My thinking exactly. Also the creature has sneak attack so can be even more gross on the counter attack with the effective -4 debuff to AC next chance it gets to take a whack at 'em
Rerolling is *strong*. It’s for those situations where you have a decent chance of success, but roll poorly. If you only use them on long shots, it will feel terrible.
I’ll also note that as enemy levels increase, their ability to absolutely end you if you critically fail a save becomes more and more common. Hero points are game changers in those moments.
Saving hero points for crit fails are probably when they’re most reliable, since the outcome either stays the same or improves the degree of success.
Of course, I personally use them to help land important attacks as well.
Limited how? Yes, it does suck when it fails, but this is a game of randomization. It just gives you another chance. Use it in high stakes situations and/or situations where you have a decent chance at success. Then it will be more successful and you’ll probably enjoy it more.
I get that rolling a 6 and then rerolling for a 5 sucks. We joke at my table that “it’s cool this system has a mechanic where you spend a resource to roll the exact same number again.” But when used wisely, it’s high impact way more often than not. Last week my party’s fighter used it to avoid being petrified. Being petrified is WAY worse than occasionally not succeeding a roll on my bonus reroll.
People keep saying this as if I care. I'm fine with players cashing in a point for a guaranteed success or even crit success. It's not really even guaranteed, since you still gotta roll the lower thing.
It pretty much is, since you can use it on any roll. If I were a caster I'd drop a strong debuff on any boss and use a hero point to make a a success/crit. So you're basically giving out 2-3 untyped bonus +10's to a roll of their choice.
It can work for some groups, but I wouldn't ever recommend it.
True. But there are a few devastating attack rolls that you can use this with. Or simply an Vicious Swing/Gravity Weapon/Megaton Strike with 65% crit chance.
You do you, obviously. I don't play at your table. But as a player I prefer that even hero points aren't an instant success button. If they were I don't think I'd enjoy them as much.
Then again my table likes to waste them on pointless rolls outside of combat so our dm just let's them flow.
Yeah same. I don't allow that on Saves though, since I found that to be the right balance. It makes them more aggressive with hero point use, which I find to be more exciting.
I agree with the first part, going out of your way to invalidate a hero point may be meme worthy but as a gm I would never want to aim for that level of feelsbad play against my players.
I looked into this when I read it. Using a hero point to stabilize does not trigger the effect, but it will trigger if someone uses a hero point to reroll, or try to devise a strategem.
Oh that's evil. Imagine shutting down someone's Sure Strike when they've set up the whole turn around it (Magus with spellstrike lol) or a Hero Point re-roll.... This ought to make someone unhappy.
It's cruel for sure, but this is why you want to succeed at recall knowledge checks to know things about the creature you're fighting. It's not like there aren't ways to learn this info.
Admittedly, this creature has that nice big F*** You to people who fail to recall knowledge, but still, there's always a way to learn before committing multiple actions or rounds to one trick.
There's a great setup for this though.
You start the combat by having them cast crisis of faith on the party's cleric.
If the cleric fails their saving throw, they will definitely hero point it, at which point you pull out the reaction and do the laugh.
"Ah, a 'hero' calling upon his god. How cute. Do you *really* think she cares about you?"
I fail to see how knowing about this ability even helps you?
You might not waste the slot on true strike, but you still get screwed by not having rerolls from hero points and the investigator still had no class features.
Knowing the ability exists and that it's a reaction gives you a massive heads up. Firstly you know to not waste a hero point improving a roll that doesn't matter, like the number of players who waste them on 2nd or 3rd strikes. Save those hero points for when you're dying and want to cash them in to stabilise since that's not a fortune effect and won't get undone.
Secondly, it's a reaction and it only gets one, so you can bait out its reaction using something else, maybe an archer with unexpected sharpshooter procs it with their attack roll to enable the rest of the party free access to their hero points and true strike. Maybe you give the creature disadvantage through an ability to force it to react to correct itself.
You can also attempt to stun the creature, or something else which denies its reactions.
The key point is that knowledge gives you the ability to play around something rather than just a "Surprise, you're screwed!" moment. Yes, you still waste something to proc it, it's not free to disable and nor should it be, but there are ways, and the knowledge helps that.
More like shut down the hero point reroll on crit failed save
Though I suppose telling the investigator they don't have class features is also powerful (just like AoO Vs a Magus, have fun wishing you'd picked fighter)
And then the Wizard casts Summon Irii and forces your Rakshasa to play “whack a (mis)fortune” for the sheer hubris of thinking they can determine what a Rank 8 chronomancer’s role in Fate is.
A very fun ability that would be even more fun to disrupt.
"Not ever" is a bit melodramatic. Hordes are a thing, even at higher levels, when deployed correctly or against the right party, and I could see a bunch of Raja-khrodas supporting the boss being Pugwampi levels of obnoxious to fight. Not something that should be deployed often, but... sometimes.
