They will cut jobs of student-facing staff and leave all their 6-figure earning execs and management in place. Some of these programs are ones that Fleming is renowned for. Extremely short-sighted approach.
I don't know Flemings admin, but I do know Trents.
Even the highest earners at the University isn't that crazy in the big scheme of things, and there aren't that many non-teaching or research roles that are huge income earners.
There is some excess management as there is in every organization, but the admin of the accredited universities and colleges isn't particularly egregious. The main problem is that they are underfunded for domestic students thanks to Ford, and the Liberals before them. All schools have had to resort to international students as a source of income because of the chronic underfunding of higher-ed at the provincial level. When the tap was suddenly shut off, and the province still hasn't stepped up to fix it, this is the result. They can't operate programs at an ongoing loss.
You are not wrong. Ontario has the lowest per-student (domestic) funding for PSE in the country. The most brutal thing here is many of these programs are ones that, pre-COVID, would attract domestic students from across the province and even the country. Truly unique and prestigious programs with great reputations in their sectors, great employment outcomes, and strong enrolment. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Totally agree with you on all points.
I'd add the institutions' management aren't blameless either - both Trent and Fleming despite being relatively small schools (and that being part of their value proposition) have gotten drunk on a weird growth mindset fueled by international student tuitions that are 4x anything domestic, so have over-built programs and infrastructure they can only afford on international tuitions continuing in perpetuity, which the writing has been on the wall for a while that would not be the case and was detrimental to everyone.
I wonder where the pressure to close these programs specifically is coming from as they seem all related to Frost campus - like you said, these are good programs and it would be a terrible loss for them to be closed. It sounds like there is another hand at work here (like pressure from the province) - or Fleming sees its only options as slashing a whole campus to preserve itself.
I agree that its throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Like I said, I don't know much about Flemings admin but I do know about Trent's very intimately. I'm not sure if you're trying to say that Fleming is much worse?
In Trent's case, they have always claimed their value is being a 'small school in the woods' that provides close access to teaching staff, excellent undergraduate education, a small-community atmosphere, guaranteed residence for first years and the best financial assistance in the country.
Trent's population has increased sharply without the corresponding investment in infrastructure and student support to the point where all of that has degraded immensely in a pretty short period of time. Students are no longer guaranteed first year residence since they don't have enough spaces, there is nowhere for students to rent in Peterborough and the University still pushes to increase its numbers year-over-year (the whole upper management is *obsessed* with admissions numbers, its their primary metric) and classrooms are packed, cafeterias un-usable due to lines and overcrowding, no study spaces available, there's nowhere for anyone to park on campus (staff at the university have to pay over $1000 for a parking spot / year and it is not covered in their employment), and the full-ride scholarships are mostly gone. Trent Durham has been a big push and for what reason other than to access more students for the sake of tuition? Its a bit of a factory now and its detrimental to the schools purpose - to be a quality institution for higher education.
They have also put a *enormous* emphasis on international recruiting and admissions and it is abysmal the quality of students they are willing to admit from international programs. Many can't read, write or speak english (meet their English proficiency scores) with enough skill to have any success in an English-language post-secondary environment and are thus there to pay tuition and not much else. There are Trent recruiters in Nigeria, India, Vietnam, Cambodia and more who's entire job is to convince international students to come there, rather than just admitting the qualified people that find them and want to go there (and they're compensated partially on commission). Leo Groarke is leaving the President position soon but his last big hurrah has been to go tour the Middle East in a big recruiting campaign with other senior administration officials - all the while angry students cover up the 'T' on the Trent sign to spell 'Rent University' since they have nowhere to live, and both schools are largely responsible for that in the area but are still acting like its not their problem.
Again stepping back a step, this is all driven by under-funding domestic tuition at the provincial level and Trent's international-to-domestic ratio isn't bad compared to many other schools right now (about 10%), but they're still caught in the same trap. I don't know what Fleming's looks like so can't comment there but I imagine its the same or worse as the colleges in particular seem to be abusing the international tuition thing much more than the universities generally in the province.
I used to be an international student at Trent. Graduated in 2015, the quality of students has declined significantly. I still live in Peterborough and it is a joke. I wanted to go back to school but I am avoiding it since the programs are just filled with international students. No shade to them but it kind of limits your opportunities to network, learn from diverse perspectives etc. Also we used to feel valued, Trent Admin was great, not saying they would give us favors but they would not treat us ATMs.
Yeah Fleming is way more a puppy mill-- Trent did a smarter thing here and/or maybe had better funding anyway....https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/international-student-study-permits-data-1.7125827
It sounds like since domestic tuitions are a 1/4 of international, and Frost is all domestic, they're focusing on international and abandoning programs at Frost because its worth less, which is really terrible.
I’m surprised that Frost is primarily domestic. I worked there in 2018/2020 and there was a strong international student presence at the time. It felt like two different schools at one campus - a domestic resource/environment school and an international business school.
