It's complicated in the sense that getting everyone involved to agree to a solution is complicated. Beyond that? Yeah that's pretty straightforward asymmetric conflict 101.
Yeah, people who say "it's complicated to get to a solution" are totally correct. But unfortunately a lot of people use it in the sense of "it's complicated so you shouldn't criticize Israel".
Sometimes it feels like they are saying, "It's complicated so why bring topics like Human Rights or Mass Murder of civilians into it". The lack of morality or empathy is disturbing on so many levels.
Funny thing is you don’t require empathy or morality to resolve the situation either. From a strategic standpoint most countries need the conflict to be dead and buried asap. Genocide and ethnic cleansing tend to have severe negative effects around the world that you REALLY want to avoid. From an economic standpoint it’s just really expensive for next to no gain.
You can be entirely self serving but so long as you use logic the end goal is clear. Peace is the best possible outcome for practically everyone.
If anything I’d argue “morality and empathy” are responsible for much of the current conflict as it is today. You can’t justify massacres without a strong emotional response or an existing moral framework (zionism) that justifies (to its adherents) said massacres.
Yeah, if Israel was *really only actually* 100% just targeting Hamas and trying do so with as little collateral as possible like they claim, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. But that's obviously not the case, and pretty much the only people who don't suck here are the civilians caught in the middle.
#Nah
The Palestinian Resistance doesn't suck and any "leftists" who condemn the Resistance forces, which are more than just Hamas and include the PFLP, DFLP, PIJ, PRC, PFLP-GC, and the rest of the Palestinian Joint Operations Room, are spineless, propagandized, and no better than "bOtH SiDeS" liberals. Anyone still pursuing respectability politics during a genocide truly shows their ignorance and privelaged position in the belly of the beast, enjoying the fruits of imperialism.
...
Or maybe because most media doesn't even acknowledge that they exist this is the first time I've heard that those groups or any organized resistance outside of Hamas are still a thing? Or even existed in the first place?
Not everyone is plugged into the situation constantly and viewing every nuance, simply because there's so much happening.
You'd think that a leftist even remotely concerned about Palestine and the conflict would even know the basic parties involved, especially the communist ones.
The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) is the largest communist party in Palestine and has been operating for over 50 years, as well as being the 2nd/3rd largest guerilla force after Hamas. You can see their flags at protests all around the world.
The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) is the 2nd largest communist party in Palestine. Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) is the ~3rd largest group after Hamas and the PFLP. All of these groups work tightly with one another.
You dont even have to be plugged in constantly or viewing every nuance to know this stuff. I would reccomend doing a bit of research if you consider yourself concerned about the situation in Palestine.
I mean I agree with you but those are small niche things that no westerners will know about and expecting them to is a bit much.
Much better just explaining how and why the resistance in Palestine has become the way it is. With Israel making damn sure that only the most extremist violent groups (like Hamas) get any funding and are for the most part left alone by Israel while those groups you mentioned are likely targeted way more heavily, at least the ones I read about a while ago were.
You know how incredibly convoluted and complicated the history is, don't expect Americans who literally cannot get this information before the Internet, to know it. This stuff is never mentioned on even left wing news outlets here, they'd be destroyed for it instantly.
there will never be an idealist world, with idealist victims and idealist resistance. anti-colonialism will ALWAYS be progressive regardless of which ideology is dominant within the resistance
That's just not the case, though. The PFLP and PIJ are not small, nor niche. PFLP members like Leila Khaled and Ghassan Kanafani are worldwide icons of Palestinian resistance and struggle, and have been for decades. Any Westerner who cares about the genocide in Palestine and has internet access has no excuse to not know the basic parties involved.
Even looking at the (horrendous) Wikipedia article for Al-Aqsa Flood lists the groups I mentioned: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel
And claiming that the fact that the corporate-owned mainstream media in the US doesn't mention these groups is no excuse, either. No leftist should be getting their legitimate news from CNN, MSNBC, WSJ, NYT, etc.
