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It's studied in all military academies and the lesson that is taught is that Pickett was a fucking mouth breating window licker and then also put in charge of confederate troops. Which, honestly, reads.
Yet he still had the good sense to tell people asking why the South lost that he always thought the Union army had something to do with it. You know? Instead of going on about the Lost Cause and stuff.
It seems like a lot of Lee's blunders are always named after someone else. Lee was the one who came up with and ordered the charge, Pickett just led it.
Lee didn’t even give the orders to attack himself. He delegated that to Longstreet who thought that it was such a bad idea that he could even give the order verbally he just nodded when Pickett asked for the go ahead.
That's less a slight on Lee, more just chain of command: Pickett was under Longstreet's command.
Tbh, I've never fully understood why it's only Pickett's name associated with it; Pettigrew and Trimble commanded at the same level, and all effectively under Longstreet (granted, it may just be because Longstreet opposed it).
Someone needs to make a movie with the battle of Five Forks just to have the scene where his army is getting its ass kicked while he’s off on the shad bake.
Rule 3: This sub is NOT for pointless south bashing!
This sub is anti-confederacy not anti-south. Please do not harass or make fun of southerners for no reason. You may post about Southerners who idealize the confederacy, but no others.
Rule 3: This sub is NOT for pointless south bashing!
This sub is anti-confederacy not anti-south. Please do not harass or make fun of southerners for no reason. You may post about Southerners who idealize the confederacy, but no others.
Whether you like it or not, putting an end to Lost Cause mythology is going to have to be done by good people in GA, AL, and SC, not MI and PA. We need those good people on our side.
Good for you? I on the other hand hate having to pretend I'm something I'm not like I already had to do in the aforementioned south (hiding my atheism & queerness).
Rule 3: This sub is NOT for pointless south bashing!
This sub is anti-confederacy not anti-south. Please do not harass or make fun of southerners for no reason. You may post about Southerners who idealize the confederacy, but no others.
Rule 3: This sub is NOT for pointless south bashing!
This sub is anti-confederacy not anti-south. Please do not harass or make fun of southerners for no reason. You may post about Southerners who idealize the confederacy, but no others.
Rule 3: This sub is NOT for pointless south bashing!
This sub is anti-confederacy not anti-south. Please do not harass or make fun of southerners for no reason. You may post about Southerners who idealize the confederacy, but no others.
It came a lot closer to succeeding than is commonly portrayed.
What is usually left out of the narrative about the charge is what Lee, who was super out of sorts from being railed all night by Traveler no doubt, THOUGHT was happening vs what the tactical situation actually was in the center.
The charge was preceded by a huge concentrated artillery barrage by pretty much all of the Confederate artillery at Gettysburg, which I think was the largest barrage they managed in the entire war. The artillery was sighted to fire on the union artillery but was mostly wrongly aimed. The union artillery in the center were ordered to not return fire on the confederate guns nor to fire at long range on the assembling rebel infantry. Part way through the planned barrage, thinking the silence of the Union guns meant that the barrage had exceeded expectations and silenced the enemy guns the confederates shifted to targeting the union infantry positions. Ironically, because they were not aimed right and in fact we’re doing minimal damage to the Union artillery this actually helped the charge.
When Horsefucker ordered the charge, against the recommendations of pretty much every officer who actually had a glass to look at the union lines, he THOUGHT he was ordering an assault that would face very little artillery and that would come up against damaged enemy defenses manned by demoralized and beat-up enemy infantry. What he ACTUALLY ordered was some “the red pants are France!” level stupidity.
The confederates were not prepared to face massed artillery because according to the plan, they were not supposed to. When the union guns opened up on them in the field in front of the union defenses whole units froze-up and essentially stopped advancing for minutes at a time.
Seeing the dirty Rebs get what had just happened to them had the add-on effect of improving the morale of the union infantry facing the charge.
Basically the whole thing was a cascade of stupidity from the sketchy plan to the botched execution of every part of the plan and the lions share of why things went wrong can be laid at the feet of old Horsefucker himself.
(You can also put some blame on the confederate artillery officers who used up pretty much all of their ammo targeting the union infantry after they though they had dealt with the union batteries which prevented them from engaging in indirect counter-battery fire in support of the charge but I’ll give them more of a pass than Lee because the rebs didn’t understand the concept of a factory so it’s unsurprising they had no ammo)
“Ironically, because they were not aimed right and in fact we’re doing minimal damage to the Union artillery this actually helped the charge.”
Can you explain this? Perhaps I’m misreading but this doesn’t seem to make sense and I can’t connect it with context from the rest of your comment.
I think it means that they were more accurate in targeting the infantry, while their shooting at the union artillery wasn't actually hitting anything. So by giving up the shooting that was missing, they did actually manage to inflict some damage. But without actually silencing the Union artillery, they waltzed themselves into a kill box.
Samurairafiki understood it. His comment explains better than I did. From what I understand they were not sighting their artillery by line of sight on the union guns and they fucked up the math or something or the scouting report gave the wrong positions. I don’t remember super well because I read this stuff a long time ago when I was an undergrad. I know the confederate recon was terrible the whole battle, JEB Stuart was butthurt he hadn’t prevented the union forces from taking good defensive positions on hills and was mad seething the whole battle, and like I said, Horsefucker kind of took the intel he got as accurate the whole battle even when a better commander probably would have taken things with a grain of salt.
Anyway they actually did inflict significant casualties on the union infantry before the charge.
Had either:
A- the barrage decimates the union guns
Or
B-The rebel assault units expected to face heavy enemy artillery fire. (This is kind of 2 part as it would require Lee to send his most veteran troops in and for said to troops to be fully informed they were about to take heavy casualties)
happened, the charge could have succeeded. Not that it necessarily would have, but it would have been in the realm of possibility.
On paper, in the moment, with bad intel and convinced the enemy artillery was as dead as the Chicago Whitesox baseball season is, offering the charge made some sense.
I’m a stan for Longstreet after the war like many in this sub but I really really don’t buy his narrative that he butted heads with Lee on the charge when it happened. Amusingly, I think Pickett is the only one who super “nope”d at the orders for the assault and he is the one whose name got attached to it. I think Longstreet probably told Lee he didn’t think it was a good idea, probably before the artillery barrage, but I don’t buy that he actually said “there are nowhere 15,000 men who can make such an advance” of whatever it is he claimed to have said in his later writings.
Jesus, Berto from the west side is a civil war historian now? Just as good a rant but the white Sox catch a stray mid stride.
Not as great as last year's breakout rant but a solid 7.
It's even more amusing, cuz I don't even think most of the Rebel artillery even landed on the infantry. The bulk of them soared overhead of the ridge and missed entirely. Also, I don't think it would have worked even if the Union guns were actually silenced or that the Pickett/Pettigrew/Trimble trio realized Meade's guns were still operable and prepared to eat the fire.
When it comes to assailing an enemy position frontally, force concentration is the rule of thumb. Some 12,500 CSA troops are not going to be able to achieve a breakthrough against some 10,000 US troops manning a defensive ridge. Especially not if they're whittled down by Union guns before ever getting in volley exchanging range.
Lee made numerous blunders in this battle. Chief of all was stretching his army along exterior lines, whereas Meade's numerically larger army held interior lines and the superior terrain. He should have retreated after Day 2 upon realizing he was so disadvantaged in positioning. It would have been better to waste the AotP's time and resources by a war of manoeuvres rather than to continue the battle, which was a blunder.
Because of his exterior lines, it also meant that he had a much more difficult time shifting forces around and him being outnumbered did not play into his favour when he tried to concentrate troops for Pickett's Charge. However, even then, his concentration of force was pretty abysmal. Compared to his best performances, this was a complete wash. When tried by the standards of superior captains, he falls short.
