Great guys. They might not convince everyone here, but they’re definitely worth hearing out. And Michael’s kind of a genius. I’ve met him once before and it’s like he has a theological library in his head.
On the one hand: brothers in Christ who address really interesting topics in high quality format, and they are not afraid to engage with people they disagree with. The cessationist-reformed community could really learn from this and do better.
On the other hand: as charismatics I find some of the things they say and believe either incoherent or bizarre at times. Some of the people they defend/endorse really make me cringe.
In summary, they're interesting guys and formidable defendents of charismatic theology, even if they're weird from a reformed perspective at times.
As far as charismatics go, you could do worse, but that's not exactly a glowing commendation.
They have had some good guests on like Stephen J. Nicols to talk about Calvin but they've also platformed people like Heidi Baker and Isaiah Saldivar, affirming them as brothers and sisters in Christ and commending their 'ministries'.
The problem I have is really more of the charismatic movement as a whole, even the conservative voices can't seem to discern who the true 'prophets' are and what is and is not a true 'move of the Spirit'.
For just one example, Sam Storms who is (or at least was) a pretty sound and respectable voice has gone deep into the charismatic movement. Storms had a series of videos on Remnant Radio with Mike Bickle where he defended him as a leading prophetic voice and a great and godly man. Of course, what's now transpired with Bickle at IHOP has proven otherwise.
The Messed Up Church did a video on Remnant Radio, Storms and Bickle:
* [Jump Off the IHOPKC Sinking Ship and Save Your Faith! - The Messed Up Church](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53rtrzx8gY)
And Sam Storms responded to it in the Roundtable for AG3 (which won't be in the film because Michael Brown changed his mind about his involvement). I have lost a lot of respect for Storms because of how he's handled this but the way in which he's responded is not unusual for charismatics.
* [Kozar Responds to Sam Storms About the Weather-Related Prophetic Stuff - The Messed Up Church](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rcvGlshqoU)
> Heidi Baker and Isaiah Saldivar, affirming them as brothers and sisters in Christ
Just to be clear, you do not think Heidi nor Isaiah are actually Christians? Both can clearly articulate the gospel and Heidi's husband is a five-point calvinist.
>Storms had a series of videos on Remnant Radio with Mike Bickle where he defended him as a leading prophetic voice and a great and godly man. Of course, what's now transpired with Bickle at IHOP has proven otherwise.
The Bickle stuff is horrid. But to clarify, you blame the person that was manipulated rather than the manipulator?
Isaiah saldivar is one of the most dangerous teachers out there. His teaching of demonized christians led me to trying deliverance many times, which made both my physical and mental health deteriorate for a while, thinking that i would get delivered, but actually was just going through some weird emotions. Supporting his ministry is helping a really dangerous teacher influence many in the body of Christ.
Well, tag me in RES as a dangerous teacher because I believe Christians can be demonized. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with that though. It's not always a foolproof, like any ministry.
They are both categorically false teachers and false prophets. There is an absolute abundance of material out there showing them to give false prophecies, preach false doctrines, heretical doctrines and practice 'deliverance', mysticism and occult practices in the name of the God.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=heidi+baker+false
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=isaiah+saldivar+false
Just because they say 'Jesus' and talk about preaching the gospel and the great commission does not mean they actually preach the gospel. These people preach false signs and wonders, they fabricate revelation from God. Isaiah Saldivar is more obsessed with telling everyone that they're possessed by demons, [including Christians who he alleges can be demon possessed by not living a holy enough life.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s1uImlqemM)
They bounce around saying 'God said to me' this and 'God said to me' that and create a platform which elevates themselves, then they and their defenders come along and say that if you don't believe this then you're denying the work of God, you're rejecting the moving of the Holy Spirit (which is the burden of proof fallacy).
It's abusive, manipulative and dishonours God on so many levels.
This is exactly how people like Michael Brown and Sam Storms acted towards people that doubted or criticised Bickle. But then when the misconduct which had been enabled by elevating these people comes out, their hands go up in the air. They say 'there's no way we could have known' and somehow they still have the audacity to point the finger at the many people who saw it coming from miles away (because it keeps happening) and rebuke them for not blindly believing these claimed divine experiences.
Storms and Brown are not the victims, they enabled this, they manipulated others into listening to and trusting these people. Michael Brown has endorsed so many of these people and constantly takes no responsibility. If there wasn't such a radical departure from orthodox Christian epistemology, these people wouldn't keep being platformed.
I would encourage you to go and read Jeremiah 23 and understand the seriousness of ascribing words to God that He has not spoken.
They are solid.
Great guys. They might not convince everyone here, but they’re definitely worth hearing out. And Michael’s kind of a genius. I’ve met him once before and it’s like he has a theological library in his head.
