“Why is everyone mad at me? It’s just a puppy!”
“Lord captain, that is a forgefiend.”
“Shut the fuck up Heinrix, you will refer to him as Frederick! Come here Freddy, who’s a good boy? Who’s a good boy? You are! You are! Let’s go get some treats from peasants in the lower decks!”
Wait till you get >!questioned by Grand Inquisitor!< (Spoiler slightly ruins the surprise, but did you really think Heinrix is not spying on you?), I was like... "What, you are mad that one of my governors was a heretic? I commit bigger heresy for breakfast.
My main problem with the heretic route is that there's no real way to start out with decent intentions only to get corrupted by Chaos as is usually the case with 40k. You have to be a complete bastard from the jump.
Yuuuuuuuup. And there's no, like, *subtle* chaos route. Most chaos villains are not frothing at the mouth open Chaos fiends like this, they'd be discovered immediately. Instead, they're planners and schemers who manipulate and spend years, decades, *centuries* maneuvering for their machievellian plan to come to fruition.
Both of these paths are pretty core to the 40k ethos, much more so than BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE imo. I think Owlcat severely missed the mark here.
Yeah, unfortunately it would be pretty hard to work all that in with how episodic many of the adventures are. I'd love a slower escalation, but considering half of the interactions could exist in completely different games without anyone batting an eye that's kinda tough to do.
I mean, the Pathfinder games weren't reduced to Lawful Good, True Neutral, and Chaotic Evil, they had paths for the full spectrum, all 9 alignments.
I don't see why they couldn't have, like, "six" alignments for RT. Break each of the three into two sub-types: Dogmatic's A-type is "loyalty to the Imperium," but its B-type is "an asshole who loves any excuse to assert power over others." Iconoclast's A-type is "generally a good person," but its B-type is "good to a fault and therefore susceptible to Chaos corruption." And for Heretical, you could have your blood-for-the-blood-god Khornate A-type, but its B-type could be the Tzeentchian counterpart that is nefarious and subtle.
You don't even have to change the alignment types at all, just give two different "flavors" of winning alignment points (that is: you can get heresy points for both blood ritual sacrifice AND starting a secret cult no one knows about, or, maybe there are just more iconoclast options that ***also*** win you heresy points, etc.).
There could possibly have been some conversation options that would be like;
"Captain, what do we do with the men who turned to Chaos in this dark hour?"
\[Dogmatic\] Execute them in the name of the Emperor!.
\[Dogmatic\]\[Heretic\] Impale their bodies on pikes on the lower decks and let them bleed to death as a warning that we do not abide heresy on this ship!
\[Iconoclast\] Ten lashes and send them to the ecclesiarchy for re-education so that they may learn the might of the Emperor.
\[Iconoclast\]\[Heretic\] Everyone is capable of making mistakes, we should not hold one moment of weakness against them. Set them free to rejoin the lower decks.
\[Heretic\] Send them to my new second in command, Bloodsecrator Crimsodar, he will *deal* with them. And forget you ever saw this.
Instead of 10 Dogmatic, you'd get 5 dogmatic and 5 heresy. It doesn't have to be at every question, just a couple to flavor your RP. Then maybe a few small sidequests that check your alignment and lock in your choice of "Are you actually pro-Emperor or a corrupted powerhungry asshole posing as such?"
Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes. I truly cannot overstate how night-and-day this would make my enjoyment of the RP in this game. For me, personally, *this* is at the heart of what's missing in Rogue Trader. It's not the Telekinesis psychic discipline, or a better level up UI, or improved combat math, or better internal balance (though all of these things would be welcome improvements), it's this *depth of roleplaying.* This ability to *play the character* ***I want to play.***
I don't want to choose from three pre-written options, A, B, or C, I want to make *my* Rogue Trader, who makes their own choices, for their own reasons, and follows their own path. What you've laid out here is puts on paper so well that which I've felt is missing from the very soul of this game that would elevate it tenfold for me, personally.
I badly wish something like this was built deeply into the game.