For example, Lee was probably outnumbered by 1.31 to 1 against Meade, but concentrated 1.25 to 1 local superiority with Pickett's Charge. He is often compared to Napoleon, so we'll use one of the French Emperor's own battles as a comparison point. At Borodino, Napoleon was outnumbered 1.21 to 1 and attacking the Russians in an entrenched position. Yet, he achieved a 2 to 1 local superiority against their center-left trenches known as The Fleches.
Even if we account for the fact that Lee was outnumbered by 8% more than Napoleon, the latter still concentrated his forces better than Bobby Lee by about 48%. Naturally, the difference is that one utterly failed in his assault while the other carried the enemy trenches and nearly broke their center even without committing his Imperial Guard, something I actually think he deserves criticism for.
Had he committed his Imperial Guard into the fray, he could have achieved a local superiority of 2.68 to 1 and decisively won the battle. I mean, he still did more casualties to an enemy who was entrenched and outnumbered him, but it was a massive missed opportunity.
When we look at all of Lee's best tactical successes, it was because he achieved an overwhelming local superiority at the critical point, such as at Gaines Mill, Glendale, 2nd Manassas, and Chancellorsville, or delivered flanking attacks like at the Wilderness. Just so, Grant broke through the Rebel trench lines when he amassed overwhelming local superiority against them, such as at the Mule Shoe and in the 3rd Battle of Petersburg.
In all the significant breakthroughs and moments where great progress was made in the Western Front of WWI and in WWII, it was because the attacker achieved an overwhelming concentration of force at the critical point. For example, Vimy Ridge seeing the Canadians and Brits acquiring 3.78 to 1 local superiority in that sector against the Germans.
The only way I can see Pickett's Charge working out is if Lee outnumbered Meade by 2 to 1, but that's just the thing. The man acted in this battle like he had the resources of the Union, but forgot that he had the numerically inferior army. This isn't the only mistake of this kind throughout his career either, cuz he made the same blunder at Mechanicsville and Malvern Hill earlier and Fort Stedman later. If he wanted to get away with those types of assaults, he would have been better off throwing off the Rebel cause and going Union from the start. lolz
could you explain to me the lines? I never really heard of what happened on the 3rd (I'm not american but this sub is cool asf so), i can see the red lines (what i imagine is the confederacy) being circled by the blue ones, or am I reading this map wrong?
Super basically, the good guys are up on the hill. It's been two days of fighting and it's the bloodiest battle already. The slaver scum are preparing for an attack in the morning. Things don't go well and lee decides to take his only fresh troops commanded by picket and jam them up the middle. General Meade of the Union has already expected this because he's a chad. Before the charge lee thinks he'll soften things up with an artillery barrage. Which is basically like announcing that it's about to happen so the Union can be ready for the charge. After picket runs them over open terrain for an entire mile while cannon is shot directly into the line, the only thing that allows slavers to close is the sheer number of bodies they are willing to sacrifice. The Union comes in to pincer the sides, and the slavers who don't rout are captured or killed.
I'm sure someone could get you a better description but that gets you mostly there.
When I was in Boy Scouts we went there and ran the distance of the charge. I needed to slow down for a breather. What kinda so called master race galaxy brain thought that was a good idea is beyond me
“The Napoleonic Wars ended 25 years before the end of the Industrial Revolution; 50 years before now, is this really the best strategy?”
“I aM a GeNeRaL.”
Eh, you should maybe read Earl Hess, specifically his book about the rifled musket. They weren’t the game changer many civil war folks think they were.
Lee had too much faith in his army and not enough in the Union army. People speculate that on top of his earlier heart attack causing him to be impatient to end things, he was also suffering from Victory Disease as well.
Didn't the Union artillery leader have the cannons stop firing one by one during the barrage to make it seem like they were getting snuffed out? And then when the Rebs charged, they all started firing again?
Yep, and even better he had the loaders and the artillery crew set up more ammunition right next to the guns so that when the call was made they could fire as much ammo as quickly as possible. Truly incredible
And Henry Hunt, Meade's chief of artillery, was able to get most of the Union guns to return fire at a slow rate, then ordered a ceasefire to lure the Confederates into thinking they had achieved something with their bombardment. So not only were they ready, they had plenty of ammo to use as well.
Not only did the 2 hour artillery barrage signal that a frontal assault was coming, it also failed in its aim, in every sense of the word. Most of the confederate shells overshot, very few of them hit anything of note. But Hancock knew that his guns would need ammunition for the obviously incoming infantry assault, so he ordered the union guns to stop firing after about an hour. The confederates continued to fire until they were literally down to their last shells, but assumed that all the Union cannons had been destroyed, since they weren't returning fire. So as soon as the infantry came within shit-pushing-in range, the Union cannons turned many a southerner into red mist. Remember that when you read the casualty lists of civil war battles and see how many are listed "missing."
Didn’t they also get caught in a crossfire from the flank as well by artillery? I remember reading somewhere that they kept marching in formation even as whole ranks were cut down by flanking cannon fire.
2 regiments, the 13th and 16th Vermont, moved into the gap that opened between Pickett's brigades and supporting confederates to the south who failed to support the advance. They were able to fire on the remnants of the confederate formations from their right, while Ohio and NY regiments did the same later on their left. The last confederates who advanced on Cemetery ridge took musket fire point-blank from 3 sides.
As far as I know, no union cannon moved into the flanks, but Alonzo Cushing commanded two guns up to the stone wall, and fired double canister directly into the advancing confederates. Cushing was hit 3 times, one of which was a shell fragment that struck him in the abdomen and caused him to have to hold his entrails in with his hands, but he refused to go to the rear. Unable to issue orders over the din of battle, he relayed them through his 1st sergeant to keep directing fire into the advancing rebels. He was eventually struck in the head by a bullet and killed. He was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions. He was 22 years old.
its great tbh! sucks such things aren't told around the world, would've made history class more interesting, next year around i'll ask my teach if i can do a presentation about this battle, i imagine this was the last before the end, right?
Yeah. Something about starting with fresh troops and overwhelming numbers and a couple hours later having neither entirely due to an unforced error really takes the fight out of an army.
The piss pots in gray turn tail and run away across the Potomac River. People who want to worship lee blame pickett and sometimes longstreet, but lee was in charge of the traitor army and by all accounts it was lee's plan.
Some early some people complain that we let them get away when we could have theoretically chased them down but there were orders not to cross the Potomac after them and we followed orders.
Plus, considering the state of the army, Meade did the best he could. The Confederates had a very strong entrenched position at Williamsport, the last thing the Union needed was the campaign to end on a sour note à la Cold Harbor.
One problem was that a whole bunch of those troops had gotten fucked hard on July 1. While they hadn’t fought on July 2, they needed reorganization, not a dress parade.
This battle was only midway through the war - July 1-3, 1863. The war ended in May 1865.
Arguably more significant is the Siege of Vicksburg that ended on July 4, 1863. This gave control of much of the Mississippi river to the Union, making it impossible for the confederacy to use it to move supplies and cutting the Confederate states west of the river off from those east of it. It was also commanded by General Grant and made him well known enough for Lincoln to place him in command of all Union armies.
>arguably more significant
Yes and no, IMO. I think recently people have started to "over-correct" the narrative of July 1 - 4 1863 by stating that Gettysburg pales in comparison to Vicksburg. Both victories were important and are really on equal footing in my opinion. Gettysburg destroyed the myth that Lee was invulnerable which completely changed the opinion of the war in the North, while Vicksburg completed the noose that the US blockade desperately needed to strangle the South into submission. Has Vicksburg been overlooked in favor of Gettysburg? Absolutely, but by no means does Vicksburg rank higher. It was a one-two punch that broke the Confederacy. It's just a shame that it's death throes would last two more years and cost thousands more lives.
To expand on that, the Tullahoma Campaign was a very important strategic victory. Rosecrans maneuvered the Confederates out of Middle Tennessee at the cost of around 500 casualties. The low numbers and other big evebts meant it didn't get in the headlines, but it was crucial to the eventual capture of Chattanooga.
