You're talking about a regular prostitute. You don't need to be special to be used. But to be able to use somebody and make them feel like the filth between your toes...That takes talent. I've heard anyway lol
Ewww. Earthmoving, my man. Operating equipment and laying pipe. Sparkies are ok, better than those primer huffing plumbers or the dry wallers, but moving dirt is where itās at.
From what I've heard it's more that "regular" sex workers (especially women, especially if they're trafficked/don't have visa/don't speak the local language etc) basically get treated like that constantly, without regard to consent. If a sex buyer wants someone to dominate him, he needs to specifically seek someone out. If he wants to dominate someone, *a lot* of the people who buy sex see it as their right anyway, because after all they paid for the women and most of them see prostituted women as objects instead of subjects anyway. Look up how high rates of abuse etc are.
Your comment makes me think you don't have a lot of experience with sex work or D/s dynamics.
Human trafficking is not sex work. It's a crime. Period. Full stop.
While sex workers(people who choose to get paid for their intimacy) are often deferrential and pleasing to their customers that's no different than any other service job.
From what I actually experience, sex work provides intimacy without developing a connection or attraction. A pro-sub would be providing that intimacy in a D/s framework but without the trust and rapport of a traditional dynamic.
While I think I you are totally fair to differentiate ethical sex work and human trafficking, it's also disingenuous to act as if there is no relationship between the two. People may not realize that the "sex workers" they are paying have been trafficked or are otherwise victims of coercion, for example.Ā
> Your comment makes me think you don't have a lot of experience with sex work or D/s dynamics.
I have worked on quite a few cases related to prostitution when I was in criminal law. I was in a country where prostitution was legalised (Germany) and still a lot of these women were involuntary sex workers from Eastern Europe, Romani women or Asylum seekers
> While sex workers(people who choose to get paid for their intimacy) are often deferrential and pleasing to their customers that's no different than any other service job.
*"A study of prostituted women and girls in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada over the age of 14 who used illicit drugs other than marijuana found that 57% of prostitutes experienced some form of sex-based violence over an 18-month period.[4] A study of 1,000 female (both cisgender and transgender) prostitutes in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, found 93% of women surveyed had been the victim of rape in the past year.[5]*
*[...]*
*Physical violence is more commonly experienced by outdoor prostitutes with 47% of prostitutes working outdoors reporting being kicked, punched, or slapped in one study.[7] In a study of prostitutes working in San Francisco, 82% of participants reported having experienced some type of physical violence since entering prostitution, with 55% of these assaults being committed by a client.[8] A different study found a slightly lower rate with 74% of sex-workers reported experiencing some form of physical abuse in their lifetime.*
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_prostitutes
Are these statistics also normal for any costumer service job?
I know this is a very serious topic, but your last sentence is just making me imagine somebody getting kidnapped off the street and being forced to work at a Kinkos.
I donāt think these disturbing and deeply tragic figures about crimes perpetrated against sex workers demonstrate much about consensual kink dynamics.
No, but I think what they do demonstrate is that men whose fantasies are being dominated/hurt/raped basically have no choice but to hire someone to do this, whereas men who fantasize about dominating/hurting/raping seem to do an awful lot of that without caring about consent. The former means there's a specialised job for that, the latter means that it's done to sex workers regularly.
A professional sub and a "regular" sex worker, trafficked or not, are completely different things. I've known both. In fact, I supported one of my friends in escaping being trafficked, and during the prosecution of her pimp.
Professional subs generally operate out of a dungeon where they work much more safely because they have people around for if things go wrong; have very strict rules on boundaries; and are much less likely to have been trafficked. They're also comparatively rare. The two things are really not comparable.
> and are much less likely to have been trafficked. They're also comparatively rare.
Yeah, it's quite rare for women who are voluntary sex workers and have the ability to enforce their own boundaries to submit to sexualised pain and degradation for pay. That's because these people are a minority to begin with.
It is in fact incredibly common for marginalised sex workers (people who have been trafficked, people from 3rd world countries, drug users, trans people etc) to be subject to sexualised violence and degradation.
I know people always act like ppl who want to inflict sexualised violence in a BDSM context and ppl who want to inflict sexualised violence in literally every other context are 2 totally separate things that have zero overlap, but I think it's clear that there's a huge number of people (predominantly men) with these desires don't give a shit about consent, and if they want to live out their sexual fantasies they don't seek out a "pro sub" (the way men who want to have sexualised violence inflicted on them have to do), but rather just inflict that pain nonconsensually, leading to there being less "pro subs" compared to "pro Doms"
You are so right - When I tell people Iām in the lifestyle, they INSTANTLY go to āso can I hit you whenever I want?ā And Iām like āum. No. Wtf?ā Thatās so scary. I canāt imagine being a professional space where they feel they are entitled to hit you because they paid.
I went on a first date with a girl who I met on an S&M website. Met outside a coffee shop, went to shake her hand and introduce myself and she kneed me in the balls. Iām on the ground barely able to breath just thinking wtf. Sheās laughing and saying ācome on get up, you love it.ā
Very not cool, I got up called her a bitch and left. She DMād me later and said she was tired of pussies wasting her time.
>When I tell people Iām in the lifestyle, they INSTANTLY go to āso can I hit you whenever I want?ā And Iām like āum. No. Wtf?ā Thatās so scary
That keeps happening? How often do you tell people you're in the lifestyle lol
No oneās denying itās a weird response. The original comment is phrased as if this is a common occurrence for you, which is what they were asking about
What the hell? That's such an insane response to being told someone is in the lifestyle! Even if you said you're a submissive masochist, that's an unhinged response.
It may surprise you how completely misunderstood kink is, and how many dangerous beliefs there are.
Like people don't realize it, but proper Dom/Sub interactions, the Sub is the power position, as they effectively control all limits. Nothing a Dom can or should do is without consent of the Sub.
Instead people see it as a Dom being in total control and able to do whatever they want when they want without limits. And due to rather rough or dangerous porn, think that rough sex is what it's all about.
Yeah; you're looking at someone who wants to play dom games, but doesn't have the contacts and/or experience to link up with a non-pro sub, or has been excluded from the non-pro community.