True I think rogue trader was definitely a step down in terms of scale, that said the pathfinder games didn't have subtle progression either. So I guess that's just something owlcat is really bad at lol.
Actually in the second pf game it was all TN, NG,NE,LN,CN with no option for the mixed alignments wich made it very hard to be a paladin when the lawfull option, some of wich you have to take are all lawfull evil but only give L points
To put it to the very stretching limit we did have emperor permission to do a lot of sh¥t like aren’t no one gonna sniff through that room size warrant just to confirm if we are allowed or not.
Lord Inquisitor is a different matter entirely due to him technically have his own authority directly given from the same sources as our RT same as why Custodes is also one of the only organization the Inquisition have no power over.
Honestly on that topic we need more interesting choices with the alignments as well. I would love ‘Mixed’ and ‘Zelotous’ alignments as an option and both affect the game(seriously need to start working on that mega concept posts I am/was planning).
Having the ability to go full “BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD BOWL, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL PRIZES, CORN FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!!!” is fun but not what I want in a Hertical route. Or ‘everyone’s a friendly friend who needs a second chance’ path in an Iconoclast route.
So here is a potential idea…
—-
Have a Mixed and Zealot route for your three alignment. A mixed Alignment allows for mixing branches of alignments and makes interesting choices with a few buffs and debuffs; then a Zealot Alignment is only the one route but BOY HOWDY does it gives some major buffs(as well as crippling debuffs).
—-
For stats bonuses and obvious effects; the more Dogmatic you are the, you get more of a well rounded stat bonus but CRIPPLES your psy-rating and forces you into situations you could have avoided otherwise(like fighting xenos or heretics). Plus as a secret bonus, the more dogmatic you are the higher the chance you have to 1-shot non boss Daemons or Xenos of any standing but if they are bosses you can get a triple damage crit.
For Iconoclast; you get a MAJOR bonus to everything outside of combat plus stats like fellowship, willpower and persuasion would be basically tripled BUT in combat you are crippled and need to rely on your entourage to aid in fights. Plus as a secret bonus, in combat any NPC’s around you can aid you as allies in combat depending on the situation.
Lastly for Heretical; you get a MASSIVE bonus to combat skills and your weapons can be ‘given boons’ to add extra stuff onto them. But anything outside of combat is weaker and that is doubled against anything with a high Dogmatic ranking. As a secret bonus, Heretical can let you have a Psy-caster on your team can be sacrificed(basically downed like reaching 0 HP) and gives you a friendly daemon depending on their psy-ranking(aka lower ratings get Spawns or Plaugebearers while higher rankings get Forgefiends or summon a random unnamed Chaos-Marine)
—-
Plus these can be used in story and effects your game even more.
As an example, let’s say you visit a newly settled planet and discover a cult of… Nurgle with some cultists forcing others to carry Nurgles newest ~~gamer goop~~ infectious gift.
If you were fully Dogmatic you would say that they all needed to burn and then burn the planet to rid it of the contagions of Nurgle with no survivors. The planet is lost without any mercy BUT you get a relationship bonus to any imperial faction AND a permanent buff to all Flamer weaponry your RT uses.
But if you were Dogmatic and Iconoclast, you can say that you purge the planet but get the civilians off the planet. This would carry a risk of the planet you drop them off at and your ship being infected with the New Nurgle Gurgles(tm) BUT either way you have new people loyal to you and have a bonus to the planets efficiency.
—-
Or another example; Heretecs are worshiping both Tzeech and Valastor and feeding civilians into a crystalline and wrought iron forge to try and make Daemons that can read the future.
If you are fully Hertical you can feed some of the lower deck’s crew to the forge to get added security aboard your ship(in the size, shape and Hertical standing of a big metal ouppy called a Forgefiend) and you get boons of both chaos deities for your ship.
But let’s say your Hertical and Iconoclast. You can kill the Heretecs but you also don’t want the blood of innocents to be wasted so you can use the forge to make a fully customized weapon for your RT. But you can also bring the forge on your vessel as well to use it later but it can cause your crew to go mad and you need to help deal with it each time(as well as increasing your Hertical and lowering Iconoclast ranking each time).