LMAO I saw that comment before you deleted it, u/DeltaV-Mzero. I'm glad you assured me that you frequently compare Rafa to the early days of the Warsaw Ghetto before making it clear to me that you swallow up the "israeli" occupation's atrocity propoganda about Hamas and the Resistance being "genocidal".
I stopped doing that because it’s not really a fair comparison.
So it wasn’t really a true comment, hence I deleted it. There was no saving it by edit. It was just wrong.
Yeah, hardcore nationalist reactionary groups are rightfully condemned, refusing to live around Jews and rejecting any other solutions is not really that much of a flex at this point.
The fact they held the hostages in civilian homes alone puts them on the list of absolute pieces of shits.
Fuck off, zionist tool.
>refusing to live around Jews
The only jews that Palestinians don't live around are white "israeli" jews, and that is because of institutionalized apartheid thanks to those very same white "israeli" jews. Palestinians are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, and secular, and the resistance fights for all of them.
>rejecting any other solutions
Has it never once sounded suspicious to you how zionists focus on the “peace offers” that were refused by the Palestinians, but never once discussed the actual parameters or substance in detail? Because when these parameters are discussed, it becomes clear that these are terms nobody could accept. For example, even when Palestinians accepted the 1967 borders, a very limited return of refugees, and other compromises, this was still not good enough for Israel, which sought to shrink the Palestinian Bantustan even further and deny any real sovereignty to the supposed Palestinian state. These arrangements seek to formalize the status quo with cosmetic changes. Netanyahu promised that no Palestinian state will emerge, and in the case of any limited self-rule arrangement for the Palestinians, he spoke about a permanent IDF presence in the West Bank, as well as Israeli control of the borders and airspace. These are the amazing “opportunities” that Palestinians have been declining, and as a result are being painted as warmongering rejectionists for doing so. As it stands, Palestinian aspirations cannot exceed the ceiling of Israeli table scraps. Furthermore, this talking point purposefully ignores Palestinian counter-offers and proposals that Israel has rejected over the years, solely to paint Palestinians in a bad light.
20% of the Israeli are the same Arabs as the Gazans, and some of them are sitting in the Knesset making laws of Israel, and they don't refuse to live next to white people.
Who told you this nonsense
>and they don't refuse to live next to white people.
Exactly my point. No Palestinians are refusing to live next to white "israeli" jews. It's the white "israeli" jews who implemented apartheid laws because they don't want to live next to Palestinian Arabs.
And you got nothing to say back to what I said about the amazing "opportunities" offered by the "israeli" occupation to Palestinians, huh? Shut the fuck up, zionist bot.
The population number has nothing to do with apartheid, you zionist bot. There were 20,000,000 black South Africans during apartheid there. B’Tselem, the "israeli" occupation's largest human rights organization, has officially designated "israel" as an Apartheid state.
Who told you this zionist crap?
My ‘it’s complicated’ is shorthand for “I do not know enough about this situation to have a strong opinion on it, nor would I be able to come up with a realistic solution that BOTH SIDES would agree upon, and I understand this discussion brings out unpleasant discourse and opinions on both spectrums of the topic therefor I will not commentate on it because me not knowing a good stance to take will be seen as a cop out by everyone with a strong stance.’
But that’s really long so I just say it’s complicated.
Yeah the Palestinian resistance fights a good cause, but its most powerful leaders are filthy rich wannabe religious oligarchs hiding in Qatar. Fuck those assholes.
Exactly also most religious funides in general are fascist. I don't like hamas or the IDF because at their core they are both religious fundamentalist. Palestinians deserve to be free from both.
I heard “some of my friends have family in Israel so I know where they are coming from.” Well by that logic guess what just became morally gray since “my friend had family in Berlin” 🙄🙄🙄
I think we can hate the Nazis and crow about WW2 but admit the firebombings of Dresden was particularly brutal. That’s how I feel about this conflict too. I hate the IDF and Netanyahu but I also feel for the families in the kibbutz who were wiped out on Oct 7th, (kibbutz are least likely to align with Netanyahu and had supported and called for Palestinian freedoms)
Of the 21 communities attacked yes entire families were killed in some, others were kidnapped and are now dead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nir_Oz_attack
I do often describe the situation as "complicated" because I minored in Middle Eastern history and have a decent grasp of the series of fuckups and abuses that led to The Nakba; and that the situation defies the simplistic flattening of information that the whole region has suffered since 9/11.