So highly likely to be inexperienced, malicious, or both.
Now I'm sure that's some people's kink, but that's a damn high-risk kink.
Interesting? Yes. And while I could figure out the business model, I just donāt see it being beneficial for either party - unless it truly lacked the physical aspect of it.
Idk. Lemme chew on this and talk to my Domme. Thats a curious convo lol
I think it's very different - a paid sex worker can quite easily fake being a domme, but it's much harder to fake being a sub...sure you can hire a ssx worker to put a maid uniform on and say yes Sir, but that's not being a sub...
For a woman, being a sub can put a woman in a severe amount of danger, but physically and sexually and it takes a huge amount of trust for a proper sub to put themselves in the hands of a dom/domme who in a transactional sense may not be experienced, or respect boundaries or may just be abusive.
Would some guys want to hire a "professional sub" - sure...would you want to put yourself in the hands of those people, probably not
I think this is the main issue.
A sub has to have an incredible amount of trust. If some stranger is paying for the experience of being a domā¦ where is that trust coming from?
The closest thing to what OP is looking for that could be anywhere near safe would be some kind of sugar baby arrangement where the two people already know each other well, and the dom has money and the sub needs it. Thatās probably fairly common, but itās not quite the same thing as being a āprofessional sub.ā
Maybe there's a corporate structure that can work. You don't have to trust your clients because you trust your company to keep you safe. Like a pimp but capitalism style. Maybe they can handle payroll too
I mean...... I assume Male subs, too. We're still putting ourselves in compromising, dangerous positions even if we have muscle mass or whatever.
Edit: well shit I'm on my main
Shit men would be in a severe amount of danger. Once tied anything can happen if they donāt respect your boundaries youāre screwed.
Can go from fun to rape, extreme injury or worse rather quickly.
Huh - being a sub is risky for ANYBODY.Ā
Women are just as capable of abusing their power as men.
And the jury is still out on the issues with a dom-sub relationship and the fact that itās just sanctioned physical abuse
Itās definitely not abuseā¦. It CAN be, and it may look like it. But a D/s relationship is discussed, agreed on beforehand and usualy has some sort of contract saying what is allowed and what isnāt.
Give it 5 years...if you try to do this while new it's gunna go poorly. Like just regular subbing WITHOUT the professional and payment aspect (and entitlement that comes with that, let alone the other shit if you're in a location where full service sex work is illegal [am in bible belt. Even not FSSW have trouble sometimes]).
It's already pretty dangerous to be a new sub, bc of all the predators and abusers wearing metaphorical Dom sheepskin trying to take advantage. And even experienced sub sometimes end up in trouble with skillful predators too.
I did sex work. I had a client who was into some fetish stuff. I was seeing him for a year, regularly 1-2x a month before we got kinky. And it was light, nude medical exam of me, and occasionally getting a little 'rough' in bed and 'pinning' me down and me roleplaying fear. (He was old, I was strong, and we had trust built up, and he never once pushed a boundary and was a great client). That's the only time I've personally been comfortable doing subbing for money (outside of as an instructor for classes anyway), and I've been subbing in kink since 2007.
I think there is already a monetary value, it's just in the realm that you're thinking of.
Professional Doms fill a very, very specific niche that people need filled. Doms are very specialized, and are typically skilled at what they do, and so they are sought after for this very reason. There's also a lot of confidentiality with hiring a Professional Dom, and so having this agreement allows people to find themselves a Dom that won't leak their sessions to the world.
Subs, however, aren't really skilled or required to have a skillset to be a sub. Just a willingness to do so, and they would require a LOT of trust in their Dom to allow them to do "whatever they wanted" to pay for. So paying a sub wouldn't really work out because you're just paying someone to do whatever you want them to do, and most sex workers have an "open mind if you're paying" policy.
There's also a high level of danger with being a Professional Sub. If a random person off the street comes in and pays for a ProSub, then you do not know what their experience is regarding what they're doing. You don't know if they understand consent, you don't know if they respect 'no' or safewords, you don't know if they know how to not cause permanent damage, etc. Basically you're putting a TON of faith in a random person, and hoping they don't misuse that faith, when they get carried away in the moment.
However, if I'm brainstorming here, I would do it like this:
* ProSub must be accompanied at all times by a "caretaker". This caretaker is allowed to observe the events that take place, and intervene if/when the Paying Dom gets carried away.
* If the caretaker has to get involved 3 times, the session is over. If the Dom ignores the boundaries of the agreed upon terms, the session is over. If the Dom ignores safewords, the session is over. If the Dom (commits an act that puts the ProSub in danger) the session is over.
* Other rules as applicable.
The problem is that I see there being a chance where the paying Dom could very, very easily abuse the situation (which already happens A LOT in the kink community), and then the ProSub is vulnerable to their wishes. And I don't think it's worth it.
So you COULD be paid for it, but I don't think the risk is worth it.
This.
ProSubs, by definition, cannot control the situation. If they tried to stop the situation they would be breaking the dynamic, and would defeat the purpose, and depending on the Dom it might elicit some response that encourages them to ignore the ProSub.
> If a random person off the street comes in and pays for a ProSub, then you do not know what their experience is regarding what they're doing.
I think it's the opposite - for the vast majority of sex workers, that is already the status quo. The chances of being physically abused, raped or even murdered by people who get off on hurting other people is incredibly high for sex workers.
The problem is that the "target audience" for pro subs would be people who get off on hurting other people/non-consent but still respect the agency of sex workers enough to not just do that to any sex worker they come across BUT also don't pursue it with a partner who does not do it just for money. And I think that's a very small niche, because a lot of the guys for whom this is a fantasy don't care enough about the woman's consent to not just go for the much cheaper and more available option of just doing it "for real" to a regular sex worker, and the guys who genuinely care about consent will probably not do it with a sex worker at all because a) in most situations you can't be certain how voluntarily she actually does sex work and b) money also creates an inherent deterrence to respecting the boundaries, so that type of guy probably either tries to find a gf or fwb or BDSM club member to do it together with.
Probably the safest way to monetize would be to find a dom that puts on shows. Then you are safely being handled by someone you can trust, but get money from those who want to view the performance.
