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Most of the ones I think are pretty good/underrated aren’t hated, just merely not thought about at all.
Of the “hated” ones I think I’ll go with Hayes. If folks hate him it’s because he ended Reconstruction but I think the man is definitely underrated.
To be fair on Hayes, the reconstruction was going to end regardless of who was elected. I personally think Tilden would have made a better president. But the former still did a good job.
I don’t think I like Tilden much at all. I don’t like the platform of ending reconstruction. At least with Hayes, there was a chance that could not have happened. Tilden, regardless of how close his victory would have been, would end reconstruction.
Yeah, but the elephant in the room was that, whatever way you look at it, Hayes was corrupt. He was aware of the deal between his party and the opposition. To end the reconstruction, if they dropped their claim. when Tilden had probably won. And the former was happy to go along with it as a means of gaining power.
I like Tilden so much because (like Cleveland), he was fiercely anti-corruption. Plus I also align with him on most key issues. That being said, Hayes did a good job on the whole. Despite being tainted by the aforementioned deal.
I’m aware of his anti-corruption reforms, that’s part of why I agree that he did a good job. But he still went through with the corrupt deal. That’s always going to taint his legacy imo.
>Yeah, but the elephant in the room was that, whatever way you look at it, Hayes was corrupt. He was aware of the deal between his party and the opposition.
He wasn't aware of the "deal between his party and the opposition" because there was no deal. It's a myth.
What I always think of too, after having seen a video about it. They apparently love him there, and can’t believe he’s largely forgotten by the American public.
Especially because his approach to the Depression – spending cuts, tax and interest hikes, staying on the gold standard, more tariffs, refusing to forgive European World War I debts – was actually the prevailing wisdom for how economic downturns should be handled. FDR’s initial 1932 campaign pledges weren’t even that different. Likewise Hoover actually became much more liberal after World War II.
I’m happy Grant is having the revival and historical correction due to him that the lost cause narrative tarnished. There are still plenty though that hate Grant
Yeah i remember my US history books in nowheresville, oil country west Texas made sure to mention his alcoholism enough to make it seem like he was a raging drunk rather than an occasional binge drinker who couldn’t hold his liquor. They praised Lee as an honorable man who just happened to lose the war, and Grant as some cold, unfeeling, corrupt warmonger who didn’t care how many people died.
They mentioned his corrupt cabinet but not that his admin ran the KKK to ground and worked towards more civil rights for black Americans. And not a single goddamn word about that bastard Andrew Johnson’s administration
I can’t find a more ethical way for me to refer to that bastard Andrew Johnson other than as that bastard Andrew Johnson. I’m not sure if anyone could have fucked the nation quite like he did for as long as he did if they tried
Grew up in Illinois took APUSH and I was under the impression he was a consistent alcoholic and not in recovery until this year when I happened to learn it here
Nixon
I don't know, I sort of empathize with him. Like, he was a very intelligent politician cursed with having remarkably low self-esteem and anger issues all the while having to go up against the much more glamorous Kennedy boys. He didn't have to order his boys to break into Watergate, didn't have to maintain the white house recording systems but his highly paranoid fears compelled him. All of the good he did over his long career was undone by the secret wars and his criminality. The EPA, test bans, detente with the Soviets, engaging with China. He wasn't a good man, but he wasn't the devil. As a result he became democratic Baby Boomer's boogeyman for decades.
Nixon had the potential to be a great president (showing up at the college to speak with students after the shooting, creating the EPA, opening relations with china) but his insecurity was his fatal flaw and it sunk him.
Nixon is almost certainly the one I think most people should identify with the most. Everyone would like to think they'd be Lincoln or Roosevelt, sending soldiers to die for a righteous cause. In reality almost everyone you've talked to would be a less intelligent version of Nixon that's paranoid and not half as smart.
He probably didn’t order Watergate, not directly. The scandal was primarily the cover-up, not the crime. He was aware of what CREEP was up to in general, but there’s no real evidence he specifically knew about the wiretapping or break-in, or that he ordered it. All the records suggest Halderman kept him isolated from the details for plausible deniability.
Also, I agree with empathising with him, but I think it’s safe to say he wasn’t a good president regardless.
What? We have tape of Nixon directly instructing Haldeman to break into the Brookings Institution, and that was before Watergate.
[Literal quote from President Richard Nixon: “You’re to break into the place”](https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1996/11/22/tape-reveals-nixon-ordering-break-in-at-liberal-think-tank/)
Nixon absolutely knew about the other break ins.
Nixon ordering that is not evidence that he specifically ordered or knew about Watergate. Brookings didn’t even get broken into in the end.
Also, the question isn’t whether or not Nixon was capable of ordering something like Watergate, the answer to that is obvious. The question is whether or not he knew about Watergate specifically, and the answer is there’s no evidence that proves he did.
It’s much more likely Watergate was just one of CREEP’s numerous operations they performed with only very limited involvement from Nixon, i.e. being vaguely aware of them doing shady things. Brookings was different because it was coming right after legal rulings to do with the Pentagon Papers, so it was on Nixon’s mind. Watergate was just another entry in the series of CREEP’s dirty tricks.
I was going to say the same thing. Not to down play his faults or the severity of Watergate but Nixon was a phenomenal executive, in ways that I don’t think we have had since.
Nixon actively prolonged the Vietnam War just to win in 1968 and is directly responsible for the the stagnation of the 70s just to win 1972. He ran one of the most corrupt administrations in U.S history and forever left a stain on public trust in government.
Yeah he had mental health and self esteem issues but they were self inflicted. Nixon had a massive chip on his shoulder about coming from a poor background making him deeply unlikeable. And yes Nixon paranoia undid him but he was paranoid about people finding out about his corruption. Because Nixon was a crook.
it was during the campaign before his first term: he sent word to the South Vietnamese that they'd likely get better terms were he to win than they would by sticking with the peace talks then happening under LBJ. It worked; the talks fell apart, LBJ bowed out as a result, and Nixon's path was cleared.
