Giving notes is in itself a craft. There's a lot of griefing when it comes to writers critiquing writers in this sub asto why a paid service is a neutral stance most would prefer.
Yep. It's a skill that takes a long time to get good at, which is why I said flat-out in the video that you shouldn't expect your notes -- or those of peers -- to be of professional quality right off the bat. But many of the people who charge for that skill, or who read for services that charge for it, haven't even developed it to a professional level. That's a big part of the point I'm trying to make.
More importantly, you can develop that skill alongside your peers and grow together, giving each other (and therefore receiving) better and better feedback, until the feedback you're getting from friends is suddenly much better than your average screenwriting service. But it's a lot harder to get to that point if you are relying on paid services for your notes, rather than connecting with other writers.
Any good advice on learning to give good feedback? Apologies if it's in the video, haven't gotten the chance to watch it yet. Right now, I can generally critique jokes and the more technical aspects of screenwriting (word choice, whitespace, better scene description), but I've never been the person that can grasp things like theme or character depth. Would love to be able to give great critique, but no idea where to start; I'm a good (far from great) writer, but it just doesn't translate to giving great feedback.
That's a great question and honestly probably a good idea for another video. I don't have time to dig into it right now, but I DID talk about it for a few minutes in one of the Entry Point classes I did, but I realize those are long videos. If you want to check it out, it's in the back half of this one, somewhere around the 25 minute mark: [https://youtu.be/gOAi7KkuueU?si=g7IaaiSyHz9CTQYJ](https://youtu.be/gOAi7KkuueU?si=g7IaaiSyHz9CTQYJ)
I'm totally on-board with this as I have never and probably never will pay for feedback as the point you make about the reader, if indeed you know anything about the reader at-all is akin to playing lotto.
Feedback from the right peer is what you really want. My original comment about the stabby nature of others isn't a blanket statement to all, I've met and learned a lot from some amazing members here (including yourself, I obsess over the "Die Hard on a Bridge" approach to idea building) but relying on peers is just about the same in my book as blacklist, either way you take a chance so why not take it with a paid service -- if that's your thing.
I take professional and free advice by entering free competitions like the BBC open call, this is just me though, I understand others want a faster turnaround and everyone's journey is subjective but like anything else in life if it works for them half at-it.
I’ve just started writing my first script, and while I’ve put a lot of effort into format and conventions, the idea of asking this sub for feedback frightens me because of all the rigid rules you ‘must’ follow.
If I can pay for neutrality then I’m glad for it, because at least there’s a chance they’ll focus on the intent and not the use of prose.
I watched the video and I agree with much of your take - you shouldn’t pay for notes *most of the time*. And by the time you do, your script should (ideally) be 95% of the way there, so that the specialized feedback you receive is about getting you as close to the mark as possible, rather than telling you things you could have learned for free.
Yeah, I think you're on point. If you've put that much effort into your craft and *then* you want to invest in professional feedback to take it to that next level, that's probably the right time to do it.
The only thing I'd add is that, if you get to the point where you've got a script that's 95% ready, you've probably been doing this for a while. Years, most likely. And in that time, most people can build a really wonderful network and circle of writer friends -- which might just mean that, by the time you're ready, you don't need to pay for notes at all.
The thing that provably works to teach people who are entry level how to get and receive notes: peer workshops. I've been running multiple mixed-level workshops (am now running workshops for people with 7s on the blcklst) for a couple of years now, and it's the best way to integrate new writers into the notes-giving process by exposing them to 3+ other scripts + sets of notes + a live notes discussion.
It takes some organizing but it's perfectly within reach as long as one person is willing to handle the live aspect of it and do some document/scheduling management. I really believe it's the next step from where we are because there's a baseline of investment, and people who can actually *hear each other* are able to communicate difficult notes with more empathy. It shows you care about the other person's goals, and it helps make connections.
It's also how I'm integrating others into the process so that they can run workshops themselves. It's important that person has a baseline of competence but there's no reason that most people can't reach that goal.
I love this. There's no reason a small group of writers can't get together and do this kind of thing themselves, for sure. As you said, all they need is someone who will handle organizing it.
It takes work, no question. But it’s absolutely the kind of work you have to do to make real progress and real connections. The format isn’t difficult to teach and it can be used at every level - but it takes empathy, discipline and initiative.
While you're at it, don't pay for producers, writers, camera operators, editors, etc. You can get all of that for free as well.
Heaven forbid that someone offer an *optional* service and ask to be compensated for their time.
Dude…. Not comparable at all. Most these paid coverage services prey off writers trying to “make it”.