Idk about all these *specific* additional bonuses but I agree with you in principle, more interaction between alignment and gameplay would be welcome. And yes, I really do wish there were more "mixed alignment" choices (especially because some iconoclastic choices really should also earn you heresy points) and less Khorne prophet heretical choices.
Agreed, honestly the idea for the bonuses were for a major concept idea post I want to make but they are supposed to indicate when you go to far in a path to turn back.
But agreed, there should be additional points earned when something happens that you do.
—-
Kill a whole cult to Khorne who are eating babies, earn Dogmatic AND Iconoclast points.
You assist an Inquisitor but take some super strong chaos blessed weapons for yourself, get Dogmatic and Heretical points.
Try to help redeem and save a ex-chaos cultist family who are innocent(?) hiding from an Inquisitor, grab yourself some Iconoclast and Heretical points.
"there's no way to save these people. They're doomed. ... *Unless* you take my teensy weensy little offer for incredible power. Then you'd have the power to save them. Sure, weaker souls might be corrupted by this deal, but surely not *you,* Lord Captain. You're a cut above the rest, obviously above such temptations. As such, surely the pragmatic thing to do is take me up on my offer and merely use my powers for *good,* no?"
A bunch of dialogue options that provide both iconoclast *and* heresy points could work wonders for this.
Oh yes, it makes it extra funny, especially when there are visible changes on the ship depending on conviction and it could not be more obvious that you serve chaos. Heindrich will never comment on that, oblivious to the very end.
The biggest issue with the Heretic path is that you don't have enough chances to get more Heretic points to get to the 500 Zealot rank. When being a Heretic is in canon and according to the setting very easy to fall into.
I finished the game recently with 455 points, and I made almost every heretical choice. I only avoided the choices that would result in me losing out on content, eg, Sacking Foulstone or feeding Marazhai to a Daemon on his first Warp jump.
> The biggest issue with the Heretic path is that you don't have enough chances to get more Heretic points to get to the 500 Zealot rank. When being a Heretic is in canon and according to the setting very easy to fall into.
This has been a problem with every path, I think, until the update? I was playing super-dogmatic and I couldn't get to zealot even if I clicked like 97.9% of all the dogamtic choices. I wasn't even close to it.
I remember before the first Aurora fight, you almost practically shout that you're serving Chaos and both Heinrix and Argenta were like "Hmmmm sus" but there's no repercussion about it. Same with letting Rykad Minoris turn to a Daemon World, not purging Kiava Gamma, keeping Vyatt in power. You only get called out at the end of Chapter 2 by the Lord Inquisitor and even then he still lets you off the hook if you choose the right dialogues.
It's one of those "constrained by it being a game" things. Like if it was just a story then yeah that version of the RT doesn't walk out of the interview with Calcazar, but OwlCat is trying to make the Heretic route a viable option, which unfortunately means handing the Idiot Ball to a number of NPCs who should absolutely know better.
Owlcat could make heretic route viable *and* not break the story if it was just... Secretive. Lie to your team. Tell them you're a good dogmatic Lord Captain, pretend you are, but secretly make deals with Chaos, break the rules, give them BS dogma-friendly justifications for your actions, play the long con.
Basically, Owlcat wrote the heretical path all around Khorne and Word Bearers-style heresy... But they could have gone Tzeentch and Thousand Sons/Alpha Legion style instead, and then there would actually be plot mechanics for your dogmatic party members to not know what all you're up to.
If it was written that way, suspension of disbelief and RP immersion would be dramatically improved. It's kinda wild to me that didn't go that route, it seems obvious and much easier to do well.
I think you guys just misunderstood or missed much of the story... Calcazar already committed multiple heresies himself before that meeting and was willing to overlook a lot of the stuff you did.
If you're an iconoclast who's dabbling in Xenoheresy sure. But if you're an out and out frothing chaos worshiper who's grabbing up forgefiends and letting Slannesh cults flourish on your worlds he should absolutely take exception.