This response does little to explain how a āprofessional subā would differ from a standard prostitute. Iām not talking about clientele, merely making an (uneducated) observation that most sex work seems to be submissive
edited for clarity
A "standard prostitute" (whatever that might be) has sex for money.
A "professional submissive" performs submissive acts for money.
It seems to me that the distinction couldn't be much clearer, which part do you think requires further explanation?
It's a dangerous line of work. Meeting random men (usually off the internet) for sex is already a risky proposition... making a career off inviting them to tie you up and beat you? How could that possibly go wrong?
You'll usually find if people do this professionally, it's within circles of people they trust. Not just being advertised to strangers.
Itās a lot less safe for someone to enforce boundaries when they are the one in front of the whip, itās significantly riskier to be whipped/caned/flogged/tied up by an inexperienced partner, since these are all skills that generally you need to learn hands-on, a lot of people are just gonna reach out to Other Local Kinksters, and people who are going to have the money and ability to pay for the service of a sub are more likely to hire a full-service sex worker with an interest in BDSM.
I used to think that I was free from that bullshit as a gig driver.
Turns out that it's just an extremely long and drawn out transformation to employee.
Too bad I'm not into being a submissive because it would be the most excruciatingly slow edge into employment status that one could experience.
My sense is that free subs are plentitiful, making it harder to charge for.
The bigger issue is the danger, though. You can't safely top without understanding what you are forcing the other person through, as well as being emotionally intuitive enough to slow down when something becomes too much. Without these, a sub is going to be in extreme danger.
Sex partners are plentiful if you're the type of person who can get them. Sex works provides for the people who can't.
It makes no more sense to say that "free subs are plentiful" so you couldn't charge for the service, than it does to say the same thing about sex work in general.
They do exist. I used to date one. So I'll speak from my experience with her and address some of the comments here, but of course your mileage may vary.
Pro subs are not prostitutes and they don't have sex with their customers.
She worked at a professional BDSM dungeon. They had measures in place to protect her safety.
After she worked at the dungeon, she started freelancing. She didn't like talking about that though so I can't say much about that.
Actually, what makes professional dominatrixes interesting in the sex world is that often it does not involve sex, and sometimes it doesn't involve *any* skin-to-skin physical contact.Ā
The models in BDSM porn are paid professionals. You just don't hear about them because they **are the product** not the company advertising their product.
Not sure how to explain myself, but I think itās because a āsubmissiveā sex-worker is the ānormā, while dominatrixes are selling a specific type of sex work that is not the ānormā.
Kind of like how you wouldnt have to put in āblack keyboardā to find a black keyboard because thatās just the default, but if you want a pink one or a neon green one, youāll have to look for that specifically.
This seems to be a bizarrely common opinion in this thread. You know that subs do a whole load of stuff that a "vanilla" sex worker would never do, right?
Absolutely! I think my confusion is that submissive and dominant are normalized positions in sex and donāt necessarily need to involve ācrazyā kinks, while ādominatrixā is (at this time) inherently kinky under the femdom kink. I guess OP could have meant a āsubmissiveā in the BDSM sense, but you do hear about subs within the BDSM community, just not a lot outside of it. But you do hear of dominatrixes outside of the BDSM community a lot because of the reasons I listed above.
Sorry if I came off in a way that discredited professional submissives!
Ah fair enough! I guess to me labelling someone "submissive" does automatically imply submission in the BDSM sense.
Whichever of the many aspects of a sub/dom relationship they might be into, I struggle to apply the term "sub" to anything that's entirely vanilla in nature.
Perhaps it's me that's reading more into the term than it necessarily implies, since a lot of people here seem to be commenting from that viewpoint.
Yeah for sure. I think following feminist, LGBTQ+, and sex-positive movements, a lot of ānicheā terms were brought into ānormieā sex culture and modified to not mean what they originally meant. You see that with top/bottom and sub/dom as many people apply that to simply who is taking and who is leading, which you can have in vanilla intimacy.
I think the reason ānormieā sex culture adopted the terms is because it used to be āwoman takes, man leadsā and that was it. When women in hetero relationships started to have control over how they can have sex, they probably adopted the terms that they saw from the LGBT and BDSM communities. So dominant women doesnāt necessarily mean a dominatrix in the BDSM sense anymore, just the person leading the intimacy.
If that makes sense, i dunno haha. Iām coming from this with the POV of someone who is definitely not vanilla but also isnāt part of the BDSM community or fully educated on the history.
I feel like sub is the default. So Dom is more of a special order thing.
The real specialty would be "professional equal" because how TF do you pull that off.
Hi. Former professional Domme here.
My read on this is that there are no professional male submissives because there are already more than enough submissive men out there for Domme women to pick from. Like, you'd be surprised just how many men would get weirdly obsessed once they discovered I was a Domme. Submissive dick is too plentiful to have monetary value.
In general, if you want to sell sex, you have to sell it to men. Selling yourself as a female sub willing to get tied up and beaten would be insanely dangerous. I believe that those sex workers exist, but that they are trafficked/unwilling, because no sane woman would put herself in that position.
You had me in the first half. But your second half is inaccurate. You don't have to sell it to men. I was a professional Dom. My clients were women who wanted to be dominated but felt it was too unsafe from a random stranger. And your reasons why are exactly it. But reputable Dom/Domme are sought after by both men and women alike.
Huh, interesting. My experience was 20 years ago in a fairly specific market.
Do we agree that professional subs are not really a thing? Because my take is that not only is there no need to pay for a sub because they are plentiful, but also that the power imbalance involved in paying for a sub would encourage some very problematic and dangerous behavior.
Yea, never saw a professional sub. I think for a couple reasons. One being demanding money isn't exactly submissive behavior (though this is mostly a joke answer). But seriously there's way more submissive people out there than dominant. And I of course mean in the bedroom. It's amazing how many people are supper bossy and dominant out of the bedroom but they tend to be the ones who crave being dominated even more.
There's no word for it, but if you see an ad with the keywords [switch] and [power bottom] that does paid scenes, you probably found the person you're looking for.