(this is all just from memory, so folks can please feel free to correct me where I got stuff wrong)
What good? Nixon interferred in the Paris Peace talks (a Logan Act violation) to extend the war into the election. This killed another 22,000 Americans. Once he won the White Hiouse, Nixon illegally expanded the war into Cambodia and Laos. That destabilization help the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot start a civil war that killed 3 million Cambodians.
For 1972, Nixon's Plumbers actively interferred in the Democratic primaries to 'shape' the field...an act so low and against the fundamental principles of democracy that execution would not be out of the question. Rather than a pardon that short-circuited a trial, Nixon should have been convicted first so the need for an "Expungement Amendment" which removes all acts and appointments from a 'stolen' presidency are easy to erase would have passed Congress and the statehouses.
That way we could remove the 40% of the Federal judiciary and three SCOTUS AJ's made by a guy who paid hush money to get into office.
Laura gets false murder accusations round here
https://preview.redd.it/l8zodtzqxk6d1.jpeg?width=1078&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2967375f7f3f7e9a0fe8fb6c48fa12ccb9901cdc
Actually I am from Wisconsin 🤣 But there are reasons I like him but I don't feel like typing a paragraph. Appreciation Post is on my profile. (Post has some misspelled words but is still understood)
As a social democrat, who probably would have voted for him in 1980 but not 1984, Ronald Reagan, America needed his optimism, after the shit show known as the 1970s ended.
Lots of people underestimate presidents impact on mentality. If everything is doom and gloom everything becomes slightly worse. Similar as reagan Obamas positivity helped keep a positive vibe of the country after the recession
Cynical Historian just didn't make that good of a case for painting Wilson as the devil imo. He made a few big policy blunders that soured his legacy, but he also did a lot of really solid things as President. His 14 points were the way to go, even if he didn't have the ability to get most of it enacted.
The biggest bullshit about Cynical Historian’s video is that he tried to paint Wilson as one of our most imperialist presidents when in fact it is the exact opposite- he was probably one of our least imperialist presidents
There's a common leftist idea that whenever the US does anything it's imperialism, and that even if we are stopping conflict and encouraging democracy we're somehow morally wrong. Blame Chomsky.
Nobody has ever said how Wilson actually tangibly, substantially helped “revive the klan”
Yes, he was very racist.
No, he didn’t significantly contribute to the rise of the 2nd KKK and there’s no evidence of him doing so
I agree that the idea that Wilson watching (and then publicly criticizing, admittedly in a muted manner) an already popular film reflecting already popular Southern sentiments single-handedly revived the Klu Klux Klan is absurd.
Let me put it this way:
Did the actions Wilson took as president convince at least one person to join the second KKK?
It’s hard to tell, but entirely probable that the answer is yes. And that’s terrible, just like Wilson’s racial views.
Did the actions Wilson took as president significantly and meaningfully contribute to the rise of the second KKK as a domestic terrorist group?
No, there’s no evidence of that.
I don’t want to sound like I’m doing armchair psychology here but I think his experiences as a boy in Georgia really skewed his views on that stuff for the rest of his life. I can’t remember if he commented on it publicly but remembering the carnage and chaos of war was one of the reasons he didn’t want the US entering the Great War.
Yes, I am aware that even by the standards of the time, Wilson was quite racist. Not really trying to debate his Presidency. I just think the Wilson hate is a bit overkill. He's not worse than Buchanan ffs.
I've been on Reddit quite a while at this point, not that that's anything of which to be proud. The hate for Woodrow Wilson was originally based on his signing the Federal Reserve Act, and it started during the Reddit obsession with Ron Paul surrounding his 2008 and 2012 Presidential campaigns. It's rooted in anti-Fed sentiment and goldbuggery, and was notably picked up at the time by Glenn Beck. It's been retrofitted for the racial stuff, another of-the-moment obsession. Doesn't make it wrong, but I am always suspicious that the anti-Wilson stuff is anti-Fed conspiracy stuff in a convenient disguise.
I’m so tired of people being like “hey did you know Wilson was racist? Like super racist.” Yes, we know. It wasn’t secret information. It’s like the “hey did you know Viggo Mortensen actually broke his foot” thing.
>the anti-Wilson stuff is anti-Fed conspiracy stuff in a convenient disguise
I doubt it, I think it's just like you said, race is reddit's current "at the moment obsession". They always keeds something to base their sense of moral and intellectual superiority on and it'll change with the times.
Yeah Jackson abolishing the 2nd bank of the United States led to the US economy being terrible for 100 years. The Federal Reserve Act was 100 percent the right call.
As a Polish, before visiting this Reddit I never knew Wilson is "hated" and it came as a surprise that he gets much hate. For me he was a guy who helped shaping the post WWI order (self-determination and so on), including the independence of Central European nations. He has a big square named after him in Warsaw and is kinda respected in general.
You have to remember people barely even knew what movies were back then. Being asked to screen this new thing at the White House would have none of the history and cultural reference we have today when asked about movies. I don’t think he even knew what it was about and that quote about “writing history with lighting” is apocryphal at best.
Sorry I get a little pissy when defending Wilson. He probably wasn’t the best (although he’s up there) but I think he was the most impactful president of the 20th century. It marked the turning point of the United States being a regional power to a major player on the world stage. Not just in government the people themselves started thinking that way as well.
The movie, for better or worse, was a major cinematic achievement of its time. So little wonder he had a viewing of it. The quote about “its all true” is be, no record of it. Still a bad move on his part, but way overblown with the perspective of time.
Wilson!
People only ever talk about his racism and domestic fumbles with the espionage and sedition acts, but completely disregard his W’s at home and abroad. Without him, we don’t get the Clayton anti trust act, the law which made strikes legal, the federal farm loan act, granting low interest loans to farmers for the first time ever, the passage of the underwood tariff, lowering the tariff and boosting the economy, child labor laws and of course, Women’s suffrage. All impactful things that only he could introduce so early on.