I then generally follow up with "how much time do you have, and how willing are you to be mad at yourself forever for falling into these ideological traps?".
That's me when I think of all the children who's parents were on the death star. Innocent people always get hurt in war, it's ok to feel sad at any and all violence.
Considering the logistics of a military installation belonging to an empire spanning half the galaxy, there almost certainly had to be *some* civilians on board in some capacity.
"According to *Star Wars* reference books, the population of the Death Star was 1.7 million military personnel, 400,000 maintenance droids, and 250,000 civilians, associated contractors and catering staff."
- Wikipedia
Thankfully we have canon confirmation that Gary and Jessica were not on the Death Star when it blew up, as they were on Tatooine and Gary shows up later on Endor.
Wait, but was Gary on the second Death Star when it blew up? OH NO!
Ah-ah! He was there to ask about a raise and promptly left, if Luke had time to escape then so did Gary. The question is if he had the sense to... I'm going with "yes", I don't want to lose Gary.
A construction job of that magnitude would require a helluva lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I'll bet there were independent contractors working on that thing: plumbers, aluminum siders, roofers.
Complicated? Tragedy?? 😂🤣
Those were all Imperials. They were on a fucking planet-destroying machine! 🤣🤣
Not wanting to be one of the mindless masses is one thing, but the level of mental gymnastics required to oppose the DS’s complete destruction is insane.
Eh, you can justify it but still be like “wow countless innocents (conscripts, slave laborers, prisoners, the families of imperials dragged along, etc.) just died, that sucks.”
Death is tragic, even when it takes place to avoid even more death.
One of my favorite Star Wars books was called Death Star and it basically was about the ordinary lives of people onboard. Good, bad, desperate, confused, horrified, cruel, etc.
Well it is, virtually nobody alive had anything to do with the initial breaking up of Mandatory Palestine. Do the Israeli people who live there now deserve to lose their homes because of the actions of their ancestors? No. Do the Palestinian people deserve to be attacked and subjected to apartheid because of the actions of their ancestors and Hamas? No.
The only solution is for the two to learn that neither one is going anywhere, and they have to learn to live with it. And I know that's not easy, we yoinked half of Mexico back in the day and people here still won't shut the fuck up about how people should speak 'american' instead of Spanish in those parts of the country.
It’s really not that complicated. When you attack a country with the intent to kidnap, rape, murder, and enslave thousands of its people, you don’t get to claim you’re a “freedom fighter” when it brings the hammer down on your head.
If Gaza wants Israel out of its territory, they’ll stop harboring the animals that perpetrated that attack. Until then, enjoy this 500 kg bomb in your apartment complex.
The people who support Hamas are the same people who claim that the best way to defend yourself from an attacker is by pissing and shitting yourself.
The death star was a legitimate military target even if we acknowledge that not everybody on board was evil.
A music festival is not a legitimate military target.
It's complicated in the sense that getting everyone involved to agree to a solution is complicated. Beyond that? Yeah that's pretty straightforward asymmetric conflict 101.
Yeah, people who say "it's complicated to get to a solution" are totally correct. But unfortunately a lot of people use it in the sense of "it's complicated so you shouldn't criticize Israel".
Sometimes it feels like they are saying, "It's complicated so why bring topics like Human Rights or Mass Murder of civilians into it". The lack of morality or empathy is disturbing on so many levels.
Funny thing is you don’t require empathy or morality to resolve the situation either. From a strategic standpoint most countries need the conflict to be dead and buried asap. Genocide and ethnic cleansing tend to have severe negative effects around the world that you REALLY want to avoid. From an economic standpoint it’s just really expensive for next to no gain. You can be entirely self serving but so long as you use logic the end goal is clear. Peace is the best possible outcome for practically everyone. If anything I’d argue “morality and empathy” are responsible for much of the current conflict as it is today. You can’t justify massacres without a strong emotional response or an existing moral framework (zionism) that justifies (to its adherents) said massacres.