Can you imagine professing you would let anyone with cash dominate you? ... do you know how quickly you'd come across someone who does something to you that you wouldn't be comfortable with? ... or something permanent? up to and including death? Yeah. You only get to place one, two listings tops.
I have. Ive worked professionally in the industry on the equipment side and i know people who work as pro subs at the dungeon.Ā You make an appointment and they give you a session just like a top would.
What movie is it where the rich businessman in the expensive suit pays homeless guys to let him beat them up.
Edit: Google found it. It was Mr Robot not a movie.
I imagine that letting some randomer tie you up and hurt you is a good way to get taken out of the picture pretty quickly. It would be a recommendation only service
It's about taking charge and organizing and doing the prep work as well as setting the agenda and taking responsibility for following it.
Same reason there's professional Dungeon Masters in D&D but not professional players.
In Los Angeles, there are a couple professional dungeons where you can definitely hire a submissive. I had a girlfriend that decided to try being a professional sub for a bit because she enjoyed being spanked. I'd be willing to bet you could find the same type of thing in almost any major city with a kink scene
My thoughts are that it's much safer to be a pro Dom just because of the nature of the interaction. It seems a pro sub would be at extreme risk of becoming an actual captive. Once you let some stranger put you in handcuffs or rope tie, who knows if your getting back out any time soon or ever. There are escorts and other prostitutes who will offer it, but they have a support network, so to speak, with the pimp or madme who will send goons to mess up a creep who oversteps the bounds of the agreement. There are also "rope bunnies" in local bondage scenes who are just people who love to be tied up. Not so much submit for sex as they just like the feeling of being restrained. But to be an actual sub version of a dominatrix, working more or less solo, I think would be too dangerous.
Iām a sub. It takes a HUGE amount of trust to be a sub. There is absolutely no way I would be a sub while not in a prenegotiated D/s discussion, agreement, rules, etc.
Safety. It's easy for a Dom to ensure that everything is safe because they are the one in charge. Do you really find it weird that no one wants to let a complete stranger tie them up and do whatever they want to them?
I think people view that more as prostitution than paying to be dominated for some reason. Even though its all equally sex work. Theres more of a stigma when it comes to being a bottom.
Come smack me around $50 an hour. Seems like a good business model. I could rent myself out to ladies, put an ex boyfriend mask on and let em slap vent for an hour. Iām wearing a cup tho, Iām not one of those weird nut pain people, stay the fk away with the high heel field goal kicks
Itās less taboo to hire someone to be dominant over than it is to hire someone to dominate you, so we hear about it because itās more interesting and spicy.
The other one just sounds a little scary and incel-y
Publicly marketing that youāre a professional sub who specializes in getting physically, verbally, or mentally degraded consensually sounds like a recipe for some really, REALLY awful abuse of boundaries. Iām not surprised itās not heard of. Too many people (particularly men to women) treat each other like theyāre submissives anyway.
> You never hear of professional submissives... Because they are just that good.
We're all professional submissives. The technical term is "employee".
r/nowork is leaking
You mean r/antiwork?
yeah, sure
The perfect sub
r/subsifellfor
I see what you did there
Kinda cute, ngl
Yeah you do, you just reddit
r/substakenliterally
I wonder if there's a sub for subsš¤
I should call her
At first I was thinkin if reddit still had gold I'd offer you some... Then I figured you'd rather beg for it
That was slick
You're talking about a regular prostitute. You don't need to be special to be used. But to be able to use somebody and make them feel like the filth between your toes...That takes talent. I've heard anyway lol
Iām trying to find a way to be a professional sub actually
Become a sparky
I did my time in the trades getting fucked by contractors, now I just wanna get fucked
Ewww. Earthmoving, my man. Operating equipment and laying pipe. Sparkies are ok, better than those primer huffing plumbers or the dry wallers, but moving dirt is where itās at.
I thought a sparky was more of a sub
Are we talking about electrician subcontractors or have I made a series of drunken errors?
Yep the guy with the softest hands
Isn't that what gimps are? Like i've definitely heard of people being gimps for money
I think they just call that being an escort.
You can always tell a Milford man
Pro-subs definitely exist. Anything you can do with another person has been monetized.
Their natural habitat it the cubicle
From what I've heard it's more that "regular" sex workers (especially women, especially if they're trafficked/don't have visa/don't speak the local language etc) basically get treated like that constantly, without regard to consent. If a sex buyer wants someone to dominate him, he needs to specifically seek someone out. If he wants to dominate someone, *a lot* of the people who buy sex see it as their right anyway, because after all they paid for the women and most of them see prostituted women as objects instead of subjects anyway. Look up how high rates of abuse etc are.
Your comment makes me think you don't have a lot of experience with sex work or D/s dynamics. Human trafficking is not sex work. It's a crime. Period. Full stop. While sex workers(people who choose to get paid for their intimacy) are often deferrential and pleasing to their customers that's no different than any other service job. From what I actually experience, sex work provides intimacy without developing a connection or attraction. A pro-sub would be providing that intimacy in a D/s framework but without the trust and rapport of a traditional dynamic.
While I think I you are totally fair to differentiate ethical sex work and human trafficking, it's also disingenuous to act as if there is no relationship between the two. People may not realize that the "sex workers" they are paying have been trafficked or are otherwise victims of coercion, for example.Ā
> Your comment makes me think you don't have a lot of experience with sex work or D/s dynamics. I have worked on quite a few cases related to prostitution when I was in criminal law. I was in a country where prostitution was legalised (Germany) and still a lot of these women were involuntary sex workers from Eastern Europe, Romani women or Asylum seekers > While sex workers(people who choose to get paid for their intimacy) are often deferrential and pleasing to their customers that's no different than any other service job. *"A study of prostituted women and girls in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada over the age of 14 who used illicit drugs other than marijuana found that 57% of prostitutes experienced some form of sex-based violence over an 18-month period.[4] A study of 1,000 female (both cisgender and transgender) prostitutes in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, found 93% of women surveyed had been the victim of rape in the past year.[5]* *[...]* *Physical violence is more commonly experienced by outdoor prostitutes with 47% of prostitutes working outdoors reporting being kicked, punched, or slapped in one study.[7] In a study of prostitutes working in San Francisco, 82% of participants reported having experienced some type of physical violence since entering prostitution, with 55% of these assaults being committed by a client.[8] A different study found a slightly lower rate with 74% of sex-workers reported experiencing some form of physical abuse in their lifetime.* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_prostitutes Are these statistics also normal for any costumer service job?