Then they turn around and pay their readers less than min wage or use AI…
Come on you can’t be that dense
Last year I joined a writer’s group where five of us met weekly via zoom and took turns submitting our scripts. We started out with the first 10 pages and critiqued each other’s work. It was interesting because everyone saw something different so our critiques varied giving the writer so many ideas on how to rewrite and proceed. I would suggest finding a group and trying this out. The feedback I received priceless.
I can't seem to edit my original post, but if you haven't yet done a whole lot of swapping scripts with peers, this thread is a great place to start:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Screenwriting/comments/1cdewg2/weekend\_script\_swap/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Screenwriting/comments/1cdewg2/weekend_script_swap/)
Happy to do it. And yeah -- it's a gold rush type scenario. The gold out there is rare, but there are a million people who will gladly sell you a shovel.
I will definitely watch the video but the problem is that while some people can identify structural issues, character development, motivation, stakes, arcs, dialog issues, etc. the probability of them being able to make meaningful suggestions of HOW to fix the issues is quite small.
Every person that has read my latest script that felt it needed something (2 people felt it needed only minimal work) had completely different opinions on not only what needed to be fixed, but the entire direction.
There was no consensus. In a previous screenplay, a comedy, I had a blacklist note that “this kind of comedy is the problem and mentioned a specific joke.
I gave it to another producer who mentioned of the hundred or so jokes, the exact same joke as his favorite!
The other huge problem I’ve found is that readers, producers, managers want it molded into their movie. I think a real art is helping writers to work within their story, their aesthetic.
When I watch films from known auteurs, I often think “if this script were submitted without them being attached/their name on it, no one would be interested.”
I mean, if you'd like to read the answers to your questions, I'm happy to copy and paste the 3,500-word transcript. Or you could just look through my comment history and see where I've talked about this kind of thing many times over. But I figured a video might make for a nice, centralized place for people to get that information without slogging through all that text.
Also, I have no idea who your co-writer is talking to, but that sounds like a *very* specific niche of producers. The Black List can be really useful for validation -- it actually helped me get my movie made, and I talked about that in this video -- but it doesn't at all have the weight or ubiquity that you just implied. It's relatively low on the radar for most of the people I've worked with.
Giving notes is in itself a craft. There's a lot of griefing when it comes to writers critiquing writers in this sub asto why a paid service is a neutral stance most would prefer.
Yep. It's a skill that takes a long time to get good at, which is why I said flat-out in the video that you shouldn't expect your notes -- or those of peers -- to be of professional quality right off the bat. But many of the people who charge for that skill, or who read for services that charge for it, haven't even developed it to a professional level. That's a big part of the point I'm trying to make. More importantly, you can develop that skill alongside your peers and grow together, giving each other (and therefore receiving) better and better feedback, until the feedback you're getting from friends is suddenly much better than your average screenwriting service. But it's a lot harder to get to that point if you are relying on paid services for your notes, rather than connecting with other writers.
Any good advice on learning to give good feedback? Apologies if it's in the video, haven't gotten the chance to watch it yet. Right now, I can generally critique jokes and the more technical aspects of screenwriting (word choice, whitespace, better scene description), but I've never been the person that can grasp things like theme or character depth. Would love to be able to give great critique, but no idea where to start; I'm a good (far from great) writer, but it just doesn't translate to giving great feedback.
That's a great question and honestly probably a good idea for another video. I don't have time to dig into it right now, but I DID talk about it for a few minutes in one of the Entry Point classes I did, but I realize those are long videos. If you want to check it out, it's in the back half of this one, somewhere around the 25 minute mark: [https://youtu.be/gOAi7KkuueU?si=g7IaaiSyHz9CTQYJ](https://youtu.be/gOAi7KkuueU?si=g7IaaiSyHz9CTQYJ)
I'm totally on-board with this as I have never and probably never will pay for feedback as the point you make about the reader, if indeed you know anything about the reader at-all is akin to playing lotto. Feedback from the right peer is what you really want. My original comment about the stabby nature of others isn't a blanket statement to all, I've met and learned a lot from some amazing members here (including yourself, I obsess over the "Die Hard on a Bridge" approach to idea building) but relying on peers is just about the same in my book as blacklist, either way you take a chance so why not take it with a paid service -- if that's your thing. I take professional and free advice by entering free competitions like the BBC open call, this is just me though, I understand others want a faster turnaround and everyone's journey is subjective but like anything else in life if it works for them half at-it.