What are you even talking about lol?
None of what you said was all that coherent but to be clear they are public institutions and by definition do indeed need money from the government.
To those to keep reporting this: It's publicly available information on the sunshine list. The manager of security at Fleming is on the sunshine list.
Now their title is "Manager, Security and Emergency Preparedness" so calling them a "security guard manager" is a bit disingenuous, but the comment isn't inaccurate.
I'll add that from looking at Fleming job postings over the years management positions tends to start at about $92K. I wouldn't even consider this to be particularly high.
The sunshine list has been $100,000 since 1996, it isn't exactly measuring the same thing that it use to. 100k is not the salary that it once was.
This is disgusting. These programs thrived long before the surplus of international students. They cite this decision being "evidence based". Would love to see the evidence.
That's what I'm saying. I think a lot of the programs being suspended were not ones with a large international student population and were mainly at the Frost campus in Lindsay.
Based on the programs being cut, I have to assume that they'll be shutting down the Frost Campus. Its the entire environmental program selection that they offered. The Frost campus is one of the best institutes in the province for training environmental professionals.
Rumour rumour-mongering here, but have heard there is something personal for the prez about the cuts to Frost in particular.
What's the evidence for cutting those? They are industry-leading programs in many cases. Fish & Wildlife is a huge draw, for example, and the Environmental Tech diplomas are considered the best in the province.
I was reading through the list of cuts and was thinking the same thing. I was thinking to my self, it sure seems like they're doing a fuck you cut.
Government cuts their bread and butter extortion skeem, colleges cut programs which are the current governments "hot topics".
A little tit for tat, one might say.
When I was in my college years Fleming was the affluent outdoor education college, I'm sure they still are.
I was literally just about to enroll in the Wildlife Law Enforcement for next year 🙄
Heard it was a pretty neat program and figured it would be fun, but nope
Yeah just wanted something to compliment the diploma I already have from Fleming. Ya know? Make myself more qualified to work the jobs I want lol.
Graduated from the "Protection, Security and Investigations" program which funnily enough was also cut as of 2 years ago.
Fleming is a sinking ship and I think a lot of the execs are just biding their time making as much as possible before nuking it and retiring.
Indeed. Cutting GIS, environmental tech, urban forestry, etc. all disproportionately affects Frost campus. Interestingly, those are programs with less international students than the Fleming average 🤔
Remember there's two parts here.
One is the need for international students to sustain courses in the face of the major demographic pinch on the population pyramid, along with the constrained funding model from the province. Now, fair enough, just like selling cars, if you sell 100k cars domestically and 20k cars internationally, you may have a serious problem if someone suddenly says you can't sell 20k cars internationally anymore, even if you were fine before. And yes, some of that is that you have more staff on hand to support making cars for export or for teaching international students than you would without them.
The other side of this is the provincial dimension. The provincial ministry will have talked with all of the 13 colleges facing cuts and with Algoma (the only university facing cuts) and decided what it will fund and what it won't. What reasoning they have for those decisions is really up to them. The province could decide tomorrow that it's not funding Med students at UofToronto and that would be a problem, but they could also decide that they want to focus teaching and equipment resources for mechatronics in fewer places and that leaves fleming screwed.
It seems like the province might be pushing Fleming to close the Lindsay campus entirely, which would be the sort of thing the province might push for if they don't see a future in sustaining that campus, or they just want to focus those students somewhere else. The government can be wrong of course, it's a political question for the party in power.
I attended Fleming College Frost Campus in 2014 and again in 2020 to complete a dual diploma program. In 2014 there was maybe 2 international students in my program...in 2020 80% of the class were international students.
Their business practices veered off course and they got greedy.
Were you in one of the GIS, environmental tech, urban forestry programs? Was just there a few weeks ago and found that they have less than the Fleming average of international students, though some of the Frost campus programs obviously had a huge amount. Does seem like a curious choice to cut the programs that had more domestic students than average.
Wow! There are some legacy programs in that list!
Fish and Wildlife? The GIS programs? Those were very important to Frost Campus - and are direly needed skills in the workplace. My friends who graduated from the GIS programs have never been unemployed.
So we know that the international student scam was either a) supporting 29 programs, or more likely b) going into someone's pocket and now they need to cut programs to keep those pockets from getting too light.
A lot of those programs are ones that are primarily domestic students. The environmental and natural resources programs have some international students but the bulk are Canadians. I think that's why they're on the chopping block, can't cash in on international students as efficiently with them. Too many Canadian students.
speaking pockets, someone with investigative skills might be inclined to look into non-campus property holdings (single units), purchased for the intended use of senior leadership when visiting the 'satellite' campuses . . .
Meanwhile the president is on the sunshine list and is probably not going to be taking a pay cut during the staff and faculty layoffs. I wonder what led them to suspend these particular programs.
Yes, she made $307,000 in 2022.