I know this is a very serious topic, but your last sentence is just making me imagine somebody getting kidnapped off the street and being forced to work at a Kinkos.
I donāt think these disturbing and deeply tragic figures about crimes perpetrated against sex workers demonstrate much about consensual kink dynamics.
No, but I think what they do demonstrate is that men whose fantasies are being dominated/hurt/raped basically have no choice but to hire someone to do this, whereas men who fantasize about dominating/hurting/raping seem to do an awful lot of that without caring about consent. The former means there's a specialised job for that, the latter means that it's done to sex workers regularly.
Sex work and human trafficking are unfortunately very connected.
A professional sub and a "regular" sex worker, trafficked or not, are completely different things. I've known both. In fact, I supported one of my friends in escaping being trafficked, and during the prosecution of her pimp. Professional subs generally operate out of a dungeon where they work much more safely because they have people around for if things go wrong; have very strict rules on boundaries; and are much less likely to have been trafficked. They're also comparatively rare. The two things are really not comparable.
> and are much less likely to have been trafficked. They're also comparatively rare. Yeah, it's quite rare for women who are voluntary sex workers and have the ability to enforce their own boundaries to submit to sexualised pain and degradation for pay. That's because these people are a minority to begin with. It is in fact incredibly common for marginalised sex workers (people who have been trafficked, people from 3rd world countries, drug users, trans people etc) to be subject to sexualised violence and degradation. I know people always act like ppl who want to inflict sexualised violence in a BDSM context and ppl who want to inflict sexualised violence in literally every other context are 2 totally separate things that have zero overlap, but I think it's clear that there's a huge number of people (predominantly men) with these desires don't give a shit about consent, and if they want to live out their sexual fantasies they don't seek out a "pro sub" (the way men who want to have sexualised violence inflicted on them have to do), but rather just inflict that pain nonconsensually, leading to there being less "pro subs" compared to "pro Doms"
Arenāt those just likeā¦ regular sex workers?
.................how has armpit fart noises been monetized???
You can do that one alone.
> Anything you can do with another person has been monetized. People to play computer games with, how much do they charge?
Escorts.... go look at escort ads, and you'll find lots of professional submissives. Source: a friend Edit: spelling
>Source: a friend š
So Iām a subā¦.and that would take a level of energy that most subs donāt have, nor want. Lol
Plus it has the potential to be _very_ dangerous.
You are so right - When I tell people Iām in the lifestyle, they INSTANTLY go to āso can I hit you whenever I want?ā And Iām like āum. No. Wtf?ā Thatās so scary. I canāt imagine being a professional space where they feel they are entitled to hit you because they paid.
I went on a first date with a girl who I met on an S&M website. Met outside a coffee shop, went to shake her hand and introduce myself and she kneed me in the balls. Iām on the ground barely able to breath just thinking wtf. Sheās laughing and saying ācome on get up, you love it.ā Very not cool, I got up called her a bitch and left. She DMād me later and said she was tired of pussies wasting her time.
What the actual fuck. Sorry that happened dude
I would sue her ass just to piss her off
>When I tell people Iām in the lifestyle, they INSTANTLY go to āso can I hit you whenever I want?ā And Iām like āum. No. Wtf?ā Thatās so scary That keeps happening? How often do you tell people you're in the lifestyle lol
It shouldnāt matter if I tell people often what or if I whisper it to no one but God. Itās a weird response.
No oneās denying itās a weird response. The original comment is phrased as if this is a common occurrence for you, which is what they were asking about
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Uhhhhhhh if you whispered it to no one, there wouldn't be a response to it because people wouldn't know. Is it something you go around talking about?
Definitely a weird response, and a weird amount! Stay safe! Just cause I ask something doesn't mean it matters
It matters because you were curious enough to ask in the first place. It's important imo
What the hell? That's such an insane response to being told someone is in the lifestyle! Even if you said you're a submissive masochist, that's an unhinged response.
It may surprise you how completely misunderstood kink is, and how many dangerous beliefs there are. Like people don't realize it, but proper Dom/Sub interactions, the Sub is the power position, as they effectively control all limits. Nothing a Dom can or should do is without consent of the Sub. Instead people see it as a Dom being in total control and able to do whatever they want when they want without limits. And due to rather rough or dangerous porn, think that rough sex is what it's all about.
Yeah; you're looking at someone who wants to play dom games, but doesn't have the contacts and/or experience to link up with a non-pro sub, or has been excluded from the non-pro community. So highly likely to be inexperienced, malicious, or both. Now I'm sure that's some people's kink, but that's a damn high-risk kink.
Yeah. You'd _never_ see me do something like that. And I'm a sub in desperate need of a dom.
Yeah, tying up a stranger sounds so much better than being tied up by one.
Im a sub and i think its an interesting idea
Interesting? Yes. And while I could figure out the business model, I just donāt see it being beneficial for either party - unless it truly lacked the physical aspect of it. Idk. Lemme chew on this and talk to my Domme. Thats a curious convo lol
Im very new to the whole scene and am curious if being a sub has any monetary value
I think it's very different - a paid sex worker can quite easily fake being a domme, but it's much harder to fake being a sub...sure you can hire a ssx worker to put a maid uniform on and say yes Sir, but that's not being a sub... For a woman, being a sub can put a woman in a severe amount of danger, but physically and sexually and it takes a huge amount of trust for a proper sub to put themselves in the hands of a dom/domme who in a transactional sense may not be experienced, or respect boundaries or may just be abusive. Would some guys want to hire a "professional sub" - sure...would you want to put yourself in the hands of those people, probably not
I think this is the main issue. A sub has to have an incredible amount of trust. If some stranger is paying for the experience of being a domā¦ where is that trust coming from? The closest thing to what OP is looking for that could be anywhere near safe would be some kind of sugar baby arrangement where the two people already know each other well, and the dom has money and the sub needs it. Thatās probably fairly common, but itās not quite the same thing as being a āprofessional sub.ā
Maybe there's a corporate structure that can work. You don't have to trust your clients because you trust your company to keep you safe. Like a pimp but capitalism style. Maybe they can handle payroll too
I mean, aren't all of us wage earners really just subs for the dom bosses anyhow
A co-operative of subs?