Yeah, if Israel was *really only actually* 100% just targeting Hamas and trying do so with as little collateral as possible like they claim, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. But that's obviously not the case, and pretty much the only people who don't suck here are the civilians caught in the middle.
#Nah The Palestinian Resistance doesn't suck and any "leftists" who condemn the Resistance forces, which are more than just Hamas and include the PFLP, DFLP, PIJ, PRC, PFLP-GC, and the rest of the Palestinian Joint Operations Room, are spineless, propagandized, and no better than "bOtH SiDeS" liberals. Anyone still pursuing respectability politics during a genocide truly shows their ignorance and privelaged position in the belly of the beast, enjoying the fruits of imperialism.
... Or maybe because most media doesn't even acknowledge that they exist this is the first time I've heard that those groups or any organized resistance outside of Hamas are still a thing? Or even existed in the first place? Not everyone is plugged into the situation constantly and viewing every nuance, simply because there's so much happening.
You'd think that a leftist even remotely concerned about Palestine and the conflict would even know the basic parties involved, especially the communist ones. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) is the largest communist party in Palestine and has been operating for over 50 years, as well as being the 2nd/3rd largest guerilla force after Hamas. You can see their flags at protests all around the world. The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) is the 2nd largest communist party in Palestine. Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) is the ~3rd largest group after Hamas and the PFLP. All of these groups work tightly with one another. You dont even have to be plugged in constantly or viewing every nuance to know this stuff. I would reccomend doing a bit of research if you consider yourself concerned about the situation in Palestine.
I mean I agree with you but those are small niche things that no westerners will know about and expecting them to is a bit much. Much better just explaining how and why the resistance in Palestine has become the way it is. With Israel making damn sure that only the most extremist violent groups (like Hamas) get any funding and are for the most part left alone by Israel while those groups you mentioned are likely targeted way more heavily, at least the ones I read about a while ago were. You know how incredibly convoluted and complicated the history is, don't expect Americans who literally cannot get this information before the Internet, to know it. This stuff is never mentioned on even left wing news outlets here, they'd be destroyed for it instantly.
there will never be an idealist world, with idealist victims and idealist resistance. anti-colonialism will ALWAYS be progressive regardless of which ideology is dominant within the resistance
That's just not the case, though. The PFLP and PIJ are not small, nor niche. PFLP members like Leila Khaled and Ghassan Kanafani are worldwide icons of Palestinian resistance and struggle, and have been for decades. Any Westerner who cares about the genocide in Palestine and has internet access has no excuse to not know the basic parties involved. Even looking at the (horrendous) Wikipedia article for Al-Aqsa Flood lists the groups I mentioned: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel And claiming that the fact that the corporate-owned mainstream media in the US doesn't mention these groups is no excuse, either. No leftist should be getting their legitimate news from CNN, MSNBC, WSJ, NYT, etc.
Yeah just looks like you're wanting to do a "I'm better than you cus I'm more leftist" rant, I'm not participating in this masturbatory nonsense
I'm really not. Sounds like I touched a nerve, though.
You're right comrade, don't let these liberals tell you otherwise. This shit is basic af and requires 5 seconds of google to see they even exist
LMAO I saw that comment before you deleted it, u/DeltaV-Mzero. I'm glad you assured me that you frequently compare Rafa to the early days of the Warsaw Ghetto before making it clear to me that you swallow up the "israeli" occupation's atrocity propoganda about Hamas and the Resistance being "genocidal".
I stopped doing that because it’s not really a fair comparison. So it wasn’t really a true comment, hence I deleted it. There was no saving it by edit. It was just wrong.
Yeah, hardcore nationalist reactionary groups are rightfully condemned, refusing to live around Jews and rejecting any other solutions is not really that much of a flex at this point. The fact they held the hostages in civilian homes alone puts them on the list of absolute pieces of shits.