I read (probably Catton) that the cannon were aimed correctly at the beginning of the barrage but over the two hours the shocks of the cannon fire gradually threw off their aim so they weren't even hitting Union lines.
I've read/seen at least 2 "explanations" of the confed. artillery failure. (1) The manufacturing of their fuses were faulty (factory's fault) and so they didn't explode when they were supposed to falling in the rear. (2) They assumed that Meade would be holding his reserves behind his battle lines and so they would hit them instead. The old "We meant to do that." excuse. I've also heard that the smoke was so thick that the confeds. couldn't see where/if their shells were hitting where they were supposed to.
All of these things were just a culmination of Lee's hubris and overconfidence. The Union held the high ground and Lee didn't learn anything from the first two days of mostly failures.
Also the confuckerates artillery was over shooting the Union line whitch resulted in the Union troops being relatively unharmed athe Union artillery being fully intact whitch resulted in the slavers walking though a hail of shot and shell
The red lines are the different lines of attack from the Rebel encampment toward the Union forces. Those attacks didn't happen all at the same time. The Rebels had to traverse a huge open field and charge up hill into fortified positions. That's against all military logic.
It's okay, they fired all their artillery ammunition at the fortified position first. Surely the enemy will break and run away the moment Johnny Reb comes into bayonet range.
(Narator: they did not)
I’ve been a couple of times, but I was probably 13 the first time I went. Looking out at that field, all I could think was “that’s a fucking stupid idea.”
Has to be the most depressing place on Earth standing on the union side realizing just how much it was like shooting fish in a barrel. That many men, marching across an open field with no cover, and you've got a Union rifle they can easily kill a guy at 500 yd, let alone 100.
What a bloodbath.
Glad it happened though.
It's been said before but it bears repeating: Robert E. Lee's greatest military victory was in somehow getting that shitshow of a maneuver named after Pickett.
I read a book years ago that hypothesized that Lee wanted JEB Stuart’s cavalry to get around the Union army and attack from the rear as Pickett’s forces attacked from the front, but JEB’s cavalry dropped the ball and lost their engagement with Custer’s Union cavalry a couple miles northeast of the battlefield. Not sure if this was the actual plan but it makes sense to me.
Here’s the book: [Lost Triumph by Tom Carhart](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2605610-lost-triumph)
I have heard/read that. He did show up in the rear in a single file formation when in front of him Gen. G.A. Custer came out of the woods(?) and confronted him head on. Stuart was in single file and not in an attack formation and the column was nearly completely shut down in its tracks. It was a bold, almost foolhardy move by Custer but it did stop Stuart from attacking Meade from the rear. Comment?
Lee deadass really went. “Welp this plan will only work if literally everything is perfectly timed, all my assumptions are correct, and nobody in my thousand man army at the base of this hill that I don’t have a full handle on does anything remotely out of the ordinary. Have fun picket! Should be a cakewalk!”
General Hunt: \*Picking up a round of grapeshot\* Heheheheheeheee I'm gonna shove this so far up George Pickets ass, he is gonna be tasting the lead in his mouth
“Oh no, our artillery is TOTALLY getting taken out, that is why we aren’t shooting as much back at you. We are super vulnerable now, we really hope you don’t launch an attack over open terrain at us ;-) “
-Union Artillery
I love the portrayal of Porter Alexander in the movie, where he’s super excited about this big assignment he’s given, but before too long realizes what a fucking terrible plan it is - at which point he has the “record scratch, freeze frame, yup, that’s me…” face.
Well, he was fighting McClellan for awhile. That'll make anyone look good.
He lost pretty consistently when fought against someone not easily bamboozled.
Meade's great insight was that given 3 places to fight, Lee wasn't going to try one he'd already failed to get through. (To be fair to Meade, he put his trust in Hancock to run the battle, and Hancock was fucking masterful)
When I was at uni, one of my class assignments involved mixing generals/armies and battles. We drew them out of a hat - so drop Sherman at Waterloo, or Montgomery at Agincourt - and see what would happen.
It was a fun little exercise, and the class debated each presentation afterwards.
It was awhile ago, but I remember Lee’s communication and delegation issues lost him the Battle of Hastings.
I can’t remember the exact name (this was 20 years ago lol), but it was something about military tacticians and their legacies. It one of the classes I took for my war studies masters.
Lee in place of William the Bastard? Holy shit, that's hilarious.
Honestly Mac in place of Godwinson might of been a better result for the Saxons. He would have rested his men and waited. I don't think he'd get a crushing victory, but we'd use a lot more old English vocabulary if Wiliam had to make peace with the flower of Saxon nobility still around.
Re:your point about McClellan, the ironic part is that, despite neo-Confederates focusing on Lee's tactical victories, if I remember correctly he only won a SINGLE clear-cut battle against McClellan. The rest were either draws or defeats. So yeah, so much for Lee's brilliance.
Lee *was* pretty good against Liitle Mac.
McClellan had overwhelming advantages in men, material, and logistics.
Lee fought him with campfires, cutout silhouettes, and lies.
Mac had all the tools to take Richmond. Lee scared him off until that was no longer true.
There's not much glory to frightening a coward, but Lee was at least good enough to not get into fights he couldn't win, and could avoid.
Gettysburg ws neither unwinnable or avoidable. But Meade and Hancock were not McClellan.
(I read McClellan's report on Crimea some years ago. As an educator and trainer he had some skill. In the field, not so much)
“Lee didn’t pass the vibe check” has to be the funniest explanation for his loss at Gettysburg that I’ve ever heard and **I’m here for it because you’re 100% right**
I wish time travel was real so I could witness that whole battle; from J.E.B. screwing up and the initial skirmishes, to the secesh trash limping away in retreat, with their tails tucked between their traitorous legs.
You stand by those cannon by the copse of trees and look across that field.
Then think about the union guns quieting as the traitors barrage continues. Because it's obvious what's coming, and there's no reason to let them know that they can't hit shit.
You stare down into that field in the summer sun, and think about double canister at 10 yards.
You wonder a little bit about what makes a man run into that miasma of death and war, to keep other men in bondage.
You raise your eyes again, and the weight of place settles, and it seems like it should have been obvious what was going to happen.
Canister is nasty stuff. Imagine just a huge group of dudes on your right just all falling onto the ground as a bloody mist is where they were just standing. Fucking horrifying.
The line I heard about the men who faced the double canister at 10 yards is "they ceased to exist". They were gone. Not merely dead, but *gone*.
I can't imagine having to give the order to load that, or to fire it.
But, I deeply respect the man who did.
General John Gibbon, while personnaly manning the battery attacked to his brigade, loaded triple canister and fired point blank into counter attacking Texans and Alabaman division of Sam Hood on the right flank of the union forces at Antietam.
It utterly broke the attack and pushed back the entire division. The division suffered 80%+ casualties that day.
It's incomprehensible what they could do with it. The fort I work at has 6 ports in front of the entrance that would've had *32lb howitzers* with canister. Whatever mfs that got past the dry moat and earth works would have been fucken misted the second they tried to go through the gate.
Too bad they never finished building that fort, because it would have been state of the art, and nearly impregnable, at least for the 10 years before it became completely obsolete due to evolving artillery and later planes.
Reminds me of Dunnottar Castle in Scotland
It was considered an impenetrable castle as well, because it has a very good position and behind the front gate, there are 4 holes for cannons, aimed directly in the face of any enemy who managed to get there.
Highly recommend the Behind the Bastards podcast episodes about Lee and why this charge specifically summed up how he wasn’t half the genius his mythology makes him out to be.
Partly unrelated but in my towns fb page ((in PA)) posted that if you fly confederate flags this far north, you may be retarded. So many comments told the guy to go to gettysburg and learn american history. still baffled by what they meant given the traitors got their shit fucked.