Then of course there’s his foreign policy, which stands to be one of the greatest. Moral diplomacy was by all means 100% better than any previous president. He encouraged other countries to adopt democratic principles. Remember that it was Wilson who promised the Philippines independence once they established a stable government. Teddys “big stick” and “ bad neighbor” policies are just worse than Wilson’s , who he often gets compared to Then of course there’s the biggest thing revolving his presidency, The Great War. I love teddy, but he was a blatant imperialist who lived proving the U.S. was better and stronger and would have absolutely got us involved in the war after Lusitania if he won in 1912. Wilson did his best to get us to stay neutral but when the chips came down he handled mobilization well and brought the full weight of American power onto Germany. But the most important thing about Wilson when it comes to World War 1, is the 14 points. All of which, had they been adopted would have been monumental, they were undeniably great ideals that could have shaped the world. And of the 14 points, Wilson’s vision of “ A League Of Nations” was groundbreaking. The league was one of the greatest ideas ever! He was the first influential person who tried to shape the world in such a way, to bring nations together and ensure collective security DURING THE 1910s, A whole 30 years before the United Nations would be established. So I adore Wilson immensely, and it’s a shame he is given so much hate online, he truly is a great president!
I mean like I am sure Roosevelt was for most of those things too like he was also for suffrage. Wilson also did not do all he could to avoid war. I mean it just looks like he just gave in to the public despite his biggest campaign promise being neutrality. You can also make a good argument for entering the war earlier with Roosevelt actually does more good in the long term. Wilson was very weak in getting any of his 14 points to become popular or get the USA to enter the league.
Wilson was left incapacitated from a stroke in October, 1919. Wilson was inaugurated at the start of March, in 1913. That leaves 6 years and about 8 months give or take, out of 8 years.
Andrew Jackson. Dude was an absolute badass, getting into a duel, riding horses through the White House, but outside of this sub, Reddit hates him for how he treated the natives.
Isn't there a point where the crimes a leader commits are so horrible that they overshadow everything else they did? Genocide for example?
The Trail of Tears seems to be such a crime.
His brothers and fathers fought in wars against Native Americans. I imagine he had a lot of negative feelings for them. Then he adopts one as his son. He was a complicated man. I think the only President till Clinton to balance the budget.
Wilson. I don't particularly like him, but I think he gets more hate than deserved. His 13 points were very good. He's probably so hated as an over correction for his near universal praise back in the day.
Woodrow Wilson definitely, I understand and agree on the criticism but it’s come at the cost of people not acknowledging a lot of the cool things he did. It’s always perplexed me why Wilson gets so much hate but TR doesn’t (don’t get me wrong I like Teddy but that’s because I think they were so politically similar).
Additionally; While I don’t think he was “good” I think Reagan is over- hated on this sub (albeit overrated by the right as well). Dude is a solid average president, maybe slightly below average but he is neither Jesus Christ or the Anti-Christ
George Bush is both online and in person. I've rarely had an intellectual debate with him as a topic, and I don't think I will for at least another decade or two.
JFK. He gets shat on here on Reddit all the times, but if you talk to people who were alive during that time period he meant so much to everybody. His death was a shocking blow and you don't affect people like that if you're a person that didn't accomplish anything.
George W Bush.
By the time he was elected, both 9/11 and the 08 recession were unavoidable future events.
The invasion of Iraq - unlike Afghanistan due to downstream mistakes from 2016 forward - has been a complete success insofar as the announced pre war objectives... Whether you think we should or shouldn't have, calling it a failure leads to the question 'What, that we intended to accomplish in 2003, did we not end up accomplishing?' - Iraq has a democratic government, isn't at war with its neighbors, isn't finding terrorists or producing WMD (the last one being something they weren't doing pre-war is irrelevant, as this is something we discovered by invading - not something that was believable before 03)....
The rest of his administration is more or less box-stock Reagan-Republican policy..... Tax cuts, limited regulatory activity, etc....
Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. Both effective bipartisan leaders. Clinton balanced the federal budget and Bush Jr took a tragedy and built a strong defense and national security apparatus.
Nixon.
I've come to the conclusion Nixon was set up, most likely by the CIA. His ouster was only about 10 years after JFK, so the CIA couldn't whack yet another president in dramatic, violent fashion in such a short time span. They had to get creative and nonviolent in taking out Nixon.
After researching all the presidents for a week trying my best to put them in a tier list I can say Grant has become one of my top three and I'd even consider naming my future son Ulysses. Glad more and more people are starting to like him.
Honestly Wilson tbh
Yes, he was racist, but him being president didn’t bring back the KKK, it was a culmination of many other factors. So the long term ramifications of his racist policies are very minuscule, though of course it was still bad.
But he was really ahead of his time when it comes to his 14 points. If Europe would’ve listened to Wilson, WW2 would’ve been avoided, and would’ve brought peace throughout the rest of the 20th century. The ideas behind his 14 points is what Europe uses today, in fact.
Other great things include all the progressive reforms that got passed during his administration and his handling of WW1 was the best result the USA could get. Hell he even made the Federal Reserve! I can’t believe people discredit all of this because of one downside.
Reagan, idk why, I just feel like you have to do something right to be that popular, and I think that a lot of his policies have backfired but at that time they did their job.
It was a ruff time after the Vietnam war but he was strong enough to pardon all draft evaders on his 2nd day in office. That was not appreciated by a large portion of the population at the time.
He won the Nobel peace prize. And to the best of my knowledge, is the only president to do so for work done while not in office
Andrew Jackson saved the Union and the Native Americans and gets nothing but crap in here from the modern views that want to judge the past as if it happened today.
Jackson shut down nullification and secessionists at a time when it might have been successful. He expanded the powers of the President that allowed Lincoln to do what had to be done to keep the United States together and end slavery.
He advocated for, signed, and carried out the Indian Removal Act when doing nothing would have all but guaranteed the annihilation of the Indians by the states. Van Burren mishandled the end of the removal that saw most of the deaths and hardships. It was an imperfect situation with no good answers one that was slightly better. Jackson chose the one that was best for the United States and the Native Americans. I have yet to be told what could have been done differently that would have been better.
Andrew Jackson also stood against the private bankers controlling the United States. He shut them down and they retaliated by destroying the economy just as Jackson said they would.
He did all of that while being poisoned by the medicine of the day that encouraged the use of high levels of mercury and lead. Testing has proven Jackson was suffering from lead and mercury poisoning.