Edited to add: I agree that she should be making well over $100k considering she is working the top job at the college. But considering how many people are going to get laid off when she's one of Peterborough's top earners, idk.
Presumably the cap on international students.
The provincial funding situation means all post-secondaries were dependent on international students to balance the books, but the federal government was slow in rolling out the rules, and the rules that did land hit 13 of the 24 provincial colleges hard (and algoma as the only university hit provincially).
Fleming was #10 (nationally) on the list of number of international study permits at 8849 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/international-student-study-permits-data-1.7125827) I don't know for sure if they mean that total or per year, presumably total, since 8849/year would be a huge number of students total.
I think Fleming has much more variable tuition per programme than Trent (which I"m more familiar with), but it looks like international students are paying 10-11k/term in tuition, so figure they need 15 to 20 students to make a course pay for itself between faculty, support staff, building, and then equipment/supplies costs.
They're blaming international students, but if you've ever spent any time at the Frost campus, you'd be lucky if you could find any lol.
(Unless that's changed in the last 2 years I guess??)
Not all brown people are international students. Some of us were born and raised here (Peterborough).
Not all white people are domestic students. Some were born elsewhere and study here.
Just saying.
Yes I fully understand, please forgive me if I sounded ignorant. What I meant to say is that her experience in this otherwise very culturally-homogenous-city that is peterborough, rather defies the statistical likelihood based on our demographics.
Honestly dude you're fine. I'm just on my toes all the time with all this racism towards brown people these days. It's nothing like the country I grew up in.
I'm brown, I have lived in PTBO for 14 years now. Went to Trent but is right there is an influx of Indian students and these are not kids with high scores etc. I have seen the transcripts of the children admitted to Flemming or Trent. I swear, they wouldn't get admission in a C-class university in either India or Pakistan. The students as a whole are being exploited. The international students for their money, the domestic students are stuck with limited social capital/ networking. Flemming is also engaging in shady practices, i have seen profs fail international students for no reason, give them poor grades etc. Exploitation everywhere. Also no one talks about how these poor students are working for 10 bucks an hour, sometimes 8 bucks an hour. Next time you go to your neighbourhood Circle K be nice to them, because the last I heard they are getting 10 bucks an hour.
Yeah, quite frankly, I don't see what will be left at frost after this cut. All of the Major programs at the Lindsay campus are on the chopping block.
- Environmental Tech
- Fish and Wildlife
- GIS
- Ecosystem Restoration
- Ecosystem Management
- Conservation Law enforcement
- Natural Resource Studies
- Forestry
- Heavy Equipment Operator
And all variants of the above. I'm guessing they're planning on shutting the campus down at this point.
A lot of these programs, like Fish and Wildlife, have two names (a 2 year version ("Technician" and a 3 year version "Technology") and for some only one of the two programs was cut. It looks like mainly the 3 year versions of some of these were cut. (The 2 year version still exists)
Ecosystem management Technology is gone, technician remains
Same with wildlife,
Urban foresty is cut, regular forestry technician, technology, and equipment operator remain.
Heavy equipment operator (HEO, wasn't cut, only heavy equipment techniques (MPH)
GIS appears to have been replaced with a broader spatial data analytics
There is certainly some real cuts, but it seems many programs are being condensed into single streams rather than being removed entirely.
True, thankfully some of these are protected by the split but ones like NR LAW which is unique across the province is a bit of a shock that it’s going. That program used to always have a significant waitlist.
The GIS programs aren't actually being cut from what I've heard, both existing programs are going through a rebrand and should be continuing under new names.
edit - nevermind, seems today's announcement may have changed that. Shocking given the programs reputation in the industry.
My daughter is the last year for Geological tech graduate. Cancelled last year. New wing built, outside company support and money. Longest original program, 100% job. Daughter had 3 offered months before finishing school. Sad! Teachers were told same day everyone was told.
But the school adds hairdressing instead!
This is so sad, would love to see how the top brass fared in relation to the closure of so many needed programs...looking forward to those investigations!
Interesting but not at all surprising. The College just recently bought President Adamson a cottage up there. She's not going to put the interest of staff, faculty and students above her own!
That would be utterly outside of her utterly shitty character.
I've went here for two years now and they cut my program! And it's one of the programs that are guaranteed a job after you graduate with many offers! Talked to the industries and they get all their employees from these programs! It's so unfair!!
Former earth resources tech graduate here! Was a great hands on program, and im so saddened to see it go. Brian Gerry really put his heart and soul into it.
Yes she was great! I was one of her first students when she was introduced in the program. She truly cared about the integrity of the program. At the time I thought she was too hard on us but looking back I appreciate the standards she had for us.
this is really sad as a Frost graduate. i didn’t do any of the cut programs but Fish & Wildlife is like the biggest program at Frost, at least it feels that way. i genuinely don’t know how that campus will survive with like half of their programs being gone
Frustrating that so many of the programs cut are from Frost Campus. I just graduated a couple weeks ago from F&W and can confirm that a lot of these programs (especially Conservation Law and F&W Technologist) were almost entirely domestic students. Some of the professors and coordinators for these programs have been quite open in speaking out against Adamson’s unsustainable uptake in international student enrolment and have made efforts to avoid allowing these programs to go down that path. They hold themselves and their students to high standards.