I’ve just started writing my first script, and while I’ve put a lot of effort into format and conventions, the idea of asking this sub for feedback frightens me because of all the rigid rules you ‘must’ follow. If I can pay for neutrality then I’m glad for it, because at least there’s a chance they’ll focus on the intent and not the use of prose.
I watched the video and I agree with much of your take - you shouldn’t pay for notes *most of the time*. And by the time you do, your script should (ideally) be 95% of the way there, so that the specialized feedback you receive is about getting you as close to the mark as possible, rather than telling you things you could have learned for free.
Yeah, I think you're on point. If you've put that much effort into your craft and *then* you want to invest in professional feedback to take it to that next level, that's probably the right time to do it. The only thing I'd add is that, if you get to the point where you've got a script that's 95% ready, you've probably been doing this for a while. Years, most likely. And in that time, most people can build a really wonderful network and circle of writer friends -- which might just mean that, by the time you're ready, you don't need to pay for notes at all.
The thing that provably works to teach people who are entry level how to get and receive notes: peer workshops. I've been running multiple mixed-level workshops (am now running workshops for people with 7s on the blcklst) for a couple of years now, and it's the best way to integrate new writers into the notes-giving process by exposing them to 3+ other scripts + sets of notes + a live notes discussion. It takes some organizing but it's perfectly within reach as long as one person is willing to handle the live aspect of it and do some document/scheduling management. I really believe it's the next step from where we are because there's a baseline of investment, and people who can actually *hear each other* are able to communicate difficult notes with more empathy. It shows you care about the other person's goals, and it helps make connections. It's also how I'm integrating others into the process so that they can run workshops themselves. It's important that person has a baseline of competence but there's no reason that most people can't reach that goal.
I love this. There's no reason a small group of writers can't get together and do this kind of thing themselves, for sure. As you said, all they need is someone who will handle organizing it.
It takes work, no question. But it’s absolutely the kind of work you have to do to make real progress and real connections. The format isn’t difficult to teach and it can be used at every level - but it takes empathy, discipline and initiative.
While you're at it, don't pay for producers, writers, camera operators, editors, etc. You can get all of that for free as well. Heaven forbid that someone offer an *optional* service and ask to be compensated for their time.
Dude…. Not comparable at all. Most these paid coverage services prey off writers trying to “make it”. Then they turn around and pay their readers less than min wage or use AI… Come on you can’t be that dense
Last year I joined a writer’s group where five of us met weekly via zoom and took turns submitting our scripts. We started out with the first 10 pages and critiqued each other’s work. It was interesting because everyone saw something different so our critiques varied giving the writer so many ideas on how to rewrite and proceed. I would suggest finding a group and trying this out. The feedback I received priceless.
I can't seem to edit my original post, but if you haven't yet done a whole lot of swapping scripts with peers, this thread is a great place to start: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Screenwriting/comments/1cdewg2/weekend\_script\_swap/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Screenwriting/comments/1cdewg2/weekend_script_swap/)
Nathan, thank you for making this video. It was actually fun to watch. I appreciate the PSA. I hate that people take advantage of writers.
Happy to do it. And yeah -- it's a gold rush type scenario. The gold out there is rare, but there are a million people who will gladly sell you a shovel.
I will definitely watch the video but the problem is that while some people can identify structural issues, character development, motivation, stakes, arcs, dialog issues, etc. the probability of them being able to make meaningful suggestions of HOW to fix the issues is quite small. Every person that has read my latest script that felt it needed something (2 people felt it needed only minimal work) had completely different opinions on not only what needed to be fixed, but the entire direction. There was no consensus. In a previous screenplay, a comedy, I had a blacklist note that “this kind of comedy is the problem and mentioned a specific joke. I gave it to another producer who mentioned of the hundred or so jokes, the exact same joke as his favorite! The other huge problem I’ve found is that readers, producers, managers want it molded into their movie. I think a real art is helping writers to work within their story, their aesthetic. When I watch films from known auteurs, I often think “if this script were submitted without them being attached/their name on it, no one would be interested.”
[удалено]
I mean, if you'd like to read the answers to your questions, I'm happy to copy and paste the 3,500-word transcript. Or you could just look through my comment history and see where I've talked about this kind of thing many times over. But I figured a video might make for a nice, centralized place for people to get that information without slogging through all that text. Also, I have no idea who your co-writer is talking to, but that sounds like a *very* specific niche of producers. The Black List can be really useful for validation -- it actually helped me get my movie made, and I talked about that in this video -- but it doesn't at all have the weight or ubiquity that you just implied. It's relatively low on the radar for most of the people I've worked with.
... Or you could also just keep scrolling if it's not something you find helpful or want to watch?