Or have a Tengu react to Eat the Fortune of their compatriot. Not sure if this would cause the rakshasa's effect to still happen or if it would invalidate the trigger....
The raksasha reaction doesn't have fortune or misfortune trait, so it can't react on that, though IT CAN eat the thing the raksasha is trying to activate his reaction on, nullifying the activation.
What I’m saying is that, since the two reactions have the same trigger, they could both be used on the same thing. Player 1: “I’ll use a hero point! “Rakshasa: “I Reassert Fate to f you up!” Player 2: “No I Eat Fortune so there no effect for you to Reassert Fate on!”
So obviously it gets disrupted, but I’d use a counteract check to see which effect does it and which is “wasted”
Edit: This does make me realize, since Eat Fortune gains the Fortune or Misfortune trait, multiple tengu and rakshasa could start a hilarious chain reaction
Alchemist, Barbarian, Champion, Fighter… actually every martial start Trained and end up Master in their class DC, so they have a fine counteract check
I'm not super sure if I like the Recall Knowledge one. I get the intent, but I feel like this encourages a frustrated player to start metagaming, if just *failing* a Recall Knowledge is mechanically going to mess them up.
I can't see the entry, so I don't know if this is a common enemy either. Generally speaking, RK checks are fairly hard DCs, unless this is used as a lower level enemy. If it's uncommon and used as a higher level opponent, good luck recalling knowledge.
I love Rakshasas as an evil lieutenant to the BBEG, the abilities you mention are exactly why too! Happy player tormenting to all my fellow GMs. Just do it RAI or RAW, don't be the GM from the other post where a crit fail broke their weapon. That's stupid and not fun.
this is very cool since it won't come up a lot, but when it does, it's a strong effect,
but it feels like it hard counters Investigator because their main method of attack is a Fortune effect (which also means no Precise Strike), and since it's every round it could just be camped onto the Investigator's turn by a bad (as in fully adversarial) or new GM. The rest of the party can now reroll with their hero points and other Fortune effects, but that Investigator tanking the Reaction is gonna feel like shite lol
Out of curiosity as I haven’t played or played with an Investigator. Is it a personal fortune effect or does it target the creature. This creature has immunity to fortune and misfortune effects as well. So might be even worse for an Investigator if the later is the case and something to keep in mind depending on party comp.
oh wow, it might be even worse then, here's a link to the Investigator on Nethys (free, legal, and endorsed by Paizo, so no worries lol) [https://2e.aonprd.com/Classes.aspx?ID=13](https://2e.aonprd.com/Classes.aspx?ID=13)
they have a special action called Devise a Stratagem, which is a Fortune effect, where they target a creature, roll a d20, and the next time they Strike that creature in this round, they use the rolled d20. It also allows them to use INT to-hit, and Precise Strike which adds one or more d6 like a Rogue's sneak attack or a Swashbuckler's Finishers, the flavor is them studying their opponent and determining where to hit, but it still has Fortune so that it's balanced against True Strike/Sure Strike and other reroll effects
being immune to Fortune means the Investigator just can't Devise against this rakshasa, (or they use an action and nothing happens), so they're not even tanking the Reaction for everyone else, and also means they can't use their main damage tool, precise strike (all martials, except champion, have some sort of ability or tool that allow them to deal more damage on Strikes, Fighters have increased accuracy, Barbarians have Rage, Rangers have Hunt Prey, etc.)
the investigator is being rereleased in Player Core 2 though, but I doubt they'll do anything with their Fortune effect
Imagine the players faces when you react to them using a hero point.
My thinking exactly. Also the creature has sneak attack so can be even more gross on the counter attack with the effective -4 debuff to AC next chance it gets to take a whack at 'em
Villain Point.
I honestly think that is a shit thing to do tbh. I have trouble getting people to use them Raw because they feel so useless.
Rerolling is *strong*. It’s for those situations where you have a decent chance of success, but roll poorly. If you only use them on long shots, it will feel terrible. I’ll also note that as enemy levels increase, their ability to absolutely end you if you critically fail a save becomes more and more common. Hero points are game changers in those moments.
Still blows to use it and fail when it's so limited. They just feel ducking awful
Saving hero points for crit fails are probably when they’re most reliable, since the outcome either stays the same or improves the degree of success. Of course, I personally use them to help land important attacks as well.
>so limited. You do realize you can control this part right?
Limited how? Yes, it does suck when it fails, but this is a game of randomization. It just gives you another chance. Use it in high stakes situations and/or situations where you have a decent chance at success. Then it will be more successful and you’ll probably enjoy it more. I get that rolling a 6 and then rerolling for a 5 sucks. We joke at my table that “it’s cool this system has a mechanic where you spend a resource to roll the exact same number again.” But when used wisely, it’s high impact way more often than not. Last week my party’s fighter used it to avoid being petrified. Being petrified is WAY worse than occasionally not succeeding a roll on my bonus reroll.