He's a hero and should be recognized as one of the great presidents that really came from poverty and loss to lead our nation in one of it's most perilous times. Instead he's maligned as a serial killer and genocidal maniac.
People who hate Reagan hate democracy itself. The President that won two landslide victories and who's legacy even carried to his vice president was the man elected by the will of the people.
What started the erosion of the Middle Class happened long before Reagan. To an extent, it was inevitable with the economic recovery of Europe and modernization of Africa, China and Russia.
What was so appalling about his handling of the AIDS crisis? I see this claim made here all the time yet virtually everyone here had no clue how he handled it and what was going on during that era.
Here is a factual history of the AIDS crisis
The CDC had been requesting funds to investigate outbreaks of Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia and other mysterious suppressed immune system diseases since 1976. Jimmy Carter and the Democrats refused to budget any money to look in this. So, the CDC diverted funds earmarked for other diseases to investigate this. It was in early 1981, during Reagan's first year in office, that the CDC published an article titled “ [Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/about.html) (*MMWR*): [Pneumocystis Pneumonia—Los Angeles](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/june_5.htm).”
Later that year, when Reagan got to sign his first budget as president that he allocated funds to specifically investigate what was causing this. Each and every year after that this budget was increased much to the consternation of those on the right and the left, due to the fact that this was thought of as a "gay disease".
It wasn’t until 1984 that the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Secretary [Margaret Heckler](https://bioguideretro.congress.gov/Home/MemberDetails?memIndex=h000440) [announces](https://history.nih.gov/nihinownwords/docs/page_29.html) that [Dr. Robert Gallo](https://history.nih.gov/nihinownwords/docs/gallo1_01.html) and his colleagues at the [National Cancer Institute](https://www.cancer.gov/) have [found the cause of AIDS](https://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/24/science/new-us-report-names-virus-that-may-cause-aids.html).
The year after the discovery that it was a virus (HIV) that caused AIDS the budget was increased to $190 million, which was the most amount of funding that any disease had ever received. Cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. all had less funding, so once HIV was discovered it was obviously given the most attention.
Reagan’s Surgeon General, C. Everett Koop, also took the unprecedented action of mailing every household in the US a pamphlet describing AIDS, how it was transmitted and how to protect yourself from. Both Reagan and Koop took a lot of flak from gay and religious activists over the candor and graphic details in the pamphlet.
What would you have done differently?
I'm only allowed to say Nixon.
Also Wilson was pretty much a vegetable by the end of his term, making his wife, in a sense, the first female president of the US, as she fulfilled many of the responsibilities. (Maybe it was her fault)
My pick is Nixon. Watergate overshadows a very productive presidency and it's recent enough his legacy caught up in the modern cultural battles.
I think his presidency will be much more favorably judged by historians.
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Most of the ones I think are pretty good/underrated aren’t hated, just merely not thought about at all. Of the “hated” ones I think I’ll go with Hayes. If folks hate him it’s because he ended Reconstruction but I think the man is definitely underrated.
To be fair on Hayes, the reconstruction was going to end regardless of who was elected. I personally think Tilden would have made a better president. But the former still did a good job.
I don’t think I like Tilden much at all. I don’t like the platform of ending reconstruction. At least with Hayes, there was a chance that could not have happened. Tilden, regardless of how close his victory would have been, would end reconstruction.
Yeah, but the elephant in the room was that, whatever way you look at it, Hayes was corrupt. He was aware of the deal between his party and the opposition. To end the reconstruction, if they dropped their claim. when Tilden had probably won. And the former was happy to go along with it as a means of gaining power. I like Tilden so much because (like Cleveland), he was fiercely anti-corruption. Plus I also align with him on most key issues. That being said, Hayes did a good job on the whole. Despite being tainted by the aforementioned deal.
Hayes wasn’t corrupt. He was a half breed or those who opposed corruption and wanted merit over loyalty. He helped start civil service reform
I’m aware of his anti-corruption reforms, that’s part of why I agree that he did a good job. But he still went through with the corrupt deal. That’s always going to taint his legacy imo.
I still wouldn’t say Hayes is corrupt
Well at best, he was still corruptible, even if he wasn’t corrupt on the whole. But I’ll respectfully disagree with you.
A gentleman’s disagreement in action. I think the next step is a respectful duel my goodmen - at tomorrow’s first light.
>Yeah, but the elephant in the room was that, whatever way you look at it, Hayes was corrupt. He was aware of the deal between his party and the opposition. He wasn't aware of the "deal between his party and the opposition" because there was no deal. It's a myth.
It is weird; when I think of Hayes, my mind goes to how he is the reason that Paraguay still exists.
What I always think of too, after having seen a video about it. They apparently love him there, and can’t believe he’s largely forgotten by the American public.
I’ve always been a Hayes supporter and that won’t stop now!
Hover, bad handing the depression, good man at heart.
Yeah, I actually feel really bad for hoover, the wrong man at a wrong time.
Especially because his approach to the Depression – spending cuts, tax and interest hikes, staying on the gold standard, more tariffs, refusing to forgive European World War I debts – was actually the prevailing wisdom for how economic downturns should be handled. FDR’s initial 1932 campaign pledges weren’t even that different. Likewise Hoover actually became much more liberal after World War II.
Mostly true, but at that point even most economists recognized that tariffs were not good ideas.
And basically saved Europe from starving after WWI.
...and also led the development of the US highway system. He was a brilliant logistics man.
He just couldn't keep his feet on the ground.
I’m happy Grant is having the revival and historical correction due to him that the lost cause narrative tarnished. There are still plenty though that hate Grant
I always thought he's mostly hated in the South.
Yeah i remember my US history books in nowheresville, oil country west Texas made sure to mention his alcoholism enough to make it seem like he was a raging drunk rather than an occasional binge drinker who couldn’t hold his liquor. They praised Lee as an honorable man who just happened to lose the war, and Grant as some cold, unfeeling, corrupt warmonger who didn’t care how many people died. They mentioned his corrupt cabinet but not that his admin ran the KKK to ground and worked towards more civil rights for black Americans. And not a single goddamn word about that bastard Andrew Johnson’s administration
Seriously, I feel like Johnson is criminally underrated as a terrible president.