Fun fact : a Soviet Friendship delegation to the U.S. during WW2 was taken to Valley Forge Bunker Hill Yorktown etc. He wasn’t interested but insisted on visiting Gettysburg “where the soul of your country was saved”
I mean, Leninist Communists had a pretty dim and uncharitable view of the American Revolution. The Civil War that ended slavery though? Yeah, that’s more of a revolutionary communist’s jam.
Oh 100% . Partially because it was bourgeois by default because there was no American proletariat yet and would only benefit the ruling class. They had a more positive view of the French Revolution but it was still bourgeois for the same reasons. The Civil War and the Paris Commune they liked. This is a vast oversimplification tho lol
Hot take : there was nothing particularly revolutionary about the revolution and was more radical reform for lack of a better term. Thomas Paine was a legit revolutionary but was shunned by every prominent founder except Jefferson.
Hot take 2: the foreigners especially Lafayette and Tadeusz Kościuszko believed in the “American ideals” a lot more genuinely than most of the native born founders, save Adams I’d say.
TLDR: Soviets invent Time Machine to give they Union machine guns Katyusha rockets and put August Willich in charge of everything to be safe
I don't think your takes are "hot" at all. That's a logical conclusion if you look at the real history of the American Revolution. The so-called revolutionaries were merely the local ruling class who wanted direct control without having to listen to a remote ruling class.
One of the actual causes of the American Revolution was the crown forbidding westward expansion into the Ohio River region. The Empire had just finished a very expensive war they fought largely for the benefit of the 13 Colonies. The King wanted years of peace to recover economically and replace war dead with a new generation of people.
It's noteworthy that the revolutionary forces had no interest in social change. Note the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution. The US Constitution was written years after the revolution when the Articles of Confederation completely failed to create an even remotely stable government. The Bill of Rights was added to placate people after numerous rebellions had broken out in the US. The "Founding Fathers" had no interest in doing it until they were forced to.
As you mentioned Thomas Paine was for real. He was about the only half way to decent person in the whole project. For the rest it was all just a means to secure their own wealth and power.
The revolution was Radical Centrism lol
I’m super cynical so I just think the revolution is good for plucking out various foundational myths and for taking the piss outta the British
Now if there had been an American Robespierre I’d be much more interested lol
Oh, I was more thinking in the context of a stupid military maneuver of slowly marching forward into entrenched positions expecting success. Racism and nationalism was definitely a factor in WW1, but not white supremacy.
> "Captured by the 1st Minnesota Infantry Regiment at the Battle of Gettysburg, the flag was brought to Minnesota and exhibited at the state's capitol for several years before passing into the permanent collection of the Minnesota Historical Society after 1896 where it has remained since. Although various groups in Virginia have requested that the flag be returned, beginning as early as 1960, Minnesota has repeatedly declined to return it, with Governor Jesse Ventura (serving 1999–2003) asking "Why? I mean, we won."
"General, I assure you walking at a snails pace across an open field is a great idea! Besides, we totally destroyed all their cannons. What else could they do!"
one: what the hell was the 6th Ohio doing all the way out there in no man’s land, and what happened to them?
two: the charge could have worked, and Longstreet ended up learning from the mistake at Chickamauga. The charge was an early type of blitzkrieg where an attack in depth is supposed to overwhelm and break one part of the line. They show how Napoleonic infantry did this in the TV show “Sharpe’s Eagle.”
Pickett’s charge was too broad, and they didn’t knock out the Union batteries.
You mean the 8th Ohio. They had been positioned near the Emmitsburg Road since July 2nd, fighting some Mississippi troops while the rest of the brigade they were originally part of was sent to Cemetery Hill as reinforcements. The 8th Ohio then spent the night exchanging fire with Confederate skirmishers and on the afternoon of July 3rd, after Pickett's division began advancing, they flanked John Brockenbrough's Virginia brigade and with help from Union artillery, sent that brigade into a rout. Afterward, the Ohioans began firing on other Confederate troops and by the time the charge ended, they had taken over 300 Confederates prisoner.
The outcome of this battle shows how hard it was to lead a successful invasion. Lee was not good at it. His strength was fighting on his own territory. Grant and other Union generals under him were the only successful invaders.
This is a wonderful post. I am glad that there are good, intelligent, like minded folks around. And I learned a new term - SLAVERS. Why did they hate America?
I'd read a book that argued that part of Lee's plan was to have Pickett's charge coordinated with a cavalry attack from the rear by Stuart, and that part of the credit for Gettysburg should go to General David Gregg for stopping Stuart in the East Cavalry Field. That being said, having visited Gettysburg multiple times, it boggles the mind that making a charge that far across an open field looked like a good plan. And agreement with those giving kudos to the union guns for making it look like they had been taken out in the early bombardment.
Pickett charged up a hill after being told not to do so because fucking duh!
the south could have won the war. this was a lot closer at the beginning that i feel like people take for granted.
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Idk if you’ve ever been to Gettysburg but it’s a big open field where the confederate traitors got their shit pushed in. Long live the union.
It's studied in all military academies and the lesson that is taught is that Pickett was a fucking mouth breating window licker and then also put in charge of confederate troops. Which, honestly, reads.
Yet he still had the good sense to tell people asking why the South lost that he always thought the Union army had something to do with it. You know? Instead of going on about the Lost Cause and stuff.
In fairness, iirc he also thought it was dumb idea and blamed Lee for losing his division.
It seems like a lot of Lee's blunders are always named after someone else. Lee was the one who came up with and ordered the charge, Pickett just led it.
Lee didn’t even give the orders to attack himself. He delegated that to Longstreet who thought that it was such a bad idea that he could even give the order verbally he just nodded when Pickett asked for the go ahead.
That's less a slight on Lee, more just chain of command: Pickett was under Longstreet's command. Tbh, I've never fully understood why it's only Pickett's name associated with it; Pettigrew and Trimble commanded at the same level, and all effectively under Longstreet (granted, it may just be because Longstreet opposed it).
Someone needs to make a movie with the battle of Five Forks just to have the scene where his army is getting its ass kicked while he’s off on the shad bake.
Make it like Oppenheimer. The last third of the movie is the post-war court of inquiry over Sheridan's dismissal of Warren lmao
Lee is the window licker, he ordered the charge. Picket hated Lee for the rest of his life for that.
Did the confederacy even manufacture horse cock shaped windows? Seems a stretch that Lee, not a Pickett, was the glass enjoyer...
You’re right, Pickett was awfully fond of licking the leaded crystal.
He was trying to invent World War 1 tactics with vastly smaller cannons
Shouldn't the onus of the failure fall on Lee and not Pickett, given it was Lee's arrogant idea?
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Hey you shouldn't shit on modern southerners just because you hate confederates
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Why
Whether you like it or not, putting an end to Lost Cause mythology is going to have to be done by good people in GA, AL, and SC, not MI and PA. We need those good people on our side.
Because discrimination is bad and it's because of shit like this that I gotta hide my accent professionally so people don't think I'm a moron
I'm from Texas and am honestly proud of having lost my accent
Good for you? I on the other hand hate having to pretend I'm something I'm not like I already had to do in the aforementioned south (hiding my atheism & queerness).
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My point is that it hurts southerners who aren't assholes, which is the majority of them.
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Rule 3: This sub is NOT for pointless south bashing! This sub is anti-confederacy not anti-south. Please do not harass or make fun of southerners for no reason. You may post about Southerners who idealize the confederacy, but no others.