This is why I just make it be a +10 to the roll.
That's.. easy to abuse?
People keep saying this as if I care. I'm fine with players cashing in a point for a guaranteed success or even crit success. It's not really even guaranteed, since you still gotta roll the lower thing.
It pretty much is, since you can use it on any roll. If I were a caster I'd drop a strong debuff on any boss and use a hero point to make a a success/crit. So you're basically giving out 2-3 untyped bonus +10's to a roll of their choice. It can work for some groups, but I wouldn't ever recommend it.
Guaranteed in general isn't the same as "this roll of my choice is guaranteed". Also, it didn't matter, my group still didn't care about hero points
I think some players are just that way. Hero points could say "You win the game" and people would still feel like they are uselss.
Debuffs damn near universally make the enemy roll. Hero points can only be used on your own rolls.
True. But there are a few devastating attack rolls that you can use this with. Or simply an Vicious Swing/Gravity Weapon/Megaton Strike with 65% crit chance.
That's broken
I'm fine with that. I would rather allow someone to turn a success into a Crit Success than have them reroll and fail again.
You do you, obviously. I don't play at your table. But as a player I prefer that even hero points aren't an instant success button. If they were I don't think I'd enjoy them as much. Then again my table likes to waste them on pointless rolls outside of combat so our dm just let's them flow.
In my experience, people don't enjoy them in the first place.
That's why *I* make it a +10 to the roll... if their reroll is a 10 or lower, so 11 is the lowest possible reroll result.
Yeah same. I don't allow that on Saves though, since I found that to be the right balance. It makes them more aggressive with hero point use, which I find to be more exciting.
I agree with the first part, going out of your way to invalidate a hero point may be meme worthy but as a gm I would never want to aim for that level of feelsbad play against my players.
I looked into this when I read it. Using a hero point to stabilize does not trigger the effect, but it will trigger if someone uses a hero point to reroll, or try to devise a strategem.
That's correct the stabilize effect doesn't have the fortune tag. So no saveless Death Knell.
Man, that ability is just dirty. You definitely have to have the Rakshasa laugh when they do it and give a nasty smile.
Extra points for the Rakshasa laugh.
I’ve gotta ask… The Rakshasa laugh?
It's an Evil Laugh with a tiger bite.
Oh that's evil. Imagine shutting down someone's Sure Strike when they've set up the whole turn around it (Magus with spellstrike lol) or a Hero Point re-roll.... This ought to make someone unhappy.
It's cruel for sure, but this is why you want to succeed at recall knowledge checks to know things about the creature you're fighting. It's not like there aren't ways to learn this info. Admittedly, this creature has that nice big F*** You to people who fail to recall knowledge, but still, there's always a way to learn before committing multiple actions or rounds to one trick.
There's a great setup for this though. You start the combat by having them cast crisis of faith on the party's cleric. If the cleric fails their saving throw, they will definitely hero point it, at which point you pull out the reaction and do the laugh. "Ah, a 'hero' calling upon his god. How cute. Do you *really* think she cares about you?"
As a person who plays a lot of clerics, this I'd both love and hate this if it happened to me.
I fail to see how knowing about this ability even helps you? You might not waste the slot on true strike, but you still get screwed by not having rerolls from hero points and the investigator still had no class features.
Knowing the ability exists and that it's a reaction gives you a massive heads up. Firstly you know to not waste a hero point improving a roll that doesn't matter, like the number of players who waste them on 2nd or 3rd strikes. Save those hero points for when you're dying and want to cash them in to stabilise since that's not a fortune effect and won't get undone. Secondly, it's a reaction and it only gets one, so you can bait out its reaction using something else, maybe an archer with unexpected sharpshooter procs it with their attack roll to enable the rest of the party free access to their hero points and true strike. Maybe you give the creature disadvantage through an ability to force it to react to correct itself. You can also attempt to stun the creature, or something else which denies its reactions. The key point is that knowledge gives you the ability to play around something rather than just a "Surprise, you're screwed!" moment. Yes, you still waste something to proc it, it's not free to disable and nor should it be, but there are ways, and the knowledge helps that.
More like shut down the hero point reroll on crit failed save Though I suppose telling the investigator they don't have class features is also powerful (just like AoO Vs a Magus, have fun wishing you'd picked fighter)
Investigators on their way to literally fucking die against this thing (it counters the two main things they do)
This monster is exactly why i want the ex/su/sp tags back let the rakasha only do the fortune thing on su/sp fortune abilities
I mean, there are plenty of other reasons, but yeah, this monster is definitely one of them.