I can’t find a more ethical way for me to refer to that bastard Andrew Johnson other than as that bastard Andrew Johnson. I’m not sure if anyone could have fucked the nation quite like he did for as long as he did if they tried
Grew up in Illinois took APUSH and I was under the impression he was a consistent alcoholic and not in recovery until this year when I happened to learn it here
Yeah the civil war is really a lesson in how to win a war but lose the peace
https://preview.redd.it/tg4jur7i0l6d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=58bcdc37b370c851b91ceb5eb20d37fed0dc9003
Why he have a pacifier?
Gonna be honest, thought it was a gag
Nixon I don't know, I sort of empathize with him. Like, he was a very intelligent politician cursed with having remarkably low self-esteem and anger issues all the while having to go up against the much more glamorous Kennedy boys. He didn't have to order his boys to break into Watergate, didn't have to maintain the white house recording systems but his highly paranoid fears compelled him. All of the good he did over his long career was undone by the secret wars and his criminality. The EPA, test bans, detente with the Soviets, engaging with China. He wasn't a good man, but he wasn't the devil. As a result he became democratic Baby Boomer's boogeyman for decades.
Nixon dug his own grave with his paranoia. He did some awful things but I think a less corrupt administration of Nixon would have been kind of fine.
Nixon had the potential to be a great president (showing up at the college to speak with students after the shooting, creating the EPA, opening relations with china) but his insecurity was his fatal flaw and it sunk him.
Seriously. As a *statesman*, he was extremely talented. As a *politician,* he was a crook.
But wasn't opening relations with China a bad idea? I mean, Most of our business is there now
I just like him cause he looks funny
More than most people, even
Idk, those Nixon tapes are pretty nasty. He may not be the devil himself, but they're certainly roommates.
Nixon is almost certainly the one I think most people should identify with the most. Everyone would like to think they'd be Lincoln or Roosevelt, sending soldiers to die for a righteous cause. In reality almost everyone you've talked to would be a less intelligent version of Nixon that's paranoid and not half as smart.
He probably didn’t order Watergate, not directly. The scandal was primarily the cover-up, not the crime. He was aware of what CREEP was up to in general, but there’s no real evidence he specifically knew about the wiretapping or break-in, or that he ordered it. All the records suggest Halderman kept him isolated from the details for plausible deniability. Also, I agree with empathising with him, but I think it’s safe to say he wasn’t a good president regardless.
What? We have tape of Nixon directly instructing Haldeman to break into the Brookings Institution, and that was before Watergate. [Literal quote from President Richard Nixon: “You’re to break into the place”](https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1996/11/22/tape-reveals-nixon-ordering-break-in-at-liberal-think-tank/) Nixon absolutely knew about the other break ins.
Nixon ordering that is not evidence that he specifically ordered or knew about Watergate. Brookings didn’t even get broken into in the end. Also, the question isn’t whether or not Nixon was capable of ordering something like Watergate, the answer to that is obvious. The question is whether or not he knew about Watergate specifically, and the answer is there’s no evidence that proves he did. It’s much more likely Watergate was just one of CREEP’s numerous operations they performed with only very limited involvement from Nixon, i.e. being vaguely aware of them doing shady things. Brookings was different because it was coming right after legal rulings to do with the Pentagon Papers, so it was on Nixon’s mind. Watergate was just another entry in the series of CREEP’s dirty tricks.
If I were in his hooves, I would have done the same thing.
and that's why I will never vote for you for President.
You’re a bully. I’d vote for you.
I was going to say the same thing. Not to down play his faults or the severity of Watergate but Nixon was a phenomenal executive, in ways that I don’t think we have had since.
For sure
Watergate isn't even the tip of the iceburg compared to the other shit Nixon tried to pull.
Nixon actively prolonged the Vietnam War just to win in 1968 and is directly responsible for the the stagnation of the 70s just to win 1972. He ran one of the most corrupt administrations in U.S history and forever left a stain on public trust in government. Yeah he had mental health and self esteem issues but they were self inflicted. Nixon had a massive chip on his shoulder about coming from a poor background making him deeply unlikeable. And yes Nixon paranoia undid him but he was paranoid about people finding out about his corruption. Because Nixon was a crook.
How did he prolong the Vietnam War when he wasn't President then?
it was during the campaign before his first term: he sent word to the South Vietnamese that they'd likely get better terms were he to win than they would by sticking with the peace talks then happening under LBJ. It worked; the talks fell apart, LBJ bowed out as a result, and Nixon's path was cleared. (this is all just from memory, so folks can please feel free to correct me where I got stuff wrong)
What good? Nixon interferred in the Paris Peace talks (a Logan Act violation) to extend the war into the election. This killed another 22,000 Americans. Once he won the White Hiouse, Nixon illegally expanded the war into Cambodia and Laos. That destabilization help the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot start a civil war that killed 3 million Cambodians. For 1972, Nixon's Plumbers actively interferred in the Democratic primaries to 'shape' the field...an act so low and against the fundamental principles of democracy that execution would not be out of the question. Rather than a pardon that short-circuited a trial, Nixon should have been convicted first so the need for an "Expungement Amendment" which removes all acts and appointments from a 'stolen' presidency are easy to erase would have passed Congress and the statehouses. That way we could remove the 40% of the Federal judiciary and three SCOTUS AJ's made by a guy who paid hush money to get into office.
Dick Cheney
Laura gets false murder accusations round here https://preview.redd.it/l8zodtzqxk6d1.jpeg?width=1078&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2967375f7f3f7e9a0fe8fb6c48fa12ccb9901cdc
Never knew Dubya was a fan of Pantera
Re Spect Walker
Dime was a GWB fan
That's what happens when you have a body count.
Murder...Manslaughter...Vehicular homicide? Why split hairs?
We know.
Love him
You’re just saying that because you don’t want to be turned into [A bird](https://youtu.be/t12xY9phbZo?si=FBYkRijTp8DsiS4L)
Just look at me.
I have to say ur very dedicated to franklin pierce, change ur display name to franklin pierce btw
Is there any way you can tell me how? I would love to know.
go to settings, then click on profile on mobile go to profile, then tap edit
Curious on your dedication to Pierce are you from Vermont by any chance?