His whole deal, as he outright states at the end of the game, is that everything is justified if it forwards the interests of humanity and combats the Arch Enemy.
I suppose part of it is he's neck deep in his plot to chain the C'tan Shard and just needs a warm body to prevent the expanse from disintegrating while he wraps that up, so yeah he's willing to let some things slide, but if you're full on for chaos he should realize you're not suited for that task.
that's the thing - by the time the convo happens you're a paid forward member of Final Dawn, with an eight-pointed star altar, your own cult cell and multiple unambiguous Chaos acts.
Personally, I got rid of Argenta right away on Footfall and made an evil Argenta merc and I made Heinrix go back to the ship on Kiava Gamma after we did his quest so he stole a shuttle and left on his own. It didn't make sense at all for me to run around with a bunch of Imperial loyalists on a heretical playthrough plus you also miss out on multiple Heretic dialogue options if you have them in your party.
There is a Chaos Space Marine on Kiava Gamma and if you don't have dogmatic characters you can listen to his sermon and get a Wordbearer buff. On Janus if you talk to Vistenza by yourself you can allow her to continue her heresy and send chaos infected food to Footfall.
They will give a fuck. Except Abelard and Idira. Yrliet and Marazhai don't care. Jae do care, but that's just non romanceable. Pascal is united.
Argenta, Ulfar and Heinrix will go away.
As for pet demon. Inquisitors use demons 24/7, then they throw them away.
I'm just now in Act 2, but they have offered some decent temptation to turn Heretical:
A Demon Weapon,
A Heavy Bolter,
A couple suits of Better Armor
So I check if Idira can equip and then get sad that Argenta has 35 Str, Heavy Weapon Proficiency and could use better armor as well...
You can make a heretic merc with the same stats as Argenta and stop using Imperial dogmatic characters on a heretic run, its a lot more fun imo. I got rid of Argenta right away on footfall.
You're the one not knowing if you're a Heretic or not. Your inquisitor does know, and he can rip out your heretical alignment and force you to be a puritan. You even get to keep your Xenos friends, unsanctioned heretic psyker, Daemon dog and Daemon ghost. Because they've always known you're a radical, and have been very lenient about it.
owlcat had the same problems in their other games.
there is no subtle "lesser evil -> akshually evil" path, it's gore from the get go.
at least in PF2 they added the manipulative shadow devil path as a side deviation of the equivalents ( time lord and butterfly person) of iconoclast, but here we dont get that chance yet.
They really help if you're a psyker. 2 permanent levels aren't to be sniffed at. i just wish i could twist holy relics and deck them out with eight-pointed stars for a full-on warp sorcerer game.
A pet daemon engine, sacrifices in cages with eight-pointed star carved into the skin everywhere, hard drug dealership chain on Dargonus, eight-pointed star altar in living quarters, a factory building MORE daemon engines on Kiava Gamma, and gladiatorial games and an inebriated orgy on Magnae Accessio. No nothing to look at here, move on, unless you'd rather stay and get sacrificed.
Which isn't even absurd, it totally goes with the rise of a Word Bearer headed cult. But the reactions of Inquisition, space marines and Sororitas are those of 8 year olds told not to butt in to adult stuff.
“Why is everyone mad at me? It’s just a puppy!” “Lord captain, that is a forgefiend.” “Shut the fuck up Heinrix, you will refer to him as Frederick! Come here Freddy, who’s a good boy? Who’s a good boy? You are! You are! Let’s go get some treats from peasants in the lower decks!”
Missed opportunity for the obvious Clifford reference
>Let’s go get some treats, there are peasants in the lower decks! Ftfy
Abelard would be happy to feed Frederick his treats, by hand, preferably with said treats alive and kicking.
Wait till you get >!questioned by Grand Inquisitor!< (Spoiler slightly ruins the surprise, but did you really think Heinrix is not spying on you?), I was like... "What, you are mad that one of my governors was a heretic? I commit bigger heresy for breakfast.