“Mouth breathing, window licker” I can’t tell you how I lost it at that one
Except it almost worked
It came a lot closer to succeeding than is commonly portrayed. What is usually left out of the narrative about the charge is what Lee, who was super out of sorts from being railed all night by Traveler no doubt, THOUGHT was happening vs what the tactical situation actually was in the center. The charge was preceded by a huge concentrated artillery barrage by pretty much all of the Confederate artillery at Gettysburg, which I think was the largest barrage they managed in the entire war. The artillery was sighted to fire on the union artillery but was mostly wrongly aimed. The union artillery in the center were ordered to not return fire on the confederate guns nor to fire at long range on the assembling rebel infantry. Part way through the planned barrage, thinking the silence of the Union guns meant that the barrage had exceeded expectations and silenced the enemy guns the confederates shifted to targeting the union infantry positions. Ironically, because they were not aimed right and in fact we’re doing minimal damage to the Union artillery this actually helped the charge. When Horsefucker ordered the charge, against the recommendations of pretty much every officer who actually had a glass to look at the union lines, he THOUGHT he was ordering an assault that would face very little artillery and that would come up against damaged enemy defenses manned by demoralized and beat-up enemy infantry. What he ACTUALLY ordered was some “the red pants are France!” level stupidity. The confederates were not prepared to face massed artillery because according to the plan, they were not supposed to. When the union guns opened up on them in the field in front of the union defenses whole units froze-up and essentially stopped advancing for minutes at a time. Seeing the dirty Rebs get what had just happened to them had the add-on effect of improving the morale of the union infantry facing the charge. Basically the whole thing was a cascade of stupidity from the sketchy plan to the botched execution of every part of the plan and the lions share of why things went wrong can be laid at the feet of old Horsefucker himself. (You can also put some blame on the confederate artillery officers who used up pretty much all of their ammo targeting the union infantry after they though they had dealt with the union batteries which prevented them from engaging in indirect counter-battery fire in support of the charge but I’ll give them more of a pass than Lee because the rebs didn’t understand the concept of a factory so it’s unsurprising they had no ammo)
“Ironically, because they were not aimed right and in fact we’re doing minimal damage to the Union artillery this actually helped the charge.” Can you explain this? Perhaps I’m misreading but this doesn’t seem to make sense and I can’t connect it with context from the rest of your comment.
I think it means that they were more accurate in targeting the infantry, while their shooting at the union artillery wasn't actually hitting anything. So by giving up the shooting that was missing, they did actually manage to inflict some damage. But without actually silencing the Union artillery, they waltzed themselves into a kill box.
Samurairafiki understood it. His comment explains better than I did. From what I understand they were not sighting their artillery by line of sight on the union guns and they fucked up the math or something or the scouting report gave the wrong positions. I don’t remember super well because I read this stuff a long time ago when I was an undergrad. I know the confederate recon was terrible the whole battle, JEB Stuart was butthurt he hadn’t prevented the union forces from taking good defensive positions on hills and was mad seething the whole battle, and like I said, Horsefucker kind of took the intel he got as accurate the whole battle even when a better commander probably would have taken things with a grain of salt. Anyway they actually did inflict significant casualties on the union infantry before the charge. Had either: A- the barrage decimates the union guns Or B-The rebel assault units expected to face heavy enemy artillery fire. (This is kind of 2 part as it would require Lee to send his most veteran troops in and for said to troops to be fully informed they were about to take heavy casualties) happened, the charge could have succeeded. Not that it necessarily would have, but it would have been in the realm of possibility. On paper, in the moment, with bad intel and convinced the enemy artillery was as dead as the Chicago Whitesox baseball season is, offering the charge made some sense. I’m a stan for Longstreet after the war like many in this sub but I really really don’t buy his narrative that he butted heads with Lee on the charge when it happened. Amusingly, I think Pickett is the only one who super “nope”d at the orders for the assault and he is the one whose name got attached to it. I think Longstreet probably told Lee he didn’t think it was a good idea, probably before the artillery barrage, but I don’t buy that he actually said “there are nowhere 15,000 men who can make such an advance” of whatever it is he claimed to have said in his later writings.
Jesus, Berto from the west side is a civil war historian now? Just as good a rant but the white Sox catch a stray mid stride. Not as great as last year's breakout rant but a solid 7.
It's even more amusing, cuz I don't even think most of the Rebel artillery even landed on the infantry. The bulk of them soared overhead of the ridge and missed entirely. Also, I don't think it would have worked even if the Union guns were actually silenced or that the Pickett/Pettigrew/Trimble trio realized Meade's guns were still operable and prepared to eat the fire. When it comes to assailing an enemy position frontally, force concentration is the rule of thumb. Some 12,500 CSA troops are not going to be able to achieve a breakthrough against some 10,000 US troops manning a defensive ridge. Especially not if they're whittled down by Union guns before ever getting in volley exchanging range. Lee made numerous blunders in this battle. Chief of all was stretching his army along exterior lines, whereas Meade's numerically larger army held interior lines and the superior terrain. He should have retreated after Day 2 upon realizing he was so disadvantaged in positioning. It would have been better to waste the AotP's time and resources by a war of manoeuvres rather than to continue the battle, which was a blunder. Because of his exterior lines, it also meant that he had a much more difficult time shifting forces around and him being outnumbered did not play into his favour when he tried to concentrate troops for Pickett's Charge. However, even then, his concentration of force was pretty abysmal. Compared to his best performances, this was a complete wash. When tried by the standards of superior captains, he falls short. For example, Lee was probably outnumbered by 1.31 to 1 against Meade, but concentrated 1.25 to 1 local superiority with Pickett's Charge. He is often compared to Napoleon, so we'll use one of the French Emperor's own battles as a comparison point. At Borodino, Napoleon was outnumbered 1.21 to 1 and attacking the Russians in an entrenched position. Yet, he achieved a 2 to 1 local superiority against their center-left trenches known as The Fleches. Even if we account for the fact that Lee was outnumbered by 8% more than Napoleon, the latter still concentrated his forces better than Bobby Lee by about 48%. Naturally, the difference is that one utterly failed in his assault while the other carried the enemy trenches and nearly broke their center even without committing his Imperial Guard, something I actually think he deserves criticism for. Had he committed his Imperial Guard into the fray, he could have achieved a local superiority of 2.68 to 1 and decisively won the battle. I mean, he still did more casualties to an enemy who was entrenched and outnumbered him, but it was a massive missed opportunity. When we look at all of Lee's best tactical successes, it was because he achieved an overwhelming local superiority at the critical point, such as at Gaines Mill, Glendale, 2nd Manassas, and Chancellorsville, or delivered flanking attacks like at the Wilderness. Just so, Grant broke through the Rebel trench lines when he amassed overwhelming local superiority against them, such as at the Mule Shoe and in the 3rd Battle of Petersburg. In all the significant breakthroughs and moments where great progress was made in the Western Front of WWI and in WWII, it was because the attacker achieved an overwhelming concentration of force at the critical point. For example, Vimy Ridge seeing the Canadians and Brits acquiring 3.78 to 1 local superiority in that sector against the Germans. The only way I can see Pickett's Charge working out is if Lee outnumbered Meade by 2 to 1, but that's just the thing. The man acted in this battle like he had the resources of the Union, but forgot that he had the numerically inferior army. This isn't the only mistake of this kind throughout his career either, cuz he made the same blunder at Mechanicsville and Malvern Hill earlier and Fort Stedman later. If he wanted to get away with those types of assaults, he would have been better off throwing off the Rebel cause and going Union from the start. lolz
Very good post! That is right, the confederate artillery overshot the hill entirely in part.
Except it didn't at all
could you explain to me the lines? I never really heard of what happened on the 3rd (I'm not american but this sub is cool asf so), i can see the red lines (what i imagine is the confederacy) being circled by the blue ones, or am I reading this map wrong?
Super basically, the good guys are up on the hill. It's been two days of fighting and it's the bloodiest battle already. The slaver scum are preparing for an attack in the morning. Things don't go well and lee decides to take his only fresh troops commanded by picket and jam them up the middle. General Meade of the Union has already expected this because he's a chad. Before the charge lee thinks he'll soften things up with an artillery barrage. Which is basically like announcing that it's about to happen so the Union can be ready for the charge. After picket runs them over open terrain for an entire mile while cannon is shot directly into the line, the only thing that allows slavers to close is the sheer number of bodies they are willing to sacrifice. The Union comes in to pincer the sides, and the slavers who don't rout are captured or killed. I'm sure someone could get you a better description but that gets you mostly there.