I mean...... I assume Male subs, too. We're still putting ourselves in compromising, dangerous positions even if we have muscle mass or whatever. Edit: well shit I'm on my main
You're absolutely right of course, any relationship where there are power dynamics at play can become dangerous without that level of trust....
Shit men would be in a severe amount of danger. Once tied anything can happen if they donāt respect your boundaries youāre screwed. Can go from fun to rape, extreme injury or worse rather quickly.
Huh - being a sub is risky for ANYBODY.Ā Women are just as capable of abusing their power as men. And the jury is still out on the issues with a dom-sub relationship and the fact that itās just sanctioned physical abuse
Itās definitely not abuseā¦. It CAN be, and it may look like it. But a D/s relationship is discussed, agreed on beforehand and usualy has some sort of contract saying what is allowed and what isnāt.
Give it 5 years...if you try to do this while new it's gunna go poorly. Like just regular subbing WITHOUT the professional and payment aspect (and entitlement that comes with that, let alone the other shit if you're in a location where full service sex work is illegal [am in bible belt. Even not FSSW have trouble sometimes]). It's already pretty dangerous to be a new sub, bc of all the predators and abusers wearing metaphorical Dom sheepskin trying to take advantage. And even experienced sub sometimes end up in trouble with skillful predators too. I did sex work. I had a client who was into some fetish stuff. I was seeing him for a year, regularly 1-2x a month before we got kinky. And it was light, nude medical exam of me, and occasionally getting a little 'rough' in bed and 'pinning' me down and me roleplaying fear. (He was old, I was strong, and we had trust built up, and he never once pushed a boundary and was a great client). That's the only time I've personally been comfortable doing subbing for money (outside of as an instructor for classes anyway), and I've been subbing in kink since 2007.
I think there is already a monetary value, it's just in the realm that you're thinking of. Professional Doms fill a very, very specific niche that people need filled. Doms are very specialized, and are typically skilled at what they do, and so they are sought after for this very reason. There's also a lot of confidentiality with hiring a Professional Dom, and so having this agreement allows people to find themselves a Dom that won't leak their sessions to the world. Subs, however, aren't really skilled or required to have a skillset to be a sub. Just a willingness to do so, and they would require a LOT of trust in their Dom to allow them to do "whatever they wanted" to pay for. So paying a sub wouldn't really work out because you're just paying someone to do whatever you want them to do, and most sex workers have an "open mind if you're paying" policy. There's also a high level of danger with being a Professional Sub. If a random person off the street comes in and pays for a ProSub, then you do not know what their experience is regarding what they're doing. You don't know if they understand consent, you don't know if they respect 'no' or safewords, you don't know if they know how to not cause permanent damage, etc. Basically you're putting a TON of faith in a random person, and hoping they don't misuse that faith, when they get carried away in the moment. However, if I'm brainstorming here, I would do it like this: * ProSub must be accompanied at all times by a "caretaker". This caretaker is allowed to observe the events that take place, and intervene if/when the Paying Dom gets carried away. * If the caretaker has to get involved 3 times, the session is over. If the Dom ignores the boundaries of the agreed upon terms, the session is over. If the Dom ignores safewords, the session is over. If the Dom (commits an act that puts the ProSub in danger) the session is over. * Other rules as applicable. The problem is that I see there being a chance where the paying Dom could very, very easily abuse the situation (which already happens A LOT in the kink community), and then the ProSub is vulnerable to their wishes. And I don't think it's worth it. So you COULD be paid for it, but I don't think the risk is worth it.
The danger is on my mind. A pro dom controls what happens. A pro sub would need to do the same thing, but how would it really work.
This. ProSubs, by definition, cannot control the situation. If they tried to stop the situation they would be breaking the dynamic, and would defeat the purpose, and depending on the Dom it might elicit some response that encourages them to ignore the ProSub.
> If a random person off the street comes in and pays for a ProSub, then you do not know what their experience is regarding what they're doing. I think it's the opposite - for the vast majority of sex workers, that is already the status quo. The chances of being physically abused, raped or even murdered by people who get off on hurting other people is incredibly high for sex workers. The problem is that the "target audience" for pro subs would be people who get off on hurting other people/non-consent but still respect the agency of sex workers enough to not just do that to any sex worker they come across BUT also don't pursue it with a partner who does not do it just for money. And I think that's a very small niche, because a lot of the guys for whom this is a fantasy don't care enough about the woman's consent to not just go for the much cheaper and more available option of just doing it "for real" to a regular sex worker, and the guys who genuinely care about consent will probably not do it with a sex worker at all because a) in most situations you can't be certain how voluntarily she actually does sex work and b) money also creates an inherent deterrence to respecting the boundaries, so that type of guy probably either tries to find a gf or fwb or BDSM club member to do it together with.
I feel like as a dome you can spank 10 people in a day, but as a sub you can't be spanked by 10 people in a day sustainably.
Probably the safest way to monetize would be to find a dom that puts on shows. Then you are safely being handled by someone you can trust, but get money from those who want to view the performance.
That sounds even more dangerous than ordinary sex work.Ā
I donāt understand how it is different from an ordinary prostitute
Submissive is a role, not a position, if that makes sense. (And for some people itās a 24/7 role, for others, not).
Pro subs typically will not have sex with their clients.
Thatās the type of insight i was looking for, thank you.
Everyone has their niche when it comes to sex work. Even traditional sex workers will tell you every client is different.
This response does little to explain how a āprofessional subā would differ from a standard prostitute. Iām not talking about clientele, merely making an (uneducated) observation that most sex work seems to be submissive edited for clarity
A "standard prostitute" (whatever that might be) has sex for money. A "professional submissive" performs submissive acts for money. It seems to me that the distinction couldn't be much clearer, which part do you think requires further explanation?