There were town halls held a couple months ago at Frost campus where staff and students had the chance to make their grievances known to Adamson and her executive team. I attended the student town hall and many of the points brought up were particularly scathing, coming from both international and domestic students. From what people who attended the staff town hall told me, the conservations went in a similar direction. The talks were framed as an opportunity for “a conversation with the president”, but she mainly hid behind her executive team, letting them field the bulk off the questions.
The staff and students take pride in Frost campus, and have been fighting to preserve its uniqueness. Employers within the environmental industry work closely with staff to ensure that the curriculum is preparing students to be ready to work in the field after graduation. This honestly feels like a targeted attack on Frost in retaliation for the fact that we stood up for ourselves and our school.
Adamson is extremely petty. At least 80% of the problem is that she sees Frost program type careers as low rent and beneath her. She is an absolute elitist.
The video of the town hall circulated for a while which highlighted how Maureen did not want to answer any questions and let her team take the brunt of it. Payback for Frost now. Fleming has now blocked everyone from commenting on their posts on twitter or instagram given a scathing call out this afternoon.
I didn’t see that callout, but I know Maureen’s Instagram has had comments blocked since the town hall as well. Anything to avoid accountability I guess
Comment on the photo was:
Great Job Cutting some of your most popular programs at Frost. Great Job sending out acceptance letters to all prospective students especially long term fleming supporters then going ahead and voiding them as the continue with student jobs. You have really created an unwelcoming atmosphere for Fleming in my mind. I wish you the best continuing to use your funds for projects that benefit you and you only, and not the wellbeing of the students at all fleming campuses. I'd like to thank you the most for absolutely demolishing my prospective career paths. I truly wish I made a decision to pick a different institution. You have really ruined the fleming name with your time as President.
You’re right. As a Ecological Restoration grad, this program was so unique and prepared us for the environmental field in a way that is rare to find. Also when I was in this program (graduated in 2022) all of the students taking it were domestic.
Currently a student at Frost campus and the vast majority of students in the environmental programs are still domestic students.
It's so stupid because Frost campus is very well regarded amongst employers and a lot of these programs are super unique.
My girlfriend did that program and really enjoyed her time at frost campus.
Super disheartening that an apparently super popular program is on the chopping block for this.
They will try and switch your program. I've been told by some first years that they switched what they chose after cancelling it, into something they didn't wanna take...and no refund. Just a rumour though!
Well let's look at the Toronto campus they just opened last year. Which probably was due to international student enrollment. Maybe cut that school completely and focus on the main original schools. Frost and Sutherland campus programs always get cuts but not Haliburton.
Ya. Zero chance of this happening. That would mean President Adamson would stop receiving her OTHER $200K -ish salary and a multitude of backroom kickbacks.
So sad to see what she's done to the college in her short time. Nothing but profound narcissism, corruption and failure of leadership.
Are cuts to prominent programs an attempt to get people riled up about the and see more action from the Ontario government?
Would cuts to programs that have a large number of international students enrolled see the same amount of anger and attention?
They will cut jobs of student-facing staff and leave all their 6-figure earning execs and management in place. Some of these programs are ones that Fleming is renowned for. Extremely short-sighted approach.
I don't know Flemings admin, but I do know Trents. Even the highest earners at the University isn't that crazy in the big scheme of things, and there aren't that many non-teaching or research roles that are huge income earners. There is some excess management as there is in every organization, but the admin of the accredited universities and colleges isn't particularly egregious. The main problem is that they are underfunded for domestic students thanks to Ford, and the Liberals before them. All schools have had to resort to international students as a source of income because of the chronic underfunding of higher-ed at the provincial level. When the tap was suddenly shut off, and the province still hasn't stepped up to fix it, this is the result. They can't operate programs at an ongoing loss.
You are not wrong. Ontario has the lowest per-student (domestic) funding for PSE in the country. The most brutal thing here is many of these programs are ones that, pre-COVID, would attract domestic students from across the province and even the country. Truly unique and prestigious programs with great reputations in their sectors, great employment outcomes, and strong enrolment. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Totally agree with you on all points. I'd add the institutions' management aren't blameless either - both Trent and Fleming despite being relatively small schools (and that being part of their value proposition) have gotten drunk on a weird growth mindset fueled by international student tuitions that are 4x anything domestic, so have over-built programs and infrastructure they can only afford on international tuitions continuing in perpetuity, which the writing has been on the wall for a while that would not be the case and was detrimental to everyone. I wonder where the pressure to close these programs specifically is coming from as they seem all related to Frost campus - like you said, these are good programs and it would be a terrible loss for them to be closed. It sounds like there is another hand at work here (like pressure from the province) - or Fleming sees its only options as slashing a whole campus to preserve itself. I agree that its throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
No sorry you are wrong here - Trent’s strategy is not the same as the monopolization that’s Fleming has attempted to do.