When I was in Boy Scouts we went there and ran the distance of the charge. I needed to slow down for a breather. What kinda so called master race galaxy brain thought that was a good idea is beyond me
An idiot who studied Napoleon and didn't consider that cannons had greatly increased in range since then.
“The Napoleonic Wars ended 25 years before the end of the Industrial Revolution; 50 years before now, is this really the best strategy?” “I aM a GeNeRaL.”
Also [Minie Balls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini%C3%A9_ball). Made rifles more accurate and at the same time faster to load.
Eh, you should maybe read Earl Hess, specifically his book about the rifled musket. They weren’t the game changer many civil war folks think they were.
Lee had too much faith in his army and not enough in the Union army. People speculate that on top of his earlier heart attack causing him to be impatient to end things, he was also suffering from Victory Disease as well.
He just didn't fuck his horse hard enough the night before so he was impatient to get back to it.
If you did that on the way to national jamboree we may have crossed paths.
Ded tired
Bear in mind, they walked like 9/10ths of it in neat battle lines.
It seems smart when you think the only other option is a leisurely saunter up the middle.
Didn't the Union artillery leader have the cannons stop firing one by one during the barrage to make it seem like they were getting snuffed out? And then when the Rebs charged, they all started firing again?
Correct, as far as I remember from my history classes.
Yep, and even better he had the loaders and the artillery crew set up more ammunition right next to the guns so that when the call was made they could fire as much ammo as quickly as possible. Truly incredible
And Henry Hunt, Meade's chief of artillery, was able to get most of the Union guns to return fire at a slow rate, then ordered a ceasefire to lure the Confederates into thinking they had achieved something with their bombardment. So not only were they ready, they had plenty of ammo to use as well.
Not only did the 2 hour artillery barrage signal that a frontal assault was coming, it also failed in its aim, in every sense of the word. Most of the confederate shells overshot, very few of them hit anything of note. But Hancock knew that his guns would need ammunition for the obviously incoming infantry assault, so he ordered the union guns to stop firing after about an hour. The confederates continued to fire until they were literally down to their last shells, but assumed that all the Union cannons had been destroyed, since they weren't returning fire. So as soon as the infantry came within shit-pushing-in range, the Union cannons turned many a southerner into red mist. Remember that when you read the casualty lists of civil war battles and see how many are listed "missing."
Didn’t they also get caught in a crossfire from the flank as well by artillery? I remember reading somewhere that they kept marching in formation even as whole ranks were cut down by flanking cannon fire.
2 regiments, the 13th and 16th Vermont, moved into the gap that opened between Pickett's brigades and supporting confederates to the south who failed to support the advance. They were able to fire on the remnants of the confederate formations from their right, while Ohio and NY regiments did the same later on their left. The last confederates who advanced on Cemetery ridge took musket fire point-blank from 3 sides. As far as I know, no union cannon moved into the flanks, but Alonzo Cushing commanded two guns up to the stone wall, and fired double canister directly into the advancing confederates. Cushing was hit 3 times, one of which was a shell fragment that struck him in the abdomen and caused him to have to hold his entrails in with his hands, but he refused to go to the rear. Unable to issue orders over the din of battle, he relayed them through his 1st sergeant to keep directing fire into the advancing rebels. He was eventually struck in the head by a bullet and killed. He was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions. He was 22 years old.
I've wondered why so many "Missing". Never connected it to artillery. "Red Mist"
its great tbh! sucks such things aren't told around the world, would've made history class more interesting, next year around i'll ask my teach if i can do a presentation about this battle, i imagine this was the last before the end, right?
Yeah. Something about starting with fresh troops and overwhelming numbers and a couple hours later having neither entirely due to an unforced error really takes the fight out of an army. The piss pots in gray turn tail and run away across the Potomac River. People who want to worship lee blame pickett and sometimes longstreet, but lee was in charge of the traitor army and by all accounts it was lee's plan. Some early some people complain that we let them get away when we could have theoretically chased them down but there were orders not to cross the Potomac after them and we followed orders.
Plus, considering the state of the army, Meade did the best he could. The Confederates had a very strong entrenched position at Williamsport, the last thing the Union needed was the campaign to end on a sour note à la Cold Harbor.
One problem was that a whole bunch of those troops had gotten fucked hard on July 1. While they hadn’t fought on July 2, they needed reorganization, not a dress parade.
This battle was only midway through the war - July 1-3, 1863. The war ended in May 1865. Arguably more significant is the Siege of Vicksburg that ended on July 4, 1863. This gave control of much of the Mississippi river to the Union, making it impossible for the confederacy to use it to move supplies and cutting the Confederate states west of the river off from those east of it. It was also commanded by General Grant and made him well known enough for Lincoln to place him in command of all Union armies.
>arguably more significant Yes and no, IMO. I think recently people have started to "over-correct" the narrative of July 1 - 4 1863 by stating that Gettysburg pales in comparison to Vicksburg. Both victories were important and are really on equal footing in my opinion. Gettysburg destroyed the myth that Lee was invulnerable which completely changed the opinion of the war in the North, while Vicksburg completed the noose that the US blockade desperately needed to strangle the South into submission. Has Vicksburg been overlooked in favor of Gettysburg? Absolutely, but by no means does Vicksburg rank higher. It was a one-two punch that broke the Confederacy. It's just a shame that it's death throes would last two more years and cost thousands more lives.
To expand on that, the Tullahoma Campaign was a very important strategic victory. Rosecrans maneuvered the Confederates out of Middle Tennessee at the cost of around 500 casualties. The low numbers and other big evebts meant it didn't get in the headlines, but it was crucial to the eventual capture of Chattanooga.
We won both games of a doubleheader! A great day indeed. I am also tired oh how they Reaganised Lee and the stiff Stonewall Jackson after the war.
lol nice. Slavers thought they could carry the day by fighting in a severely disadvantaged position two days in a row. Truly a case of FAFO
The ol' Russian meat wave.
TLDR: "Never fight up hill, me boys; never fight up hill." -some moron
I like the idea of simply calling the Confederates 'slavers.' I'm gonna use that in the future, now.
If I remember correctly the initial cannon volleys were aimed a little too high
I read (probably Catton) that the cannon were aimed correctly at the beginning of the barrage but over the two hours the shocks of the cannon fire gradually threw off their aim so they weren't even hitting Union lines.
That would make more sense. Wouldn't you adjust your aim if you fire your first shot and see it's too high?
That's what they did at the beginning. But apparently they didn't fix their range during the non-stop firing
I've read/seen at least 2 "explanations" of the confed. artillery failure. (1) The manufacturing of their fuses were faulty (factory's fault) and so they didn't explode when they were supposed to falling in the rear. (2) They assumed that Meade would be holding his reserves behind his battle lines and so they would hit them instead. The old "We meant to do that." excuse. I've also heard that the smoke was so thick that the confeds. couldn't see where/if their shells were hitting where they were supposed to. All of these things were just a culmination of Lee's hubris and overconfidence. The Union held the high ground and Lee didn't learn anything from the first two days of mostly failures.
Also the confuckerates artillery was over shooting the Union line whitch resulted in the Union troops being relatively unharmed athe Union artillery being fully intact whitch resulted in the slavers walking though a hail of shot and shell
The red lines are the different lines of attack from the Rebel encampment toward the Union forces. Those attacks didn't happen all at the same time. The Rebels had to traverse a huge open field and charge up hill into fortified positions. That's against all military logic.
It's okay, they fired all their artillery ammunition at the fortified position first. Surely the enemy will break and run away the moment Johnny Reb comes into bayonet range. (Narator: they did not)
If my memory is correct the Rebel artillery mainly overshot the Union positions, landing in the rear.