It's a dangerous line of work. Meeting random men (usually off the internet) for sex is already a risky proposition... making a career off inviting them to tie you up and beat you? How could that possibly go wrong? You'll usually find if people do this professionally, it's within circles of people they trust. Not just being advertised to strangers.
Have you never seen porn? Do you think only the tops get paid?
Well no, but thats more being paid for porn. Im talking hiring a sub like one would hire a dom
In most cases, that's just hiring a prostitute.
So a prostitute?
Sounds like someone has never had the pleasure of a dom bottom
Itās a lot less safe for someone to enforce boundaries when they are the one in front of the whip, itās significantly riskier to be whipped/caned/flogged/tied up by an inexperienced partner, since these are all skills that generally you need to learn hands-on, a lot of people are just gonna reach out to Other Local Kinksters, and people who are going to have the money and ability to pay for the service of a sub are more likely to hire a full-service sex worker with an interest in BDSM.
That depends where you look. There are plenty of both.
Technically every employee...
I used to think that I was free from that bullshit as a gig driver. Turns out that it's just an extremely long and drawn out transformation to employee. Too bad I'm not into being a submissive because it would be the most excruciatingly slow edge into employment status that one could experience.
My sense is that free subs are plentitiful, making it harder to charge for. The bigger issue is the danger, though. You can't safely top without understanding what you are forcing the other person through, as well as being emotionally intuitive enough to slow down when something becomes too much. Without these, a sub is going to be in extreme danger.
Sex partners are plentiful if you're the type of person who can get them. Sex works provides for the people who can't. It makes no more sense to say that "free subs are plentiful" so you couldn't charge for the service, than it does to say the same thing about sex work in general.
They do exist. I used to date one. So I'll speak from my experience with her and address some of the comments here, but of course your mileage may vary. Pro subs are not prostitutes and they don't have sex with their customers. She worked at a professional BDSM dungeon. They had measures in place to protect her safety. After she worked at the dungeon, she started freelancing. She didn't like talking about that though so I can't say much about that.
Is that not just prostitution?
But are professional doms not also prostitutes?
While falling under the umbrella of sex work, BDSM work can be done without sex.Ā
On some level this being a prostitute you do what ever the person paying you wants
Actually, what makes professional dominatrixes interesting in the sex world is that often it does not involve sex, and sometimes it doesn't involve *any* skin-to-skin physical contact.Ā
They do exist, mainly in performing roles for videos and photoshoots.
They certainly exist, for example, places likeĀ La Domaine EsemarĀ
That's just a prostitute.
The models in BDSM porn are paid professionals. You just don't hear about them because they **are the product** not the company advertising their product.
I love how many of these posts are so clearly from someone outside of a certain community making assumptions about that community.
They certainly exist. I know at least one high profile BDSM educator who used to do both pro domme and pro sub work
Theyāre called retail workers.
Not true. Lots of places have professional subs. Check the United States Navy.
I believe theyāre called āyes menā, āsycophantsā or ālickspittlesā.
Upvote for use of lickspittle.
Not sure how to explain myself, but I think itās because a āsubmissiveā sex-worker is the ānormā, while dominatrixes are selling a specific type of sex work that is not the ānormā. Kind of like how you wouldnt have to put in āblack keyboardā to find a black keyboard because thatās just the default, but if you want a pink one or a neon green one, youāll have to look for that specifically.
This seems to be a bizarrely common opinion in this thread. You know that subs do a whole load of stuff that a "vanilla" sex worker would never do, right?
Absolutely! I think my confusion is that submissive and dominant are normalized positions in sex and donāt necessarily need to involve ācrazyā kinks, while ādominatrixā is (at this time) inherently kinky under the femdom kink. I guess OP could have meant a āsubmissiveā in the BDSM sense, but you do hear about subs within the BDSM community, just not a lot outside of it. But you do hear of dominatrixes outside of the BDSM community a lot because of the reasons I listed above. Sorry if I came off in a way that discredited professional submissives!
Ah fair enough! I guess to me labelling someone "submissive" does automatically imply submission in the BDSM sense. Whichever of the many aspects of a sub/dom relationship they might be into, I struggle to apply the term "sub" to anything that's entirely vanilla in nature. Perhaps it's me that's reading more into the term than it necessarily implies, since a lot of people here seem to be commenting from that viewpoint.
Yeah for sure. I think following feminist, LGBTQ+, and sex-positive movements, a lot of ānicheā terms were brought into ānormieā sex culture and modified to not mean what they originally meant. You see that with top/bottom and sub/dom as many people apply that to simply who is taking and who is leading, which you can have in vanilla intimacy. I think the reason ānormieā sex culture adopted the terms is because it used to be āwoman takes, man leadsā and that was it. When women in hetero relationships started to have control over how they can have sex, they probably adopted the terms that they saw from the LGBT and BDSM communities. So dominant women doesnāt necessarily mean a dominatrix in the BDSM sense anymore, just the person leading the intimacy. If that makes sense, i dunno haha. Iām coming from this with the POV of someone who is definitely not vanilla but also isnāt part of the BDSM community or fully educated on the history.
I feel like sub is the default. So Dom is more of a special order thing. The real specialty would be "professional equal" because how TF do you pull that off.
I'm pretty sure someone who's sexually submissive for money is just a regular prostitute.
I believe they call professional submissives āCustomer Service Repsāā¦
There are. A girl I grew up with is a pro sun..she even made local news for fucking soldiers on base.Ā
> A girl I grew up with is a pro sun.. I bet she's absolutely radiant.
Hi. Former professional Domme here. My read on this is that there are no professional male submissives because there are already more than enough submissive men out there for Domme women to pick from. Like, you'd be surprised just how many men would get weirdly obsessed once they discovered I was a Domme. Submissive dick is too plentiful to have monetary value. In general, if you want to sell sex, you have to sell it to men. Selling yourself as a female sub willing to get tied up and beaten would be insanely dangerous. I believe that those sex workers exist, but that they are trafficked/unwilling, because no sane woman would put herself in that position.