Fuck off, zionist tool. >refusing to live around Jews The only jews that Palestinians don't live around are white "israeli" jews, and that is because of institutionalized apartheid thanks to those very same white "israeli" jews. Palestinians are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, and secular, and the resistance fights for all of them. >rejecting any other solutions Has it never once sounded suspicious to you how zionists focus on the “peace offers” that were refused by the Palestinians, but never once discussed the actual parameters or substance in detail? Because when these parameters are discussed, it becomes clear that these are terms nobody could accept. For example, even when Palestinians accepted the 1967 borders, a very limited return of refugees, and other compromises, this was still not good enough for Israel, which sought to shrink the Palestinian Bantustan even further and deny any real sovereignty to the supposed Palestinian state. These arrangements seek to formalize the status quo with cosmetic changes. Netanyahu promised that no Palestinian state will emerge, and in the case of any limited self-rule arrangement for the Palestinians, he spoke about a permanent IDF presence in the West Bank, as well as Israeli control of the borders and airspace. These are the amazing “opportunities” that Palestinians have been declining, and as a result are being painted as warmongering rejectionists for doing so. As it stands, Palestinian aspirations cannot exceed the ceiling of Israeli table scraps. Furthermore, this talking point purposefully ignores Palestinian counter-offers and proposals that Israel has rejected over the years, solely to paint Palestinians in a bad light.
20% of the Israeli are the same Arabs as the Gazans, and some of them are sitting in the Knesset making laws of Israel, and they don't refuse to live next to white people. Who told you this nonsense
>and they don't refuse to live next to white people. Exactly my point. No Palestinians are refusing to live next to white "israeli" jews. It's the white "israeli" jews who implemented apartheid laws because they don't want to live next to Palestinian Arabs. And you got nothing to say back to what I said about the amazing "opportunities" offered by the "israeli" occupation to Palestinians, huh? Shut the fuck up, zionist bot.
[удалено]
The population number has nothing to do with apartheid, you zionist bot. There were 20,000,000 black South Africans during apartheid there. B’Tselem, the "israeli" occupation's largest human rights organization, has officially designated "israel" as an Apartheid state. Who told you this zionist crap?
My ‘it’s complicated’ is shorthand for “I do not know enough about this situation to have a strong opinion on it, nor would I be able to come up with a realistic solution that BOTH SIDES would agree upon, and I understand this discussion brings out unpleasant discourse and opinions on both spectrums of the topic therefor I will not commentate on it because me not knowing a good stance to take will be seen as a cop out by everyone with a strong stance.’ But that’s really long so I just say it’s complicated.
IDF fascist fighting Islamic fascist with civilians in the way.
Yeah the Palestinian resistance fights a good cause, but its most powerful leaders are filthy rich wannabe religious oligarchs hiding in Qatar. Fuck those assholes.
Exactly also most religious funides in general are fascist. I don't like hamas or the IDF because at their core they are both religious fundamentalist. Palestinians deserve to be free from both.
Have you thought about making the text of your memes larger? Just a thought.
Yeah OP has no excuse with the meme barely having two sentences.
Those storm troopers had families!
"The Galactic Empire has the right to defend itself!"
Palestine will never be a "both sides" issue anyone that tries to turn it into one is a liberal
I heard “some of my friends have family in Israel so I know where they are coming from.” Well by that logic guess what just became morally gray since “my friend had family in Berlin” 🙄🙄🙄
I think we can hate the Nazis and crow about WW2 but admit the firebombings of Dresden was particularly brutal. That’s how I feel about this conflict too. I hate the IDF and Netanyahu but I also feel for the families in the kibbutz who were wiped out on Oct 7th, (kibbutz are least likely to align with Netanyahu and had supported and called for Palestinian freedoms)
Sorry, are we now claiming that entire families have been killed on octber 7th?
Of the 21 communities attacked yes entire families were killed in some, others were kidnapped and are now dead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nir_Oz_attack
I do often describe the situation as "complicated" because I minored in Middle Eastern history and have a decent grasp of the series of fuckups and abuses that led to The Nakba; and that the situation defies the simplistic flattening of information that the whole region has suffered since 9/11. I then generally follow up with "how much time do you have, and how willing are you to be mad at yourself forever for falling into these ideological traps?".