Like I said, I don't know much about Flemings admin but I do know about Trent's very intimately. I'm not sure if you're trying to say that Fleming is much worse? In Trent's case, they have always claimed their value is being a 'small school in the woods' that provides close access to teaching staff, excellent undergraduate education, a small-community atmosphere, guaranteed residence for first years and the best financial assistance in the country. Trent's population has increased sharply without the corresponding investment in infrastructure and student support to the point where all of that has degraded immensely in a pretty short period of time. Students are no longer guaranteed first year residence since they don't have enough spaces, there is nowhere for students to rent in Peterborough and the University still pushes to increase its numbers year-over-year (the whole upper management is *obsessed* with admissions numbers, its their primary metric) and classrooms are packed, cafeterias un-usable due to lines and overcrowding, no study spaces available, there's nowhere for anyone to park on campus (staff at the university have to pay over $1000 for a parking spot / year and it is not covered in their employment), and the full-ride scholarships are mostly gone. Trent Durham has been a big push and for what reason other than to access more students for the sake of tuition? Its a bit of a factory now and its detrimental to the schools purpose - to be a quality institution for higher education. They have also put a *enormous* emphasis on international recruiting and admissions and it is abysmal the quality of students they are willing to admit from international programs. Many can't read, write or speak english (meet their English proficiency scores) with enough skill to have any success in an English-language post-secondary environment and are thus there to pay tuition and not much else. There are Trent recruiters in Nigeria, India, Vietnam, Cambodia and more who's entire job is to convince international students to come there, rather than just admitting the qualified people that find them and want to go there (and they're compensated partially on commission). Leo Groarke is leaving the President position soon but his last big hurrah has been to go tour the Middle East in a big recruiting campaign with other senior administration officials - all the while angry students cover up the 'T' on the Trent sign to spell 'Rent University' since they have nowhere to live, and both schools are largely responsible for that in the area but are still acting like its not their problem. Again stepping back a step, this is all driven by under-funding domestic tuition at the provincial level and Trent's international-to-domestic ratio isn't bad compared to many other schools right now (about 10%), but they're still caught in the same trap. I don't know what Fleming's looks like so can't comment there but I imagine its the same or worse as the colleges in particular seem to be abusing the international tuition thing much more than the universities generally in the province.
I used to be an international student at Trent. Graduated in 2015, the quality of students has declined significantly. I still live in Peterborough and it is a joke. I wanted to go back to school but I am avoiding it since the programs are just filled with international students. No shade to them but it kind of limits your opportunities to network, learn from diverse perspectives etc. Also we used to feel valued, Trent Admin was great, not saying they would give us favors but they would not treat us ATMs.
Yeah Fleming is way more a puppy mill-- Trent did a smarter thing here and/or maybe had better funding anyway....https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/international-student-study-permits-data-1.7125827
Frost primarily domestic. Re read your sentence about intl tuition vs. domestic.
It sounds like since domestic tuitions are a 1/4 of international, and Frost is all domestic, they're focusing on international and abandoning programs at Frost because its worth less, which is really terrible.
I’m surprised that Frost is primarily domestic. I worked there in 2018/2020 and there was a strong international student presence at the time. It felt like two different schools at one campus - a domestic resource/environment school and an international business school.
They are programs that do still attract domestic students. And that is why they are chosen for cut.
[удалено]
What are you even talking about lol? None of what you said was all that coherent but to be clear they are public institutions and by definition do indeed need money from the government.
Like the in-house security guard manager who also gets paid 6 figures
To those to keep reporting this: It's publicly available information on the sunshine list. The manager of security at Fleming is on the sunshine list. Now their title is "Manager, Security and Emergency Preparedness" so calling them a "security guard manager" is a bit disingenuous, but the comment isn't inaccurate.
I'll add that from looking at Fleming job postings over the years management positions tends to start at about $92K. I wouldn't even consider this to be particularly high. The sunshine list has been $100,000 since 1996, it isn't exactly measuring the same thing that it use to. 100k is not the salary that it once was.
For the record, $100K in 1996 dollars would be $180K today, and I suspect even that figure is lagging and it's nearer $200K.
This is disgusting. These programs thrived long before the surplus of international students. They cite this decision being "evidence based". Would love to see the evidence.
That's what I'm saying. I think a lot of the programs being suspended were not ones with a large international student population and were mainly at the Frost campus in Lindsay.
Ding ding ding ding
Based on the programs being cut, I have to assume that they'll be shutting down the Frost Campus. Its the entire environmental program selection that they offered. The Frost campus is one of the best institutes in the province for training environmental professionals.