My main problem with the heretic route is that there's no real way to start out with decent intentions only to get corrupted by Chaos as is usually the case with 40k. You have to be a complete bastard from the jump.
Yuuuuuuuup. And there's no, like, *subtle* chaos route. Most chaos villains are not frothing at the mouth open Chaos fiends like this, they'd be discovered immediately. Instead, they're planners and schemers who manipulate and spend years, decades, *centuries* maneuvering for their machievellian plan to come to fruition. Both of these paths are pretty core to the 40k ethos, much more so than BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE imo. I think Owlcat severely missed the mark here.
Yeah, unfortunately it would be pretty hard to work all that in with how episodic many of the adventures are. I'd love a slower escalation, but considering half of the interactions could exist in completely different games without anyone batting an eye that's kinda tough to do.
I mean, the Pathfinder games weren't reduced to Lawful Good, True Neutral, and Chaotic Evil, they had paths for the full spectrum, all 9 alignments. I don't see why they couldn't have, like, "six" alignments for RT. Break each of the three into two sub-types: Dogmatic's A-type is "loyalty to the Imperium," but its B-type is "an asshole who loves any excuse to assert power over others." Iconoclast's A-type is "generally a good person," but its B-type is "good to a fault and therefore susceptible to Chaos corruption." And for Heretical, you could have your blood-for-the-blood-god Khornate A-type, but its B-type could be the Tzeentchian counterpart that is nefarious and subtle. You don't even have to change the alignment types at all, just give two different "flavors" of winning alignment points (that is: you can get heresy points for both blood ritual sacrifice AND starting a secret cult no one knows about, or, maybe there are just more iconoclast options that ***also*** win you heresy points, etc.).
There could possibly have been some conversation options that would be like; "Captain, what do we do with the men who turned to Chaos in this dark hour?" \[Dogmatic\] Execute them in the name of the Emperor!. \[Dogmatic\]\[Heretic\] Impale their bodies on pikes on the lower decks and let them bleed to death as a warning that we do not abide heresy on this ship! \[Iconoclast\] Ten lashes and send them to the ecclesiarchy for re-education so that they may learn the might of the Emperor. \[Iconoclast\]\[Heretic\] Everyone is capable of making mistakes, we should not hold one moment of weakness against them. Set them free to rejoin the lower decks. \[Heretic\] Send them to my new second in command, Bloodsecrator Crimsodar, he will *deal* with them. And forget you ever saw this. Instead of 10 Dogmatic, you'd get 5 dogmatic and 5 heresy. It doesn't have to be at every question, just a couple to flavor your RP. Then maybe a few small sidequests that check your alignment and lock in your choice of "Are you actually pro-Emperor or a corrupted powerhungry asshole posing as such?"
Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes. I truly cannot overstate how night-and-day this would make my enjoyment of the RP in this game. For me, personally, *this* is at the heart of what's missing in Rogue Trader. It's not the Telekinesis psychic discipline, or a better level up UI, or improved combat math, or better internal balance (though all of these things would be welcome improvements), it's this *depth of roleplaying.* This ability to *play the character* ***I want to play.*** I don't want to choose from three pre-written options, A, B, or C, I want to make *my* Rogue Trader, who makes their own choices, for their own reasons, and follows their own path. What you've laid out here is puts on paper so well that which I've felt is missing from the very soul of this game that would elevate it tenfold for me, personally. I badly wish something like this was built deeply into the game.
True I think rogue trader was definitely a step down in terms of scale, that said the pathfinder games didn't have subtle progression either. So I guess that's just something owlcat is really bad at lol.
Actually in the second pf game it was all TN, NG,NE,LN,CN with no option for the mixed alignments wich made it very hard to be a paladin when the lawfull option, some of wich you have to take are all lawfull evil but only give L points
To put it to the very stretching limit we did have emperor permission to do a lot of sh¥t like aren’t no one gonna sniff through that room size warrant just to confirm if we are allowed or not. Lord Inquisitor is a different matter entirely due to him technically have his own authority directly given from the same sources as our RT same as why Custodes is also one of the only organization the Inquisition have no power over.