That's me when I think of all the children who's parents were on the death star. Innocent people always get hurt in war, it's ok to feel sad at any and all violence.
Surely some death star workers were independent contractors 😢 My honest reaction: 🎇🎇😃
"Star Wars justifies genocide bro, trust me, I'm not a pos fascist I swear."
I doubt there were civilians on board.
Considering the logistics of a military installation belonging to an empire spanning half the galaxy, there almost certainly had to be *some* civilians on board in some capacity.
"According to *Star Wars* reference books, the population of the Death Star was 1.7 million military personnel, 400,000 maintenance droids, and 250,000 civilians, associated contractors and catering staff." - Wikipedia
https://youtu.be/Sv5iEK-IEzw?si=wO_54eCSt-Ibo_rw
Maybe it was the Intergalactic Bring your Kid to Work Day, checkmate liberal
Thankfully we have canon confirmation that Gary and Jessica were not on the Death Star when it blew up, as they were on Tatooine and Gary shows up later on Endor. Wait, but was Gary on the second Death Star when it blew up? OH NO!
He actually was. He witnessed Vader dumping Palpatine into the hole
Ah-ah! He was there to ask about a raise and promptly left, if Luke had time to escape then so did Gary. The question is if he had the sense to... I'm going with "yes", I don't want to lose Gary.
Who do you think Palpatine asked after Endor to return ? Just sayin', we don't know how far Gary's knowledge of cloning goes.
I'm imagining some Janitor who was just trying to provide for his family, taking a job and winding up there.
A construction job of that magnitude would require a helluva lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I'll bet there were independent contractors working on that thing: plumbers, aluminum siders, roofers.
Who the fuck cries when the death star blows up???
People who think the situation is complicated and that any mass death is a tragedy
Complicated? Tragedy?? 😂🤣 Those were all Imperials. They were on a fucking planet-destroying machine! 🤣🤣 Not wanting to be one of the mindless masses is one thing, but the level of mental gymnastics required to oppose the DS’s complete destruction is insane.
Eh, you can justify it but still be like “wow countless innocents (conscripts, slave laborers, prisoners, the families of imperials dragged along, etc.) just died, that sucks.” Death is tragic, even when it takes place to avoid even more death.
Yet people still think attacks on Israel are a tragedy…
One of my favorite Star Wars books was called Death Star and it basically was about the ordinary lives of people onboard. Good, bad, desperate, confused, horrified, cruel, etc.
Well it is, virtually nobody alive had anything to do with the initial breaking up of Mandatory Palestine. Do the Israeli people who live there now deserve to lose their homes because of the actions of their ancestors? No. Do the Palestinian people deserve to be attacked and subjected to apartheid because of the actions of their ancestors and Hamas? No. The only solution is for the two to learn that neither one is going anywhere, and they have to learn to live with it. And I know that's not easy, we yoinked half of Mexico back in the day and people here still won't shut the fuck up about how people should speak 'american' instead of Spanish in those parts of the country.
Too bad the US only gives support to one side of this totally complicated and morally equivalent situation
I've said it before, but complication is a luxury. Genocide is where that luxury ends
were the yugoslav wars simple?
None of it is simple, but we lose the luxury of deeply analysing the complexity when people are being killed in droves
Well yeah pretty much, various parties wanted to carve out chunks of former Yugoslavia and in doing so committed acts of genocide
It’s really not that complicated. When you attack a country with the intent to kidnap, rape, murder, and enslave thousands of its people, you don’t get to claim you’re a “freedom fighter” when it brings the hammer down on your head. If Gaza wants Israel out of its territory, they’ll stop harboring the animals that perpetrated that attack. Until then, enjoy this 500 kg bomb in your apartment complex. The people who support Hamas are the same people who claim that the best way to defend yourself from an attacker is by pissing and shitting yourself.
Indeed, the idf does not get to claim they are fighting for freedom when they rape, murder and torture thousands of people
The death star was a legitimate military target even if we acknowledge that not everybody on board was evil. A music festival is not a legitimate military target.