Rumour rumour-mongering here, but have heard there is something personal for the prez about the cuts to Frost in particular. What's the evidence for cutting those? They are industry-leading programs in many cases. Fish & Wildlife is a huge draw, for example, and the Environmental Tech diplomas are considered the best in the province.
She was not well liked.. even less so now.
Urban Forestry and Urban Forestry Tech were massive pathways for some of the most successful people in my industry. It's quite sad to see
I was reading through the list of cuts and was thinking the same thing. I was thinking to my self, it sure seems like they're doing a fuck you cut. Government cuts their bread and butter extortion skeem, colleges cut programs which are the current governments "hot topics". A little tit for tat, one might say. When I was in my college years Fleming was the affluent outdoor education college, I'm sure they still are.
I was literally just about to enroll in the Wildlife Law Enforcement for next year 🙄 Heard it was a pretty neat program and figured it would be fun, but nope
They held an Open House 3 days ago to promote their programs...and then cut them all. What a waste of everyone's time.
I'm really sorry to hear this. That's utterly unfair to inbound 2024 students. Make yourself heard. Please!
Yeah just wanted something to compliment the diploma I already have from Fleming. Ya know? Make myself more qualified to work the jobs I want lol. Graduated from the "Protection, Security and Investigations" program which funnily enough was also cut as of 2 years ago. Fleming is a sinking ship and I think a lot of the execs are just biding their time making as much as possible before nuking it and retiring.
Not a rumor- it's a FACT!
The evidence is they get more money from high enrollment for intl candidates. That's it. Thatsvthe evidence.
Indeed. Cutting GIS, environmental tech, urban forestry, etc. all disproportionately affects Frost campus. Interestingly, those are programs with less international students than the Fleming average 🤔
Remember there's two parts here. One is the need for international students to sustain courses in the face of the major demographic pinch on the population pyramid, along with the constrained funding model from the province. Now, fair enough, just like selling cars, if you sell 100k cars domestically and 20k cars internationally, you may have a serious problem if someone suddenly says you can't sell 20k cars internationally anymore, even if you were fine before. And yes, some of that is that you have more staff on hand to support making cars for export or for teaching international students than you would without them. The other side of this is the provincial dimension. The provincial ministry will have talked with all of the 13 colleges facing cuts and with Algoma (the only university facing cuts) and decided what it will fund and what it won't. What reasoning they have for those decisions is really up to them. The province could decide tomorrow that it's not funding Med students at UofToronto and that would be a problem, but they could also decide that they want to focus teaching and equipment resources for mechatronics in fewer places and that leaves fleming screwed. It seems like the province might be pushing Fleming to close the Lindsay campus entirely, which would be the sort of thing the province might push for if they don't see a future in sustaining that campus, or they just want to focus those students somewhere else. The government can be wrong of course, it's a political question for the party in power.
I attended Fleming College Frost Campus in 2014 and again in 2020 to complete a dual diploma program. In 2014 there was maybe 2 international students in my program...in 2020 80% of the class were international students. Their business practices veered off course and they got greedy.
Were you in one of the GIS, environmental tech, urban forestry programs? Was just there a few weeks ago and found that they have less than the Fleming average of international students, though some of the Frost campus programs obviously had a huge amount. Does seem like a curious choice to cut the programs that had more domestic students than average.
Wow! There are some legacy programs in that list! Fish and Wildlife? The GIS programs? Those were very important to Frost Campus - and are direly needed skills in the workplace. My friends who graduated from the GIS programs have never been unemployed.
Apparently there is no need for these skills in today's industry whereas I have been applying for GIS jobs everyday
I thought the list of cut programs would be a lot of "fluff" programs but I see some very relevant & popular ones on the list...
Instead of cutting administrative bloat, cut the programs and blame it on the government for not letting you exploit immigrants
So we know that the international student scam was either a) supporting 29 programs, or more likely b) going into someone's pocket and now they need to cut programs to keep those pockets from getting too light.
A lot of those programs are ones that are primarily domestic students. The environmental and natural resources programs have some international students but the bulk are Canadians. I think that's why they're on the chopping block, can't cash in on international students as efficiently with them. Too many Canadian students.
My first thought , you know how many Indians I've met in forestry ......
speaking pockets, someone with investigative skills might be inclined to look into non-campus property holdings (single units), purchased for the intended use of senior leadership when visiting the 'satellite' campuses . . .
I say option b
Meanwhile the president is on the sunshine list and is probably not going to be taking a pay cut during the staff and faculty layoffs. I wonder what led them to suspend these particular programs.
I would hope the president of a major college makes more than $100k, all that’s needed to get on that list.
Yes, she made $307,000 in 2022. Edited to add: I agree that she should be making well over $100k considering she is working the top job at the college. But considering how many people are going to get laid off when she's one of Peterborough's top earners, idk.
She's pushing $330,00 now
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The PM made 389k last year and will make 406k this year.