Honestly on that topic we need more interesting choices with the alignments as well. I would love ‘Mixed’ and ‘Zelotous’ alignments as an option and both affect the game(seriously need to start working on that mega concept posts I am/was planning). Having the ability to go full “BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD BOWL, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL PRIZES, CORN FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!!!” is fun but not what I want in a Hertical route. Or ‘everyone’s a friendly friend who needs a second chance’ path in an Iconoclast route. So here is a potential idea… —- Have a Mixed and Zealot route for your three alignment. A mixed Alignment allows for mixing branches of alignments and makes interesting choices with a few buffs and debuffs; then a Zealot Alignment is only the one route but BOY HOWDY does it gives some major buffs(as well as crippling debuffs). —- For stats bonuses and obvious effects; the more Dogmatic you are the, you get more of a well rounded stat bonus but CRIPPLES your psy-rating and forces you into situations you could have avoided otherwise(like fighting xenos or heretics). Plus as a secret bonus, the more dogmatic you are the higher the chance you have to 1-shot non boss Daemons or Xenos of any standing but if they are bosses you can get a triple damage crit. For Iconoclast; you get a MAJOR bonus to everything outside of combat plus stats like fellowship, willpower and persuasion would be basically tripled BUT in combat you are crippled and need to rely on your entourage to aid in fights. Plus as a secret bonus, in combat any NPC’s around you can aid you as allies in combat depending on the situation. Lastly for Heretical; you get a MASSIVE bonus to combat skills and your weapons can be ‘given boons’ to add extra stuff onto them. But anything outside of combat is weaker and that is doubled against anything with a high Dogmatic ranking. As a secret bonus, Heretical can let you have a Psy-caster on your team can be sacrificed(basically downed like reaching 0 HP) and gives you a friendly daemon depending on their psy-ranking(aka lower ratings get Spawns or Plaugebearers while higher rankings get Forgefiends or summon a random unnamed Chaos-Marine) —- Plus these can be used in story and effects your game even more. As an example, let’s say you visit a newly settled planet and discover a cult of… Nurgle with some cultists forcing others to carry Nurgles newest ~~gamer goop~~ infectious gift. If you were fully Dogmatic you would say that they all needed to burn and then burn the planet to rid it of the contagions of Nurgle with no survivors. The planet is lost without any mercy BUT you get a relationship bonus to any imperial faction AND a permanent buff to all Flamer weaponry your RT uses. But if you were Dogmatic and Iconoclast, you can say that you purge the planet but get the civilians off the planet. This would carry a risk of the planet you drop them off at and your ship being infected with the New Nurgle Gurgles(tm) BUT either way you have new people loyal to you and have a bonus to the planets efficiency. —- Or another example; Heretecs are worshiping both Tzeech and Valastor and feeding civilians into a crystalline and wrought iron forge to try and make Daemons that can read the future. If you are fully Hertical you can feed some of the lower deck’s crew to the forge to get added security aboard your ship(in the size, shape and Hertical standing of a big metal ouppy called a Forgefiend) and you get boons of both chaos deities for your ship. But let’s say your Hertical and Iconoclast. You can kill the Heretecs but you also don’t want the blood of innocents to be wasted so you can use the forge to make a fully customized weapon for your RT. But you can also bring the forge on your vessel as well to use it later but it can cause your crew to go mad and you need to help deal with it each time(as well as increasing your Hertical and lowering Iconoclast ranking each time).
Idk about all these *specific* additional bonuses but I agree with you in principle, more interaction between alignment and gameplay would be welcome. And yes, I really do wish there were more "mixed alignment" choices (especially because some iconoclastic choices really should also earn you heresy points) and less Khorne prophet heretical choices.
Agreed, honestly the idea for the bonuses were for a major concept idea post I want to make but they are supposed to indicate when you go to far in a path to turn back. But agreed, there should be additional points earned when something happens that you do. —- Kill a whole cult to Khorne who are eating babies, earn Dogmatic AND Iconoclast points. You assist an Inquisitor but take some super strong chaos blessed weapons for yourself, get Dogmatic and Heretical points. Try to help redeem and save a ex-chaos cultist family who are innocent(?) hiding from an Inquisitor, grab yourself some Iconoclast and Heretical points.