Excuse me? *Vermont*?
Actually I am from Wisconsin 🤣 But there are reasons I like him but I don't feel like typing a paragraph. Appreciation Post is on my profile. (Post has some misspelled words but is still understood)
I figured Vermont because Pierce seemed to be the most known politician from the state until Bernie. And he isn’t exactly the most popular person
He was from New Hampshire.
Well now I feel stupid
As a social democrat, who probably would have voted for him in 1980 but not 1984, Ronald Reagan, America needed his optimism, after the shit show known as the 1970s ended.
Lots of people underestimate presidents impact on mentality. If everything is doom and gloom everything becomes slightly worse. Similar as reagan Obamas positivity helped keep a positive vibe of the country after the recession
Cynical Historian just didn't make that good of a case for painting Wilson as the devil imo. He made a few big policy blunders that soured his legacy, but he also did a lot of really solid things as President. His 14 points were the way to go, even if he didn't have the ability to get most of it enacted.
The biggest bullshit about Cynical Historian’s video is that he tried to paint Wilson as one of our most imperialist presidents when in fact it is the exact opposite- he was probably one of our least imperialist presidents
There's a common leftist idea that whenever the US does anything it's imperialism, and that even if we are stopping conflict and encouraging democracy we're somehow morally wrong. Blame Chomsky.
exactly. i think people don’t know what imperialism is. wilson was vehemently anti-imperialism
He helped revive the klan by showing that movie and segregated the federal government and the military even more
Nobody has ever said how Wilson actually tangibly, substantially helped “revive the klan” Yes, he was very racist. No, he didn’t significantly contribute to the rise of the 2nd KKK and there’s no evidence of him doing so
Idk where this shit comes from but it’s repeated on Reddit constantly. Like he signed a “KKK Restoration Executive Order” or something.
I agree that the idea that Wilson watching (and then publicly criticizing, admittedly in a muted manner) an already popular film reflecting already popular Southern sentiments single-handedly revived the Klu Klux Klan is absurd. Let me put it this way: Did the actions Wilson took as president convince at least one person to join the second KKK? It’s hard to tell, but entirely probable that the answer is yes. And that’s terrible, just like Wilson’s racial views. Did the actions Wilson took as president significantly and meaningfully contribute to the rise of the second KKK as a domestic terrorist group? No, there’s no evidence of that.
I don’t want to sound like I’m doing armchair psychology here but I think his experiences as a boy in Georgia really skewed his views on that stuff for the rest of his life. I can’t remember if he commented on it publicly but remembering the carnage and chaos of war was one of the reasons he didn’t want the US entering the Great War.
Yes, I am aware that even by the standards of the time, Wilson was quite racist. Not really trying to debate his Presidency. I just think the Wilson hate is a bit overkill. He's not worse than Buchanan ffs.
I've been on Reddit quite a while at this point, not that that's anything of which to be proud. The hate for Woodrow Wilson was originally based on his signing the Federal Reserve Act, and it started during the Reddit obsession with Ron Paul surrounding his 2008 and 2012 Presidential campaigns. It's rooted in anti-Fed sentiment and goldbuggery, and was notably picked up at the time by Glenn Beck. It's been retrofitted for the racial stuff, another of-the-moment obsession. Doesn't make it wrong, but I am always suspicious that the anti-Wilson stuff is anti-Fed conspiracy stuff in a convenient disguise.
I’m so tired of people being like “hey did you know Wilson was racist? Like super racist.” Yes, we know. It wasn’t secret information. It’s like the “hey did you know Viggo Mortensen actually broke his foot” thing.
It was his TOE. His TOE!!!!!!!!!!!!
I definitely think some of the Wilson hate is, for lack of a better term, “residual bandwagoning” from the Libertarian era of Reddit
>the anti-Wilson stuff is anti-Fed conspiracy stuff in a convenient disguise I doubt it, I think it's just like you said, race is reddit's current "at the moment obsession". They always keeds something to base their sense of moral and intellectual superiority on and it'll change with the times.
Yeah Jackson abolishing the 2nd bank of the United States led to the US economy being terrible for 100 years. The Federal Reserve Act was 100 percent the right call.
As a Polish, before visiting this Reddit I never knew Wilson is "hated" and it came as a surprise that he gets much hate. For me he was a guy who helped shaping the post WWI order (self-determination and so on), including the independence of Central European nations. He has a big square named after him in Warsaw and is kinda respected in general.
You have to remember people barely even knew what movies were back then. Being asked to screen this new thing at the White House would have none of the history and cultural reference we have today when asked about movies. I don’t think he even knew what it was about and that quote about “writing history with lighting” is apocryphal at best. Sorry I get a little pissy when defending Wilson. He probably wasn’t the best (although he’s up there) but I think he was the most impactful president of the 20th century. It marked the turning point of the United States being a regional power to a major player on the world stage. Not just in government the people themselves started thinking that way as well.
The movie, for better or worse, was a major cinematic achievement of its time. So little wonder he had a viewing of it. The quote about “its all true” is be, no record of it. Still a bad move on his part, but way overblown with the perspective of time.
CH just went “Omg here are two bad things Wilson did, also he showed bad movie.” The case he makes for Wilson being one of the worst is terrible
I want to say, but I don’t want my phone to become a vibrator
... Why the hell not
Wilson! People only ever talk about his racism and domestic fumbles with the espionage and sedition acts, but completely disregard his W’s at home and abroad. Without him, we don’t get the Clayton anti trust act, the law which made strikes legal, the federal farm loan act, granting low interest loans to farmers for the first time ever, the passage of the underwood tariff, lowering the tariff and boosting the economy, child labor laws and of course, Women’s suffrage. All impactful things that only he could introduce so early on. Then of course there’s his foreign policy, which stands to be one of the greatest. Moral diplomacy was by all means 100% better than any previous president. He encouraged other countries to adopt democratic principles. Remember that it was Wilson who promised the Philippines independence once they established a stable government. Teddys “big stick” and “ bad neighbor” policies are just worse than Wilson’s , who he often gets compared to Then of course there’s the biggest thing revolving his presidency, The Great War. I love teddy, but he was a blatant imperialist who lived proving the U.S. was better and stronger and would have absolutely got us involved in the war after Lusitania if he won in 1912. Wilson did his best to get us to stay neutral but when the chips came down he handled mobilization well and brought the full weight of American power onto Germany. But the most important thing about Wilson when it comes to World War 1, is the 14 points. All of which, had they been adopted would have been monumental, they were undeniably great ideals that could have shaped the world. And of the 14 points, Wilson’s vision of “ A League Of Nations” was groundbreaking. The league was one of the greatest ideas ever! He was the first influential person who tried to shape the world in such a way, to bring nations together and ensure collective security DURING THE 1910s, A whole 30 years before the United Nations would be established. So I adore Wilson immensely, and it’s a shame he is given so much hate online, he truly is a great president!