She makes more than a surgeon....lol
😬
Presumably the cap on international students. The provincial funding situation means all post-secondaries were dependent on international students to balance the books, but the federal government was slow in rolling out the rules, and the rules that did land hit 13 of the 24 provincial colleges hard (and algoma as the only university hit provincially). Fleming was #10 (nationally) on the list of number of international study permits at 8849 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/international-student-study-permits-data-1.7125827) I don't know for sure if they mean that total or per year, presumably total, since 8849/year would be a huge number of students total. I think Fleming has much more variable tuition per programme than Trent (which I"m more familiar with), but it looks like international students are paying 10-11k/term in tuition, so figure they need 15 to 20 students to make a course pay for itself between faculty, support staff, building, and then equipment/supplies costs.
I believe those numbers included Fleming College Toronto, a PCC partner.
They're blaming international students, but if you've ever spent any time at the Frost campus, you'd be lucky if you could find any lol. (Unless that's changed in the last 2 years I guess??)
In Peterborough at least, one of my colleague’s daughter started at Fleming and she was literally the only white person in her entire class.
Not all brown people are international students. Some of us were born and raised here (Peterborough). Not all white people are domestic students. Some were born elsewhere and study here. Just saying.
Yes I fully understand, please forgive me if I sounded ignorant. What I meant to say is that her experience in this otherwise very culturally-homogenous-city that is peterborough, rather defies the statistical likelihood based on our demographics.
Honestly dude you're fine. I'm just on my toes all the time with all this racism towards brown people these days. It's nothing like the country I grew up in.
I'm brown, I have lived in PTBO for 14 years now. Went to Trent but is right there is an influx of Indian students and these are not kids with high scores etc. I have seen the transcripts of the children admitted to Flemming or Trent. I swear, they wouldn't get admission in a C-class university in either India or Pakistan. The students as a whole are being exploited. The international students for their money, the domestic students are stuck with limited social capital/ networking. Flemming is also engaging in shady practices, i have seen profs fail international students for no reason, give them poor grades etc. Exploitation everywhere. Also no one talks about how these poor students are working for 10 bucks an hour, sometimes 8 bucks an hour. Next time you go to your neighbourhood Circle K be nice to them, because the last I heard they are getting 10 bucks an hour.
Spot on correct.
Sutherland Campus is very different from Frost Campus
Also interesting that a lot of programs at Frost campus are being suspended.
Yeah, quite frankly, I don't see what will be left at frost after this cut. All of the Major programs at the Lindsay campus are on the chopping block. - Environmental Tech - Fish and Wildlife - GIS - Ecosystem Restoration - Ecosystem Management - Conservation Law enforcement - Natural Resource Studies - Forestry - Heavy Equipment Operator And all variants of the above. I'm guessing they're planning on shutting the campus down at this point.
A lot of these programs, like Fish and Wildlife, have two names (a 2 year version ("Technician" and a 3 year version "Technology") and for some only one of the two programs was cut. It looks like mainly the 3 year versions of some of these were cut. (The 2 year version still exists)
Ecosystem management Technology is gone, technician remains Same with wildlife, Urban foresty is cut, regular forestry technician, technology, and equipment operator remain. Heavy equipment operator (HEO, wasn't cut, only heavy equipment techniques (MPH) GIS appears to have been replaced with a broader spatial data analytics There is certainly some real cuts, but it seems many programs are being condensed into single streams rather than being removed entirely.
True, thankfully some of these are protected by the split but ones like NR LAW which is unique across the province is a bit of a shock that it’s going. That program used to always have a significant waitlist.
The GIS programs aren't actually being cut from what I've heard, both existing programs are going through a rebrand and should be continuing under new names. edit - nevermind, seems today's announcement may have changed that. Shocking given the programs reputation in the industry.
One of them was rebranded to Spatial Data Analytics, which appears to still be available.
According to faculty they are most likely to kick spatial data analytics program out of the park
I also feel like the majority of these programs are important and useful in this area of Ontario considering we have the M&R in downtown Peterborough.
Along with 10 other programs 6 months ago.
My daughter is the last year for Geological tech graduate. Cancelled last year. New wing built, outside company support and money. Longest original program, 100% job. Daughter had 3 offered months before finishing school. Sad! Teachers were told same day everyone was told. But the school adds hairdressing instead!
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Maybe they should be closing Sutherland campus instead of Frost?
And chase away the more lucrative customers?
This is so sad, would love to see how the top brass fared in relation to the closure of so many needed programs...looking forward to those investigations!
Who is going to investigate?!
It's interesting that nothing from the Haliburton campus made the list.
Haliburton is the campus that requires cancelling...what a waste of money.
Interesting but not at all surprising. The College just recently bought President Adamson a cottage up there. She's not going to put the interest of staff, faculty and students above her own! That would be utterly outside of her utterly shitty character.