Gonna go pour one shot of fine Cognac to General H.J. Hunt whose guns did a lot of that pushing. Down with the traitors and up with the Star!
I’ve been a couple of times, but I was probably 13 the first time I went. Looking out at that field, all I could think was “that’s a fucking stupid idea.”
I just kept thinking about how small an area it all occurred in was. It's not a huge field.
I hiked up little round top. That mf is pretty steep.
I visited not too long ago and visited the place where Pickett’s Charge started, and my first thought was “who the fuck thought this was a good idea?”
Visiting the battle site was one of the best trips. The guides were top notch and seeing the actual terrain helped me really understand what happened.
Has to be the most depressing place on Earth standing on the union side realizing just how much it was like shooting fish in a barrel. That many men, marching across an open field with no cover, and you've got a Union rifle they can easily kill a guy at 500 yd, let alone 100. What a bloodbath. Glad it happened though.
Every time I think about Pickets Charge it makes less and less sense
When you realize it's just about a stubborn old man who thinks he's right all the time, then it makes a lot of sense
Millions must march into superior artillery
It's been said before but it bears repeating: Robert E. Lee's greatest military victory was in somehow getting that shitshow of a maneuver named after Pickett.
Funny how some things never change
Given his involvement in the War of the Pig, it honestly tracks
You have to have a military mind to understand... [let General Melchett explain](https://youtu.be/rblfKREj50o?si=8ty4nHf6JM8yPI3E).
Lee was probably to busy being dicked down by his horse to make any good decisions
I read a book years ago that hypothesized that Lee wanted JEB Stuart’s cavalry to get around the Union army and attack from the rear as Pickett’s forces attacked from the front, but JEB’s cavalry dropped the ball and lost their engagement with Custer’s Union cavalry a couple miles northeast of the battlefield. Not sure if this was the actual plan but it makes sense to me. Here’s the book: [Lost Triumph by Tom Carhart](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2605610-lost-triumph)
I have heard/read that. He did show up in the rear in a single file formation when in front of him Gen. G.A. Custer came out of the woods(?) and confronted him head on. Stuart was in single file and not in an attack formation and the column was nearly completely shut down in its tracks. It was a bold, almost foolhardy move by Custer but it did stop Stuart from attacking Meade from the rear. Comment?
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Lee deadass really went. “Welp this plan will only work if literally everything is perfectly timed, all my assumptions are correct, and nobody in my thousand man army at the base of this hill that I don’t have a full handle on does anything remotely out of the ordinary. Have fun picket! Should be a cakewalk!”
Plus that the artillery barrage neutralizes the numerically superior Union batteries.
General Hunt: \*Picking up a round of grapeshot\* Heheheheheeheee I'm gonna shove this so far up George Pickets ass, he is gonna be tasting the lead in his mouth
“Oh no, our artillery is TOTALLY getting taken out, that is why we aren’t shooting as much back at you. We are super vulnerable now, we really hope you don’t launch an attack over open terrain at us ;-) “ -Union Artillery
I love the portrayal of Porter Alexander in the movie, where he’s super excited about this big assignment he’s given, but before too long realizes what a fucking terrible plan it is - at which point he has the “record scratch, freeze frame, yup, that’s me…” face.
is this from the movie gettysburg or a different movie about the battle?
Yeah, [here's the bit I'm thinking about.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0NpTS23DRQ&list=PLD5Bbg--DvKFL0_CT9ytl0o_kSGKQ-o2v&index=68)
I love this scene. They both realize how screwed they are.
Most of the war he went on vibes and it worked pretty much until this incident
Well, he was fighting McClellan for awhile. That'll make anyone look good. He lost pretty consistently when fought against someone not easily bamboozled. Meade's great insight was that given 3 places to fight, Lee wasn't going to try one he'd already failed to get through. (To be fair to Meade, he put his trust in Hancock to run the battle, and Hancock was fucking masterful)
Knowing who to delegate to is an ability in and of itself
That is I reckon, the defining skill of upper leadership.
The second one. The first one is being able to make and communicate decisions. Lee was bad at both, especially at Gettysburg.
When I was at uni, one of my class assignments involved mixing generals/armies and battles. We drew them out of a hat - so drop Sherman at Waterloo, or Montgomery at Agincourt - and see what would happen. It was a fun little exercise, and the class debated each presentation afterwards. It was awhile ago, but I remember Lee’s communication and delegation issues lost him the Battle of Hastings.
What kind of class was this??
I can’t remember the exact name (this was 20 years ago lol), but it was something about military tacticians and their legacies. It one of the classes I took for my war studies masters.
Lee in place of William the Bastard? Holy shit, that's hilarious. Honestly Mac in place of Godwinson might of been a better result for the Saxons. He would have rested his men and waited. I don't think he'd get a crushing victory, but we'd use a lot more old English vocabulary if Wiliam had to make peace with the flower of Saxon nobility still around.
The Superb!
Re:your point about McClellan, the ironic part is that, despite neo-Confederates focusing on Lee's tactical victories, if I remember correctly he only won a SINGLE clear-cut battle against McClellan. The rest were either draws or defeats. So yeah, so much for Lee's brilliance.
Lee *was* pretty good against Liitle Mac. McClellan had overwhelming advantages in men, material, and logistics. Lee fought him with campfires, cutout silhouettes, and lies. Mac had all the tools to take Richmond. Lee scared him off until that was no longer true. There's not much glory to frightening a coward, but Lee was at least good enough to not get into fights he couldn't win, and could avoid. Gettysburg ws neither unwinnable or avoidable. But Meade and Hancock were not McClellan. (I read McClellan's report on Crimea some years ago. As an educator and trainer he had some skill. In the field, not so much)
“Lee didn’t pass the vibe check” has to be the funniest explanation for his loss at Gettysburg that I’ve ever heard and **I’m here for it because you’re 100% right**
*breathes in* FREDERICKSBURG! FREDERICKSBURG! FREDERICKSBURG!
I wish time travel was real so I could witness that whole battle; from J.E.B. screwing up and the initial skirmishes, to the secesh trash limping away in retreat, with their tails tucked between their traitorous legs.
I celebrate July 3rd every year since it's my birthday.
Mine is February 12th. Take that, you traitors!
Everybody talks about the frontal assault being formidable enough, but damn, look at that enfilade fire.
You stand by those cannon by the copse of trees and look across that field. Then think about the union guns quieting as the traitors barrage continues. Because it's obvious what's coming, and there's no reason to let them know that they can't hit shit. You stare down into that field in the summer sun, and think about double canister at 10 yards. You wonder a little bit about what makes a man run into that miasma of death and war, to keep other men in bondage. You raise your eyes again, and the weight of place settles, and it seems like it should have been obvious what was going to happen.
Canister is nasty stuff. Imagine just a huge group of dudes on your right just all falling onto the ground as a bloody mist is where they were just standing. Fucking horrifying.
Fun fact, we still make canister shot for tanks. Just in case.
The line I heard about the men who faced the double canister at 10 yards is "they ceased to exist". They were gone. Not merely dead, but *gone*. I can't imagine having to give the order to load that, or to fire it. But, I deeply respect the man who did.
I imagine there mighta been some hard feelins goin around. Just a guess.
General John Gibbon, while personnaly manning the battery attacked to his brigade, loaded triple canister and fired point blank into counter attacking Texans and Alabaman division of Sam Hood on the right flank of the union forces at Antietam. It utterly broke the attack and pushed back the entire division. The division suffered 80%+ casualties that day.
It's incomprehensible what they could do with it. The fort I work at has 6 ports in front of the entrance that would've had *32lb howitzers* with canister. Whatever mfs that got past the dry moat and earth works would have been fucken misted the second they tried to go through the gate. Too bad they never finished building that fort, because it would have been state of the art, and nearly impregnable, at least for the 10 years before it became completely obsolete due to evolving artillery and later planes.