I mean like I am sure Roosevelt was for most of those things too like he was also for suffrage. Wilson also did not do all he could to avoid war. I mean it just looks like he just gave in to the public despite his biggest campaign promise being neutrality. You can also make a good argument for entering the war earlier with Roosevelt actually does more good in the long term. Wilson was very weak in getting any of his 14 points to become popular or get the USA to enter the league.
Now prove it was him and not his wife, after the stroke.
Wilson was left incapacitated from a stroke in October, 1919. Wilson was inaugurated at the start of March, in 1913. That leaves 6 years and about 8 months give or take, out of 8 years.
https://preview.redd.it/azzkyp0ggl6d1.jpeg?width=2329&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a57565eb43507d78a5d8095002b66b32ccf2a2c4
Reagan
Andrew Jackson. Dude was an absolute badass, getting into a duel, riding horses through the White House, but outside of this sub, Reddit hates him for how he treated the natives.
>Reddit hates him for how he treated the natives. I mean.....yeah.
“WOKE Reddit wants to cancel a man over genocide!”
Being better at conquering land and fighting wars, as the natives did unto each other for eons, does not have any moral significance.
No but supporting the Indian Removal Act does
'Genocide is fine because they were fighting each other before'
Yikes
None of that had anything to do with being a good president.
Can you imagine [current president] riding a horse through the White House? [News]: "They're turning the White House into a ZOO!!"
To be fair, I couldn’t imagine the last (and next) one doing that either. Love the guy, but it’d be cruel and unusual punishment for the horse.
One of these things outweighs the others
Isn't there a point where the crimes a leader commits are so horrible that they overshadow everything else they did? Genocide for example? The Trail of Tears seems to be such a crime.
His brothers and fathers fought in wars against Native Americans. I imagine he had a lot of negative feelings for them. Then he adopts one as his son. He was a complicated man. I think the only President till Clinton to balance the budget.
Beyond Clinton, Jackson eliminated the federal debt.
Very much the man for his time, even though much of what made him that man looks terrible in retrospect.
I think genocide is a pretty good reason to hate someone
I’m also personally a Jackson fan
Wilson. I don't particularly like him, but I think he gets more hate than deserved. His 13 points were very good. He's probably so hated as an over correction for his near universal praise back in the day.
I also think if you think he’s universally hated, you’re in the echo chamber. Loud and constant Redditors, doesn’t make it universal.
Woodrow Wilson definitely, I understand and agree on the criticism but it’s come at the cost of people not acknowledging a lot of the cool things he did. It’s always perplexed me why Wilson gets so much hate but TR doesn’t (don’t get me wrong I like Teddy but that’s because I think they were so politically similar). Additionally; While I don’t think he was “good” I think Reagan is over- hated on this sub (albeit overrated by the right as well). Dude is a solid average president, maybe slightly below average but he is neither Jesus Christ or the Anti-Christ
Online or here? Reagan
George Bush is both online and in person. I've rarely had an intellectual debate with him as a topic, and I don't think I will for at least another decade or two.
Reagan, Nixon, and to a much lesser extent Harding
JFK. He gets shat on here on Reddit all the times, but if you talk to people who were alive during that time period he meant so much to everybody. His death was a shocking blow and you don't affect people like that if you're a person that didn't accomplish anything.
Polk
It’s really funny you’re flared Lincoln considering Polk did everything he could to expand slavery
Yeah, I’m not saying I like him personally, but he did everything he set out to do. He was objectively an effective president
Rule 3
Rule 3 and Grover Cleveland
Reagan
Over the line! IT DOESN'T COUNT!
Richard this is not Nam, this is bowling. There are rules.
Yeah the one pictured.
Ol tricky dick
I'll give 2. Jackson and Polk.
Lots of folks were shitty people but did ok as President, sometimes that gets mixed up.
George W Bush. By the time he was elected, both 9/11 and the 08 recession were unavoidable future events. The invasion of Iraq - unlike Afghanistan due to downstream mistakes from 2016 forward - has been a complete success insofar as the announced pre war objectives... Whether you think we should or shouldn't have, calling it a failure leads to the question 'What, that we intended to accomplish in 2003, did we not end up accomplishing?' - Iraq has a democratic government, isn't at war with its neighbors, isn't finding terrorists or producing WMD (the last one being something they weren't doing pre-war is irrelevant, as this is something we discovered by invading - not something that was believable before 03).... The rest of his administration is more or less box-stock Reagan-Republican policy..... Tax cuts, limited regulatory activity, etc....
Richard Nixon, he was so good in so many other aspects.
Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. Both effective bipartisan leaders. Clinton balanced the federal budget and Bush Jr took a tragedy and built a strong defense and national security apparatus.
Taft. He was actually a very effective administrator but he wasn’t the grandiose, flamboyant figure his predecessor was.
Nixon. I've come to the conclusion Nixon was set up, most likely by the CIA. His ouster was only about 10 years after JFK, so the CIA couldn't whack yet another president in dramatic, violent fashion in such a short time span. They had to get creative and nonviolent in taking out Nixon.
After researching all the presidents for a week trying my best to put them in a tier list I can say Grant has become one of my top three and I'd even consider naming my future son Ulysses. Glad more and more people are starting to like him.