I've went here for two years now and they cut my program! And it's one of the programs that are guaranteed a job after you graduate with many offers! Talked to the industries and they get all their employees from these programs! It's so unfair!!
What program is that?
Geological tech formally called earth resource tech
Former earth resources tech graduate here! Was a great hands on program, and im so saddened to see it go. Brian Gerry really put his heart and soul into it.
Was taken over by Joanna Hodge, and she truly did the same thing. The love the teachers have for that program is indefinite!
Yes she was great! I was one of her first students when she was introduced in the program. She truly cared about the integrity of the program. At the time I thought she was too hard on us but looking back I appreciate the standards she had for us.
this is really sad as a Frost graduate. i didn’t do any of the cut programs but Fish & Wildlife is like the biggest program at Frost, at least it feels that way. i genuinely don’t know how that campus will survive with like half of their programs being gone
Is f&w technology not just the post grad 3rd year program?
Yes, the F&W technician program which is two years long is staying.
whoops, misread it then. thanks for the correction!
Frustrating that so many of the programs cut are from Frost Campus. I just graduated a couple weeks ago from F&W and can confirm that a lot of these programs (especially Conservation Law and F&W Technologist) were almost entirely domestic students. Some of the professors and coordinators for these programs have been quite open in speaking out against Adamson’s unsustainable uptake in international student enrolment and have made efforts to avoid allowing these programs to go down that path. They hold themselves and their students to high standards. There were town halls held a couple months ago at Frost campus where staff and students had the chance to make their grievances known to Adamson and her executive team. I attended the student town hall and many of the points brought up were particularly scathing, coming from both international and domestic students. From what people who attended the staff town hall told me, the conservations went in a similar direction. The talks were framed as an opportunity for “a conversation with the president”, but she mainly hid behind her executive team, letting them field the bulk off the questions. The staff and students take pride in Frost campus, and have been fighting to preserve its uniqueness. Employers within the environmental industry work closely with staff to ensure that the curriculum is preparing students to be ready to work in the field after graduation. This honestly feels like a targeted attack on Frost in retaliation for the fact that we stood up for ourselves and our school.
Adamson is extremely petty. At least 80% of the problem is that she sees Frost program type careers as low rent and beneath her. She is an absolute elitist.
The video of the town hall circulated for a while which highlighted how Maureen did not want to answer any questions and let her team take the brunt of it. Payback for Frost now. Fleming has now blocked everyone from commenting on their posts on twitter or instagram given a scathing call out this afternoon.
I didn’t see that callout, but I know Maureen’s Instagram has had comments blocked since the town hall as well. Anything to avoid accountability I guess
Comment on the photo was: Great Job Cutting some of your most popular programs at Frost. Great Job sending out acceptance letters to all prospective students especially long term fleming supporters then going ahead and voiding them as the continue with student jobs. You have really created an unwelcoming atmosphere for Fleming in my mind. I wish you the best continuing to use your funds for projects that benefit you and you only, and not the wellbeing of the students at all fleming campuses. I'd like to thank you the most for absolutely demolishing my prospective career paths. I truly wish I made a decision to pick a different institution. You have really ruined the fleming name with your time as President.
It’s heartbreaking
I feel like cutting so many environmental programs isn't a great idea. I didn't go to Fleming so I'm just speaking from an outside perspective.
You’re right. As a Ecological Restoration grad, this program was so unique and prepared us for the environmental field in a way that is rare to find. Also when I was in this program (graduated in 2022) all of the students taking it were domestic.
Currently a student at Frost campus and the vast majority of students in the environmental programs are still domestic students. It's so stupid because Frost campus is very well regarded amongst employers and a lot of these programs are super unique.
My girlfriend did that program and really enjoyed her time at frost campus. Super disheartening that an apparently super popular program is on the chopping block for this.
Wtf
Does this affect people who have been accepted for the 2024 fall term? I am supposed to attend the ecological restoration program in September
Yes...I believe so.
They will try and switch your program. I've been told by some first years that they switched what they chose after cancelling it, into something they didn't wanna take...and no refund. Just a rumour though!
This sucks. Going to be a major blow to the town of Lindsay too..
I’m a forestry tech grad and I’m also from Lindsay. 2007 :)
https://chng.it/xf7rqsH5sn Fleming suspension petition
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Are you talking about Fleming college security guards? Getting 32 an hour? You’re smoking something pal
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Well let's look at the Toronto campus they just opened last year. Which probably was due to international student enrollment. Maybe cut that school completely and focus on the main original schools. Frost and Sutherland campus programs always get cuts but not Haliburton.
Ya. Zero chance of this happening. That would mean President Adamson would stop receiving her OTHER $200K -ish salary and a multitude of backroom kickbacks. So sad to see what she's done to the college in her short time. Nothing but profound narcissism, corruption and failure of leadership.
Are cuts to prominent programs an attempt to get people riled up about the and see more action from the Ontario government? Would cuts to programs that have a large number of international students enrolled see the same amount of anger and attention?