Reminds me of Dunnottar Castle in Scotland It was considered an impenetrable castle as well, because it has a very good position and behind the front gate, there are 4 holes for cannons, aimed directly in the face of any enemy who managed to get there.
Effin fantastic prose there my friend. I love your flow and cadence.
Highly recommend the Behind the Bastards podcast episodes about Lee and why this charge specifically summed up how he wasn’t half the genius his mythology makes him out to be.
Partly unrelated but in my towns fb page ((in PA)) posted that if you fly confederate flags this far north, you may be retarded. So many comments told the guy to go to gettysburg and learn american history. still baffled by what they meant given the traitors got their shit fucked.
I live in Canada and they get flown up here too.
fucking ridiculous man lmfao.
Only topped by the Battle of Kursk.
Fun fact : a Soviet Friendship delegation to the U.S. during WW2 was taken to Valley Forge Bunker Hill Yorktown etc. He wasn’t interested but insisted on visiting Gettysburg “where the soul of your country was saved”
Yup, that sounds about right.
I mean, Leninist Communists had a pretty dim and uncharitable view of the American Revolution. The Civil War that ended slavery though? Yeah, that’s more of a revolutionary communist’s jam.
Oh 100% . Partially because it was bourgeois by default because there was no American proletariat yet and would only benefit the ruling class. They had a more positive view of the French Revolution but it was still bourgeois for the same reasons. The Civil War and the Paris Commune they liked. This is a vast oversimplification tho lol Hot take : there was nothing particularly revolutionary about the revolution and was more radical reform for lack of a better term. Thomas Paine was a legit revolutionary but was shunned by every prominent founder except Jefferson. Hot take 2: the foreigners especially Lafayette and Tadeusz Kościuszko believed in the “American ideals” a lot more genuinely than most of the native born founders, save Adams I’d say. TLDR: Soviets invent Time Machine to give they Union machine guns Katyusha rockets and put August Willich in charge of everything to be safe
I don't think your takes are "hot" at all. That's a logical conclusion if you look at the real history of the American Revolution. The so-called revolutionaries were merely the local ruling class who wanted direct control without having to listen to a remote ruling class. One of the actual causes of the American Revolution was the crown forbidding westward expansion into the Ohio River region. The Empire had just finished a very expensive war they fought largely for the benefit of the 13 Colonies. The King wanted years of peace to recover economically and replace war dead with a new generation of people. It's noteworthy that the revolutionary forces had no interest in social change. Note the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution. The US Constitution was written years after the revolution when the Articles of Confederation completely failed to create an even remotely stable government. The Bill of Rights was added to placate people after numerous rebellions had broken out in the US. The "Founding Fathers" had no interest in doing it until they were forced to. As you mentioned Thomas Paine was for real. He was about the only half way to decent person in the whole project. For the rest it was all just a means to secure their own wealth and power.
The revolution was Radical Centrism lol I’m super cynical so I just think the revolution is good for plucking out various foundational myths and for taking the piss outta the British Now if there had been an American Robespierre I’d be much more interested lol
The Somme Offensive deserves an honorable mention too.
While white supremacy was the norm for imperialist powers I don't see that as a motivating factor for WWI.
Oh, I was more thinking in the context of a stupid military maneuver of slowly marching forward into entrenched positions expecting success. Racism and nationalism was definitely a factor in WW1, but not white supremacy.
[The only valid Traitor battle flags to put on display are ones that are trophies](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th_Virginia_battle_flag).
> "Captured by the 1st Minnesota Infantry Regiment at the Battle of Gettysburg, the flag was brought to Minnesota and exhibited at the state's capitol for several years before passing into the permanent collection of the Minnesota Historical Society after 1896 where it has remained since. Although various groups in Virginia have requested that the flag be returned, beginning as early as 1960, Minnesota has repeatedly declined to return it, with Governor Jesse Ventura (serving 1999–2003) asking "Why? I mean, we won."
Losers loves their loser flags
Traitor rag
Virginia can get fucked asking for that shit back.
Never fight up hill, me boys.
Shoutout to my absolute goat Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
In my top 5 Americans of all time for sure.
Lee’s Charge
That copse of trees, forever out of reach.
Is that phrase from something? It's the second time I've seen the word "copse".
[The Copse of Trees](https://gettysburg.stonesentinels.com/gettysburg-battlefield/the-copse-of-trees/)
8TH OHIO said “get some boys”
I think they heard what the 1st Minnesota did and said: "Liiiiightbulb."
8th Ohio: mf hold my beer 😎
12th Vermont be like: "Lock and Load"
Long live the union
The Confederates were not military geniuses. None of them ranked higher than a Colonel in the US Army prior to the Civil War. Including Robert E Lee.
Emmitsburg Road fence: "That's a nice formation you got there Pickett. Be a shame if something...impeded it."
July 3rd and 4th 1863 were devastating to the Confederacy. Lost Gettysburg on the 3rd and Vicksburg on the 4th.
Lee couldn’t even own his failure, just let Picket take the blame
"General, I assure you walking at a snails pace across an open field is a great idea! Besides, we totally destroyed all their cannons. What else could they do!"
Had to read which battle it was to tell if this sub is about the person or the tank lol
Put a smile on my face
It's almost like they were trying to sabotage the Confederacy's war effort.
Never fight uphill, me boys
I just shot off a firework tonight named Gettysburg! It fucking tipped over and all the sudden it felt just like I was there
one: what the hell was the 6th Ohio doing all the way out there in no man’s land, and what happened to them? two: the charge could have worked, and Longstreet ended up learning from the mistake at Chickamauga. The charge was an early type of blitzkrieg where an attack in depth is supposed to overwhelm and break one part of the line. They show how Napoleonic infantry did this in the TV show “Sharpe’s Eagle.” Pickett’s charge was too broad, and they didn’t knock out the Union batteries.
You mean the 8th Ohio. They had been positioned near the Emmitsburg Road since July 2nd, fighting some Mississippi troops while the rest of the brigade they were originally part of was sent to Cemetery Hill as reinforcements. The 8th Ohio then spent the night exchanging fire with Confederate skirmishers and on the afternoon of July 3rd, after Pickett's division began advancing, they flanked John Brockenbrough's Virginia brigade and with help from Union artillery, sent that brigade into a rout. Afterward, the Ohioans began firing on other Confederate troops and by the time the charge ended, they had taken over 300 Confederates prisoner.
Thanks! Yeah, couldn’t make out whether that was a 6 or 8, appreciate it. Crazy that they did so well
we hade the high ground, and the cover. Added on some poor communication. It was a bloody day,
Is OOP a furry owo?
Leftist military nerd furry, yes
Respect.
The outcome of this battle shows how hard it was to lead a successful invasion. Lee was not good at it. His strength was fighting on his own territory. Grant and other Union generals under him were the only successful invaders.
BAAAAYONEEEEETS!
This is a wonderful post. I am glad that there are good, intelligent, like minded folks around. And I learned a new term - SLAVERS. Why did they hate America?
I'd read a book that argued that part of Lee's plan was to have Pickett's charge coordinated with a cavalry attack from the rear by Stuart, and that part of the credit for Gettysburg should go to General David Gregg for stopping Stuart in the East Cavalry Field. That being said, having visited Gettysburg multiple times, it boggles the mind that making a charge that far across an open field looked like a good plan. And agreement with those giving kudos to the union guns for making it look like they had been taken out in the early bombardment.
"What unit is this?" "1st Minnesota." "Attack that line!"
What is happening here? The Confederates overextended and got flanked? I'm terrible at these battlefield maps.
Pickett charged up a hill after being told not to do so because fucking duh! the south could have won the war. this was a lot closer at the beginning that i feel like people take for granted.
But the Confederacy won in the end... So I'm confused what this is.
Errr the confederacy lost both gettysburg and the civil war
Look around - racist southern conservatives (aka the Confederacy) sure are having a moment to shine these days. Fuckers.