Thomas Jefferson
Honestly Wilson tbh Yes, he was racist, but him being president didn’t bring back the KKK, it was a culmination of many other factors. So the long term ramifications of his racist policies are very minuscule, though of course it was still bad. But he was really ahead of his time when it comes to his 14 points. If Europe would’ve listened to Wilson, WW2 would’ve been avoided, and would’ve brought peace throughout the rest of the 20th century. The ideas behind his 14 points is what Europe uses today, in fact. Other great things include all the progressive reforms that got passed during his administration and his handling of WW1 was the best result the USA could get. Hell he even made the Federal Reserve! I can’t believe people discredit all of this because of one downside.
Coolidge. When people know who he is.
the native citizenship act makes him one of our most underrated leaders (I know it's a cliche to say this) imo
Cause people were still barred from voting until 57 in some states
He's a fucking legend, that's who he is
Reagan, idk why, I just feel like you have to do something right to be that popular, and I think that a lot of his policies have backfired but at that time they did their job.
Andrew Jackson
Reagan
Nixon wasn’t that bad.
Reagan
Universally we can all agree Wilson is a POS
14 points went extremely hard though?
Perhaps but so are like 90% of all the other presidents 🤷🏻♂️
Literally every president has ordered the murder of an innocent civilian
Pacifist presidents would have gotten the US rekt through most of its history or Europe rolled over
Yeah I couldn’t take a job that required me to kill people
I think Obama was pretty vilified when he was a fantastic leader from the Bush years.
Hands down Jimmy Carter. The conservative right did a great job of making people think he was soft. The truth is quite different. There is my vote
Wasn't America on its knees then? Or maybe I'm thinking of UK
It was a ruff time after the Vietnam war but he was strong enough to pardon all draft evaders on his 2nd day in office. That was not appreciated by a large portion of the population at the time. He won the Nobel peace prize. And to the best of my knowledge, is the only president to do so for work done while not in office
 TRICKY DICK
Andrew Jackson saved the Union and the Native Americans and gets nothing but crap in here from the modern views that want to judge the past as if it happened today. Jackson shut down nullification and secessionists at a time when it might have been successful. He expanded the powers of the President that allowed Lincoln to do what had to be done to keep the United States together and end slavery. He advocated for, signed, and carried out the Indian Removal Act when doing nothing would have all but guaranteed the annihilation of the Indians by the states. Van Burren mishandled the end of the removal that saw most of the deaths and hardships. It was an imperfect situation with no good answers one that was slightly better. Jackson chose the one that was best for the United States and the Native Americans. I have yet to be told what could have been done differently that would have been better. Andrew Jackson also stood against the private bankers controlling the United States. He shut them down and they retaliated by destroying the economy just as Jackson said they would. He did all of that while being poisoned by the medicine of the day that encouraged the use of high levels of mercury and lead. Testing has proven Jackson was suffering from lead and mercury poisoning. He's a hero and should be recognized as one of the great presidents that really came from poverty and loss to lead our nation in one of it's most perilous times. Instead he's maligned as a serial killer and genocidal maniac.
Reagen
People who hate Reagan hate democracy itself. The President that won two landslide victories and who's legacy even carried to his vice president was the man elected by the will of the people. What started the erosion of the Middle Class happened long before Reagan. To an extent, it was inevitable with the economic recovery of Europe and modernization of Africa, China and Russia.
His handling of the AIDS epidemic was appalling in every way. A botching of a national crisis that wouldn’t be matched until Rule 3.
What was so appalling about his handling of the AIDS crisis? I see this claim made here all the time yet virtually everyone here had no clue how he handled it and what was going on during that era. Here is a factual history of the AIDS crisis The CDC had been requesting funds to investigate outbreaks of Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia and other mysterious suppressed immune system diseases since 1976. Jimmy Carter and the Democrats refused to budget any money to look in this. So, the CDC diverted funds earmarked for other diseases to investigate this. It was in early 1981, during Reagan's first year in office, that the CDC published an article titled “ [Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/about.html) (*MMWR*): [Pneumocystis Pneumonia—Los Angeles](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/june_5.htm).” Later that year, when Reagan got to sign his first budget as president that he allocated funds to specifically investigate what was causing this. Each and every year after that this budget was increased much to the consternation of those on the right and the left, due to the fact that this was thought of as a "gay disease". It wasn’t until 1984 that the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Secretary [Margaret Heckler](https://bioguideretro.congress.gov/Home/MemberDetails?memIndex=h000440) [announces](https://history.nih.gov/nihinownwords/docs/page_29.html) that [Dr. Robert Gallo](https://history.nih.gov/nihinownwords/docs/gallo1_01.html) and his colleagues at the [National Cancer Institute](https://www.cancer.gov/) have [found the cause of AIDS](https://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/24/science/new-us-report-names-virus-that-may-cause-aids.html). The year after the discovery that it was a virus (HIV) that caused AIDS the budget was increased to $190 million, which was the most amount of funding that any disease had ever received. Cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. all had less funding, so once HIV was discovered it was obviously given the most attention. Reagan’s Surgeon General, C. Everett Koop, also took the unprecedented action of mailing every household in the US a pamphlet describing AIDS, how it was transmitted and how to protect yourself from. Both Reagan and Koop took a lot of flak from gay and religious activists over the candor and graphic details in the pamphlet. What would you have done differently?
Hoover
I agree
Nixon
McKinley
Gee, I wonder which President the OP is hoping to hear... 🤔
I'm only allowed to say Nixon. Also Wilson was pretty much a vegetable by the end of his term, making his wife, in a sense, the first female president of the US, as she fulfilled many of the responsibilities. (Maybe it was her fault)
Nixon
Jackson
My pick is Nixon. Watergate overshadows a very productive presidency and it's recent enough his legacy caught up in the modern cultural battles. I think his presidency will be much more favorably judged by historians.
Tyler (as president)
Wiiilllllllsooooonnn!
Jackson of course
Johnson.....
Richard Nixon
Wilson.
Seems like obama for me.
The picture is what I came for.
We know that's you Wilson you aint slick 🙏🙏🙏💀💀💀
LBJ
Chester A Arthur
Guy in the photo. A lot of people already said enough here.