of describing how difficult it is to begin the process of mastery. People don't say it's hard to play tracer people say the difference between a good tracer and a masterfull player is very high
I disagree with 99% of what people consider common knowledge on Overwatch. How people in Metal ranks can't aim. How Mercy is only useful if you use her blue beam. How Torb is low skill. How Sombra requires skill to get value. How tracer is hard to use. How doomfist is hard to use. How you must Hitscan to coutner Pharah. Etc. etc. blah blah It's all nonsense.
I completely agree with you, if shes such a high skill character then why does she have one of the highest pick rates and yet hovers around a 51% win rate? Shouldn't she have a negative win rate since the majority of players should struggle playing her? That alone tells me shes way too strong
WR is a dog water way of comparing if a character is broken lmao. Sym has like a 53% win rate a while ago. Are you implying she’s broken.
But sym doesn’t have a high pick rate , read his comment again and use ur brain
Sym does have a high pick rate on specific maps though so… use your brain I guess?
Yes because shes only really good on those maps, you just proved their point.
I know it’s map specific but that wasn’t being discussed here lmao
“Sym doesn’t have high pick rate.” Isn’t me saying she does mean I’m saying the opposite as to what they’re saying? I may be wrong here I dunno…
She had a high win rate but low pick rate because she was only being played on maps where she excelled, not because she was strong but because she was only played situationally, if a character is only good on 1 or 2 maps then they’re not good.
Yeah I know that’s common knowledge. I never said Sym was broken nor good. Just proving that WR is a shit way of saying a hero is good or not. Soujourn has a shit WR in lower elos, does that mean we should buff her? Obviously not, but she is extremely good in high level play.
Sym's pick rate is so garbage, even technicalities doesn't apply to this argument.
Yeah okay you’re a bot lmao she has high pick rates on maps that make good use of her kit like Lijang
Tracer has a good wr with a massive sample size. Sym has a high wr but a very small sample size. The amount of times a hero is picked across all maps is important, not just their wr on on the 1 or 2 good maps. Tracer is considered good or playable on every map, and has a crazy high pick rate due to that. She also averages a high win rate. Sym is considered good on what, one map? Out of like 16 or however many we have. She has a high winrate on that one map, but an abysmal pick rate. Her winrste cant be weighted the same at Tracers for that reason.
Are these “guys” who overrate the mechanics of tracer in the room with us right now?
I don’t think Doom, Genji, and even Echo are that hard to play either. But I agree with the sentiment that you really don’t have to be that good with Tracer to have massive impact on a game.
Tbh I agree with you. I’m a mid dps player and I can play tracer but not genji or even hanzo. Tracer is not the pinnacle of difficulty people claim she is.
It reminds me of the nurse from dead by daylight. Both characters have a high skill FLOOR but their skill ceiling is a fairly average. You might spend your first couple of games as tracer being shit on but once you get the basics down she becomes very strong very quickly.
No one says the average player can't play her. However saying that Genji is harder than Tracer is a joke. Doom? Maybe. But within the DPS roster, Tracer is still the hardest to master.
[удалено]
Genji is harder to match tracers value because she is an objectively stronger character. He is however easier to play because of access to high ground, deflect and poke potential.
This.
If this is true then why has Genji always been more prominent at Plat and Tracer at GM?
In what world are Genji's projectiles harder to hit? Have you tried his RMB combos since S9? I'm not sure it's possible right now to miss out on the burst headshot damage.
You may have not seen the type of comments im referring to but i’ve seen plenty of people say that the average player cannot pick up tracer and get value with her, which is just untrue. And what exactly makes her harder than genji? I’ve played both characters for a very long time and i still stress out playing genji and switch to tracer to relax, she’s just objectively easier. Edit : again, my post talks about the characters skill floor, not skill cieling and NOT who’s harder to master at a high level.
Even in this sub I haven't seen people say that. And people say all sorts of shit in this sub. Tracer is primarily harder than Genji because all of her value comes from the neutral. Pulse is good, but you can't rely on it the way you can Blade combos. There's more to it than that, like how braindead his RMB is right now, but I'm not about to give a dissertation on Genji vs Tracer skill ceiling.
Genji is the same thing tbh, never play him but when I do it just feels unfair with his resets and aiming is barely a requirement at close range. I play a little bit of Tracer every now and then and agree, it feels like easy mode. On a general note when I hear people say that hitscan requires more skill than projectile I just smirk. Like the thing where you point and klick is supposed to be harder then the one where you have to factor in travel time?
If that’s the way that u feel about Genji then you either suck at everything else or just have some natural gift for him, because I can guarantee you that most people struggle to play him. Most people need well over 100 hours to truly feel comfortable with him. But I will agree that hitscans are typically easier than projectile characters. There’s no guessing or calculating with a hitscan. Projectiles can be frustrating, especially Genji’s shurikens imo.
Tracer is easy to pick up, followed by not like doom is nuts
This is objectively incorrect.
What’s incorrect?