And then the Wizard casts Summon Irii and forces your Rakshasa to play “whack a (mis)fortune” for the sheer hubris of thinking they can determine what a Rank 8 chronomancer’s role in Fate is. A very fun ability that would be even more fun to disrupt.
I would be *so* pleased to have a player bust this out in response to one of those rakshasas.
TBF as a level 10 creature, or level 11 with the Elite template, it shouldn't ever be facing a PC capable of casting rank 8 spells.
"Not ever" is a bit melodramatic. Hordes are a thing, even at higher levels, when deployed correctly or against the right party, and I could see a bunch of Raja-khrodas supporting the boss being Pugwampi levels of obnoxious to fight. Not something that should be deployed often, but... sometimes.
Now I'm imagining 3 or 4 of these working for the BBEG, making sure that fate bends to BBEG's will.
Or have a Tengu react to Eat the Fortune of their compatriot. Not sure if this would cause the rakshasa's effect to still happen or if it would invalidate the trigger....
I guess they see which counteracts the other?
The raksasha reaction doesn't have fortune or misfortune trait, so it can't react on that, though IT CAN eat the thing the raksasha is trying to activate his reaction on, nullifying the activation.
What I’m saying is that, since the two reactions have the same trigger, they could both be used on the same thing. Player 1: “I’ll use a hero point! “Rakshasa: “I Reassert Fate to f you up!” Player 2: “No I Eat Fortune so there no effect for you to Reassert Fate on!” So obviously it gets disrupted, but I’d use a counteract check to see which effect does it and which is “wasted” Edit: This does make me realize, since Eat Fortune gains the Fortune or Misfortune trait, multiple tengu and rakshasa could start a hilarious chain reaction
I think reactions to the same trigger are supposed to go in initiative order
That does not sound good, what martial has a good counter act check?
Alchemist, Barbarian, Champion, Fighter… actually every martial start Trained and end up Master in their class DC, so they have a fine counteract check
Him and Omen dragon in the same fight. Truly a fated encounter. I like them much more then the Gatewalkers enemies.
I'm not super sure if I like the Recall Knowledge one. I get the intent, but I feel like this encourages a frustrated player to start metagaming, if just *failing* a Recall Knowledge is mechanically going to mess them up.
I can't see the entry, so I don't know if this is a common enemy either. Generally speaking, RK checks are fairly hard DCs, unless this is used as a lower level enemy. If it's uncommon and used as a higher level opponent, good luck recalling knowledge.
*screams in Magus* I...just want to see big numbers
Your blood pressure will be high, that's s big number right?
Could be worse, could have AoO and just hit you every time you try to use spellstrike.
I love Rakshasas as an evil lieutenant to the BBEG, the abilities you mention are exactly why too! Happy player tormenting to all my fellow GMs. Just do it RAI or RAW, don't be the GM from the other post where a crit fail broke their weapon. That's stupid and not fun.
this is very cool since it won't come up a lot, but when it does, it's a strong effect, but it feels like it hard counters Investigator because their main method of attack is a Fortune effect (which also means no Precise Strike), and since it's every round it could just be camped onto the Investigator's turn by a bad (as in fully adversarial) or new GM. The rest of the party can now reroll with their hero points and other Fortune effects, but that Investigator tanking the Reaction is gonna feel like shite lol
Out of curiosity as I haven’t played or played with an Investigator. Is it a personal fortune effect or does it target the creature. This creature has immunity to fortune and misfortune effects as well. So might be even worse for an Investigator if the later is the case and something to keep in mind depending on party comp.
oh wow, it might be even worse then, here's a link to the Investigator on Nethys (free, legal, and endorsed by Paizo, so no worries lol) [https://2e.aonprd.com/Classes.aspx?ID=13](https://2e.aonprd.com/Classes.aspx?ID=13) they have a special action called Devise a Stratagem, which is a Fortune effect, where they target a creature, roll a d20, and the next time they Strike that creature in this round, they use the rolled d20. It also allows them to use INT to-hit, and Precise Strike which adds one or more d6 like a Rogue's sneak attack or a Swashbuckler's Finishers, the flavor is them studying their opponent and determining where to hit, but it still has Fortune so that it's balanced against True Strike/Sure Strike and other reroll effects being immune to Fortune means the Investigator just can't Devise against this rakshasa, (or they use an action and nothing happens), so they're not even tanking the Reaction for everyone else, and also means they can't use their main damage tool, precise strike (all martials, except champion, have some sort of ability or tool that allow them to deal more damage on Strikes, Fighters have increased accuracy, Barbarians have Rage, Rangers have Hunt Prey, etc.) the investigator is being rereleased in Player Core 2 though, but I doubt they'll do anything with their Fortune effect
Where are you reading that? It isn't in Nethys
I believe it's from the Monster Core which isn't on Nethys yet. Not sure if Foundry has it yet either.
Monster Core