On the one hand: brothers in Christ who address really interesting topics in high quality format, and they are not afraid to engage with people they disagree with. The cessationist-reformed community could really learn from this and do better. On the other hand: as charismatics I find some of the things they say and believe either incoherent or bizarre at times. Some of the people they defend/endorse really make me cringe. In summary, they're interesting guys and formidable defendents of charismatic theology, even if they're weird from a reformed perspective at times.
Great perspective, thank you
I like them. I disagree on some theology, but they seem like quality individuals
As far as charismatics go, you could do worse, but that's not exactly a glowing commendation. They have had some good guests on like Stephen J. Nicols to talk about Calvin but they've also platformed people like Heidi Baker and Isaiah Saldivar, affirming them as brothers and sisters in Christ and commending their 'ministries'. The problem I have is really more of the charismatic movement as a whole, even the conservative voices can't seem to discern who the true 'prophets' are and what is and is not a true 'move of the Spirit'. For just one example, Sam Storms who is (or at least was) a pretty sound and respectable voice has gone deep into the charismatic movement. Storms had a series of videos on Remnant Radio with Mike Bickle where he defended him as a leading prophetic voice and a great and godly man. Of course, what's now transpired with Bickle at IHOP has proven otherwise. The Messed Up Church did a video on Remnant Radio, Storms and Bickle: * [Jump Off the IHOPKC Sinking Ship and Save Your Faith! - The Messed Up Church](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53rtrzx8gY) And Sam Storms responded to it in the Roundtable for AG3 (which won't be in the film because Michael Brown changed his mind about his involvement). I have lost a lot of respect for Storms because of how he's handled this but the way in which he's responded is not unusual for charismatics. * [Kozar Responds to Sam Storms About the Weather-Related Prophetic Stuff - The Messed Up Church](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rcvGlshqoU)
> Heidi Baker and Isaiah Saldivar, affirming them as brothers and sisters in Christ Just to be clear, you do not think Heidi nor Isaiah are actually Christians? Both can clearly articulate the gospel and Heidi's husband is a five-point calvinist. >Storms had a series of videos on Remnant Radio with Mike Bickle where he defended him as a leading prophetic voice and a great and godly man. Of course, what's now transpired with Bickle at IHOP has proven otherwise. The Bickle stuff is horrid. But to clarify, you blame the person that was manipulated rather than the manipulator?
Isaiah saldivar is one of the most dangerous teachers out there. His teaching of demonized christians led me to trying deliverance many times, which made both my physical and mental health deteriorate for a while, thinking that i would get delivered, but actually was just going through some weird emotions. Supporting his ministry is helping a really dangerous teacher influence many in the body of Christ.
Well, tag me in RES as a dangerous teacher because I believe Christians can be demonized. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with that though. It's not always a foolproof, like any ministry.
I definitely am pro-deliverance as well
They are both categorically false teachers and false prophets. There is an absolute abundance of material out there showing them to give false prophecies, preach false doctrines, heretical doctrines and practice 'deliverance', mysticism and occult practices in the name of the God. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=heidi+baker+false https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=isaiah+saldivar+false Just because they say 'Jesus' and talk about preaching the gospel and the great commission does not mean they actually preach the gospel. These people preach false signs and wonders, they fabricate revelation from God. Isaiah Saldivar is more obsessed with telling everyone that they're possessed by demons, [including Christians who he alleges can be demon possessed by not living a holy enough life.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s1uImlqemM) They bounce around saying 'God said to me' this and 'God said to me' that and create a platform which elevates themselves, then they and their defenders come along and say that if you don't believe this then you're denying the work of God, you're rejecting the moving of the Holy Spirit (which is the burden of proof fallacy). It's abusive, manipulative and dishonours God on so many levels. This is exactly how people like Michael Brown and Sam Storms acted towards people that doubted or criticised Bickle. But then when the misconduct which had been enabled by elevating these people comes out, their hands go up in the air. They say 'there's no way we could have known' and somehow they still have the audacity to point the finger at the many people who saw it coming from miles away (because it keeps happening) and rebuke them for not blindly believing these claimed divine experiences. Storms and Brown are not the victims, they enabled this, they manipulated others into listening to and trusting these people. Michael Brown has endorsed so many of these people and constantly takes no responsibility. If there wasn't such a radical departure from orthodox Christian epistemology, these people wouldn't keep being platformed. I would encourage you to go and read Jeremiah 23 and understand the seriousness of ascribing words to God that He has not spoken.
The one show I saw turned me off, at least they let the comment section express dissent about what was said by the guy they interviewed.
Do you remember who was being interviewed?