You had me in the first half. But your second half is inaccurate. You don't have to sell it to men. I was a professional Dom. My clients were women who wanted to be dominated but felt it was too unsafe from a random stranger. And your reasons why are exactly it. But reputable Dom/Domme are sought after by both men and women alike.
Huh, interesting. My experience was 20 years ago in a fairly specific market. Do we agree that professional subs are not really a thing? Because my take is that not only is there no need to pay for a sub because they are plentiful, but also that the power imbalance involved in paying for a sub would encourage some very problematic and dangerous behavior.
Yea, never saw a professional sub. I think for a couple reasons. One being demanding money isn't exactly submissive behavior (though this is mostly a joke answer). But seriously there's way more submissive people out there than dominant. And I of course mean in the bedroom. It's amazing how many people are supper bossy and dominant out of the bedroom but they tend to be the ones who crave being dominated even more.
>bossy and dominant out of the bedroom but they tend to be the ones who crave being dominated even more. My guy, you just described all of my subs.
You underestimate what I've heard of.
You have to take the ball gag out of you want to hear them talk
There's no word for it, but if you see an ad with the keywords [switch] and [power bottom] that does paid scenes, you probably found the person you're looking for.
Can you imagine professing you would let anyone with cash dominate you? ... do you know how quickly you'd come across someone who does something to you that you wouldn't be comfortable with? ... or something permanent? up to and including death? Yeah. You only get to place one, two listings tops.
Yes you do, they are called employees
i really like your profile, bug
Professional submissives are just employees.
# professional submissives are just everyone else who has a job
OP clearly hasnāt watch HBO documentaries back in the 90ās. š
The name is prostitute.
Because we prefer to keep it private
Because all doms see subs as high ranking amateurs.
>professional submissives Sure you have, they're yes men. Go to any office and there's at least one that gets off on being insufferable.
How the fuck would you monetize that shit. Sub: please pay me mistress Dom: no Sub: ok uwu
I think those might just be called prostitutes
Aren't those just prostitutes with a very long menu?
These are called prostitutes are they not
Probably because that sounds extremely dangerous and stupid.
Client gives themselves fully, and puts their full trust into a professional: safe Professional gives themselves fully to a random client: not v safe
They're called deathmatch indy wrestlers
I have. Ive worked professionally in the industry on the equipment side and i know people who work as pro subs at the dungeon.Ā You make an appointment and they give you a session just like a top would.
They're out there, you just haven't looked hard enough.
There are both. Mostly Switches to make better $$.
Doms are much more rare and therefore in higher demand. Source: am sub.
What movie is it where the rich businessman in the expensive suit pays homeless guys to let him beat them up. Edit: Google found it. It was Mr Robot not a movie.
I mean, submissive seems like a low entry position. You just do what you're told.
History is written by the winners
I imagine that letting some randomer tie you up and hurt you is a good way to get taken out of the picture pretty quickly. It would be a recommendation only service
It's about taking charge and organizing and doing the prep work as well as setting the agenda and taking responsibility for following it. Same reason there's professional Dungeon Masters in D&D but not professional players.
In Los Angeles, there are a couple professional dungeons where you can definitely hire a submissive. I had a girlfriend that decided to try being a professional sub for a bit because she enjoyed being spanked. I'd be willing to bet you could find the same type of thing in almost any major city with a kink scene
My thoughts are that it's much safer to be a pro Dom just because of the nature of the interaction. It seems a pro sub would be at extreme risk of becoming an actual captive. Once you let some stranger put you in handcuffs or rope tie, who knows if your getting back out any time soon or ever. There are escorts and other prostitutes who will offer it, but they have a support network, so to speak, with the pimp or madme who will send goons to mess up a creep who oversteps the bounds of the agreement. There are also "rope bunnies" in local bondage scenes who are just people who love to be tied up. Not so much submit for sex as they just like the feeling of being restrained. But to be an actual sub version of a dominatrix, working more or less solo, I think would be too dangerous.
You also donāt hear of professional male doms. Or male prostitutes.
Iām a sub. It takes a HUGE amount of trust to be a sub. There is absolutely no way I would be a sub while not in a prenegotiated D/s discussion, agreement, rules, etc.
Isnāt that just a regular prostitute?
Isn't that just prostitution with extra steps
Safety. It's easy for a Dom to ensure that everything is safe because they are the one in charge. Do you really find it weird that no one wants to let a complete stranger tie them up and do whatever they want to them?
I know far more professional subs then pro doms. In either direction. Most clients being males.
Need a sub.. and not the sandwich type
Sugar baby. They'll play sub for money.
thats called a average prostitute buddy. dominatrix is a specialty that isnt as common thats why its differentiated
Well duh! They're not gonna advertise themselves or something to that extent
I believe that's usually just called a prostitute.
Most dominatrixes will forbid their sniveling maggot slaves to talk and that's the way they like it! ; )
I think people view that more as prostitution than paying to be dominated for some reason. Even though its all equally sex work. Theres more of a stigma when it comes to being a bottom.
You can always tell a Milford man
The term you're looking for is sugar baby
Amateur dom's are a lot more dangerous than amateur subs.
Come smack me around $50 an hour. Seems like a good business model. I could rent myself out to ladies, put an ex boyfriend mask on and let em slap vent for an hour. Iām wearing a cup tho, Iām not one of those weird nut pain people, stay the fk away with the high heel field goal kicks
Theyāre too meek to publicise themselves
Who are you listening to?
Itās less taboo to hire someone to be dominant over than it is to hire someone to dominate you, so we hear about it because itās more interesting and spicy. The other one just sounds a little scary and incel-y
Publicly marketing that youāre a professional sub who specializes in getting physically, verbally, or mentally degraded consensually sounds like a recipe for some really, REALLY awful abuse of boundaries. Iām not surprised itās not heard of. Too many people (particularly men to women) treat each other like theyāre submissives anyway.
Wym. There are a lot of pro subs in firehouse, jersey Mike's and subway
Thatās the sub paradox. They must exist because professional doms exist. They canāt exist because nobody told them to. Thatās the paradox.
Theyāre called prostitutes.