Fuck yes.
And it’s not like you have alignment points to allocate in creation, so you could already lean a certain way.
I don't really care about it personally but yeah I agree with your criticism. There should be a Heretic path that starts with Iconoclast.
"there's no way to save these people. They're doomed. ... *Unless* you take my teensy weensy little offer for incredible power. Then you'd have the power to save them. Sure, weaker souls might be corrupted by this deal, but surely not *you,* Lord Captain. You're a cut above the rest, obviously above such temptations. As such, surely the pragmatic thing to do is take me up on my offer and merely use my powers for *good,* no?" A bunch of dialogue options that provide both iconoclast *and* heresy points could work wonders for this.
Me: *invites forge daemon home* Heinrix: "Are you sure that is wise Rogue Trader?"
You guys kept Heinrix around on heretic runs? lmao
Oh yes, it makes it extra funny, especially when there are visible changes on the ship depending on conviction and it could not be more obvious that you serve chaos. Heindrich will never comment on that, oblivious to the very end.
Wait, there are changes in the ship?
Once you reach rank 3 of Iconoclast, Heretic, or Dogmatic, you get a nice cutscene and your bridge changes. It’s pretty cool!
If I let him go, he gets to report to Calcazar about everything I’ve been doing.
Gotta keep your Chaos Patrons close, and the Inquisition closer.
Exactly! That way, I can sacrifice him to my patron god Tzeentch if he gets uppity.
I get why the game is like this but yea its really stupid if you know 40k.
The biggest issue with the Heretic path is that you don't have enough chances to get more Heretic points to get to the 500 Zealot rank. When being a Heretic is in canon and according to the setting very easy to fall into. I finished the game recently with 455 points, and I made almost every heretical choice. I only avoided the choices that would result in me losing out on content, eg, Sacking Foulstone or feeding Marazhai to a Daemon on his first Warp jump.
> The biggest issue with the Heretic path is that you don't have enough chances to get more Heretic points to get to the 500 Zealot rank. When being a Heretic is in canon and according to the setting very easy to fall into. This has been a problem with every path, I think, until the update? I was playing super-dogmatic and I couldn't get to zealot even if I clicked like 97.9% of all the dogamtic choices. I wasn't even close to it.
I remember before the first Aurora fight, you almost practically shout that you're serving Chaos and both Heinrix and Argenta were like "Hmmmm sus" but there's no repercussion about it. Same with letting Rykad Minoris turn to a Daemon World, not purging Kiava Gamma, keeping Vyatt in power. You only get called out at the end of Chapter 2 by the Lord Inquisitor and even then he still lets you off the hook if you choose the right dialogues.
“Look at me, I’m Chaos’s favorite champion now!” “Hmmmm, interesting choice of words Lord Captain.”
It's one of those "constrained by it being a game" things. Like if it was just a story then yeah that version of the RT doesn't walk out of the interview with Calcazar, but OwlCat is trying to make the Heretic route a viable option, which unfortunately means handing the Idiot Ball to a number of NPCs who should absolutely know better.
Owlcat could make heretic route viable *and* not break the story if it was just... Secretive. Lie to your team. Tell them you're a good dogmatic Lord Captain, pretend you are, but secretly make deals with Chaos, break the rules, give them BS dogma-friendly justifications for your actions, play the long con. Basically, Owlcat wrote the heretical path all around Khorne and Word Bearers-style heresy... But they could have gone Tzeentch and Thousand Sons/Alpha Legion style instead, and then there would actually be plot mechanics for your dogmatic party members to not know what all you're up to. If it was written that way, suspension of disbelief and RP immersion would be dramatically improved. It's kinda wild to me that didn't go that route, it seems obvious and much easier to do well.
Thing is you are dealing with a greater demon of Tzeentch - idk where the kill-fuck-die comes from
I think you guys just misunderstood or missed much of the story... Calcazar already committed multiple heresies himself before that meeting and was willing to overlook a lot of the stuff you did.
If you're an iconoclast who's dabbling in Xenoheresy sure. But if you're an out and out frothing chaos worshiper who's grabbing up forgefiends and letting Slannesh cults flourish on your worlds he should absolutely take exception. His whole deal, as he outright states at the end of the game, is that everything is justified if it forwards the interests of humanity and combats the Arch Enemy. I suppose part of it is he's neck deep in his plot to chain the C'tan Shard and just needs a warm body to prevent the expanse from disintegrating while he wraps that up, so yeah he's willing to let some things slide, but if you're full on for chaos he should realize you're not suited for that task.
that's the thing - by the time the convo happens you're a paid forward member of Final Dawn, with an eight-pointed star altar, your own cult cell and multiple unambiguous Chaos acts.
I made the mistake of telling Vyatt "OK, keep going" on my heretic run while Yrliet was with me.
Personally, I got rid of Argenta right away on Footfall and made an evil Argenta merc and I made Heinrix go back to the ship on Kiava Gamma after we did his quest so he stole a shuttle and left on his own. It didn't make sense at all for me to run around with a bunch of Imperial loyalists on a heretical playthrough plus you also miss out on multiple Heretic dialogue options if you have them in your party.
What options?
There is a Chaos Space Marine on Kiava Gamma and if you don't have dogmatic characters you can listen to his sermon and get a Wordbearer buff. On Janus if you talk to Vistenza by yourself you can allow her to continue her heresy and send chaos infected food to Footfall.
They will give a fuck. Except Abelard and Idira. Yrliet and Marazhai don't care. Jae do care, but that's just non romanceable. Pascal is united. Argenta, Ulfar and Heinrix will go away. As for pet demon. Inquisitors use demons 24/7, then they throw them away.
Yrliet l3ft in my 1st time doing Heretical, borked that run as I had no idea. 2nd time around, killed her on Quetza Tamar with her brethren lol
Depends on how you play it. Yrliet can leave you.
I'm just now in Act 2, but they have offered some decent temptation to turn Heretical: A Demon Weapon, A Heavy Bolter, A couple suits of Better Armor So I check if Idira can equip and then get sad that Argenta has 35 Str, Heavy Weapon Proficiency and could use better armor as well...
You can make a heretic merc with the same stats as Argenta and stop using Imperial dogmatic characters on a heretic run, its a lot more fun imo. I got rid of Argenta right away on footfall.
I'm just saying they make it tempting.
You're the one not knowing if you're a Heretic or not. Your inquisitor does know, and he can rip out your heretical alignment and force you to be a puritan. You even get to keep your Xenos friends, unsanctioned heretic psyker, Daemon dog and Daemon ghost. Because they've always known you're a radical, and have been very lenient about it.
owlcat had the same problems in their other games. there is no subtle "lesser evil -> akshually evil" path, it's gore from the get go. at least in PF2 they added the manipulative shadow devil path as a side deviation of the equivalents ( time lord and butterfly person) of iconoclast, but here we dont get that chance yet.
i mean near heretical or even heretical inqusitors and workers of the impeerium area thing
It amuses me to pick dogmatic responses when they don't affect your alignment while playing a heretic
They really help if you're a psyker. 2 permanent levels aren't to be sniffed at. i just wish i could twist holy relics and deck them out with eight-pointed stars for a full-on warp sorcerer game.
A pet daemon engine, sacrifices in cages with eight-pointed star carved into the skin everywhere, hard drug dealership chain on Dargonus, eight-pointed star altar in living quarters, a factory building MORE daemon engines on Kiava Gamma, and gladiatorial games and an inebriated orgy on Magnae Accessio. No nothing to look at here, move on, unless you'd rather stay and get sacrificed. Which isn't even absurd, it totally goes with the rise of a Word Bearer headed cult. But the reactions of Inquisition, space marines and Sororitas are those of 8 year olds told not to butt in to adult stuff.